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What Pets Actually Want & Need | Dr. Karolina Westlund

My guest is Dr. Karolina Westlund, Ph.D., a professor of ethology at the University of Stockholm and an expert in animal emotions and behavior who uses science-based methods to improve the lives of animals in human care. We discuss the often overlooked needs of domesticated animals—primarily dogs and cats—and the things we can do to improve their well-being and our relationship with them. We cover how to interpret animal body language, the unique needs of specific dog breeds, and the needs of cats and birds. We also discuss the pros and cons of spaying and neutering and how weaning age impacts a pet’s attachment style. Whether you’re a pet owner, trainer, or simply an animal lover, this episode teaches you how specific pet behaviors are rooted in their immutable biology—and the simple things you can do to vastly improve your pets’ health and well-being, as well as your relationship with them. Read the episode show notes: https://go.hubermanlab.com/mBbm5nJ *Thank you to our sponsors* AG1: ⁠https://drinkag1.com.hubermn Our Place: ⁠https://fromourplace.com/huberman Eight Sleep: ⁠https://eightsleep.com/huberman Joovv: ⁠https://joovv.com/huberman Function: ⁠https://functionhealth.com/huberman *Follow Huberman Lab* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hubermanlab X: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://www.hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter *Dr. Karolina Westlund* Website: https://illis.se/en Online courses: https://illis.se/en/courses-menu Blog: https://illis.se/en/blog Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/illis.se LinkedIn: https://se.linkedin.com/in/karolina-westlund-friman *Timestamps* 00:00:00 Karolina Westlund 00:02:19 Students & Animal Species; Horses 00:06:36 Dog Breeds & Interaction, Predatory Sequence, Smell, Domestication 00:12:42 Sponsors: Our Place & Eight Sleep 00:16:09 Dog Breeds & Domestication, Bulldogs 00:20:16 Core Affect Space, Petting, Tool: Consent Test; Polyvagal Theory 00:27:53 Space, Dominance, Resources, Leash Walking; Dog-Owner Training 00:37:13 Tail Wagging & Interpreting Body Signals, Facial Expressions 00:43:24 Play Bow, Tool: MARS & Playing; Dogs & Empathy 00:48:39 Sponsors: AG1 & Joovv 00:51:46 Fairness, Social Groups; Anthropomorphism vs Anthropodenial 00:57:45 Cats, Hunting, Bring Gifts?, Interaction & Socialization 01:03:56 Scent & Territorial Marking; Covering Waste, Tool: Litter Box Placement 01:08:17 “Pee Mail” & Communication; Wolves, Domestication 01:11:54 Zoos, Conservation; Tigers 01:18:53 Sponsor: Function 01:20:41 Stalking; Birds, Parrots 01:25:22 Nose Work, Wildlife Chasing, Tool: Dog Feeding & Challenge 01:31:01 Understanding & Choosing Dog for Your Lifestyle, Tool: Introducing Cats 01:34:27 Recognizing Self vs Other, Inbreeding Avoidance, Imprinting 01:40:51 Imprinting vs Attachment Bonds; Dogs, Weaning & Secure Attachment 01:48:36 Spaying & Neutering, Hormones, Tool: Neutering Alternatives 01:57:07 Humans as Animals, Tools, Cultural Learning 02:02:47 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures: https://www.hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

Andrew HubermanhostKarolina Westlundguest
Apr 28, 20252h 5mWatch on YouTube ↗

CHAPTERS

  1. 0:00 – 4:20

    Setting the Stage: Ethology, Pets, and Misconceptions

    Andrew Huberman introduces Dr. Karolina Westlund, an ethologist specializing in animal behavior and welfare. They lay out the episode’s central theme: using evolutionary biology and ethology—not folk wisdom—to understand what pets actually need. They preview topics like dog breed differences, wolves, cats’ misunderstood social lives, and how science can resolve debates about training and welfare.

  2. 4:20 – 10:40

    Inside a Horse’s Mind and Why Modern Horse-Keeping Fails Them

    Using horses as a case study, Dr. Westlund explains how prey animals experience the world and how typical stabling practices clash with their evolved needs. She highlights problems like early weaning, solitary housing, and compressed feeding schedules, arguing that many horses live particularly compromised lives in captivity compared to how they evolved to live.

  3. 10:40 – 26:00

    Dog Senses and the Predatory Sequence as a Breed Map

    The conversation shifts to dogs, their reliance on smell, and the enormous behavioral variation across breeds. Dr. Westlund introduces the wolf predatory sequence and shows how selective breeding carved out specialized roles—sniffers, pointers, chasers, grabbers, killers, and ‘just eaters’—that still drive dogs’ needs today.

  4. 26:00 – 38:00

    Bulldogs, Temperament, and What Dogs Need to Feel Safe

    Huberman recounts the history and behavior of his bulldog, Costello, to explore breed history, pain tolerance, and temperament. This leads into a broader discussion of what ‘feeling safe’ means for animals, and how to conceptualize emotional states across species using the core affect framework.

  5. 38:00 – 52:00

    Touch, Consent, and Co-Regulation: How to Physically Interact with Pets

    They dive into how tactile interactions can either soothe or stress animals, depending on how they’re done. Dr. Westlund critiques the human tendency to hug and pat quickly, advocates for consent testing, and describes how slow stroking combined with a calm human state can help animals relax by co-regulation.

  6. 52:00 – 1:10:00

    Dominance Myths, Leadership, and Human–Dog Relationships

    Addressing popular dog-training narratives, Dr. Westlund unpacks the ethological definition of dominance and contrasts it with sociological and pop-culture versions. She argues that most owner–dog interactions labeled ‘dominance’ are misinterpretations and that humans should instead focus on learning theory, resource control, and attachment rather than rigid hierarchy models.

  7. 1:10:00 – 1:30:00

    Tail Wags, Faces, and Play: How Dogs and Others Communicate

    They explore how dogs and other animals communicate emotional states through tails, faces, and play patterns. Dr. Westlund explains lateralized tail wags, why humans misread dog facial expressions, and how to distinguish play from aggression using the MARS framework (meta-signals, activity shifts, role reversals, self-handicapping).

  8. 1:30:00 – 1:42:00

    Empathy, Fairness, and Anthropomorphism vs. Anthropodenial

    Huberman and Westlund discuss evidence for empathy and fairness in animals, including the famous capuchin monkey ‘cucumber vs. grape’ study. They tackle the twin errors of over-anthropomorphizing animals and denying commonalities (anthropodenial), arguing that the truth lies in recognizing both species differences and shared emotional/processing architecture.

  9. 1:42:00 – 1:58:00

    Understanding Cats: Solitary Hunters, Socialization, and Scent Worlds

    The focus turns to domestic cats—their evolutionary background as solitary hunters, how early handling shapes their adult sociability, and what their hallmark behaviors actually mean. Dr. Westlund clarifies the role of scent marking, prey-return behavior, litter-box placement, and why multi-cat feeding setups often create hidden stress.

  10. 1:58:00 – 2:06:00

    Waste, Scent-Mark Kicking, and Dogs’ ‘Social Media’

    They discuss elimination behaviors across species: why cats bury waste, why dogs kick after defecating, and how scent functions as a rich information channel. Huberman shares observations of his bulldog’s intense interest in peeing on everything, which Dr. Westlund reframes as essential olfactory communication, not trivial quirk.

  11. 2:06:00 – 2:22:00

    Domestication, Zoos, and the Costs of Captivity

    The discussion zooms out to domestication and captivity. Dr. Westlund describes how dogs likely self-domesticated by hanging around human settlements and contrasts this with more coercive forms of captivity, such as traditional zoos. They examine modern zoos’ conservation roles, species that fare poorly (polar bears), and a chilling case of a tiger targeting specific tormentors.

  12. 2:22:00 – 2:31:00

    Birds, Parrots, and the Need to Forage and Destroy

    Huberman’s childhood experience with parrots leads to a discussion about birds’ cognitive needs and how foraging behaviors are often misdirected in captivity. Dr. Westlund explains that when we spoon-feed animals from bowls, we deprive them of their evolved food-acquisition behaviors, leading to destructive substitutions.

  13. 2:31:00 – 2:46:00

    Enrichment for Dogs: Nose Work, Feeding Games, and Matching Jobs

    Returning to dogs, they dig into practical enrichment strategies: nose work as therapy, scatter feeding, puzzle feeding, and tailoring activities to each dog’s predatory niche. Dr. Westlund explains preliminary research suggesting nose work can regulate arousal and improve mood, and offers simple at-home adaptations.

  14. 2:46:00 – 2:58:00

    Do Dogs Like Cities? Social Encounters, Stress, and Careful Introductions

    They question whether dogs truly thrive in urban settings and discuss the stress of constant sensory bombardment and strangers. Dr. Westlund contrasts dogs’ unusual tolerance for strangers with other species, and she details slow, multi-sensory introduction protocols—especially for cats—to prevent conflict when adding new animals to a household.

  15. 2:58:00 – 3:15:00

    Species Recognition, Imprinting, and Attachment in Dogs and Humans

    Huberman raises the puzzle of how animals innately know self vs. other species for mating, prompting a deep dive into sexual and filial imprinting. Dr. Westlund clarifies that dogs form attachment bonds—not classical imprinting—with humans, and that these bonds can be secure or insecure, paralleling human infant attachment styles.

  16. 3:15:00 – 3:40:00

    Puppy Weaning, Socialization, and the Neutering Controversy

    They tackle two highly practical and controversial issues: optimal weaning age and neutering. Dr. Westlund argues that common eight-week weaning is likely too early from a welfare perspective and explains how attachment quality may matter more than hyper-structured socialization checklists. They also revisit neutering, discussing cultural differences, vasectomy alternatives, and the emerging data on behavioral and health effects.

  17. 3:40:00

    Humans as Animals, Cultural Learning, and Final Reflections

    In closing, they reflect on humans as one animal species among many, distinguished by our ability to accumulate and transmit culture over millennia. Dr. Westlund emphasizes that while species differ in perception and ecology, emotional processing and learning mechanisms are broadly shared, and we should use that understanding to design better lives for animals and ourselves.

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