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What Pets Actually Want & Need | Dr. Karolina Westlund

My guest is Dr. Karolina Westlund, Ph.D., a professor of ethology at the University of Stockholm and an expert in animal emotions and behavior who uses science-based methods to improve the lives of animals in human care. We discuss the often overlooked needs of domesticated animals—primarily dogs and cats—and the things we can do to improve their well-being and our relationship with them. We cover how to interpret animal body language, the unique needs of specific dog breeds, and the needs of cats and birds. We also discuss the pros and cons of spaying and neutering and how weaning age impacts a pet’s attachment style. Whether you’re a pet owner, trainer, or simply an animal lover, this episode teaches you how specific pet behaviors are rooted in their immutable biology—and the simple things you can do to vastly improve your pets’ health and well-being, as well as your relationship with them. Read the episode show notes: https://go.hubermanlab.com/mBbm5nJ *Thank you to our sponsors* AG1: ⁠https://drinkag1.com.hubermn Our Place: ⁠https://fromourplace.com/huberman Eight Sleep: ⁠https://eightsleep.com/huberman Joovv: ⁠https://joovv.com/huberman Function: ⁠https://functionhealth.com/huberman *Follow Huberman Lab* Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/hubermanlab Threads: https://www.threads.net/@hubermanlab X: https://twitter.com/hubermanlab Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/hubermanlab TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@hubermanlab LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-huberman Website: https://www.hubermanlab.com Newsletter: https://www.hubermanlab.com/newsletter *Dr. Karolina Westlund* Website: https://illis.se/en Online courses: https://illis.se/en/courses-menu Blog: https://illis.se/en/blog Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/illis.se LinkedIn: https://se.linkedin.com/in/karolina-westlund-friman *Timestamps* 00:00:00 Karolina Westlund 00:02:19 Students & Animal Species; Horses 00:06:36 Dog Breeds & Interaction, Predatory Sequence, Smell, Domestication 00:12:42 Sponsors: Our Place & Eight Sleep 00:16:09 Dog Breeds & Domestication, Bulldogs 00:20:16 Core Affect Space, Petting, Tool: Consent Test; Polyvagal Theory 00:27:53 Space, Dominance, Resources, Leash Walking; Dog-Owner Training 00:37:13 Tail Wagging & Interpreting Body Signals, Facial Expressions 00:43:24 Play Bow, Tool: MARS & Playing; Dogs & Empathy 00:48:39 Sponsors: AG1 & Joovv 00:51:46 Fairness, Social Groups; Anthropomorphism vs Anthropodenial 00:57:45 Cats, Hunting, Bring Gifts?, Interaction & Socialization 01:03:56 Scent & Territorial Marking; Covering Waste, Tool: Litter Box Placement 01:08:17 “Pee Mail” & Communication; Wolves, Domestication 01:11:54 Zoos, Conservation; Tigers 01:18:53 Sponsor: Function 01:20:41 Stalking; Birds, Parrots 01:25:22 Nose Work, Wildlife Chasing, Tool: Dog Feeding & Challenge 01:31:01 Understanding & Choosing Dog for Your Lifestyle, Tool: Introducing Cats 01:34:27 Recognizing Self vs Other, Inbreeding Avoidance, Imprinting 01:40:51 Imprinting vs Attachment Bonds; Dogs, Weaning & Secure Attachment 01:48:36 Spaying & Neutering, Hormones, Tool: Neutering Alternatives 01:57:07 Humans as Animals, Tools, Cultural Learning 02:02:47 Zero-Cost Support, YouTube, Spotify & Apple Follow & Reviews, Sponsors, YouTube Feedback, Protocols Book, Social Media, Neural Network Newsletter Disclaimer & Disclosures: https://www.hubermanlab.com/disclaimer

Andrew HubermanhostKarolina Westlundguest
Apr 27, 20252h 5mWatch on YouTube ↗

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Science-Based Secrets to Truly Understand What Your Pets Need Most

  1. Andrew Huberman interviews animal ethologist Dr. Karolina Westlund about what dogs, cats, horses, and other animals actually need for mental and physical wellbeing, based on ethology and neuroscience rather than popular myth. They examine how species evolved to live in the wild, then map those needs onto modern homes, cities, and farms to reveal common welfare mistakes. Dr. Westlund explains how predatory and social behavior sequences were selectively bred into different dog types, how cats’ solitary-hunter origins shape their needs, and why horses often have some of the worst captive lives. They also cover emotion models, attachment, dominance misunderstandings, training, and how to design daily routines that satisfy animals’ drives while improving human–animal relationships.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

5 ideas

Design Your Dog’s Life Around Its Predatory Sequence Niche

Modern dog breeds were sculpted by selectively amplifying specific steps in the wolf hunting sequence: orient/sniff → eye/stalk → chase → grab/retrieve → kill → dissect → eat. Hounds are nose specialists, pointers freeze and point, border collies eye and stalk, greyhounds just chase, retrievers love grabbing and carrying, terriers are efficient killers/rats, livestock guardians mostly just sniff and watch, and many toy breeds skip most of the sequence. To improve welfare, match enrichment to where your dog sits on this spectrum: nose work and scent games for all; controlled chasing for sighthounds; tug and carry games for retrievers; shreddable objects for “dissectors” like poodles; and lower-intensity work for lap dogs that simply want proximity.

Aim for ‘Calm and Safe’: Low-Arousal, Positive-Emotion States

Dr. Westlund uses the core affect model (valence × arousal) to explain emotional life. The quadrant we want most often is low arousal + positive valence: relaxed, safe, socially engaged. To get there, first reduce negative high-arousal states (fear, aggression, constant vigilance) by removing or buffering threats, then reduce low-arousal negative states (boredom, depression) by adding meaningful stimulation that lets animals perform species-typical behavior, like foraging, problem-solving, and play. Think of exercise, nose work, and safe social contact as tools to nudge animals from fear or apathy into either exploratory joy (high-arousal positive) or contented rest (low-arousal positive).

Use Consent-Based, Slow Touch Instead of Human-Style Hugging

Humans are primates and tend to hug and pat quickly, especially on the top of the head—many non-primates experience that as restraint or threat, not affection. Dr. Westlund advises using a simple ‘consent test’: offer gentle strokes in typically preferred areas (side of neck, upper chest, base of tail for many dogs; withers and rump for horses), then stop and see if the animal reinitiates contact (leans in, nudges, shifts the body part toward you) or moves away. Studies indicate most dogs dislike rapid, percussive patting and respond far better to slow, calm strokes, especially when the human themself is in a relaxed state (co-regulation through polyvagal mechanisms).

Rethink Dominance: Priority of Resources, Not Owner–Dog Power Struggles

In ethology, dominance simply means priority of access to scarce resources within stable groups, not ‘being the boss’ or just walking in front. Many common training rules—dog must eat after you, walk behind you, never initiate contact—are framed as dominance but can be more accurately explained as learned contingencies (the dog avoids being yanked, etc.) or fear/avoidance, not status. Dogs do form linear dominance hierarchies with other dogs around specific resources, and there are distinct social roles like leaders (who know where to go) and controllers (who initiate activity changes), but humans are not neatly part of these dog–dog hierarchies. Focusing on clarity, predictability, and secure attachment is more productive than trying to ‘dominate’ your dog.

Respect Species Differences: Cats Are Solitary Hunters, Not Small Dogs

House cats evolved as solitary hunters that form loose aggregations, not tight, cooperative packs. They hunt and generally prefer to eat alone, which means multi-cat households should avoid feeding all cats side-by-side from a single station. Early-life handling is critical: kittens handled about an hour a day between weeks 2–8 tend to become very social lap cats; those handled less often become more aloof—but not necessarily fearful. Cat head-butting is mainly scent marking to blend group odor, and bringing prey home reflects bringing food to a safe base, not gifting. Litter boxes should be placed away from food, with urine marking around edges of a territory often signaling territorial/outer-boundary marking, while random indoor elimination may indicate medical or litter-box aversion issues.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

We systematically, intentionally bred for specific pieces of the wolf hunting sequence in different dog breeds. To give dogs a good life, we should understand which piece we bred them for.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

In our fear of anthropomorphism, we’ve fallen into anthropodenial—pretending animals have nothing in common with us, when in fact we share a lot.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

I would not label most of what people call ‘dominance’ between humans and dogs as dominance at all. As an ethologist, dominance is simply priority of access to resources.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

Dogs don’t imprint on humans the way goslings imprint on Konrad Lorenz—they form attachment bonds that can be secure or insecure, just like human infants.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

If you don’t let animals show the behaviors they evolved to perform—like foraging or hunting—they will redirect that energy into problem behaviors instead.

Dr. Karolina Westlund

Ethology and species-typical behavior in pets (dogs, cats, horses, parrots)Dog breed differences via the predatory/hunting sequenceAnimal emotions, core affect, arousal, and safety (polyvagal, attachment)Human misconceptions about dominance, leadership, and trainingReading animal communication: tail wags, facial expressions, scent, playCat-specific needs: solitary hunting, socialization, litter, scent markingDomestication, welfare in captivity (zoos, cities), and neutering choices

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