What Pets Actually Want & Need | Dr. Karolina Westlund

1. 0:00 – 2:19

   Karolina Westlund

   1. AHAndrew Huberman0:00

      Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Dr. Carolina Westlund. Dr. Carolina Westlund is an animal ethologist and expert in animal behavior. Dr. Westlund and I discuss the relationship between humans and domesticated animals, with a focus on the evidence-based protocols for optimizing the mental and physical health of our pets. Dr. Westlund explains the best way to interact with our animals. Now, we may assume that the way we pet our animals and exercise them and feed them makes them truly happy, but as she points out, many of the things that people assume turn out to be false when it comes to our pets and their fundamental drives. She teaches us the very basic but powerful things that we can do to satisfy those drives, both for the animals' sake, of course, and to better our relationship with them. We also discuss the unique neurological and physiological requirements of different dog breeds. It's a fascinating conversation that stems from their lineage from wolves and will tell you whether or not your particular breed, even if it's a mutt, should be exercised in a particular way, whether or not it needs additional forms of stimulation that you're not currently giving it, and so on. And because we both realize there are also cat owners out there too, we discuss the often misunderstood communication signals and social needs of cats. As you may know, there is a tremendous amount of debate out there about the best training and practices for taking care of our dogs and other animals, and so much of that is grounded in speculation and training outcomes, which of course are important. The conversation today with Dr. Westlund approaches animal health and welfare through the lens of ethology and the species that our pets evolved from to provide actionable protocols that are grounded in science and that you can implement right away to improve your pet's wellbeing. So if you're a pet owner, this episode is going to be of immense value to you. If you're not a pet owner, you'll still learn a ton about animal biology and psychology, including yours. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero-cost-to-consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, this episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Carolina Westlund.

2. 2:19 – 6:36

   Students & Animal Species; Horses

   1. AHAndrew Huberman2:19

      Dr. Carolina Westlund, welcome.

   2. KWKarolina Westlund2:21

      Thank you.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman2:22

      I'm super excited for this conversation.

   4. KWKarolina Westlund2:24

      Yeah. Me too.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman2:25

      I can barely contain myself. I think we have so much to learn from animals, and I think we have so much to learn from our relationship to animals. I also believe that we have all sorts of ideas about what animals experience, what they think about us, the relationship that we think we have with them.

   6. KWKarolina Westlund2:42

      Oh, yeah.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman2:44

      Today, you're going to set the record straight.

   8. KWKarolina Westlund2:46

      (laughs)

   9. AHAndrew Huberman2:47

      (laughs) To start off, could you just briefly list off some of the species of animals that your students have worked with and studied?

   10. KWKarolina Westlund2:55

       Most of my students are, like, guardians of animals, so they're like dog owners or horse trainers, or they might be veterinarians. Some of them work, uh, in a zoo as a, a zookeeper or animal trainer, and so on. So, my students are really diverse, and their, their knowledge levels is also really diverse, from the sort of person who has their first dog at the age of 40 to somebody who's been training animals for 30 years.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman3:25

       I grew up around a few horse people.

   12. KWKarolina Westlund3:27

       Ah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman3:28

       Uh, my first girlfriend had a horse, and it was remarkable to me to see and to, um, get some just external understanding of the relationship between human and animal through observing that.

   14. KWKarolina Westlund3:43

       Mm-hmm.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman3:43

       I think of, of all the relationships between animals and humans, the horse-human relationship seems to be the one where there's the most amount of physical contact, right? You ride a horse. Um, uh, you learn to read the horse's, uh, intentions. It learns to read yours through the subtle, you know, squeezing of the legs or g- or kicking, or, or, uh, you know, not kicking hard, but you know, um, like just like a nudge of the heel, um, just a slight tug on the reins. It's really remarkable. Um, what does the horse experience the world as? We, I've, I've heard before that, you know, they, they sort of have these orbs of, of awareness around them and that they're paying attention to things on the horizon, that they're, um, clearly paying attention to things very up close to their body. But if you were to put us into the mind of a horse, uh, as best you can, how does the horse experience the world as an wild horse and with a rider on its back trying to steer it in a particular direction at a particular speed?

   16. KWKarolina Westlund4:47

       As an ethologist, I, I tend to take a step back and look at sort of, uh, the, the species in general. And horses are prey animals. They are also herd animals. And I think that, um, w- we, as humans, we tend to not really understand how different animal species can be from ourselves in how they perceive the world and what's important to them. Uh, so horses being prey animals means that they're usually quite vigilant, so they're paying a lot of attention to the world. And they have this, the vis- their visual field is really big, so they can sort of see what's happening back there. The issue I have with how we raise and keep horses today, as an ethologist and sort of looking at how animals live their lives in the wild, is that we keep them in a way that sort of challenges them in several aspects of that. So we tend to separate them quite early from their mom, even though in the wild they would stay for a very long time. So I think some of the concerns that I have as an ethologist with how we raise horses is the, the, uh, the early weaning that we sometimes see and also single housing for a species that's...... um, an aggregating species, and also that they, uh, in the wild, they will forage up to 16 hours a day, and when we bring them into captivity, we typically feed them in the way that promotes very quick eating, you know, for just a fraction of that time. And that can then lead to problem behavior. So, so for me, I think horses are probably one of the captive animal species where, for many individual horses, the type of life that we're offering is really not

3. 6:36 – 12:42

   Dog Breeds & Interaction, Predatory Sequence, Smell, Domestication

   1. KWKarolina Westlund6:36

      that great.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman6:37

      Interesting. Dogs, I know, are very, uh, smell-oriented.

   3. KWKarolina Westlund6:43

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman6:44

      They experience the world, um, perhaps largely, but certainly, uh, quite a bit through their noses. Um, they can sense odor at a distance.

   5. KWKarolina Westlund6:55

      Yeah.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman6:55

      And certainly up close, they like to get their nose right into things-

   7. KWKarolina Westlund6:57

      Yeah, yeah.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman6:58

      ... and, and, and sniff, get deep sniffs, um, and they're always collecting information with their noses. There's a huge range of dog breeds, and I think any discussion about dogs requires that we, uh, first kind of separate out some of the major differences, um, at least in terms of the, the purebred versions of them.

   9. KWKarolina Westlund7:16

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman7:17

       When I see a Mastiff versus a Chihuahua, uh, versus a, like a Scenthound, uh, I'm looking at, to me, what appear to be very different animals. Is it true that certain dogs rely on their sense of smell far more than others, and if so, um, do the ones that rely on their, on their nose, uh, just not pay attention to what they're looking at unless y- you insist? I mean, the, the other version of this question is, how should we interact with dogs differently depending on what breed of dog they are?

   11. KWKarolina Westlund7:49

       Yeah. So I think, I can't really answer the first part of that question. I don't know the extent to which, uh, different dog breeds, uh, their, their sensory capabilities, how, how much that differs between different dog breeds. However, um, how to interact with different dog breeds, I think that's really, a really interesting question, because so, during the process of domestication and, and in, in just the last couple of hundred years really, we started selecting for different capabilities in the different dog, um, dogs that, that we needed for different tasks essentially. So, if we look at a, a wolf hunting sequence, what they'll do is they'll do an orient response where they, they sniff and they, they're sort of looking for a, uh, prey, and then they will do some eyeing and stalking behavior, so they'll focus and they'll do stalking, and then they'll do chasing, and then they'll do a grab bite, a killing bite, then th- they'll dissect, and then they'll eat the prey. So, we have this whole predatory sequence that we see in wolves, and what happened during the process of domestication was that we sort of selected for certain aspects of that sequence in different breeds, so we'll have the, the sniffers, the hounds that are really great at... And I, I guess maybe that answers your first question. I think that probably all dog breeds enjoy sniffing. It's one of the big things that people are exploring a lot new now is, is nose work. But anyway, back to, to the, this process of domestication, that... And then we had the, um, uh, the, the pointers who are, who, who sort of... We have really, um, uh, selected for that behavior, you know, in, in the, in a litter of puppies, we would select the one that was m- the most prone to do that behavior, and so over generations, we really, um, sculpted that, that, uh, niche, so to speak. So a, a, a pointer will typically not proceed to the n- to the next behavior of the predatory sequence. And then we have like the Border Collies who might do some chasing, uh, or some, some, um, eyeing and stalking and a little bit of chase, but ideally no grabbing, and we have the pure chasers, the Greyhounds for instance, and then we have the, the grabbers, the, uh, the retrievers, and then we have the killers, um, um, the Terriers, yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman10:22

       People I- I'm assuming were anticipating you to say the Pit Bulls or the Dobermans, but, uh, anyone that's owned a Terrier-

   13. KWKarolina Westlund10:30

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman10:30

       ... will know that they are great, uh, ratting dogs.

   15. KWKarolina Westlund10:33

       They, they, they, they were bred to, to, uh, exterminate, uh, small like rodents and stuff.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman10:39

       Yeah. Anyone who's seen a Westie, those cute little, uh, West Highland Terriers, the little white ones, they're real cute. If, if one of those hears or senses a rodent in the wall-

   17. KWKarolina Westlund10:48

       Mm-hmm.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman10:49

       ... I've seen one stalk one for several days. It will move along, we use to call it rat TV.

   19. KWKarolina Westlund10:54

       Yeah. (laughs)

   20. AHAndrew Huberman10:55

       The, um, Westie will sense where... When and where the rodent is there with an absolute fixation-

   21. KWKarolina Westlund11:01

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman11:01

       ... and if there's any way to get into that wall and kill that rodent-

   23. KWKarolina Westlund11:04

       Mm.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman11:04

       ... it's coming out with that rodent in its mouth.

   25. KWKarolina Westlund11:06

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman11:06

       It's remarkable.

   27. KWKarolina Westlund11:07

       Yeah.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman11:07

       The amount of dedication is just striking, and it's all about killing that-

   29. KWKarolina Westlund11:12

       Yeah, yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman11:12

       ... rat, yeah.
4. 12:42 – 16:09

   Sponsors: Our Place & Eight Sleep

   1. KWKarolina Westlund12:42

      I think.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman12:43

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5. 16:09 – 20:16

   Dog Breeds & Domestication, Bulldogs

   1. AHAndrew Huberman16:09

      Pod 4 Ultra. That's a beautiful and, to me, completely novel description of the breakdown of different breeds.

   2. KWKarolina Westlund16:16

      Oh.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman16:16

      Um, not according to the dosing of wolf versus mastiff genes, which is what some of the more reductionist, um, research papers on this really do. They have these charts. Uh, we'll provide a link to one that was published in Science Magazine about 10 years back that had this, sort of, dosing of mastiff, um, genes versus, uh, wolf genes. And, um, what you just described beautifully breaks down what one observes if you go to a dog park or the beach.

   4. KWKarolina Westlund16:46

      Yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman16:46

      My bulldog mastiff, Costello, he was, he was a mudded bulldog, so I always say, um, you know, no underbite. So it wasn't this or the outhouse out, it was this, right? So, uh, a proper bulldog, um, before they inbred them so much-

   6. KWKarolina Westlund16:59

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman16:59

      ... that they have the underbite and the short snout, the brachycephalic, the breathing issues.

   8. KWKarolina Westlund17:03

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman17:04

      But he, um, neither stalked nor, uh, chased.

   10. KWKarolina Westlund17:10

       Mm-hmm.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman17:10

       Nor was he interested in killing anything. He didn't have that, um, sense to try and harm.

   12. KWKarolina Westlund17:16

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman17:16

       Uh, but he certainly liked to consume.

   14. KWKarolina Westlund17:18

       (laughs)

   15. AHAndrew Huberman17:18

       So, he was at the end of that behavioral description.

   16. KWKarolina Westlund17:20

       Yeah.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman17:21

       Um, and I think-

   18. KWKarolina Westlund17:22

       And what, what were they bred for?

   19. AHAndrew Huberman17:23

       So, um, I'll try and not take up too much time on this one.

   20. KWKarolina Westlund17:27

       Okay.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman17:27

       Uh, 'cause I wanna learn from you. The original bulldog line-

   22. KWKarolina Westlund17:30

       Mm-hmm.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman17:31

       ... um, was a cross between a mastiff, uh, something like a mastiff.

   24. KWKarolina Westlund17:35

       Mm-hmm.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman17:35

       A strong, large, uh, high pain tolerance.

   26. KWKarolina Westlund17:39

       Mm-hmm.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman17:39

       Um, and a pug, short snout.

   28. KWKarolina Westlund17:43

       Mm-hmm.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman17:43

       And the, the gene cross there, and obviously the dog geneticists weren't thinking about specific genes, they were thinking about traits.

   30. KWKarolina Westlund17:48

       Mm-hmm.
6. 20:16 – 27:53

   Core Affect Space, Petting, Tool: Consent Test; Polyvagal Theory

   1. AHAndrew Huberman20:16

      animals.

   2. KWKarolina Westlund20:17

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AHAndrew Huberman20:17

      What does a dog need in order to feel calm and safe?

   4. KWKarolina Westlund20:22

      Great question. Um, yeah. So, in order to feel calm and safe, um, I think we, perhaps we should go to the core affect space.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman20:37

      Okay.

   6. KWKarolina Westlund20:37

      Which I think is one of the three emotional models that I find very, very useful in understanding, uh, providing like, a, a good environment for animals so that they can thrive, really. So, the core affect space is, is one way of, of depicting or conceptualizing emotions where we have, like, valence on the X axis, so how pleasant or unpleasant something is, and we have arousal on the Y axis. So, what you're asking is how can we make animals, and I'm not just, not just dogs, but any species, how can we put them in quadrant two of that core affect space, essentially? So, uh, low arousal and pleasant, so where they're relaxed and they're feeling safe and they're, they're sort of engaging socially with others and being sort of at ease, if you will. So, how do we get there? And I think that some of the things to consider is in the absence of negative emotions. So, if, again, if we're in the core affect space, in the, in the quadrant four, with the high arousal, unpleasant states, we'll find things like fear, uh, aggression. So, helping reduce that will sort of automatically help animals move to the right in the matrix. And in the lower quadrant three, with the unpleasant low arousal state, where animals tend to end up if they're sort of bored or depressed, is engaging them, providing an environment that's stimulating that they can sort of do interesting things and, to help them move into the, uh, to the right side of the core affect space. Um, and also, uh, to the, to the top, in that, um, the quadrant one is the high arousal, pleasant state, but that, that would be, like, seeking or foraging behavior, exploration, play, sex. Um, but as to your question, how do we get into, uh, quadrant two with, with feeling safe and sort of that warm, fuzzy feeling? Um, so some of the things to do might be to, uh, if the animal enjoys it, coming from you, and they often have to know you in order to really appreciate it, is like, tactile stimulation, so petting, essentially. Something that might interfere is that we primates, we humans are primates and we're huggers. We tend to g- sort of go like this when we want to interact with an animal that we really like. And to many animals, this is restraint and really scary. Uh, and so, uh, the type of body contact, well, that we offer to animals that we should consider whether they really enjoy it or not, whether they tolerate it or enjoy it. And one way of doing that is to offer a consent test. So, you might, you might offer your hand and scratch a little bit, ideally in a place that the animal really enjoys. So, most dogs don't enjoy having a hand on top of their head, but rather perhaps here.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman23:45

      On their neck.

   8. KWKarolina Westlund23:46

      Or, or, or, or the upper chest, sort of.

   9. AHAndrew Huberman23:48

      Mm-hmm.

   10. KWKarolina Westlund23:48

       Yeah. So, you might do that for a few seconds, and then you remove your hand to see does the animal enjoy this and will they then reinitiate that contact or not? Or will they move away? And I have, I have this issue with my cat now that he is not very... (laughs) He doesn't all- uh, sort of enjoy petting as much as I do petting him. So, I have to be really mindful that I, I really offer him the chance to say, "No, thanks."

   11. AHAndrew Huberman24:15

       So we, um, might consider just touching the animal as a, you're calling it a consent test, like, as a-

   12. KWKarolina Westlund24:20

       Yeah.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman24:20

       ... as a test. And then if they move toward you, then, uh, it w- what is the pattern of, of, uh, tactile stimulation that's, that dogs like? I've been reading up on this a little bit, and somebody, um, ran a, an experiment that I think is kind of interesting, uh, describing the differences between rates of petting, and it basically, the conclusion was that, uh, essentially they claim that all dogs, um, are averse to very rapid touch.

   14. KWKarolina Westlund24:46

       Oh.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman24:47

       And but that people tend to pat quickly, um, pet quickly.

   16. KWKarolina Westlund24:50

       Yeah.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman24:50

       And they, they showed a beautiful example of s- just if one just deliberately strokes the animal very slowly-

   18. KWKarolina Westlund24:57

       Mm-hmm.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman24:58

       ... the animal's, uh, eyelids just start to hood.

   20. KWKarolina Westlund25:01

       Okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman25:01

       And you basically just, um, diffuse the tension very quickly.

   22. KWKarolina Westlund25:05

       Yeah. Interesting.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman25:05

       Which I f- I think is interesting that, you know, as humans we think, "Oh, we wanna pat the dog on its head," and for some reason we associate patting with fast patting.

   24. KWKarolina Westlund25:13

       Yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman25:13

       Or petting as a, as a quick process.

   26. KWKarolina Westlund25:16

       Yeah. Yeah.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman25:16

       You're gonna scratch and pet this animal, where it very well could be that all the dogs out there are just dying for some really nice slow strokes.

   28. KWKarolina Westlund25:23

       Yeah, and I also think that that nice slow stroke, if you're sort of in a calm, emotional state yourself, then we might tap into another interesting, uh, emotion theory, which is the polyvagal theory, and this concept of co-regulation. So if you're really calm and relaxed, then you're sort of sending out these cues, these, um, uh, subtle cues that other individuals are reading and picking up on. And it seems that we do that with vis-à-vis also our dogs, and, uh, certainly also horses it seems. So that just being calm and relaxed yourself can really help relax the dog. And what you say about the fast petting or patting really makes sense to me. I know there is one study in horses that show that, that if you pat a horse, many horses find that aversive. So, in other words, it's something that they'll work to avoid, and yet that is often how we reinfor- how we try to reward them when they do something that we want. They do enjoy wither scratching. So back at the nape of the, um, the mane, if you scratch them there, they'll typically enjoy that. But I would say that, that, um, ch- different animals, different individuals will have these individual preferences, and just trying to see what they like. And perhaps also if you're, if you're offering your hands like this, they might even scoot around to show you which body part they want scratched once they learn this, this, the, the rules of that communication.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman27:00

       I feel like dogs want the part of their body scratched that, uh, they can't access on their own.

   30. KWKarolina Westlund27:06

       Yes.
7. 27:53 – 37:13

   Space, Dominance, Resources, Leash Walking; Dog-Owner Training

   1. AHAndrew Huberman27:53

      to interact. I've heard, and I don't know if it's true, that for dogs space is a big thing. Um, I don't know if this is true. I'm sure, uh, someone will, um, refute this. But the idea that, you know, if your dog runs up to you when you walk in, or to, you know, a dog runs up to you and it's a new dog you're just meeting and they touch you or they jump up on your shin, that there's a, that it's their attempt to dominate you. Like, "This is my space. I'm controlling you." That, because you wouldn't necessarily walk up to a dog that you just met and just get right in their space without kind of them approaching you as well. What are your thoughts on this whole dominant-submission thing on the basis of touch and space?

   2. KWKarolina Westlund28:31

      That's like Pandora's box there, right there. (laughs)

   3. AHAndrew Huberman28:33

      Great. I don't have any st- uh, you know, stake in this. I just would like to learn and I would like people to learn so that they can have, uh, better interactions with-

   4. KWKarolina Westlund28:40

      Yeah, yeah.

   5. AHAndrew Huberman28:40

      ... with and for animals.

   6. KWKarolina Westlund28:41

      Sure.

   7. AHAndrew Huberman28:42

      Yeah.

   8. KWKarolina Westlund28:42

      Yeah, so first of all, I think that, that actually, we often do walk up to strange dogs that we never b- met before. We're like, "Hi. Can I pet him?" And then we start patting on, on top of the-

   9. AHAndrew Huberman28:52

      Guilty.

   10. KWKarolina Westlund28:52

       ... animal's head.

   11. AHAndrew Huberman28:53

       Guilty.

   12. KWKarolina Westlund28:53

       So I think that we do do that.

   13. AHAndrew Huberman28:54

       Mm-hmm.

   14. KWKarolina Westlund28:55

       And then this whole discussion about dominance is really interesting, because as an ethologist how we define dominance is completely different from how most people (laughs) define it. And I actually, I looked into the encyclopedia to see how is, um, dominance defined there, and I find that there's two, like two lines of that definition. So one is the ethological definition of dominance, and one is the sociological definition of dominance. And I think that what we're doing often is that we're misus- we're, we're using the sociological definition on animals, um, in a way that's, I think, unfortunate, 'cause the ethological definition is about priority of access to resources. Here's a resource. Here's, like, five individuals coming up to it. There's just one there. The dominant individual will have priority of access to that resource. The others simply have to wait or look elsewhere.

   15. AHAndrew Huberman29:53

       Mm-hmm.

   16. KWKarolina Westlund29:54

       Uh, and this reduces the risk of sort of confrontation, and aggression, and all the costs associated with that. So it's, it's just, it's normal that animals who hang out together, who are, like, in a stable social group, will organize or, or have some sort of, uh, dominance hierarchy within them that, that allows this to take place to reduce the risk, th- the risk of aggression. Uh, it tends to become exacerbated in captivity.... compared to, uh, in, in, wild, uh, contexts because then the animals can disperse.

   17. AHAndrew Huberman30:27

       Mm-hmm.

   18. KWKarolina Westlund30:27

       And there's like, there's a resource over there that they can go and get instead. But when we house them, uh, w- and we're offering, uh, specifically we're offering, like, here's, you have two cats or three cats and now it's here, here's the food, you're, you're putting the animals in conflict because cats are solitary hunters. So they actually do pref- if you have several cats, you should feed them s- in, uh, sort of separate locations to reduce that sort of heightened arousal that goes with that type of feeding.

   19. AHAndrew Huberman30:59

       Okay. There's dominance among dogs, or among dogs and other non-human animals. I'm thinking in terms of the relationship between human and dog.

   20. KWKarolina Westlund31:08

       Mm.

   21. AHAndrew Huberman31:08

       Um, and touch and space.

   22. KWKarolina Westlund31:10

       Mm.

   23. AHAndrew Huberman31:10

       You know, I've heard that, um, if the dog touches you, it thinks it owns you. I've heard that if you move into a space, um, that the dog is and it backs away, then it's, uh, you know, it thinks of you as dominant. Um, I've also heard that if the dog moves into your space very quickly, that it sees itself as kind of the leader in this, uh, relationship. There are a lot of theories out there about this, and I'm realizing that all these theories about animals, um, must be very contentious because, um, they lack the language to tell us what we want to know.

   24. KWKarolina Westlund31:43

       Yeah.

   25. AHAndrew Huberman31:44

       And so we're, we're always sort of guessing when we're doing ethology.

   26. KWKarolina Westlund31:46

       I, I would not label any of those situations that you described as a dominance interaction, actually.

   27. AHAndrew Huberman31:51

       Hm.

   28. KWKarolina Westlund31:51

       I would rather, if the dog backs away when you confront them, I would sort of s- rather label that as perhaps a fearful reaction.

   29. AHAndrew Huberman31:58

       Mm-hmm.

   30. KWKarolina Westlund31:59

       Uh, not submissive as in giving you priority of access to a resource.
8. 37:13 – 43:24

   Tail Wagging & Interpreting Body Signals, Facial Expressions

   1. KWKarolina Westlund37:13

      yeah.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman37:13

      Um, so maybe given the, the sort of pattern of, of your answers over the last couple of questions, I, I should ask the question, um, which is a really straightforward one, which is, how do you think about animals? Like, like, what is your view of animals when you, when you think about them? I know you're interested in their welfare and improving their wellbeing-

   3. KWKarolina Westlund37:34

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman37:34

      ... and, um, conditions, but h- how do you ... Like, when you see, uh, an animal, it, um, most people say, "Okay, well, that's a dog, that's a horse, that's a parrot. Um, can I interact with it? Maybe I don't want to, or maybe I have a phobia." Who knows?

   5. KWKarolina Westlund37:47

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AHAndrew Huberman37:47

      But how do you think about animals? Like, what, what's driving this inquiry in terms of their, their emotional and their cognitive life?

   7. KWKarolina Westlund37:54

      First of all, I think that we humans are also an animal species. And that we, we, I, we, we tend to sort of put ourselves on a pedestal in thinking that we, we are one, and then animals are like this, this, the other, uh, as if it were, uh, homogeneous, which is, it really isn't. So, so each animal species have their own adapt- we have our own adaptations, and each animal, all, all the other animal species that we surround ourselves with will, with, do as well. So, um, I don't know if that really answers your question. But, uh, I tend to... So, the work I do is to sort of try to help animals live better lives with humans, and that very often starts with understanding how that animal species would live in the wild and the type of, of life that they have, whether they're a predator, whether they're a prey animal species, uh, how they process the world, the, the type of information that they take in. Um, so for instance, we might see a dog who's wagging its tail, and we might think that it's only happy dogs that wag their tails, but actually, tail-wagging is seen in many different contexts. Uh, and we might think of it as a visual communication thing. But actually, it could be that they're disbursing scent. That the tail wag will sort of ... That scent will waft over to you so you can, uh, take in information about my current emotional state.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman39:29

      They definitely have scent glands back there.

   9. KWKarolina Westlund39:31

      Oh, yeah.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman39:31

       Yeah. Interesting. So, can we interpret dog wags of different types?

   11. KWKarolina Westlund39:35

       Yeah.

   12. AHAndrew Huberman39:35

       Is there a, is there a way to do that?

   13. KWKarolina Westlund39:36

       So, so one very interesting thing is that the dog wagging with a predominant left wag tend-

   14. AHAndrew Huberman39:43

       Left for the dog?

   15. KWKarolina Westlund39:44

       Left for the dog, so he's-

   16. AHAndrew Huberman39:45

       Mm-hmm.

   17. KWKarolina Westlund39:45

       ... wagging on the left-hand side of his body-

   18. AHAndrew Huberman39:47

       Mm-hmm.

   19. KWKarolina Westlund39:48

       ... tends to be associated with negative emotional states, and on the right tends to be associated with positive emotional states. Uh, and, and the same, cats tend to look at the world from the n- the left when in a negative emotional state-

   20. AHAndrew Huberman40:04

       So-

   21. KWKarolina Westlund40:04

       ... and from the right when in a positive emotional state.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman40:07

       So, uh, looking from the left, meaning the left eye slightly forward-

   23. KWKarolina Westlund40:11

       Yeah, so, so taking-

   24. AHAndrew Huberman40:11

       ... uh, the head tilted, so the right eye-

   25. KWKarolina Westlund40:13

       So taking in that information with this eye.

   26. AHAndrew Huberman40:15

       So, okay, so for the-

   27. KWKarolina Westlund40:15

       If you're scary, I'm gonna look at you.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman40:16

       Some people are just listening, they're not watching-

   29. KWKarolina Westlund40:18

       Okay. (laughs)

   30. AHAndrew Huberman40:18

       ... so they can't see this. So, what, um, what Karolina is describing is if the, the head is turned slightly to the side, so the left eye is forward-
9. 43:24 – 48:39

   Play Bow, Tool: MARS & Playing; Dogs & Empathy

   1. KWKarolina Westlund43:24

      where we look first.

   2. AHAndrew Huberman43:26

      Which behaviors in dogs, uh, are maintained from interactions with other dogs, um, when they interact with humans? For instance, um, if, uh, one is gonna, like, take a dog out on a walk and it's familiar with the sound of the leash coming off the, the hook or something like that, it's not uncommon for a dog to go into that long, full, um, uh, you know, front leg stretch that people call down dog, you know, in yoga.

   3. KWKarolina Westlund43:55

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   4. AHAndrew Huberman43:55

      So, uh, um, and some people will say that's a kind of remnant of the puppy play, um, kind of stance. Again, people say this stuff. People are often self-appointed dog experts.

   5. KWKarolina Westlund44:07

      (laughs)

   6. AHAndrew Huberman44:07

      This is kind of interesting, like, and the, and I've learned this from researching it online, that the, the various camps of, of, quote unquote, "dog experts"-

   7. KWKarolina Westlund44:15

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AHAndrew Huberman44:15

      ... disagree vehemently with each other.

   9. KWKarolina Westlund44:17

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, oh, yeah.

   10. AHAndrew Huberman44:17

       I mean, they, they write to me saying, you know, "They're evil."

   11. KWKarolina Westlund44:21

       (laughs)

   12. AHAndrew Huberman44:21

       "This person is cruel." You know, they, they blame each other of animal cruelty-

   13. KWKarolina Westlund44:25

       Yeah.

   14. AHAndrew Huberman44:25

       ... for different training, um, different training tools.

   15. KWKarolina Westlund44:28

       Yeah.

   16. AHAndrew Huberman44:28

       We'll talk about that a little bit later.

   17. KWKarolina Westlund44:29

       Yeah.

   18. AHAndrew Huberman44:29

       But, um, dogs will do this, uh, down dog type, uh, movement-

   19. KWKarolina Westlund44:35

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AHAndrew Huberman44:35

       ... whatever it means, with other dogs, and they'll do it with humans.

   21. KWKarolina Westlund44:38

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AHAndrew Huberman44:38

       Do you think it means the same thing in those two different contexts?

   23. KWKarolina Westlund44:42

       Most probably does. That play bow that you're describing is, uh, what's referred to as a meta-signal for play. So, it's typically shown in a play context, and I haven't seen it described, but then again, I'm not a dog owner, uh, but I haven't des- seen it described in, in the context of, "Let's go for a walk." But certainly, in the play context, um, as far as I know, dogs play a bit differently with humans than they do with other dogs, but they do enjoy playing with humans. Uh, and, and sometimes I think we humans have a hard time knowing whether what we're seeing is play or aggression, because there will be elements from the aggressive repertoire within a play bow. But typically what we can do then is look for what's referred to as MARS, M-A-R-S. So M being the meta-signals, so those play bows, or in other species, it will be other behaviors that are sort of indicating that I wanna play. Uh, I know chimpanzees have like 30 or 50 different meta signals for play. Um, M-A, A is for activity shift, so we'll see different behaviors. They might be chasing, they might be pouncing, they might be wrestling, biting each other, uh, but you'll see these activity shifts, and it's not in the same order as it would be if they were truly fighting. Uh, M-A-R, R is for role reversals. So you'll see that the, the dog, uh, the dogs, if they're of different sizes or different, um, sort of stamina or how big they are or how, um, competent fighters they are, would be that they'll take turns at winning and losing.

   24. AHAndrew Huberman46:25

       Yeah, I've seen that.

   25. KWKarolina Westlund46:26

       Yeah, because they, it's not fun playing if you lose all the time. So in order to keep playing, the bigger dog needs to lose sometimes. So they-

   26. AHAndrew Huberman46:33

       Hmm.

   27. KWKarolina Westlund46:34

       ... they need to, in order to, to keep this interaction going, uh, that's the way to do that. And the last one, S is self-handicap. So the larger dog will, will self-handicap themselves. You might see them doing a tug of war, and the large do- large dog is just standing there and holding the thing, and the small dog is, like, pulling and, and really trying to get the thing, and the big dog is just standing there doing nothing. But then if a human takes over the toy and starts pulling, then the big dog will engage and start showing more of his strength and, and, uh, escalate that behavior.

   28. AHAndrew Huberman47:06

       That's a beautiful thing when you see animals adjusting their level of a kind of vigor in play-

   29. KWKarolina Westlund47:10

       Yeah. Yeah.

   30. AHAndrew Huberman47:11

       ... so that the play can continue.
10. 48:39 – 51:46

    Sponsors: AG1 & Joovv

    1. KWKarolina Westlund48:39

       some type of empathy.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman48:41

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that also contains adaptogens. I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, long before I even knew what a podcast was. I started taking it, and I still take it every single day, because it ensures that I meet my quota for daily vitamins and minerals, and it helps make sure that I get enough prebiotics and probiotics to support my gut health. Over the past 10 years, gut health has emerged as something that we realize is important, not only for the health of our digestion, but also for our immune system and for the production of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators, things like dopamine and serotonin. In other words, gut health is critical for proper brain function. Now, of course, I strive to eat healthy whole foods from unprocessed sources for the majority of my nutritional intake. But there are a number of things in AG1, including specific micronutrients that are hard or impossible to get from whole foods. So by taking AG1 daily, I get the vitamins and minerals that I need, along with the probiotics and prebiotics for gut health, and in turn, brain and immune system health, and the adaptogens and critical micronutrients that are essential for all organs and tissues of the body. So anytime somebody asks me if they were to only take one supplement, what that supplement should be, I always say AG1, because AG1 supports so many different systems in the brain and body that relate to our mental health, physical health, and performance. If you'd like to try AG1, you can go to drinkag1.com/huberman. For this month only, April 2025, AG1 is giving away a free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil along with a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2. As I've highlighted before on this podcast, omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D3 plus K2 have been shown to help with everything from mood and brain health to heart health and healthy hormone production, and much more. Again, that's drinkag1.com/huberman to get the free one-month supply of omega-3 fish oil plus a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 with your subscription. Today's episode is also brought to us by Joovv. Joovv makes medical grade red light therapy devices. Now, if there's one thing that I have consistently emphasized on this podcast, it is the incredible impact that light can have on our biology. Now, in addition to sunlight, red light and near infrared light sources have been shown to have positive effects on improving numerous aspects of cellular and organ health, including faster muscle recovery, improved skin health and wound healing, improvements in acne, reduced pain and inflammation, even mitochondrial function, and improving vision itself. What sets Joovv lights apart and why they're my preferred red light therapy device is that they use clinically proven wavelengths, meaning specific wavelengths of red light and near-infrared light in combination to trigger the optimal cellular adaptations. Personally, I use the Joovv whole body panel about three to four times a week, and I use the Joovv handheld light both at home and when I travel. If you'd like to try Joovv, you can go to Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman. Joovv is offering an exclusive discount to all Huberman Lab listeners with up to $400 off Joovv products. Again, that's Joovv, spelled J-O-O-V-V, .com/huberman to get up to $400

11. 51:46 – 57:45

    Fairness, Social Groups; Anthropomorphism vs Anthropodenial

    1. AHAndrew Huberman51:46

       off. I've always been, um, delighted and, uh, curious about the fact that if two animals of the same species both receive food or a treat, it seems, I don't know, but it, uh, it seems that they are paying attention to how much treat the other is getting. And as a sibling, I have an older sister, who I get along very well with, um, and always have, but when we were kids, I'll never forget like, um, if there was a treat like a milkshake or something. She would point out that she had slightly more than I did.

    2. KWKarolina Westlund52:26

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman52:26

       Um, if there was a slice of cake or something, it was as much as we would look at the- s- the slice of cake being served to us, we were looking to see how much, uh, the- the other one got.

    4. KWKarolina Westlund52:35

       Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman52:35

       And this was a reflexive thing. And we're not competitive in- in any dimension really. Uh, we've always respected e- each other's strengths and- and- and weaknesses in a- in a way that's very, uh, complimentary, but when it comes to treats-

    6. KWKarolina Westlund52:49

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman52:50

       ... humans and dogs-

    8. KWKarolina Westlund52:52

       (laughs)

    9. AHAndrew Huberman52:52

       ... pay a lot of attention-

    10. KWKarolina Westlund52:53

        Oh, yeah.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman52:54

        ... to who's getting what.

    12. KWKarolina Westlund52:55

        Fairness, yeah. There was this- this, uh, uh, experiment done on capuchin monkeys by Frans de Waal and his team, um, and apparently they did it and they published a paper on it and, you know, nobody read it. And then like a decade later, uh, in preparation for a presentation, they, uh, redid some of the experiment and- and filmed it. And he shared that on (laughs) on the presentation. I don't know if you've seen it, but essentially it's two capuchin monkeys and they're next to one another so they can each see what the other is getting. And they're asked to do a task, like give a ... the- the researcher hands them a rock and they hand it back to the researcher and then they get a reinforcer or a treat, uh, as payment for that behavior. And so the first, uh, monkey, uh, gets a piece of cucumber, and he's happy. He eats that cucumber. And then the- the researcher turns towards the second, um, monkey, and requests the same behavior, gets the same behavior, and feeds that animal a grape. And capuchins, uh, are not too enthusiastic about p- cucumbers, but they really love grapes. So when she then turns back to the first monkey again and s- and repeats the behavior and again feeds that one a cucumber that he was happy to eat like 30 seconds ago, he actually throws a tantrum and throws it back at the researcher sort of going, "Ugh, I saw that you fed the other guy a grape." Uh, and the- the audience is laughing. So it's- it's like, I think we all recognize that situation that we- we take affront to somebody else getting paid better for the same quality of work.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman54:41

        Yeah, I'm always interested in these studies, um, that every few years something... I didn't know that one, so thank you-

    14. KWKarolina Westlund54:45

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman54:45

        ... for sharing that, where, uh, there's something about resource allocation that's revealed.

    16. KWKarolina Westlund54:50

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman54:50

        And then for every one of those, there will be a study that shows, for instance, uh...And I'm not gonna get the details right here, but, um, that crows f- uh, will, um, teach each other ways to open boxes so that another one-

    18. KWKarolina Westlund55:05

        Oh. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman55:06

        ... can get food-

    20. KWKarolina Westlund55:06

        Yeah.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman55:06

        ... even if they don't have access to that food.

    22. KWKarolina Westlund55:08

        Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman55:09

        Um, just, it seems like an act of altruism.

    24. KWKarolina Westlund55:11

        Yeah, yeah, sure.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman55:11

        So we'll see fairness, we'll see altruism.

    26. KWKarolina Westlund55:13

        Oh, yes.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman55:14

        Um, a very different picture than this whole notion of dominance hierarchies-

    28. KWKarolina Westlund55:18

        Mm-hmm.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman55:18

        ... and every member of a species is just trying to get the most that they possibly can-

    30. KWKarolina Westlund55:23

        Mm-hmm.
12. 57:45 – 1:03:56

    Cats, Hunting, Bring Gifts?, Interaction & Socialization

    1. KWKarolina Westlund57:45

       to do with us.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman57:47

       Let's talk about a species that, um, can be divisive. Cats.

    3. KWKarolina Westlund57:53

       Oh.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman57:54

       My sister has cats, and I don't mind them. I can't say I gravitate toward them.

    5. KWKarolina Westlund57:59

       (laughs)

    6. AHAndrew Huberman58:00

       But I don't dislike them.

    7. KWKarolina Westlund58:01

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman58:01

       You do own a cat.

    9. KWKarolina Westlund58:03

       Yep. Yeah.

    10. AHAndrew Huberman58:03

        And you're an animal ethologist.

    11. KWKarolina Westlund58:05

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman58:07

        Tell us about cats from the perspective of an animal ethologist. When you look at a cat, what do you, what are you looking for to tell you something about whether or not it's a friendly cat? I mean, obviously if its hair is standing up on its back and it's arching and it's hissing, that's obvious, but w- w- what are you looking at in the context of the way that cats, um, evolved, and, and their species in general?

    13. KWKarolina Westlund58:33

        Hmm. So the, the common house cat that we have today as a pet, um, um, evolved as a solitary hunter, uh, but that aggregates in social groups. Um, loose social groups, so they sort of hang out together, but it's not this really, uh, uh, cohesive group. And they, they hunt on their own, so they'll eat on their own also. And me as an ethologist, what I tend to do when I look at an animal species is I look at three things. I look at their social environment. So typically with cats, I would then say that they, you know, um, they should, if they are raised well, so they've had, had the opportunity of spending enough time with Mom, typically it should be up to 14 weeks, which, uh, I think that we, we see that in Sweden nowadays. I don't know how it is here in the US. But that seems to be, uh, long enough for the animal to actually learn how to be a cat, so that they don't get too emotionally disturbed by the separation once we wean them and, and sort of put them in a new environment. So, so just looking at the social bit is one thing that I do, the first thing that I do. The second thing that I do is I look at, how do they get food? So again, cats are solitary hunters, so I would look into ways of... And, and they, uh, as opposed to dogs, cats typically retain the whole hunting sequence.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:04

        Mm-hmm.

    15. KWKarolina Westlund1:00:05

        Uh, sometimes the killing bite isn't quite there, but certainly the grab bite, and the fact that some cats will, i- if they're, it's an outdoor cat, that they might bring their prey back home is, to me, is simply, it's not that they want to gift you with, uh, (laughs) their, uh, their kill, but rather that they feel safe in... So they're simply bring- bringing their, uh, um, their prey to a place where they feel safe.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:34

        So it's not a gift. We can put that one to rest.

    17. KWKarolina Westlund1:00:36

        I, I wouldn't say th- I, I would not call that a gift, no.

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:39

        Mm-mm. I had a, a girlfriend in graduate school, and her cat would catch these very large mice and put them in our shoes...

    19. KWKarolina Westlund1:00:48

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:48

        ... at night. It was dreadful.

    21. KWKarolina Westlund1:00:50

        Would the cat put them in the shoes or would the mice hide in the shoes?

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:56

        Well, they were dead when we found them.

    23. KWKarolina Westlund1:00:57

        Okay.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:00:57

        So I'm assuming that-

    25. KWKarolina Westlund1:00:59

        The cat put them there.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:00

        ... the cat would put them in the shoes.

    27. KWKarolina Westlund1:01:01

        Yeah. Yeah.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:01

        The cat also loved to retrieve-... tin foil balls, little tin foil balls. I've never seen a cat retrieve.

    29. KWKarolina Westlund1:01:09

        Oh, yeah, yeah.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:01:10

        At first, I didn't-
13. 1:03:56 – 1:08:17

    Scent & Territorial Marking; Covering Waste, Tool: Litter Box Placement

    1. KWKarolina Westlund1:03:56

       in the environment.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:03:57

       What is this behavior of bumping, uh, where, where the cat bumps its head against you or your arm? Uh, is it to, um, spread smell?

    3. KWKarolina Westlund1:04:07

       Yeah. I would say that is scent marking, yeah.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:09

       So, and when they're scent marking you-

    5. KWKarolina Westlund1:04:11

       Yeah.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:12

       ... why are they scent marking?

    7. KWKarolina Westlund1:04:14

       I would think that it's, it's like something you do in your group. You do mutual scent marking, which means that everybody in the group smells more or less the same. So it's a s- it's a way of sort of greeting and incorporating the others in the group. So there will be a lot of scent exchange within, uh, this type of species living in a group. That would be my guess as to why they do that.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:39

       So, is scent marking about territory as well? Like, if a cat, you know, scent marks in corners and-

    9. KWKarolina Westlund1:04:45

       Oh, yeah. They-

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:04:45

        ... does that sort of-

    11. KWKarolina Westlund1:04:46

        ... but that's a different, that's typically not the... because the- they have like multiple scent glands in the face that are... and, and one of them is used to scent mark sort of the inner territory, and this is where they feel really safe. And then they usually have this urine scent marking which is in the out, sort of, um, the outskirts of the territory.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:07

        Hmm.

    13. KWKarolina Westlund1:05:07

        And you, you might see this if you, if, for instance, you have an indoor cat and they start peeing, and you bring out a piece of paper and a layout of your, um, your house or apartment, and you start m- sort of putting a little ring to where you find the, the pee. That will give you a lot of information because if, if it's a territorial thing, it will typically be at the edges of... so at the windows or doors. If it's a, an elimination problem that the cat has sort of maybe perhaps, uh, it hurts when he pees, so then he learns to associate pain with going in the box. And so the box starts representing painful experiences, so he'll start going outside of the box. But that type of behavior will be seen in that context instead.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:05:57

        Interesting. Um, so if your cat is urinating inside, you now have a, an experiment to run. The use of a litter box-

    15. KWKarolina Westlund1:06:05

        Mm-hmm.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:06

        ... is a pretty interesting one to me. It's not one I spend a lot of time thinking about.

    17. KWKarolina Westlund1:06:10

        (laughs)

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:10

        But if you, uh, sort of step back and you say, okay, here's this animal that we've domesticated.

    19. KWKarolina Westlund1:06:13

        Mm-hmm.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:14

        And it readily learns how to cover its waste.

    21. KWKarolina Westlund1:06:17

        Mm-hmm.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:18

        Um, which is very different than a dog.

    23. KWKarolina Westlund1:06:20

        Mm-hmm.

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:21

        Which can be trained to with- withhold until you go out on a walk.

    25. KWKarolina Westlund1:06:25

        Mm-hmm.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:26

        That's basically the-

    27. KWKarolina Westlund1:06:27

        Mm-hmm.

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:27

        ... two different strategies there. (laughs)

    29. KWKarolina Westlund1:06:28

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:06:30

        Um, and I don't know what it is if you own a monkey, um, or something else, but what is it about the covering of waste behavior? Is that something i- in cats, is that a natural behavior they do in the wild? And if they roam, why do they bother? Or is it, um... and then sort of tacked to this is that with dogs oftentimes after they eliminate waste, they'll step away from it and kick dirt in the general direction.
14. 1:08:17 – 1:11:54

    “Pee Mail” & Communication; Wolves, Domestication

    1. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:17

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:17

       ... by some distance.

    3. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:18

       Mm-hmm.

    4. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:18

       I was always, um, somewhat surprised, uh, although less so over time, uh, how much determination and effort my bulldog would put into peeing on things-

    5. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:32

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:32

       ... on walks.

    7. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:33

       Yeah.

    8. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:33

       Because I feel like it was one of his great joys in life.

    9. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:36

       (laughs)

    10. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:36

        There I go again, anthropomorphizing-

    11. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:38

        Yeah.

    12. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:38

        ... but-

    13. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:38

        Yeah.

    14. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:38

        But to smell something and then pee there-

    15. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:42

        Yeah.

    16. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:43

        ... um, he seemed to have an endless supply of urine for this.

    17. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:47

        (laughs)

    18. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:47

        Um, it was really remarkable.

    19. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:49

        Yeah.

    20. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:49

        You know, as, as a scientist and someone who loves dogs and loved him, you know, more than words, I just (laughs) was like, "This is amazing." Like-

    21. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:56

        Yeah.

    22. AHAndrew Huberman1:08:56

        ... like, he loves this behavior.

    23. KWKarolina Westlund1:08:58

        Yeah, yeah. And he's also reading the pee mail from the other dogs-

    24. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:01

        Right.

    25. KWKarolina Westlund1:09:01

        ... that are in the, the neighborhood. So, the urine tells a lot of information to the other animals. It tells what, what gender, what, you know, reproductive state, perhaps also something about the animal's emotional state or mental state.

    26. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:13

        Mm-hmm.

    27. KWKarolina Westlund1:09:13

        So, I wouldn't hesitate to say that, that, that was one of the joys of life for, for dogs that they-

    28. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:19

        (laughs)

    29. KWKarolina Westlund1:09:19

        ... they, that's, after all, that's how they communicate. So it, it's... And they spend a lot of time doing it, and they're willing to work to get access to that, uh, opportunity. So ab- absolutely, I would, I would think that it gives them positive emotional experiences doing that.

    30. AHAndrew Huberman1:09:34

        So, there's some innate drive in, in dogs, it seems, to, um, read the emotional and hormonal states of other dogs that have been-
15. 1:11:54 – 1:18:53

    Zoos, Conservation; Tigers

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:54

       is really the key.

    2. KWKarolina Westlund1:11:55

       Yeah.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:11:55

       Does that mean that animals at, at a very basic level are looking to optimize food intake and safety? And what does that tell us about zoos? I personally have a, uh, a pretty strong, um, visceral reaction to zoos that, um, have large carnivores. Uh, I realize we could have a discussion about elephants too, but I feel like large carnivores hou- housed in zoos creates some issues for me. I won't go into what this is, but, but I also hear that zoos have, um, positive, uh, breeding programs, uh, endangered species protection programs.

    4. KWKarolina Westlund1:12:32

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:12:32

       Uh, what's your take on zoos?

    6. KWKarolina Westlund1:12:34

       When we talk about zoos, it's perhaps good to talk about the evolution of zoos because back in the day, like 150 years ago, it used to be more or less a menagerie that, you know, here, here's a lion and here's an elephant and here's a zebra, and they were all in little, uh, small cages and the only thing that you did was see the animal really. Zoos today tend to have the purpose of doing a lot of conservation work. So there's, there's, um, what's referred to as in situ conservation where you work to preserve wild habitats and creating national parks, et cetera, and, and sort of giving the opportunities for, for reintroduction of species for, and so on. And there's ex situ conservation, which is then housing those-... uh, animal species that are, are threatened with extinction in an environment, and ideally, that environment should then be good enough to promote, uh, um, species-typical behavior and so on. So, I'm, I'm, I mean, I'm conflicted. I think that, that many zoos are sort of doing a lot of, um, a lot of good in, in, in this effort, and also educating the public. And many, I think that many people who go to zoos, that might awaken in them an interest in animals, which I think is a good thing that we, that we care about animals. But also, that sometimes the, um, the housing is- isn't optimal, and certainly some species are a more, a lot more difficult to keep in captivity compared to others. So, polar bears are, are really difficult to keep because they're, they're, they're ranging primate, um, carnivores. They walk miles and miles and miles, and it's really difficult to, to provide those species specific opportunities in captivity compared to other, uh, carnivores who have more of a, a different type of approach to, to predation.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:14:39

       One of the things that really turned me onto, uh, just how, um, more sophisticated, um, cat species are than I ever assumed was, um, something that happened when I was a post-doc at, also at Stanford. Uh, I was a member of the San Francisco Zoo. The San Francisco Zoo is an outdoor zoo. By comparison to most other zoos I've been to, and I haven't been to that many-

    8. KWKarolina Westlund1:15:03

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:03

       ... but it's a pretty, uh, nice landscape.

    10. KWKarolina Westlund1:15:05

        Mm.

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:07

        Um, there's an outdoor lemur, uh-

    12. KWKarolina Westlund1:15:09

        Mm.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:10

        ... I call it an exhibit, but, you know-

    14. KWKarolina Westlund1:15:11

        Yeah.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:11

        ... in, uh, indoor/outdoor lemur thing that's really amazing. There's some giraffes, all this. Well, um, around the time I was in, when I was a post-doc, I will just briefly tell this story. I was at the movies in San Francisco and I, I stepped out to get something to drink and the, the kid behind the counter said, "Th- a tiger escaped from the San Francisco Zoo and is killing people." And I thought, "What? Like, that's crazy." Turns out that was only partially true. What had happened is there was a tiger there, Tatiana-

    16. KWKarolina Westlund1:15:41

        Mm-hmm.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:42

        ... who, um, they used to have these moats around the, the tiger enclosure.

    18. KWKarolina Westlund1:15:46

        Mm-hmm.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:46

        And it was very close to Christmas. People can look this up and get the details. And there were a couple of kids who were throwing either pine cones or, or throwing something at the tigers.

    20. KWKarolina Westlund1:15:56

        Mm.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:15:56

        Okay? The zoo was near shutting down. Tatiana either ran up or jumped the moat. I don't know how she did it. Um, got out and moved through the crowd. This is the, to me, the interesting part, moved through the crowd, completely ignoring most of the people that were around, centered in on, and killed one of the kids, then moved to the second kid. Worked him pretty well. The authorities showed up, killed Tatiana. This opened up a whole discussion in the zoo community, um, raised a lot of, uh, kind of complicated questions about enclosures, et cetera. The enclosures there, by the way, now are very different. They have these high glass-

    22. KWKarolina Westlund1:16:45

        Oh, yeah.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:16:46

        ... uh, as well, and, of course, the ending was sad for everybody. Um, I took a break from my membership there. I reactivated a few years later. They no, I don't, that tiger, you know, obviously is gone, but, um, I- I still am conflicted about, um, about this whole picture. What's interesting to me is the intentionality of the tiger.

    24. KWKarolina Westlund1:17:06

        Yeah.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:06

        So, this was not a bloodthirsty tiger-

    26. KWKarolina Westlund1:17:08

        No.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:08

        ... that just wanted to kill humans-

    28. KWKarolina Westlund1:17:10

        No, no.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:17:10

        ... or eat humans.

    30. KWKarolina Westlund1:17:11

        No, no.
16. 1:18:53 – 1:20:41

    Sponsor: Function

    1. KWKarolina Westlund1:18:53

       is premeditated.

    2. AHAndrew Huberman1:18:55

       I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function. Last year, I became a Function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing.Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added tests for toxins such as BPA exposure from harmful plastics, and tests for PFASs, or forever chemicals. Function not only provides testing of over 100 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, but it also analyzes these results and provides insights from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with Function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption, I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say by taking a second Function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by Function's simplicity and at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com/huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman to get early

17. 1:20:41 – 1:25:22

    Stalking; Birds, Parrots

    1. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:41

       access to Function. Can we talk a little bit about the, um, the prey and stalking and capture and killing sequence?

    2. KWKarolina Westlund1:20:50

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AHAndrew Huberman1:20:51

       One of the things that, um, I've always been fascinated by is when a, let's just use a cat as an example, could be large cat, could be small cat, is in its stalking mode that it essentially gets one ballistic strike opportunity-

    4. KWKarolina Westlund1:21:07

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:07

       ... before the, the, before the chase is on, or-

    6. KWKarolina Westlund1:21:09

       Yeah.

    7. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:09

       ... or the animal gets away or it gets caught, right?

    8. KWKarolina Westlund1:21:12

       Yeah.

    9. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:12

       And we will see the, um, we had a cat when I was a kid, um, that would like stalk and, you know, so obviously like creep up and then right before it would leap at the prey, it would-

    10. KWKarolina Westlund1:21:28

        (laughs)

    11. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:28

        It would start chattering its teeth.

    12. KWKarolina Westlund1:21:30

        Ah, yeah. Yeah.

    13. AHAndrew Huberman1:21:31

        Um, I'm assuming that was behavioral suppression or something leaking through. What, what's going on when, when a animal does that very deliberate stalking, that calculation, um, and the, like teeth chatters or, or like twitching is starting to occur? What is that?

    14. KWKarolina Westlund1:21:45

        My guess would be perhaps some sort of, sort of displacement behavior that there's motivation to move on in the sequence of behaviors to the next behavior, but it's not quite time yet. And so that sort of activation then gets an outlet through that behavior. But I really don't know.

    15. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:02

        Mm-hmm.

    16. KWKarolina Westlund1:22:02

        I don't know. I haven't seen this discussed.

    17. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:04

        So it's almost like a, like a hydraulic pressure or something building up?

    18. KWKarolina Westlund1:22:06

        Maybe. Yeah.

    19. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:07

        Interesting. Interesting. Um, we've talked about dogs. We've talked about cats. Let's talk about birds.

    20. KWKarolina Westlund1:22:15

        Okay.

    21. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:16

        I had parrots when I was a kid.

    22. KWKarolina Westlund1:22:17

        Mm-hmm.

    23. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:18

        They were domestically bred, little gray-cheeked dwarf parrots. It didn't turn out poorly. It didn't turn out great. They, they were, um, I didn't clip their wings 'cause I couldn't bring myself to, and they flew around my room a lot and shitted around the room a lot and threw a lot of food on the ground a lot. And, uh, eventually made sense to give them to somebody who had a, an aviary.

    24. KWKarolina Westlund1:22:39

        Mm-hmm.

    25. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:40

        Um, parrots are smart. Yeah?

    26. KWKarolina Westlund1:22:43

        Yeah.

    27. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:44

        What are parrots thinking about?

    28. KWKarolina Westlund1:22:45

        I think what, what all animals are thinking about, where their next meal is come, come, gonna come from, uh, social interactions, and whether there's any threat anywhere.

    29. AHAndrew Huberman1:22:53

        Is that really their, like 90% of their conscious life?

    30. KWKarolina Westlund1:22:57

        I would, I would say, I would say that, um, uh, if the animal doesn't feel safe, then it's very hard to engage the animal in any type of sort of f- If an animal is fearful and you try to feed them, they often won't take food, for instance. So the sense of safety has a very high priority because if you don't feel safe, you could die essentially. So if you're in a situation where you don't feel safe, it's because that situation is potentially dangerous. There could be predators around. And then you must focus your attention on those predators 'cause otherwise you're gonna die. And that, of course, depends on the species, that some species are sort of aggregate in big flocks if we're talking birds, and some are, um, pair bonding species, but the social environment is really important both with regards to, uh, uh, you know, um, parenting behavior. So sexual behavior, parenting behavior, raising young and so on. All of that also has high priority because it's essentially about, um, furthering your genes into the next generation. Um, and then, uh, and then foraging behaviors. Where am I gonna get my next meal? We feed them on a plate and we're thinking like, we, we think that we're doing them a service. Like, here's, here's your food on a plate. You don't have to do anything. But they come equipped to actually show their food getting repertoire of behaviors. So typically if we don't allow them to show those behaviors, we might see some problem behaviors popping up instead because they will redirect that, that energy, that, um, intention into... I don't know. Had, did you have any problems with the animals sort of, or the birds, you know, ripping your carpet or, or doing some destructive-

Episode duration: 2:05:23