Jay Shetty Podcast#1 Body Language Expert: “Men Find This IRRESISTIBLE & Most Women Never Do It” - Try This ASAP
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
115 min read · 22,568 words- 0:00 – 0:51
Intro
- JSJay Shetty
How do you let someone know that they should make a move without giving anything away? Vanessa Van Edwards. Bestselling author and researcher, Vanessa Van Edwards.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
We decide how confident someone is within the first 200 milliseconds of hearing them speak. The best way to show availability is one word, and it sounds like this.
- JSJay Shetty
Tell me why compliments don't work. How do we tell the difference between charisma and narcissism?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
The way you see the world changes the world.
- JSJay Shetty
What are the negative cues we miss because we're infatuated or attracted to someone?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
If you want to be treated with more respect, you have to make sure it's-
- JSJay Shetty
The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only, Jay Shetty. [laughs]
- 0:51 – 2:43
From Awkward to Empowered: Overcoming Social Anxiety
- JSJay Shetty
If someone was not only to listen-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... but to apply the insights you're about to share today-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... what would they overcome?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I'm a recovering awkward person, and I have found that through this work, and that is my mission today with you, that you can overcome awkwardness, doubt, and most importantly, the feeling of being underestimated. I think that that's really what I'm trying to get at with my work is if you feel that you have a lot of potential or you have this desire to connect but you don't know how and people are underestimating your charisma, your ideas, your smarts, who you are, my goal is to make it so you no longer feel underestimated.
- JSJay Shetty
Oh, I love that.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's it.
- JSJay Shetty
That's so strong.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's- those are my people.
- JSJay Shetty
That's so strong.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
My people.
- JSJay Shetty
And, and I resonate with it so strongly because I'm sure, just like you, I meet so many people who feel they have the next big idea, who feel that they have something to share, something to give, something to teach, something to pass on, but they don't feel confident. They're lacking that feeling of courage. They're lacking that feeling of, I don't know how to present my idea. I don't know how to share it, and this is what we're gonna do today.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And the, the problem is, like, I also had these ideas, but I, I not only didn't have confidence, I felt out of control. I think this is an, an aspect of communication we don't talk about enough, I think the side door into confidence because we all say, "I w- I wish I felt more confident." But the side door is thinking, "Okay, I have an idea. What's the blueprint that I need from conversations, from charisma to be able to get where I want? How can I take control of my connections, my relationship, my communication so I know if I want to show up as friendly or as likable or as competent, I know exactly what to do with my body, my voice, my words to show up in that way?" So for me, the w- only way I was a- able to overcome awkwardness was taking control of the signals I'm sending and being able to take control of the kinds of relationships and conversations I had.
- 2:43 – 6:44
How Do You Really Want People to See You?
- JSJay Shetty
What I really appreciate about what you're saying, you just named three things there. You said, "If I want to come across as friendly, likable, and competent."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
What's really fascinating is I think most of us don't even know we want to come across that way.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
This is true. The step one of control is, how do you want people to see you? And here's what's really important. The cues that you send to others make people think about you a certain way, but the cues you send to others also change how others treat you. So if you want to be treated with more respect, you have to make sure it starts with you, that you're sending the cues needed to show others how they should treat you with respect. If you want to be treated with friendliness or warmth or vulnerability, how do you signal to others, "I want you to be open and raw and real with me"? We can take control of those signals to tell others, "Here's how I want to be treated." And so step one is, how do you want people to see you? Let's play a little game, okay? So in your mind, when people first meet you, what word do you think they think? Like, what's a word they use to describe you?
- JSJay Shetty
Ooh, that's so good.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
What do you think, what do you think it is?
- JSJay Shetty
I would hope it is warm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Warm. Okay. So I've asked this to thousands of people, and the words are, you know, all over the place. By the way, a lot of folks have negative words, and that's okay. Like, for example, my word used to be awkward, right? Like-
- JSJay Shetty
People would say that.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I knew. You know, when you show up at... I'm a social overthinker. [laughs] So, like, I, I'll, I would get in my head about things. I would overthink things, and I, I knew, I could see in their face that I was, I was coming across as awkward, and I was creating more awkwardness. So I, my original word for first impression was awkward, and that's what got me into this work. So a lot of the words, I have two kind of groups of people. I have folks like you who are, like, warm, uh, competent, charismatic, confident. I love it. I love it. But a lot of folks, and if this is you, I'm with you, I'm gonna help, it could be quiet. It could be awkward. It could be scared, nervous. There's a lot of words like that. Okay, so start there. Then the question is, what do you want people to think when they first meet you? What's the word that you wish, maybe even two or three words, how do you want to come across? So would yours ideal be warm, and do you have another one that you wish?
- JSJay Shetty
I'd, I'd probably add loving.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Loving? Oh my, love it. Okay. So think of three words that you wish to convey. Now we have to work backwards. So step two is, okay, how do we convey warmth and competence and loving or confidence? That's where the real magic happens, and there are 97 cues. I've identified 97 cues.
- JSJay Shetty
97.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
97 cues. With the very beginning of my career, I realized that humans were sending these social signals back and forth, your nodding, your hand gesture, your feet, your voice power, and I just missed them all. I have a affliction. I tend to inter- misinterpret neutral faces as negative.
- JSJay Shetty
I think we all do.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
A lot of people do.
- JSJay Shetty
A lot of people do.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It's the basis of resting bothered face.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
This is the basis. There's actually science behind RBF, and it's that most people misidentify neutral expressions as negative. And by the way, an interesting thing they found in the research with this was if you are an angrier person, if you tend to get angry more, you see more neutral faces as angry.
- JSJay Shetty
Ooh
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right
- JSJay Shetty
I didn't even think about that
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So in a way, the way you see the world changes the world, right?
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, if you are an angry person and you're misinterpreting neutral faces as angry, and then you c- you reply back with anger or offensiveness or defensiveness, you make them angry.
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely, yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And so this is like this weird cue cycle. Okay, so if there's 97 different cues, I started categorizing them 'cause I was like, "I don't... I'm misinterpreting." And I would say to my husband, "I think she's mad at me." He'd be like, "Why?" I'd go to a party, I'd be like, "Everyone's mad at me," and he'd be like, "I didn't see that at all." And that's when I started to realize, okay, what are the actual negative faces? So I, there, I discovered, you know, the research on microexpressions, the seven microexpressions, which we can talk about, and then I started to categorize these patterns just for me. And then I realized there was all these other awkward people who also wanted to be able to [laughs] read these social signals. And so I think that when you've picked your word, starting to make your recipe of charisma.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, and what
- 6:44 – 10:01
Why Aren’t Your First Impressions Landing?
- JSJay Shetty
I love about this is this is all happening before you get to the date, before you get to the event, before you get to the interview. This is where it has to start, and I think so many of us turn up, and naturally, by the way, me included, I think the challenge I have is people may assume that I'm always confident and have it all together. If I don't prepare for an event, I can turn up and feel exactly the same way because I walk in and I'm rushed there and I'm thinking, "Gosh, what am I gonna say?" Like, "Why am I here again?" And, "Why is that person looking at me with that way?" And were they... Y- right?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay, so this is good. Let's add an, a step to our exercise.
- JSJay Shetty
Please.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Which is, I'm just thinking about this now, what's your bad day first impression word?
- JSJay Shetty
My bad day first impression word would be absent.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
Like I'm just-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Ooh, like muting.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, like I'm just-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... not quite there. I'm probably looking through someone. I'm, I'm probably not listening as well as I usually do.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Because I'm kind of just, I'm lost. I'm a bit lost and absent, yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay. So everyone should think about their bad first impression word, their current first impression word, and their ideal. Why? What are the triggers that trigger you to be in that bad space? And what are the triggers that make you feel in that good space? So one of the very first steps is, okay, whether you're an introvert, an extrovert, or an ambivert, and there is that sort of in between, who triggers you to be your best self? You know how, like, around certain people you're like, "Ah, like I j- I'm my funniest, I'm my [laughs] most charismatic." Great. Those are the people who bring out the good first impression. You wanna be around those people as much as possible. Who are the people who bring out the bad first impression?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? Like, who are the people who make you feel, the way I would describe it is, like, tight inside.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, that's how I would describe it. Rigid. Like, that's what I do. I get very rigid-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... when I'm afraid or nervous. Who makes you feel angry? Who makes you feel rigid? Who makes you feel afraid? Who makes you shut down? You know, awkwardness dresses up in a lot of different ways. Some people, their awkwardness sh- is shutting down, right? They, they mute, they go quiet, they collapse in on themselves. They take up less space from a body language prespec- perspective. But other people get bigger. They become dramatic. They name-drop. They talk too loud. They over-talk. Like, that, that's also a way that our awkwardness dress up. So w- what are your triggers that make you do that? The people, but also the places.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? Like, I love a one-on-one conversation, so I'm, I was more excited for this conversation than I would be, like, if you were to say, "Vanessa, come over to my house for a happy hour."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] Which never happens at my house.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay, great. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] But-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay, great, 'cause I'm not coming.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. [laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I can't come. Or if I come, I would be, like, agonizing the whole time.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, a rooftop bar, you know, a loud nightclub, just, like, not my space.
- 10:01 – 13:33
Why They’re Not Getting Your Signals (And What to Do About It)
- JSJay Shetty
talking about this idea that let's say you're at a workout class. Let's say you're at a social space. Maybe it is a rooftop bar. Maybe it is a club.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
You want to signal to someone to make a move. You want to let them know that you find them attractive, that you'd like them to do something, but you wanna be subtle. You don't wanna give it away. How do you let someone know that they should make a move without giving it away?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay. I'm gonna give you news that you're probably not gonna like, but it's so important. It's a phenomenon called signal amplification bias. What this is, it's very well studied, that we tend to think we are over-obvious with our cues. So if you're in a, a bar, they literally studied singles in a, like, bar, nightclub setting. Women and men who think they are being obvious with their flirtation cues, the other person has no idea.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay?
- JSJay Shetty
That's so good.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
They even counted the number of flirtation signals. This was incredible research. They observed singles mingling, and they counted each person's flirtatious signals towards other people in the room. They found in 10 minutes, how many signals do you think it took for a woman to show a man she was interested? How many... In 10 minutes, how many signals did she have to send?
- JSJay Shetty
When it actually worked?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
When it, when it actually worked.
- JSJay Shetty
Now that you've given me some sort of-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Uh-oh. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
I'm gonna go 30.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
29.
- JSJay Shetty
Oh, okay, cool.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
But do you know how many signals that is in 10 minutes?
- JSJay Shetty
That's a lot of signals.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That is, that is pretty constant.
- JSJay Shetty
And if you didn't tell me, I probably would've guessed three.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
It was only because you gave me a sense that there was more, I probably would've said three, seven.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That is what women think-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... is it, what's needed. I sent three flirty glances, and he just didn't come over. He's not interested. No, he didn't see them, or he doubted himself, or he was like, "Was that a trick of my eye?" It took 29 signals in 10 minutes to get approached so the other person went, "Ah-She's interested. Just interested. That was before the, even the conversation started. So what are the flirty glances of availability? And this is what's most important, is in the same group of studies, they found that attractive women, the most attractive women, who were rated, uh, on their attractiveness, got approached less than unattractive women who didn't signal enough.
- JSJay Shetty
Fascinating.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So if you're an attractive woman and you don't signal enough, you won't be approached.
- JSJay Shetty
Do you have to approach more based on how objectively attractive you are?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
You have to be available more. So what they found, and this is ... So it's ridiculous that we're rating on attractiveness, but it helps us understand that sometimes I think we use attractiveness as an excuse. I'm not pretty enough or I'm not this enough. No. Actually, some unattractive women who signaled availability got approached more.
- 13:33 – 15:40
Want to Be More Attractive? Try Being More Available
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
and she's looking up through her eyes.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That is a look that we just like. We just like it. That's why we like it. So it's glancing around the room and then eye contact, away. Eye contact, away. Then it's little smiles. So look and little smile. And by the way, remember, it took 29 of these. [laughs] So we gotta get really comfortable with trying.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And the nice thing is there's no pressure. If he doesn't return the glance, he doesn't return the glance, right?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So, um, eye contact, smiles. Self-touch is also considered a flirty glance. So, like, if I play with my hair-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... or I play with my dress, that's a, a way of signaling our hair health [laughs] from a, from a evolutionary perspective. It's like, look how healthy I am, my healthy, long hair. I think it's one of the reasons why we tend to like long hair. Women will also, uh, when they're flirting, they'll touch their neck, their lips, or their chin. This actually releases pheromones. So the reason why sometimes m- women will touch their neck or touch their lips is because they're actually trying to release their scent, and scent is very, very important. It's important in dating, but it's also important in friendships. For example, it's a little bit off the side of dating, but I just wanna explain why smell is so important. I just read this study and I was like, what? They had women wear white T-shirts with no deodorant, no nothing, so just their natural smell, for 24 hours. They took these T-shirts and they had other women smell these T-shirts and rate the women on if they liked the smell. Okay? I'll ... Imagine you're opening a Ziploc bag-
- JSJay Shetty
Wow
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... and you're smelling a shirt. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
That's, uh, this is a painful study.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I would've loved it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. [laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay? I would've loved it. Sign me up, the researchers.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I'm there. So they had them smell the T-shirts, and they had them rate them on how much they liked the smell. Then they had all the women interact in person. They didn't know who was who. The smell they liked the best predicted who they liked the best in person.
- JSJay Shetty
No way.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So they actually found their people. There is something to it. So when you're self-touching like that-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... it's because we're trying to release this natural smell of like, I'm gonna probably click with you.
- JSJay Shetty
Right.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, there's that saying-
- JSJay Shetty
If you smell good
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... if you smell good. And good is, is-
- JSJay Shetty
Is subjective, yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... is, is subjective. Like, that's why I think why sometimes you're like, ah, we're just clicking.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
We, like, like each other's smell.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- 15:40 – 19:16
One Simple “Hey” That Can Spark a New Connection
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I'm gonna really encourage you to try it. I think the best way to show availability is one word, and it sounds like this: Hey.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Just that. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay? You walk to the bathroom, you walk to the bar, you walk by them, "Hey."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Just like that. Because look ... And by the way, this is for both men and women.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay? Because life is too short to not hey.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? And it, there's no pressure. If you walk by someone in the gym-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... right? And you're like, "Hey," even if they have their AirPods in, if they like you, they're gonna be like, "Hey."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right?
- JSJay Shetty
Does it matter the tone of voice?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
'Cause you say it in a-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No, it matters.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, it does matter.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It matters. It matters.
- JSJay Shetty
If, if you go like, "Hey," it's not like ...
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No, that's pretty good.
- JSJay Shetty
Okay. All right.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay.
- JSJay Shetty
Okay, that was-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So here ... I'll do good and bad now
- JSJay Shetty
... that was me trying to downplay it, you know? [laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No, that was good. That was good. See, men, men do good with a downward inflection.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- 19:16 – 22:06
Your Vibe Teaches People How to Treat You
- JSJay Shetty
thing. A lot of us, when you're attracted to someone, your heart rate goes up, you start breathing shallower, and you're about to say it in a re- like, you go, "Hey, hey."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Hey.
- JSJay Shetty
Like, we're like, that's the reaction because you're so nervous.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And this is why we don't have enough couples.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] Yeah, this is the reason.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs] This is the reason.
- JSJay Shetty
'Cause the way we're saying hey, yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah, be-
- JSJay Shetty
So what do we do when you're like-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay
- JSJay Shetty
... when you're feeling that, like, attraction, maybe you've even built up to it. You've been going to class every day for 30 days-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Ugh
- JSJay Shetty
... and this guy's turning up three times. You're trying to send the cue.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes. Okay. So luckily, one is now that you know it, it's gonna be very easy for you to hear yourself do it. So at home, if you wouldn't mind trying this with me. I want you to hear the highest end of your range versus the lowest end of your range. Everyone has a natural range. So first let's start with the highest. So take a deep breath and say hello at the top of your breath. Hello.
- JSJay Shetty
Hello.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That is our natural highest end of our range. I never want you to sound like that.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] I never sound like that.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
You don't. Right, maybe your dog.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? I see people go, "Hello" to their dog.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, maybe to a baby.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Fine.
- JSJay Shetty
Actually, you're right. To my niece and nephew.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Babies.
- JSJay Shetty
And they look at me like, "Stop talking to me like that."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Babies and dogs.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Totally fine.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Babies and dogs.
- 22:06 – 23:47
Speak with Power: Unlock Your Full Vocal Power
- JSJay Shetty
I think a lot of people listening right now, they might be thinking, "But I want to be accepted for who I am."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
What's the difference between who we are-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... and how we choose to present ourselves? Because I think people get confused. They go, "Oh, but I, I am that kind of person who's nervous and anxious and everything," but that's not who they are.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I don't believe in fake it till you make it. It's not a concept I've ever-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, me neither
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... resonated with. And so notice how I didn't say, "I want you to be like Elizabeth Holmes and go, 'Hey.'" I can't even do it. H- how did she do it?
- JSJay Shetty
I don't know. [laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
She was so, like, she faked-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... that low tone. No, I wanted you to find the lowest end of your natural tone.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
First is I don't believe in fake it till you make it. Second is I want you to sound like your most confident self. So f- if for you, that is a hey, cool, girl.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Cool. I'm for it, right? [laughs] Like, I will-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I... If that is you and that's how you go, I will take it. So I want you to feel like you, but I also want you to find your resonance point.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It's called a maximum resonance point.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's speaking with, and this is for both dating and work, that's speaking with this part of your voice that is open and full of power and volume and space. And don't we all wanna operate that way?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, I think everyone is more themselves when they have space in their bodies, when they're taking up their space, when they have breath, and that translates to everything.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It translates to my face. It makes my face more open. It makes my jaw more relaxed. It makes my shoulders more relaxed. So what I'm kind of hoping is we're finding that part of you that's like, ooh, resonance.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, that's where presence comes from.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, that's a great answer, and, and what's really good about it is also that if that person says hey back,
- 23:47 – 29:49
3 Conversation Starters That Actually Work
- JSJay Shetty
you're now not at this crazy level of-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... nervousness and anxiety where you can't... Now you're in shock-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... and now you don't even know how to respond.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
And then that ruins it. We were talking about one of my friends who's a comedian called Jared Freid. He has a podcast called You Up, and there was an episode where he was talking about sometimes it's hard to spark up a conversation with someone at a class and, and he was saying it's good to just go up to someone and say something likeTough class, right? Like, you know, whatever it may be. Like, something to find some mutual ground before you hit it off, and I think even that, saying that in this tone could help
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay, so I love this tip. So you say, "Hey," and, and, and it's like, "Hey, hey." Cool.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Then you wanna use... Again, I like a blueprint. I need specific groundwork. I don't like to guess. So here's your next step, is a context cue. So a context cue is when you use a conversation starter that's something that you both share. If you don't know someone, you don't know what you share, so the one thing you can share is the context you're in, right? So that could be, "How do you know the host?" if you're at a party.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? It could be, "How do you like the food? How do you like your wine? Oh, that coffee looks great. Wow, this is a tough class." Right? So it's something in context because actually that's a secret me too moment. So this is the next effect. So what we're fighting in dating, signal amplification bias. More signals are better. You are not being obvious, right? You think you're being obvious, you're not. It takes 29 signals. You can count them in your head if [laughs] you want, okay? So that's the first thing we're fighting. Once we've managed that and we're really clear, the second thing we're trying to meet is a psychological effect called the similarity attraction effect. What this is, is that we like people who have similar values and motivations as us. What's important about this is every time we have a me too moment, like, "Oh, we ha- what, what, we have that?" It builds, like, a little string between us.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, I literally envision when I'm in conversation, like, we're handing each other threads. I call it thread theory. Like, we're handing each other threads, and the more threads that are back and forth, the more connected we are.
- JSJay Shetty
Ooh, I like that. Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, that, that's the visual I use.
- JSJay Shetty
That's good.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So what is the very first question I said to you when I met you outside, was, "You know, I think we have some, some friends in common."
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Because I knew that that was a thread.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That we could be like, "Yes, we both love those people." And that made it just really easy. I didn't say, like, "How's the weather?"
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. [laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I didn't do that, right?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So whatever you can do to create as many me too moments as possible. That could be raving about a mutual friend. That could be raving about how great this class is. That could be, "Ugh, the wine is so delicious," or, "The wine is terrible." Right? [laughs] Like-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... either one. So all... Your entire goal in this part of the conversation is me too moments, and your questions should be geared towards that because here's where awkwardness happens. You're in a conversation and you have no goal. [laughs] You're like, kind of like, "What do you do? Where are you from?" You know, and it's like these scri- socially scripted dead-end conversation starters. So instead, I want your goal to be, I want to them to say, "Me too," or I wanna say, "Me too."
- JSJay Shetty
That's a great goal.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's it. And it's very low pressure 'cause all you're doing... And then your questions have intention, right? Like, if everything is on purpose, if everything is intention, then our questions are searching for similarities. And this is the last step, and this is for dating, for friendship, even a little bit for work relationships as well. The last step is, can you find authentic reasons to like them? And I mean aggressively like them. I think that awkwardness, the reason I was so awkward for so long is I was asking the wrong questions and I didn't know what to listen for. The last... This study completely changed my life, changed the way I interact. I was never a cool kid. [laughs] I was never popular. And I-
- 29:49 – 31:17
Making Friends Doesn’t Have to Be Hard
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
for it and-
- JSJay Shetty
I like that you did that and said that because I do the same thing.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Oh, do you?
- JSJay Shetty
So no, literally, it's exactly the same thing.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Can we be friends, Jay?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, I know, but like-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I like you. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
And that never hap- and I love that because to me it's... I, I have so many friends in LA that when I met them first time I said, "I think we'd be great friends, and I'd love, I'd love to see if that's true." And, like, now seven years later, whenever we're out and everyone will be like, "Oh, well, how did you two meet?" And then my friends will always try and be polite and be like, "Oh, yeah, we just met through..." And I'm like, "No, no, no. Let me tell the story."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
"I said that I liked you [laughs] and I wanted to be your friend." And-And I love living that way because I think it makes life so clear, it makes life so easy. Everyone knows where everyone's intentions are.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And if someone is too cool for me or doesn't like that, at least I know.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Also, like, I'm, I'm allergic to it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, I don't do well with too cool people.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, if you can't even show me your liking or you're kind of wanting to put a wall up, we're not gonna be good friends.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Because I love level three conversations. I like vulnerability, I like oversharing. So that's like a test also is like, "I think we would be good friends. I like you." And if they're like, "Ugh," I'm like, "Cool."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, that's cool. Like, I would rather take the shot than miss it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And so I think, like, if you're listening, I think it's, like, let's... If you like someone, like, show it. Search for those me too moments, and then if you like them... Well, first of all, search for reasons to like them. Then if you like them, say it. That right there is, like, the best way to try to find your people.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's gonna find them.
- 31:17 – 33:30
Why Compliments Alone Don’t Build Connection
- JSJay Shetty
The me too goal is a real switch because I think a lot of us when you approach someone, if you don't ask about the weather, you usually try and compliment someone, and that doesn't work. Vanessa, tell me why compliments don't work.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
We all want to be complimented, but it makes us feel very uncomfortable, right? Like, there's this weird compliment economics where it's like, "Please compliment me, but don't." It's weird, right? [laughs] And it also... It, it creates an odd hierarchy a little bit-
- JSJay Shetty
Right
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... where if you're complimenting someone, it separates you. And also, you're putting them in the position of receiving something they might not be ready for, especially I believe in if you're gonna compliment someone, compliment them some- on them on something that you share.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? So be like, "Oh my gosh, I have those shoes. I love them too," right? "Are we twinsies?"
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I mean, I guess men don't usually say twinsies. But like, like, "Oh, my gosh."
- JSJay Shetty
I'm gonna try it now that you've said it.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Try it. Try it.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Please try it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
"Twinsies."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Just, like, see how your male friends respond. They're gonna be like, "Yes." [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So I think that if you're gonna compliment, compliment on a shared similarity. Then you can kind of celebrate together.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
If you're complimenting someone one way, you're actually putting them farther away from you, not closer to you.
- JSJay Shetty
That distance and hierarchy makes so much sense, especially when someone's new. It's different if you know someone. But if you randomly go up to someone and go, "Oh, I really like the color of that dress"-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... what are they gonna say?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I'm like, "Thanks."
- JSJay Shetty
"Thanks," exactly. And now it's like, oh-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No, actually worse. Worse. If you were to say, "Oh, Vanessa, I like the color of your dress," I'd be like-
- JSJay Shetty
And I do, by the way. But yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... "Oh, thank you."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I'd be like, "I like your color too."
- 33:30 – 38:36
Break the Ice Without Sounding Like Everyone Else
- JSJay Shetty
And that's what I like about your goal. I really, really like that advice, and I hope everyone uses it. We're trying to get a me too, and you have to have a goal to every conversation. The goal cannot be, let me get to the next question-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's it
- JSJay Shetty
... which is usually where we get stuck, which is like I'm just gonna live in this, like, jumping relationship between, like-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Checklists. Do, do, do, do, do.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. And it's, and it's like, yeah, where did you grow up? What do you do for work? Do you have any siblings? Like, all these questions that just-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... you know.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay, so let's, let's, let's play this out.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Let's go even deeper.
- JSJay Shetty
Let's do it.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So let's say that someone's doing that to you.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay? So there's two sides of a conversation. All my students are high achievers, very smart, a little awkward sometimes. Mm, those are my people.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So what happens is they work on their people skills. They're like, "Yeah, Vanessa, like, I got it. I got, I got the context cues, I got my conversation starters. I'm available," [laughs] whether that's in work or at play. And then they're with someone who's doing that to them, right? You're with someone who's like, "So where are you from? W- uh, you have a lot of siblings?" Okay, so here's how you break that social script. One is I want you to think of, what are the three questions that you're asked most? So I have the same questions I'm asked over and over again in social s- social settings, and it's usually what do you do, where are you from, how'd you get into that line of work? That's a big one I get.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay. So the biggest mistake you can make is you are bored by those answers and you show it. "Oh, I'm from LA. Ugh. Mm. Mm." It's like, mer mer, right?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It's like-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... it, yes, yes, I'm from LA, but it, it ends the conversation. So w- I want you to think of, what's a way that you could answer that question that gives a hook or a story or it's a funny moment and it is a bridge to you asking them something else back?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
How can you answer those questions that's going to slightly shift or transform the conversation and makes you more charismatic? So I even think, like, if someone were to ask you how are you, you can answer it, "Oh, seven out of 10 today."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? Or like, "Better on the inside than the outside."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? Like, whatever it is. [laughs] Like, just, like, break the script.
- 38:36 – 40:48
Stop Trying to Be Interesting, Do This Instead
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
go well, right?
- JSJay Shetty
What- what I love about that is we often put so much pressure on people to be interesting, and pressure on ourselves to be interesting.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And we think it's about having this unique conversation starter or this amazing point of view or this debate that w- you know, it's... I- I feel like we put so much pressure, like we gotta start giving a TED Talk to the person-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... sitting next to us, and actually, that disengages them.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
I love the guessing game.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
I think it applies to any of those three questions you just shared.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah, all of them.
- JSJay Shetty
Of like where do you come from, where do you live now?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
All of that. And it makes it so much more fun, and you get a sense of what someone's personality is.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
And I like the interactivity. It's almost like, I'm sure you feel this way, when you're on stage a lot and you're talking to an audience, my least favorite thing is someone saying, "Give a 60-minute keynote and don't engage the audience in the conversation."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Totally.
- JSJay Shetty
Because all of a sudden it's one way, and I think that's what we think interesting conversations sound like, where we can just talk about our lives and come across interesting.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah. I also think it's so much pressure to be interesting, because what is interesting is different for different people. And so if you're trying to be interesting, it's worse than fake it till you make it. It's what do I have to do to perform for you? And I don't think interactions should be a performance. They should be intentional and you're building towards something, which is do I belong? Do I feel accepted by you?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And this is like a question that I want everyone to ask themselves, especially when you think about those first impression words. Sometimes people who trigger you badly, it's because you don't feel safe. I don't mean necessarily physically safe, I mean emotionally safe, where there's, um, topics that you're a little scared to bring up, or there's things you walk on eggshells 'cause you just don't know how that's gonna go. And so the other test you have as you're doing this back and forth, you're getting to know them, is do I feel safe to share my real answer? Do I feel safe to answer something that's not on script?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's like not what everyone else would answer. Do I feel safe to not be interesting? Right? Like if we have this pressure of being interesting, it's a performance. If you're like, "I'm just gonna answer and like this may or may not like click with you," then that's the ultimate belonging, I think.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah. What
- 40:48 – 44:32
The Art of a Smooth and Respectful Exit
- JSJay Shetty
if, what if you're in one of these conversations and you want it to end?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Oh, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Where like you're just like, "I want this to end. I've been looking around."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
"I'm trying to just edge towards the door, like side step."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Oh, I got you.
- JSJay Shetty
Like I'm trying to figure it out, but like this guy's hitting on me, this girl's talking to me, this person's just wasting my time. I'm in this bar, I'm in this gym.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay.
- JSJay Shetty
What would I do?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
This is called the art of a graceful exit. [laughs] And it is a skill. You have to learn it, because there is gonna be times where you're just not with your person, and that's okay. Okay, so here's what you do. It's three steps. Okay, step number one is you begin to non-verbally signal that you want out, okay? So we're, we kind of subconsciously pick up on these cues. So first is you wanna point your toes towards the door. When we're aligned with someone, we typically angle our toes towards the person. When we're not into someone, we typically angle our body and our toes outwards. Funny anecdote here is we also tend to ang our, angle our toes towards the person we have a crush on-
- JSJay Shetty
Oh
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... or the most interesting person in the room. So whenever I'm like at office parties, I can almost always decide the office crushes.
- JSJay Shetty
Fascinating, magical.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Because people will subconsciously, even if they're in conversation, they'll be pointing towards the person they like the most. So when you move your toes towards the door, it's just... it subtly indicates that your body is angled outwards. And then I also want you to make less eye contact, right? So that could be an overhead gaze. I would never normally do this in a good conversation, but you wanna s- s- subtly signal to someone, "I need a break," right? "I need to break off." So then you're overhead gazing. You're gonna glance at the door or the bathroom. That is also another very small signal, "Oh, I'm disengaged." Okay, so that's step one is non-verbally signal. Second is you're gonna use verbal cues. The thing that I want you to do is ask for future plans. When someone is in a conversation-
- JSJay Shetty
Yes
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... they're very present. When I would like to go, I'll be like, "What's your plan tomorrow?"
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
"Got any big plans for the weekend?" Because wait, this is step number three. They're gonna then answer, you know, what is their plan tomorrow, what is the plan for the weekend. Then I'll be like, "Well, have so much fun-
- JSJay Shetty
Yes
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... tomorrow or this weekend. It was so great talking to you and I'll see you later."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Three steps.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And the final step is just wish them well-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... on those future plans. Thank them for the conversation. Give them a handshake or a high five and then say, "I'll see you later."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, that's great because you can't always just be like, "Oh, I'm just gonna go get dessert," 'cause you might not be... You can't be like, "Oh, I'm leaving."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Or, "Oh, well I'll coming with... I'll come with you."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs] "I'll come with you."
- 44:32 – 47:41
Use These Nonverbal Cues to Steer the Conversation
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
67%.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Longer, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
That makes so much sense. I do it in the podcast all the time.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
And I've actually been in podcasts where the interviewer, some interviewers are trained not to nod at all, and I find it really hard to talk to someone like that.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Agreed
- JSJay Shetty
... where I have to talk. And yeah, if I speak to someone who's not nodding at all, I find it really challenging.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It's, it's ... So this is a really important thing, is when we're talking about cues, there's a cycle. It goes decode, encode, internalize.
- JSJay Shetty
Ooh.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So you are s- sending me cues. That is called encoding. So encoding is sending signals to someone else. You're sending me signals of warmth. Nodding is a warmth cue. Head tilting is a warmth cue, right? So that's warmth. So you encode me that signal. I decode it. "Ah, he likes this answer." I internalize it. Keep talking. And so this cycle goes on and on. If someone is stoic or mute or they under-signal, it kinda breaks that cycle.
- JSJay Shetty
Right.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And it isolates the other person. I work with a lot of leaders, and they're, they wonder why their team doesn't, like, open up to them [laughs] or why they're seen as intimidating or cold, and it's because they ha- they are under-signaling. They are not sending enough warmth signals to make the other person feel like there's this connection. The other way that decoding, encoding, internalizing works is negative cues. So muting is one. It stops the cycle. Positive is the next, where we're like, "Ah, this is going well." Negative is the other one. So there was a research study. They wanted to know if, how negative cues affect someone's physiology. So they devised a little experiment where they had a participant walk into a room of a bunch of other people, and they had someone in the room, a confederate, signal a sign of social rejection. So a social rejection cue is an eye roll. It's a scoff. Right? It's like a, a lip purse. They had them signal this towards this unsuspecting participant. And what they found was, once the participant, the moment they spotted the social rejection cue, their own field of vision increased. Their pupils dilated. What happens when that, when our pupils dilate is we can take in more of our environment. Like, our, literally their field of vision increased. Why? If we see a cue of social rejection, our brain is like, "Uh-oh, is anyone else signaling social rejection?"
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
"What did I do wrong, and where's my escape route?" Meaning that if we spot a negative cue, it changes our body.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So if you're in an interview or on a date and you're like, "I don't f- I don't some- I don't feel great about this," listen to that, 'cause that is your body language reading part of your mind that picked up on a negative cue that your brain doesn't like. It could've been a subtle cue of social rejection. It could've been a vocal cue change that you didn't notice. It could be a, a negative facial expression or gesture. So for example, in that study, they were doing social rejection cues. But they even found if someone flashes a fear microexpression at you, so they widen the whites of their eyes and like that, w- we catch the fear. Like, our own amygdala begins to fire. And so if you feel uneasy with someone, listen to it, because it means that your body has picked up on something that it did not like that was a threat, and you should dig deeper into that.
- JSJay Shetty
So let's say you, you were at the gym.
- 47:41 – 54:28
Spot Inauthentic Behavior Before It Costs You
- JSJay Shetty
You said, "Hey." They said hey back. You ended up going out a couple of dates, right?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
You've graduated from the gym to a restaurant or a coffee shop-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... or whatever. And now you're on a date with that person, and you're trying to figure out whether they're lying or telling the truth.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
You're trying to figure out whether you feel good around them or not.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And you don't really figure that out until third or fourth date anyway-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
For sure
- JSJay Shetty
... 'cause f- you don't really know enough. You're not getting enough cues-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... going back to your point, especially if you're spending time with people in a very limited environment.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Totally.
- JSJay Shetty
So if you're seeing someone in a coffee shop or a restaurant or going to the movies or whatever it may be, you're seeing them for one and a half hours, two hours, and it's controlled.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
You start to spend more time with them.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
What are the negative cues we miss because we're infatuated or attracted to someone?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
The research shows that it takes 200 hours to become close friends with someone. So a soul, a soulmate or a partner, it's even more. That's a lot of hours, and we tend to make very big decisions about a relationship in the first six hours. Not enough. And so what you said was really important is, first is I want you to get off script. Coffee shops, restaurants, those are very controlled environments. They've probably done those dates a lot. I want you to get off script. I want you to do what I call the car challenge, which is I want you to drive somewhere an hour away with them. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] Oh, wow.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay?
- JSJay Shetty
That's a lot of trust.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah. It's a ... Well, so you had three or four dates.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? And you're like, "Okay, I want to-"
- JSJay Shetty
You gotta be safe. Yeah, you gotta feel safe.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah, gotta feel safe, right? So, but, but you're like, "Is this clicking? Are we clicking?" You might just be on script. It might be, like, just it's, it's too vanilla. It's too the same. Or maybe you are picking up on something. So the road trip challenge is when you pick somewhere an hour awayThat's a different activity. It could be hiking, it could be pickleball, it could be art class, it could be a wine tasting. Anything that's not restaurant or coffee shop, normal things. You have an hour there, about an hour activity, two hour activity, and an hour back. You're gonna find out in that setting how they drive or how they listen to you, how they stop, stop and get gas [laughs] stop and pick up some snacks. Like, we're trying to see them in a lot of different environments. How do they treat people? How do they treat your space? You wanna see them off script. That's the very first thing. Then you're gonna be looking for what I call cues of inauthenticity. Cues of inauthenticity is when your verbal does not match your nonverbal, and this is what liars do. So we do a lot of lie detection at Science of People because I'm fascinated by what are the cues that humans do when they're not telling the truth, and all of the lie detection cues are when there's incongruence. It means someone is saying something, but they're not showing it. So nodding is a good example of this. So we've found ... We, we have a little game we play with people in our lab where we ask them two truths and a lie. Share two truths about yourself and one lie. Sometimes people will say yes but shake their head no, [laughs] or say no but shake their head yes. That's an incongruence, and liars will often do this. So you'll ask, you know, "So what do you think of the new girl?" "You know, she's, um, she's great."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And they're shaking their head-
- 54:28 – 57:48
Why People-Pleasing Feels Safer But Actually Holds You Back
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Uh, but, but you know what's really interesting about that is I think sometimes we all know that ... I know that there's a big difference between what you're sharing and teaching and people-pleasing.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
There's a big difference.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
But to the untrained eye, it's a fine line where people are now trying to get a reaction-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... and therefore they're starting to say things-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... that they may not mean, which is not what you're suggesting at all.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I also think, like, I look at people-pleasing as our deep desire to be liked.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It is so safe for us to be liked. And so when I look at the research ... So research from Princeton University found that as humans, we are trying to answer two basic questions about other human beings: Can I trust you, and can I rely on you? We are constantly trying to assess people's warmth and competence. Warmth and competence makes up 82% of our judgements of people. 82%. And so warmth is actually what we're talking about here, in that-Most people have an imbalance of warmth and competence. We're very high in warmth, maybe not as high in competence, or we're signaling a lot of warmth, but not signaling enough competence. Highly warm folks, people who are off the charts in warmth, their primary desire is to be liked. Highly competent folks, this is a lot of my students, they want to be right. So a highly competent person, they're very at work, they wanna be on agenda, they wanna get it right.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
You know you're in a relationship with a highly competent person if they constantly Google fact-check you.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? They're less concerned about you liking them, but they just wanna make sure they get the facts right.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
A highly warm person wants you to like them, which means they often sacrifice their credibility to be liked.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That is actually what people-pleasing is, in my opinion.
- JSJay Shetty
Right.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I think people-pleasing is-
- JSJay Shetty
Right
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... someone who goes, "I so wanna be liked that I'm willing to throw my competence [laughs] out the window-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... just so that you like me." They're sacrificing the need to be liked for their need to be respected.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I say to people-pleasers, what true communication is is showcasing both. You can be both liked and respected. You can be both friendly and credible. You can be assertive and also be nice.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
One of my most popular videos is A Nice Person's Guide to Being Assertive, because you don't have to sacrifice one for the other. And so for my people-pleasers, what I would say is, your goal sure is to be liked, but it's also to make sure that people respect who you are and your values. So if you're having conversations with me too moments, what you're actually doing is, "Do you value that?"
- 57:48 – 1:00:04
How to Tell If Someone’s Lying (Without Saying a Word)
- JSJay Shetty
And we do it, and people do it to us.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Right? Like, if we're all honest, like, everyone kind of does it. Someone may overtly do it on a date especially, especially in the beginning-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes
- JSJay Shetty
... and then you realize afterwards that they didn't really know what that was or loved that type of food or-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Or you accidentally have lied.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And they pick up on your lie.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? So you're like, "I, I love cats. I love them." Now, I'm allergic to cats, but if I'm like, "I just love a cat."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And the other person's like, "Ugh." And they got this signal in their body that was like, "I don't, I don't know about this person." But actually it was 'cause you were just trying to be likable.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And I would much rather you say, "You know what? I love the idea of cats too."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
"But I'm allergic."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? And then everyone laughs-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... and it's okay, right? And if that's a deal breaker for them, wouldn't you rather know?
- JSJay Shetty
Totally.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, in dating especially, I would rather you create allergies for the person.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So my approach to dating, I have a couple of single friends, is I'm like, "Don't be liked by everyone. Don't have a profile or go on a first date and try to be the most liked person. In fact, if you have things that really matter to you, share them up front." I had a friend who was trying to date and was having a lot of trouble, and I'm like, "What are you putting in your profile a- about you?" And it was the most vague, generic, like, "I love beaches."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
It's like, everybody likes a beach.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, everybody likes that. You know, she had all of it. And I said, "Get really specific. You know, like, you love beaches, but what do you hate?"
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
She's like, "I hate camping." I'm like, "Say it."
- 1:00:04 – 1:03:46
When Narcissists Feel Like the Most Charismatic People
- JSJay Shetty
I wanna go into the part you mentioned there of manipulation.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
Because I think people who are charismatic and narcissist often have quite similar traits.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
Or at least today we talk about them in that way.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And it's hard, because some people just have that power and control and feel like they're almost moving everyone else around like they're pawns. And often it can be quite magnetic. We can be quite drawn to it at first, because it feels... Yeah, it feels like there's awe and reverence, and there's this feeling of, wow, you blow me away, and-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... you have so much magnetic energy, only to realize it was manipulation and narcissism. How do we tell the difference between charisma and narcissism?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
This is why I like the CAR test, is typically narcissists have a pattern. Narcissists blow you away with their charisma at first. You are just in awe. They know how to signal warmth and competence. They're finding me too moments. You're like, wow, I'm clicking. And their confidence is contagious. We love to be around highly confident people, which often narcissists are very confident. So in that first hour, two, three hours, we're blown away. Then typically they go one of two ways. The first way is narcissists, if they don't get what they want, even a little bit, they go into victim mode. So nar- there's, there's a misunderstanding about narcissists, which is that they're always confident. When a narcissist doesn't get what they want or doesn't get what they feel they deserve, and listen for that word with narcissists, "I don't deserve this kind of treatment. I deserve something better. I'm worth more." Be very aware of those words. If they don't feel like they get what they deserve or, or they're not getting what they're worth, they become victims. Listen for that victim language, because narcissistsWill sometimes be very charismatic, but they're playing the victim card. And the victim card is really dangerous because then it's everyone else's fault, and then all of a sudden you're enabling it. You're like, "Well, I have to protect you. You're so charismatic." And that's how they are manipulative with people is they play the victim card, and you wanna protect them.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So be very careful of that dynamic because I think that we often are like, "Well, she's not a narcissist, she's suffering."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
"She needs my help." Hmm, that is often actually a narcissist, is they're playing the victim because they want your help, and that makes them feel good. That's one pattern. The second pattern is that narcissists can be high-conflict people. A high-conflict person is they're very charismatic, and they blow you away with their charisma, but they create all these little disagreements, fights. They create conflict around them, and they step, and they back up, and they go, "I don't know. I don't know how that happened." But they're constantly stirring or stoking conflict. Watch out for that.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's the other reason why those car trips, getting out of restaurants and coffee shops is it's very easy to not have conflict in those very controlled settings. But if someone cuts you off on the road or someone shortchanges you or someone's late, you get to see, oh, wow, they play victim or, um, they're creating conflict where there doesn't really need to be conflict. So then when they're brainstorming in the car... 'cause there's something that happens when you're next to someone.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I think they verbalize differently. Like, typically women like to dyad, have conversation like this, face to face. Men sometimes like to have conversations side by side. It's why they like talking at a bar. It's 'cause they're side by side. They like talking on a walk or a hike. They like talking in a car. So sometimes if you're next to someone and they're just driving or you're driving and they're listening, they'll say things they wouldn't normally say in a, in a face-to-face dyad. And you might hear, "Oh, that's interesting, those patterns. I, I didn't know that you felt that way about that thing." And so you wanna make sure that you're looking for those secret patterns of manipulators, not just the obvious ones.
- 1:03:46 – 1:04:45
Want to Really Get to Know Someone? Take a Road Trip
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. That, I mean, that... What you just said there about the way we sit and speak to people, it's a lot more easy to be open with someone if you're not staring eye to eye.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Absolutely.
- JSJay Shetty
Especially for men, I assume.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
And there's a sense of... Yeah, there's a sense of we're kind of moving in the same direction rather than against each other-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... that kicks in. I think there was a s- there was a story about how Steve Jobs always used to do walking meetings like that.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
He always wanted to walk side by side with people.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes. Yes, so I, um, like, w- with friends, I... or b- even if business friends come into town, I always ask for a walk and talk.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Always. And I never say, "Let's get coffee." I'm always like, "Let's get tacos."
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, just to, like, break it up, break the script a little bit. And I do find there's something about walking and movement-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... that also you have more breath. You're looking around. I, I have a secret feeling that when I walk and talk with someone, they're more creative.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
They're, like, more open-minded. Like, they, they go places that we could never have gotten, I swear we could have never gotten over a coffee.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
- 1:04:45 – 1:08:23
How Dopamine Makes You More Memorable
- JSJay Shetty
I, I think the big thing I'm taking away is this off-script idea.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
It's this breaking the script. It's interrupting the pattern.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Because we're all so caught up in our patterns. And by the way, that makes you boring as well.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Totally.
- JSJay Shetty
It makes you less interesting. Just as you said earlier, if you're being asked the same three questions, it's hard to answer them in an interesting way. It's hard to make how many siblings you have-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs] Right
- JSJay Shetty
... an interesting conversation on the 37th time over coffee.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
But when they're guessing, it's always interesting. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Exactly. And that's wh- and that's what I love, how you've interrupted the pattern, whether that's through the questions you ask, whether that's through gamification, whether it's through changing the path, the way you're connecting.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And also, let's get to the chemistry of this. When you give an exciting answer or a different answer, you are creating dopamine. Now, dopamine does a lot of things in our bodies, but in conversation, dopamine is the chemical of motivation and excitement. So if I asked you a question or answered a question in a different way, I highlighted a neu- a new neural pathway. My brain went, ooh, something new. And that dopamine does a couple things. One, it gets you excited. It makes you feel more positive. Two, it... Dr. John Medina found that dopamine makes you more memorable.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So if you're in conversation and someone's gone on 50 first dates or, like, you're in a business meeting... This, especially in business, I say to people, "Create dopamine in the boardroom." You've gotta make your presentation stand out. You've gotta create dopamine in an interview. If you're pitching, I work with a lot of entrepreneurs, you've gotta create dopamine in those investors. Because dopamine is what makes the brain go, "Oh, this person gave me pleasure. I wanna remember them."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
When you trigger dopamine, people are more likely to remember your name, what you talked about, and what you care about.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So if you wanna be more memorable, the best thing you can do is try to create excitement moments for the both of you. Me too moments are typically excitement. That's the secret motivation about why I want you to have me too moments, and then also sharing stories. I kind of have, like, a story toolbox. I, like, keep all my favorite stories in a little note on my phone 'cause I just like telling them, you know? And so, like, start collecting or cataloging stories 'cause that, those are gifts for people. You tell a good story, someone's like, "Ha."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. [laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, they, like, love it. Um, and then lastly is juice excitement. So when we talk about conversation starters, I have a couple favorites. So if you're gonna stop asking, "What do you do? Where are you from?" I love context cues. The other thing you can do with people you already know, especially at work, is ask, "Working on anything exciting these days?" So, like, I had this problem where I would see people who I kind of knew, like friends of friends or, like, family members I don't see all the time, and I'd be like, [smacks lips] "How's life?"
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs] You know, like, "What do you do?" So now I always ask, "Working on anything exciting these days?" That is a dopamine gift for their brain.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
'Cause in their brain then they have to go, "Oh," you broke their script. Exciting, exciting, exciting. They're literally searching their brain for something exciting. When they find it, they go, "Oh, yeah, you know, actually..." and they tell you.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So you're actually, like, juicing dopamine. You're borrowing it from another area of their life. And by the way, if they say no, what a great opportunity for vulnerability.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, I've asked it maybe one out of every 10 times. I'll say, "Working on anything exciting or have anything exciting coming up?" And they'll be like [sighs] No.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And I'll be like, "Wow. What, what's going on?"
- 1:08:23 – 1:10:51
Every Answer Can Be a Gateway to Connection
- JSJay Shetty
that you gave the alternative because I've had a lot of people that I've, I've asked that question to lately-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... and they actually feel so much pressure.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
Because I think we're living at this time now where everyone's doing something so big-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... which is what it looks like.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And so then when you ask someone that, they're scared that they don't have something big to say.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Totally.
- JSJay Shetty
And so they either shrink, and they actually get scared of that conversation. They go, "I don't really wanna talk about that." I, I get a lot of that sometimes. Or someone will like, "Oh, that's a lot of pressure. Exciting?"
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
"I'm just trying to get by."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Right? Like, that happens.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
And it's interesting that even though it's such a better question than what do you do, how's life, how's it going, it can create some friction. And so I really like talking about it when it doesn't go your way.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So I just wanna acknowledge, it takes courage to break scripts.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I know scripts are comfortable. Like, I know that the reason why we're like, "How are you? Good" is because it's safe.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And so I want you to just acknowledge yourself if you're thinking about asking these questions, like, it does take some social courage. But it's worth it.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And so yeah, we gotta harness, like, okay, it might be uncomfortable. You m- someone might not have a good answer to that or a good answer. I wouldn't say good answer. They might not have a, an exciting answer or they might be more vulnerable, but any answer is an opportunity for connection.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Whatever they say, at least it's not a social script.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And your other option, so you can accept it with vulnerability, "Oh my gosh, tell me, tell me what's... Is, is it been hard? What's going on?" Or you can have your own answer. So I've asked someone that question and they're like, "Huh?" And they kind of are thinking about it. And I go, "Well, while you're thinking about it, here's what's exciting with me."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And then, and then I, I take the ball back.
- 1:10:51 – 1:13:10
How Asking Better Questions Inspires Growth
- JSJay Shetty
to answer it.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I also, like, I just wanna make a, like a push here-
- JSJay Shetty
Please
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... if, if, if someone's willing to be brave, which is we are more interesting and exciting when we do exciting, interesting things. This means getting off social media. This means not watching the show everyone else is watching. This means getting up and trying different things. And so I also, like, a little side, like, just, ah, like I just wanna, like, share with the world is, like, may we all be always working on something a little exciting or a little interesting for ourselves. And if the side benefit is we have great conversations, great. When you become known for asking these questions, you also inspire others to do something a little bit courageous. And so for example, I have a friend that always, always, whenever we get together, he always asks, "What are you learning?" And the first time he asked me that question, I was like, "Huh?" [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I was like, "I'm learning to survive-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... [laughs] my kids." But now I know he's gonna ask me that question, and you know what? I'll be darned, I learn something every time before I see him.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, I will go find something to learn, and you know what? That makes me better.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, he had the courage to ask me that question for the first time and me not have a good answer. And he, he rescued me. He, he talked about what he was learning. But now I am better for that question because I wanna learn something every time I see him. And speaking of work, I noticed... So my team is all over the world. Yay, Science of People team. We're all over the world, and I notice that... We have a team call virtually on Tuesdays. I noticed that, like, the first five minutes of our call was, like, this, like, kind of small talk, like a little bit negative, kinda awkward. And so I thought, you know what? We're gonna have a new routine that the moment we get on the call we all share tell me something good.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And so our team meeting always starts with tell me something good. We go around and everyone shares something good, something small, something big. And not only does it make our team call so much more interesting because I learn the most interesting things about my team, but also one of my team members told me that Monday is her do something good day-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... because she wants to have something good to share in the meeting.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So, like, be the person known for it. Like, do an icebreaker in your team meetings. I set an icebreaker every Monday in my newsletter. Every Monday I have a work appropriate, somewhat exciting, kinda interesting icebreaker that's a gift to you.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So, like, be the person known for bringing those icebreakers. And people might grumble, they might roll their eyes, but you know what? Secretly they like it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, of course they do.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Secretly they like it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And if they don't, they're not your person.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- 1:13:10 – 1:15:10
Discover Your Social Battery: Introvert, Extrovert, or Ambivert?
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] What was this week? Do you know w-what-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... give me some of the cues there.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So, like, um, I always try to think of something that's, like, breaking the script but a little interesting. So, like, I think that this week was, um, are you an introvert, ambivert, or extrovert?
- JSJay Shetty
Got it.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Very helpful, by the way. [laughs] Like, you should know in your friend group and your work team who is an introvert, extrovert, or ambivert, because introverts get energy from being alone. And especially at work, they are more creative alone. So the worst thing you can do to an introvert is have a brainstorm meeting where you don't tell them what you're brainstorming. So you bring them into the room, and you're like, "Okay, guys, let's brainstorm all the big ideas for next year." And they're like... They're trying to think in their head. If you would just give them a little warning beforehand, they would come very prepared. So you should know who needs that warning time. Extroverts get energy from being with people. Now, at work how this shows up is if an extrovert has a good day, they wanna celebrate with people. They wanna hop on a call, they wanna pop by your office, they wanna chitchat your ear off. Good to know. If they have a bad day-They also wanna call you-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... to chat or stop by your office. And so you need to know who's their person. It shouldn't be an introvert. And so this is, like, pair the extroverts together, [laughs] right? Like, I have a, a b- wonderful sales team, and they are my extroverts. And I'm not an extrovert. I'm an ambivert. And so they have a Slack channel that I don't even know how to log into Slack.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] Me too.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right? Like, I c- I cannot. I cannot Slack.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I don't know if it's a verb or it's a noun, but I can't do it. But they love it, and they're all extroverts together. And so I'm like, "Go be extroverts, my salespeople. Yes." So you should be very purposeful. So that question, and at what my readers have told me, is it's sparking-
- JSJay Shetty
Yes
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... these conversations of, like, how can I serve you?
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, you're an introvert, so if you're having a bad day, do you want space? Like, introverts, if you give them bad news, and then you're like, "Any questions? Wanna talk it through?" They're like, "No."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So the best thing is, like, give them the bad news and be like, "Like, why don't you take a day or two. We'll regroup on Thursday." So, like, just the way that we communicate, if we just talk about it, we're honoring everyone. We're serving everyone.
- JSJay Shetty
I've always struggled with that because everyone
- 1:15:10 – 1:19:07
You Might Be an Ambivert and That’s a Superpower
- JSJay Shetty
in my life thinks I'm an extrovert.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I n- yeah, but I-
- JSJay Shetty
But I-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No
- JSJay Shetty
... get energy when I'm alone. I work on my own. I don't like working groups and brainstorms.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Totally.
- JSJay Shetty
It's not my vibe.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Totally.
- JSJay Shetty
I have to dive deep on my own.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
I like dealing with problems on my own.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
So I'm not, but I'm not an introvert. I'm an ambivert.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Why? What's the difference?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay, so 80% of people are ambiverts, so it's actually most people. Very few people are true introverts and true extroverts. We don't talk about ambiversion enough. Ambiversion is a superpower. Ambiversion means that around the right people, you get energy, and around the wrong people, you lose energy. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
I'm in.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah. A- and around the right situations, you get energy. Okay, so if you're an ambivert, it also means ambiverts are able to dial up. Right? This is why oftentimes ambiverts are mistaken as, like, outgoing introverts-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... or, like, social introverts, which is, you can dial, right? Like, you can dial for two hours. But, like, if I go to a happy hour, and people are always like, "What are you talking about awkward?" They don't know that I spent two hours flat on my back in the hotel room. [laughs] Do you know what I mean? Like, they don't see the recharge process 'cause ambiverts have this power. We can dial up, and we can mirror and match. Ambiverts are usually highly empathetic. We are chameleons. We are social chameleons. So ambiverts have this amazing skill where they can dial up to match an extrovert energy. They can be the life of the party if they want to, but they also can have these beautiful, quiet, introvert conversations. But they need a lot of recharge time in between.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And so I say it's a superpower, and you just know how to, h- what charges your social battery more or less.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I will say, for ambiverts, our biggest struggle is ambivalence. Extroverts can like everyone. They can find something good about everyone. Even with a person who is meh, they can still get energy because they are fun.
- JSJay Shetty
Oh, yeah, I've got friends like that.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, I have a friend who is dating right now, and she always says, "You know, I never know on a date if, if we're having fun or I'm just fun."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] I have a friend that I say, I'm like, "You could have dated or married anyone."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs] Yes.
- 1:19:07 – 1:22:30
The Two Ways Friendships Evolve Over Time
- JSJay Shetty
wanna react to those.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Uh.
- JSJay Shetty
Two thoughts that came to mind to the first part you talked about, I always like to remind people that there's two ways of growing in a friendship. There's growing together, and there's growing apart.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Only those two?
- JSJay Shetty
Notice how, notice how they both say growing.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs] Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Right? But when we're growing apart, we think we lost something, or we think it ended, or we think we failed. And it's like, no, that was growth, too, and there was growing together. But we think if you're growing together, then it's going right, and if you're growing apart, it's grow- going wrong. And it's like, no, there's growth. And so I always like to remind myself that. But to your other point, I think it's because time has become more valuable, and our self-awareness has risen at the same time as we value time. So I'm the same. I now find it much more frustrating to watch a bad show in the evening and feel like I wasted three hours of my evening-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... than I ever did before.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
So I don't know if it's an ambivert thing or a personal- or an age thing or... I just know that I'm like, like, me and my wife went back and forth on that a couple of years ago, where I was just like-I'm not getting anything out of this
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's it
- JSJay Shetty
... like, if we wanna do something together, I wanna do something that helps us connect and go deep.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
Or I'd rather go read and work, to be honest, because I'd get so much more out of that-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... than I would out of sitting here and watching nothing.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
You know?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah, and I, and I, I feel-
- JSJay Shetty
Unless it's a great show, obviously.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Of course.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And that, and that's magic.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And that's-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, totally
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... and, and, and so I think that, like, I'm having a, a personal struggle with this right now where I have some beautiful friendships, but sometimes I'm having conversation and I'm wondering if we're getting anywhere. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Which is, I feel bad. I'm like, I, I don't wanna be productive in a friendship, but, like, I wanna, like, like, s- figure each other out or, like, let's be laughing or I... And so sometimes I'm like, "Where are we going?"
- 1:22:30 – 1:25:20
Choose Friends Who Inspire Awe
- JSJay Shetty
I've found great relationships to not having the same exact value. I actually think it's very rare to truly have the same exact values.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Because push comes to shove, you're gonna choose something over the other.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
But I've found that the best relationships I have are with people who respect my values and I respect theirs.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's it.
- JSJay Shetty
So we don't even have to agree.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
But I really value that your value makes you you, and so I respect it.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
And you value that my value makes me me and you respect it, and that allows us to operate in our own universe and world but have a mutual sense of appreciation.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I think that also brings up a point of, like, I think that we should be... One of my favorite emotions that we don't talk about enough is awe.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
If you respect someone else's value, like, hopefully you could even be awed by it. Like, I have friends who have an incredible work ethic.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Do- I don't work that hard, right? Like, [laughs] I, I work, but, like, I do a lot with my family. Like, I spend a lot of time mommy. Most of my time in the week, I only spend about 15 hours a week working. The rest of my-
- JSJay Shetty
That's amazing
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... w- work is mommy. But I so respect my friends who just, they just kill it. They're always working, and there's a little bit of awe there. I'm like, "Wow," like, "you're just killing it." And so I think that, like, it's who can create awe for you-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... where they're so kind that you're awed by them. They're so driven that you're awed by them. They're so warm that you're awed by them. And so I think that, like, that's a good way to think of it is it's not the same. It's that you respect them enough, and you have some me too moments of course, but, like, you can have a little bit of awe in all your relationships. Even, like, in my marriage, I do conversation starters with my husband all the time, and, um, one of the ones we did recently, it was in my newsletter, which is who is your role model, which is different than who is your hero. Like, hero is, like, more of, like, a, like, idolizing them, whereas, like, a role model is someone that you maybe aspire to be like. And he said, "Me." And I was like, "What? Why?"
- JSJay Shetty
Wow.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And he was like, "You know, you just, you're, you're, you're you and I love that about you." And I was like, wow, like, this, it's so important that we're awed by our partners. And so when you're dating, I think a good little litmus test for yourself is, am I inspired by this person?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, am I in awe of who they are or what they do or what they believe? Because if the answer is yes, that's a keeper.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, that's a keeper. It's more important than a checklist.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. [laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
All my ladies listening, I, look, I know we love a checklist-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... but those checklists don't always serve us.
- 1:25:20 – 1:33:09
The Double Standard Faced by Highly Competent Women
- JSJay Shetty
gosh. I wanted to talk a bit about women in the workplace.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Because I think, and, and as you just talked about, you know, being a working mom, and I think about women in the workplace, and I think about how cues and body language are very different in how we perceive men and women.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
And whenever I speak to women they'll say, "I get seen as being difficult instead of being direct."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
"I'm seen as being argumentative as opposed to being assertive."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
"I'm seen as being moody as opposed to just having a, a failed, rejected day-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Sure
- JSJay Shetty
... or whatever would have happened."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Sure.
- JSJay Shetty
"And I feel like the standards are different."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
What does a woman do when she feels that her directness is being seen as difficulty?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
So women are actually facing two challenges in the workplace today. One is exactly what you said, that we can be seen as bossy or dominant when we're actually just stating our point of view. Assertiveness is bossiness. But on the other hand, we're also struggling with, uh, being too likable, being interrupted, being underestimated.... being too soft. And so we actually have two sides that we're trying to weigh. We have this very narrow valley we're allowed to operate in, right? Can't be too friendly, can't be too smiley, can't be too likable because you won't be taken seriously. Oh, but can't be too assertive, can't be too dominant or else you'll be seen as bossy. So we have this super narrow lane with which we can operate in. So what I think is really, really important is focusing on the two traits that matter. These are the only two traits that matter, which are warmth and competence. When we are with someone who signals, "You can trust me, you can like me, I am open to you, and you can rely on me, I'm productive, I'm capable," those are in that valley, and they are the most important signals that you can have in anything, video calls, Slack, your LinkedIn profile. And so I wanted... This is a really weird challenge I want you to start with. We have the power of AI now. This is a new thing that has just come up. I want you to open up your favorite AI tool, and I want you to do th- two things. I want you to copy and paste your LinkedIn profile. I want you to put it in AI and ask AI, "How warm and competent am I?" What's incredible is the warmth and competence research that came out of Princeton, which was done by Dr. Susan Fiske, it was done in 2002, and it's been replicated. It's a very solid piece of research. AI models are trained in it. They know about warmth and competence. So put it in AI, ask, "How am I coming across, warm or competent?" AI will tell you based on the words you use. Then ask it, make it more warm and competent, and just see what they change. Then what I want you to do is take five important emails that you've recently sent. What we don't realize is our cues are changing the way people treat us. So the types of words you use in your emails are changing people's perception of your bossiness or, I would say, over- over-friendliness. Take five emails you spent some time crafting. Put them into AI and ask AI, "How warm am I? How competent am I? How could I have done better?" We can use AI as a charisma coach, and it is incredibly helpful to see, are you leaking, are you showing cues of warmth and competence just verbally? Like, forget in person. Like, forget the nonverbal. We have to start with email first. That will be a im- really important test right off the bat. See what it says, and it will tell you, oh, you're leaning far warm. So for example, in our, in our research, uh, we have students who are off the charts in warmth. They love emojis.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay. My highly warm folks, oh my goodness, they love, um, emojis and exclamation points.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And they love words like yay, fab, whoop, and wow.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Okay. These are my... I know I... When I- I can read emails from a, a person and be like, this person's highly warm and they're interrupted in meetings.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
This person is highly warm and they're not taken seriously.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
This person is highly warm and they're getting pushback on their salary range.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
This person is highly warm and they are not being seen as credible in their interviews. I can look at your emails and I can tell you what professional challenges you're facing and so can you. Highly competent folks, on the other hand, they under exclaim, they don't use a lot of emojis, and they love data, percents, numbers, and figures. They love those. In fact, for a highly competent person, it's physically painful to use an exclamation point.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs] It's like, "Ooh, but it's not credible."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
But you know what? That means you're under-signaling warmth. It means if you are, if you are too formal, too sterile in your communications, that could be the reason that people are like, "Ugh, I don't... Like, she doesn't give me a good feeling. I can't connect to her. She's too dominant." And this comes directly from the research, and this is a quote. I, I remember this. I don't remember quotes often, but this quote struck me so deeply. "Competence without warmth leaves us feeling suspicious."
- 1:33:09 – 1:34:34
Before You Make That Connection, Ask Yourself This
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
how to show it.
- JSJay Shetty
I want to remind people, I think this stuff can be used disingenuously.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Oh, yes.
- JSJay Shetty
And it's only disingenuous if it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, where it shifts into manipulation, it shifts to, like, trying to get something out of something and extraction and lying and, you know-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
This is my greatest fear, by the way.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, before I came out with Cues especially, I had, like, a m- like, a life crisis because I started writing the book and I was like, "Oh, no, like, this could be used for evil." Mm. And, like, I had a whole thing with my publisher where I was like, "I don't know if I should publish this."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, I don't... These are tools that people could use for bad. And I... And she was like, "Yeah, but they could also be used for good."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And so I sat with my team and I talked to them about it, and we decided to, to move forward with it, [laughs] obviously. Um, and it, you know, it's changed so many people. But that is my biggest fear, is that people will use this for bad, not good. And so it's really important, I think, for everyone listening that if you have the intention to build friendships and to find your people and to be warm, that's why we started off with that word. Whatever word it is, great. Like, that is your intention, and that is only searching for good, and that should always be our intention.
- JSJay Shetty
I love that. Vanessa, you are incredible.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs] Oh, thanks.
- JSJay Shetty
Uh, I think you masterfully go between-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No compliments, Jay [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
... warmth and competence.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs] Yeah, okay.
- JSJay Shetty
I can now. We've spent two hours together.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
No, I mean it. It's... I,
- 1:34:34 – 1:36:29
Life’s Too Short for Shallow Connections, Find Your People
- JSJay Shetty
I think the work you're doing is amazing. And, and I think it's so needed in a time when a lot of us are dealing with low self-esteem, low confidence. We think everyone else is impressive and we're not.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
And-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And we're lonely
- JSJay Shetty
... and we're lonely.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And we're underestimated. Yes. Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
And we look around and we think we're the only one struggling-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... when the reality is someone just had the chance to develop a few of these skills, maybe in a workplace, maybe in college, maybe their parents had some of these naturally. And you don't have to feel that what you have now is all you have.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's it. And, um, not everyone is gonna be your flavor.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
You don't have to let everyone like you. In fact, that doesn't... It is impossible. So I would rather you go into conversation finding your people, the people who like your weirdness, the people who like your awkwardness, the people who truly value what you value, and everyone else, wish them well.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
But, like, life is too short to spend time with people that we're ambivalent about. Life is too short to not say, "Hey."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Like, it's too short. [laughs]
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, absolutely. And, and it's... There's this old meme that I love that people post, and it says, "Confidence isn't everyone will like me. Confidence is I'll be okay if everyone doesn't."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
That's it.
- JSJay Shetty
And that, I've always loved that because I think we think confidence means, "Oh, everyone likes them." And A, that's not true for anyone at all, and B, it's, "No, I'll be okay if they don't because I know why I did that. I know why I showed up that way. I know why I said hey-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm
- JSJay Shetty
... because life's too short."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
"I know why I, uh, made eye contact, because I wanted to form a real connection. I know why we went on a road trip, because I wanted to make sure that someone was not just being a script and-"
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And congruent with me.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
It's like I did all of that and I know why I did it, even if it didn't go the way I wanted it to go.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Vanessa, thank you so much for showing up in your full self.
- 1:36:29 – 1:42:53
Vanessa on Final Five
- JSJay Shetty
We end every episode of On Purpose with the Final Five. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
[laughs] I'm not gonna overthink this. Okay.
- JSJay Shetty
So, uh, Vanessa, your first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Don't say yes to everything.
- JSJay Shetty
Good advice. Uh, question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Just be yourself.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Doesn't help me.
- JSJay Shetty
It doesn't help, yeah.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
No.
- JSJay Shetty
Because-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Especially-
- JSJay Shetty
... you do- you don't even know what you're capable of
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
... when people would say that to me, what if you don't like yourself?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
I had a long time where I didn't like myself. So when someone said, "Be yourself," that was, like, the worst way to be, and so I had to figure out something else. And so I think that that was a hard... That was the worst advice because it actually didn't help me.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I love the answer. Question number three, and you can expand on this a bit because I think it's really important. I feel like right now we're losing a lot of these cues because most of us are on a dating app and we're messaging. So you don't even get to see what someone's looking at. You don't get the-
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Smell
- JSJay Shetty
... "Hey, hey."
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
You don't get that.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
You don't get the smell.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Yes.
- JSJay Shetty
You don't get the ability to give 29 signals.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
You don't get it. And so what are we losing, and how do we navigate it?
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
What we're losing is freedom because they're so narrow, those apps. It's like, how do you look? Okay. Now, what are these five questions that are on your profile? How did you answer them? Oh, now we're gonna text in this very weird, limited way back and forth. And so we lack the freedom to be like, "So, like, what brings you here to this gym? Oh, you come here a lot. Oh, I saw you with your friend." Like, we need more freedom to find our people. I don't dislike dating apps because I think they've created a number of beautiful friendships and... but what I think that is really important is you don't use them as your only vehicle for dating. Make them be one vehicle. But then if you're dating and you're really serious about finding your person, make it your part-time job.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- VEVanessa Van Edwards
And go to the places where your person would be. So my [laughs] one of my friends is also dating and, um, she has a dog, and I was likeSure. Do the apps one, you know, 30 minutes a day at the most. Otherwise, I want you to go to every dog park within a mile of you every day after work. And just look around, talk to everyone, talk to men, talk to women, and just start talking to the people at those dog parks. You know why? They live within a mile of you. They are dog owners.
Episode duration: 1:42:54
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