#1 Divorce Lawyer: After 1000 Cases, Here’s the REAL Reason Marriages Fail (It’s NOT What You Think)

Jay Shetty 0:00 [instrumental music] Is it true that 50%

Jay Shetty 0:29 of marriages end in divorce?

James Sexton 0:30 It's actually a little over 50%. Yeah, it is, um, it's a frightening statistic when you hear it because I, I've often said it, it, it actually creates the legal supposition that marriage is a negligent activity. You know, the, in, in the law we have this idea of negligence and recklessness. So negligence is a failure to perceive a substantial, uh, but, but high re- uh, likelihood, uh, of harm, and recklessness is a conscious disregard for a substantial and unjustifiable risk of harm. And you could make the argument that if something 50% or more of the time ends in pain and heartbreak, that it's actually reckless to do it. And, you know, I, I'm always vexed by the thought that how do we gauge the success of something? And so divorce is clearly a failure of marriage to sustain. But then you have to think, if over 50% of marriages end in divorce, how many people are unhappy with the decision they made to marry-

Jay Shetty 1:39 Mm

James Sexton 1:39 ... but stay together-

Jay Shetty 1:40 Yeah

James Sexton 1:40 ... for the children or because they don't want to give away half their belongings? If you're conservative and say it's another 10%, maybe 20%, now we're talking about something that has a fail rate of 70% or so. That, to me, is just shocking.

Jay Shetty 1:57 Mm.

James Sexton 1:57 It's, it's stunning. But the statistic that people don't talk about is that 86% of people who divorce are remarried within five years of their divorce, which to me actually speaks to the importance of marriage. That, that someone who's gone through this process, it's ended in a manner different than what they had hoped for, right? And they still-

Jay Shetty 2:23 Mm

James Sexton 2:23 ... okay, let's try it again, you know? And what does that say about our need for that connection, how important it is to us as humans? So yeah, but, but un- the unfortunate news is that that is a very high fail rate by

James Sexton 2:39 any regard.

Jay Shetty 2:40 Yeah. And I think most things, if you heard something had that fail rate, you'd probably not even try. So if some-

James Sexton 2:46 Even remotely

Jay Shetty 2:47 ... even, even with anything, right? So if someone said, "Hey, this investment has a, you know, 50% chance of failing or going wrong," you'd probably not consider it.

James Sexton 2:56 Of course.

Jay Shetty 2:56 Why do people still get married?

James Sexton 2:58 I think probably for a number of reasons. I mean, one is it, it's assumed for many years that it's the right thing to do.

Jay Shetty 3:07 Yeah.

James Sexton 3:07 Which is in and of itself strange because the, the supposition that one should marry in the face of those statistics is shocking, and even the fact that it's considered indelicate. Like if someone said to me, "Oh, Jim, I'm getting married," the proper response is, "Oh, congratulations. That's wonderful." But it would be perfectly reasonable to say, "Really? Why?"

Jay Shetty 3:33 Mm.

James Sexton 3:34 "Why? Like, why, why are you doing that? Like, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution? What, what is the reason that this particular permutation of a personal, religious, and/or legal relationship-

Jay Shetty 3:50 Mm

James Sexton 3:50 ... is important to you-

Jay Shetty 3:52 Yeah

James Sexton 3:52 ... or to your soon-to-be spouse?" But it's con- it would be considered terribly rude. I would never in, in polite society say to someone, "Why are you getting married?" Because-

Jay Shetty 4:01 [laughs]

James Sexton 4:01 ... it, it just feels like such a pessimistic view of things.

Jay Shetty 4:04 Yeah.

James Sexton 4:05 But, but it isn't pessimistic if you look at the numbers.

Jay Shetty 4:08 Mm.

James Sexton 4:09 And I actually think it's an interesting thought exercise for people to have. You know, why am I getting married? What is the problem to which marriage is a solution? We look at any other technology in our life, you know, this mic stand, you know, the glass of water, and I can say, "Okay, the problem to which this is a solution is it would be awkward for me to hold a microphone in my hand, and, and we need to amplify our voices in some fashion." So you can answer the question pretty easily, but marriage, e- even asking the question's considered rude.

Jay Shetty 4:39 Yeah. It's,

Jay Shetty 4:40 that's, I've never thought about it like that, and I'm actually thinking about, as you're saying, it's fascinating that we've confused the emphasis on a wedding versus a marriage, too.

James Sexton 4:51 Right. Right.

Jay Shetty 4:51 So you spend more time planning your wedding-

James Sexton 4:54 So much

Jay Shetty 4:54 ... than you do preparing for a marriage.

James Sexton 4:56 Well, I, I jokingly talk about the wedding industrial complex, you know? That it's, it's a, you know, billions of dollars business, and of course, like, what about it wouldn't be appealing? I mean, weddings are, I love them.

Jay Shetty 5:09 They're beautiful. I do too.

James Sexton 5:10 They're, they're, I get-

Jay Shetty 5:10 I love them too

James Sexton 5:11 ... I get misty-eyed at weddings.

Jay Shetty 5:12 So do I. [laughs]

James Sexton 5:13 Nothing about my job has made me the slightest bit less excited about a wedding. The idea of two people coming together and standing before family and friends and saying, "I found my person."

Jay Shetty 5:28 Yeah.

James Sexton 5:28 "Out of eight billion, I found my person."

Jay Shetty 5:31 Yeah.

James Sexton 5:31 You know? It, how could you not get sentimental about that?

Jay Shetty 5:35 Yeah.

James Sexton 5:35 It's, it's such a beautiful thing and ... But, you know, saying I do isn't saying I can. Like at best, it's saying I'll try.

Jay Shetty 5:46 Oof.

James Sexton 5:46 And, and we just don't, we don't say that out loud, and I think we might be poorer for it. I think it would be better if we had a more honest and realistic view of marriage because there's nothing more fun than getting married.But being married-

Jay Shetty 6:04 Mm

James Sexton 6:05 ... is much more challenging.

Jay Shetty 6:06 Mm.

James Sexton 6:06 And we spend so much time in the excitement and the sort of pheromones of, you know, we're gonna have this cake, and we're gonna have this. Which by the way, of course, it's so much fun. Like any, any event with cake I'll go to.

Jay Shetty 6:18 [laughs]

James Sexton 6:18 But it, it, it really is something that we would do well to take the being married part-

Jay Shetty 6:24 Mm

James Sexton 6:25 ... from the beginning more seriously.

Jay Shetty 6:27 Yeah. I've, I've officiated a few weddings, and, uh, there's never been a time when I haven't not wanted to cry.

James Sexton 6:35 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:35 Like, I'm trying to hold it together, and the only thing in my head is, "Don't cry. Don't cry."

James Sexton 6:38 God bless that you can do it.

Jay Shetty 6:39 Hold it together. It's so hard because-

James Sexton 6:40 My-

Jay Shetty 6:40 ... I'm the same. I love love. I'm fully present. It's something that gets me right in my soul.

James Sexton 6:46 Well, and you're cheering for them.

Jay Shetty 6:47 Yeah.

James Sexton 6:47 You're just cheering for them.

Jay Shetty 6:47 And I love hearing the speeches and the vows and-

James Sexton 6:50 Oh, but you know what?

Jay Shetty 6:51 ... stuff written. [laughs]

James Sexton 6:51 I'll share a personal experience. My, my, uh, oldest son, uh, Noah, got married a couple of weeks ago.

Jay Shetty 6:57 Oh, wow. Congratulations.

James Sexton 6:58 And, uh, wonderful.

Jay Shetty 6:59 Why? [laughs]

James Sexton 6:59 What a... Yeah, why? Exactly why. Uh, he has good health insurance, and she wa-

Jay Shetty 7:03 [laughs]

James Sexton 7:04 No, they, they have a lot of... They had good reasons. He, he's my son, so he's... And he's also a lawyer, so he's-

Jay Shetty 7:08 Yeah

James Sexton 7:08 ... he's thought it through. And she's a lawyer, so.

Jay Shetty 7:10 Yeah.

James Sexton 7:11 But I knew I would be very moved by it. I'm, I'm... I'll let you in on a secret that, that I'm, I'm very sensitive. You know? I, um, for someone who's been described as the sociopath you want on your side in the courtroom, I, I'm actually, I think my superpower is that I'm extremely sensitive, and I'm very prone to tears, and I'm very prone to usually tears over things that move me.

Jay Shetty 7:35 Mm.

James Sexton 7:36 And my son and his now wife, I have to get used to saying that 'cause it's girlfriend for a long time, then it was fiancée, and now it's wife. They wrote their own vows.

Jay Shetty 7:46 Mm.

James Sexton 7:47 And I fully expected that I would get teary-eyed during the ceremony, but when she was reading her vows to him, to hear someone talking about this little boy that I helped raise to a man a- and saying, you know, "You're the strongest man I know," like, "You make me feel so safe," like I, I could not... I have tears pouring down my face because it was just such... It felt like a finish line of sorts. It felt like, "Oh, okay," like that's the man. She sees that man. Like, I know I don't see my own kids clearly. Nobody does. We all think they're the most beautiful-

Jay Shetty 8:25 [laughs]

James Sexton 8:25 ... handsome, wonderful. But to have this really intelligent young woman, you know, looking at my son and saying like, "You're a hero to me," was one of the most powerful emotional moments in my life.

Jay Shetty 8:40 Mm.

James Sexton 8:41 And I, I found myself, as I do at every wedding, just, just cheering for them, just hoping they'll defy every statistic and every odd, and they'll, they'll keep the feeling they have at that moment.

Jay Shetty 8:54 Yeah. Yeah. And at the same time, it's, it's that paradox, isn't it? Because I think I got married nine years ago.

James Sexton 9:00 Mm.

Jay Shetty 9:00 And still with my wife, and we've been together for 12 years.

James Sexton 9:03 Lovely.

Jay Shetty 9:04 And now I look back, and I think to myself, "I didn't know."

James Sexton 9:08 No.

Jay Shetty 9:09 I didn't have a clue-

James Sexton 9:10 How could you?

Jay Shetty 9:11 ... what I was saying.

James Sexton 9:12 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 9:13 Like I said, I love my wife that day and that I-

James Sexton 9:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 9:16 ... believed that-

James Sexton 9:17 Yeah

Jay Shetty 9:18 ... you know, we were meant for each other and everything, and I had no clue.

James Sexton 9:22 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 9:22 Like the last nine years have been so much more illuminating about a commitment I made.

James Sexton 9:27 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 9:27 And it's almost like I made a commitment with far less information-

James Sexton 9:31 Yeah

Jay Shetty 9:31 ... far less insight-

James Sexton 9:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 9:32 ... far less growth.

James Sexton 9:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 9:34 And so what I wanted to dive into with you, and there's so many things I wanna unpack from everything you've just said, but I wanna help our audience understand from your perspective and from your insight and from your experience, like we've just talked about the most beautiful moment, and you, hearing you describe your son's vows and that moment, it's... I, there can't be anyone who's listening right now who isn't just thinking, "Oh my gosh, that's beautiful. I love that."

James Sexton 10:00 Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 10:01 And then you're someone who's seen countless couples-

James Sexton 10:05 Yeah

Jay Shetty 10:05 ... break apart.

James Sexton 10:06 Yeah, I mean, my-

Jay Shetty 10:06 Get divorced

James Sexton 10:07 ... my day job is facilitating the demise of unhappy marriages.

Jay Shetty 10:11 Yeah.

James Sexton 10:11 And, and I've done it for 25 years at the highest level, and, and, um, you know, I'm, I'm very glad it has not taken out of me my appreciation for love and my appreciation for how important romantic love is and how beautiful of a connection two people can have. But yeah, I've, I have seen good people at their absolute worst.

Jay Shetty 10:34 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 10:34 And I have seen intimacy weaponized in the most brutal ways.

Jay Shetty 10:39 Mm.

James Sexton 10:40 And so I see the risk that, that we take. But what, what it causes me to be very mindful of is how brave it is to love.

Jay Shetty 10:54 Mm.

James Sexton 10:55 Because you should be scared to get married. You should be scared to love anything. Like to love anything is sort of insane because every marriage ends. It ends in death or divorce, but it ends. And to love anything is to open yourself up to the inevitability of losing it. And so there's a good argument to be made that you just should never open yourself up that way because the pain-

Jay Shetty 11:22 Mm

James Sexton 11:22 ... that, that will come is so great. And yet we love.

Jay Shetty 11:29 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 11:29 We love constantly.

Jay Shetty 11:31 Yeah.

James Sexton 11:31 You know? Because the reward of it is so amazing and so beautiful. And, and that's why, you know, if you're not scared, it's not brave. It's only brave if you're scared and you do it anyway.

Jay Shetty 11:43 Mm.

James Sexton 11:43 And so a wedding to me feels brave. Like the, the marriage you just described, you know, you and your wife are nine years in, so you're not newlyweds anymore. The honeymoon's passed. You know, especially if you have children. When you have children, that, it's really-

Jay Shetty 11:56 Yeah, we haven't yet.

James Sexton 11:57 Okay. So that, that's, that's another chapter.

Jay Shetty 12:00 Yeah.

James Sexton 12:00 So what you'll, what you'll see though is even what you're saying now that, "Oh, these nine years were something different of a journey than I anticipated."And I promise that the next nine and the next nine and the next nine, you have no idea. You have no- none of us do. You know, my, my grandmother used to say, "If you wanna make God laugh, tell him your plans."

Jay Shetty 12:19 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 12:20 And so I-- but the idea too, again, of having a partner in that, of someone who like, "I'll hold your hand, you'll hold mine, and let's, let's do this together," 'cause it's so much better, you know? And, and I, I don't think I can learn everything I need to know about myself from myself. Like, I need help. I need people who see my blind spots and love me and are cheering for the good in me, you know, and forgiving the weakness in me. So there's something to me about, again, even, even in facilitating the demise of unhappy marriages and seeing how wrong this can go, it's like, you know, in the presence of death, we're most aware of the beauty of our life and, and in the presence of illness, we're so aware of our good health. I think doing what I do has made me appreciate love in a very deep way.

Jay Shetty 13:15 There's such

Jay Shetty 13:16 a truth in, in what I'm hearing from you and even, even sensing and feeling from the way you're sharing what you're sharing, and it's, it's so interesting because if someone's scared before they get married or before they fall in love, we usually tell them that's a bad thing.

James Sexton 13:32 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 13:32 We usually be like, "Oh, no, no, you should be sure. You should know," right? Like, [laughs] "If you don't know..." And it's almost like, well, no, how, how could you? Like it's-

James Sexton 13:39 Possibly

Jay Shetty 13:40 ... it's, it's putting yourself, you know, it's-

James Sexton 13:42 Yeah

Jay Shetty 13:42 ... trying to get someone to hold your heart and-

James Sexton 13:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 13:46 ... hold this fragile, vulnerable, deepest part of yourself-

James Sexton 13:50 Yeah

Jay Shetty 13:51 ... and not knowing if they'll be able to hold it properly for-

James Sexton 13:54 Yeah. Yeah, and to, and to-

Jay Shetty 13:55 ... decades and decades and decades.

James Sexton 13:56 You know, I'm 52 years into my journey of being a human being, and I'm, I'd like to think I'm starting to become myself.

Jay Shetty 14:05 Mm. Yeah, I can get that.

James Sexton 14:06 And starting to understand myself much better.

Jay Shetty 14:09 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 14:09 And that's after, you know, a long time of reflection and therapy and all those things. So it's so hard to know yourself-

Jay Shetty 14:16 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 14:16 ... to then know another person, you know? And then to, to be in such an intimate tie with this person and, and again, in a way that requires a tremendous amount, if you're gonna do it right, of vulnerability, candor, bravery. Just the ability to, to, to say, you know... I mean, it really is almost discipline, like the trading what you want now for what you want most.

Jay Shetty 14:40 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 14:41 You know? And what you want most is deep, long-term connection with this other person. But sometimes what you want now is just like, "Let's get through the day."

Jay Shetty 14:48 Yeah.

James Sexton 14:48 "Let's not have an argument or a, a difficult conversation." But sometimes, you know, just like we have to go to the gym, just like we, y- you have to lean in to these uncomfortable things.

Jay Shetty 15:01 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 15:01 And that's a lot of what my writing is about, is about the idea of leaning into moderately uncomfortable conversations for the good of the long-term relationship because, you know, it's, it's so easy to want to have your day-to-day go smooth in your relationship that you start telling each other what the other person wants to hear and not, you know, sharing what's really going on in your head and in your heart. But I think what, if what we really want is long-term, deep connection with another person, w- we can't do that.

Jay Shetty 15:38 Yeah.

James Sexton 15:38 We have to be disciplined. We have to say, "Okay, I'm, I'm going to be radically candid with this person

James Sexton 15:44 about what's going on."

Jay Shetty 15:45 I think a lot of what we've touched on so far is this really root emotion-

James Sexton 15:48 Mm

Jay Shetty 15:48 ... of like what's really happening-

James Sexton 15:50 Yeah

Jay Shetty 15:50 ... beneath the surface.

James Sexton 15:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 15:51 And I wonder not what are the top three reasons people get divorced that they say in the courtroom-

James Sexton 15:57 Yeah

Jay Shetty 15:57 ... or that they may say the first time they meet you or to their therapist.

James Sexton 16:00 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 16:01 What are the three root, top three root reasons-

James Sexton 16:04 Yeah

Jay Shetty 16:04 ... that you have discovered that-

James Sexton 16:06 Yeah

Jay Shetty 16:06 ... lead to someone getting divorced?

James Sexton 16:08 Yeah, the most common question anyone who finds out what I do for a living ask me other than, "Oh my God, you must have some great stories."

Jay Shetty 16:16 [laughs]

James Sexton 16:17 And, and usually they're very pleased because I'll tell them one of the more outrageous ones like, "Oh, and then he cut the car in half with a chainsaw and said, 'Okay, you pick which half you want.'" You know, things that... True story.

Jay Shetty 16:25 And that, oh, that's crazy.

James Sexton 16:26 That's a true story. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 16:27 Okay, you'll have to tell-

James Sexton 16:28 Oh, yeah, I have some, I have some real bangers.

Jay Shetty 16:30 Yay. You have to tell us some new ones later.

James Sexton 16:31 Um, yeah, you know, I have a lot of fun at a cocktail party [laughs] 'cause I have a lot of those. But really what, what people are, you know, asking, I think they want me to say, "Oh, uh, cheating."

Jay Shetty 16:44 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 16:45 Or, "Financial impropriety," because that gives us a sense of control.

Jay Shetty 16:51 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 16:51 "Okay, I can monitor my client," uh, my, my, uh, see, client comes out of me. "But I can monitor my spouse or partner's whereabouts using my phone, and I can, uh, you know, be vigilant about, you know, like keeping an eye on what's going on with them and other people." And it gives us a sense of control, right?

Jay Shetty 17:08 Yeah.

James Sexton 17:09 "Okay, I'm worried," you know, financial impropriety is a huge piece of a lot of divorces, but, you know, "Okay, I can try to monitor finances and stay actively involved in it so we never have that happen." But really underneath those things is what, you know, those are the symptoms-

Jay Shetty 17:25 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 17:25 ... not the underlying illness. And I think the underlying illness, it's, it's maddening for people to hear, but I think it's disconnection.

Jay Shetty 17:33 Mm.

James Sexton 17:34 I think the number one marriage killer is disconnection. I think we fall in love incredibly fast, and we fall out of love, and we fall into those big marriage killers much more slowly. Or, or really kind of the way that people go bankrupt, very slowly and then all at once.

Jay Shetty 17:56 Mm.

James Sexton 17:56 You know? And, and by the time you've gone over that cliff, I actually think it, it may be too late to do something about it, which is why I'm very big on the idea of like preventative maintenance and not-

Jay Shetty 18:09 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 18:09 ... getting to that place. But I think disconnectionFrom your partner, from yourself, from your true self. You know, I think I've been representing people in court for 25 years in divorces, and I think the most dangerous lies we tell are the ones we tell ourself about what's making us happy, what's not, what's important to us and what isn't, how we've changed-

Jay Shetty 18:34 Mm

James Sexton 18:35 ... and how we've stayed the same, how our partner has changed, and how we feel about it. We lie to ourselves about those things so that we can sort of navigate a comfortable day-to-day reality. But long term, I think that is a very, very dangerous thing. So I would say disconnection from yourself and from your partner. I would also say that the biggest marriage killer is, is we stop seeing our partner, and we stop making them feel seen because I think we become blind to the things we see most often. You know, whoever discovered water wasn't a fish. You know? Like, I have a couch that I've had for, I think, probably 20 years. I couldn't tell you what color it is [laughs] because I sit on it every day at some point, but I've just become blind to it because it's just there. It's the couch. It's always there, you know? If I got a new one, then I would probably be very mindful of it, but I think it's the same thing. In a long-term relationship, there's a temptation to say, "Oh, I, I found it. I found this person. We did the thing. We're wearing the rings. We connected to each other. We're good. Like, I don't have to worry about that anymore. I can worry about all the thousand other natural shocks the flesh is heir to," you know? And in fact, like, this, this thing, this connection is so important that... You know, when you, when you think about when you're dating someone, you feel interested and you feel interesting.

Jay Shetty 20:03 Mm.

James Sexton 20:04 And those are both equally intoxicating.

Jay Shetty 20:06 Yeah. [laughs]

James Sexton 20:06 You know? Like, it's, it's lovely to sort of dive into someone. Like, this is our first conversation. It's exciting for us. Like-

Jay Shetty 20:13 Yeah

James Sexton 20:13 ... we're kind of a mystery to each other, and-

Jay Shetty 20:15 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 20:15 ... you know, we know a little about each other, enough that we're interested, but we wanna know more.

Jay Shetty 20:21 Yeah.

James Sexton 20:21 You know? And when you feel interesting, like, it's lovely. It's lovely to have someone say like, "Oh, and then what did you do?"

Jay Shetty 20:30 [laughs]

James Sexton 20:30 "And where did you grow up?" And-

Jay Shetty 20:31 Yeah

James Sexton 20:31 ... you know, like, it, it makes you feel sort of, "Oh, yeah, I guess I..." I joke because every summer we have law student interns who come to the firm for a couple months and share their talents with us, and it-- I always, I always feel so proud to be a lawyer when they're around because it's something they aspire to so much. And, you know, it's been my day job for so long that I sometimes forget like, "Oh, oh yeah," like there was a time where the only thing in the world I wanted was, like, everything I did was I wanna be able to someday walk into a courtroom and say, "James J. Sexton for the plaintiff," you know? And, and then I do it. I've done it so many thousands of times that it's really easy to forget that what a privilege that is, what a goal it was, and I, I achieved it. And when you're around people that are chasing that same dream, you say, "Oh, yeah, like I forgot."

Jay Shetty 21:25 Yeah.

James Sexton 21:25 And I think it's the same phenomenon in marriage. Like, there was a time where all of us went, "I just, I just wanna find someone."

Jay Shetty 21:32 Mm.

James Sexton 21:32 Like, "I wanna find my someone. I wanna find someone who loves me and sees me, and I'll love them and, and they'll receive my love." And then you have it, and you just kinda, "Okay, I got that now, and I'll move on to other things." And so I think when, when you feel... You know, there's, I always say about New York City that there's a kind of loneliness in New York City that I, I don't see in a lot of other cities because you're so surrounded by people, and yet you feel very alone sometimes.

Jay Shetty 22:03 Mm.

James Sexton 22:03 Because everyone's sort of, you know, in their lane, and, you know, you... It's a city where, you know, someone can just fall down in front of you, and people just keep moving.

Jay Shetty 22:11 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 22:11 You know? And it's so odd to be surroun- like when you're home by yourself, if you feel lonely, it, it seems situationally appropriate.

Jay Shetty 22:21 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 22:22 But if you're sitting in a room with hundreds of people and feel incredibly lonely, that's a very different kind of loneliness. I think when you are with the person who's supposed to be your deepest connection and you feel lonely-

Jay Shetty 22:34 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 22:34 ... and alone, that's a very unique brand of misery. So I think a lot of that comes from not feeling seen anymore, and I, I think that's something that kills marriages in a real way.

Jay Shetty 22:47 Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 22:48 I, I, I like those two, and I, and I appreciate those answers so much more than the surface answers of-

James Sexton 22:53 Yeah

Jay Shetty 22:53 ... and we will talk about cheating, and we will talk about-

James Sexton 22:56 Sure

Jay Shetty 22:56 ... money at some point. But I much prefer the disconnection and the lack of being seen as points of contention because I think you're spot on because when you didn't wash the dishes, someone felt like you didn't see them.

James Sexton 23:11 Right.

Jay Shetty 23:11 When you forgot to pick up something on the way back from home-

James Sexton 23:15 Right

Jay Shetty 23:15 ... they felt you were disconnected.

James Sexton 23:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 23:17 When you sat on the couch both watching the same show but never looking at each other-

James Sexton 23:22 Yeah

Jay Shetty 23:22 ... you felt unseen. Like that-

James Sexton 23:25 Right

Jay Shetty 23:25 ... that's what you felt. That's-

James Sexton 23:26 But see-

Jay Shetty 23:26 That's what was going on

James Sexton 23:27 ... and that phenomenon, that reality, I think actually can be flipped in the other direction to our benefit.

Jay Shetty 23:35 Yeah.

James Sexton 23:35 Because, you know, you've been married n- I don't wanna put you on the spot, but you've been-

Jay Shetty 23:38 No, go for it

James Sexton 23:38 ... married nine years. I'm willing to bet that if your wife was here and I said to her, "When do you feel most loved by Jay? Like, tell me some moments. Tell me some things he does that makes you feel loved."

Jay Shetty 23:53 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 23:54 I bet there's some answers you would know, like, "He listens to me when he cares for our family member," whatever.

Jay Shetty 24:00 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 24:01 But I bet there'd be some that you'd go, "Really? That?"

Jay Shetty 24:04 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 24:04 Like-

Jay Shetty 24:05 Yeah

James Sexton 24:05 ... "That?"

Jay Shetty 24:05 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 24:06 "That little thing?" Like that, that to me is such a, um, a beautiful expression ofLike h- what a mystery it is, you know? But, but there is something about these little gestures. Like you gave the example of like the dishes in the sink, and, and it is. That's like a death by a thousand paper cuts.

Jay Shetty 24:23 Yeah.

James Sexton 24:23 It's this little thing that's like, "Yeah, I don't, I don't care enough about you to do this, and I don't value your time enough." Like, it can feel that way. But also the act of like doing the dishes without being asked to do that is such a s- the opposite.

Jay Shetty 24:39 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 24:39 It's such a sense of like, "Oh, no, I did this 'cause I love you."

Jay Shetty 24:42 Yeah.

James Sexton 24:42 Like, "I did this 'cause I don't want you to have to do it."

Jay Shetty 24:44 Yeah.

James Sexton 24:44 Like, and there are so many little things when you're in love and, and when you feel loved that I, I bet your spouse, like they're silly little things.

Jay Shetty 24:55 Oh, I could think of one right now.

James Sexton 24:56 So, yeah. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:56 I could think of one right now my wife told me before, so, you know, and I'm pretty sure everyone goes through this. So my wife gets into bed before me maybe, uh, by a couple of minutes. She's brushed her teeth. She's done everything. She's going to bed. I'm, I'm getting... I'm just about to get in bed, and she's like, "Can you get me some water?" And it's like that.

James Sexton 25:11 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 25:11 So if I s- if I snap and I go, "No, get it yourself," like-

James Sexton 25:15 Right

Jay Shetty 25:15 ... I'm getting into bed, too.

James Sexton 25:16 Right. Right. Or-

Jay Shetty 25:17 Or

James Sexton 25:18 ... or if you get the water-

Jay Shetty 25:20 Yeah

James Sexton 25:20 ... before she even asks-

Jay Shetty 25:22 Yes. Yeah, yeah

James Sexton 25:22 ... and you say-

Jay Shetty 25:23 Yeah

James Sexton 25:23 ... "Before you ask, I knew you'd want a little," like-

Jay Shetty 25:26 Yeah

James Sexton 25:26 ... that's such a feeling of-

Jay Shetty 25:28 That... Yeah, yeah

James Sexton 25:28 ... awe.

Jay Shetty 25:28 Yeah.

James Sexton 25:29 Like, you didn't, you know-

Jay Shetty 25:31 Or even-

James Sexton 25:31 Or even if you just get the water and put it on the nightstand and don't look for credit.

Jay Shetty 25:35 Yeah. Yeah.

James Sexton 25:36 And you just do it. And you know, I had a client, I talk about it in the book, who I was talking to her after we'd been many miles together. It was a very ugly divorce. And we were sitting outside of the, the courtroom, and I said to her, because w- we'd been some miles, so you start having more casual conversations. And I said, "You know, was there a moment that you knew the marriage was over?" And she said, "Yeah, I remember it." And I said, "What was it?" And she said, "There was this granola that I really like, and I used to have it for breakfast. I'd put it on my yogurt, and I would have that every day. And they only sold it at this one store. And my husband used to always get it for me. And whenever, like, the bag was running out, magically, like, a new bag would be there." She's like, "And it always made me feel loved. It always made me feel like, oh, like, look, like he... And he wouldn't even say like, 'Oh, I got you your granola.'" Like we're prone to do as men, you know? We're like, "I opened that jar." We love that. But he didn't even look for credit. He just would do it, and it was... And she said like, "It just always made me feel so, like, he sees me. He knows what I need. He tries to get ahead of it." She said, "And one day, the granola ran out, and I thought, 'Oh, that's strange.'" And she's like, "I, I didn't get my own 'cause I thought, oh, no, maybe he's just didn't notice, you know? And a couple more days went by, and the granola never got replaced." And she said, "And I thought, 'Oh, okay, this is over.' Like, it's starting to move in the wrong direction." And I just remember thinking like, what a, what a powerful-

Jay Shetty 27:15 Mm

James Sexton 27:15 ... moment. But what a very relatable one, you know? The funny PS to that story is I said to her, "Was there anything like that, that you did for him?"

Jay Shetty 27:30 Yeah.

James Sexton 27:31 And sh- without hesitation she said, "Yeah, blowjobs." And I spit out my coffee.

Jay Shetty 27:36 [laughs]

James Sexton 27:36 Like I, I literally spit coffee across the-

Jay Shetty 27:39 Yeah

James Sexton 27:39 ... the court- courthouse hallway.

Jay Shetty 27:42 [laughs]

James Sexton 27:42 And I-

Jay Shetty 27:43 Yeah

James Sexton 27:43 ... I said, uh, uh, "Really?" She said, "Yeah." She said, "You know, when we were, like, dating and first married, like, it was just something I did a lot. Like it was, you know, it didn't take terribly long, and it always put him in a great mood for the day. And you know, he would, like, text me later and be like, 'Oh my God, this morning was so fun.'" And she goes, "And then for some reason, like, you know, once the kids came and stuff,"

Jay Shetty 28:03 [laughs]

James Sexton 28:03 "We didn't have as much time alone together." And she said, "I didn't really have much occasion. And so I would say like, 'Oh, well, we'll wait till tonight, and then we can both, you know, we'll have sex, and we'll both enjoy it.'" She's like, "But now I think about it, and I think like, oh yeah, like that was probably, like, the equivalent of granola."

Jay Shetty 28:17 [laughs]

James Sexton 28:17 Now, I'm not saying these are the same. I, I, I think they're quite different. But, but whatever it is-

Jay Shetty 28:24 Yeah

James Sexton 28:24 ... like whatever that little thing is, not that that's little, but whatever it is that, that your partner does for you, whatever kindness they show you, selfless kindness that they show you, whatever gesture of warmth and, and love and, and prioritizing your joy and pleasure, that, that's so important.

Jay Shetty 28:46 Mm.

James Sexton 28:46 And it's so easy to lose it.

Jay Shetty 28:48 Yeah.

James Sexton 28:48 It's so easy to just-

Jay Shetty 28:49 Yeah

James Sexton 28:49 ... not even know that you lost it.

Jay Shetty 28:52 Yeah. And, and I think it's so important that there's recognition, gratitude, and-

James Sexton 28:58 Yeah

Jay Shetty 28:58 ... reciprocity for it.

James Sexton 28:59 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 28:59 Because I think often when someone's doing something for a long time, it's like the couch.

James Sexton 29:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:05 You stop thanking them. You stop noticing it.

James Sexton 29:08 Ah.

Jay Shetty 29:08 You stop honoring it, and that, that part is equally as important because-

James Sexton 29:12 Yeah

Jay Shetty 29:12 ... that person at one point will feel underappreciated.

James Sexton 29:16 Yeah. And these are such-

Jay Shetty 29:17 You know? They're simple

James Sexton 29:18 ... these are such simple things.

Jay Shetty 29:19 Yeah.

James Sexton 29:20 Like, it's so easy.

Jay Shetty 29:21 But it is that. It is that.

James Sexton 29:23 It is so easy.

Jay Shetty 29:23 It's not the birthday or the wedding anniversary or the, uh-

James Sexton 29:25 No, it... And, and that's what we put so much on-

Jay Shetty 29:27 Yeah, yeah

James Sexton 29:28 ... is these giant gestures and... But the truth is, like if you texted your wife right now and just said, "I married the prettiest girl in the world."

Jay Shetty 29:35 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 29:36 Like who, what does that take? What does it take?

Jay Shetty 29:40 My wife would just send me a picture of her making a funny face.

James Sexton 29:42 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:43 [laughs]

James Sexton 29:43 Well, it, you got a good one.

Jay Shetty 29:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah. She would, yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 29:45 You know, like that's lovely. Like we... But, but I, I bet it wouldn't be something that's uncommon for you to say. I, I think if you-

Jay Shetty 29:51 Yeah, I say it all the time

James Sexton 29:52 ... yeah, I think that, that what does it cost?

Jay Shetty 29:55 Mm.

James Sexton 29:56 What does it cost to just take a moment and say, "You know, I'm so glad. I'm so glad I have you. I'm so glad you chose me." Like what does it take?

Jay Shetty 30:06 Yeah.

James Sexton 30:06 It's such a low percentage move. And if that's the secret, like if that's the thing that keeps that connection wired-

Jay Shetty 30:15 Mm

James Sexton 30:15 ... like-What if it's not these giant things? What if it's not we have to go on vacations at this routine, we have to have a date night and it has to be very formal? What if it's just these little gestures-

Jay Shetty 30:27 Yeah

James Sexton 30:28 ... that at the beginning of a relationship you feel them in your toes.

Jay Shetty 30:32 Yeah.

James Sexton 30:33 I mean, you know, you, you just, the feeling of intoxication-

Jay Shetty 30:37 Yeah

James Sexton 30:37 ... when someone sees you and admires you. Like, it's such a beautiful feeling. Why would you not just try to maintain that? And what do you have to lose? Like, if you, if you did that, the worst thing that could happen is they don't really notice.

Jay Shetty 30:53 Totally.

James Sexton 30:53 And, and, and that's okay. You're not much poorer for that.

Jay Shetty 30:57 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 30:57 You know, it's a low investment.

Jay Shetty 30:59 One thing I've been reflecting on lately is how even the smallest choices can create a big impact over time. Whether it's choosing to spend a quiet night in to recharge or making a decision that brings you closer to a long-term goal, those moments of intention really matter. And when it comes to the choices we make with our money, that same mindset applies. I've learned that saving for the things that truly matter, like your first home or a reliable car, starts with small, thoughtful decisions. That's why I appreciate what State Farm is doing with their personal price plan. It gives you the power to personalize your plan and create an affordable price that works for your life. You can bundle your home and auto insurance in a way that supports your journey and your goals. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can choose to bundle and save with the personal price plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. So

Jay Shetty 32:09 much of this is based on at least so much of what we grew up on. Like for me, for example, my mom, incredible woman, breadwinner of the family, cooked a fresh breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day, dropped us to school, helped us with our homework, everything. Everything that's good about me-

James Sexton 32:26 Yeah

Jay Shetty 32:26 ... is to do with my mom.

James Sexton 32:27 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:28 And but when your mom does it, you assume that's just what life is.

James Sexton 32:35 Sure.

Jay Shetty 32:36 And so when I married my wife, and my wife also loves cooking, and it's part of her love language, but to me, getting a hot meal was normality.

James Sexton 32:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:47 And so even though my wife showed it as a way of showing love because I had it from my mom as like a base level expectation-

James Sexton 32:54 Oh, you're the fish in the water

Jay Shetty 32:55 ... you just not no-

James Sexton 32:56 Just don't see it

Jay Shetty 32:56 ... yeah, you just don't see it.

James Sexton 32:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:57 And it took me a moment when I would actually watch my wife cook, and then not only did my appreciation for my wife change, my appreciation for my mother changed.

James Sexton 33:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 33:05 Realizing what it took-

James Sexton 33:07 Yeah

Jay Shetty 33:07 ... to do that for all those years. But it's almost like-

James Sexton 33:09 And what a gift that is

Jay Shetty 33:10 ... what a gift.

James Sexton 33:11 Like, what a gift that-

Jay Shetty 33:12 And you can dismiss that

James Sexton 33:13 ... loving your, loving your wife helped you love your mother in a different way.

Jay Shetty 33:17 Yeah.

James Sexton 33:17 Like, that, that's what I mean when I say, like, this transformative power of love is that, you know, I, I remember when my sons were first born, my admiration for my then wife was so, like, because she wasn't just this woman I had dated in college or this woman I had married. She was a, but you're like a mom.

Jay Shetty 33:37 Mm.

James Sexton 33:37 You know? Like, and you love this little organism the same amount that I do, and like... So you do, like, have so many occasions-

Jay Shetty 33:44 Yeah

James Sexton 33:44 ... to deepen your connection to this other person, which deepens your connection to, to these other people, you know, in your life. And but I, yeah, I think that, that we, we certainly... And you know, I, I have to say, when you were talking about, you know, growing up in a home where mom, you know, made these lovely meals, and then to be married to a woman who does the same, and so to you, this is sort of, you know, normal.

Jay Shetty 34:05 You can take it for granted.

James Sexton 34:07 Right. You can easily take it for granted. But it, that's also very often how people end up in very, um, negative relationships.

Jay Shetty 34:18 Mm.

James Sexton 34:18 So if you grew up in a home where your mother or your father or both had substance use disorder, you, you think, "Oh, this is how a man is. Men drink." You know? So you're much more prone to marrying someone who also has substance use disorder and looking at it and saying, "Oh, well, no, that's just what men do." I, I have-

Jay Shetty 34:38 Oh, wow, yeah

James Sexton 34:38 ... I have represented victims of domestic violence and intimate partner abuse for 25 years, and I've represented perpetrators of domestic violence. And I'm not excusing a- anyone's abuse of anyone else, but 99% of the time, in my experience, they grew up in a house where there was abuse. They grew up in a house where violence and intimate partner abuse was how you treat someone or how you're treated by someone. And they, they just don't see how toxic of an environment this is. So sometimes what you just described as a, a, a way to deepen connection and love to yourself, you know, to your partner, to, and to your, you know, your, your, your mom, it's also that same phenomenon, that same cognitive habit that can create in us, like, we may be repeating the patterns that we watched the people-

Jay Shetty 35:35 Yeah

James Sexton 35:35 ... around us, like mothers and fathers and grandparents, the way they communicated with their spouse.

Jay Shetty 35:40 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 35:41 We, there's no class in love. Like, there's no... You know, I, I can tell you with certainty, I've used algebra very few times in my life. You know? I, I have had almost no use for so much of, like, dividing fractions that was taught to me. But, but there was never a class-

Jay Shetty 36:00 Mm

James Sexton 36:01 ... about how to love, how to be loved, how to be in a deeply connected relationship with another human being. So you really just learn on the job.

Jay Shetty 36:10 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 36:10 You know? And you learn by watching the people around you. And if you have people around you that do it well, it's an incredible blessing. You know, this is a gift we can give to the world is to, to demonstrate how to love and be loved. Like, II often talk about, you know, in the sort of masculinity crisis that there's been a lot of discussion about how, you know, there are, there are not as many role models for men.

Jay Shetty 36:35 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 36:36 Young men who want to look at what, what should a strong, capable man look like? What does... You know, we talk a lot about toxic masculinity, but what does non-toxic masculinity look like? I'm interested in that. Like, what, what does it, what is the, the, the positive masculine? And I found myself thinking about most of my examples of it came from literature or film, you know, like characters who were strong, protective men, self-sacrificing, putting themselves, you know, below in terms of importance to people who they were there to protect or love. And so I, I think we have, we need each other so much as a, a-

Jay Shetty 37:19 Yeah

James Sexton 37:19 ... a, a core unit, a family, a society, and then just as a world. Like, we, we need to, to be able to look to examples of how to love and how to receive love.

Jay Shetty 37:31 Yeah.

James Sexton 37:31 And we, we don't... There, there is a, I think, a tremendous, um, absence, a drought of that.

Jay Shetty 37:38 Yeah.

James Sexton 37:38 You know? I, I know a lot of unhappily married people, and not just as a function of my professional life. I, I know-

Jay Shetty 37:46 Oh, me, me too

James Sexton 37:47 ... of my friends who are married, I can really only think of a handful who I look at them and go, "Oh, yeah, that's good."

Jay Shetty 37:56 Yeah.

James Sexton 37:56 "That's really good," and they're really glad they're in it. But man, when you're around it, like, it's, it's like the warmth of the sun.

Jay Shetty 38:05 Yeah.

James Sexton 38:05 Like, it's such a beautiful thing to see-

Jay Shetty 38:08 Yeah

James Sexton 38:08 ... that in practice. And we need to find ways, I think, for, for young people or even newly connected people, like people who are thinking about marriage, to be in the orbit of that.

Jay Shetty 38:22 Yeah. Yeah.

James Sexton 38:22 You know? And to learn from it.

Jay Shetty 38:24 Yeah.

James Sexton 38:24 Because we just can't, we don't teach it. We can't-

Jay Shetty 38:25 Yeah.

James Sexton 38:26 I don't know that we could necessarily teach it in a textbook. You know, you can read all the books you want about swimming, but you learn in a pool.

Jay Shetty 38:32 Yeah.

James Sexton 38:33 You know? And I, I think we're, you know, we, we break in relationship, and we heal in relationship.

Jay Shetty 38:38 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 38:38 I think it's the only way.

Jay Shetty 38:40 Yeah. I mean,

Jay Shetty 38:41 talking about the masculinity piece, I was reading that the two times men are most likely to cheat are when their partner's pregnant-

James Sexton 38:51 Mm

Jay Shetty 38:52 ... and when the first child is born or when a-

James Sexton 38:55 Mm

Jay Shetty 38:56 ... child is young.

James Sexton 38:56 Makes sense to me.

Jay Shetty 38:57 And-

James Sexton 38:57 That's consistent with my observation too.

Jay Shetty 39:00 Yeah.

James Sexton 39:00 I, I have something of a PhD in infidelity, having been a divorce lawyer so long, and I've seen it from both sides.

Jay Shetty 39:06 And I'd love to talk about why, but I think the f-

James Sexton 39:08 I have a theory

Jay Shetty 39:09 ... w- yeah, the fascinating part to me is that I spoke to a lot of men as well, friends who, who haven't cheated, but they talked about how when they had their first child, just how hard it was to be second priority-

James Sexton 39:23 Yeah

Jay Shetty 39:23 ... to their partner.

James Sexton 39:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 39:25 And when we talk about we can't teach a class, to me it sounds predictable and something you can prepare for-

James Sexton 39:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 39:32 ... because no wonder you're gonna be second priority-

James Sexton 39:35 Yeah. Yeah

Jay Shetty 39:35 ... because there's this helpless little baby-

James Sexton 39:37 Uh-huh

Jay Shetty 39:37 ... that demands attention and needs it.

James Sexton 39:38 And you actually want that baby-

Jay Shetty 39:40 You want to be first

James Sexton 39:40 ... to have that priority.

Jay Shetty 39:41 100%, 'cause it needs it.

James Sexton 39:42 So then you start feeling guilty about why do I want this thing?

Jay Shetty 39:46 Correct. Yeah.

James Sexton 39:46 And why do I feel that way? But, but see, I, you know, again, I think it's a perfectly understandable feeling.

Jay Shetty 39:54 Yeah. It's an understandable-

James Sexton 39:55 Like, like you... And it can be articulated to your partner in a way that doesn't create a defensive reaction, I think, because you want your partner to love that child that much, and you love that child that much, but yet there is something about, like, losing a little of your love and attention that is hard for me.

Jay Shetty 40:15 Mm.

James Sexton 40:15 And what a lovely thing for someone to say. Like, if it's said the right way, if it's said, like, "Well, I'm feeling neglected," of course the response would be, "Well, what do you want me to do?"

Jay Shetty 40:24 Yeah.

James Sexton 40:24 Like, "I got two hands. There's only so many hours in the day. I'm sleep deprived. My body's a train wreck right now. Like, what do you... And now I gotta worry about you?"

Jay Shetty 40:31 And that's the script. That's, that is exactly how it is.

James Sexton 40:32 Right, right. And, and an understandable script. Like, I, I get that frustration of how a woman would feel in that situation.

Jay Shetty 40:39 Mm.

James Sexton 40:39 And yet, perhaps if it was parsed differently, you know, the feeling of like, "I admire so much what you're doing. Like, I, I'm falling in love with you all over again, watching you spin these plates that are so important to both of us and giving our child this gift that only you can give. And yet, I have to say, and maybe I'm selfish and maybe I'm foolish and maybe I'm a child myself, like, I just, I miss something about the d- the warmth of you, and I hope we can find a way, you know, to take time to, like, see each other and connect to each other." It, it's so interesting how if you just... And maybe it's 'cause I, my job is to sort of parse argument, you know, that maybe it made me uniquely qualified for this, but I, I find myself thinking that, that almost any of these sentiments, there's a way to parse it-

Jay Shetty 41:36 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 41:37 ... that I think it can actually deepen connection.

Jay Shetty 41:39 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 41:39 And it doesn't bring a defensive response. Because if you say, you know, "Well, we haven't had sex lately. Like, we're, we're having so much less sex than we used to. Like, what, what's going on?" Immediately, your partner's response is gonna be, "Well, what... You know, you've been working all the time, and you know, when you come home, you're tired, and I don't know that you want to. You want me to initiate? Like, what am I supposed to..." And now we're just having this thing. Whereas if you just said, you know, "Oh, like, I miss, like, feeling connected to you, you know? Like, I, I love, like, the, the smell of you, and I love the feeling of your warmth. Like, and I... God, we have to, like, we have to really make time. If I haven't made time for that, like, I really have to. I really want to," what partner wouldn't hear that and go, "Oh, well, yeah, that's important to me, too, and let's-"

Jay Shetty 42:25 Yeah.

James Sexton 42:25 "... you know, like, yeah, let's make a point of doing that." Like, I, I really don't think this has to be. But again, perhaps it's a function of the times we're living in.We're so hyper-partisan all the time, and we're so on the defensive all the time from everything and everyone, you know, that perhaps we're just not approaching those interactions the right way.

Jay Shetty 42:46 Yeah.

James Sexton 42:46 And I'd like, I'd like to think that those same phenomenon can be spun in a direction that can reverse

James Sexton 42:55 that.

Jay Shetty 42:55 Yeah. It's almost like we only know how to share our emotions through a negative lens.

James Sexton 43:02 Right.

Jay Shetty 43:02 I.e., we're not doing this enough.

James Sexton 43:04 Right.

Jay Shetty 43:04 We used to do this.

James Sexton 43:05 Right.

Jay Shetty 43:05 Where's this gone?

James Sexton 43:07 Right.

Jay Shetty 43:07 And all that language is-

James Sexton 43:09 Right

Jay Shetty 43:09 ... looking at the gap, the scarcity-

James Sexton 43:11 Right

Jay Shetty 43:11 ... the missed opportunity.

James Sexton 43:12 Right.

Jay Shetty 43:12 Whereas what you just said was, "Hey, I'd love to connect again," or, "Hey, I'd love to, you know-

James Sexton 43:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 43:17 " ... make some time for this again," or-

James Sexton 43:19 Yeah. "Remember when we da, da, da?"

Jay Shetty 43:20 Yeah.

James Sexton 43:21 Like, "Wasn't that so... God, I was thinking about it the other day, you know, that we went for that walk and how nice it was," and da, da, da.

Jay Shetty 43:27 Yeah. It's a positive thing to move towards.

James Sexton 43:29 And right, and now we're there again. You know, it's... I- I've always... One of my favorite phenomenon is if, you know, we've all been to like a dinner where there's a couple of couples.

Jay Shetty 43:37 [laughs]

James Sexton 43:37 And one of them you're just like, "Man, there was some kind of fight on the way here."

Jay Shetty 43:40 Yeah. [laughs]

James Sexton 43:40 Like, they just got that... There's this energy between them of like-

Jay Shetty 43:43 Yeah

James Sexton 43:43 ... you know, terse, you know. And you're like, "I hope they're not like this all the time, but it might have just been on the ride over." And if... I found as an experiment is if you say to that couple, "So how did the two of you meet?"

Jay Shetty 43:54 Yeah.

James Sexton 43:55 There's this softening that happens-

Jay Shetty 43:57 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 43:57 ... very quickly because all of a sudden they're, in telling the story, they're transported back to, "Oh, well, I was here and she was in the dorm, and we met, and we were on that..." And they're remembering.

Jay Shetty 44:08 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 44:08 You know, they're remembering viscerally, you know, that connection. And I think if we use that in our current relationships to instead of saying, "Hey, we're not," like you said, "focusing on the gap"-

Jay Shetty 44:21 Yeah

James Sexton 44:22 ... instead bringing us back to, "You remember when we did this? Was... God, that was so fun. I remember that so much," or, "Oh, I stumbled on this picture on my phone. You know, uh, Apple just suggested this one for me. Look. Remember that?"

Jay Shetty 44:37 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 44:37 You know, and you go, "Yeah. We should... You know, we, we have to make time to do that again."

Jay Shetty 44:40 Yeah.

James Sexton 44:41 Who wouldn't?

Jay Shetty 44:42 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 44:42 Who wouldn't go, "Oh, yeah, that was really nice," you know? And then even if there is some resistance, even if the person says, "Well, we can't really afford to go there again right now," or, "Oh, you know, with everything going on at work right now, such a bad time," there's at least this shared intention, shared experience of going back to that m- I mean, why do we as a species take a million pictures on our phones?

Jay Shetty 45:06 Mm.

James Sexton 45:06 Because we wanna, like, hold onto it.

Jay Shetty 45:08 Mm.

James Sexton 45:09 You know? I, I, I went to a concert. I, I, I tend to not go out a lot at night 'cause I get up so early, but I went to a concert recently. And it was my first time being at a concert in many years, and everyone had their phones. You know, they're recording, you know, whatever song, you know. And I found myself thinking like, "Do you think that that little box is going to capture this?"

Jay Shetty 45:30 Mm.

James Sexton 45:31 This giant room we're all in, and the vibration of this music. It was a Nine Inch Nails concert, so it was like really heavy and, and I, I just thought like, "Oh, you're mi- you're missing the whole thing."

Jay Shetty 45:43 Mm.

James Sexton 45:44 You're missing the whole thing 'cause you're trying to hold onto something that you won't be able to hold onto. This will be a poor, poor copy-

Jay Shetty 45:54 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 45:54 ... of something. So maybe just... You know, again, I, I... that human desire to capture it so you can have some small taste of it again in the future. Maybe there's a way that that can be used to, like, reconnect us to-

Jay Shetty 46:11 Yeah

James Sexton 46:11 ... who we were, what we felt-

Jay Shetty 46:13 Yeah

James Sexton 46:13 ... and maybe bring it back to the present.

Jay Shetty 46:15 Yeah, absolutely. There's...

Jay Shetty 46:17 It's such a part of that parsing of an argument as you talk about it and part of the ability to initiate. I feel like at the root of it, there's a struggle that we have with our ego where it feels like we don't wanna be the one to look like the beggar or look like the needy one-

James Sexton 46:39 I get that

Jay Shetty 46:39 ... or look like the weak one, and so there's this ego-

James Sexton 46:43 The vulnerability

Jay Shetty 46:43 ... the vulnerability.

James Sexton 46:44 Yeah. It's scary. I, I have to tell you-

Jay Shetty 46:46 Yeah

James Sexton 46:46 ... I struggle with that in every relationship.

Jay Shetty 46:48 Mm.

James Sexton 46:49 I, I... My longtime assistant, Theresa, who's been with me a long time, and she's a wonderful, wonderful assistant, and, uh, she's really the brains of, of my office. You know, she keeps the machine running. And I, I actually have times where it's hard for me to say to her, 'cause I'm moving so fast between things, like, "Could you he- heat up my lunch for me?" Now she has offered this a million times. Like, she's happy to be of assistance to me in any way. Like, she's a wonderful resource in that regard. And she's a, by nature, that kind of person.

Jay Shetty 47:23 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 47:23 Like, I see it in her relationship with her husband and her kids. Like, she just, nothing makes her happier than feeding her family or feeding the people around her. And my... Everyone who calls my office is like, "Oh my God, Theresa's the best." Like, they all love her, um, because there's a warmth. And, and I still have a hard time. Even with such permission, I still have a hard time being vulnerable enough to say, "I need help."

Jay Shetty 47:48 Mm.

James Sexton 47:48 Because that's what I'm saying. Like, it's a minor thing I'm asking for help for, but I'm saying I need help, and that's hard for me to do. It's hard for anyone to do, to say, "I need help," because there's a vulnerability. There's this fear that what if the person goes, "Well, I don't have the time to do that right now." And then that pain, like that's such a child wound, you know, that feeling of like not wanting something and not getting it, and asking for it, being brave enough to ask for it, and not getting it.

Jay Shetty 48:17 Yeah.

James Sexton 48:17 That I, I certainly understand that pain.

Jay Shetty 48:20 Yeah, yeah, and it's one of those ones that you almost have to be willing to go to with the right partner.

James Sexton 48:26 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 48:26 I feel like with the right partner, with the right person, you almost are willing to go there more often-

James Sexton 48:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 48:33 ... because you know they're not judging it, like with someone like Theresa in the-

James Sexton 48:36 Yeah

Jay Shetty 48:36 ... assisting capacity.

James Sexton 48:37 Yeah. But I think you-

Jay Shetty 48:38 Yeah

James Sexton 48:38 ... you fix that-By this step of trying.

Jay Shetty 48:43 Yes.

James Sexton 48:43 Because every time you are vulnerable in that way and the person shows up-

Jay Shetty 48:49 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 48:50 ... that becomes a, a less terrifying and a deeper intimacy, I think.

Jay Shetty 48:54 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 48:54 Like a deeper connection.

Jay Shetty 48:56 Yeah.

James Sexton 48:56 And, and so to give that example, when I've allowed myself to say like, "I'm sorry, I'm going a million miles an hour. Is there any way you could just like heat up my lunch?" And she goes, "Of course. Oh my God, of course." And then she takes the extra step of like she puts it on like a nice little tray, and she brings like a little drink along with it, and like she puts a little, you know, little chips next to it or something. And, and then I feel so loved.

Jay Shetty 49:20 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 49:21 Like legitimately loved. I feel legitimately seen. I feel like not only did you give me what I asked you for, but you gave me like more.

Jay Shetty 49:30 Mm.

James Sexton 49:31 And, and that is just one example of like a relationship that... You know, and of course then I feel that way now about her. Like, if she ever says like, "Oh, I need some time off for this," I'm always, "Of course. Of course," because she always shows up for me. I always try to show up for her. I wanna reciprocate that. So I, I think again, it's, it's a muscle-

Jay Shetty 49:52 Yeah. Yeah

James Sexton 49:52 ... that we have to exercise for it to get stronger and stronger and stronger.

Jay Shetty 49:56 Yeah.

James Sexton 49:56 But that's where in a long-term relationship where you've both been brave enough to do that and to show up for each other, that's where I think you have these people that have this like they're just thick as thieves. You know, they have this bond-

Jay Shetty 50:07 [laughs]

James Sexton 50:07 ... that's never ends up in my office.

Jay Shetty 50:10 Yeah. If, if you were designing a contract for marriage-

James Sexton 50:14 Yeah

Jay Shetty 50:14 ... for modern love, what would you put in it?

James Sexton 50:17 Oh, wow. I'm a lawyer, so we tend to be verbose in our contracts.

Jay Shetty 50:25 [laughs]

James Sexton 50:25 But I would, I would put specific behaviors. I would put, I would put a mandatory weekly check-in.

Jay Shetty 50:34 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 50:35 And I would even create a structure for it. I would say that every week I, I wanna share with you and I want you to share with me something I did this week that made you feel loved.

Jay Shetty 50:46 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 50:48 And I, then I want you to share with me something that made you feel less loved or less seen or where I got it wrong. Like, I want you to tell me where I got it wrong bravely. And then maybe praise sandwich. Tell me something I can do for you this week that would make you feel loved, that you think might make you feel loved or that might be... Because I wanna be good at this job.

Jay Shetty 51:18 Yeah.

James Sexton 51:18 Like, I wanna be good at this job, and it's a job.

Jay Shetty 51:20 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 51:21 Like, loving another person is, it's a, it's a, it's a career.

Jay Shetty 51:25 Mm.

James Sexton 51:25 You know, it's a vocation. And I, I think you have to be brave enough to talk about those things, and I, so I would put that in a contract.

Jay Shetty 51:34 Mm. I like that.

James Sexton 51:35 I, I think that's not a hard thing to do.

Jay Shetty 51:36 I like that. I like that.

James Sexton 51:37 Doesn't cost anything, and I think that it, it wouldn't take a lot of time necessarily, and it would stave off a tremendous amount of things. I would also commit to or pledge to, to hear the things that we say to each other as coming from a place of love and connection. You know, even when we say something the other person might not wanna hear, that it's coming from a desire to protect the bond.

Jay Shetty 52:08 Mm.

James Sexton 52:08 So I would say that is a very worthwhile and worthy pursuit to say, "Look, we've, we've, we've decided we want this particular permutation of relationship." You know, love is, is loaned. It's not permanently gifted.

Jay Shetty 52:26 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 52:27 And so if we wanna protect and preserve it, I think saying to each other that we, we have to have this unflinching ability to kind of hit send now. Like, say to the person like, "Hey, you know, this, this thing's little and I never want it to get big." But then you also have to be willing to hear that as coming from a place not of you're doing it wrong-

Jay Shetty 52:53 Mm

James Sexton 52:54 ... but from a place of I want this to stay-

Jay Shetty 52:58 Yeah

James Sexton 52:58 ... wonderful. This is important to me, you know? And I think if, if those provisions could be complied with, I think that would be very helpful to people. I also think, again, you know, in romantic relationships and, and, you know, this is I think part of the reason why cheating becomes such an issue, you know, sex is the glue. Like, it's the glue. Like, sex is incredibly important to people. Like, the... I mean, it's the difference between having a roommate and having a spouse. You know? Like, there's a, there's a romantic element to it. There's a sexual element to it. There's a physical, not even purely sexual, there's a physical element to it. I can't tell you how many men tell me, "Yeah, we stopped having sex," or, "We st- started having it very infrequently." Some women, but mostly men. And I can't tell you how many women have said to me in the context of divorce that, "Yeah, like the only time he ever touched me was sex. Like, it was just prelude to sex. The only time he ever kissed me was a prelude to s-" I mean, come on. When you first start dating, you could make out for hours. Like, literally there's just nothing more lovely than just the kissing this person. When's the last time people really made out with their spouse, you know? Or just like held their hand or just touched the nearness of them? Good relationships, there's a lot of that.

Jay Shetty 54:27 Mm.

James Sexton 54:27 There's a lot of this physical connection.

Jay Shetty 54:29 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 54:30 And so again, I, I don't think you have to write into the contract any particular frequency or specifics of what sex would need to look like, but I think you have to make somewhere in that contract, especially if I'm gonna take a pledgeThat you're going to be my partner in this

Jay Shetty 54:51 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 54:52 ... in this physical aspect of things. If we're going to be monogamous. You know, I, I used to say in, in the context of dating that if you're going to rob me of solitude, you owe me companionship

Jay Shetty 55:03 Mm.

James Sexton 55:04 Because I enjoy solitude.

Jay Shetty 55:05 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 55:06 So you have to be better than that.

Jay Shetty 55:08 I like that, yeah.

James Sexton 55:09 And companionship is better than that. So if you're gonna rob my solitude, you, you owe me companionship. If you want us to pledge to each other that we will be each other's sexual outlet, we will be each other's sexual connection, we will be each other's intimate touch connection. Again, by intimate touch, I don't even necessarily mean sex.

Jay Shetty 55:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 55:29 I, I... You know, there's an intimacy in holding someone's hand, there's an intimacy in having your hand on their leg. You know, anything you wouldn't do to a stranger on the subway-

Jay Shetty 55:36 [laughs]

James Sexton 55:36 ... put it in that category.

Jay Shetty 55:37 Yeah.

James Sexton 55:38 And I think that if, if we're going to have rules in the relationship, which I think there are good reasons for, then we owe it to each other to see where that is. Now, again, controlling for the possibility that that's okay if that shu- you know, shifts. I think it's okay. Like, I don't think if you sustained the electricity of the initial physical bond people have, like when you're first dating someone and your hand brushes theirs and you just, like, feel it and you're to... Like, if you, if you did that for nine years, man, you would never get anything done.

Jay Shetty 56:13 [laughs]

James Sexton 56:13 Like, you just wouldn't. Like, society would crumble because we'd all just be like, "Oh my God, she walked past me and I smelled her hair."

Jay Shetty 56:18 [laughs]

James Sexton 56:18 You know, like, you just would have that intoxication all the time. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, let's remember that there is some importance to this. It's what makes that relationship a unique and special relationship. And I think it's very easy for people to find surrogate activities, whether it's pornography, whether it's, you know, infidelity, whether that's with a person who's a sex worker, whether that's in the context of an affair, even whether that's in the context of an emotional affair-

Jay Shetty 56:52 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 56:52 ... versus a physical affair. I think it's all about starting to say, "Okay, I'm not getting what I need in this relationship anymore, and it's gonna be hard to have that conversation, so I'll just have this little thing instead." You know, I can't have a meal right now, so I'll just have, like, a little snack bar.

Jay Shetty 57:10 Yeah.

James Sexton 57:11 But if that becomes the staple of your diet, you know, I see this a lot with men in pornography, and I, I, I hear from a lot of my female clients that say, like, "Yeah, he started, like, being much more into porn," and, and I, I think that that is a surrogate activity for a very real need in all of us that, for whatever reason, is no longer being met. Because, again, we're no longer the perfect thing we were. Like, perfect is the enemy of good, you know? And so I think we have to be conscious and communicative about when the physical aspects of our relationship are changing, and again, in a non-defense

James Sexton 57:56 invoking manner.

Jay Shetty 57:57 Yeah.

James Sexton 57:57 So you don't say, "Why don't you ever hold my hand anymore?" Like, the last thing I want to do is hold your hand, you say.

Jay Shetty 58:01 Yeah. [laughs]

James Sexton 58:03 Whereas if you just grab my hand and just go like, "I just want to hold your hand for a minute."

Jay Shetty 58:07 Yeah. Yeah.

James Sexton 58:07 Like, who wouldn't go, "Oh, okay." Like, yeah, that's nice, you know?

Jay Shetty 58:11 Yeah. And that's why you say that cheating's actually a symptom, not a-

James Sexton 58:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 58:16 ... a root.

James Sexton 58:16 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 58:17 You don't believe that it's the reason marriages end, and you don't believe it's the root of the issue.

James Sexton 58:23 No.

Jay Shetty 58:23 It's actually because there's a disconnection or a-

James Sexton 58:25 Yes, I, I'm, I have a very high degree of confidence in that. I think I spend a lot of time with the cheated and the cheated on, you know, or the cheater and the cheated on. I, I spend a lot of time with every permutation of infidelity, and I've talked to people in very candid ways about their affairs, men and women. And there's a, there's a, an emptiness and a sadness in people that have gone that route. Sometimes it's surprising because they will say, "Yeah, this had nothing to do with my wife. Like, this had to do with me, like, and how I felt. Like, it wasn't her. She was love- I've always loved her. I still love her. I just needed this," you know? And, uh, and they didn't really see, like, in that moment, they weren't thinking about their commitment. They thought, "Well, this has nothing to do with that. This is just like a human need, like I'm hungry, so I'm gonna eat." And again, these are powerful forces in us, you know? The desire for sex, the desire for food, the desire for s- Like, these are basic core human things, you know? So I think infidelity is, is something that is a function of disconnection and a function of how fraught the conversation is with your partner about desire and how it change. I mean, how much do we really understand our own desires, you know? It's, it's-- there's something mysterious about it, you know? Like, why do you like dark hair or blonde hair? Why do you like... Like, why do any of us have these weird preferences, you know? Like, but they're there, you know? And maybe they're rooted in, you know, Freud is right, they're rooted in some, you know, very basic childhood things or, you know, maybe they're purely chemical, you know, depends on who you ask. But, but they're a mystery to us. I mean, I, I certainly know it's a mystery to me. Like, I don't... Like, why are breasts so appealing? Like, they don't really do anything-

Jay Shetty 1:00:33 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:00:33 ... unless you're an infant, you know? Like, they're just-- and yet they just make me happy, you know? Like, I don't know. There's something in me that's like, ooh, you know, like, that finds those appealing. So what is it?

Jay Shetty 1:00:43 Mm.

James Sexton 1:00:43 I have no idea, you know? What is it that when I see a, a, a man who has, you know, stubble or a nice beard on his face, I don't feel any desire towards that, and yet-Many of my female friends or gay friends are like, "Oh, I love that. It's so sexy."

Jay Shetty 1:00:57 Mm.

James Sexton 1:00:57 Like, what, what is that? Well, it's just in us.

Jay Shetty 1:01:00 Mm.

James Sexton 1:01:00 It's just part of us, you know? So I, I think that's what makes it hard to articulate-

Jay Shetty 1:01:05 Yeah

James Sexton 1:01:05 ... you know, to our partner when, when it's not being met. Maybe we don't even realize, 'cause we're not looking at ourselves close enough.

Jay Shetty 1:01:12 Yeah. That's

Jay Shetty 1:01:13 why I think the marriage contract that you just laid out-

James Sexton 1:01:15 Right

Jay Shetty 1:01:15 ... is so important.

James Sexton 1:01:16 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:01:17 Because it's so... And, and also a big part of it is a lack of understanding of men and women. Like when you said a few moments ago, you were just like, you know, people have desires. We have a desire to eat. Like, you know, it's the same thing. It's like as a man, that makes a lot of sense-

James Sexton 1:01:30 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:01:31 ... in our brain.

James Sexton 1:01:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:01:32 And the compartmentalization also makes a lot of sense. Like-

James Sexton 1:01:35 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:01:35 ... like I've always said to, when I'm talking to my, uh, friends who are girls who are having trouble in dating, and I'll be like, "Yeah, he sees this as this, and he sees this as that."

James Sexton 1:01:45 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:01:45 Like they're not connected, but-

James Sexton 1:01:46 Uh-huh

Jay Shetty 1:01:47 ... I'm a man. That, that makes sense. And it's almost like we have such a limited understanding, and I'm not saying it's only gender based.

James Sexton 1:01:52 Of course.

Jay Shetty 1:01:53 But there's such a limited understanding-

James Sexton 1:01:55 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:01:56 ... of how the human brain and mind work because-

James Sexton 1:01:58 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:01:58 ... someone's saying, "Well, no, I put the commitment above my desire."

James Sexton 1:02:02 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:02:02 Because the commitment's more important. And the other person goes, "Well, yeah, I just let my desire slip above the commitment."

James Sexton 1:02:07 Right. But you can have both.

Jay Shetty 1:02:09 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:02:10 Like, I genuinely believe you can have the desire and the commitment, like both can be fulfilled, you know?

Jay Shetty 1:02:15 With each other, you mean. Yeah.

James Sexton 1:02:16 I think so.

Jay Shetty 1:02:17 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:02:17 Because I-

Jay Shetty 1:02:17 No, of course. Yeah

James Sexton 1:02:18 ... you know, there's a chapter in my book called Go Without or Go Elsewhere.

Jay Shetty 1:02:21 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:02:21 And that essentially says that most people, if they're unwilling to actively communicate with themselves and with their partner about what's going on with their desire sexually, then you have two choices, and they both suck.

Jay Shetty 1:02:34 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:02:35 Go without or go elsewhere. Nobody wants to go without.

Jay Shetty 1:02:37 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:02:37 And going elsewhere is a very fraught terrain. But it's not surprising to me that the conversation about this has become so challenging.

Jay Shetty 1:02:45 So true.

James Sexton 1:02:45 Because we live in a society that rightfully made some big, big changes in the last 50 years to what does it mean to be a man, what does it mean to be a woman, right? Like we... That, that is fraught terrain still, right? They, they... I mean, I... Growing up, you know, men in my generation, you, you know, you're either Richard Simmons or Clint Eastwood. Those were your two choices. Like you either were, you know, very stoic and very... Or you were gay. That was what the two choices were. Or you wear a feet, you know? And, and now thankfully, one of the beautiful changes that I think has happened in society is we recognize that all of us have, if you wanna call it the masculine and the feminine in us, we all have varying ratios of it, and we've changed what it means to be a man and to be a woman. But we've kind of treated dandruff with decapitation because we've said, hey, these, these fixed models of what is a man and what is a woman and how do men behave and how do women behave, and what is a man's natural tendency, what is a woman's natural tendency, we realize those were prisons.

Jay Shetty 1:03:52 Mm.

James Sexton 1:03:52 And those were creating unequal and unjust outcomes. So I, I applaud that we've taken the step to go, all right, but not all men. Okay, but not all women are that way.

Jay Shetty 1:04:03 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:04:04 But we've gone so far in overcorrecting, as we as a species are prone to doing, that I think now we're not... It's like scandalous to acknowledge what you just acknowledged, which is when, when I'm talking to a group of women who I'm friends with, and I say they're describing something that, you know, a man in their life did, and I go, "Oh, I know exactly what that like..." "No, he saw this," or, "Oh, no, he thought that."

Jay Shetty 1:04:30 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:04:30 They go, "Really?" Like, like I was speak... Like, like I have a Rosetta Stone-

Jay Shetty 1:04:34 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:04:35 ... for a language they don't speak.

Jay Shetty 1:04:36 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:04:36 And by the way, it goes the other way.

Jay Shetty 1:04:38 Yes, 100%.

James Sexton 1:04:39 Like, there are so many times I will listen. I have a office full of women and sometimes in, of different generations, and they'll be talking to each other. And it's a small office, so I can hear their conversation. And sometimes I, I feel like I'm like Margaret Mead observing-

Jay Shetty 1:04:54 [laughs] Me too

James Sexton 1:04:54 ... like the Yanomamö, you know? Like I'm just like a cultural anthropologist who's been dropped into a different planet, you know? 'Cause they're talking about like... I had, one of them said something the other day about, um... She was describing a date she went out on. She said, "Oh, he did that thing where like when I got up from the table, he kind of went to get up but then didn't know if he should get up or not," you know?

Jay Shetty 1:05:15 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:05:16 And the other young woman goes, "Oh, I love that."

Jay Shetty 1:05:20 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:05:20 You know? And I thought, "That is the weirdest."

Jay Shetty 1:05:23 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:05:24 And yet I, I get it, you know? Like, because it, it was like a vulnerability and also a sense of chivalry, but also a sense of con- like being self-conscious and... And I thought like, God, if you said to a guy-

Jay Shetty 1:05:36 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:05:37 ... you know, "Here's... I'm gonna be your new dating coach. I'm gonna be a new pickup artist guy," you know? Like, maybe this is my next career. You know, and, and you point out these strange little things, you know?

Jay Shetty 1:05:47 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:05:48 But to do that, we have to acknowledge that, you know, there are limits to our, our understanding of the opposite sex.

Jay Shetty 1:05:57 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:05:57 And that there, that there is some difference between us, again, hormonal, biological on a very basic level.

Jay Shetty 1:06:05 Yeah. Yeah.

James Sexton 1:06:06 And, you know, I think even men, men's experience of sex, I observe as a man and as friends of many men, it's like much more reductionist and simple.

Jay Shetty 1:06:21 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:06:21 Like, we're very like-

Jay Shetty 1:06:22 Yeah, basic

James Sexton 1:06:22 ... you know, it's like eating. Like it's like, oh, this is great. Yeah, like unloaded the gun, you know, we're good. Whereas like women, in my experience and observation, it's like, well, what feels good like one day, a, two days later doesn't feel as good. And again, some of that is probably hormones.

Jay Shetty 1:06:39 Hormone, yeah.

James Sexton 1:06:39 And some of that is... But I think like learning to navigate a relationship, perhaps same-sex marriages have less of a fraught relationship with that because you understand each other's perhaps biology in a different way.

Jay Shetty 1:06:51 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:06:51 But I think opposite, you know, heterosexual relationshipsWe are really trying to navigate a creature that has some distinct differences from us physically and hormonally. And I think without good communication, how are you supposed to learn that language?

Jay Shetty 1:07:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:07:06 You know?

Jay Shetty 1:07:07 I find that, don't you hear a lot, I'm sure you hear this a lot as well, where like after a while he just didn't wanna communicate.

James Sexton 1:07:13 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07:13 Or like they just didn't wanna communicate.

James Sexton 1:07:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07:15 Where like what you're suggesting is still part of a healthy relationship dynamic where you can initiate something-

James Sexton 1:07:22 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:07:22 ... and even if it's not met immediately-

James Sexton 1:07:24 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:07:24 ... there's a certain point at which-

James Sexton 1:07:26 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:07:26 ... there's a conversation.

James Sexton 1:07:28 But it wasn't on the first date.

Jay Shetty 1:07:29 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:07:30 Like, it wasn't on the first date. Like, and see that, see, that's the thing that I think makes marriage such an interesting entry point for a conversation about love.

Jay Shetty 1:07:40 Mm.

James Sexton 1:07:41 'Cause I don't know that the two correlate.

Jay Shetty 1:07:43 Agreed, yeah.

James Sexton 1:07:43 And I certainly don't think there's causation.

Jay Shetty 1:07:45 Mm-mm.

James Sexton 1:07:45 I don't think marriage makes you really love each other more deeply-

Jay Shetty 1:07:48 No

James Sexton 1:07:48 ... or more likely to be fidelitous.

Jay Shetty 1:07:50 No.

James Sexton 1:07:50 I don't think it does that at all.

Jay Shetty 1:07:51 No.

James Sexton 1:07:51 It may have the opposite effect in some way.

Jay Shetty 1:07:53 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:07:54 But what it does give us is an entry point into, we were at some point so enamored with each other that we said, "Out of the eight billion options, I'm picking you." I mean, that is a gigantic... Like, I live in New York City. There's a lot of restaurants. Sometimes I am paralyzed by the number of choices. When I go, "Okay, I'm gonna order something," there's so many options all within three blocks of my apartment. Eight billion options, and you chose this person, and they chose you. So at some point there is this abundance of goodwill, this abundance of connection. And when I wrote the book, it really wasn't meant for people who were in crisis. It was really meant for people who were not.

Jay Shetty 1:08:50 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:08:50 It was meant to be a wedding gift.

Jay Shetty 1:08:53 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:08:53 It was meant to be something you give to an engaged couple to say, it's like you just got the new car. Here's how you maintain it-

Jay Shetty 1:09:02 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 1:09:02 ... so that it stays, because this is a car you're gonna drive for the rest of your life.

Jay Shetty 1:09:07 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:09:08 So don't you wanna take care of it? If I said to you, "You're gonna have one car for the rest of your life," you would change the oil.

Jay Shetty 1:09:13 Absolutely.

James Sexton 1:09:14 You would check the ti- You would do routine preventative maintenance, 'cause this is the only car I'm ever gonna have, and if it starts to fall apart, it's the only car I have, and I don't wanna walk everywhere. So I, I am going to take very good care of this. And so I think leveraging, like when you say people say, and I hear it all the time, you're absolutely correct, like, "Yeah, he just stopped talking to me," is that a function of the fact that the way we were communicating wasn't productive? It made this person feel defensive. It made them shut down. Like, because at some point you were still connecting.

Jay Shetty 1:09:48 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:09:49 And it's so, so there was a, there was a story you were writing, and you lost the plot, and that's okay. Like, I love to read, and I read at night. It's sort of like my brain's signal to go to sleep. And I have to tell you, so many times I'm reading, and I'm tired, and I'm in bed, and I realize I don't remember what the last several paragraphs were.

Jay Shetty 1:10:12 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's-

James Sexton 1:10:13 So I have to sort of stop and go, "Okay, let me go back. Let me go back to where I lost the plot."

Jay Shetty 1:10:19 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:10:20 That's what I would say, is that if you're at a place in your relationship where unfortunately one or both of you are not communicating anymore, I don't think the answer is keep going in that direction. I think the answer is, where did we lose the plot? And then I think there are some ways to try to correct back to it. You won't be surprised to hear that when people tell you the story of their life, they're usually the hero.

Jay Shetty 1:10:45 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

James Sexton 1:10:47 And so when-

Jay Shetty 1:10:48 Yeah

James Sexton 1:10:48 ... when people come into my office and they tell me the story of their marriage-

Jay Shetty 1:10:53 Yeah, yeah. It's always

James Sexton 1:10:54 ... you know, David Byrne in The Talking Heads said, um, "Facts all come with points of view, and facts don't do what I want them to."

Jay Shetty 1:10:59 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:10:59 And I think that my, my career has been a, a real example of that.

Jay Shetty 1:11:04 Totally, totally.

James Sexton 1:11:05 Because you, you do... It's actually how I know I'm probably gonna get along with a client-

Jay Shetty 1:11:11 Yes

James Sexton 1:11:11 ... is if when they tell the story of their marriage-

Jay Shetty 1:11:14 Yeah

James Sexton 1:11:14 ... they, they're neither the hero nor the villain.

Jay Shetty 1:11:17 Yes. Yes, yes.

James Sexton 1:11:18 You know? Like, if I said to you, "Tell me about your marriage" -

Jay Shetty 1:11:21 Yeah

James Sexton 1:11:22 ... and you said, you know, "Here's the things I think I do right."

Jay Shetty 1:11:25 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:11:26 "And here's the things I could get better at."

Jay Shetty 1:11:28 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:11:28 "And here's the things I'm abysmally bad at, and I'd like to get better," w- we're in a good place.

Jay Shetty 1:11:34 Yeah, yeah. Exactly, yeah.

James Sexton 1:11:35 We're in a good place.

Jay Shetty 1:11:36 But that's not happening when you go to get a divorce. That's the point. It's like-

James Sexton 1:11:39 When you go to get a divorce-

Jay Shetty 1:11:40 Yeah

James Sexton 1:11:40 ... it's usually I've got a halo, they've got horns.

Jay Shetty 1:11:44 Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

James Sexton 1:11:45 Let's get after it, you know?

Jay Shetty 1:11:46 Yeah, yeah. Of course. Of course.

James Sexton 1:11:46 And that's-

Jay Shetty 1:11:47 'Cause you wanna get someone on side.

James Sexton 1:11:49 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:11:49 And then you re- Yeah, I have similar in... I mean, I coach people and couples and work with people, and like you said, people, people lie to their kind of therapist, coaches in that lane.

James Sexton 1:11:59 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:11:59 And that's for sure, 'cause-

James Sexton 1:12:00 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:12:01 ... someone will come to me and said they had their heart broken, and then as time goes on, they'll send me emails that the other person sent them, and-

James Sexton 1:12:07 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:12:07 ... the emails actually seem really-

James Sexton 1:12:09 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:12:09 ... thoughtful and comprehensive and, like, very, uh, emotionally intelligent and articulate.

James Sexton 1:12:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:12:15 And you're like, "Wait a minute. Like-"

James Sexton 1:12:17 What, what happened here?

Jay Shetty 1:12:18 "... you told me that this person was the devil."

James Sexton 1:12:20 Uh, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:12:20 "And now I'm reading their emails, 'cause you had to share them with me because of some context."

James Sexton 1:12:25 That's why I said I think the most dangerous lies are the ones you tell yourself.

Jay Shetty 1:12:28 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:12:29 You know?

Jay Shetty 1:12:29 And you need them for survival.

James Sexton 1:12:30 And you don't even know, sometimes you don't even know that you're lying.

Jay Shetty 1:12:32 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:12:32 Like, you just, you know, you're just so caught in your view of the thing.

Jay Shetty 1:12:37 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:12:37 And we hold onto that so tight, you know?

Jay Shetty 1:12:39 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:12:39 Like, 'cause it... Again, I feel like if, if, if we can acknowledge that we're a mystery to ourself, you know, that, that, that feels powerless and frightening. I mean, so much of what we do wrong we do for a feeling of control-

Jay Shetty 1:12:51 Yes

James Sexton 1:12:51 ... that we don't actually have.

Jay Shetty 1:12:52 Yes, yes.

James Sexton 1:12:53 I think that might be the secret is to, like, learn how to fi- You know, there's a, there's a axiom, um-That if you don't learn how to find joy in the snow, you'll have less joy in your life and precisely the same amount of snow.

Jay Shetty 1:13:07 [laughs] Yeah.

James Sexton 1:13:08 Like, so I, I feel like if you don't learn how to find joy and peace in chaos, you will have less joy and peace-

Jay Shetty 1:13:18 Yeah

James Sexton 1:13:18 ... and precisely the same amount of chaos.

Jay Shetty 1:13:20 Yes. Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:13:21 So, 'cause chaos is the lack of control.

Jay Shetty 1:13:23 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:13:23 You know? So I think that's a big piece.

Jay Shetty 1:13:24 Yeah. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Sim- I, I learned a lot of similar lessons in the monastery when, uh, uh, I'm, I'm totally digressing but-

James Sexton 1:13:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:13:32 ... we, uh, we're on this two to three-day train journey in India from north to south, 48 hours roughly-

James Sexton 1:13:40 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:13:40 ... with a bunch of stops. It's a long journey, and the toilets are, are so dirty in India. I don't know if you've ever been.

James Sexton 1:13:45 No, not yet.

Jay Shetty 1:13:45 It's like the toilet on a public train in India-

James Sexton 1:13:48 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:13:48 ... is like walking into a sewage system.

James Sexton 1:13:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:13:51 And so I decide I'm gonna fast for three da- Like, I'm not gonna eat-

James Sexton 1:13:54 Yeah. Yeah. That's-

Jay Shetty 1:13:54 ... because I can't, I don't wanna use the bathroom. [laughs]

James Sexton 1:13:56 I don't wanna be in that position.

Jay Shetty 1:13:57 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:13:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:13:57 And so, and I'm getting off at the stops to meditate because the train, a public train in coach is like-

James Sexton 1:14:04 Yeah, your bodies, right?

Jay Shetty 1:14:05 There's like no s- Like, and I've-

James Sexton 1:14:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:14:07 We've go- I'm meant to have a bunk.

James Sexton 1:14:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:14:09 But I have my seat because everyone's sitting next to me. There's people sitting on the floor.

James Sexton 1:14:13 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:14:13 Lying down on the floor.

James Sexton 1:14:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:14:14 They've got their cycle, they've got their tires-

James Sexton 1:14:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:14:16 ... they've got everything. [inhales] So I get off at the stops to meditate, and then my, my teacher goes to me afterward, he goes, "What are you up to?" And I go, my monk teacher, and I go, "What?" He goes, "What are you doing?" And I go, "Oh, well, like, I'm getting off, finding a quiet spot, meditating," 'cause there's, because it's a long haul. And it's like 10, 20 minutes, and then I jump back on the train when I hear the, hear the, you know, the, the train's about to take off. And he goes, "Do you think life's gonna be like the chaotic train?"

James Sexton 1:14:38 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:14:39 "Or do you think it's gonna be like the peaceful stop?"

James Sexton 1:14:41 Right. Right.

Jay Shetty 1:14:41 And I was like, "Oh, I get it."

James Sexton 1:14:42 Oh, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:14:42 Like, and he was just like, "Learn to meditate on the train," he was like-

James Sexton 1:14:45 Wise teacher. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:14:45 Yeah, and so, and it's your point. It's, uh, it's the same thing as like learn to meditate on the train. Like-

James Sexton 1:14:48 But I think there's value also-

Jay Shetty 1:14:50 ... learn to find the joy in the snow

James Sexton 1:14:51 ... like i- in the context of what we're talking about.

Jay Shetty 1:14:54 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:14:54 Because it's very funny to me when people say, you know, um, "We've been having some rough patches in our marriage, so we're gonna go on vacation together." And I think there's value in that because we're gonna give each other our undivided attention.

Jay Shetty 1:15:06 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:15:06 But I don't think, it's like why the, those TV shows like The Bachelor and things like that.

Jay Shetty 1:15:11 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:15:11 Like, it's not hard to feel in love with someone when you're on a beautiful idyllic setting, and you have nothing to do all day except sort of love on each other.

Jay Shetty 1:15:19 Totally. [laughs] Yeah.

James Sexton 1:15:19 Like with, with, in bikinis and shorts.

Jay Shetty 1:15:22 Yeah. [laughs]

James Sexton 1:15:22 Like, like, the hard part is in the midst of all of the day-to-day.

Jay Shetty 1:15:27 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:15:27 How do we maintain connection?

Jay Shetty 1:15:29 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:15:30 Like, how do we find peace in the storm?

Jay Shetty 1:15:32 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:15:32 Because life is constantly going to be the packed train and the storm and the chaos. So how do we maintain that depth of connection?

Jay Shetty 1:15:41 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:15:41 Because by the way, that's when we need it. Like, when you need serenity that comes from meditation is not when you're sitting by the idyllic beautiful stream in the peace and quiet.

Jay Shetty 1:15:52 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:15:52 You, that is by definition going to be a peaceful serene moment.

Jay Shetty 1:15:56 [laughs] Yeah.

James Sexton 1:15:56 Like, you need to find that in the chaos of the day-to-day.

Jay Shetty 1:16:00 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:16:00 And you need to find it on the packed train. So yeah, I mean, how do you learn to do it except to do it?

Jay Shetty 1:16:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:16:05 Absolutely.

James Sexton 1:16:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:16:06 Should, should everyone get a prenup?

James Sexton 1:16:08 Yes. Well-

Jay Shetty 1:16:09 You-

James Sexton 1:16:09 I'll actually take a-

Jay Shetty 1:16:10 Yeah

James Sexton 1:16:11 ... different approach to that. Everyone has a prenup. You have a prenup. Everyone has a prenup.

Jay Shetty 1:16:16 Mm.

James Sexton 1:16:16 It's either one that's written by the government or it's one that's written by you and the person who you allege you love more than the other eight billion other options.

Jay Shetty 1:16:25 Mm.

James Sexton 1:16:25 But every, 'cause what is a prenup? A prenup is a contract where two people agree to specific rules that will apply to their marriage if it ends in something other than death.

Jay Shetty 1:16:36 Mm.

James Sexton 1:16:37 It's a weird way to parse it, but it's completely 100% accurate. So all marriages end, death or divorce. You hope yours ends in death. That's a weird thing to say, but it is. You hope it ends in death, till death do us part. But if it doesn't, there's a rule set that will apply. Who should write that rule set? Whether you're on the left or the right or the unhappy middle right now, we can all agree that the government, there's some issues, whatever government we're talking about. Like, every, every country, everyone goes, "There's some things I don't..." Anyone who's ever been to the DMV, I've never walked into the DMV and thought, "These people should be in charge of everything. This is great. This is the best and brightest minds working in the most efficient manner possible. I should let them make the rules that govern my marriage." So if you don't have a prenup, what you are saying is, "I trust the government, present and future, a government I haven't even seen yet." Because instead of writing this contract with my partner and amending it from time to time if we'd like, changing it as our circumstances change, I'm going to trust that the rule set that will be in effect at a time in the future uncertain, that that will be a rule set that is best for me.

Jay Shetty 1:18:00 Mm.

James Sexton 1:18:01 That's crazy. That's absolutely go- There is nothing about that that is rational at all. What you're simply saying is, "I don't wanna have this conversation right now. I'll just, whatever. Whatever they're serving at the restaurant, I'll eat." And I think that that's very shortsighted, but it's a function of the fact that we've been taught to view prenups a certain way.

Jay Shetty 1:18:22 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:18:22 And that is that you have a lack of confidence in the staying power of this relationship. I, I think that's changing, and I'm grateful for that.

Jay Shetty 1:18:30 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:18:30 Not just from a professional standpoint because there's never been a divorce lawyer that made very much money on prenups.

Jay Shetty 1:18:35 Right.

James Sexton 1:18:35 Like, we, we, it's just not a high profit item. Litigation, there's much more money in helping people tear each other to shreds in a courtroom than there ever was in mediation or in prenuptial agreements. Prenuptial agreements, if anything, are bad for divorce lawyers because they simplify-

Jay Shetty 1:18:50 Right

James Sexton 1:18:50 ... the uncoupling if it happens-

Jay Shetty 1:18:52 Right

James Sexton 1:18:52 ... because you have a rule set.

Jay Shetty 1:18:53 Yeah, that makes sense.

James Sexton 1:18:54 But, but I always, I think we need, we are seeing, I think, some changes in the way we're normalizing prenups as a society, and I think that's really, really healthy.

Jay Shetty 1:19:03 Well, I think it's even the way you just spoke about it because I think when you realize, oh, you have one anyway-And, and when that kind of locks in, you go, "Oh yeah, we..." Because, you know, that's the fascinating thing about marriage is that you don't even... It's been so normalized-

James Sexton 1:19:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:19:16 ... that you don't even realize that you're getting into a contract-

James Sexton 1:19:19 It's, it's the most-

Jay Shetty 1:19:19 ... with the state and with each other

James Sexton 1:19:21 ... it's the most legally significant thing you will do in your life other than dying. Seriously. Like, you buy an apartment, there's lead paint disclosures, a HUD-1, there's a million forms that disclose information. You get married, you don't even get a pamphlet. Nothing. Literally nothing. You get no explana- the first time most people learn what happened legally when they got married is when they're in my office.

Jay Shetty 1:19:42 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:19:42 Which is the worst possible time to learn that. Like, you don't wanna learn how to fight when you're in a fight.

Jay Shetty 1:19:49 Totally.

James Sexton 1:19:49 You need to learn in advance, as far in advance as possible. So I, I have always thought, like, we would do the world a tremendous service by having anyone who's gonna get married have some premarital education component.

Jay Shetty 1:20:02 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:20:02 At least understand what you're signing on for. The problem with it is, without a prenup, it is, it is the most significant contract you would ever sign, the marriage contract, okay? But it can be changed without your consent and without your knowledge by the government in giant ways. And unlike other contracts, like if I, if I had a contract to... Like, what's a contract most of us do? Like an apartment. I, I... A lease. A lease is a contract. So I'm going to rent this... I'm gonna give you money, you're gonna let me stay in this apartment. Totally fair contract. If one day you as the landlord come in and say, "Oh, um, I know we have that contract. You're gonna be in a different apartment. It's much smaller and smells."

Jay Shetty 1:20:48 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:20:49 Then what do I say? "Okay, well, then no, you're breaking the lease, so now I'm not going to pay you." That's fair. That's not how it works in the marriage contract. In the marriage contract, when the state says, "Oh yeah, alimony now has a formula," or, "Alimony is no longer taxable," or, "Now, uh, this is what we're going to do with the division of property," you can't say, "Oh, well, that's not the, that's not the rules I signed on for, so now we're just gonna end this."

Jay Shetty 1:21:15 Wow.

James Sexton 1:21:15 No, no, you're not allowed. You're not allowed. You can't opt out of the contract, and they can change, the government can change the... So again, you know, I have lots of conservative friends, and they're all very quick to talk about, you know, marriage is so important, and no-fault divorce is the scourge of the universe. And, and I always say to them, I'm like, "You have a tremendous amount of confidence in the government if you're getting married without a prenup."

Jay Shetty 1:21:37 Mm.

James Sexton 1:21:37 A tremendous amount. Because you're saying, not only is the present rule set, that I don't necessarily understand, acceptable to me, but any future rule set. And over the last 20 years, at least in the United States, but most countries that I can think of, there has been shifts in government-

Jay Shetty 1:21:54 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 1:21:54 ... where at any particular time, someone would say, "Oh, I think the president is terrible." I have several friends that four years ago thought the president was terrible, and I have friends who think that this current president is terrible. So whichever side of the aisle you're on, we should have a healthy distrust of allowing the government to make a contract for us that we can't get out of.

Jay Shetty 1:22:13 Mm.

James Sexton 1:22:13 And, and I think that's what a prenup... A prenup takes it out of the hands of the government and puts it, I think, where it belongs, with these-

Jay Shetty 1:22:20 Yeah

James Sexton 1:22:20 ... two people. But what's the problem? It's not the expense. One of the cheapest things we do. We have to have that conversation.

Jay Shetty 1:22:26 Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's a great... It's actually... So I had a friend who got married recently, and, you know, in love, everything else, and before the marriage, they decided to do a prenup. And he was talking about how hard it was to bring it up, how hard it was to have the conversation, but he was saying that it actually gave them all the skills they'll need [laughs] -

James Sexton 1:22:44 Oh my God, it's so good

Jay Shetty 1:22:45 ... for the most difficult conversation. [laughs]

James Sexton 1:22:47 I have to tell you, I've had a number of clients, many, who come in and say, "I don't even know how to bring this up." Like, I represent a lot of people in finance, a lot of men in finance, young men, late 20s, early 30s, high net worth, and they're marrying someone who's not in that space. So they're, they're marrying a yoga teacher, or they're marrying, you know, someone who's an artist, and they say, "Look, I, I have a lot of confidence in the marriage. I wouldn't marry this person if I didn't believe in it. But I, you know, I wanna have some protections in place." And, uh, these are people who are phenomenal at their jobs. Their jobs involve a tremendous amount of risk.

Jay Shetty 1:23:23 Mm.

James Sexton 1:23:23 Like, they're so much less risk-averse than I am. Like, they, you know, they move markets, you know, and they make big bets, you know? And they're terrified-

Jay Shetty 1:23:33 Mm

James Sexton 1:23:34 ... of saying, "Hey, you know, we're getting married and all."

Jay Shetty 1:23:38 Mm.

James Sexton 1:23:38 "Like, there's gonna be rules that, you know, govern this, and, like, maybe we should be the ones to make the rules."

Jay Shetty 1:23:44 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:23:44 Because it's met with such a sense of, "What do you mean? What do you..." And by the way, it also creates in the person who has perhaps less incentive in that situation to, to have a prenup, that a prenup would be worse for them rather than better in the event of a divorce. Again, at that moment, you don't know what the future holds for anybody. It, that, that person has plausible deniability as to why they're against it.

Jay Shetty 1:24:05 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:24:06 Like, they're not gonna say, "Well, no, I don't want a prenup 'cause I wanna be able to take you for everything you're worth." What they would say is, "Oh, well, no. Why would you w- need a prenup? Like, we're gonna stay married forever, don't you, wouldn't you bet on that? You bet on this stock."

Jay Shetty 1:24:18 Mm.

James Sexton 1:24:19 "You won't bet on this?" Like, and ha- but here's the problem. It's, it's not betting on a stock because, you know, investing in a stock, I know my maximum loss is whatever I put in, right? So it goes to zero. So I know what my loss is. It's more like shorting a stock-

Jay Shetty 1:24:36 Mm

James Sexton 1:24:36 ... where there's almost no limit to how much you could potentially lose, 'cause you're talking about a future you-

Jay Shetty 1:24:41 Yeah

James Sexton 1:24:42 ... that you can't foresee at this moment what it's gonna look like. So yeah, it's a, it's the same phenomenon that I think... But it's, but I have had clients who then come to me and say, "You know, even if we never got a prenup, having conversations about it-"

Jay Shetty 1:24:59 Yeah

James Sexton 1:25:00 ... was so good."

Jay Shetty 1:25:01 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:25:02 Because really, the way that I... And I do get calls from a lot of particularly young men, but, but both genders, saying, "How do I have a conversation about a prenup?"And I've always thought a really great entry point is to say what I believe to be true, which is it's very hard to feel loved if you don't feel safe.

Jay Shetty 1:25:23 Mm.

James Sexton 1:25:23 That everyone should feel safe.

Jay Shetty 1:25:25 Mm.

James Sexton 1:25:25 Like I- I've represented victims of, of domestic violence for many years, and I can tell you, if you love someone, you want them to be safe.

Jay Shetty 1:25:32 Mm.

James Sexton 1:25:32 It's fundamental, right? So I, I think that's a good entry point-

Jay Shetty 1:25:37 Yeah

James Sexton 1:25:37 ... to say, what do we each need to feel safe?

Jay Shetty 1:25:40 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:25:41 And most of the time I think if you parse it that way ... You know, someone said to me, "Look, I, I will marry you, and I, I ... But in the event we split up because you have more than me, I don't wanna have nothing."

Jay Shetty 1:25:57 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:25:57 "I, I want to have some security." Who could argue with that? Who could argue with the logic of that?

Jay Shetty 1:26:02 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:26:02 Like, of course. Of course. And by the way, I don't want you to be with me purely out of the sense that, well, what am I gonna do? I'm gonna be destitute if I'm not with you. I w- I want you to have the option of not being here. Like, if your spouse is only not cheating on you 'cause you're tracking their location, what kind of security is that really?

Jay Shetty 1:26:19 Mm.

James Sexton 1:26:19 If that's the only thing preventing them. So I think it's the same thing. Like saying to someone, "Look, I want to feel you're owed something," but are you owed everything?

Jay Shetty 1:26:28 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:26:28 Okay, we agree you're not owed everything. "Hey, I'm going to need help from you if we split up." Of course, you're gonna need help, so let's figure out what that looks like. Let's have a conversation about how to make each other feel safe. That feels like an act of love to me.

Jay Shetty 1:26:41 Yeah. Yeah. I think that's ... Yeah, and that's a much healthier way to have that conversation.

James Sexton 1:26:45 And I think it's totally honest.

Jay Shetty 1:26:47 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:26:47 I really do. I think it's totally honest because even a lot of my job is figuring out what people are actually trying to say.

Jay Shetty 1:26:56 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

James Sexton 1:26:58 You know? Like, when, when, when someone says, "I want 50/50 custody. I want 50/50 custody," like, no sane person analyzes their time with their children by percentages. Like, I never when my kids were young went, "You know, I've only spent 47% of the time with this ... We- y- grab your glove, Billy. We gotta go outside and have 3% of time." Like, that's insane. It's an insane way to analyze something. So really what is a man saying if he comes in and says, "I want 50/50 custody," he's saying, "I don't wanna be an uninvolved second-class parent. I don't wanna be, like, the fun parent and the other person does all the big decisions and heavy lifting. Like, I wanna be actively involved in the hard part and the fun part." That's a very worthwhile sentiment.

Jay Shetty 1:27:36 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:27:36 Like-

Jay Shetty 1:27:36 And that's the, that's the thing we need to learn to say.

James Sexton 1:27:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:27:39 Because when you hear that, there's just so much-

James Sexton 1:27:41 You argue with it.

Jay Shetty 1:27:41 Yeah. There's so much depth to it. There's so much-

James Sexton 1:27:43 But, but when you argue both sides of every issue for 25 years, you really do start to figure out that a lot of this is, like, what we're saying underneath what we're saying, like the position that we're taking versus the principles behind it, a lot of this is just, like, miscommunication. And I don't mean miscommunication in that you're, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Jay Shetty 1:28:08 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:28:09 I mean that we're not really even in touch with what we're trying-

Jay Shetty 1:28:12 That's what it is

James Sexton 1:28:13 ... to say.

Jay Shetty 1:28:13 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:28:13 You know?

Jay Shetty 1:28:14 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:28:14 'Cause again, even the, the practical example of like, "Well, we never have sex anymore. We don't have sex as much as we used to," common refrain in people's marriages, what you're really saying underneath that is so lovely.

Jay Shetty 1:28:26 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:28:26 Like, that I love that aspect of us. When I don't have it, I miss it. Who wouldn't want to be told, "When you're away, I miss you"? Why? Because when you're here, it makes my life better.

Jay Shetty 1:28:39 Mm.

James Sexton 1:28:39 What, what could be sweeter than to have someone feel that way about you? But when you say it as, "Oh, you're going to the office again tonight?" Well, okay, now I'm on the defensive.

Jay Shetty 1:28:49 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:28:49 Well, and by the way, and me saying, "Well, I have to. I've got this," you know? Whereas if you said, "You know, I'm terrified."

Jay Shetty 1:28:56 Mm.

James Sexton 1:28:56 "Like, I wanna be a really good provider to you. Like, I w- I- you've trusted me to keep you safe and to give you and our kids the things we need, and I feel that weight sometimes. And like, I don't know, maybe I'm doing too much, but God, I'd rather do too much than do too little 'cause I'm terrified I'm gonna fail you."

Jay Shetty 1:29:14 Mm.

James Sexton 1:29:14 Who wouldn't say to that person, "Okay, co- you know, go. And also, know I'll love you even if you fail."

Jay Shetty 1:29:21 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:29:21 Like, what a lovely thing if we could just put down that ego-driven myopia that we all have because I think underneath all of this ... You know, I, I, I don't believe people do evil 'cause they're evil. I think they mistake it for happiness.

Jay Shetty 1:29:41 Mm-hmm. Yeah. That, I mean, even just hearing you say that, it just

Jay Shetty 1:29:45 like, you know, kind of gives me goosebumps and just kind of hits there because you're like, gosh, how many, how many people would save the time, the money, the energy, the-

James Sexton 1:29:57 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:29:57 ... pain that they go through simply because we didn't explain our anger, we just expressed it.

James Sexton 1:30:03 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:30:03 And-

James Sexton 1:30:03 And we didn't understand it ourselves.

Jay Shetty 1:30:05 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:30:05 You know, I, I joke that I don't do much mediation. Uh, I, I used to do more of it. Litigation's more lucrative, so unfortunately it's taken a back s- and I've gotten very, I'm very good at courtroom work, so I, I've sort of found a niche that, you know, works for me. But I used to joke that mediation, you're ... I used to say I was an English translator because I would always do shuttle diplomacy, and I would put them in separate rooms, and I would get them to talk to me candidly about what they were dealing with. And they would say like, you know, "Well, I don't want him bringing the kids around that whore of a girlfriend of his," da, da, da. And then I'd go in the other room and I'd say, "You know, she has some concerns about how the children are being exposed to new relationships, and I'm sure when she's in a new relationship that's a, that's a concern you could share." And he's like, "Well, yeah, of course. You know, we shouldn't both be, you know, introducing the kids to someone we're not serious about." I'm like, "Exactly."

Jay Shetty 1:31:00 Mm.

James Sexton 1:31:01 You know, you don't want your kids to feel untethered and that. Now we're having a useful conversation. But if I'd let them go at it with each other-

Jay Shetty 1:31:08 Yeah

James Sexton 1:31:08 ... it, it, the way it, the minute it comes out, there's this feeling of like, [growls] you know, and now we're positional, and now we're-

Jay Shetty 1:31:15 Yeah

James Sexton 1:31:16 ... right at it.

Jay Shetty 1:31:17 Yeah. What's

Jay Shetty 1:31:18 something you've heard in your office or in court that broke your heart?

James Sexton 1:31:22 Like I said, I'm sensitive, so I think a lot of things break my heart. Um, [sighs] you know, I, I've developed such a professional callus that it shocks me sometimes because things that should register on my emotional radar, but I, I think I would be, I think I would be much less effective at what I do if I let that happen. You know? Like, I, I have a friend who's a pediatric oncologist, and I said to him once, "How do you do that job and not just cry all day?" Like, you're just with children with cancer all day. I can't-- That would be like one of the rings of hell for me. And he said, "Uh, it's not hard." He said, "I, that's, I'm here t-to be of service, and I will be less effective if I allow myself to do that. So I have to learn to turn that part of me off. I have to see this, not lose my humanity, not lose..." You know, there's a saying from Resus Sardonicus, um, he said, um, "I have resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in order to attain certain specific objectives for people whose suffering is greater than my need to maintain moral purity."

Jay Shetty 1:32:51 Mm.

James Sexton 1:32:53 So I think sometimes-

Jay Shetty 1:32:55 So good

James Sexton 1:32:55 ... I find myself saying I, I, I, I believe-- I, I represent the client, but I also represent the system.

Jay Shetty 1:33:04 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:33:05 And I don't always believe in the client, but I have to believe in the system. And so the things that break my heart most often is when I am used as an instrument for cruelty to another person, or when people in a courtroom lose because they can't afford better representation. I, I think in our judicial system in the United States, unfortunately, you get as much justice as you can afford sometimes. And it's not supposed to be that way. It's supposed to be equal protection under law. It's really supposed to be-- It's what drew me to the field, is this sense that, like, a multimillionaire and a poor person have equal protection under law, and you're supposed to have vigorous representation. But this is like any other field. Like, there are people that are excellent at it, and the people that are excellent at it very often rise to the top and start to only represent-- Like, I, I jokingly say that, you know, I represent all kinds of people, gay people, straight people, Black people, white people. I don't represent poor people very often. You know? I'm, I'm $850 an hour, and so people sometimes get less apt counsel that's less expensive, and the only thing more expensive than a good divorce lawyer is a bad one. So I think sometimes that's a very unfortunate reality of our system. I'd like to think that at some chapter in the not too distant future, I'll, I'll be at a place in my career where I can just, like, quit private practice and work for, like, a legal services agency. I've seen a couple of my colleagues do that, and I, I'm just cheering for them because they suddenly bring, like, this massive amount of experience and talent to bear for, for, to create access to justice. So I think the things that break my heart in courtrooms are not what you'd think, which is the day-to-day testimony of listening to the pain of people and their children. It, it really is when the system fails.

Jay Shetty 1:35:04 Mm.

James Sexton 1:35:05 There are some judges that should not be wearing a robe, like they're supposed to stand for something.

Jay Shetty 1:35:10 Mm.

James Sexton 1:35:10 And some of them don't. And a bad lawyer can screw things up, but a bad judge can really screw things up in a gigantic way. They have-- They are given power, and with great power comes great responsibility, and some of them do not deserve it. They, they do not-- They, they are not-- They won a popularity contest. Like, New York has an elected judiciary, so they won a popularity contest.

Jay Shetty 1:35:38 Mm.

James Sexton 1:35:39 And we're blessed. I have some judges I appear in front of who they are perfect for the role. They have the temperament. They have the experience. They have, they have the empathy. Like, but there are some that, you know, they're drunk on the power of it. They're mad at the world. They're mad at their own ex-wife or ex-husband, and they're taking it out on people in a courtroom. And when that happens, that's, um, there's a powerlessness in that, that I, I have a very hard time navigating because I can't be the out cause. Like, I don't know how to fix that.

Jay Shetty 1:36:15 Mm.

James Sexton 1:36:16 You know?

Jay Shetty 1:36:17 How does someone know, and how do you know about-- H-how does someone know if they should keep trying to fix a relationship or it's time to get a divorce?

James Sexton 1:36:26 I mean, that's such a subjective assessment.

Jay Shetty 1:36:28 Mm.

James Sexton 1:36:31 I'm a fan of, you know, there's that old axiom that, you know, quitters never win and winners never quit. But if you never win and you never quit, you're an idiot. [laughs] So at some point, like at some point, I think people have to know it's time. You know? I was a hospice volunteer for many years, and the biggest thing that anyone who works in hospice will tell you is that people call hospice too late. Like, there's so much that you can do in palliative care if they come to you earlier, and, and they come to you early in the process. If someone has a terminal diagnosis, even if they're not ready for hospice care yet, you can put a plan in place.

Jay Shetty 1:37:23 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:37:23 "Okay, when we hit this milestone, we're gonna do this, and when we hit this..." We can't add years to your life, but we can add life to your years, you know?By the time people are in my office, it's so far down that road that it's, I think, quite hard to find-

Jay Shetty 1:37:40 Yeah

James Sexton 1:37:40 ... your way back.

Jay Shetty 1:37:41 Right.

James Sexton 1:37:41 So I, I think, um, when you've reached the point in a relationship where you have made real good faith efforts to identify and address the distance, and that has been wholly unsuccessful, and the other person is not committed, maybe not in the same level of commitment as you, but not committed at all, 'cause identifying that there is a problem is the first piece. So if the other person is saying, "No, there's no problem," I think there comes a point where, again, sometimes happily ever after means happily ever after separately.

Jay Shetty 1:38:25 Mm.

James Sexton 1:38:26 And I, I'm a believer in divorce. I, I'm not j- I mean, of course I'm, as a divorce lawyer, I have a self-interest in saying that. But even in my own life, I, I divorced 20 years ago, and my ex-wife is very dear to me. She's a, she's still a, a dear friend. Her, she's been remarried for 15 years, very successfully, much longer than we were ever married, to a, to a wonderful guy. I just got to spend a lot of time with them at my son's wedding, and we had a lot of laughs and a lot of shared time and space together, and this, these two boys who we both love so much. And, um, I think that was an example of... You know, when, when I, when my ex-wife and I, 20 years ago, when we decided we were going to divorce, we had a very difficult and honest conversation at the kitchen table, and our kids were, I think, f- three and four, uh, three and five at the time, and, uh, we loved them more than anything. And I remember she said to me after we'd had this very teary, very difficult conversation, we were both really honest with each other about how deeply unfulfilled we felt and how much we loved each other, but that there's a lot of people that you love that you might not be well married to. And I remember she said to me, "If sheer power of will could make two people love each other, we would love each other forever." I remember thinking it was so honest and so true that sometimes love, just the feeling of love, is not enough to sustain this very particular kind of connection two people are going to have. Like, my sons thankfully grew up in, in an environment of tremendous love and a deep connection to both their mom and I, but they laughingly now say as adults, like, "How were you and mom ever married?" Like, "You, you have nothing in common. You don't like any of the same things." Like, and I laugh and I say to them, "Yeah, we're, we're incredibly different." Like, in the best relationships, it's like the Venn diagram. There's the you, the me, and the we, and there's some overlap, you know? And us, it just wasn't, you know? But we were, you know, we met when we were 18, you know? She was beautiful. You know, I was cool, and I had a motorcycle. Like, I don't know. Like, those are the things that matter at that age. You know, we're making this decision, like, I often say to people, you know, "If I said to you, you can have any car you want when you were 18, what car would you have had?"

Jay Shetty 1:41:01 Yeah, it would've been some sports car.

James Sexton 1:41:02 Okay.

Jay Shetty 1:41:02 Something quite light, yeah.

James Sexton 1:41:03 Okay. If then I told you, "Oh, that's the only car you're gonna have for the rest of your life," do you think 18-year-old you would think, "Well, wait, it's not gonna fit a car seat"?

Jay Shetty 1:41:16 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:41:16 "And when I'm 80, how am I gonna get in and out of it?" So that's what we're doing when we marry. Like, we're this young-- Like, I, I wish I was 25 again, 'cause I still knew everything. Like, I knew everything when I was 25, if you ask me. Like, now I'm humble enough, like, life will humble you enough that you go, "Oh yeah, like, the list of stuff I don't know gets bigger-

Jay Shetty 1:41:43 Yeah

James Sexton 1:41:44 ... not smaller."

Jay Shetty 1:41:45 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:41:45 And my humility grows.

Jay Shetty 1:41:47 Yes. Yes.

James Sexton 1:41:48 And I think-

Jay Shetty 1:41:50 So true

James Sexton 1:41:50 ... we're, we're, we, we marry at an age, rightfully so, where we, you know, we wanna have kids maybe. We wanna, you know, our biological clocks are ticking. We're so gassed up on hormones and love and sex and everything, so, so we're making this gigantic life decision at an age where we still think we know everything, but our prefrontal cortex isn't even necessarily fully developed. So what do you think is gonna happen there? You know, we have to be willing to say, you know, "Hey, maybe, maybe we made the wrong decision. Maybe we made the wrong choices." Again, I'm a fan of doing everything you can. It's just like hospice. Do what you can.

Jay Shetty 1:42:31 Mm.

James Sexton 1:42:31 Do what you can to sustain your life and have joy and quality of life. You can have a lot of impairments happen to your body and still have a tremendous quality of life, a wonderful quality of life. But when you've reached the point where now we've tipped to the direction where my quality of life, my prognosis is so bad that the inevitable is going to happen sooner rather than later, that's when we should start talking about, okay, what now?

Jay Shetty 1:42:57 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:42:57 And that's what I think this just is.

Jay Shetty 1:42:59 Yeah. You talking about your, your former partner and your two sons, and obviously being at the wedding, like, it, it's so fresh for you, and I was thinking about it because I think a lot of people go through this. You probably hear it a million times. And I've had so many friends talk about this, but is staying together for the kids actually hurting the kids?

James Sexton 1:43:18 Well, this is a, a really important question because I think a lot of people stay in challenging relationships for the benefit of their children.

Jay Shetty 1:43:30 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:43:30 And I don't, I don't think that's a bad thing. I think when you have children with someoneA, a lot of difficulty comes with children. We don't like to talk about that in polite society, but children are antagonistic to marriage.

Jay Shetty 1:43:45 Mm.

James Sexton 1:43:45 We talked about it earlier in this conversation, like they take attention away from each other, and that, by the way, that's one of the great things about having children is it's not all about you anymore.

Jay Shetty 1:43:54 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:43:54 And that's good, you know? But it's also challenging emotionally, and, and it- we feel guilty to say it out loud. You know? Again, one of the great innovations I think of our present time is that for a time there was a book called The Mask of Motherhood where before the internet, you know, women were constantly, "How's the baby?" "Oh, it's great. Everything's great. It's great. Everything's great. It's great." And meanwhile they're like, "Oh my God," like, "I'm s- this is horrible. I'm exhausted. I love this baby, but I want to kill it sometimes because it won't stop crying, and I feel out of control." Like, and now I think we have a society where I think there's a tremendous amount of like, you can say that, and other women will go, "Yeah, that's okay. I felt like that, too. We're supposed to feel like that. It's okay. Doesn't mean you don't love your kid." That's beautiful. That's wonderful. But I think we've got to a place where, you know, some of those hard things to talk about we don't talk about in the context of relationship.

Jay Shetty 1:44:52 Mm. Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:44:52 And I think there is value in having bonds that tie us together like children, but the skill set of a spouse and the skill set of a parent are different.

Jay Shetty 1:45:06 Absolutely.

James Sexton 1:45:07 You know?

Jay Shetty 1:45:07 Absolutely.

James Sexton 1:45:07 I, I, I would like to say I was not a great husband. I, I, I'm not ... Like, I have a number of deficiencies. You know? Like I'm impatient. I'm, you know ... Some of the things that would make me a, make a good husband I don't possess. I'm an excellent ex-husband. I'm reliable. I'm communicative. I'm, you know, I'm dependable. Um, I'm very child focused. I'm a really good father. You know? I'm a really good father. I, I, I ... So I think sometimes people come into my office and they say like, "Oh, he was a terrible husband, and I don't want him to have any time with the kids," hard- and then you kind of go, "Well, wait a minute. Is he a bad father?" Because even though some of the skills might overlap, you know, it, it, like patience would be good in both of those roles, they're very different roles. So I think identifying that is important. I think what the long-term behavioral research on children and divorce says, and there's a great book called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce that was the longest term study ever done of children of divorce, and what it essentially found is that although divorce and conflict, parental conflict correlate, right? Makes sense. People that have a lot of conflict often divorce. That the parental conflict is what's most damaging to children.

Jay Shetty 1:46:34 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:46:34 Loyalty binds and witnessing parental conflict is harmful to children. It stands to reason that many children of divorce have grown up in part or in long in a home filled with conflict because people with lots of conflict often get divorced. But it's not the c- it's not the divorce. It's the conflict that is, and the parental conflict that's so harmful. So I would certainly say if you are struggling in your relationship and you have children, you have a tremendous incentive to figure out, is there a way for us to, to reconcile this relationship temporarily or long-term in a way that doesn't betray our core identities or ideals?

Jay Shetty 1:47:20 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:47:22 But if you are in a relationship where you are, your children are surrounded by conflict in the ecosystem of your home, I don't think you're doing them any favors gutting it out and staying together. Like, 'cause I, again, I, I don't think the goal of marriage should be, "We did it. We did it. We, we made it to death. We were miserable for the last 30 years, but we did it." Like it's, that seems strange to me.

Jay Shetty 1:47:55 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:47:56 I think the goal should be marriag- marriage satisfaction.

Jay Shetty 1:47:58 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:47:59 And are we ... I would hope that at the end of your life you are still married to your wife and that what she would say of you is, "He made my life better."

Jay Shetty 1:48:16 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:48:17 "He helped me figure out who I am. He helped me become the most authentic version of myself." Like, what more noble goal could there be to life than to find someone and love them and help them become who they are?

Jay Shetty 1:48:36 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:48:36 You know? And help them, like, help you become who you are-

Jay Shetty 1:48:42 Mm

James Sexton 1:48:42 ... and who you're meant to be.

Jay Shetty 1:48:43 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:48:44 So if that's the goal, if the marriage isn't facilitating that result-

Jay Shetty 1:48:50 Yeah

James Sexton 1:48:50 ... okay, do what you can to fix it. But if it can't be fixed, at some point, I think letting go is hard.

Jay Shetty 1:48:57 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:48:57 But I think it's right.

Jay Shetty 1:48:58 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:48:59 And there's also what you said, there's a nuance there because if it's the conflict that affects the kids-

James Sexton 1:49:05 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:49:05 ... the conflict can exist when you're together and when you're divorced.

James Sexton 1:49:08 Of course.

Jay Shetty 1:49:08 So if you're still having-

James Sexton 1:49:10 Of course

Jay Shetty 1:49:10 ... that distance but you're still talking about the other person in an unhealthy way-

James Sexton 1:49:14 Oh

Jay Shetty 1:49:14 ... and there's constantly games with the kids, like, so-

James Sexton 1:49:16 I've seen every permutation of that.

Jay Shetty 1:49:18 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:49:18 I mean, and that's the stuff that the way people unintentionally harm their children with permission of their own conscience.

Jay Shetty 1:49:28 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:49:29 You know? And they, they genuinely believe they're, like, helping their children.

Jay Shetty 1:49:33 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:49:34 You know? But, but that's the danger. Like, divorce is, is, is so challenging because, you know, there's, there's become an increasing amount of attention paid in the legal system now to parental estrangement.And, and parental estrangement can sometimes be rooted in something genuine. If someone's a, a, a bad parent, children eventually don't want to be around- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... that person. But sometimes parental estrangement is caused by alienation, which is the active interference in the parent-child relationship and the natural development of that bond, and sometimes it's what's called negative gatekeeping. Mm-hmm. Which is where you could have been helpful- Mm-hmm ... in helping your co-parent stay bonded to your child, that instead you chose to do nothing. Yeah. So one is an active interference, and the other is a passive, you know? And very often what you see in, in, in contested ugly custody cases, which I do a lot of, you see some combination of those things. Mm-hmm. So, like, dad steps on the rake. He does something stupid. He, he yells at the child the way he shouldn't have. He punishes them in a way that he shouldn't have. And mom could have helped the kid navigate that better. But instead, 'cause she doesn't like dad, she weaponizes it. Mm-hmm. And she has the permission of her own conscience, because she goes, "I'm protecting my child." But it's so subtle. Like, that's the danger- Yeah, it certainly is ... is, you know, like, when... It takes a rare kind of crazy person to say, "Your dad is a bad person." Mm-hmm. "And you shouldn't love him." Mm-hmm. But it takes nothing to do, "Hello. Here, it's your dad." Yeah. "I just said Dad's a bad person. I don't have to say it out loud." You know? It's the difference between, "Oh, how was, how was your weekend with Dad? What'd you guys do?" "Oh, we went to the park, and we, you know, met his new friend, Cindy." "Oh yeah? Oh, that's nice. What'd you guys- Y- What, what'd you have to eat?" "Oh, we got pizza," da-da da. "Oh, that's great. What was Cindy like?" "Oh, she's really nice, you know, she's, uh, got pretty blonde hair and she, uh, likes to ride bicycles." "Oh, that's n- You like to ride bicycles, too, so that's nice. I, I'm not surprised that Dad likes her, 'cause Dad likes bicycles, too, you know? All right, go upstairs. You know, you got school tomorrow morning. Let's figure out what we're gonna do." And, "I'm so glad you're back. I b- I missed you so much when you were with Dad. Are you okay? Yeah, you okay? Did everything go okay? Are you all right? Yeah. What'd you do? You went to, you went to the park? You went to the... Why, wh- It's been so cold out. Why'd you go to the... Oh, you went... Did y- just you and Dad went? Cindy who? Who's Cindy?" [laughs] "Who's Cin- Cindy, Dad's friend? Does... Do you mean Dad's girlfriend? Does Dad have a girlfriend now, and he's not telling anyone that he has a girlfriend? You know, d- uh, you know... " Well, you know what? Go upstairs and, and, uh, you know, get whatever you do." Like- Yeah ... I just told this kid so much. And the part of the judicial system, 'cause as a lawyer, it doesn't matter what I know, it matters what I can prove. So you know what the judicial system's solution to that is? We'll assign a lawyer to the kid, and the lawyer is gonna sit down with the kid and say, "Does Mom ever say bad things about Dad?" And guess what? The answer's no. Yeah. "I didn't say... What did she say that was bad about Dad?" Wow. "She didn't say anything bad about Dad. She asked, 'What'd you have to eat?' I missed you. It's nice that you're home." "Who's Cindy?" Yeah. Like, "Who's Cindy? I was asking a question. I- He, he brought her, this person around our child. I don't know who they are, you know? So I just wanted to ask my... Oh, oh, who is she?" But meanwhile, no, you sent a whole message to that kid. Mm. And by the way, be a grown-up. Like, love your kid more than you hate your ex. Mm. Because all you have to do in that situation is do what you do as an adult, which is pretend. Like, I remember my son Noah, who's now 28, when he just got married. I remember him when he was about four years old having pneumonia, and he had, like, 104 fever. And he was burning up. Mm. And he was in my lap. And I remember like it was yesterday. I remember the doctor said to us, 'cause we called him panicked, the doctor said, "Okay, if it goes to 105, you gotta get him to the emergency room." And I remember him, like, so, like, it's a visceral memory, so sick. And I remember being like, "It's okay. It's okay, buddy. It's okay. You're okay. You're okay. It's okay. You're okay. No, you're fine. You're j- you're just sick right now. It's gonna be okay. Don't worry about it. It's okay. Everything's gonna be fine." 'Cause that's what you do. Like, that's what you do. He did not need me to do what I'm even recalling this memory 24 years later, and he's fine. He's on his honeymoon. He's fine. Like, but I, I'm literally ready to cry thinking about it because I remember being so terrified. I'd never been that scared in my life. I loved this thing more than I'd ever loved anything, and I thought, "Oh my God, he's gonna die." But what he needed me to do in that moment is be strong and lie. Yeah. He needed that from me. And so do that. Mm. Just do that. I don't care if you're upset that Dad's dating Cindy, and that Dad really stepped on the rake and should have told you, "Hey, I'm gonna introduce our kid to this girl I've been seeing." And you guys should have had a conversation where you say, like, "Hey, is this someone you're serious about before you take them around our kid? And what are you gonna tell the kid? And give me a little info on this so we can figure out how to, like, send the right message together," you know? That's not the place to have that with the kid. You have to have that with your co-parent. But again, we don't teach people, we don't teach people how to do relationships. Yeah. And we don't teach them how to do when relationships end. And with 50% or more of marriages ending in divorce, we could do better at teaching- Absolutely ... people how to be good ex-husbands and good ex-wives, how to be good co-parents after divorce. But nobody wants to buy that book. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody wants to buy that book, 'cause they all think they're great at it. Yeah. They all think they're great at it. And I have some clients that are abysmally bad at it, and a lot of what I have to do is give them credit where credit's not due.I have to say to them like, "Right, but of course you would never do X, Y, and Z, 'cause I know you, and I know you're a good person. I know you love your kids." You know? So I have to play little mind games with them and say to them all the time, like, you know, they'll say, "Well, I'm gonna introduce, you know, the kids to my girlfriend this weekend. You know, do I have to tell her?" I'll go, "Do you have to? No, you don't have to, but of course you should. Of course you will."

Jay Shetty 1:56:10 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:56:10 Like, you're... "Wouldn't you wanna know if she was gonna..." Yeah, and, and obviously this person you're introducing them to, you're, you know, I'm sure you're not doing that with someone that you, like, met on Tinder and you're, you know, gonna know for two weeks. Like, this, I'm sure this is a serious relationship. And they're like, "Well, yeah, it's sorta serious." I'm like, "Because if it's not, you know, you might-

Jay Shetty 1:56:27 Yeah

James Sexton 1:56:27 ... obviously might wanna wait a little bit, you know?" [laughs] And, like, I have to be in-

Jay Shetty 1:56:30 Yeah, yeah, yeah

James Sexton 1:56:30 ... the position where I'm educating them-

Jay Shetty 1:56:32 Yeah

James Sexton 1:56:32 ... as to what to do.

Jay Shetty 1:56:33 Without educating them. Yeah, you've gotta kinda be that.

James Sexton 1:56:35 Right. Right, 'cause I'm their advocate.

Jay Shetty 1:56:36 Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

James Sexton 1:56:37 I'm their advocate. But the, the truth of my profession, and the best of us that do this, 'cause I can say it about my colleagues, although I've never been their client, in the courtroom at the negotiating table, I am a vociferous advocate. I'm a weapon, you know? I'll advocate for whatever crazy position is necessary in that situation. Behind closed doors, I'm this.

Jay Shetty 1:56:56 Yeah, yeah, yeah [laughs] .

James Sexton 1:56:56 Like, I'm, I'm very blunt with my clients.

Jay Shetty 1:56:59 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:56:59 I'm very candid with them. Because they, they don't need me to tell them what they wanna hear.

Jay Shetty 1:57:04 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:57:04 They need me to tell them what they need to hear.

Jay Shetty 1:57:06 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:57:06 And so I'm very, very honest with my clients behind closed doors. I will tell them-

Jay Shetty 1:57:11 Yeah

James Sexton 1:57:11 ... you're going through a process where you could spend $50,000 arguing over a $60,000 bank account.

Jay Shetty 1:57:16 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:57:17 And if you win, you didn't win $60,000, you won $10,000.

Jay Shetty 1:57:22 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:57:22 And if you lose, you lost $110,000.

Jay Shetty 1:57:26 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:57:26 Like, so divorce is like that.

Jay Shetty 1:57:29 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:57:29 I mean, I had a case, a multi-million dollar marital estate, probably worth $30, $40 million. The settlement fell apart because of a toaster oven, a $48 toaster oven. 'Cause it was the one issue they couldn't agree on as division of personal property.

Jay Shetty 1:57:46 Oh, God.

James Sexton 1:57:47 And I just remember being in the room and thinking, "I could, on my phone right now with Prime delivery, have every person in this room get one of this toaster oven tomorrow, and they're gonna blow this thing up over this." 'Cause it wasn't about the toaster oven.

Jay Shetty 1:58:02 And they did blow it up?

James Sexton 1:58:02 They did. They blew it up. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:58:03 Oh.

James Sexton 1:58:04 Yeah. And listen, it was great for the lawyers. Great for the lawyers. We get paid to fight. Like, when your lawyer is telling you, "The settlement's good. Let's take the settlement," I'm, I'm acting against my interests. I get paid for the fight. Like, you don't... And I manipulate people's emotional state for a living. Like, I make a judge feel sympathetic to my client, antagonistic to the other side. I make the other side feel scared or vulnerable. I make my client feel safe. Like, I manipulate people's emotional state for a living. That's the job. You don't think I couldn't use that to gas my client up and feel terrified so that they need me to do more work? Of course I could. Of course I could. I could turn that right on, and I could, "Well, you know, listen, it's all fine now, but what if? Forces are aligning against you." I could scare the crap out of these people and get them to give me hundreds of thousands of dollars. The way you build a reputation, and this is a business where you live and die by your reputation, is by not doing that.

Jay Shetty 1:58:57 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 1:58:57 By being really honest with your clients, by being really blunt with your clients, and that's what I try every single day to wake up and do. And, and all of the best of my colleagues, I suspect that that's what they do.

Jay Shetty 1:59:07 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's,

Jay Shetty 1:59:09 it's painful though, because it all comes down back to what we've been talking about this whole time, which is this personal growth and ego of not-

James Sexton 1:59:18 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:59:18 ... in, in every, whether it's you being mad at your partner when you're together, whether it's you being on the honeymoon or dating, whether it's you thinking about divorce, it's always your ego and your control and your desire for power-

James Sexton 1:59:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:59:33 ... that's constantly getting in the way, even to the toaster oven-

James Sexton 1:59:36 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:59:36 ... which is that final straw of, "No, I wanna have the final say, and-

James Sexton 1:59:40 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:59:40 ... they should feel the wrath and not me." And it's, it's that growth of, like, when are those insecurities not gonna be mine anymore, and when are those... You know, 'cause hopefully I'm getting divorced so that I can move on from that.

James Sexton 1:59:51 It's the-

Jay Shetty 1:59:51 But if I'm still upset that the person's with Cindy, like, that's just-

James Sexton 1:59:55 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:59:55 ... pulling me. I'm still controlled by that person.

James Sexton 1:59:57 And by the way, it's, it's perfectly okay to feel jealous. It's perfectly-

Jay Shetty 2:00:00 100%

James Sexton 2:00:00 ... okay to feel... But, but I totally agree. I, I think all of these problems, whether they're in the context of divorce or in the context of navigating a functional relationship that's having challenges, or employer-employee relationships, you're right, it's all ego-based things. Neil Postman, who was one of my mentors at NYU, a beautiful, prolific writer about culture, he used to say that technology offers us real solutions to imaginary problems and imaginary solutions to real problems.

Jay Shetty 2:00:30 Mm-hmm. Mm.

James Sexton 2:00:32 And I think marriage is an imaginary solution to a real problem. The real problem is we're alone.

Jay Shetty 2:00:40 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 2:00:41 We feel terribly alone. This world is easier to navigate with someone. You can't learn everything you need to know about yourself from yourself.

Jay Shetty 2:00:52 Absolutely.

James Sexton 2:00:52 You need someone who sees your blind spots. There's nothing more wonderful than feeling loved, other than perhaps giving love and having someone feel your love, who you love. So these are all real problems.

Jay Shetty 2:01:09 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 2:01:10 But the idea that I'm going to get a piece of jewelry on my finger, and I've got that locked down now, and I'm going to not feel this, like, that's... Look, I, I represent some of the wealthiest people in the United States. I am in the f- finance capital arguably of the world. Some of my clients are worth billions of dollars. My wealthiest client is probably worth about $8 billion. He is as bad at this as anyone. You cannot buy your way into it. Like, you can't. You know? There's, there's no amount of money that you can spend to fix disconnection between you and your partner. There's noBirkin bag, you can buy them. There's nothing you can do-

Jay Shetty 2:01:55 Yeah

James Sexton 2:01:56 ... that will replace some of these fundamental things. And the struggles like money, you know, neither you nor I grew up with money. And I think when you grow up without money, I don't know if this was your experience, it certainly was mine, money came to symbolize everything I didn't have. Like if, if I have money, I'll feel safe. If I have money, I'll feel valuable and worthy. If I have money, I'll feel secure. And then you get money, and you just have money.

Jay Shetty 2:02:29 Mm.

James Sexton 2:02:30 Like you don't ... You still feel unsafe, you still feel ... Are some things easier? Of course, of course. Money's important, and it does make some things easier, and it does give some modicum of security. But from the fundamental challenges of life, like these real challenges. So those are real problems. I think marriage, again, asking the question, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution, is the key.

Jay Shetty 2:02:51 Mm.

Jay Shetty 2:02:52 Who files for divorce more, men or women?

James Sexton 2:02:55 Women by a significant majority. It's over 70% of divorces are incepted by women.

Jay Shetty 2:03:00 Wow.

James Sexton 2:03:00 Unfortunately, though, that's a statistic that gets unfairly weaponized quite often.

Jay Shetty 2:03:05 How should we process it? What does it tell us?

James Sexton 2:03:07 So the popular antagonism in the, what do you want to call it, the manosphere or in, in a m-

Jay Shetty 2:03:16 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 2:03:16 ... in misogynist spaces, whatever you might want to call it, in, in, in, in spaces that are there to defend men's perspective, is that women are somehow coming into the casino of marriage, amassing a lot of winnings, and then cashing out, and that's why the number of women in, is in the 70% in the commencement of divorce actions. What I have found in my own practice is that, that although that is certainly the case sometimes, that more often than not, it is that, um, men more often than women go out for milk and never come back, or just come home one day and say, "I'm leaving."

Jay Shetty 2:04:00 Mm.

James Sexton 2:04:01 Part of that has to do with children. I think we know you can be a Bella Abzug feminist if you'd like to be, and I think you would concede that if you met me, a man, and said, "Jim, tell me about yourself," and I said, "Well, I'm divorced. I'm a lawyer. I see my children every other weekend and once a week for dinner. They live with their mom," this would in almost no way shape your opinion of me as a parent. Whereas if I was a woman and I said, "I'm divorced. The children live with their father, and I see them every other weekend and once a week for dinner," there's some part of you that would go-

Jay Shetty 2:04:42 Yeah

James Sexton 2:04:42 ... "What is wrong with her?"

Jay Shetty 2:04:43 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 2:04:43 Drug issue? Or like, is there like, you know, substance abuse or some mental health? Like what? So why? Because the overwhelming majority still of primary care of children is on women.

Jay Shetty 2:04:55 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 2:04:56 So I think that the reason why women are more often the plaintiff in the divorce action is that we have created a society where for a man to walk away, say, "Bye, I'm out," it's easier. And so when that happens, and it happens often, I have women who come into my office and say, "What do I do?"

Jay Shetty 2:05:20 Mm.

James Sexton 2:05:21 "He left."

Jay Shetty 2:05:21 Mm. He's already checked out.

James Sexton 2:05:22 "The, the mortgage hasn't been paid. I, I don't know, like, how am I gonna do X, Y, and Z?" And I say, "Okay, we have to file a divorce action." And they go, "Wait, no. I don't want to file a divorce action. I'm not the one who wants a divorce. He is. I want him to come back and for everything to be okay." "Okay. But he's not coming back, and everything's not okay. But what you need is the mortgage to be paid and an order that gives you temporary child support. And the only way I can do that is to get a judge assigned, and the only way I can get a judge assigned is to file a divorce action."

Jay Shetty 2:05:54 Mm.

James Sexton 2:05:55 So then what happens is we file the divorce action, and then nine times out of 10, the guy who went out for milk and never came back, "I can't believe you filed for divorce. She... Well, she's the one who filed for divorce," and you kind of go, "Okay. No. Like, you killed it. She buried it."

Jay Shetty 2:06:15 Mm.

James Sexton 2:06:15 "I get it. But like, you killed it. Like, what are you talking about?" You know? And by the way, I'm not suggesting you should have stayed. There's lots of good reasons why a marriage might end, but just leaving and not confronting, again, it's the same problem, right? Is, is it surprising that in a marriage where people were afraid to have difficult conversations, that they might essentially do the equivalent of ghosting? Like, "I'm just gonna leave. I'm just out," you know? So that's where that statistic I think is, is a, it's abused.

Jay Shetty 2:06:46 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:06:47 Because if only, again, if only, if only. Like I, I in some ways wish we lived in a world like Solzhenitsyn said, where, where if only there were just evil people, and we could just segregate them from the rest of us and live our lives in peace. It's not how it works. The line of good and evil runs right through the human heart.

Jay Shetty 2:07:05 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:07:05 And so there is not a simple answer-

Jay Shetty 2:07:08 Yeah

James Sexton 2:07:09 ... that, oh, yes, women are just gold diggers, and they're filing for divorce because they're cashing their chips out. I have seen many, many women commence divorce actions where they're taking a gigantic economic hit. I have a client who recently refiled for divorce knowing that under the prenup what she's gonna get, she's no longer going to have private jets.

Jay Shetty 2:07:27 Mm.

James Sexton 2:07:27 She is no lo- She is going to take a significant cut in her lifestyle. But she's like, "Yeah, but I, I need to be free of this relationship," you know? And, and so to suggest that, that, that statistic proves this other thing, I think is very self-interested by-

Jay Shetty 2:07:43 Yeah

James Sexton 2:07:43 ... the people that are positing that theory.

Jay Shetty 2:07:46 Yeah. Who suffers more from divorce, men or women?

James Sexton 2:07:50 [sighs] I think the world is cruel to both in different ways.

Jay Shetty 2:07:56 Mm.

James Sexton 2:07:57 I think there is sometimes a tremendous economic burden put on men that is well beyond their capacity. I've seen child support awards and spousal maintenance or alimony awards that are, are so gigantic that it, it just literally cripples a man, um, especially when someone's lost their job, and then the courts are very quick sometimes to say, "Well, your earning capacity is commensurate with your last employment, so you'll find another job." So the world can be cruel to men in that way. And also, I think there... even though we abolished what used to be called the maternal presumption, which was a presumption, or used to be called the tender years doctrine, which is the presumption that women are better custodial parents to children than men, we still live in the world, and there's a tremendous amount of bias, and there are a lot of really good dads and a lot of really awful moms, and vice versa.

Jay Shetty 2:08:54 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:08:55 But to suggest that because someone gave birth to a child, like under your skin is under your sovereignty, to assume that that person is a better caregiver to a child is absolutely ridiculous. So, um, men, men are, are terribly hurt by the divorce system and the divorce industrial complex in those ways. They don't have the time with their children that they probably would benefit from and that the children would benefit from, and it's very easy to weaponize those things. Women, um, the divorce system is sometimes very expensive to get the relief that you're entitled to. Um, the barriers to entry and to getting that award is very challenging. And I think post-divorce, my observation has been a divorced man, his prospects for future relationships are better.

Jay Shetty 2:09:52 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 2:09:53 I think when... And again, I, I, this is not a, you know, an indictment of... I, I... Believe me, I'm sure that there are exceptions to this like there are to everything. But by and large, women, in my observation of many, many, many, many clients, [chuckles] divorced men have a m- much bigger menu of options. Like there's... You know, a guy gets divorced in his early 40s and he's got a couple of kids, he can usually get women in their 20s and their 30s because they'll look at it and go, "Oh, instant family, just add me. Like, great. Like, I'll be a step-parent and, you know, I'll get involved in this. Maybe we'll have our own kids too, but even if we don't, I'll get to have something quasi-parental and..." And by the way, there will also be divorced women who he, you know, "Hey, our life, lives are similar. We have co-parents. We have these things. Let's get together and let's get married and Brady Bunch it," you know?

Jay Shetty 2:10:47 [chuckles]

James Sexton 2:10:48 Women, I, I think, get a, a shorter end of the stick on that. I think that there are a lot of men who see a woman who's divorced, even a young, beautiful, intelligent, articulate woman who's divorced through no fault of her own, perhaps. Maybe she had a, a, made a bad choice and, and this is not, was not a good person for her or for her children. And a lot of men will look at it and go, "Eh."

Jay Shetty 2:11:09 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:11:10 "She's got baggage. I don't, I don't wanna deal with that, and I, I don't want what comes with that." Again, many men step up in that situation.

Jay Shetty 2:11:17 Yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 2:11:17 And I think I've had the amazing experience of watching some men step up, where I've had these young female clients and they get divorced, and they're just convinced their life is over. They're like, "I'm 34 years old, I got two kids, and I'm divorced," you know? And then some guy, very often, like unexpected, like a young guy with no kids who's never been married, steps in and is like a hero. And, and, you know, a couple years later, I'm going to their wedding, you know? And, and, uh, a few of them, I have one couple in particular I'm thinking of, uh, she's had the greatest post-divorce life and greatest post-divorce marriage I've ever seen, and now they have a baby together, the two of them, and this guy really stepped in to be a step-parent for, for, uh, her kids i- in a beautiful way. And, uh, you know, it's amazing. But, but I think as a general rule, my observation has been it's, it's... Divorce is, is hard on men and hard on women in just different ways.

Jay Shetty 2:12:12 Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, James, it has been such a joy talking to you today, and I feel like I'm learning so much and just... What, what's really incredible talking to you about it is that you, you really do have this rare ability to go, to go from being really logical and rational about something to then being really emotional [chuckles] and emotive about it, and it's-

James Sexton 2:12:33 Try, try being this person

Jay Shetty 2:12:33 ... Yeah. And it's really beautiful to watch.

James Sexton 2:12:35 Oh.

Jay Shetty 2:12:36 I, I, I really, uh, I really appreciate how you can oscillate between the two quite comfortably and gracefully.

James Sexton 2:12:40 Thanks. Thanks.

Jay Shetty 2:12:41 And it's, it's really powerful. Uh, just, just taking it all in and, again, the reminders are powerful yet simple, and tho- that's, that's a wonderful thing because-

James Sexton 2:12:53 Yeah

Jay Shetty 2:12:53 ... it's that with which we're stumbling.

James Sexton 2:12:55 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:12:56 And those are the same things we're all stumbling over, and so-

James Sexton 2:12:59 Yeah. And it's, it's a wonderful commonality for us.

Jay Shetty 2:13:02 Yeah. Yeah, it's a wonderful-

James Sexton 2:13:03 It's really part of our humanity.

Jay Shetty 2:13:04 It's great to know that that's what it is, that it-

James Sexton 2:13:06 Yeah

Jay Shetty 2:13:06 ... it wasn't some big thing that you didn't become-

James Sexton 2:13:09 Yeah

Jay Shetty 2:13:09 ... or that you didn't-

James Sexton 2:13:10 Yeah

Jay Shetty 2:13:10 ... become successful or that you didn't, you know, something that was so far away and that it was right there.

James Sexton 2:13:15 Right.

Jay Shetty 2:13:15 And-

James Sexton 2:13:16 And the thing, the piece, the piece we're all looking for may not be so far away.

Jay Shetty 2:13:22 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:13:23 You know? The questions we need to ask may not be so complicated.

Jay Shetty 2:13:27 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:13:27 And the things we need to do to sustain or repair our relationships, they, they may not be that inaccessible. It may be right inside of us, you know?

Jay Shetty 2:13:38 Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:13:39 We, we end every interview with the final five.

James Sexton 2:13:41 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 2:13:42 These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.

James Sexton 2:13:45 Okay.

Jay Shetty 2:13:45 However, I'll probably break, break my own rule knowing how good our conversation's been. And so J-

James Sexton 2:13:50 I'm not known for my brevity.

Jay Shetty 2:13:52 Yeah. [laughs] Uh, James Sexton, these are your final five. So the first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? And of course it can be intertwined to love. So what's the best love advice you've ever heard or received or given?

James Sexton 2:14:06 The best advice I've heard in general, and it applies to love as, as much as it applies to anything else, is the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing.

Jay Shetty 2:14:17 Mm.

James Sexton 2:14:18 That, that any time you're confronted with, with a choice, that the harder thing is usually the right thing. It's easier to sleep in than to exercise, but it might be the right thing to exercise. It's, it's easier to just hold your tongue and not share with your partner something a- that needs to be shared, but the right thing to do is to do the hard thing. So the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing.

Jay Shetty 2:14:43 That's a great answer. I love that. Uh, never had it on the show. Question number two: what is the worst love advice you've ever heard or received?

James Sexton 2:14:51 Happy wife, happy life.

Jay Shetty 2:14:53 Why is that such bad-

James Sexton 2:14:53 People say it all the time, and whoever created that, I wanna just throttle them. Um, I have an amendment to it, and that is it should not be happy wife, happy life. 'Cause what's meant by that is just, just, just shut your mouth and just do what she tells you, and that's, you know... And I, I, I just think it's terrible advice. I think it's a way to build estrangement between two people. It's a way to disconnect. I think it could be amended to happy spouse, happy house.

Jay Shetty 2:15:25 Mm.

James Sexton 2:15:26 I think that's true. I think that if, if you can help your partner find joy, that your joy will be more accessible, and their desire to help you find joy will be more accessible to them, and it creates a positive cycle. So I would say ha- I would say happy wife, happy life is, is the worst advice. The other, the runner-up would be follow your heart.

Jay Shetty 2:15:47 [laughs]

James Sexton 2:15:48 Follow your heart. That's one of those things people say-

Jay Shetty 2:15:50 Yeah

James Sexton 2:15:50 ... like it is what it is.

Jay Shetty 2:15:51 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:15:51 It's like a thing you say when you don't really know what to say.

Jay Shetty 2:15:54 [laughs]

James Sexton 2:15:55 Because I, I genuinely, [laughs] you know... Like, I don't, I don't know that you should listen to your brain, 'cause your brain is lying to you all the time. It's good to listen to your body, 'cause your body doesn't lie to you.

Jay Shetty 2:16:10 Mm.

James Sexton 2:16:10 You know? Doesn't have the agenda that your brain has.

Jay Shetty 2:16:13 Mm.

James Sexton 2:16:13 But your heart, what you're really saying is listen to what I think, what my mind is telling me my heart is saying-

Jay Shetty 2:16:23 Yeah

James Sexton 2:16:23 ... and that's, that's dangerous.

Jay Shetty 2:16:25 Yeah. Yeah. I like both of them. Great picks. There's something you've really talked about today which was a resounding kind of principle was this idea of it's so much raising above just pleasure and happiness and comfort, and this idea of being with someone who wants you to become the most authentic version of you and vice versa, and that's such a different thing that you think you're signing up for when you get married.

James Sexton 2:16:54 Totally.

Jay Shetty 2:16:55 'Cause most people are just signing up for, "You make me happy."

James Sexton 2:16:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:16:57 "You make me feel good."

James Sexton 2:16:59 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:16:59 And those are a part of that, and those are important.

James Sexton 2:17:01 Of course. Of course.

Jay Shetty 2:17:01 And no one's saying those things are not critical, but signing up to say, "Well, the long term, that's gotta evolve into I'm gonna help you become-

James Sexton 2:17:11 Yeah

Jay Shetty 2:17:12 ... the most authentic version of you, and you're gonna help me become," and that's a massive evolution from, "You make me happy right now."

James Sexton 2:17:18 Because I, I, I think it says something of our humanity, because my personal belief, my personal experience has led me to believe as a human being... You know, I was raised very Catholic, very religious, and I've since left the faith, you know, but I still believe in God, and I still like the concepts. And I don't believe in a devil. You know, I don't believe that there's this nefarious, evil force. But if there was a devil, I think his principal function would be to tell us what I think many of us secretly believe, and that is that we are so awful that God couldn't possibly love us.

Jay Shetty 2:18:08 Mm.

James Sexton 2:18:09 And I think there is some part of us as human that sees all the ugliness in us, that's in all of us, all the selfishness, all the greed, all the lust, all the envy, all of it, all of it, all of our humanity, that piece of our humanity, and is convinced and doesn't wanna say out loud that if someone knew us, they couldn't possibly love us.

Jay Shetty 2:18:37 Mm.

James Sexton 2:18:38 Like, that's, I think, our deepest fear.

Jay Shetty 2:18:41 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 2:18:41 Our deepest fear is that if you knew me, you, you wouldn't love me anymore.

Jay Shetty 2:18:47 Mm.

James Sexton 2:18:49 And so the opposite is true, which is when, when you feel truly known, your good parts, your bad parts, and loved-

Jay Shetty 2:18:59 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 2:18:59 ... that is the greatest feeling.

Jay Shetty 2:19:01 Mm.

James Sexton 2:19:02 Like, that is the, the greatest experience-

Jay Shetty 2:19:05 For sure

James Sexton 2:19:05 ... a person can have.

Jay Shetty 2:19:06 For sure.

James Sexton 2:19:06 And by the way, we have it very often with our children.

Jay Shetty 2:19:09 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 2:19:10 We're like, we don't care. Like, no, no, they make mistakes, but it's okay. I love them anyway. Oh, no, they're bad at this, but it doesn't matter. I love them anyway. Like, I see them, warts and all. I see all the bad and all the good and the whole amalgam, and I love them anyway. Like, I love them with all my heart. So to me, I think that's, that's the core of it, is we're just afraid that if someone knew us, they wouldn't love us, so we add all these other things on. Well, how can I make this person feel pleasure?

Jay Shetty 2:19:37 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:19:38 And how can I... And anytime they don't serve my pleasure, well, now they're failing my needs, and we create all these ways to self-sabotage relationships, when in fact, what it really is is we don't really love ourselves. We don't think we're worthy of love.

Jay Shetty 2:19:51 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:19:52 And I, I think, again, I'm not really Christian, but I think the most radical message that Jesus said in the Gospels was essentially that we are worthy of love.

Jay Shetty 2:20:06 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 2:20:08 Not that w- we should love others-

Jay Shetty 2:20:10 Yeah, yeah

James Sexton 2:20:10 ... but that, that we should love ourselves, that we should, we should believe that we are worthy of love, God's love, the love of each other. And I, I, I genuinely think if we gave each other the grace, like-

Jay Shetty 2:20:22 Grace

James Sexton 2:20:22 ... gave ourselves the grace we give each other, you know? Like, 'cause if you described to me all of the horrible things about you right now, like if the mics were off and you said to me, "You know, Jim, I'm, I know that we've met and we've now had a lovely conversation, but if you got to the core of who I am, I have all of these horrible things," and you told me about all these selfish things, like people do all day long in my office, they tell me all the horrible things they've done. And I was to say, "Okay, that means you're human."

Jay Shetty 2:20:49 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

James Sexton 2:20:50 Like, that means you're human. That doesn't mean you're a awful, terrible person.

Jay Shetty 2:20:53 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:20:53 You screwed up, you did some things that maybe you shouldn't have done. You should learn from that. You should figure out how to not do that. You see what it's led you to, but, like, it's okay. Like, I don't think you're a bad person. Like, that's the loveliest thing in the world, and that's what I think love can be-

Jay Shetty 2:21:08 Yeah

James Sexton 2:21:08 ... at its best, and marriage can be at its best, is that creation of that authentic self.

Jay Shetty 2:21:14 Yeah. Well said.

James Sexton 2:21:15 I'm doing great with the one-word answer thing.

Jay Shetty 2:21:16 Well said. No, no, no, I wanted you to. I was really happy about that. Uh, question number three: what's the question people never ask before marriage but absolutely should?

James Sexton 2:21:27 I mean, I'll, I'll go to my earlier question-

Jay Shetty 2:21:28 Yeah

James Sexton 2:21:28 ... which is what is the problem to which marriage is a solution?

Jay Shetty 2:21:31 For you specifically.

James Sexton 2:21:32 Yeah. Why am I getting married?

Jay Shetty 2:21:34 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:21:35 And why, and why is this other person getting married? And are those goals aligned? I think that's a, a, a very worthwhile question. Yeah, I think that would be the best question to ask, I think, is that what, what is the problem I am trying to solve-

Jay Shetty 2:21:49 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 2:21:51 ... by getting married, and what is the problem that this person is trying to solve, and are those goals aligned?

Jay Shetty 2:21:58 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 2:21:59 I also think it's worthwhile to ask, at the risk of being unromantic, although it's fairly obvious I'm a romantic at heart, um, I think there's also some really practical questions people should ask. Like, are you a night person or a morning person? Are you okay with dishes in the sink? 'Cause I'm not, at all, ever. You know what I mean? Like, are you a neat freak, or are you somebody that's kind of, you know, do you leave your socks everywhere? Can you tolerate someone who leaves their socks everywhere? I do tend to leave my socks everywhere. So I think, you know, having some honest conversations about you're not just g- like, 'cause your wife's your wife. She's also your roommate.

Jay Shetty 2:22:34 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 2:22:34 She's also your business partner. She's also your vacation companion. She's a, like, she's got a whole bunch of job des- like, if that was a job description for your companies-

Jay Shetty 2:22:43 Yeah

James Sexton 2:22:43 ... it's a long one, you know? So have some practical conversations about, like, the nuts and bolts of being married and the nuts and bolts of having a life together.

Jay Shetty 2:22:52 Yeah. Great answer. Uh, question number four: what's a lie that couples tell themselves at the start of a relationship that ultimately breaks them?

James Sexton 2:23:03 Two opposite lies. That this will change things, and that nothing will change-

Jay Shetty 2:23:11 Hmm

James Sexton 2:23:12 ... in different measure. So sometimes people marry, and they go, "Well, he wasn't the most fidelitous boyfriend, but now that we're married, he'll be committed." Or, you know, "He drank a bit too much when we were together, but now," you know. "And she was a bit of a compulsive spender, but once we marry, that'll rein in, and we'll settle into it." So thinking that this person's going to change, and that the act of marrying someone will change fundamentally the relationship. And also thinking, "I'm marrying this person how they are now, how I am now, and it will never change."

Jay Shetty 2:23:45 [laughs]

James Sexton 2:23:46 "We will always be what we are to each other. It will always feel the way it currently feels. Um, we will never change that much." I think that's ridiculous. We, we change a tremendous amount. With each passing decade of my life, I look back and go, "Oh my gosh, what changes in me?" Not just my hair and my back hurting. Like, what are the changes? There's so much change as to how I approach things. So I think the two lies are that nothing will change, and that things will change.

Jay Shetty 2:24:15 Hmm. Great answer. Love that. Uh, fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show: if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

James Sexton 2:24:27 Shortly after your 18th birthday, you would have to spend six months or so volunteering for hospice.

Jay Shetty 2:24:34 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 2:24:36 I think we shield our society from death, and I think it, it infects the way we look at life. It morphs in unhealthy ways the way we view death, and it, it causes us to focus on a lot of the wrong things. A divorce is a death of sorts. It's not surprising to me that I went from hospice to, to divorce work, because it's all about endings. Everything is ending all the time. And so I think if at the age of 18 everyone had to do mandatory service where they spent time working with the terminally ill, I think it would change fundamentally the way that our society was structured. I think that you would... I think so much of our world is designed to take your attention away from the fact that you're definitely going to die.

Jay Shetty 2:25:33 Hmm.

James Sexton 2:25:34 Because if you thought about the fact that you're definitely going to die, you wouldn't really care so much about what everybody else is selling.

Jay Shetty 2:25:43 Hmm.

James Sexton 2:25:43 You would be much more focused on what really matters in life, and you wouldn't chase so many phantoms. So I would say that we would, we would do society a tremendous service to do that. And answer number two to that would be, you know, there'd be, like, a mandatory waiting period to get married.

Jay Shetty 2:26:01 [laughs]

James Sexton 2:26:01 Like, it should not be something that you can do just with 50 bucks by a guy who's dressed like Elvis when you're in Vegas, hopped up on hormones and alcohol. Like, it should be, there should be like, you know, with guns, there's, like, a waiting period.

Jay Shetty 2:26:13 [laughs]

James Sexton 2:26:14 You know? You, you get a driver's license-

Jay Shetty 2:26:16 Yeah

James Sexton 2:26:16 ... you gotta, like, take a written test. You gotta-

Jay Shetty 2:26:18 Practical test

James Sexton 2:26:18 ... you know, practice. You get, like, a learner's permit, and then there's restrictions on how much you're allowed to drive. Like, married man, it's nothing. You just, "Here it is. Knock yourselves out, kids. Figure it out," you know? I, I think there would be some, some form of premarital education. Maybe you have to talk to people that have been divorced. You have to talk to people that are divorce lawyers. You have to talk to some people that have been successfully married, that volunteer for the gig. And, uh, and then you can decide if you're gonna get married or not.

Jay Shetty 2:26:46 That's a great answer. I love it. James Sexton. The book's called How to Stay in Love. If you don't already follow James across social media, make sure you subscribe on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, everywhere. And, uh, James, honestly, I, I loved this. I hope you'll come back on. I feel like-

James Sexton 2:27:00 100%.

Jay Shetty 2:27:01 There's so much more we can-

James Sexton 2:27:02 100%. We couldn't-

Jay Shetty 2:27:02 ... explore. There's so much more we can go into, but I'm so glad, uh-

James Sexton 2:27:05 I suspected it would go this way.

Jay Shetty 2:27:07 Yeah, yeah, it's three hours. [laughs]

James Sexton 2:27:08 Is it really?

Jay Shetty 2:27:09 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

James Sexton 2:27:09 You know, I could always... There's very few conversations-

Jay Shetty 2:27:12 [laughs]

James Sexton 2:27:13 ... that I can say that about, but it's really lovely because there's nothing more lovely than when I absolutely lose track of time in a conversation and it feels like it was a half an hour and it-

Jay Shetty 2:27:23 Yeah, yeah

James Sexton 2:27:23 ... and I go, "How long was that?"

Jay Shetty 2:27:24 Yeah.

James Sexton 2:27:24 So this is one of those, so of course I would-

Jay Shetty 2:27:26 Love it

James Sexton 2:27:26 ... very much welcome the chance to sit down again, and I'm really glad we made this connection.

Jay Shetty 2:27:30 Yeah. Thank you, James.

James Sexton 2:27:31 Yeah, you're very welcome.

Jay Shetty 2:27:32 That was awesome. You're awesome. That was amazing.

James Sexton 2:27:33 Thanks, man.

Jay Shetty 2:27:34 You are, you're incredible, man.

James Sexton 2:27:34 Thanks, Matt.

Jay Shetty 2:27:35 If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Dr. Gabor Maté on understanding your trauma and how to heal emotional wounds to start moving on from the past.

Speaker 2:27:47 Everything in nature grows only where it's vulnerable. So a, a tree doesn't grow where it's hard and thick, does it? It grows where it's soft and green and vulnerable