Jay Shetty Podcast#1 Divorce Lawyer: After 1000 Cases, Here’s the REAL Reason Marriages Fail (It’s NOT What You Think)
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140 min read · 28,102 words- 0:00 – 0:29
Intro
- JSJay Shetty
[instrumental music] Is it true that 50%
- 0:29 – 2:39
The Real Reasons Marriages Fall Apart
- JSJay Shetty
of marriages end in divorce?
- JSJames Sexton
It's actually a little over 50%. Yeah, it is, um, it's a frightening statistic when you hear it because I, I've often said it, it, it actually creates the legal supposition that marriage is a negligent activity. You know, the, in, in the law we have this idea of negligence and recklessness. So negligence is a failure to perceive a substantial, uh, but, but high re- uh, likelihood, uh, of harm, and recklessness is a conscious disregard for a substantial and unjustifiable risk of harm. And you could make the argument that if something 50% or more of the time ends in pain and heartbreak, that it's actually reckless to do it. And, you know, I, I'm always vexed by the thought that how do we gauge the success of something? And so divorce is clearly a failure of marriage to sustain. But then you have to think, if over 50% of marriages end in divorce, how many people are unhappy with the decision they made to marry-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... but stay together-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... for the children or because they don't want to give away half their belongings? If you're conservative and say it's another 10%, maybe 20%, now we're talking about something that has a fail rate of 70% or so. That, to me, is just shocking.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
It's, it's stunning. But the statistic that people don't talk about is that 86% of people who divorce are remarried within five years of their divorce, which to me actually speaks to the importance of marriage. That, that someone who's gone through this process, it's ended in a manner different than what they had hoped for, right? And they still-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... okay, let's try it again, you know? And what does that say about our need for that connection, how important it is to us as humans? So yeah, but, but un- the unfortunate news is that that is a very high fail rate by
- 2:39 – 4:40
Why Do We Still Get Married?
- JSJames Sexton
any regard.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. And I think most things, if you heard something had that fail rate, you'd probably not even try. So if some-
- JSJames Sexton
Even remotely
- JSJay Shetty
... even, even with anything, right? So if someone said, "Hey, this investment has a, you know, 50% chance of failing or going wrong," you'd probably not consider it.
- JSJames Sexton
Of course.
- JSJay Shetty
Why do people still get married?
- JSJames Sexton
I think probably for a number of reasons. I mean, one is it, it's assumed for many years that it's the right thing to do.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Which is in and of itself strange because the, the supposition that one should marry in the face of those statistics is shocking, and even the fact that it's considered indelicate. Like if someone said to me, "Oh, Jim, I'm getting married," the proper response is, "Oh, congratulations. That's wonderful." But it would be perfectly reasonable to say, "Really? Why?"
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
"Why? Like, why, why are you doing that? Like, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution? What, what is the reason that this particular permutation of a personal, religious, and/or legal relationship-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... is important to you-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... or to your soon-to-be spouse?" But it's con- it would be considered terribly rude. I would never in, in polite society say to someone, "Why are you getting married?" Because-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
... it, it just feels like such a pessimistic view of things.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
But, but it isn't pessimistic if you look at the numbers.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And I actually think it's an interesting thought exercise for people to have. You know, why am I getting married? What is the problem to which marriage is a solution? We look at any other technology in our life, you know, this mic stand, you know, the glass of water, and I can say, "Okay, the problem to which this is a solution is it would be awkward for me to hold a microphone in my hand, and, and we need to amplify our voices in some fashion." So you can answer the question pretty easily, but marriage, e- even asking the question's considered rude.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. It's,
- 4:40 – 8:54
The Truth About the Wedding Industry
- JSJay Shetty
that's, I've never thought about it like that, and I'm actually thinking about, as you're saying, it's fascinating that we've confused the emphasis on a wedding versus a marriage, too.
- JSJames Sexton
Right. Right.
- JSJay Shetty
So you spend more time planning your wedding-
- JSJames Sexton
So much
- JSJay Shetty
... than you do preparing for a marriage.
- JSJames Sexton
Well, I, I jokingly talk about the wedding industrial complex, you know? That it's, it's a, you know, billions of dollars business, and of course, like, what about it wouldn't be appealing? I mean, weddings are, I love them.
- JSJay Shetty
They're beautiful. I do too.
- JSJames Sexton
They're, they're, I get-
- JSJay Shetty
I love them too
- JSJames Sexton
... I get misty-eyed at weddings.
- JSJay Shetty
So do I. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Nothing about my job has made me the slightest bit less excited about a wedding. The idea of two people coming together and standing before family and friends and saying, "I found my person."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
"Out of eight billion, I found my person."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? It, how could you not get sentimental about that?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
It's, it's such a beautiful thing and ... But, you know, saying I do isn't saying I can. Like at best, it's saying I'll try.
- JSJay Shetty
Oof.
- JSJames Sexton
And, and we just don't, we don't say that out loud, and I think we might be poorer for it. I think it would be better if we had a more honest and realistic view of marriage because there's nothing more fun than getting married.But being married-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... is much more challenging.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And we spend so much time in the excitement and the sort of pheromones of, you know, we're gonna have this cake, and we're gonna have this. Which by the way, of course, it's so much fun. Like any, any event with cake I'll go to.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
But it, it, it really is something that we would do well to take the being married part-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... from the beginning more seriously.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. I've, I've officiated a few weddings, and, uh, there's never been a time when I haven't not wanted to cry.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- 8:54 – 13:16
What Divorce Really Looks Like
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah. And at the same time, it's, it's that paradox, isn't it? Because I think I got married nine years ago.
- JSJames Sexton
Mm.
- JSJay Shetty
And still with my wife, and we've been together for 12 years.
- JSJames Sexton
Lovely.
- JSJay Shetty
And now I look back, and I think to myself, "I didn't know."
- JSJames Sexton
No.
- JSJay Shetty
I didn't have a clue-
- JSJames Sexton
How could you?
- JSJay Shetty
... what I was saying.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Like I said, I love my wife that day and that I-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... believed that-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... you know, we were meant for each other and everything, and I had no clue.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Like the last nine years have been so much more illuminating about a commitment I made.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And it's almost like I made a commitment with far less information-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... far less insight-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... far less growth.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And so what I wanted to dive into with you, and there's so many things I wanna unpack from everything you've just said, but I wanna help our audience understand from your perspective and from your insight and from your experience, like we've just talked about the most beautiful moment, and you, hearing you describe your son's vows and that moment, it's... I, there can't be anyone who's listening right now who isn't just thinking, "Oh my gosh, that's beautiful. I love that."
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And then you're someone who's seen countless couples-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... break apart.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah, I mean, my-
- 13:16 – 15:44
The Hard Conversations Bring You Closer
- JSJay Shetty
a truth in, in what I'm hearing from you and even, even sensing and feeling from the way you're sharing what you're sharing, and it's, it's so interesting because if someone's scared before they get married or before they fall in love, we usually tell them that's a bad thing.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
We usually be like, "Oh, no, no, you should be sure. You should know," right? Like, [laughs] "If you don't know..." And it's almost like, well, no, how, how could you? Like it's-
- JSJames Sexton
Possibly
- JSJay Shetty
... it's, it's putting yourself, you know, it's-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... trying to get someone to hold your heart and-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... hold this fragile, vulnerable, deepest part of yourself-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... and not knowing if they'll be able to hold it properly for-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. Yeah, and to, and to-
- JSJay Shetty
... decades and decades and decades.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, I'm 52 years into my journey of being a human being, and I'm, I'd like to think I'm starting to become myself.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. Yeah, I can get that.
- JSJames Sexton
And starting to understand myself much better.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And that's after, you know, a long time of reflection and therapy and all those things. So it's so hard to know yourself-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... to then know another person, you know? And then to, to be in such an intimate tie with this person and, and again, in a way that requires a tremendous amount, if you're gonna do it right, of vulnerability, candor, bravery. Just the ability to, to, to say, you know... I mean, it really is almost discipline, like the trading what you want now for what you want most.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? And what you want most is deep, long-term connection with this other person. But sometimes what you want now is just like, "Let's get through the day."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
"Let's not have an argument or a, a difficult conversation." But sometimes, you know, just like we have to go to the gym, just like we, y- you have to lean in to these uncomfortable things.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And that's a lot of what my writing is about, is about the idea of leaning into moderately uncomfortable conversations for the good of the long-term relationship because, you know, it's, it's so easy to want to have your day-to-day go smooth in your relationship that you start telling each other what the other person wants to hear and not, you know, sharing what's really going on in your head and in your heart. But I think what, if what we really want is long-term, deep connection with another person, w- we can't do that.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
We have to be disciplined. We have to say, "Okay, I'm, I'm going to be radically candid with this person
- 15:44 – 22:48
What is the True Cause of Divorce?
- JSJames Sexton
about what's going on."
- JSJay Shetty
I think a lot of what we've touched on so far is this really root emotion-
- JSJames Sexton
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... of like what's really happening-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... beneath the surface.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And I wonder not what are the top three reasons people get divorced that they say in the courtroom-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... or that they may say the first time they meet you or to their therapist.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
What are the three root, top three root reasons-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... that you have discovered that-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... lead to someone getting divorced?
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah, the most common question anyone who finds out what I do for a living ask me other than, "Oh my God, you must have some great stories."
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
And, and usually they're very pleased because I'll tell them one of the more outrageous ones like, "Oh, and then he cut the car in half with a chainsaw and said, 'Okay, you pick which half you want.'" You know, things that... True story.
- JSJay Shetty
And that, oh, that's crazy.
- JSJames Sexton
That's a true story. Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Okay, you'll have to tell-
- JSJames Sexton
Oh, yeah, I have some, I have some real bangers.
- JSJay Shetty
Yay. You have to tell us some new ones later.
- JSJames Sexton
Um, yeah, you know, I have a lot of fun at a cocktail party [laughs] 'cause I have a lot of those. But really what, what people are, you know, asking, I think they want me to say, "Oh, uh, cheating."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Or, "Financial impropriety," because that gives us a sense of control.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
"Okay, I can monitor my client," uh, my, my, uh, see, client comes out of me. "But I can monitor my spouse or partner's whereabouts using my phone, and I can, uh, you know, be vigilant about, you know, like keeping an eye on what's going on with them and other people." And it gives us a sense of control, right?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- 22:48 – 28:52
The Power of Small Gestures in Love
- JSJay Shetty
I, I, I like those two, and I, and I appreciate those answers so much more than the surface answers of-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... and we will talk about cheating, and we will talk about-
- JSJames Sexton
Sure
- JSJay Shetty
... money at some point. But I much prefer the disconnection and the lack of being seen as points of contention because I think you're spot on because when you didn't wash the dishes, someone felt like you didn't see them.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
When you forgot to pick up something on the way back from home-
- JSJames Sexton
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... they felt you were disconnected.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
When you sat on the couch both watching the same show but never looking at each other-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... you felt unseen. Like that-
- JSJames Sexton
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... that's what you felt. That's-
- JSJames Sexton
But see-
- JSJay Shetty
That's what was going on
- JSJames Sexton
... and that phenomenon, that reality, I think actually can be flipped in the other direction to our benefit.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Because, you know, you've been married n- I don't wanna put you on the spot, but you've been-
- JSJay Shetty
No, go for it
- JSJames Sexton
... married nine years. I'm willing to bet that if your wife was here and I said to her, "When do you feel most loved by Jay? Like, tell me some moments. Tell me some things he does that makes you feel loved."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
I bet there's some answers you would know, like, "He listens to me when he cares for our family member," whatever.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
But I bet there'd be some that you'd go, "Really? That?"
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... "That?"
- 28:52 – 32:09
Simple Ways to Appreciate Your Partner
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. And, and I think it's so important that there's recognition, gratitude, and-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... reciprocity for it.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Because I think often when someone's doing something for a long time, it's like the couch.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
You stop thanking them. You stop noticing it.
- JSJames Sexton
Ah.
- JSJay Shetty
You stop honoring it, and that, that part is equally as important because-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... that person at one point will feel underappreciated.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. And these are such-
- JSJay Shetty
You know? They're simple
- JSJames Sexton
... these are such simple things.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, it's so easy.
- JSJay Shetty
But it is that. It is that.
- JSJames Sexton
It is so easy.
- JSJay Shetty
It's not the birthday or the wedding anniversary or the, uh-
- JSJames Sexton
No, it... And, and that's what we put so much on-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... is these giant gestures and... But the truth is, like if you texted your wife right now and just said, "I married the prettiest girl in the world."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like who, what does that take? What does it take?
- JSJay Shetty
My wife would just send me a picture of her making a funny face.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Well, it, you got a good one.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She would, yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, like that's lovely. Like we... But, but I, I bet it wouldn't be something that's uncommon for you to say. I, I think if you-
- 32:09 – 38:41
How We Repeat Our Parents’ Patterns
- JSJay Shetty
much of this is based on at least so much of what we grew up on. Like for me, for example, my mom, incredible woman, breadwinner of the family, cooked a fresh breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day, dropped us to school, helped us with our homework, everything. Everything that's good about me-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... is to do with my mom.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And but when your mom does it, you assume that's just what life is.
- JSJames Sexton
Sure.
- JSJay Shetty
And so when I married my wife, and my wife also loves cooking, and it's part of her love language, but to me, getting a hot meal was normality.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And so even though my wife showed it as a way of showing love because I had it from my mom as like a base level expectation-
- JSJames Sexton
Oh, you're the fish in the water
- JSJay Shetty
... you just not no-
- JSJames Sexton
Just don't see it
- JSJay Shetty
... yeah, you just don't see it.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And it took me a moment when I would actually watch my wife cook, and then not only did my appreciation for my wife change, my appreciation for my mother changed.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Realizing what it took-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... to do that for all those years. But it's almost like-
- JSJames Sexton
And what a gift that is
- JSJay Shetty
... what a gift.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, what a gift that-
- JSJay Shetty
And you can dismiss that
- JSJames Sexton
... loving your, loving your wife helped you love your mother in a different way.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, that, that's what I mean when I say, like, this transformative power of love is that, you know, I, I remember when my sons were first born, my admiration for my then wife was so, like, because she wasn't just this woman I had dated in college or this woman I had married. She was a, but you're like a mom.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? Like, and you love this little organism the same amount that I do, and like... So you do, like, have so many occasions-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... to deepen your connection to this other person, which deepens your connection to, to these other people, you know, in your life. And but I, yeah, I think that, that we, we certainly... And you know, I, I have to say, when you were talking about, you know, growing up in a home where mom, you know, made these lovely meals, and then to be married to a woman who does the same, and so to you, this is sort of, you know, normal.
- 38:41 – 42:55
Navigating Love After Having a Child
- JSJay Shetty
talking about the masculinity piece, I was reading that the two times men are most likely to cheat are when their partner's pregnant-
- JSJames Sexton
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... and when the first child is born or when a-
- JSJames Sexton
Mm
- JSJay Shetty
... child is young.
- JSJames Sexton
Makes sense to me.
- JSJay Shetty
And-
- JSJames Sexton
That's consistent with my observation too.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
I, I have something of a PhD in infidelity, having been a divorce lawyer so long, and I've seen it from both sides.
- JSJay Shetty
And I'd love to talk about why, but I think the f-
- JSJames Sexton
I have a theory
- JSJay Shetty
... w- yeah, the fascinating part to me is that I spoke to a lot of men as well, friends who, who haven't cheated, but they talked about how when they had their first child, just how hard it was to be second priority-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... to their partner.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And when we talk about we can't teach a class, to me it sounds predictable and something you can prepare for-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... because no wonder you're gonna be second priority-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... because there's this helpless little baby-
- JSJames Sexton
Uh-huh
- JSJay Shetty
... that demands attention and needs it.
- JSJames Sexton
And you actually want that baby-
- JSJay Shetty
You want to be first
- JSJames Sexton
... to have that priority.
- JSJay Shetty
100%, 'cause it needs it.
- JSJames Sexton
So then you start feeling guilty about why do I want this thing?
- JSJay Shetty
Correct. Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And why do I feel that way? But, but see, I, you know, again, I think it's a perfectly understandable feeling.
- 42:55 – 46:17
How to Reconnect with What Brought You Together
- JSJames Sexton
that.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. It's almost like we only know how to share our emotions through a negative lens.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
I.e., we're not doing this enough.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
We used to do this.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
Where's this gone?
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
And all that language is-
- JSJames Sexton
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... looking at the gap, the scarcity-
- JSJames Sexton
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... the missed opportunity.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
Whereas what you just said was, "Hey, I'd love to connect again," or, "Hey, I'd love to, you know-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
" ... make some time for this again," or-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. "Remember when we da, da, da?"
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, "Wasn't that so... God, I was thinking about it the other day, you know, that we went for that walk and how nice it was," and da, da, da.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. It's a positive thing to move towards.
- JSJames Sexton
And right, and now we're there again. You know, it's... I- I've always... One of my favorite phenomenon is if, you know, we've all been to like a dinner where there's a couple of couples.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
And one of them you're just like, "Man, there was some kind of fight on the way here."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Like, they just got that... There's this energy between them of like-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... you know, terse, you know. And you're like, "I hope they're not like this all the time, but it might have just been on the ride over." And if... I found as an experiment is if you say to that couple, "So how did the two of you meet?"
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- 46:17 – 50:10
Why Does Asking For Love Feel Needy?
- JSJay Shetty
It's such a part of that parsing of an argument as you talk about it and part of the ability to initiate. I feel like at the root of it, there's a struggle that we have with our ego where it feels like we don't wanna be the one to look like the beggar or look like the needy one-
- JSJames Sexton
I get that
- JSJay Shetty
... or look like the weak one, and so there's this ego-
- JSJames Sexton
The vulnerability
- JSJay Shetty
... the vulnerability.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. It's scary. I, I have to tell you-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... I struggle with that in every relationship.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
I, I... My longtime assistant, Theresa, who's been with me a long time, and she's a wonderful, wonderful assistant, and, uh, she's really the brains of, of my office. You know, she keeps the machine running. And I, I actually have times where it's hard for me to say to her, 'cause I'm moving so fast between things, like, "Could you he- heat up my lunch for me?" Now she has offered this a million times. Like, she's happy to be of assistance to me in any way. Like, she's a wonderful resource in that regard. And she's a, by nature, that kind of person.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, I see it in her relationship with her husband and her kids. Like, she just, nothing makes her happier than feeding her family or feeding the people around her. And my... Everyone who calls my office is like, "Oh my God, Theresa's the best." Like, they all love her, um, because there's a warmth. And, and I still have a hard time. Even with such permission, I still have a hard time being vulnerable enough to say, "I need help."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Because that's what I'm saying. Like, it's a minor thing I'm asking for help for, but I'm saying I need help, and that's hard for me to do. It's hard for anyone to do, to say, "I need help," because there's a vulnerability. There's this fear that what if the person goes, "Well, I don't have the time to do that right now." And then that pain, like that's such a child wound, you know, that feeling of like not wanting something and not getting it, and asking for it, being brave enough to ask for it, and not getting it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
That I, I certainly understand that pain.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, and it's one of those ones that you almost have to be willing to go to with the right partner.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
I feel like with the right partner, with the right person, you almost are willing to go there more often-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... because you know they're not judging it, like with someone like Theresa in the-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... assisting capacity.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. But I think you-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... you fix that-By this step of trying.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes.
- JSJames Sexton
Because every time you are vulnerable in that way and the person shows up-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... that becomes a, a less terrifying and a deeper intimacy, I think.
- 50:10 – 57:55
Designing the Ideal Contract for Modern Love
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. If, if you were designing a contract for marriage-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... for modern love, what would you put in it?
- JSJames Sexton
Oh, wow. I'm a lawyer, so we tend to be verbose in our contracts.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
But I would, I would put specific behaviors. I would put, I would put a mandatory weekly check-in.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And I would even create a structure for it. I would say that every week I, I wanna share with you and I want you to share with me something I did this week that made you feel loved.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And I, then I want you to share with me something that made you feel less loved or less seen or where I got it wrong. Like, I want you to tell me where I got it wrong bravely. And then maybe praise sandwich. Tell me something I can do for you this week that would make you feel loved, that you think might make you feel loved or that might be... Because I wanna be good at this job.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, I wanna be good at this job, and it's a job.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, loving another person is, it's a, it's a, it's a career.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, it's a vocation. And I, I think you have to be brave enough to talk about those things, and I, so I would put that in a contract.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. I like that.
- JSJames Sexton
I, I think that's not a hard thing to do.
- JSJay Shetty
I like that. I like that.
- JSJames Sexton
Doesn't cost anything, and I think that it, it wouldn't take a lot of time necessarily, and it would stave off a tremendous amount of things. I would also commit to or pledge to, to hear the things that we say to each other as coming from a place of love and connection. You know, even when we say something the other person might not wanna hear, that it's coming from a desire to protect the bond.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
So I would say that is a very worthwhile and worthy pursuit to say, "Look, we've, we've, we've decided we want this particular permutation of relationship." You know, love is, is loaned. It's not permanently gifted.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And so if we wanna protect and preserve it, I think saying to each other that we, we have to have this unflinching ability to kind of hit send now. Like, say to the person like, "Hey, you know, this, this thing's little and I never want it to get big." But then you also have to be willing to hear that as coming from a place not of you're doing it wrong-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... but from a place of I want this to stay-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... wonderful. This is important to me, you know? And I think if, if those provisions could be complied with, I think that would be very helpful to people. I also think, again, you know, in romantic relationships and, and, you know, this is I think part of the reason why cheating becomes such an issue, you know, sex is the glue. Like, it's the glue. Like, sex is incredibly important to people. Like, the... I mean, it's the difference between having a roommate and having a spouse. You know? Like, there's a, there's a romantic element to it. There's a sexual element to it. There's a physical, not even purely sexual, there's a physical element to it. I can't tell you how many men tell me, "Yeah, we stopped having sex," or, "We st- started having it very infrequently." Some women, but mostly men. And I can't tell you how many women have said to me in the context of divorce that, "Yeah, like the only time he ever touched me was sex. Like, it was just prelude to sex. The only time he ever kissed me was a prelude to s-" I mean, come on. When you first start dating, you could make out for hours. Like, literally there's just nothing more lovely than just the kissing this person. When's the last time people really made out with their spouse, you know? Or just like held their hand or just touched the nearness of them? Good relationships, there's a lot of that.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
There's a lot of this physical connection.
- 57:55 – 1:01:13
Understanding the Connection Between Desire and Disconnection
- JSJames Sexton
invoking manner.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
So you don't say, "Why don't you ever hold my hand anymore?" Like, the last thing I want to do is hold your hand, you say.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Whereas if you just grab my hand and just go like, "I just want to hold your hand for a minute."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, who wouldn't go, "Oh, okay." Like, yeah, that's nice, you know?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. And that's why you say that cheating's actually a symptom, not a-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... a root.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
You don't believe that it's the reason marriages end, and you don't believe it's the root of the issue.
- JSJames Sexton
No.
- JSJay Shetty
It's actually because there's a disconnection or a-
- JSJames Sexton
Yes, I, I'm, I have a very high degree of confidence in that. I think I spend a lot of time with the cheated and the cheated on, you know, or the cheater and the cheated on. I, I spend a lot of time with every permutation of infidelity, and I've talked to people in very candid ways about their affairs, men and women. And there's a, there's a, an emptiness and a sadness in people that have gone that route. Sometimes it's surprising because they will say, "Yeah, this had nothing to do with my wife. Like, this had to do with me, like, and how I felt. Like, it wasn't her. She was love- I've always loved her. I still love her. I just needed this," you know? And, uh, and they didn't really see, like, in that moment, they weren't thinking about their commitment. They thought, "Well, this has nothing to do with that. This is just like a human need, like I'm hungry, so I'm gonna eat." And again, these are powerful forces in us, you know? The desire for sex, the desire for food, the desire for s- Like, these are basic core human things, you know? So I think infidelity is, is something that is a function of disconnection and a function of how fraught the conversation is with your partner about desire and how it change. I mean, how much do we really understand our own desires, you know? It's, it's-- there's something mysterious about it, you know? Like, why do you like dark hair or blonde hair? Why do you like... Like, why do any of us have these weird preferences, you know? Like, but they're there, you know? And maybe they're rooted in, you know, Freud is right, they're rooted in some, you know, very basic childhood things or, you know, maybe they're purely chemical, you know, depends on who you ask. But, but they're a mystery to us. I mean, I, I certainly know it's a mystery to me. Like, I don't... Like, why are breasts so appealing? Like, they don't really do anything-
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
... unless you're an infant, you know? Like, they're just-- and yet they just make me happy, you know? Like, I don't know. There's something in me that's like, ooh, you know, like, that finds those appealing. So what is it?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
I have no idea, you know? What is it that when I see a, a, a man who has, you know, stubble or a nice beard on his face, I don't feel any desire towards that, and yet-Many of my female friends or gay friends are like, "Oh, I love that. It's so sexy."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, what, what is that? Well, it's just in us.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
It's just part of us, you know? So I, I think that's what makes it hard to articulate-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... you know, to our partner when, when it's not being met. Maybe we don't even realize, 'cause we're not looking at ourselves close enough.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. That's
- 1:01:13 – 1:07:07
Commitment vs. Passion
- JSJay Shetty
why I think the marriage contract that you just laid out-
- JSJames Sexton
Right
- JSJay Shetty
... is so important.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
Because it's so... And, and also a big part of it is a lack of understanding of men and women. Like when you said a few moments ago, you were just like, you know, people have desires. We have a desire to eat. Like, you know, it's the same thing. It's like as a man, that makes a lot of sense-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... in our brain.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And the compartmentalization also makes a lot of sense. Like-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... like I've always said to, when I'm talking to my, uh, friends who are girls who are having trouble in dating, and I'll be like, "Yeah, he sees this as this, and he sees this as that."
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
Like they're not connected, but-
- JSJames Sexton
Uh-huh
- JSJay Shetty
... I'm a man. That, that makes sense. And it's almost like we have such a limited understanding, and I'm not saying it's only gender based.
- JSJames Sexton
Of course.
- JSJay Shetty
But there's such a limited understanding-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... of how the human brain and mind work because-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... someone's saying, "Well, no, I put the commitment above my desire."
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
Because the commitment's more important. And the other person goes, "Well, yeah, I just let my desire slip above the commitment."
- JSJames Sexton
Right. But you can have both.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, I genuinely believe you can have the desire and the commitment, like both can be fulfilled, you know?
- JSJay Shetty
With each other, you mean. Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
I think so.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Because I-
- 1:07:07 – 1:11:47
How to Begin the Conversations You’ve Been Avoiding
- JSJay Shetty
I find that, don't you hear a lot, I'm sure you hear this a lot as well, where like after a while he just didn't wanna communicate.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Or like they just didn't wanna communicate.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Where like what you're suggesting is still part of a healthy relationship dynamic where you can initiate something-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... and even if it's not met immediately-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... there's a certain point at which-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... there's a conversation.
- JSJames Sexton
But it wasn't on the first date.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, it wasn't on the first date. Like, and see that, see, that's the thing that I think makes marriage such an interesting entry point for a conversation about love.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
'Cause I don't know that the two correlate.
- JSJay Shetty
Agreed, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And I certainly don't think there's causation.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-mm.
- JSJames Sexton
I don't think marriage makes you really love each other more deeply-
- JSJay Shetty
No
- JSJames Sexton
... or more likely to be fidelitous.
- JSJay Shetty
No.
- JSJames Sexton
I don't think it does that at all.
- JSJay Shetty
No.
- JSJames Sexton
It may have the opposite effect in some way.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
But what it does give us is an entry point into, we were at some point so enamored with each other that we said, "Out of the eight billion options, I'm picking you." I mean, that is a gigantic... Like, I live in New York City. There's a lot of restaurants. Sometimes I am paralyzed by the number of choices. When I go, "Okay, I'm gonna order something," there's so many options all within three blocks of my apartment. Eight billion options, and you chose this person, and they chose you. So at some point there is this abundance of goodwill, this abundance of connection. And when I wrote the book, it really wasn't meant for people who were in crisis. It was really meant for people who were not.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
It was meant to be a wedding gift.
- 1:11:47 – 1:16:05
The Lies We Tell Ourselves in Love
- JSJay Shetty
'Cause you wanna get someone on side.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And then you re- Yeah, I have similar in... I mean, I coach people and couples and work with people, and like you said, people, people lie to their kind of therapist, coaches in that lane.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And that's for sure, 'cause-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... someone will come to me and said they had their heart broken, and then as time goes on, they'll send me emails that the other person sent them, and-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... the emails actually seem really-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... thoughtful and comprehensive and, like, very, uh, emotionally intelligent and articulate.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And you're like, "Wait a minute. Like-"
- JSJames Sexton
What, what happened here?
- JSJay Shetty
"... you told me that this person was the devil."
- JSJames Sexton
Uh, yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
"And now I'm reading their emails, 'cause you had to share them with me because of some context."
- JSJames Sexton
That's why I said I think the most dangerous lies are the ones you tell yourself.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know?
- JSJay Shetty
And you need them for survival.
- JSJames Sexton
And you don't even know, sometimes you don't even know that you're lying.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, you just, you know, you're just so caught in your view of the thing.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And we hold onto that so tight, you know?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, 'cause it... Again, I feel like if, if, if we can acknowledge that we're a mystery to ourself, you know, that, that, that feels powerless and frightening. I mean, so much of what we do wrong we do for a feeling of control-
- JSJay Shetty
Yes
- JSJames Sexton
... that we don't actually have.
- 1:16:05 – 1:22:26
Should You Get a Prenup?
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
Should, should everyone get a prenup?
- JSJames Sexton
Yes. Well-
- JSJay Shetty
You-
- JSJames Sexton
I'll actually take a-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... different approach to that. Everyone has a prenup. You have a prenup. Everyone has a prenup.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
It's either one that's written by the government or it's one that's written by you and the person who you allege you love more than the other eight billion other options.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
But every, 'cause what is a prenup? A prenup is a contract where two people agree to specific rules that will apply to their marriage if it ends in something other than death.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
It's a weird way to parse it, but it's completely 100% accurate. So all marriages end, death or divorce. You hope yours ends in death. That's a weird thing to say, but it is. You hope it ends in death, till death do us part. But if it doesn't, there's a rule set that will apply. Who should write that rule set? Whether you're on the left or the right or the unhappy middle right now, we can all agree that the government, there's some issues, whatever government we're talking about. Like, every, every country, everyone goes, "There's some things I don't..." Anyone who's ever been to the DMV, I've never walked into the DMV and thought, "These people should be in charge of everything. This is great. This is the best and brightest minds working in the most efficient manner possible. I should let them make the rules that govern my marriage." So if you don't have a prenup, what you are saying is, "I trust the government, present and future, a government I haven't even seen yet." Because instead of writing this contract with my partner and amending it from time to time if we'd like, changing it as our circumstances change, I'm going to trust that the rule set that will be in effect at a time in the future uncertain, that that will be a rule set that is best for me.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
That's crazy. That's absolutely go- There is nothing about that that is rational at all. What you're simply saying is, "I don't wanna have this conversation right now. I'll just, whatever. Whatever they're serving at the restaurant, I'll eat." And I think that that's very shortsighted, but it's a function of the fact that we've been taught to view prenups a certain way.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And that is that you have a lack of confidence in the staying power of this relationship. I, I think that's changing, and I'm grateful for that.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Not just from a professional standpoint because there's never been a divorce lawyer that made very much money on prenups.
- JSJay Shetty
Right.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, we, we, it's just not a high profit item. Litigation, there's much more money in helping people tear each other to shreds in a courtroom than there ever was in mediation or in prenuptial agreements. Prenuptial agreements, if anything, are bad for divorce lawyers because they simplify-
- JSJay Shetty
Right
- JSJames Sexton
... the uncoupling if it happens-
- JSJay Shetty
Right
- JSJames Sexton
... because you have a rule set.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, that makes sense.
- JSJames Sexton
But, but I always, I think we need, we are seeing, I think, some changes in the way we're normalizing prenups as a society, and I think that's really, really healthy.
- JSJay Shetty
Well, I think it's even the way you just spoke about it because I think when you realize, oh, you have one anyway-And, and when that kind of locks in, you go, "Oh yeah, we..." Because, you know, that's the fascinating thing about marriage is that you don't even... It's been so normalized-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- 1:22:26 – 1:29:45
How to Bring Up The Prenup
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Well, it's, it's, it's a great... It's actually... So I had a friend who got married recently, and, you know, in love, everything else, and before the marriage, they decided to do a prenup. And he was talking about how hard it was to bring it up, how hard it was to have the conversation, but he was saying that it actually gave them all the skills they'll need [laughs] -
- JSJames Sexton
Oh my God, it's so good
- JSJay Shetty
... for the most difficult conversation. [laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
I have to tell you, I've had a number of clients, many, who come in and say, "I don't even know how to bring this up." Like, I represent a lot of people in finance, a lot of men in finance, young men, late 20s, early 30s, high net worth, and they're marrying someone who's not in that space. So they're, they're marrying a yoga teacher, or they're marrying, you know, someone who's an artist, and they say, "Look, I, I have a lot of confidence in the marriage. I wouldn't marry this person if I didn't believe in it. But I, you know, I wanna have some protections in place." And, uh, these are people who are phenomenal at their jobs. Their jobs involve a tremendous amount of risk.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, they're so much less risk-averse than I am. Like, they, you know, they move markets, you know, and they make big bets, you know? And they're terrified-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... of saying, "Hey, you know, we're getting married and all."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
"Like, there's gonna be rules that, you know, govern this, and, like, maybe we should be the ones to make the rules."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Because it's met with such a sense of, "What do you mean? What do you..." And by the way, it also creates in the person who has perhaps less incentive in that situation to, to have a prenup, that a prenup would be worse for them rather than better in the event of a divorce. Again, at that moment, you don't know what the future holds for anybody. It, that, that person has plausible deniability as to why they're against it.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, they're not gonna say, "Well, no, I don't want a prenup 'cause I wanna be able to take you for everything you're worth." What they would say is, "Oh, well, no. Why would you w- need a prenup? Like, we're gonna stay married forever, don't you, wouldn't you bet on that? You bet on this stock."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
"You won't bet on this?" Like, and ha- but here's the problem. It's, it's not betting on a stock because, you know, investing in a stock, I know my maximum loss is whatever I put in, right? So it goes to zero. So I know what my loss is. It's more like shorting a stock-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... where there's almost no limit to how much you could potentially lose, 'cause you're talking about a future you-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... that you can't foresee at this moment what it's gonna look like. So yeah, it's a, it's the same phenomenon that I think... But it's, but I have had clients who then come to me and say, "You know, even if we never got a prenup, having conversations about it-"
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... was so good."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Because really, the way that I... And I do get calls from a lot of particularly young men, but, but both genders, saying, "How do I have a conversation about a prenup?"And I've always thought a really great entry point is to say what I believe to be true, which is it's very hard to feel loved if you don't feel safe.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
That everyone should feel safe.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like I- I've represented victims of, of domestic violence for many years, and I can tell you, if you love someone, you want them to be safe.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
It's fundamental, right? So I, I think that's a good entry point-
- 1:29:45 – 1:31:18
Talk Through Your Anger, Don’t Act On It
- JSJay Shetty
like, you know, kind of gives me goosebumps and just kind of hits there because you're like, gosh, how many, how many people would save the time, the money, the energy, the-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... pain that they go through simply because we didn't explain our anger, we just expressed it.
- JSJames Sexton
Right.
- JSJay Shetty
And-
- JSJames Sexton
And we didn't understand it ourselves.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, I, I joke that I don't do much mediation. Uh, I, I used to do more of it. Litigation's more lucrative, so unfortunately it's taken a back s- and I've gotten very, I'm very good at courtroom work, so I, I've sort of found a niche that, you know, works for me. But I used to joke that mediation, you're ... I used to say I was an English translator because I would always do shuttle diplomacy, and I would put them in separate rooms, and I would get them to talk to me candidly about what they were dealing with. And they would say like, you know, "Well, I don't want him bringing the kids around that whore of a girlfriend of his," da, da, da. And then I'd go in the other room and I'd say, "You know, she has some concerns about how the children are being exposed to new relationships, and I'm sure when she's in a new relationship that's a, that's a concern you could share." And he's like, "Well, yeah, of course. You know, we shouldn't both be, you know, introducing the kids to someone we're not serious about." I'm like, "Exactly."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know, you don't want your kids to feel untethered and that. Now we're having a useful conversation. But if I'd let them go at it with each other-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... it, it, the way it, the minute it comes out, there's this feeling of like, [growls] you know, and now we're positional, and now we're-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... right at it.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. What's
- 1:31:18 – 1:36:17
Using Love As a Weapon
- JSJay Shetty
something you've heard in your office or in court that broke your heart?
- JSJames Sexton
Like I said, I'm sensitive, so I think a lot of things break my heart. Um, [sighs] you know, I, I've developed such a professional callus that it shocks me sometimes because things that should register on my emotional radar, but I, I think I would be, I think I would be much less effective at what I do if I let that happen. You know? Like, I, I have a friend who's a pediatric oncologist, and I said to him once, "How do you do that job and not just cry all day?" Like, you're just with children with cancer all day. I can't-- That would be like one of the rings of hell for me. And he said, "Uh, it's not hard." He said, "I, that's, I'm here t-to be of service, and I will be less effective if I allow myself to do that. So I have to learn to turn that part of me off. I have to see this, not lose my humanity, not lose..." You know, there's a saying from Resus Sardonicus, um, he said, um, "I have resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in order to attain certain specific objectives for people whose suffering is greater than my need to maintain moral purity."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
So I think sometimes-
- JSJay Shetty
So good
- JSJames Sexton
... I find myself saying I, I, I, I believe-- I, I represent the client, but I also represent the system.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And I don't always believe in the client, but I have to believe in the system. And so the things that break my heart most often is when I am used as an instrument for cruelty to another person, or when people in a courtroom lose because they can't afford better representation. I, I think in our judicial system in the United States, unfortunately, you get as much justice as you can afford sometimes. And it's not supposed to be that way. It's supposed to be equal protection under law. It's really supposed to be-- It's what drew me to the field, is this sense that, like, a multimillionaire and a poor person have equal protection under law, and you're supposed to have vigorous representation. But this is like any other field. Like, there are people that are excellent at it, and the people that are excellent at it very often rise to the top and start to only represent-- Like, I, I jokingly say that, you know, I represent all kinds of people, gay people, straight people, Black people, white people. I don't represent poor people very often. You know? I'm, I'm $850 an hour, and so people sometimes get less apt counsel that's less expensive, and the only thing more expensive than a good divorce lawyer is a bad one. So I think sometimes that's a very unfortunate reality of our system. I'd like to think that at some chapter in the not too distant future, I'll, I'll be at a place in my career where I can just, like, quit private practice and work for, like, a legal services agency. I've seen a couple of my colleagues do that, and I, I'm just cheering for them because they suddenly bring, like, this massive amount of experience and talent to bear for, for, to create access to justice. So I think the things that break my heart in courtrooms are not what you'd think, which is the day-to-day testimony of listening to the pain of people and their children. It, it really is when the system fails.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
There are some judges that should not be wearing a robe, like they're supposed to stand for something.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And some of them don't. And a bad lawyer can screw things up, but a bad judge can really screw things up in a gigantic way. They have-- They are given power, and with great power comes great responsibility, and some of them do not deserve it. They, they do not-- They, they are not-- They won a popularity contest. Like, New York has an elected judiciary, so they won a popularity contest.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And we're blessed. I have some judges I appear in front of who they are perfect for the role. They have the temperament. They have the experience. They have, they have the empathy. Like, but there are some that, you know, they're drunk on the power of it. They're mad at the world. They're mad at their own ex-wife or ex-husband, and they're taking it out on people in a courtroom. And when that happens, that's, um, there's a powerlessness in that, that I, I have a very hard time navigating because I can't be the out cause. Like, I don't know how to fix that.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know?
- 1:36:17 – 1:42:59
Should You Fight for It or Let Go?
- JSJay Shetty
How does someone know, and how do you know about-- H-how does someone know if they should keep trying to fix a relationship or it's time to get a divorce?
- JSJames Sexton
I mean, that's such a subjective assessment.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
I'm a fan of, you know, there's that old axiom that, you know, quitters never win and winners never quit. But if you never win and you never quit, you're an idiot. [laughs] So at some point, like at some point, I think people have to know it's time. You know? I was a hospice volunteer for many years, and the biggest thing that anyone who works in hospice will tell you is that people call hospice too late. Like, there's so much that you can do in palliative care if they come to you earlier, and, and they come to you early in the process. If someone has a terminal diagnosis, even if they're not ready for hospice care yet, you can put a plan in place.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
"Okay, when we hit this milestone, we're gonna do this, and when we hit this..." We can't add years to your life, but we can add life to your years, you know?By the time people are in my office, it's so far down that road that it's, I think, quite hard to find-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... your way back.
- JSJay Shetty
Right.
- JSJames Sexton
So I, I think, um, when you've reached the point in a relationship where you have made real good faith efforts to identify and address the distance, and that has been wholly unsuccessful, and the other person is not committed, maybe not in the same level of commitment as you, but not committed at all, 'cause identifying that there is a problem is the first piece. So if the other person is saying, "No, there's no problem," I think there comes a point where, again, sometimes happily ever after means happily ever after separately.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And I, I'm a believer in divorce. I, I'm not j- I mean, of course I'm, as a divorce lawyer, I have a self-interest in saying that. But even in my own life, I, I divorced 20 years ago, and my ex-wife is very dear to me. She's a, she's still a, a dear friend. Her, she's been remarried for 15 years, very successfully, much longer than we were ever married, to a, to a wonderful guy. I just got to spend a lot of time with them at my son's wedding, and we had a lot of laughs and a lot of shared time and space together, and this, these two boys who we both love so much. And, um, I think that was an example of... You know, when, when I, when my ex-wife and I, 20 years ago, when we decided we were going to divorce, we had a very difficult and honest conversation at the kitchen table, and our kids were, I think, f- three and four, uh, three and five at the time, and, uh, we loved them more than anything. And I remember she said to me after we'd had this very teary, very difficult conversation, we were both really honest with each other about how deeply unfulfilled we felt and how much we loved each other, but that there's a lot of people that you love that you might not be well married to. And I remember she said to me, "If sheer power of will could make two people love each other, we would love each other forever." I remember thinking it was so honest and so true that sometimes love, just the feeling of love, is not enough to sustain this very particular kind of connection two people are going to have. Like, my sons thankfully grew up in, in an environment of tremendous love and a deep connection to both their mom and I, but they laughingly now say as adults, like, "How were you and mom ever married?" Like, "You, you have nothing in common. You don't like any of the same things." Like, and I laugh and I say to them, "Yeah, we're, we're incredibly different." Like, in the best relationships, it's like the Venn diagram. There's the you, the me, and the we, and there's some overlap, you know? And us, it just wasn't, you know? But we were, you know, we met when we were 18, you know? She was beautiful. You know, I was cool, and I had a motorcycle. Like, I don't know. Like, those are the things that matter at that age. You know, we're making this decision, like, I often say to people, you know, "If I said to you, you can have any car you want when you were 18, what car would you have had?"
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, it would've been some sports car.
- JSJames Sexton
Okay.
- JSJay Shetty
Something quite light, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Okay. If then I told you, "Oh, that's the only car you're gonna have for the rest of your life," do you think 18-year-old you would think, "Well, wait, it's not gonna fit a car seat"?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
"And when I'm 80, how am I gonna get in and out of it?" So that's what we're doing when we marry. Like, we're this young-- Like, I, I wish I was 25 again, 'cause I still knew everything. Like, I knew everything when I was 25, if you ask me. Like, now I'm humble enough, like, life will humble you enough that you go, "Oh yeah, like, the list of stuff I don't know gets bigger-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... not smaller."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And my humility grows.
- JSJay Shetty
Yes. Yes.
- JSJames Sexton
And I think-
- JSJay Shetty
So true
- JSJames Sexton
... we're, we're, we, we marry at an age, rightfully so, where we, you know, we wanna have kids maybe. We wanna, you know, our biological clocks are ticking. We're so gassed up on hormones and love and sex and everything, so, so we're making this gigantic life decision at an age where we still think we know everything, but our prefrontal cortex isn't even necessarily fully developed. So what do you think is gonna happen there? You know, we have to be willing to say, you know, "Hey, maybe, maybe we made the wrong decision. Maybe we made the wrong choices." Again, I'm a fan of doing everything you can. It's just like hospice. Do what you can.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Do what you can to sustain your life and have joy and quality of life. You can have a lot of impairments happen to your body and still have a tremendous quality of life, a wonderful quality of life. But when you've reached the point where now we've tipped to the direction where my quality of life, my prognosis is so bad that the inevitable is going to happen sooner rather than later, that's when we should start talking about, okay, what now?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And that's what I think this just is.
- 1:42:59 – 1:48:59
How Parental Conflict Affects Children
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. You talking about your, your former partner and your two sons, and obviously being at the wedding, like, it, it's so fresh for you, and I was thinking about it because I think a lot of people go through this. You probably hear it a million times. And I've had so many friends talk about this, but is staying together for the kids actually hurting the kids?
- JSJames Sexton
Well, this is a, a really important question because I think a lot of people stay in challenging relationships for the benefit of their children.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And I don't, I don't think that's a bad thing. I think when you have children with someoneA, a lot of difficulty comes with children. We don't like to talk about that in polite society, but children are antagonistic to marriage.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
We talked about it earlier in this conversation, like they take attention away from each other, and that, by the way, that's one of the great things about having children is it's not all about you anymore.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And that's good, you know? But it's also challenging emotionally, and, and it- we feel guilty to say it out loud. You know? Again, one of the great innovations I think of our present time is that for a time there was a book called The Mask of Motherhood where before the internet, you know, women were constantly, "How's the baby?" "Oh, it's great. Everything's great. It's great. Everything's great. It's great." And meanwhile they're like, "Oh my God," like, "I'm s- this is horrible. I'm exhausted. I love this baby, but I want to kill it sometimes because it won't stop crying, and I feel out of control." Like, and now I think we have a society where I think there's a tremendous amount of like, you can say that, and other women will go, "Yeah, that's okay. I felt like that, too. We're supposed to feel like that. It's okay. Doesn't mean you don't love your kid." That's beautiful. That's wonderful. But I think we've got to a place where, you know, some of those hard things to talk about we don't talk about in the context of relationship.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And I think there is value in having bonds that tie us together like children, but the skill set of a spouse and the skill set of a parent are different.
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely.
- JSJames Sexton
You know?
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely.
- JSJames Sexton
I, I, I would like to say I was not a great husband. I, I, I'm not ... Like, I have a number of deficiencies. You know? Like I'm impatient. I'm, you know ... Some of the things that would make me a, make a good husband I don't possess. I'm an excellent ex-husband. I'm reliable. I'm communicative. I'm, you know, I'm dependable. Um, I'm very child focused. I'm a really good father. You know? I'm a really good father. I, I, I ... So I think sometimes people come into my office and they say like, "Oh, he was a terrible husband, and I don't want him to have any time with the kids," hard- and then you kind of go, "Well, wait a minute. Is he a bad father?" Because even though some of the skills might overlap, you know, it, it, like patience would be good in both of those roles, they're very different roles. So I think identifying that is important. I think what the long-term behavioral research on children and divorce says, and there's a great book called The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce that was the longest term study ever done of children of divorce, and what it essentially found is that although divorce and conflict, parental conflict correlate, right? Makes sense. People that have a lot of conflict often divorce. That the parental conflict is what's most damaging to children.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Loyalty binds and witnessing parental conflict is harmful to children. It stands to reason that many children of divorce have grown up in part or in long in a home filled with conflict because people with lots of conflict often get divorced. But it's not the c- it's not the divorce. It's the conflict that is, and the parental conflict that's so harmful. So I would certainly say if you are struggling in your relationship and you have children, you have a tremendous incentive to figure out, is there a way for us to, to reconcile this relationship temporarily or long-term in a way that doesn't betray our core identities or ideals?
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
But if you are in a relationship where you are, your children are surrounded by conflict in the ecosystem of your home, I don't think you're doing them any favors gutting it out and staying together. Like, 'cause I, again, I, I don't think the goal of marriage should be, "We did it. We did it. We, we made it to death. We were miserable for the last 30 years, but we did it." Like it's, that seems strange to me.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
I think the goal should be marriag- marriage satisfaction.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
And are we ... I would hope that at the end of your life you are still married to your wife and that what she would say of you is, "He made my life better."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
"He helped me figure out who I am. He helped me become the most authentic version of myself." Like, what more noble goal could there be to life than to find someone and love them and help them become who they are?
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? And help them, like, help you become who you are-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm
- JSJames Sexton
... and who you're meant to be.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
So if that's the goal, if the marriage isn't facilitating that result-
- 1:48:59 – 1:59:09
Be the Calm Your Child Needs
- JSJay Shetty
And there's also what you said, there's a nuance there because if it's the conflict that affects the kids-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... the conflict can exist when you're together and when you're divorced.
- JSJames Sexton
Of course.
- JSJay Shetty
So if you're still having-
- JSJames Sexton
Of course
- JSJay Shetty
... that distance but you're still talking about the other person in an unhealthy way-
- JSJames Sexton
Oh
- JSJay Shetty
... and there's constantly games with the kids, like, so-
- JSJames Sexton
I've seen every permutation of that.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
I mean, and that's the stuff that the way people unintentionally harm their children with permission of their own conscience.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? And they, they genuinely believe they're, like, helping their children.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? But, but that's the danger. Like, divorce is, is, is so challenging because, you know, there's, there's become an increasing amount of attention paid in the legal system now to parental estrangement.And, and parental estrangement can sometimes be rooted in something genuine. If someone's a, a, a bad parent, children eventually don't want to be around- Yeah, yeah, yeah ... that person. But sometimes parental estrangement is caused by alienation, which is the active interference in the parent-child relationship and the natural development of that bond, and sometimes it's what's called negative gatekeeping. Mm-hmm. Which is where you could have been helpful- Mm-hmm ... in helping your co-parent stay bonded to your child, that instead you chose to do nothing. Yeah. So one is an active interference, and the other is a passive, you know? And very often what you see in, in, in contested ugly custody cases, which I do a lot of, you see some combination of those things. Mm-hmm. So, like, dad steps on the rake. He does something stupid. He, he yells at the child the way he shouldn't have. He punishes them in a way that he shouldn't have. And mom could have helped the kid navigate that better. But instead, 'cause she doesn't like dad, she weaponizes it. Mm-hmm. And she has the permission of her own conscience, because she goes, "I'm protecting my child." But it's so subtle. Like, that's the danger- Yeah, it certainly is ... is, you know, like, when... It takes a rare kind of crazy person to say, "Your dad is a bad person." Mm-hmm. "And you shouldn't love him." Mm-hmm. But it takes nothing to do, "Hello. Here, it's your dad." Yeah. "I just said Dad's a bad person. I don't have to say it out loud." You know? It's the difference between, "Oh, how was, how was your weekend with Dad? What'd you guys do?" "Oh, we went to the park, and we, you know, met his new friend, Cindy." "Oh yeah? Oh, that's nice. What'd you guys- Y- What, what'd you have to eat?" "Oh, we got pizza," da-da da. "Oh, that's great. What was Cindy like?" "Oh, she's really nice, you know, she's, uh, got pretty blonde hair and she, uh, likes to ride bicycles." "Oh, that's n- You like to ride bicycles, too, so that's nice. I, I'm not surprised that Dad likes her, 'cause Dad likes bicycles, too, you know? All right, go upstairs. You know, you got school tomorrow morning. Let's figure out what we're gonna do." And, "I'm so glad you're back. I b- I missed you so much when you were with Dad. Are you okay? Yeah, you okay? Did everything go okay? Are you all right? Yeah. What'd you do? You went to, you went to the park? You went to the... Why, wh- It's been so cold out. Why'd you go to the... Oh, you went... Did y- just you and Dad went? Cindy who? Who's Cindy?" [laughs] "Who's Cin- Cindy, Dad's friend? Does... Do you mean Dad's girlfriend? Does Dad have a girlfriend now, and he's not telling anyone that he has a girlfriend? You know, d- uh, you know... " Well, you know what? Go upstairs and, and, uh, you know, get whatever you do." Like- Yeah ... I just told this kid so much. And the part of the judicial system, 'cause as a lawyer, it doesn't matter what I know, it matters what I can prove. So you know what the judicial system's solution to that is? We'll assign a lawyer to the kid, and the lawyer is gonna sit down with the kid and say, "Does Mom ever say bad things about Dad?" And guess what? The answer's no. Yeah. "I didn't say... What did she say that was bad about Dad?" Wow. "She didn't say anything bad about Dad. She asked, 'What'd you have to eat?' I missed you. It's nice that you're home." "Who's Cindy?" Yeah. Like, "Who's Cindy? I was asking a question. I- He, he brought her, this person around our child. I don't know who they are, you know? So I just wanted to ask my... Oh, oh, who is she?" But meanwhile, no, you sent a whole message to that kid. Mm. And by the way, be a grown-up. Like, love your kid more than you hate your ex. Mm. Because all you have to do in that situation is do what you do as an adult, which is pretend. Like, I remember my son Noah, who's now 28, when he just got married. I remember him when he was about four years old having pneumonia, and he had, like, 104 fever. And he was burning up. Mm. And he was in my lap. And I remember like it was yesterday. I remember the doctor said to us, 'cause we called him panicked, the doctor said, "Okay, if it goes to 105, you gotta get him to the emergency room." And I remember him, like, so, like, it's a visceral memory, so sick. And I remember being like, "It's okay. It's okay, buddy. It's okay. You're okay. You're okay. It's okay. You're okay. No, you're fine. You're j- you're just sick right now. It's gonna be okay. Don't worry about it. It's okay. Everything's gonna be fine." 'Cause that's what you do. Like, that's what you do. He did not need me to do what I'm even recalling this memory 24 years later, and he's fine. He's on his honeymoon. He's fine. Like, but I, I'm literally ready to cry thinking about it because I remember being so terrified. I'd never been that scared in my life. I loved this thing more than I'd ever loved anything, and I thought, "Oh my God, he's gonna die." But what he needed me to do in that moment is be strong and lie. Yeah. He needed that from me. And so do that. Mm. Just do that. I don't care if you're upset that Dad's dating Cindy, and that Dad really stepped on the rake and should have told you, "Hey, I'm gonna introduce our kid to this girl I've been seeing." And you guys should have had a conversation where you say, like, "Hey, is this someone you're serious about before you take them around our kid? And what are you gonna tell the kid? And give me a little info on this so we can figure out how to, like, send the right message together," you know? That's not the place to have that with the kid. You have to have that with your co-parent. But again, we don't teach people, we don't teach people how to do relationships. Yeah. And we don't teach them how to do when relationships end. And with 50% or more of marriages ending in divorce, we could do better at teaching- Absolutely ... people how to be good ex-husbands and good ex-wives, how to be good co-parents after divorce. But nobody wants to buy that book. Yeah. Yeah. Nobody wants to buy that book, 'cause they all think they're great at it. Yeah. They all think they're great at it. And I have some clients that are abysmally bad at it, and a lot of what I have to do is give them credit where credit's not due.I have to say to them like, "Right, but of course you would never do X, Y, and Z, 'cause I know you, and I know you're a good person. I know you love your kids." You know? So I have to play little mind games with them and say to them all the time, like, you know, they'll say, "Well, I'm gonna introduce, you know, the kids to my girlfriend this weekend. You know, do I have to tell her?" I'll go, "Do you have to? No, you don't have to, but of course you should. Of course you will."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Like, you're... "Wouldn't you wanna know if she was gonna..." Yeah, and, and obviously this person you're introducing them to, you're, you know, I'm sure you're not doing that with someone that you, like, met on Tinder and you're, you know, gonna know for two weeks. Like, this, I'm sure this is a serious relationship. And they're like, "Well, yeah, it's sorta serious." I'm like, "Because if it's not, you know, you might-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... obviously might wanna wait a little bit, you know?" [laughs] And, like, I have to be in-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... the position where I'm educating them-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... as to what to do.
- JSJay Shetty
Without educating them. Yeah, you've gotta kinda be that.
- JSJames Sexton
Right. Right, 'cause I'm their advocate.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.
- JSJames Sexton
I'm their advocate. But the, the truth of my profession, and the best of us that do this, 'cause I can say it about my colleagues, although I've never been their client, in the courtroom at the negotiating table, I am a vociferous advocate. I'm a weapon, you know? I'll advocate for whatever crazy position is necessary in that situation. Behind closed doors, I'm this.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah, yeah [laughs] .
- JSJames Sexton
Like, I'm, I'm very blunt with my clients.
- 1:59:09 – 2:02:52
The Real Problems Marriage Can’t Solve
- JSJay Shetty
it's painful though, because it all comes down back to what we've been talking about this whole time, which is this personal growth and ego of not-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... in, in every, whether it's you being mad at your partner when you're together, whether it's you being on the honeymoon or dating, whether it's you thinking about divorce, it's always your ego and your control and your desire for power-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... that's constantly getting in the way, even to the toaster oven-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... which is that final straw of, "No, I wanna have the final say, and-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... they should feel the wrath and not me." And it's, it's that growth of, like, when are those insecurities not gonna be mine anymore, and when are those... You know, 'cause hopefully I'm getting divorced so that I can move on from that.
- JSJames Sexton
It's the-
- JSJay Shetty
But if I'm still upset that the person's with Cindy, like, that's just-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... pulling me. I'm still controlled by that person.
- JSJames Sexton
And by the way, it's, it's perfectly okay to feel jealous. It's perfectly-
- JSJay Shetty
100%
- JSJames Sexton
... okay to feel... But, but I totally agree. I, I think all of these problems, whether they're in the context of divorce or in the context of navigating a functional relationship that's having challenges, or employer-employee relationships, you're right, it's all ego-based things. Neil Postman, who was one of my mentors at NYU, a beautiful, prolific writer about culture, he used to say that technology offers us real solutions to imaginary problems and imaginary solutions to real problems.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm. Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
And I think marriage is an imaginary solution to a real problem. The real problem is we're alone.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
We feel terribly alone. This world is easier to navigate with someone. You can't learn everything you need to know about yourself from yourself.
- JSJay Shetty
Absolutely.
- JSJames Sexton
You need someone who sees your blind spots. There's nothing more wonderful than feeling loved, other than perhaps giving love and having someone feel your love, who you love. So these are all real problems.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
But the idea that I'm going to get a piece of jewelry on my finger, and I've got that locked down now, and I'm going to not feel this, like, that's... Look, I, I represent some of the wealthiest people in the United States. I am in the f- finance capital arguably of the world. Some of my clients are worth billions of dollars. My wealthiest client is probably worth about $8 billion. He is as bad at this as anyone. You cannot buy your way into it. Like, you can't. You know? There's, there's no amount of money that you can spend to fix disconnection between you and your partner. There's noBirkin bag, you can buy them. There's nothing you can do-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... that will replace some of these fundamental things. And the struggles like money, you know, neither you nor I grew up with money. And I think when you grow up without money, I don't know if this was your experience, it certainly was mine, money came to symbolize everything I didn't have. Like if, if I have money, I'll feel safe. If I have money, I'll feel valuable and worthy. If I have money, I'll feel secure. And then you get money, and you just have money.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Like you don't ... You still feel unsafe, you still feel ... Are some things easier? Of course, of course. Money's important, and it does make some things easier, and it does give some modicum of security. But from the fundamental challenges of life, like these real challenges. So those are real problems. I think marriage, again, asking the question, what is the problem to which marriage is a solution, is the key.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- 2:02:52 – 2:07:46
Who Files For Divorce More: Men or Women?
- JSJay Shetty
Who files for divorce more, men or women?
- JSJames Sexton
Women by a significant majority. It's over 70% of divorces are incepted by women.
- JSJay Shetty
Wow.
- JSJames Sexton
Unfortunately, though, that's a statistic that gets unfairly weaponized quite often.
- JSJay Shetty
How should we process it? What does it tell us?
- JSJames Sexton
So the popular antagonism in the, what do you want to call it, the manosphere or in, in a m-
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm
- JSJames Sexton
... in misogynist spaces, whatever you might want to call it, in, in, in, in spaces that are there to defend men's perspective, is that women are somehow coming into the casino of marriage, amassing a lot of winnings, and then cashing out, and that's why the number of women in, is in the 70% in the commencement of divorce actions. What I have found in my own practice is that, that although that is certainly the case sometimes, that more often than not, it is that, um, men more often than women go out for milk and never come back, or just come home one day and say, "I'm leaving."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
Part of that has to do with children. I think we know you can be a Bella Abzug feminist if you'd like to be, and I think you would concede that if you met me, a man, and said, "Jim, tell me about yourself," and I said, "Well, I'm divorced. I'm a lawyer. I see my children every other weekend and once a week for dinner. They live with their mom," this would in almost no way shape your opinion of me as a parent. Whereas if I was a woman and I said, "I'm divorced. The children live with their father, and I see them every other weekend and once a week for dinner," there's some part of you that would go-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... "What is wrong with her?"
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Drug issue? Or like, is there like, you know, substance abuse or some mental health? Like what? So why? Because the overwhelming majority still of primary care of children is on women.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm-hmm.
- JSJames Sexton
So I think that the reason why women are more often the plaintiff in the divorce action is that we have created a society where for a man to walk away, say, "Bye, I'm out," it's easier. And so when that happens, and it happens often, I have women who come into my office and say, "What do I do?"
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
"He left."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm. He's already checked out.
- JSJames Sexton
"The, the mortgage hasn't been paid. I, I don't know, like, how am I gonna do X, Y, and Z?" And I say, "Okay, we have to file a divorce action." And they go, "Wait, no. I don't want to file a divorce action. I'm not the one who wants a divorce. He is. I want him to come back and for everything to be okay." "Okay. But he's not coming back, and everything's not okay. But what you need is the mortgage to be paid and an order that gives you temporary child support. And the only way I can do that is to get a judge assigned, and the only way I can get a judge assigned is to file a divorce action."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
So then what happens is we file the divorce action, and then nine times out of 10, the guy who went out for milk and never came back, "I can't believe you filed for divorce. She... Well, she's the one who filed for divorce," and you kind of go, "Okay. No. Like, you killed it. She buried it."
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
"I get it. But like, you killed it. Like, what are you talking about?" You know? And by the way, I'm not suggesting you should have stayed. There's lots of good reasons why a marriage might end, but just leaving and not confronting, again, it's the same problem, right? Is, is it surprising that in a marriage where people were afraid to have difficult conversations, that they might essentially do the equivalent of ghosting? Like, "I'm just gonna leave. I'm just out," you know? So that's where that statistic I think is, is a, it's abused.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
Because if only, again, if only, if only. Like I, I in some ways wish we lived in a world like Solzhenitsyn said, where, where if only there were just evil people, and we could just segregate them from the rest of us and live our lives in peace. It's not how it works. The line of good and evil runs right through the human heart.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And so there is not a simple answer-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... that, oh, yes, women are just gold diggers, and they're filing for divorce because they're cashing their chips out. I have seen many, many women commence divorce actions where they're taking a gigantic economic hit. I have a client who recently refiled for divorce knowing that under the prenup what she's gonna get, she's no longer going to have private jets.
- 2:07:46 – 2:13:39
How Divorce Impacts Men and Women Differently
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Who suffers more from divorce, men or women?
- JSJames Sexton
[sighs] I think the world is cruel to both in different ways.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
I think there is sometimes a tremendous economic burden put on men that is well beyond their capacity. I've seen child support awards and spousal maintenance or alimony awards that are, are so gigantic that it, it just literally cripples a man, um, especially when someone's lost their job, and then the courts are very quick sometimes to say, "Well, your earning capacity is commensurate with your last employment, so you'll find another job." So the world can be cruel to men in that way. And also, I think there... even though we abolished what used to be called the maternal presumption, which was a presumption, or used to be called the tender years doctrine, which is the presumption that women are better custodial parents to children than men, we still live in the world, and there's a tremendous amount of bias, and there are a lot of really good dads and a lot of really awful moms, and vice versa.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
But to suggest that because someone gave birth to a child, like under your skin is under your sovereignty, to assume that that person is a better caregiver to a child is absolutely ridiculous. So, um, men, men are, are terribly hurt by the divorce system and the divorce industrial complex in those ways. They don't have the time with their children that they probably would benefit from and that the children would benefit from, and it's very easy to weaponize those things. Women, um, the divorce system is sometimes very expensive to get the relief that you're entitled to. Um, the barriers to entry and to getting that award is very challenging. And I think post-divorce, my observation has been a divorced man, his prospects for future relationships are better.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
I think when... And again, I, I, this is not a, you know, an indictment of... I, I... Believe me, I'm sure that there are exceptions to this like there are to everything. But by and large, women, in my observation of many, many, many, many clients, [chuckles] divorced men have a m- much bigger menu of options. Like there's... You know, a guy gets divorced in his early 40s and he's got a couple of kids, he can usually get women in their 20s and their 30s because they'll look at it and go, "Oh, instant family, just add me. Like, great. Like, I'll be a step-parent and, you know, I'll get involved in this. Maybe we'll have our own kids too, but even if we don't, I'll get to have something quasi-parental and..." And by the way, there will also be divorced women who he, you know, "Hey, our life, lives are similar. We have co-parents. We have these things. Let's get together and let's get married and Brady Bunch it," you know?
- JSJay Shetty
[chuckles]
- JSJames Sexton
Women, I, I think, get a, a shorter end of the stick on that. I think that there are a lot of men who see a woman who's divorced, even a young, beautiful, intelligent, articulate woman who's divorced through no fault of her own, perhaps. Maybe she had a, a, made a bad choice and, and this is not, was not a good person for her or for her children. And a lot of men will look at it and go, "Eh."
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
"She's got baggage. I don't, I don't wanna deal with that, and I, I don't want what comes with that." Again, many men step up in that situation.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah, yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
And I think I've had the amazing experience of watching some men step up, where I've had these young female clients and they get divorced, and they're just convinced their life is over. They're like, "I'm 34 years old, I got two kids, and I'm divorced," you know? And then some guy, very often, like unexpected, like a young guy with no kids who's never been married, steps in and is like a hero. And, and, you know, a couple years later, I'm going to their wedding, you know? And, and, uh, a few of them, I have one couple in particular I'm thinking of, uh, she's had the greatest post-divorce life and greatest post-divorce marriage I've ever seen, and now they have a baby together, the two of them, and this guy really stepped in to be a step-parent for, for, uh, her kids i- in a beautiful way. And, uh, you know, it's amazing. But, but I think as a general rule, my observation has been it's, it's... Divorce is, is hard on men and hard on women in just different ways.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, James, it has been such a joy talking to you today, and I feel like I'm learning so much and just... What, what's really incredible talking to you about it is that you, you really do have this rare ability to go, to go from being really logical and rational about something to then being really emotional [chuckles] and emotive about it, and it's-
- JSJames Sexton
Try, try being this person
- JSJay Shetty
... Yeah. And it's really beautiful to watch.
- JSJames Sexton
Oh.
- JSJay Shetty
I, I, I really, uh, I really appreciate how you can oscillate between the two quite comfortably and gracefully.
- JSJames Sexton
Thanks. Thanks.
- JSJay Shetty
And it's, it's really powerful. Uh, just, just taking it all in and, again, the reminders are powerful yet simple, and tho- that's, that's a wonderful thing because-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- JSJay Shetty
... it's that with which we're stumbling.
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah.
- JSJay Shetty
And those are the same things we're all stumbling over, and so-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah. And it's, it's a wonderful commonality for us.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. Yeah, it's a wonderful-
- JSJames Sexton
It's really part of our humanity.
- JSJay Shetty
It's great to know that that's what it is, that it-
- JSJames Sexton
Yeah
- 2:13:39 – 2:27:54
James on Final Five
- JSJay Shetty
We, we end every interview with the final five.
- JSJames Sexton
Mm-hmm.
- JSJay Shetty
These questions have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum.
- JSJames Sexton
Okay.
- JSJay Shetty
However, I'll probably break, break my own rule knowing how good our conversation's been. And so J-
- JSJames Sexton
I'm not known for my brevity.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah. [laughs] Uh, James Sexton, these are your final five. So the first question is, what is the best advice you've ever heard or received? And of course it can be intertwined to love. So what's the best love advice you've ever heard or received or given?
- JSJames Sexton
The best advice I've heard in general, and it applies to love as, as much as it applies to anything else, is the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
That, that any time you're confronted with, with a choice, that the harder thing is usually the right thing. It's easier to sleep in than to exercise, but it might be the right thing to exercise. It's, it's easier to just hold your tongue and not share with your partner something a- that needs to be shared, but the right thing to do is to do the hard thing. So the hard thing to do and the right thing to do are almost always the same thing.
- JSJay Shetty
That's a great answer. I love that. Uh, never had it on the show. Question number two: what is the worst love advice you've ever heard or received?
- JSJames Sexton
Happy wife, happy life.
- JSJay Shetty
Why is that such bad-
- JSJames Sexton
People say it all the time, and whoever created that, I wanna just throttle them. Um, I have an amendment to it, and that is it should not be happy wife, happy life. 'Cause what's meant by that is just, just, just shut your mouth and just do what she tells you, and that's, you know... And I, I, I just think it's terrible advice. I think it's a way to build estrangement between two people. It's a way to disconnect. I think it could be amended to happy spouse, happy house.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
I think that's true. I think that if, if you can help your partner find joy, that your joy will be more accessible, and their desire to help you find joy will be more accessible to them, and it creates a positive cycle. So I would say ha- I would say happy wife, happy life is, is the worst advice. The other, the runner-up would be follow your heart.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Follow your heart. That's one of those things people say-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... like it is what it is.
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah.
- JSJames Sexton
It's like a thing you say when you don't really know what to say.
- JSJay Shetty
[laughs]
- JSJames Sexton
Because I, I genuinely, [laughs] you know... Like, I don't, I don't know that you should listen to your brain, 'cause your brain is lying to you all the time. It's good to listen to your body, 'cause your body doesn't lie to you.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
You know? Doesn't have the agenda that your brain has.
- JSJay Shetty
Mm.
- JSJames Sexton
But your heart, what you're really saying is listen to what I think, what my mind is telling me my heart is saying-
- JSJay Shetty
Yeah
- JSJames Sexton
... and that's, that's dangerous.
Episode duration: 2:27:54
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