Ashley Graham ON: How To Turn Insecurity Into MASSIVE CONFIDENCE | Jay Shetty

Ashley Graham 0:00 That's when I really realized, at 18 years old, that I was on this spiraling downfall of hating who I was. I was working. I was making great money. But when you're working and making great money, but you feel really crappy about yourself, there's nothing that will bring you joy at all.

Jay Shetty 0:17 [upbeat music]

Jay Shetty 0:18 Hello, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thank you so much for being a member of this community. Thank you for committing to self, work, love, and life every single week. And you know, I have this commitment to all of you. You take out of time out of your day, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're on the way to the gym or at the gym, whether you're at the work or you're commuting back home, you commit to taking your time for being here, and I commit to you to bringing guests who can truly transform the way you live, work, and think. And today's guest is absolutely incredible. She is someone who's become a recent friend. I'm excited to get to know her more and more every time we're together, and she's someone who's not going to disappoint. She doesn't really need an introduction, but I'm gonna give her one anyway because she liked the words that I had on my sheet. [laughs] So, but her name is Ashley Graham. She's an incredible supermodel. She's breaking barriers through body activism, and she's a style icon and designer, and she's the host of an incredible show on Ellen Digital Network called Fearless. Ashley, thank you so much for doing this.

Ashley Graham 1:24 Hi, Jay.

Jay Shetty 1:25 Hey.

Ashley Graham 1:25 So happy to be here.

Jay Shetty 1:26 I'm so grateful to have you here.

Ashley Graham 1:27 Thank you for having me.

Jay Shetty 1:29 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 1:29 Hi, everybody.

Jay Shetty 1:30 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 1:30 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:31 I love it, and I'm so glad because we literally met, I think, like, a month ago.

Ashley Graham 1:36 Yes, at the Ellen DeGeneres, um, like, kind of launch. They, they have their, what is it called? The Upfronts? Uh, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:42 Upfronts. That's it, Upfronts in New York.

Ashley Graham 1:43 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:44 And you're launching season two of Fearless.

Ashley Graham 1:46 And I was already a fan of Jay Shetty. The, I was already following you. It was already the thing. And you weren't following me yet. That's okay.

Jay Shetty 1:53 [laughs] That's not true.

Ashley Graham 1:54 But we're friends now.

Jay Shetty 1:55 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 1:55 No, I'm just kidding. Um, but it was so nice. And then, and then we had a nice really great lunch, and-

Jay Shetty 2:00 We did

Ashley Graham 2:01 ... here we are.

Jay Shetty 2:01 We did, and a- actually, Ashley didn't know this, but I told her that day when we met, I was like, "Ashley, I've been stalking you for a long time actually because-"

Ashley Graham 2:08 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 2:08 "... I, I saw you speak at the Forbes 30 Under 30 event in Israel."

Ashley Graham 2:11 That's right, in Israel.

Jay Shetty 2:12 Yeah, exactly. So I'd seen you from then. And then we bumped into each other at UPW in LA.

Ashley Graham 2:17 Yep.

Jay Shetty 2:17 And then, and then we met here. And actually, this was, this is what really impressed me about Ashley. She was attending the Met for, like, the 25th time or whatever it is.

Ashley Graham 2:25 Third.

Jay Shetty 2:25 Third, right.

Ashley Graham 2:26 Third. But, you know.

Jay Shetty 2:26 So she was attending the Met.

Ashley Graham 2:27 25th, third, who's counting?

Jay Shetty 2:28 And, and everyone that week was telling me how busy they were with the Met and getting ready. And then Ashley's like, "Do you wanna do lunch one day before the Met, like, before a fitting?" [laughs] And I was just like, "Here's such an awesome human who has time to have lunch." And I, and I mean that.

Ashley Graham 2:40 I don't know, Jay. I, I really think that people just wanna be, like, they wanna get their relaxation in before the Met-

Jay Shetty 2:45 Sure

Ashley Graham 2:45 ... because it's such a crazy day and evening.

Jay Shetty 2:49 Sure.

Ashley Graham 2:49 But I always have time for lunch.

Jay Shetty 2:51 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 2:51 Always.

Jay Shetty 2:51 Well, thank you. And you, you looked amazing at the Met.

Ashley Graham 2:53 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 2:54 I loved your outfit.

Ashley Graham 2:54 It was so much fun.

Jay Shetty 2:54 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 2:54 Dapper Dan really did a great job.

Jay Shetty 2:56 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 2:56 Oh, yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:57 It was incredible. It was amazing. Well-

Ashley Graham 2:58 I loved it

Jay Shetty 2:58 ... today I'm excited to dive into your journey, your story. I can't wait for my audience to learn more about you and fall more in love with you as well.

Ashley Graham 3:05 Aw.

Jay Shetty 3:06 So really, really excited to do that, and I wanna start where it all began for you in being spotted at a mall.

Ashley Graham 3:13 I know. It's so weird. I think, you know, so that's really where I was discovered as a model, but if you take it back and you go back to, like, how I was raised, I've from, I'm from Texas, Atlanta, Arkansas, New Hampshire, and Nebraska. My dad was a business consultant, so we moved around a lot. And every time he got a better job is when we were moving. And, um, from there, I mean, my mom, she was raised as a farmer, uh, in a farmer family, and my dad was low class, um, a working class, um, kind of family. So when they raised me and my sisters, it was really about, like, being humble, working hard, and when you start something, you finish it. So when I was in the mall and this scout came up to me and said, "Hey, do you wanna be a model?" it was another opportunity that my mom and dad saw as something like, oh, maybe she'll like this thing, because I didn't love basketball. I didn't love soccer, volleyball, 'cause my mom and dad also played a lot of sports. They just kept putting me into sports. I also was not artistic at all. Like, these are just, you know, I, it's like I wasn't good at anything. And then modeling came about, and they were like, "Let's try it." And next thing you know, it just kind of all stuck with me. And, um, I went through what someone might call, like, a modeling school, but it was kind of like this expo where they put you, um, in front of many different agencies, and you kind of have to prance around and, like, I don't know, show your stuff. And an agency liked me and signed me. [smacks lips] And, um, it, it, it was just, like, all very surreal. I had no idea what modeling was. I didn't know what Vogue was. I didn't know what pretty meant. I knew, like, what being the, the most, the, like, having, being the most popular in high school or middle school was, but I did not know what beautiful was until I got into this industry that dictated what beauty was.

Jay Shetty 5:00 Mm.

Ashley Graham 5:00 And then that's when it was like a whole new world for me. And I moved to New York at 17. I had modeled all through high school, and I traveled. I traveled the world. And even when I got home from Paris all the time, my mom would still be like, "You have to mow the lawn, Ashley."

Jay Shetty 5:14 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 5:14 Like this is how I was raised. It was, like, very humble. She's like, "I don't care how much money you just made. It doesn't matter. You still have to babysit your sister." So I was like-

Jay Shetty 5:22 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 5:23 ... "Okay, great. Well, thanks, Mom." Everybody in Paris loved me. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 5:26 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 5:28 Um, uh, but it was, it was interesting because it was, like, two different parallels of what beauty is. At home, uh, my mom raised me to believe in myself and that my exterior had nothing to do with my worth. And, um, s- and she raised my sisters the exact same way. She never looked at herself and degraded herself in front of the mirror, never said she needed to go on a diet. She was very strong and adamant about those things, and that kindness was this, was the most beautiful thing that you could wear. And then I'm in this world that is only based off of your exterior, that is about your worth with your hip, your size to hip measurement, with how beautiful your hair is, what your eye shape is. You know, you, you don't, you're not supposed to have a voice as a model. There's so many... It was just very strange to me. So I knew who I was from my mother and, and my, my father growing up, but then I had to conform to an industry that I wanted to fit into. And, um, it- The reason I think I wanted to fit into it, because it was a whole new world. It was like tasting a new piece of candy. It was, people offered, you know, obscene amounts of money. They offered you to, to feel like you were in. They offered you the opportunity to, um, to be cool. And those are things that I had never felt afforded. And now it's like, "Oh, do I want those things? What do I have to do to get in?" And you s- you start to see yourself, um, kind of make changes in your own belief system to fit into an idea or an ideal that was set that doesn't need to be. And that's exactly what happened. It was, it was just kind of this, like, messy spiral downfall where I had to catch myself really quick before I fell into it.

Jay Shetty 7:12 That's so powerful, though, that you had this incredible upbringing. Like, I love that.

Ashley Graham 7:15 Thank God I did.

Jay Shetty 7:16 Yeah, like, your relationship with your mother and just how she spoke to you about beauty and your family, and I think that that's so unique and rare today as well.

Ashley Graham 7:25 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 7:25 Because I know a lot of people who'd actually say, "Actually, because of the way I was raised, that's where a lot of my insecurities come from."

Ashley Graham 7:31 I know, because-

Jay Shetty 7:31 As opposed to their strengths

Ashley Graham 7:32 ... I talk to a lot of moms, and I always tell them, like, "How are you speaking about yourself in front of your kids?"

Jay Shetty 7:36 Oh, wow.

Ashley Graham 7:37 Because that's how your, your kid is going to actually think of themselves, 'cause they know they're a product of you.

Jay Shetty 7:43 Yes.

Ashley Graham 7:43 Whether they're adopted or whether they are actually physically yours, uh, um, there is no way that they are gonna look at themselves any differently. And I've seen it in all spectrums with mothers that have said, have never said anything bad to their parent, or to their kid, but have talked very badly about themselves, and you see the product of the child. And, um, you know, and I've, I've met people who their parents have talked really poorly to them, and they're some of the most confident people. So, you know.

Jay Shetty 8:10 Yeah. It can go either way. Yeah.

Ashley Graham 8:11 It really can. It really can.

Jay Shetty 8:12 It can go either way. But how did you ... Tell me this, because I think you're someone who at such a young age went through so many huge transformations.

Ashley Graham 8:19 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:20 So many huge transitions.

Ashley Graham 8:21 Yes.

Jay Shetty 8:21 Right? It can't be easy being spotted, traveling all over the world, making all this money, being signed, all of this at such a young age, being brought into this huge industry which already has expectations.

Ashley Graham 8:33 Mm.

Jay Shetty 8:33 How did you start watching yourself catch yourself? Like, how were you able to notice when things were going too far? Because I think a lot of people miss that when they start working for a new company and they start fitting in, or they-

Ashley Graham 8:45 Yeah

Jay Shetty 8:45 ... join this particular business school or university and they start fitting in or whatever it may be. For you, you did it in the most extreme sense, so I'd love to know.

Ashley Graham 8:52 Of course. So just being thrown into an industry that, like you said, it's the money, it's the travel, it's the experience, and then it's also about staying in that kind of, like, it mode.

Jay Shetty 9:05 Yes.

Ashley Graham 9:05 And the thing about, uh, being a curvy model is that at that time you only were in basically one category, and that was catalog. So I didn't have to be, like, an it girl on the runway that had to, like, keep my hair in, like, a buzz cut and, like, platinum and then, like, have it long for next season just to, like, feel different. Like, I just had to make sure that I was doing all the things that, that the industry expected of me. And whether that was talking how they talk or, um, or, or losing the weight that they wanted me to lose or, um, dressing the way or whatever it was. But the thing is, because I was raised in a very Christian upbringing and because I was raised with such, um, understanding of, uh, of my worth in, i- except for I wish my mom and dad would've talked to me about sex a lot more.

Jay Shetty 9:53 Mm.

Ashley Graham 9:53 I really do. Because, because I knew who I was, um, thank God I could stand up for myself, but because I didn't understand, um, sex and what it was to, to have worthiness over myself, that's where my downfall was. Because I didn't have a great relationship with my father, and in trying to fit in to this fashion world and not knowing who I was and people telling me, "Oh, you're not good enough. Oh, you need to lose weight. Oh, your hair is, oh, meh," or your eyes or whatever it was, your hip measurement. It

Ashley Graham 10:23 was like, oh, then I needed to go find my worth, and then I would go find my worth in food, I would find my worth in men, I would find my worth in gossip. And that's when I really realized at 18 years old that I was on this spiraling downfall of hating who I was. I was working. I was making great money. But when you're working and making great money but you feel really crappy about yourself, there's nothing that will bring you joy at all. So I called my mom, and I was like, "Mom, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm not, I don't wanna be a model. I wanna leave New York City. This is just something that has gotten to me." And she told me, and I swear to God, my mother is so prophetic, she said, "Ashley, your body is going to change someone's life, and you have to finish what you started." And I was like, "I have no idea what you're saying, lady, but I'm gonna listen, because we're supposed to listen to our mommies and daddies." [laughs] And she said, "I'm gonna come up to New York and I'm gonna spend some time with you," 'cause I was really just going through a hard time. And she told me, she's like, "Okay. You have to start going back to church." I was like, "What? I don't wanna go to church, Mom."

Jay Shetty 11:28 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 11:28 But, you know, you [laughs] when you're raised in that atmosphere and then your mom is like, okay, this was her rule, like, you only, I only had to go to five churches and one time and just to feel it out. And the first church I walked into, I saw three people that I had known from my church in Texas that I had, um, gone to, and it was like this, it was like a sign. It was like, wow, I see family in this church. So I started going to this church, and I finally, finally found, like, a, um, a community, and it was, like, outside of the modeling industry. It's, it's like I had my whole life wrapped up into these people who didn't know me, who didn't want me, because I wasn't fitting into an ideal. So then I started making friends outside of it all, and it's like I went back to my roots. I went back to who, who am I? And thank God I did, because it took me out of that nasty feeling of not feeling, feeling worthy. I stopped having sex. I was completely celibate after that. I, um, I I, I just, I started actually doing affirmations, and it was something that my mom talked to me about when I... I had no idea what they were. But she said, "Because, because we are Christian and we really reali- we, we really believe that words have power." And I know that this is, like, many people that believe this, but it's, like, one of the biggest lessons in the Bible. And so she broke it down for me, and she was like, "If you keep calling yourself ugly and fat and, and not worthy and all these things, then that's exactly what you're going to be."

Jay Shetty 13:02 Yes.

Ashley Graham 13:03 So she said, "Change your words."

Jay Shetty 13:05 Mm.

Ashley Graham 13:05 And that's what I had to do, and it really helped me as well. And it was something, the words that I made for myself were I am bold, I am brilliant, I am beautiful, I am worthy of all, I love you. And I love you was the hardest one of them all. And it wasn't like I just said these things and overnight it, like, bada bing, bada boom, like, oh, I'm a Miss Confidence.

Jay Shetty 13:25 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 13:26 It was really, it was inner work, it was outer work, it was dedication to knowing that I could change the directory of my future by having these words be my truth.

Jay Shetty 13:41 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 13:42 And having these words be my truth has now enabled me to tell my full story and have other people's stories come out and talk to them about what affirmations are.

Jay Shetty 13:53 Mm.

Ashley Graham 13:53 And, and, and w- how your words are really killing you. Um, so thank God for Mom.

Jay Shetty 13:59 Yes.

Ashley Graham 13:59 She really pulled me [laughs] out of a lot.

Jay Shetty 14:00 Amazing. Yeah.

Ashley Graham 14:01 It has been real- it was really great.

Jay Shetty 14:03 That's beautiful. What an incredible relationship to have.

Ashley Graham 14:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:05 That's awesome. And I, thank you for sharing so openly as well because I think so many of us start to validate ourselves through a partner-

Ashley Graham 14:14 Yes

Jay Shetty 14:15 ... right? Through men or women.

Ashley Graham 14:16 Yes.

Jay Shetty 14:16 Through food.

Ashley Graham 14:18 Yes.

Jay Shetty 14:18 We start to validate ourself through all these different ways, and we don't even know we're doing it.

Ashley Graham 14:22 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 14:22 And so to hear you say, I'm sure a lot peo- a lot of people listening and watching right now are gonna be like-

Ashley Graham 14:26 Oh, yeah

Jay Shetty 14:26 ... "God, I've done that, too."

Ashley Graham 14:27 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:28 And I was sharing just literally, you've, you've hit it for me two weeks ago when I was, uh, doing Red Table Talk with Jada. I talked about that, how I would find my validation in how I treated women.

Ashley Graham 14:38 Mm.

Jay Shetty 14:38 So it wasn't even what I got from them, it was just, like, if I could show off how amazing I was during my teens-

Ashley Graham 14:44 Mm

Jay Shetty 14:44 ... then that would make me feel more validated-

Ashley Graham 14:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 14:46 ... if they were impressed by me.

Ashley Graham 14:47 I know.

Jay Shetty 14:48 And, and I think we get lost in this web, and we're just weaving this web, and you're just getting more and more lost and trapped, and you don't even know.

Ashley Graham 14:55 And you feel so empty.

Jay Shetty 14:56 And you feel so empty. Even if you're externally successful and ticking all the boxes-

Ashley Graham 15:00 Doesn't matter

Jay Shetty 15:01 ... it doesn't matter. And, and the fact that you broke through it, because I do feel that, and I said this to you when we met, you've literally shifted an industry. Like, you, you have changed the industry from the way I view it and from the way I experience it and from the way so many other people experience it now. And I-

Ashley Graham 15:17 Thank you

Jay Shetty 15:17 ... and I mean that. And the fact that you've been able to go from a place where actually all of these things were forced upon you to you now having a really powerful voice-

Ashley Graham 15:26 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 15:27 ... right? Being able to share all these messages around it, I think that that's a transformation I'd love for you to walk us through.

Ashley Graham 15:32 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 15:32 Because I think that's the story of everyone. Like, your story is the story of everyone, maybe not as extreme-

Ashley Graham 15:38 Right

Jay Shetty 15:38 ... but everyone who feels like, yeah, you're not good enough. You're not gonna be able to do that. That's not possible, or it doesn't work like that, right? And then being able to break down. And I love the affirmation point you made. So let's start with that journey of transformation. I wanna hear about how you did the work, 'cause I know you have.

Ashley Graham 15:52 Oh, my God.

Jay Shetty 15:53 And, and it's like how do you get to the point of looking in the mirror and saying I love you and meaning it?

Ashley Graham 15:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 15:57 Because I agree. I love affirmations, too, but you have to feel it too.

Ashley Graham 16:00 You have to know-

Jay Shetty 16:01 Yeah

Ashley Graham 16:01 ... you have to know it in yourself, right? And it's one of those, it- it's- it's- it's really, it's a lot of inner work. And for me, understanding that quiet time in the morning and meditation and prayer is, like, so... It is, it is the thing that will get me through the day. I will wake up, I will feel terrible, I'll feel my mind will be foggy or whatever, but that quiet time in the morning, whatever you choose to do with it-

Jay Shetty 16:24 Yeah

Ashley Graham 16:24 ... that is your time. And, and it is so precious to me. So that has some- been something that has been a staple for me. Um, and, uh, the affirmations, I mean, I say them in the car. Before I walked up here, I was like-

Jay Shetty 16:38 Yes

Ashley Graham 16:38 ... I am bold, I am brilliant, I am beautiful.

Jay Shetty 16:40 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 16:40 I am worthy, and Jay and I are gonna have a great conversation. You know, it's like one of those-

Jay Shetty 16:44 Yeah, absolutely

Ashley Graham 16:45 ... it- it's just in me now, so I don't have to-

Jay Shetty 16:47 Yeah

Ashley Graham 16:47 ... recite it constantly. But-

Jay Shetty 16:49 Sure

Ashley Graham 16:49 ... everybody's affirmations are different. Just to wrap up the affirmations, but everybody's are different. And once you make yours and you say it, write it on your mirror, write it on a paper. Like, actually physically write it. Type it out if you love to type. Like, whatever those things are for you so that you can embody it. And they can change over time, too, which I think is very important.

Jay Shetty 17:05 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 17:06 Um, so as you were saying, like, that I have, y- your words, that I've changed an industry, it's hard to go back and be like, "When did it all begin?"

Jay Shetty 17:17 Yeah, I can imagine. [laughs]

Ashley Graham 17:19 [laughs] Because for me, I was just this, like, girl from Nebraska working my butt off just trying to, like, you know, sustain a $4,000 rental in Financial District. And I'm like, "This is what people pay?" Like, this is insa- I'm living in 800 square feet. This is not okay. This is why I moved to Brooklyn. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 17:40 [laughs] Smart.

Ashley Graham 17:42 Right.

Jay Shetty 17:43 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 17:44 Um, but it was, it was just, it was always such a heavy workload, and I didn't, I was just, I always felt like I was swimming upstream. And even as my worth developed and even as my s- my, my understanding of who I was and that my worth wasn't wrapped up in men, my worth wasn't wrapped up in, in food, it wasn't wrapped up in, in my career, I still struggled and wanted something more in my career. And I wanted to be able to make change

Ashley Graham 18:14 in a different way. And I think that where a lot of it began, where a lot of it began was I was in a commercial that was banned from television because of my size, because I was a lon- g- in lingerie, and a girl that was a size 16. I was 16 at the time. I'm a size 14 for all of you wondering.

Jay Shetty 18:37 [laughs] Everyone was asking anyway.

Ashley Graham 18:39 Oh my g- But people are s- always so just, you know-

Jay Shetty 18:41 Sure

Ashley Graham 18:41 ... wrap-

Jay Shetty 18:41 We're still addicted to numbers. Wrap that.

Ashley Graham 18:43 Gosh. Anyways, that's another conversation.

Jay Shetty 18:46 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 18:46 Anyways, so I was a size 16 girl in lingerie in this commercial, and I was, like, going to meet my boyfriend, and it was banned from TV. And that's really where kind of my career took, took, like, this trajectory of like, "Oh, there's this girl, and like maybe we wanna get to know her." And that is when I realized, "Okay, I have a voice. How do I use it? Oh, social media. Okay."

Jay Shetty 19:10 Mm.

Ashley Graham 19:10 "So I'm gonna use social media to just tell my truth. I don't know what's gonna happen." But it wasn't just me that wanted this change. It was so many people in the industry that were like, "We aren't just plus-size. We're women. Like, we wanna, we wanna have clothes that fit us. This isn't just about, um, skinny women being able to be dressed in cool clothes. This is about every woman being able to dress in being c- cool clothes." So I really used social, social media as a stepping stone in order to just have a voice. But I didn't know that that was going to be my biggest stepping stone.

Jay Shetty 19:44 Yes.

Ashley Graham 19:44 So I, I remember just, like, posting photos of myself in, in, um, swimsuits or lingerie and not retouching the cellulite out, shocking, and getting all kinds of women just saying like, "How brave of you."

Jay Shetty 19:59 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 19:59 Or, "How courageous that you would actually do something like that. I would never," or like, "Thank you for giving me the confidence to be able to do that." And, um, and, and I thought, "Okay, well, this is good. This is like, this is a thing." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 20:12 Yeah, it's real.

Ashley Graham 20:13 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:14 Yeah, people care.

Ashley Graham 20:14 Exactly. And then I realized that there was a mar- there was a hole in the market for lingerie, and that people were looking at me as a lingerie girl. They didn't know my name.

Jay Shetty 20:23 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 20:23 But they knew that I was a lingerie girl because of this commercial that was banned.

Jay Shetty 20:26 Yes.

Ashley Graham 20:26 So I was like, "Well, great, I'm gonna make lingerie for all of you then."

Jay Shetty 20:29 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 20:29 And because I could take a step back and look at where there was holes and where I could fill it at the time, because at the time I was 22 years, 22? Yeah, 23, 23 years old. Because I started also a lingerie line because I had been in the same position on the couch when my husband left for the house in the morning, and he came back that same night, and I was like literally just still watching Real Housewives.

Jay Shetty 20:52 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 20:53 And he's like, "Is this what you want with your life?"

Jay Shetty 20:55 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 20:55 And I, and I was like, "What do you mean?" He said, "Do you really just wanna be stuck in this kind of career, in this job, and doing this same thing?" And I thought, "I don't. I don't want that. What can I do?" And that's when I went and took a step back and made a vision board-

Jay Shetty 21:11 Mm

Ashley Graham 21:11 ... about who, who I wanna be, what do I want, and that's when the idea of the lingerie line came around. And, um, it's funny because people who have changed industries and people who have made such impacts in the world, I don't know that they've actually set out to do it.

Jay Shetty 21:28 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 21:28 I think it just happens.

Jay Shetty 21:29 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 21:32 And I've just taken every little, every little gap that, that has, that has, that I've seen in my industry, and I've tried to fill it. Because if I'm filling it with my voice, then that, then I know that I'm filling it with a voice that is s- like so many other people, who just wanna be included, who wanna have inclusivity, who don't wanna be called different because we are the norm.

Jay Shetty 21:54 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 21:55 And it's, it's just a conversation that I've had to keep having, but it's incredible the strides that have happened along with it.

Jay Shetty 22:01 Absolutely. For everyone who's listening and watching right now, Ashl- Ashley is gracefully sharing her story, and she didn't even point this out, but it's like you literally took your commercial getting banned from being on TV-

Ashley Graham 22:12 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 22:12 ... and turned that into something incredible. Which I love-

Ashley Graham 22:15 Thank you

Jay Shetty 22:15 ... because it's so easy for any of us to hit any roadblock, hit any barrier, hit a rejection, hit a no. For most of us, like if our book doesn't get picked up, or if your TV commercial gets banned, or if your movie never made it out of script, or whatever it is, or it didn't make it out of a pilot phase, a lot of us would be like, "Oh my God, my life's falling apart," like, "I'm not gonna make it," or, "I didn't get into the college I wanted," or, "I didn't get the promotion I wanted."

Ashley Graham 22:38 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 22:38 But you went and took that same thing-

Ashley Graham 22:40 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 22:40 ... and that actually led to the birth of your lingerie line.

Ashley Graham 22:43 Well, yes. And then that-

Jay Shetty 22:43 Which is just phenomenal. Like, I love that as just an example of how any situation can be the biggest blessing in the world.

Ashley Graham 22:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 22:51 Right?

Ashley Graham 22:51 I really, I think of nos as maybes.

Jay Shetty 22:54 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 22:54 And I, and I turn my maybes into yeses.

Jay Shetty 22:57 Right.

Ashley Graham 22:57 And I'm, I know that not just one person is gonna give me an answer, so there wasn't a door that I didn't knock on.

Jay Shetty 23:02 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 23:02 And I thank my parents all the time for instilling that hardworking ethic in me because it doesn't matter w- what you're doing in your career. You understand this. I understand this. You have to work your butt off.

Jay Shetty 23:14 Totally.

Ashley Graham 23:14 And, and you have to work your butt off even harder when you get to the top-

Jay Shetty 23:17 Yes

Ashley Graham 23:17 ... because then you wanna stay there. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 23:19 Yeah, absolutely, 100%. 100%.

Ashley Graham 23:21 So y- you think you're working hard now? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 23:24 Yeah. [laughs] It's true. It's true.

Ashley Graham 23:26 So, um, I, I, I don't know. I was just, I, I just think that that was a very pivotal moment, and then it all just kind of started spiraling into these great opportunities. Um, and also just being able, I did a TED Talk, which was like also very scary for me, very scary. But it enabled me to have a voice, and so many models were silenced. We're just told that, you know, "You're a pretty face. Be quiet." And, um-

Jay Shetty 23:53 That's crazy.

Ashley Graham 23:54 It is crazy

Jay Shetty 23:55 ... it, like, blows my mind.

Ashley Graham 23:56 I know. Because, I mean, we're people. Like, we have many opinions. We have many things that we're passionate about, and we wanna change the world. And, uh, I actually in my book, I, I wrote a chapter about when models talk.

Jay Shetty 24:08 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 24:08 And, uh, it's, it's really, it's interesting because I had started this group called Alda, and it was me and four other curvy girls who had been switching agencies. And we did it together because we knew if we went to a really big agency that did not have any curve models, we could really change the industry.

Jay Shetty 24:25 Wow.

Ashley Graham 24:26 And we made these business proposals, and we talked about how much money we each made, and how much money that the whole curve industry is making, and where, what the trajectory of the industry is. And we took it as like this business opportunity to really, to, to tell the, to tell the industry who we were, not just as the five of us, but like who we are as curvy women.

Jay Shetty 24:47 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 24:48 And they took, they listened, and, and sure enough, six years later, here we are. And the-

Jay Shetty 24:53 Oh my God.

Ashley Graham 24:53 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:53 I didn't know that part.

Ashley Graham 24:54 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:55 I love that.

Ashley Graham 24:55 You-

Jay Shetty 24:55 I'm so glad you're sharing that

Ashley Graham 24:56 ... you can't do it alone.

Jay Shetty 24:57 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 24:57 There's nothing you can do that you, that, that is only going to be you. There's teams that are behind people. There is mountains that are, that you have to climb over to get to these places, and you need people along the way to help you. And I always thank those girls, and we stay really close.

Jay Shetty 25:14 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 25:15 Um, but yeah

Jay Shetty 25:16 Yeah, no, I, I love that you brought up that point. I was sharing the other day that I feel like so many of us, when you're starting in a space, you look at everyone else as your competitor.

Ashley Graham 25:25 Right.

Jay Shetty 25:25 And you're like, "Okay, who's, who's winning in this space? What's my competitor analysis?"

Ashley Graham 25:28 Yes.

Jay Shetty 25:29 Right? Like, "Oh, she's number one. I'm number 10," or whatever it is.

Ashley Graham 25:31 Yes.

Jay Shetty 25:32 So actually what you've just shown is this beautiful example of collaboration, right? Collaborators and seeing everyone. And I remember when I first started making content, for me it was the same. I was looking at every content creator as someone I could potentially collaborate with.

Ashley Graham 25:44 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 25:44 And I would literally write to everyone and just be like, "Hey, I really believe that we need to share these messages. Why can't we support and share with each other?"

Ashley Graham 25:51 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 25:51 And a few years later, I've seen the growth of all these incredible other platforms.

Ashley Graham 25:55 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 25:56 And we all work together in the same way, so I love hearing that.

Ashley Graham 25:58 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 25:59 Because I think so often we feel alone, and we choose a lonely path when we don't need to.

Ashley Graham 26:04 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 26:05 Right?

Ashley Graham 26:06 No, it's so true, and especially in the fashion industry, everything is a competition.

Jay Shetty 26:09 Yes.

Ashley Graham 26:09 And it's about the Instagram-

Jay Shetty 26:11 Yes

Ashley Graham 26:11 ... followers, who's got covers, you know, who's in the campaigns, who's on the, who's on the runways. And it was, uh, really groundbreaking for people to see us all band together, and even the agencies were shook by it. They were like, "You told each other how much you make?"

Jay Shetty 26:24 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 26:24 Like, how dare you?

Jay Shetty 26:25 Exactly.

Ashley Graham 26:26 But we had to because we wanted to make sure that we were making the right decision.

Jay Shetty 26:29 Yeah. Uh, oh, go on. No.

Ashley Graham 26:31 No, it's okay.

Jay Shetty 26:32 No, go, go, go. [laughs]

Ashley Graham 26:32 It's okay. But I was gonna bring up another-

Jay Shetty 26:34 Yeah

Ashley Graham 26:34 ... um, great story in that even though I did that, I still had to learn another lesson a couple years later, um, where... Actually it was, it was a year prior. My bad. I'm getting my, my timeline all mixed up.

Jay Shetty 26:46 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 26:46 But there was a cover that I was up for, and it was Italian Vogue, and Italian Vogue in the fashion industry is like being on the cover of Forbes-

Jay Shetty 26:54 Right

Ashley Graham 26:54 ... in, in-

Jay Shetty 26:55 Yes

Ashley Graham 26:55 ... in our, in this side-

Jay Shetty 26:57 Yes, yes

Ashley Graham 26:57 ... of the world. Okay. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 26:58 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 26:59 And it is like, oh, the crème de la crème, and I was on hold to be on this job. And the night before I get the call, and they're like, "You didn't get confirmed, but three other brunettes did." And I was shook, and I thought, "Okay, there's a day two," and they told me that maybe I'll get into day two. The next night they called me. They were like, "Ashley, sorry, you didn't get it." And I, I, I honestly went and ate a bowl of pasta because, like, that was, like, my method of just, like, coping and healing. And, um, I said to my agent, I said, "Is this going to ruin my career? These three brunettes, like, they're gonna take over, and they're, they're gonna take every job that I've ever worked so hard to get." And he said, "Don't worry about it." Like, "You're my money maker. You're my star. Nothing will happen to you." Sure enough, when this cover came out, it was like, boom, I stopped working, and these other girls just started getting more and more jobs and more fame, like, whatever that was for them. And I was so pissed. I was pissed. I was angry. I was jealous. I... There was so many emotions that were going on in my mind, and there was nothing that I wouldn't, that I felt like I couldn't have done to get on that cover, but except for just be pissed at that point. And I had this probably three-day conversation with myself-

Jay Shetty 28:17 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 28:18 ... about what did it, what would it have meant to me to be on that cover. And I talked to myself through what the success of my feelings would've been, all of the, the, um, the highs, what jobs I would've gotten, all of that stuff. And then I said, "But it didn't happen."

Jay Shetty 28:34 Mm.

Ashley Graham 28:35 "It wasn't yours."

Jay Shetty 28:37 Mm.

Ashley Graham 28:37 And the moment that I could say that to myself and realize that that wasn't mine, and I forgave myself for getting so angry, it was like, poof, it was out of my mind. And I could just share it with other people, and it was more of, like, a funny thing and a life lesson in some senses. And, a- and then I, and now I can even talk about it today because it was, it was something that, uh, that had me so shaken up, but now I didn't need that cover.

Jay Shetty 29:08 Mm.

Ashley Graham 29:08 I didn't need that cover to get to the next stage because God works in mysterious ways where He gives you exactly what you can have and, or what you can handle in that moment.

Jay Shetty 29:16 Mm.

Ashley Graham 29:16 And I didn't need it, and He wanted to teach me a lesson on, on just being comfortable in my own space and not having it all.

Jay Shetty 29:24 Yes.

Ashley Graham 29:25 And I was really... I mean, it d- it took me a while to be okay with that.

Jay Shetty 29:28 Totally.

Ashley Graham 29:29 But, but now I look back, and I think, "God, wow, I'm so glad that I was able to handle the situation that I did."

Jay Shetty 29:34 Yeah. Thank you for sharing both human aspects.

Ashley Graham 29:38 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:38 Like, like, I'm glad, I'm glad that you told us about that side too.

Ashley Graham 29:41 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:42 And, and thank you for sharing both stories, like, the first story showing collaboration, community, coming together, but then actually sharing on the flip side, of course, we all wanna win. We all wanna do well.

Ashley Graham 29:53 Exactly.

Jay Shetty 29:54 And we will go through moments of feeling extremely angry, extremely upset, and I love that you said you had a three-day conversation with yourself-

Ashley Graham 30:00 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 30:01 ... which I think is awesome, by the way. Like, I think everyone should set more meetings with themselves on their calendar, right?

Ashley Graham 30:06 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 30:06 Like, our calendars are full of meetings with other people.

Ashley Graham 30:08 Oh.

Jay Shetty 30:08 Imagine you actually had a meeting that said, "Me."

Ashley Graham 30:10 Me. [laughs] I know.

Jay Shetty 30:11 Right? Like-

Ashley Graham 30:11 Oh, I should do that.

Jay Shetty 30:12 Yeah. We need, we need everyone to have a calendar on their-

Ashley Graham 30:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 30:15 ... yeah, a calendar moment that says, "Me, a meeting with myself." It's the most important meeting of the day.

Ashley Graham 30:19 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:19 And I just think that it's so awesome that you shared both sides with us because I, I do think it's human.

Ashley Graham 30:24 It's about balance.

Jay Shetty 30:25 Absolutely, and it's human to want to win and to succeed and to be ambitious.

Ashley Graham 30:30 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 30:30 How were you able from that point on then to, poof, it's all disappeared. You're not feeling that envy and that-

Ashley Graham 30:36 Right

Jay Shetty 30:36 ... pain anymore, but to pave a new path for yourself and to notice, as you said, in your words, God's plan of paving a new path-

Ashley Graham 30:43 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 30:43 ... and a new lesson for yourself. How were you then able to open up to that opportunity?

Ashley Graham 30:47 Well, I think then I just had tunnel vision and that I didn't have competition. It was just everything was about what am I doing-

Jay Shetty 30:54 Yeah

Ashley Graham 30:54 ... and what do I want to see. And it's been really great to be able to work with people, my team is incredible, um, and be able to come to them and say, "Okay, this is what I see that, that needs to happen in my career, but this is also what I see that needs to happen in the fashion industry, and w- how can we fill the void, and how can we fix things and change things?" And it's been really great to be able to work with designers like Prabal Gurung and Christian Siriano and Michael Kors and, and, uh, and just be able to, to have natural conversations about, like, what's really happening in the industry, but then also to have the confidence in myself to be able to do those things. And I think now is the time. People want that change, and the body positive, the body inclusivity, um, conversation has just, poof, blown up.

Jay Shetty 31:39 Yes.

Ashley Graham 31:39 And, um, and, and now Now, more than ever, we're seeing women, uh, and men, honestly, which has been really cool, of all shapes, sizes, ages, colors, um, I mean, name the gamut. It's like i- inclusivity is, like, really where it's at.

Jay Shetty 31:56 Yes.

Ashley Graham 31:56 Um, but staying true to who you are is easy when you know who you are. And I think that I'm 31, and through my 20s, I had to really get to know myself, and I had a lot of, like, what felt like maybe carpal tunnel because I was just writing a lot about journaling about who I wanted to be, who, what my goals were, and, and all these different things. And, and, and I, when I look back at those journals, I laugh because I feel like I was so immature.

Jay Shetty 32:29 Mm.

Ashley Graham 32:29 Like, I really, like, wanted such little things. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 32:32 [laughs] Oh, so very true. Yeah.

Ashley Graham 32:35 Like, I, I really... Like, I look and I think, "Wow, I was so close-minded," but I'm so glad that I have that proof to myself how much I've grown.

Jay Shetty 32:44 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 32:44 And, and it's, it's, it's nice to look at the fashion industry and say, like, "Wow, things are really moving," and then be able to look back at the journals and be like, "Wow, I..." I mean, it, it's just incredible to see, like, the maturity of, like, everything all at once. Um, so, uh, yeah, I, I think that just really knowing who you are and getting to know yourself is really key in whatever industry that you're in-

Jay Shetty 33:07 Mm

Ashley Graham 33:07 ... and whatever mountain you're trying to move.

Jay Shetty 33:09 Yeah, absolutely. So well said. So well said. And I think one of the things that you're really raising that's important to me here is this principle of we think we have the grandest and biggest plans for ourselves, and then the universe, God-

Ashley Graham 33:22 Yeah

Jay Shetty 33:22 ... whatever, whatever you wanna call it, comes and gives you something way bigger-

Ashley Graham 33:26 Way bigger

Jay Shetty 33:27 ... and you just had to stay on that path. And every delay really has a blessing.

Ashley Graham 33:30 Yep.

Jay Shetty 33:31 But you've just gotta be able to wait-

Ashley Graham 33:32 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 33:32 ... and be patient and consistently keep pushing and working.

Ashley Graham 33:35 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 33:36 And I, and I think so many people just get off the path-

Ashley Graham 33:38 Yeah

Jay Shetty 33:38 ... before you're actually revealed that, hey, wait a minute, like, your, your ideas were good, but they were much smaller, and there's better things in store.

Ashley Graham 33:44 You have to believe in yourself.

Jay Shetty 33:45 Yeah, you have to believe it. No, I love that. And, and you're so right. If you don't know who you are, you can't keep hold of that. And you've had your fair share of the negative comments too. Like, when you, when you posted your, you know, when you started to post more transparent, authentic images of yourself, and I love how you have this thing called teachable moment-

Ashley Graham 34:04 Yes. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 34:04 ... for your haters. And I want you to tell our audience about it because I think so many of us, like, you don't have to be a supermodel or an influencer or a creator to be worried about trolls and negative comments. Everyone gets them.

Ashley Graham 34:16 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 34:16 Whether you get one or you get 1,000 or you get 100,000-

Ashley Graham 34:18 Oh, yeah

Jay Shetty 34:18 ... and we all get them. So tell us about these teachable moments. I love it.

Ashley Graham 34:21 So, so for me, I think the natural p- like, human reaction would be, like, just to have anger back.

Jay Shetty 34:28 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 34:28 And, and, you know, what good would that do? You know?

Jay Shetty 34:31 No.

Ashley Graham 34:31 It's not gonna do anything for, for me or for the person receiving it. So I always like to think of it as, like you s- like you said, like you quoted me already-

Jay Shetty 34:40 Yeah

Ashley Graham 34:40 ... a teachable moment. Because not everybody understands where you're coming from. Not everybody understands why you're posting a photo that you are or whatever. So if somebody wants to write something very ignorant like, "Stop making fat look cool, you're gonna kill somebody," then I can write a message back-

Jay Shetty 34:56 Oh

Ashley Graham 34:56 ... saying that, "Well, first of all, fat is necessary for our body, like, in order to live. And thirdly, I'm not making, um, fat, fat also can be cool, and if you wanna call me fat, great, I'm not offended by that word." You know, and, and just having this, like, conversation and, like, break down what that person actually said because a lot of times that person behind the, the keyboard is already so broken. We know this.

Jay Shetty 35:19 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 35:20 But I also like to have these teachable moments, um, like that for the younger generation that's watching-

Jay Shetty 35:28 Mm

Ashley Graham 35:28 ... because I want them to know you can stand up for yourself, and you can do it in a polite way.

Jay Shetty 35:33 Yes.

Ashley Graham 35:33 You don't have to say, you know, something negative and ugly back. You can say, "Oh, thank you so much for, you know, identifying the fact that my cellulite is out today. Thank you so much."

Jay Shetty 35:45 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 35:45 And it's just like, who cares?

Jay Shetty 35:47 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 35:48 Uh, but that's also, you know, it, in this generation of Instagram, I'm so glad I wasn't raised in-

Jay Shetty 35:55 Right

Ashley Graham 35:55 ... in, in so young in that world because there's so much wrapped up in a double tap. There's so much wrapped up in a comment. There's so much wrapped up in, in the followers. And I, I always, I don't care how many likes I get. Like, that to me doesn't ever bother me. I just always wanna make sure that I'm replying to some of my DMs and my comments-

Jay Shetty 36:15 Mm

Ashley Graham 36:15 ... to make people know that, like, "Hey, I see you."

Jay Shetty 36:18 Yes.

Ashley Graham 36:18 Like, that's all that matters. And, um, and if they see that I've, uh, quote, "clapped back" in a teachable way, then so be it because I think that that's how we should be clapping back.

Jay Shetty 36:28 Yeah, absolutely. And, and I, and I think you do that in an awesome way. Tell me how-

Ashley Graham 36:32 Wait, what are c- what are negative comments that you get?

Jay Shetty 36:34 Negative comments that I get?

Ashley Graham 36:35 Yeah, 'cause you're not showing your cellulite.

Jay Shetty 36:37 Okay, no, no.

Ashley Graham 36:38 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 36:38 Uh, I'll tell you one of the first ones I got, which I'll never forget because it was genius. I thought it was hilarious. So it said, like, "I bet he has a wind blowing machine for his hair to fly like that in the video."

Ashley Graham 36:48 Oh my God.

Jay Shetty 36:48 So, like, someone literally accused me of, like, b- and I was like, "Wow, that's such a good idea."

Ashley Graham 36:52 That is-

Jay Shetty 36:52 But I was just outside on... That was when I fir- that was, like, one of the first videos I made. I didn't have a team. It was one guy with his camera and me. It was a super windy day in London.

Ashley Graham 37:01 Oh.

Jay Shetty 37:01 And I'm sitting on the, on this rooftop and the, and, uh, literally my hair's flying.

Ashley Graham 37:04 But the sound was really good, right?

Jay Shetty 37:05 The sound was really good.

Ashley Graham 37:06 I saw that interview.

Jay Shetty 37:07 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 37:07 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 37:07 And, and it's just like, yeah, the s- so, so that was one of them that I got. I think, so that's something common I get-

Ashley Graham 37:13 Yeah

Jay Shetty 37:13 ... is something based on, again, it's always physical. A lot of it's physical.

Ashley Graham 37:16 Exactly. Exactly.

Jay Shetty 37:16 And, and I'm like, "Okay, I can laugh at that."

Ashley Graham 37:18 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 37:18 "That's f- that's funny. That's cool." And then often I'll get things like, "Oh, well, it's easy to say," and then again, that's a teachable moment too. And I'm like, "Yes, I know it's easy to say. I get it that you're really going through it."

Ashley Graham 37:28 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 37:28 But this is at least opening the conversation.

Ashley Graham 37:30 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 37:30 Like, how much can I share with you in a three- to four-minute video?

Ashley Graham 37:33 Exactly.

Jay Shetty 37:34 I'm, I'm trying my best here, and that's why this podcast, conversations like this are beautiful opportunities where we're really diving into so many of these themes in depth-

Ashley Graham 37:42 Yes

Jay Shetty 37:43 ... with, with someone like yourself who's going through it in an extreme way.

Ashley Graham 37:45 Yes.

Jay Shetty 37:46 And so for me, the three to four-minute videos have been windows- For people to come into a bigger, deeper conversation. And so I'm open about the fact that I can't answer everyone's problems in four minutes.

Ashley Graham 37:56 Right.

Jay Shetty 37:56 And I'm not trying to either.

Ashley Graham 37:58 Right.

Jay Shetty 37:58 I'm just trying to start a conversation, and that's what my videos were about. It's how do we start a conversation about these themes? I believed, when I started Making Contact, I believed that people are having these conversations offline-

Ashley Graham 38:09 Yeah

Jay Shetty 38:09 ... in their personal circles-

Ashley Graham 38:11 Of course they are

Jay Shetty 38:11 ... or on their own, but no one was having them online.

Ashley Graham 38:13 Right.

Jay Shetty 38:14 And so I was like, how can we urge and encourage more people to feel comfortable and confident to have them?

Ashley Graham 38:18 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 38:19 So yeah, I ge- I get those.

Ashley Graham 38:20 So hey, haters.

Jay Shetty 38:21 Hey, haters.

Ashley Graham 38:22 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 38:22 Yeah. Hey, haters. Teachable moments. I love it. But, but one of the things I really want to ask you this, and this is something I ask a lot of people whose industry or career is based on an external accolade or, or award. In, in your case for example, getting a magazine cover, like you said, Italian Vogue.

Ashley Graham 38:37 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 38:37 Getting a magazine cover is a big deal.

Ashley Graham 38:40 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 38:40 Right? For a model, it's huge. I mean, that's kind of proving, like, progress in one sense. How have you stayed in love with the process and motivated every day rather than waiting for that release of a cover to validate how you feel about your career and yourself? Because, because I think everyone today has this, you know, balance between, like, process and result, process and result.

Ashley Graham 39:03 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 39:04 And I'm just... I'm asking that to a lot of people at the moment. I just think yours would be an incredible answer to have because your career is based around an external validation in this one sense.

Ashley Graham 39:14 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So the, the question is-

Jay Shetty 39:16 Is

Ashley Graham 39:16 ... about, like, how do I, how do I... Oh, wait, what were you gonna say?

Jay Shetty 39:19 Yeah, no, no. I can explain it if, but you can repeat it.

Ashley Graham 39:21 No, but it, it, it's about, like, the process of getting to that cover and then-

Jay Shetty 39:25 Like, how are you-

Ashley Graham 39:26 ... getting it or not

Jay Shetty 39:26 ... when I meet you, and of course I'm meeting you at a time when you have made shifts, you are very successful, et cetera, but still I, I see you as someone who's happy.

Ashley Graham 39:36 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 39:36 I see you as someone who's content. I see you as someone who's excited-

Ashley Graham 39:39 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 39:39 ... and bubbly and, you know, I see all these good qualities in you, and I'm guessing that you don't live for the cover.

Ashley Graham 39:46 Right.

Jay Shetty 39:46 I'm guessing that you love life every day.

Ashley Graham 39:48 Right.

Jay Shetty 39:48 I'm guessing.

Ashley Graham 39:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 39:48 I'm assuming that.

Ashley Graham 39:49 Right.

Jay Shetty 39:49 And if that's true, then it's like how have you fallen in love with the process of getting to the cover and not living for the cover in and of itself?

Ashley Graham 39:57 I see.

Jay Shetty 39:57 Does that make sense?

Ashley Graham 39:58 100%.

Jay Shetty 39:59 Yeah? Yeah.

Ashley Graham 39:59 100%. So if you wrap your... For me, I haven't, I can't wrap myself up with, of my worth in my work.

Jay Shetty 40:07 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 40:07 Because if you wrap yourself up in your worth of anything, you're going, you're going to completely fail at it.

Jay Shetty 40:14 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 40:14 And that's like wrapping yourself up in a relationship

Ashley Graham 40:17 or, um, uh, I mean, eh, literally anything. So I have been, I have made this conscious decision to be 100% comfortable and confident in who I am as Ashley and not have the world tell me who I am, but know who I am because of how I know God made me, because I know what comes out of my mouth, because I know what I s- I look at, 'cause I know what I do on a daily basis, with the tangible things that I am able to do. And there are so many covers that have not come. There are so many jobs that I, I wish have and, and would, would and will, um, that have not, but I'm not wrapped up in that because I know what I'm doing is making a change in the world that I'm living in today.

Jay Shetty 41:05 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 41:05 And, um, and I think that if I were to be so wrapped up in the, the actual process, then I would be living in high anxiety every day.

Jay Shetty 41:14 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 41:14 And I choose not to live in anxiety.

Jay Shetty 41:16 Yeah. I love that answer. That's awesome, because that's something no one can ever take away from you.

Ashley Graham 41:19 Ever. You can't.

Jay Shetty 41:20 That's, that's something-

Ashley Graham 41:21 Nobody can

Jay Shetty 41:21 ... that can never be taken away. Yeah.

Ashley Graham 41:22 Yeah, exactly.

Jay Shetty 41:23 Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. I just, I've been thinking about that a lot, especially with so many people's lives today that revolve around a cover or a movie or an-

Ashley Graham 41:31 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 41:31 ... event or a promotion. It's always about this result, result, result. It's amazing.

Ashley Graham 41:34 But it's hard to get to that place.

Jay Shetty 41:35 It is.

Ashley Graham 41:36 Especially in an industry that is so wrapped up in what you do have and what people see on social media, and, um, and it's hard to teach the next generation that as well because everything is about, like, the look and the glam and the, the, and, and, like, the behind the scenes, and, like, on a- and also just, like, showing literally everything and not have anything sacred. And, uh, you know, none of that bothers me, none of that affects me because I know who I am and I know what my mission is, and-

Jay Shetty 42:04 Yeah

Ashley Graham 42:05 ... I think it's important.

Jay Shetty 42:06 Absolutely. I love how that message keeps coming back through everything you say, which just shows how-

Ashley Graham 42:11 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 42:11 ... how crystal clear it is. It's awesome. You mentioned then, we spoke about this at lunch, about your relationship.

Ashley Graham 42:16 Yes.

Jay Shetty 42:16 You're married for nine years?

Ashley Graham 42:17 Nine years in August.

Jay Shetty 42:18 Nine years, which is amazing. Congratulations.

Ashley Graham 42:20 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 42:21 That's awesome. I love that. I've been married for-

Ashley Graham 42:22 Every year is a journey.

Jay Shetty 42:24 Absolutely.

Ashley Graham 42:24 Year three?

Jay Shetty 42:25 I've been married for three. Together with my wife, for six, so.

Ashley Graham 42:27 Okay, got it.

Jay Shetty 42:27 Yeah, we've been married for three.

Ashley Graham 42:29 Did it feel different after you got married?

Jay Shetty 42:31 It did. It felt better.

Ashley Graham 42:32 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 42:32 I actually loved getting married. It was amazing.

Ashley Graham 42:35 Aw.

Jay Shetty 42:35 Like, I think it just, yeah, it was one of the best decisions I ever made, and I was-

Ashley Graham 42:40 Yeah

Jay Shetty 42:40 ... I was always li- I always say this to everyone, I'm like, "I'm, I upgraded totally."

Ashley Graham 42:43 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 42:43 Like, my wife's awesome.

Ashley Graham 42:44 Aw. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 42:44 And that's a good feeling too, like, you know, you, you did better than you could [laughs] than you really could have.

Ashley Graham 42:48 She's beautiful. I can't wait to meet her.

Jay Shetty 42:49 She's, she's awesome. She's just great energy. She's lovely to be around, and she's just, she's just a wonderful soul, so... And I can't wait to meet your husband too.

Ashley Graham 42:56 Yeah. We'll do double date.

Jay Shetty 42:57 Uh, but, but I was gonna ask this because my audience loves relationship advice.

Ashley Graham 43:01 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 43:01 Loves learning about love, loves learning about understanding yourself in a relationship with another partner.

Ashley Graham 43:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 43:08 I'd love to hear some of the most incredible lessons you've learned in your nine years of marriage-

Ashley Graham 43:13 Yes

Jay Shetty 43:13 ... uh, from your partner and from that partnership.

Ashley Graham 43:16 Well, something that I've realized with Justin is that consistency is key, and the more consistent you are with your partner, the more trust you're gonna build with them. Um, and I think that also putting them first, because when you're in a relationship, it's not about you anymore. It's about that other person. And, um, and that's something that, you know, being, I got married at 22, and I had to learn [laughs] that lesson because at 22 you're kind of selfish. [laughs] And Justin is so patient. Oh my, I never knew patience until I met Justin.

Jay Shetty 43:51 Wow.

Ashley Graham 43:52 Like, it is... He is the definition of patience.

Jay Shetty 43:55 That's awesome.

Ashley Graham 43:56 So I, I, I really had to understand what it was to put Justin before myself and, and, and I think that the more I put him in front of me, the more love... And, and, and vice versa, the more that he puts me in front of him-

Jay Shetty 44:10 Mm

Ashley Graham 44:10 ... our love has really grown, and then we've just been consistent with that.

Jay Shetty 44:14 Wow. Consistency. Yeah.

Ashley Graham 44:15 It's a big thing.

Jay Shetty 44:15 Which is so underrated.

Ashley Graham 44:17 It's so under- But, you know-

Jay Shetty 44:18 Yeah

Ashley Graham 44:18 ... the reason I even, like, started to fall in love with Justin is because he was consistent. He was the only guy that I had ever dated that was actually consistent with what, putting what he said into action.

Jay Shetty 44:28 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 44:28 And his actions and his words. And how he was consistently calling me and dating me and relating to me. Like, he is such a consistent man that it, that's really truly what I fell in love with.

Jay Shetty 44:40 What a beautiful quality to look out for.

Ashley Graham 44:42 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 44:42 And that's so, I- for anyone who's listening or watching right now, you'll never find that in a clickbait article.

Ashley Graham 44:47 Oh.

Jay Shetty 44:47 Just so you know that, like, consistency, it's such a great q- value to look for.

Ashley Graham 44:52 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 44:52 And we all know that you'll only be happy in life if what you think, say, and do are aligned.

Ashley Graham 44:57 Yep.

Jay Shetty 44:57 And you'll only feel peace, and similarly with your partner-

Ashley Graham 45:00 Mm

Jay Shetty 45:00 ... if you're with someone who thinks, says, and does, and that's aligned for them, too.

Ashley Graham 45:04 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 45:05 That's brilliant. That's, that's such a great, unique... I've never heard that.

Ashley Graham 45:08 Okay.

Jay Shetty 45:08 I've never heard anyone say that. Yeah, that's awesome.

Ashley Graham 45:09 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 45:09 No, I d- I just think that we struggle today to think about what we want in someone.

Ashley Graham 45:14 Oh.

Jay Shetty 45:14 Again, like what you said, if you don't know who you are, similarly what we want, what we want is based on the movies we watch.

Ashley Graham 45:19 Mm.

Jay Shetty 45:19 What we want is based on the music videos.

Ashley Graham 45:21 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 45:21 What we want is based on what our parents had or didn't have.

Ashley Graham 45:24 Right.

Jay Shetty 45:24 Right? So many of our beliefs-

Ashley Graham 45:26 Filling that void

Jay Shetty 45:26 ... around relationships-

Ashley Graham 45:27 Totally

Jay Shetty 45:28 ... are filling that void.

Ashley Graham 45:29 I wrote down a list of things that I wanted-

Jay Shetty 45:31 Okay

Ashley Graham 45:31 ... in a man, and I was like, and it was, like, my top 10. I wrote it down, I folded it up, put it in a box, and then like poof, a year later I got it. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 45:40 No way. Okay.

Ashley Graham 45:40 That's not weird. Write it down.

Jay Shetty 45:42 [laughs] Okay.

Ashley Graham 45:43 It's a real thing.

Jay Shetty 45:44 Okay.

Ashley Graham 45:44 But I didn't write down consistency. He just came with that.

Jay Shetty 45:47 Oh, okay.

Ashley Graham 45:47 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 45:47 Oh, wow, that was just a bonus. And then did you take this to all your dates? And were you like under the table like, "Check."

Ashley Graham 45:52 Can you imagine?

Jay Shetty 45:53 Like, no.

Ashley Graham 45:53 No. Thank God.

Jay Shetty 45:54 [laughs] Did-

Ashley Graham 45:55 [laughs] My mom when she was dating, um, she definitely had this guy share his list with her. And h- he had-

Jay Shetty 46:02 He had a list

Ashley Graham 46:03 ... he had a list.

Jay Shetty 46:03 Of the woman he was looking.

Ashley Graham 46:04 He had a list and he crossed out long hair and put loyal instead.

Jay Shetty 46:07 Oh. [laughs]

Ashley Graham 46:09 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 46:10 That's awesome. I love how they're in the same category as well.

Ashley Graham 46:13 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 46:13 It's like long hair and loyal. That is brilliant. I picked out two of the most asked questions about relationships-

Ashley Graham 46:19 Okay

Jay Shetty 46:19 ... this year on the internet from Google.

Ashley Graham 46:20 Okay.

Jay Shetty 46:20 So I wanna ask them to you.

Ashley Graham 46:21 All right.

Jay Shetty 46:21 So they are, the first one is what does a healthy relationship look like? That's one of the most Googled things about relationships.

Ashley Graham 46:27 Oh, that's so funny.

Jay Shetty 46:28 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 46:28 With the... Okay. Um, most healthy relat- Uh, well-

Jay Shetty 46:31 Just your opinion. Your opinion.

Ashley Graham 46:32 No, I, I, yeah, no, I, I think it's a good question because I think a lot of people want to be in healthy relationships. And for me, I think that when you and your partner are making each other better, you know that song, "You make me better"?

Jay Shetty 46:42 Yeah. Yeah.

Ashley Graham 46:43 Like, that's real, 'cause if you're making-

Jay Shetty 46:45 Fabulous, Ne-Yo.

Ashley Graham 46:46 There we go.

Jay Shetty 46:47 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ashley Graham 46:48 Hey.

Jay Shetty 46:48 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's put background.

Ashley Graham 46:49 Early 2000s.

Jay Shetty 46:49 Yeah, yeah.

Ashley Graham 46:50 Um-

Jay Shetty 46:50 We're, we're the same age.

Ashley Graham 46:51 I know. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 46:52 So, yeah.

Ashley Graham 46:53 But I think that when you're making each other better and you can put each other first, and then at the end of it you can both adore each other-

Jay Shetty 47:00 Mm

Ashley Graham 47:00 ... like, that to me is a perfect relationship, because you've in a sense got it all.

Jay Shetty 47:05 Yeah. I love that. Great answer. And, and we'll play that song some more as well.

Ashley Graham 47:09 Yes. You make me better.

Jay Shetty 47:10 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 47:10 And you gotta grind a little bit like...

Jay Shetty 47:12 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 47:12 Uh, uh. [laughs] Grind on your partner.

Jay Shetty 47:16 Oh, my God. [laughs]

Ashley Graham 47:17 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 47:18 All right, I'm, I'm just thinking of Fabulous and Ne-Yo grinding each other.

Ashley Graham 47:20 No, no. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 47:21 Which is not... No. No.

Ashley Graham 47:22 I mean, you never know. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 47:23 Maybe, yeah. Um, sorry Fabulous and Ne-Yo, I don't know either of you, but-

Ashley Graham 47:27 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 47:27 ... not, we're not putting that on you. Uh, the second most Googled question was how can you build trust in a relationship?

Ashley Graham 47:33 Consistency.

Jay Shetty 47:35 Okay. Yeah.

Ashley Graham 47:35 Oh, my gosh. I mean, f- I think trust in a relationship is something that, um, that is built over time but that, you know, you talked about how, like, your actions, your words, and, and what was the other thing?

Jay Shetty 47:49 Your thoughts.

Ashley Graham 47:49 Your thoughts all have to line up.

Jay Shetty 47:50 Mm.

Ashley Graham 47:51 But f- what I've always understood is that if your action, your actions will always speak louder than your words.

Jay Shetty 47:56 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 47:57 And you can say that you wanna do something and not actually do it.

Jay Shetty 48:01 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 48:01 So if you're doing what you're saying and you're staying consistent with that, then you're definitely gonna build trust.

Jay Shetty 48:06 100%.

Ashley Graham 48:07 Like, that's it. Like, it, my husband and I trust each other so incredibly that it's like we, sometimes we don't see each other for a couple weeks and it's, you know, we do a quick check-in text message every day, 'cause that's a rule of ours. But, but that's it. Like, 'cause we just trust each other.

Jay Shetty 48:21 Yes, absolutely. Yeah, love is a verb, not a noun.

Ashley Graham 48:23 Yes.

Jay Shetty 48:24 Right?

Ashley Graham 48:24 That's very true.

Jay Shetty 48:24 You have to show it, and that's why I think so many people get lost, because you can have an abusive relationship where someone says, "I love you."

Ashley Graham 48:30 Mm. Mm.

Jay Shetty 48:30 Because we think love is a noun.

Ashley Graham 48:31 Mm. Been there, done that.

Jay Shetty 48:32 I think as long as you hear love, but you don't feel it, and then you can be in a, a relationship that's, you know, ownership. Like, it doesn't, it's not a partnership, it's ownership. Like, someone feels like they own you.

Ashley Graham 48:43 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 48:44 But they say, "I love you."

Ashley Graham 48:44 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 48:45 And again, but when you realize that love is a verb, you can then very quickly judge-

Ashley Graham 48:49 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 48:49 ... whether someone actually loves you or not. And-

Ashley Graham 48:52 Love is a verb, y'all

Jay Shetty 48:53 ... yes. Love is a verb, not a noun. It's so easy to get lost in just being, hearing the right stuff. And if we've never heard it before, it sounds intoxicating, right? It's amazing. It's such a wonderful feeling to hear that you're loved even if you're not feeling it. Uh, and, and I love that way that you're talking about how actions are louder than words ultimately as well. That's same point being made there. I love that. And then the third question I had about that was what's the best relationship advice you've ever received, and who was it from? I know you'll probably say your mom, so... No, it's not this time. Okay.

Ashley Graham 49:24 No. I mean- I, sadly, my mom and dad's relationship only lasted 26 years, and I think she learned a lot.

Jay Shetty 49:31 Wow.

Ashley Graham 49:31 I learned a lot from her divorce as well. But, um, my grandmother actually told me-

Jay Shetty 49:36 Yeah

Ashley Graham 49:36 ... when I got married, she goes, "Ashley, choose your battles. Not everything has to be a fight, and not everything should be a fight. So if you feel that this is a disagreement, don't make it into a battle. Just handle it right then and there."

Jay Shetty 49:49 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 49:49 And that's what I choose to do now. Justin and I don't even fight. It's like, and if we do, we're just like, "This is what I think." "No, this is what I think." Well, are we gonna choose to disagree, or are we gonna actually get down to the nitty-gritty of it?

Jay Shetty 49:59 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 49:59 Okay, great. Done. And we don't go to bed mad at each other.

Jay Shetty 50:02 Yes.

Ashley Graham 50:02 Have you ever gone ba- to bed mad at your wife?

Jay Shetty 50:04 No.

Ashley Graham 50:05 Okay, good.

Jay Shetty 50:05 We, that's one of our rules too.

Ashley Graham 50:06 Yes, it is, like, the biggest mistake of your life if you do.

Jay Shetty 50:09 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 50:09 Because you t- you sleep terribly. You wake up in the morning, you're just like pissed off at everything. And then you have to f- it takes all day to fix it because you've slept on it all night. Don't go to bed mad at each other, people. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 50:21 Yeah, no, it's great advice.

Ashley Graham 50:22 It really sucks.

Jay Shetty 50:22 And, and I love that you said this. Rules. Like you said, one of our rules is-

Ashley Graham 50:27 Yes

Jay Shetty 50:27 ... when we're away from each other, we message each other every-

Ashley Graham 50:28 Yeah

Jay Shetty 50:29 ... I mean-

Ashley Graham 50:29 We have a few rules.

Jay Shetty 50:30 I'd love to hear them.

Ashley Graham 50:31 Yes.

Jay Shetty 50:31 Yeah, please share.

Ashley Graham 50:31 There's that.

Jay Shetty 50:32 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 50:32 We have to check in at least once a day.

Jay Shetty 50:34 Yes.

Ashley Graham 50:34 We don't go longer than s- uh, without, we don't go longer than two weeks without seeing each other.

Jay Shetty 50:38 Amazing.

Ashley Graham 50:38 'Cause that's, like, for us, it's like the, the breaking point.

Jay Shetty 50:42 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 50:42 Um, and we always respect each other, even in a fight.

Jay Shetty 50:46 Mm.

Ashley Graham 50:46 If it's, if there's, if there's a fight that breaks out, it doesn't matter. We have to respect each other.

Jay Shetty 50:50 I love that.

Ashley Graham 50:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 50:51 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 50:51 Don't feel like you have to hurry up. It's fine.

Jay Shetty 50:52 No, no, no, I'm just-

Ashley Graham 50:53 Okay

Jay Shetty 50:53 ... I'm just watching the time. I need to be careful. You're like, yeah. But no, no, I think that's an awesome answer. I, I love rules. I think rules are really, really important, and people feel rules ruin the spontaneity, but actually it doesn't.

Ashley Graham 51:04 No, it doesn't.

Jay Shetty 51:05 Yeah, like-

Ashley Graham 51:05 You can still have spont- spontaneous sex.

Jay Shetty 51:07 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 51:07 We're not talking about that. Like, just make rules for, and regulations within, like, the time that you spend together or how you treat each other, like-

Jay Shetty 51:14 How you communicate.

Ashley Graham 51:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:15 How often you communicate.

Ashley Graham 51:17 Exactly.

Jay Shetty 51:17 Just set standards.

Ashley Graham 51:18 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 51:18 Right? Setting standards so that no one's let down. And I think a lot of us, we think that spontaneity and dynamism is lost with rules, but actually, rules just enhance that.

Ashley Graham 51:28 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 51:28 It gives you more opportunity to have those.

Ashley Graham 51:30 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 51:31 And I've definitely seen that in so many relationships that don't have rules-

Ashley Graham 51:34 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 51:34 ... that actually just start losing standards, and then people end up settling-

Ashley Graham 51:37 I know. It's bad

Jay Shetty 51:38 ... or lowering their standards, and then it's lost.

Ashley Graham 51:40 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:40 So-

Ashley Graham 51:41 Don't lower your standards.

Jay Shetty 51:41 Yeah, don't lower your standards. Abso-

Ashley Graham 51:43 It's not worth it.

Jay Shetty 51:44 No, definitely. It's so easy to settle in relationships.

Ashley Graham 51:47 It is.

Jay Shetty 51:47 It's really, really easy to just-

Ashley Graham 51:48 Been there, done that.

Jay Shetty 51:50 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 51:50 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 51:50 Yeah, and, and we lower our standards when we're lonely as well.

Ashley Graham 51:53 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:53 Like, I see that a lot today, that I see friends who see all their friends are in a relationship, and then you want a relationship because your friends are in one.

Ashley Graham 52:00 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 52:00 And so loneliness becomes your metric of why you want someone in your life.

Ashley Graham 52:04 Then you're just like a serial dater.

Jay Shetty 52:06 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 52:06 Or serial sleeper around-er.

Jay Shetty 52:08 Exactly, exactly. And what you said about arguments is so important. There's this incredible study by John Gottman.

Ashley Graham 52:13 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 52:14 And John Gottman and his wife, I don't know how long they've been married, but they're very, very, very old. And I, I literally got to see them at a conference we were speaking at, and I, I fan-girled over them because I love their research.

Ashley Graham 52:25 Aw.

Jay Shetty 52:25 And, and they're both so adorable together. But their research from the Gottman Institute talks about how the number one skill that keeps relationships together is not date nights, it's not cruises, it's not holidays. It's knowing how to fight.

Ashley Graham 52:40 Oh, wow.

Jay Shetty 52:40 Like, that's the number one skill that keeps a relationship together long-term.

Ashley Graham 52:44 Wow.

Jay Shetty 52:44 So what you just said there-

Ashley Graham 52:45 [gasps]

Jay Shetty 52:46 ... it's like knowing how to fight. And I, I know we talk a lot about the love languages, but something I've been playing around with a lot recently is the five fight languages. Like, we all-

Ashley Graham 52:53 What are they? What are the five fight languages?

Jay Shetty 52:54 So, so we all fight differently. Like, so there are some of us in a fight situation who go quiet.

Ashley Graham 53:00 [gasps]

Jay Shetty 53:00 And we just need to retreat, and we need to hide away, and we need to process our thoughts. Then there's another language where it's like, "I need to talk this out right now. Like, this is it. Like, we need to have this conversation." I d- which one are you out of those two so far? Or you're neither of these so far?

Ashley Graham 53:14 I'm like both.

Jay Shetty 53:15 Okay, you're both. Fine.

Ashley Graham 53:16 It's just really depending on what it is.

Jay Shetty 53:17 Okay, you're both. And then, and then a third fight language is the language of I need to consult someone.

Ashley Graham 53:22 Oh.

Jay Shetty 53:22 So people are like-

Ashley Graham 53:23 See, I don't like to bring other people into my drama.

Jay Shetty 53:24 Neither do I.

Ashley Graham 53:25 No.

Jay Shetty 53:25 But, but you hear it often where people are like, "Oh, I need to talk to this," or, "I need to talk to that." Uh, another fight language is the language of instant blame. Like, you just start blaming that person straight away.

Ashley Graham 53:35 Uh-huh. Is that-

Jay Shetty 53:35 Like you don't wanna take any responsibility for it.

Ashley Graham 53:38 Oh.

Jay Shetty 53:38 And of course, we start-

Ashley Graham 53:38 Sounds very juvenile.

Jay Shetty 53:39 Yes, very. But it happens.

Ashley Graham 53:41 I know.

Jay Shetty 53:42 I'm, I'm sure you've experienced it or seen it around-

Ashley Graham 53:44 Look, I've done it.

Jay Shetty 53:45 Yeah, exactly.

Ashley Graham 53:45 I'm not gonna sit here and lie to you.

Jay Shetty 53:46 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 53:47 But, like, geez.

Jay Shetty 53:48 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 53:48 Hearing you say it, that that's like an actual trait, I'm like, "I don't do that."

Jay Shetty 53:51 Yeah. We, we, we ... so,

Jay Shetty 54:57 yeah. It's crazy. Okay, we've got time for a couple more questions. I wanted to talk about your partnership with Ellen.

Ashley Graham 55:04 Yes.

Jay Shetty 55:04 Uh, because I'm about to embark on that journey.

Ashley Graham 55:06 Oh my God.

Jay Shetty 55:07 So need all your, your wisdom-

Ashley Graham 55:08 Are you shooting soon?

Jay Shetty 55:09 ... and experience. Yeah, yeah, soon.

Ashley Graham 55:10 Okay, great.

Jay Shetty 55:11 Yeah, yeah.

Ashley Graham 55:11 So exciting.

Jay Shetty 55:11 So very excited about it. But you have got season two of Fearless-

Ashley Graham 55:15 Yes

Jay Shetty 55:15 ... coming out. When's it coming out? Is it out already?

Ashley Graham 55:17 Um, so we start shooting Fearless really soon. And it's just been so incredible because I've been able to go to some, like, meet people from even cities that I'm from and, and, and just open up a whole new door that they never thought could ever be even cracked. And it's like we're giving opportunities to people who have felt like the underdogs, who have felt not even worthy to walk into their greatness or into the ability that, that they've, that they've dreamt of. And, um, and, and being able to work with Ellen and her team has been this, like- ... incredibly eye-opening experience that I've absolutely loved. And just seeing people's lives change right before your eyes is also just oh.

Jay Shetty 56:00 You've got people in tears.

Ashley Graham 56:01 Oh.

Jay Shetty 56:02 Like, it's literally like-

Ashley Graham 56:03 There's no words

Jay Shetty 56:03 ... every episode it's like-

Ashley Graham 56:05 It's like, yeah, it's a sound. It's like oh.

Jay Shetty 56:06 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 56:07 So i- it's been absolutely amazing.

Jay Shetty 56:10 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 56:10 Yeah. I've had so much fun.

Jay Shetty 56:11 It's been-

Ashley Graham 56:11 You're gonna have great sh-

Jay Shetty 56:12 Yeah

Ashley Graham 56:12 ... you're gonna have great second year.

Jay Shetty 56:12 It's been beautiful to watch, too. I feel like the, the emotion that's captured in, in season one-

Ashley Graham 56:18 Yeah

Jay Shetty 56:18 ... is just unbelievable.

Ashley Graham 56:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 56:20 Like, you're seeing people literally, like, break down, having incredible-

Ashley Graham 56:22 Fall to their knees-

Jay Shetty 56:23 Yeah

Ashley Graham 56:24 ... or just fall in people's arms. And, and, um, you know, Ricky, who transitioned-

Jay Shetty 56:29 Yes

Ashley Graham 56:29 ... it was, that was this, like, incredible moment. He had never met a trans person before in his life, and then there's Laverne Cox, and here we are, you know, giving him money for, for his, um, operations. And it's just like boom, boom, boom. It, it is just, it's like, it's heartbreaking to see that these opportunities had never been, uh, afforded to him, but it's also just so incredible to see that, that we were able to, to give him the space to be himself.

Jay Shetty 56:56 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 56:56 So you know, I mean, like, and everybody's story is just so different. That was the one that, like, that I kept hearing come back, though.

Jay Shetty 57:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ashley Graham 57:02 So I'm excited to shoot season two.

Jay Shetty 57:05 That's amazing. I wanna go towards, towards the end of our interview now, but I, I wanted to ask you a question about you've seen and created so many shifts in the beauty industry.

Ashley Graham 57:15 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 57:16 Which ones are you really happy about that have changed, and which ones are you still trying to change?

Ashley Graham 57:22 Well, what I really wanna see change is that, that we don't have to have this conversation anymore, that everything-

Jay Shetty 57:27 Mm-hmm

Ashley Graham 57:27 ... is the norm, that inclusivity, diversity is the norm, and I think that things are shifting in that direction. But, you know, I've been doing this for 20 years, and I've never seen something rapidly happen this quickly. And, and it's, I, it feels like this wild success within the fashion industry, which I'm, I'm so excited for everybody that's been a part of the process. Um, so I think that we need to see more curves on the runway. I think that designers, once they start understanding that not every model or person or, or, or a customer is not going to fit into this ideal, um, size or ideal beauty or whatever, then, then more designers are gonna be like, "Oh, okay, well, I don't have to just keep putting the same type of person on the runway."

Jay Shetty 58:11 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 58:11 "I don't have to just keep putting the same type of person in a campaign." So I think that that's what I'm most excited to see is, like, hopefully in the next five years we see even more of a change. And you know, you've seen the industry change. There's a model, her name is Paloma Elsesser, and she's, um, she's been doing incredible editorials that girls, women that look like us, that have our bodies, have never been afforded before. And, um, and there's so many designers, like the ones that I had said before, Christian, Prabal, Michael, that are just giving so many opportunities for curvy women-

Jay Shetty 58:42 I love that

Ashley Graham 58:42 ... to be able to dress themselves in cool, comfortable clothes. And, uh, so yes, there's a long way to go, but we have come so far-

Jay Shetty 58:50 Yeah

Ashley Graham 58:50 ... which is also so great.

Jay Shetty 58:52 Yeah. And I love that you've been such a huge part of that.

Ashley Graham 58:54 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 58:55 And to be able to sit here and have this conversation with you-

Ashley Graham 58:57 Thank you

Jay Shetty 58:57 ... like, I think we should celebrate that because it's going to take... I hope that this interview's gonna inspire more people in whatever space you're in, whatever industry you're in.

Ashley Graham 59:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 59:07 Big or small, like, it doesn't matter about the scale, but it's about starting to have a voice, starting to make that shift-

Ashley Graham 59:12 Yeah

Jay Shetty 59:12 ... starting to stand up for what you believe in-

Ashley Graham 59:14 Stand up

Jay Shetty 59:14 ... what's important to you.

Ashley Graham 59:15 Use your voice.

Jay Shetty 59:16 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 59:16 And that's in any industry.

Jay Shetty 59:17 Absolutely. Awesome. So we end every interview with a final five, which is a rapid-fire, quick-fire round.

Ashley Graham 59:21 We do it in Pretty Big Deal, too.

Jay Shetty 59:22 Ans- you do?

Ashley Graham 59:23 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 59:24 Answers are only one word or one sentence maximum.

Ashley Graham 59:27 Oh, God. Okay.

Jay Shetty 59:28 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 59:28 Ooh.

Jay Shetty 59:28 So are you ready?

Ashley Graham 59:29 Yes.

Jay Shetty 59:29 Do you wanna... Wait. Did we, do you wanna talk about anything else that we haven't talked about? Exciting things.

Ashley Graham 59:32 Do you wanna talk about Pretty Big Deal?

Jay Shetty 59:33 Yeah, let's talk about Pretty Big Deal.

Ashley Graham 59:34 Okay. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 59:34 Because I know we're gonna do it when you relaunch-

Ashley Graham 59:36 Yeah

Jay Shetty 59:36 ... but let's talk about it.

Ashley Graham 59:37 You're gonna be on Pretty Big Deal.

Jay Shetty 59:38 Yeah, exactly.

Ashley Graham 59:38 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 59:38 So [laughs] I-

Ashley Graham 59:40 But that's the trade, right?

Jay Shetty 59:41 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ashley Graham 59:41 Is gonna [laughs]

Jay Shetty 59:42 No. Yeah, that's why we're doing this, right? Like, we're only doing this because she's having me on.

Ashley Graham 59:46 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 59:48 But-

Ashley Graham 59:48 No, I'm excited.

Jay Shetty 59:49 But yeah, yeah.

Ashley Graham 59:49 So season two of Pretty Big Deal, um, you know, when we had our lunch and you were explaining your process of, of how you shoot your podcast, I was like, "Eureka, I've got new ideas."

Jay Shetty 59:59 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 1:00:00 So I'm excited for season two of Pretty Big Deal to come out. And you know, I, I wanted to start the podcast because, first of all, models aren't given the opportunity to have a voice, and-

Jay Shetty 1:00:10 That's, that's such news to me-

Ashley Graham 1:00:12 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:00:12 ... as having never been in the modeling industry, it's so interesting from a complete outsider-

Ashley Graham 1:00:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:00:15 ... like, to hear that and be like, "What? How can, how can we ever not give someone a voice?" But I get it.

Ashley Graham 1:00:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:00:20 I get it.

Ashley Graham 1:00:21 We're-

Jay Shetty 1:00:21 Yeah

Ashley Graham 1:00:21 ... just supposed to be clothes hangers-

Jay Shetty 1:00:22 Yeah

Ashley Graham 1:00:22 ... and just be there-

Jay Shetty 1:00:24 Oh, God

Ashley Graham 1:00:24 ... and be pretty.

Jay Shetty 1:00:24 Wow.

Ashley Graham 1:00:25 So and I've always wanted my own TV show, and I've always, you know, felt like, you know, "I'm a personality."

Jay Shetty 1:00:31 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 1:00:31 Like, "What can I do?" But you know, it's not like people are just handing out TV shows. So I was like, "You know what I'm gonna do? I'm just gonna go make my own podcast," because this is the generation-

Jay Shetty 1:00:39 Yeah

Ashley Graham 1:00:39 ... like, our generation isn't going home and watching TV anymore.

Jay Shetty 1:00:42 Nope.

Ashley Graham 1:00:42 We're going, we're, we're on the go, and we're very busy, so we're listening to podcasts. We're watching YouTube. And it's-

Jay Shetty 1:00:48 Yeah

Ashley Graham 1:00:48 ... something that I was like, "That's, that's my audience. I'm gonna go with them, and I'm gonna talk to them about issues that I feel very passionate about, talk to them, um, with people that have changed my life, who have been inspirational in, in, in my career and in my, um, just my growing up." And I've felt really great about being able to, um, just share all those different stories with my audience.

Jay Shetty 1:01:11 Yeah. That's awesome. Who are some of your favorites from season one?

Ashley Graham 1:01:14 I love-

Jay Shetty 1:01:15 I know it's hard to say, but-

Ashley Graham 1:01:16 No, no, no.

Jay Shetty 1:01:16 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 1:01:16 I, no, I mean, I loved every interview, duh.

Jay Shetty 1:01:19 Yeah. [laughs]

Ashley Graham 1:01:20 Um, but I loved talking to Noor Tagouri-

Jay Shetty 1:01:22 Mm-hmm

Ashley Graham 1:01:22 ... who is one of my friends that is Muslim, and she wears a hijab. And we really got to talk about Christianity and, and, um, being a Muslim and, like, not parallels but, like, how we as c- how we came from completely different opposite sides of the spectrum but, like, that we could have these natural conversations and talk about things that, that, um, that matter to us and, and, and be able to share so open and honestly, and I think a lot, it resonated with a lot of people, that conversation. Um, I loved talking to Lily Singh and, um, uh, uh, Lindsey Vonn and Amy Schumer. I mean, like, you know-

Jay Shetty 1:01:58 Yeah

Ashley Graham 1:01:58 ... just, just to name a few.

Jay Shetty 1:01:59 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 1:01:59 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:02:00 Amazing. Yeah, and they're such awesome... And they're all, that's the beautiful thing that I love, that everyone you've interviewed are doing such awesome, purposeful work.

Ashley Graham 1:02:07 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:02:07 Like, everyone-

Ashley Graham 1:02:08 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:02:09 ... on the podcast at, uh, Pretty Big Deal is doing something meaningful in their industry-

Ashley Graham 1:02:13 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:02:13 ... and trying to create shifts And ripples, which is incredible

Ashley Graham 1:02:16 Exactly

Jay Shetty 1:02:16 Yeah

Ashley Graham 1:02:16 And that to me is, is most important and I always love to celebrate other women

Jay Shetty 1:02:20 Yeah. And I love the name too.

Ashley Graham 1:02:22 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:02:23 Um-

Ashley Graham 1:02:23 You know, Justin came up with the name.

Jay Shetty 1:02:24 Oh.

Ashley Graham 1:02:25 Yeah, he said, "Well, you've always been called pretty for a big girl-

Jay Shetty 1:02:27 Yeah

Ashley Graham 1:02:27 ... and you're my pretty big deal, so why don't you just say Pretty Big Deal?"

Jay Shetty 1:02:30 Ah, I love it.

Ashley Graham 1:02:31 So cute. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:02:31 It's such a great name. There you go. On top of being consistent and everything else-

Ashley Graham 1:02:36 I know. He's so-

Jay Shetty 1:02:36 He's coming up with names. Like-

Ashley Graham 1:02:37 Sounds like the dream man, doesn't he? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:02:38 Yeah, he really does. Yeah, he really does. I can't wait to meet him. But no, awesome. Thank you so much-

Ashley Graham 1:02:43 Thank you

Jay Shetty 1:02:44 ... for being here. We're gonna go to the final five, okay?

Ashley Graham 1:02:45 Okay, okay. Here we go.

Jay Shetty 1:02:47 So-

Ashley Graham 1:02:47 Here we go

Jay Shetty 1:02:47 ... question one, what is something people would be surprised to find out that you do-

Ashley Graham 1:02:51 Uh-

Jay Shetty 1:02:52 ... every day?

Ashley Graham 1:02:52 Um, every day? Oh, gosh. Um, gosh, I don't know. Every day?

Jay Shetty 1:02:59 Oh, anything.

Ashley Graham 1:03:00 Okay.

Jay Shetty 1:03:00 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 1:03:00 Something that I love to do is aerial yoga.

Jay Shetty 1:03:03 Mm.

Ashley Graham 1:03:03 Like, where you hang with the ro-

Jay Shetty 1:03:04 Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that

Ashley Graham 1:03:04 ... with the ribbons.

Jay Shetty 1:03:05 Oh.

Ashley Graham 1:03:06 Yeah, I love it.

Jay Shetty 1:03:07 Oh, wow, okay.

Ashley Graham 1:03:08 Love it, love it.

Jay Shetty 1:03:08 When did you start doing that?

Ashley Graham 1:03:10 Oh, probably a couple years ago.

Jay Shetty 1:03:11 Oh, cool.

Ashley Graham 1:03:12 Yeah. It's-

Jay Shetty 1:03:12 I've never tried it. It looks-

Ashley Graham 1:03:13 Oh, it, like, releases your back, it opens your sciatic. It's like-

Jay Shetty 1:03:17 Oh, wow

Ashley Graham 1:03:17 ... it's really strengthening for your upper body. Oh, it's-

Jay Shetty 1:03:18 It looks really hard to do

Ashley Graham 1:03:19 ... it's so hard-

Jay Shetty 1:03:20 Okay, all right

Ashley Graham 1:03:20 ... but it's so much fun.

Jay Shetty 1:03:21 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 1:03:22 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:03:22 For a second I was like, are you gonna say, "No, it's so easy," and I was like, yeah-

Ashley Graham 1:03:24 No, it's not easy

Jay Shetty 1:03:25 ... it looks really hard.

Ashley Graham 1:03:25 Please.

Jay Shetty 1:03:26 That's why I've avoided it.

Ashley Graham 1:03:27 I'm like, ah, ah.

Jay Shetty 1:03:28 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 1:03:28 Ah, climbing up the ropes.

Jay Shetty 1:03:30 Awesome. Second question, what's the first thing you do when you wake up?

Ashley Graham 1:03:33 Um, definitely press the snooze button. [laughs] I a- I, like, I-

Jay Shetty 1:03:36 Interesting

Ashley Graham 1:03:37 ... l- no shame in my game

Jay Shetty 1:03:39 I didn't ex-

Ashley Graham 1:03:39 I don't care. Like, but I love to wake up early because I'm all about having that moment to, those moments to myself.

Jay Shetty 1:03:44 Mm-hmm.

Ashley Graham 1:03:44 So yeah, I'll press snooze-

Jay Shetty 1:03:47 On-

Ashley Graham 1:03:47 ... maybe twice.

Jay Shetty 1:03:47 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 1:03:48 But that's okay, because that's something that I know about my-

Jay Shetty 1:03:51 That could be like 4:00 AM, right? Like, that's-

Ashley Graham 1:03:52 Y- yeah

Jay Shetty 1:03:52 ... yeah.

Ashley Graham 1:03:53 Uh-huh.

Jay Shetty 1:03:53 [laughs]

Ashley Graham 1:03:54 4:00 AM.

Jay Shetty 1:03:54 [laughs] Uh, question number three, if I stole your phone, whose phone number would I wanna steal the most?

Ashley Graham 1:04:01 Oh, well, do you have Ellen DeGeneres' number?

Jay Shetty 1:04:03 I do.

Ashley Graham 1:04:04 You do? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:04:06 Yeah. [laughs]

Ashley Graham 1:04:06 I love it.

Jay Shetty 1:04:07 I do.

Ashley Graham 1:04:07 I love it.

Jay Shetty 1:04:08 I do. [laughs] Go on.

Ashley Graham 1:04:10 Oh, God, I don't know. Who knows? I think my contacts are pretty boring.

Jay Shetty 1:04:13 Justin. Probably Justin.

Ashley Graham 1:04:14 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:04:14 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 1:04:14 You know what? We'll do a double date.

Jay Shetty 1:04:15 Yeah, yeah. I like Justin. Okay, number four, what do you consider your greatest accomplishment?

Ashley Graham 1:04:20 Oh, man, I always am so humbled when people come up to me and say, like, "You gave me the opportunity to s-

Jay Shetty 1:04:29 Mm

Ashley Graham 1:04:29 ... to tell my story, to speak my truth, to, to get into a swimming suit for the first time." It was just, like, those stories that they say because I told my story, I'm like, "Are you ser-" Like, it still shocks me to my core-

Jay Shetty 1:04:43 Mm

Ashley Graham 1:04:43 ... that that, that's something that has, that has changed someone else's life, and to me, greatest accomplishment. Doesn't matter what covers, doesn't matter what, anything out, and the awards, nothing. Like, it is those people.

Jay Shetty 1:04:55 I love it. And fifth and final question, what's your favorite prayer, meditation, mantra that you repeat every day to yourself or-

Ashley Graham 1:05:02 Um, so I don't do mantras and m- or, like, I have my, I have my affirmations.

Jay Shetty 1:05:07 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 1:05:07 But for me, m- what I do is I have music, uh, worship music-

Jay Shetty 1:05:11 Oh, wonderful

Ashley Graham 1:05:12 ... and I sing a lot of, like, old gospel songs-

Jay Shetty 1:05:15 I love that

Ashley Graham 1:05:16 ... um, or I love Fred Hammond, and, um, and I'll sing out loud to myself, uh, with myself, and I'll praise God all morning. And I just-

Jay Shetty 1:05:23 Love that

Ashley Graham 1:05:23 ... it makes me just so happy.

Jay Shetty 1:05:25 Yeah.

Ashley Graham 1:05:26 So that's, that's something that I like to do.

Jay Shetty 1:05:28 That's awesome. Thank you, Ashley.

Ashley Graham 1:05:30 Thanks, Jay.

Jay Shetty 1:05:30 How amazing was that? Everyone who's been listening or watching, I feel that Ashley shared so many incredible insights today. Make sure that you screenshot them, type them in, share them-

Ashley Graham 1:05:39 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:05:39 ... on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, YouTube. Tag both of us, 'cause we'd love to see what you've learned and gained and grown from in this episode. There were countless messages that I was taking mental notes of.

Ashley Graham 1:05:49 Ah, thanks. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:05:50 And I really, really hope that you find them as well. Make sure you go and follow Ashley across social media. It's Ashley Graham on absolutely every platform that you can possibly find.

Ashley Graham 1:05:58 That's right.

Jay Shetty 1:05:59 Make sure you look out for Fearless and season two of Pretty Big Deal as well. And Ashley, again, thank you so much for doing this.

Ashley Graham 1:06:05 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:06:06 I'm so happy and grateful and excited for my audience to hear this. Really excited.

Ashley Graham 1:06:10 Thank you, Jay. I can't wait for you to come on Pretty Big Deal.

Jay Shetty 1:06:11 Yeah, I'm really looking forward to it.

Ashley Graham 1:06:13 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:06:13 I'm really looking forward to it.

Ashley Graham 1:06:13 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:06:14 Yeah, thank you. If you want even more videos just like this one, make sure you subscribe and click on the boxes over here. I'm also excited to let you know that you can now get my book, Think Like a Monk, from thinklikeamonkbook.com. Check below in the description to make sure you order today.