Blocked by Fear of Being Judged? Here's How to STOP Caring & UNBLOCK Your Creativity!

1. 0:00 – 0:49

   Intro

   1. AMAmie McNee0:00

      Literally the day I started journaling, I haven't stopped, and it ... Everything changed because I allowed creativity back into my life shame-free. I think so many of us are creating, but we've got so much shame around it. We're not good enough. It's not making enough money. My parents, you know, really think I should give it up. There's so many narratives that come with creativity. So many of us are just being held back, kept small. I want you to find out what happens when you take perfectionism out of the equation and you just let yourself create.

   2. JSJay Shetty0:28

      The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs] How can someone be saying things that are so sometimes difficult, uncomfortable, hard to say, and hard to hear, but doing it in a way that was so clear and so powerful? And

2. 0:49 – 2:12

   Are We Born Creative or Can It Be Learned?

   1. JSJay Shetty0:49

      I wanted to start off by asking you, how do you see people? Are people born creative, or can people become creative? And is everyone in some way creative? Because I think a lot of people listening right now are thinking, "Jay, this episode isn't for me."

   2. AMAmie McNee1:05

      Yeah.

   3. JSJay Shetty1:06

      "I'm not creative."

   4. AMAmie McNee1:07

      Yeah.

   5. JSJay Shetty1:07

      "I'm not an artist. What do I do?"

   6. AMAmie McNee1:11

      I know. When I say, and I say it a lot, I say, "We need your art," and I worry about the amount of people who are like, "Oh, not my art." But I'm like, "Your art." And I think we have a real ... We can really pedestal the term art as to what it is, and we think it's, oh, it's fine art, or, oh, it has to be photography or a certain type of art. But art comes in so many different shapes and forms, and we all have a capability and a desire to create. It's just that it looks different for all of us. So when I say we need your art, like, I mean we need your art. Like, we all have a drive and a desire to make stuff. It's so innate. It's so human. So I think we really need to take art off the pedestal. It's not just for fine arts, although obviously it is, but it's this. It's podcasting. It's, uh, you know, watercolors. It's writing. It's planting. It's gardening.

   7. JSJay Shetty1:59

      It's makeup tutorials.

   8. AMAmie McNee2:00

      It's makeup tutorials. It's book reviews.

   9. JSJay Shetty2:02

      Cooking.

   10. AMAmie McNee2:03

       It's cooking. Like, creativity, like, sinks into all aspects of our lives, and we all have a thirst for it. And so when I say we need your art, I'm talking about you. [laughs]

   11. JSJay Shetty2:11

       [laughs]

3. 2:12 – 3:50

   Why Everyone Is an Artist in Their Own Way

   1. JSJay Shetty2:12

      Yeah, and I love that you are broadening the definition of art-

   2. AMAmie McNee2:15

      Yeah

   3. JSJay Shetty2:16

      ... because I think you're so right. Like, growing up, I'm not ... I wasn't good at drawing.

   4. AMAmie McNee2:20

      Yeah.

   5. JSJay Shetty2:20

      And so I always thought I wasn't artistic. Yet it was so funny, I remember when I was finishing primary school, elementary school, and I remember we did this reflection exercise, and it was like, "What's your favorite subject, and what's your worst subject?" And I put my favorite subject being math because I w- thought I was a geek, but I wasn't. And then I wrote down my worst subject was art. And then when I went to secondary school, high school, and when I finished, if you asked me what my favorite subject was, it was art, and if you asked me what my least favorite subject was, it was math. Because I had an art teacher called Mr. Buckeridge at QE Boys School in Barnet that expanded the definition of art from day one, and it became about color. It became about juxtaposition. It b- became about meaning. It became about collage. It became about imagery. It became about my passions. It became about all these other things. And I then, uh, made him feel really upset because I, uh, sold out and didn't study art at university even though I, I'd kind of bas-

   6. AMAmie McNee3:25

      But in so many ways-

   7. JSJay Shetty3:25

      Yeah

   8. AMAmie McNee3:26

      ... you have studied art.

   9. JSJay Shetty3:27

      [laughs] Yeah.

   10. AMAmie McNee3:27

       You know? Like, you've kept that going in-

   11. JSJay Shetty3:28

       No, but it was such a-

   12. AMAmie McNee3:29

       ... in all aspects of your life.

   13. JSJay Shetty3:30

       Yeah, but you've broadened that definition for everyone.

   14. AMAmie McNee3:32

       Yeah.

   15. JSJay Shetty3:32

       And I think that's so needed because you are right. Podcasting is art. Writing is art. Cooking is art.

   16. AMAmie McNee3:38

       Yeah.

   17. JSJay Shetty3:38

       Uh, all of these things.

   18. AMAmie McNee3:39

       The way we dress, you know, the way we express, like, you can't, you can't not create art. Um, and I think we need to reclaim that word for o- for ourselves. It is mine, and you are an artist in some way, shape,

4. 3:50 – 6:37

   What Happens When You Suppress Your Creativity

   1. AMAmie McNee3:50

      or form.

   2. JSJay Shetty3:50

      What happens when we stifle ourselves?

   3. AMAmie McNee3:53

      Mm.

   4. JSJay Shetty3:53

      So what happens when you hold back? Sometimes today people even know they're artistic. Maybe they even had a little skill when they were younger. Maybe they were passionate. Maybe even now in their spare time, but they're blocking themselves. They're stifling themselves because they've heard things like, "Well, that won't get you a career. That won't pay the bills. That's not gonna make you money. That's not a real job." And by the way, I heard all those things growing up, so it feels very familiar to me. What happens to us when we stifle ourselves and block ourselves?

   5. AMAmie McNee4:25

      Yeah, I mean, if you will indulge me, I'll tell you a bit of my story.

   6. JSJay Shetty4:28

      Please.

   7. AMAmie McNee4:28

      Because I feel like, and exactly as you said, you've experienced this, like, all I wanted to do was tell stories. Like, it's all I wanted to do. Whether it was through acting or writing, I just felt, like, driven to express myself through storytelling. And once I left school, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna take this seriously. Like, I really want to commit to this." And, you know, from the age of 18 to the age of, like, you know, really recently, like, I was inundated with, "It's childlike. It's irresponsible. It's foolish to take the creative arts seriously." And I, I ended up with severe depression. I was so low because I was so embarrassed by this extraordinarily strong desire to, to tell stories. Like, I just wanted to tell stories, and I felt so ashamed about it, and I felt like I couldn't be a real adult. I couldn't grow. And so I withheld my creativity, and I felt incredible amounts of shame, and I felt so embarrassed, and I didn't want to talk about it with anybody, and it resulted in me being ridiculously depressed. I was so low. I had such low affect. I had no motivation, um, because there was, like, a war going on inside me. And half of myself was like, "I have to tell stories. Like, I am here to create, to make art, and to impact the world with my art." And then the other half of me was like, "This is so irresponsible. Why can't you be a real adult? Why can't you just grow up? Like, get a real job." And that duality and that war within me left me, like, broken. And it wasn't until I, I started journaling, and I started seeing the stories that I was telling myself, and I was like, "This ... I cannot live this way." And so I started rewriting them, like, with my pen on the pages of my journal, and I allowed art back into my life, like, shame-free art. And, like, since literally the day I started journaling, I haven't stopped, and it ... Everything changed because I allowed creativity back into my life shame-free.

   8. JSJay Shetty6:15

      Wow, I love that. I love the sound of shame-free art

   9. AMAmie McNee6:17

      It's so important. I think so many of us are creating, but we've got so much shame around it. We're not good enough. It's not making enough money. My parents, you know, really think I should give it up. There's so many narratives that come with creativity, and so many of us are just being held back, kept small. Yeah. We need shame-free art.

5. 6:37 – 8:30

   How Journaling and Self-Compassion Can Heal You

   1. JSJay Shetty6:37

      How did you get the courage to allow art back in?

   2. AMAmie McNee6:40

      Mm.

   3. JSJay Shetty6:40

      Especially when you're in a dark place, like you're saying you're experiencing depression, you're hearing all this negativity around you about the relevance of your art and the value of your art. How do you, in that place, go, "I'm gonna turn to art," because it's the one thing that's been villainized and made to seem negative?

   4. AMAmie McNee6:58

      Yeah. It was through journaling. It was a complete narrative shift. So I would write out the stories that I was telling myself. So, "Why can't you get a real job? Why do you think this is possible? This is so embarrassing. You've got hundreds of rejection letters from publishers. No one's listening to you." And then I would write it all out so I could witness the stories I was telling myself. Like, I needed to see the amount of shame I was in because... And it would shock me. Like, I would reread what I was writing, and I was like, "My brain is, like, a place of just, like, violence and vitriol." Like, I'm speaking so terribly to myself and to my inner artist. And then at the end of my journaling session, I would be like, "Okay, well, how do I want to sound?" And I call it mothering myself. It's like a re-parenting exercise.

   5. JSJay Shetty7:39

      Mm. Yeah

   6. AMAmie McNee7:39

      And I would just be like, "You know what?" And I would treat myself like a baby, and I'd be like, "Baby girl, you are here to tell stories. I am so proud of you. I'm proud of the way that you are showing up. I'm proud of the way that you are rebe- rebelling against society's expectation. You have been put on this earth to make art, to create, um, and I'm so proud of what you're doing." And so no matter how much I, like, spewed out crap, and there was so much inner critic rubbish on the pages, I always ended it with this voice that was like, "Okay, but I'm actually really proud of you."

   7. JSJay Shetty8:08

      Mm.

   8. AMAmie McNee8:08

      "You know, you are here to make art, and y- you're on the path." I used to tell that to myself all the time. "You're on the path. You're on the path." And so yeah, it was, it was through words, which is so appropriate, I guess, for me as an author.

   9. JSJay Shetty8:19

      Yeah. But it, but it's so interesting that that wasn't a learned technique, or it wasn't-

   10. AMAmie McNee8:24

       No

   11. JSJay Shetty8:24

       ... it was something that came-

   12. AMAmie McNee8:25

       It just happened. Yeah

   13. JSJay Shetty8:26

       ... yeah, something that came from within, but now it's a practice people can follow through.

   14. AMAmie McNee8:29

       Yeah.

   15. JSJay Shetty8:29

       And I

6. 8:30 – 13:03

   You Owe Everything to the Past Version of You

   1. JSJay Shetty8:30

      love that repetition of you are on the path-

   2. AMAmie McNee8:32

      Mm

   3. JSJay Shetty8:32

      ... because I think that's so, so true in that we think that we're either off the path or on the path, and we think that we're either going in the wrong direction or the right direction, rather than just recognizing [laughs] that you're on the path either way. And I've, I've done this often, and I've, I've seen a lot of people do it, where we go, "You know, up until last year, I was j- it was just a mess, and then I figured it out," which basically devalues all of that experience, all of that pain, all of that stress, all of the amazing journey you've had that brought you to that point, that actually inspires and powers this path. But you're like, "Now I'm on the right path." And so we have this way of devaluing past experiences, even when we say, "Oh, I had this light bulb moment, and then everything changed." And it's like, well, no, all of that got you to the light bulb experience.

   4. AMAmie McNee9:23

      Yeah, I love that, Jay. Something I say to myself is that, yeah, I mean, again, I repeat it all, all the time, like, "You are on the path, you are on the path, you are on the path," but it would've been so easy for me to say, "Oh, I've figured it out. Now I've got the publishing deal. Now, you know, I've, I get to have an audience, and now I've figured it out." But I actually owe everything to the girl that navigated silence, to the girl that navigated rejection, to the girl that had so much shame. Like, when I think about how I got here, I owe everything to her, and I tell that to artists all the time because, you know, so many artists, we are navigating... You know, we're sharing stuff on social media. No one's seeing it. No one's liking it. We're, you know, daring to put our art up for sale. No one's wants to buy it. We are learning new crafts. We're being so vulnerable, and you, your future version of yourself owes everything to you for daring to be brave, for being courageous, for taking up space even when no one else is listening or no one else is watching. Like, I, right here, on The Jay Shetty Show, owe everything to the girl who was sitting at a cafe extraordinarily depressed, but saying, "You know what? I'm gonna dare to write today even though nobody else wants me to write."

   5. JSJay Shetty10:33

      I love that. I, I, I so love that because you made me think of, I remember when I started out, and I think the first two presentations I gave, pretty much no one showed up. And then for years, I was doing events for five people, 10 people, and I loved it. And actually, I was so lucky because social media kind of kicked off a bit later than when I would've done that, so I never even had the pressure or the belief that more than five to 10 people could come. Because maybe I'd seen 20 people in a room, or 50 people in a room, or 100 people in a room.

   6. AMAmie McNee11:06

      Mm.

   7. JSJay Shetty11:06

      And so to me, 100 was a big number.

   8. AMAmie McNee11:09

      Yeah.

   9. JSJay Shetty11:10

      And I was talking to someone just a couple of days ago, and they're a creator, and they were saying, like, "Jay, I just feel this pressure of scale, and I feel this pressure of, like, not enough people have seen my work." And I was just thinking, you know, whether I had five people in the room, 10 people, 100, or, you know, whatever it is now, it... I was always just happy and grateful to be with whoever was in the room.

   10. AMAmie McNee11:30

       I love that.

   11. JSJay Shetty11:30

       And so now I feel that sa- And I know it's easy for me to... It sounds easy for me to say it now, and it's hard for me to reflect back from the external view of whether people believe me or not, but I can honestly say that I remember just wanting to spend the whole evening with the five people who turned up, and answer their questions, and share with them insights, and it was so beautiful and valuable and meaningful that that's what gave me the practice. It what, it's what gave me the ability to understand different people's challenges and stresses, and everything that I've been able to create here-Is only because of that experience. It wasn't that I'm different now, and I'm better now, and I mastered something. It wasn't that. It was, it was all part of the same path.

   12. AMAmie McNee12:12

       Yeah. We, we owe everything to that version of Jay.

   13. JSJay Shetty12:14

       Yeah.

   14. AMAmie McNee12:15

       You know? And we get to experience you now because you dared, and you enjoyed, and you loved doing that work earlier on. Yeah.

   15. JSJay Shetty12:21

       Mm-hmm.

   16. AMAmie McNee12:21

       I love that.

   17. JSJay Shetty12:22

       But then how we get that art out there should potentially have structure and strategy and-

   18. AMAmie McNee12:26

       Yeah, I'm gonna disagree-

   19. JSJay Shetty12:28

       ... and focus

   20. AMAmie McNee12:28

       ... with you.

   21. JSJay Shetty12:28

       I wanna hear your thoughts.

   22. AMAmie McNee12:29

       This is such a nuanced conversation. I'm so glad you said that because it is so complicated, and it's so very valid to want to just make art for art's sake. It's so hard. I speak to so many creatives who, whose closest people aren't backing them. I think when we commit to art, we often trigger a lot of people, and we trigger the artist within them that they squashed down and that they repressed. And so when we say, "Oh, I'm actually being incredibly brave, and I've decided to write a book," we trigger a little part in them that says, "Well, I never let myself write a book. I thought you needed permission to write a book, and here you are just taking up space writing a book."

   23. JSJay Shetty13:02

       I feel like

7. 13:03 – 16:07

   How to Move Through the Fear of Being Judged

   1. JSJay Shetty13:03

      so many people are probably listening to this right now going, "Amie, Jay, I have an idea."

   2. AMAmie McNee13:07

      Yeah.

   3. JSJay Shetty13:08

      Like, "I have something in my head that really makes sense, but I'm scared to put it out there." And I'm sure you hear this all the time, but I see the fear of judgment and the fear of your art being shamed and the fear of people thinking it's silly, not good enough, as being such a blocker for people. And I wanted to ask you, how do you help people overcome that fear? Because it seems to be the biggest wall in the way of people and their dreams.

   4. AMAmie McNee13:40

      I mean, there's so many different ways we can look at this. First of all, I'm so excited that you have an idea. Like, this is so exciting. Let's cherish it. We need to take care of it-

   5. JSJay Shetty13:46

      Mm.

   6. AMAmie McNee13:47

      Because-

   7. JSJay Shetty13:47

      I like that

   8. AMAmie McNee13:47

      ... like, I'm really being serious. Like, we need your art. We need your expression. We need you to take up space. There are people out there in the world who need what you have to create, and if you choose to withhold it, they will never get to experience it. Like, you are a one-time phenomenon that will never, ever be seen again, and if you choose not to take action on this idea, then that's done. That idea is done eternally, will never be seen again. I just wanna, like, really enforce that because it can be so easy to be so flippant. "Oh, it's just an idea. It was never gonna go anywhere." These ideas are so precious, and we need to take care of them. The judgment thing, misunderstanding the, "Oh my God, what's that dude from high school gonna think of me?"

   9. JSJay Shetty14:25

      [laughs]

   10. AMAmie McNee14:25

       Like, is so valid because art is so vulnerable. Um, creativity is like g- pouring a little bit of you into an external thing and giving it to the world. Like, that's super vulnerable, and so I wanna validate that feeling of, "Oh my God, what will people think of me?" Art is a courageous exercise. It is so vulnerable. It is so scary, and it's okay that we have these feelings. I think there are several things that we can do. I think the first one is come home to a truth, is that you will be misunderstood, and you will be judged, and it's still worth making the art. I can't let some random guy from high school stop me from doing my work, and I almost did. When I decided I wanted to really start taking up space as a writer, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna start, like, an Instagram. I'm gonna s- start sharing my words," and I s- was like, "No, I can't. It's so cringey." And I was like, "That guy from high school, like Ben from high school," or, like ... I kept thinking of these random people. They're gonna see me, and they're gonna be like, "Who does she think she is?" And it stopped me in my tracks for ages. And I just love that version of myself because she was so brave, and she decided, "No, I want this life. I wanna tell stories." And so I started Inspired to Write, started my Instagram, and I blocked every single person I could find.

   11. JSJay Shetty15:37

       [laughs]

   12. AMAmie McNee15:37

       And I, like, sat there for hours being like, "They would stop me showing up. They would stop me showing up." And I created a cocoon for myself to become the artist that I needed to be. And so I think, first of all, we do need to understand that we will be misunderstood and that it is safe to be misunderstood. But second of all, that we can take precautions to make sure that we are, uh, that we have spaces to create in that feel as safe as possible. But creation itself will never be safe. It's inherently risky, and that's why it's inherently rewarding.

   13. JSJay Shetty16:06

       [laughs]

8. 16:07 – 17:25

   Why Art Exposes Both Light and Darkness

   1. JSJay Shetty16:07

      I love that. I love that you actually had a physical way-

   2. AMAmie McNee16:10

      I was like-

   3. JSJay Shetty16:10

      ... of having a block-

   4. AMAmie McNee16:11

      No.

   5. JSJay Shetty16:11

      ... and creating those boundaries.

   6. AMAmie McNee16:12

      No, no. [laughs]

   7. JSJay Shetty16:13

      Yeah. And, and I think we don't think about it that way sometimes.

   8. AMAmie McNee16:15

      Mm.

   9. JSJay Shetty16:15

      We think that, oh, we, we should have got over that feeling first. Like, I should be over the fact that my parents think this is a bad idea before I create. And it's like, well, no, you're probably gonna have to create while they think it's a bad idea.

   10. AMAmie McNee16:27

       Oh my God. We can't become, like, fully actualized before we create art, and art's gonna reveal all of your lightness but also a lot of your darkness. So there's gonna be so many things that come up as you dare to do the brave thing and create stuff. Like, you're gonna see a lot of narratives. You're gonna see a lot of insecurities because, again, making art's so vulnerable. You're just gonna see a lot of the hard things within you, and you can't wait till they're healed to begin creating. So yeah, do what you need to do. And for me, I needed to block every single person I could think of, and now everyone's unblocked.

   11. JSJay Shetty16:57

       [laughs]

   12. AMAmie McNee16:57

       But I needed that space away from eyes. I didn't want their perception of who they thought I was to interrupt my journey of who I was becoming.

   13. JSJay Shetty17:06

       Yes.

   14. AMAmie McNee17:06

       And so I claimed space for myself, and I invite artists to, however it looks, put boundaries in place so that you can do this work, and you can feel as safe as possible. I know you can't protect yourself entirely, but you can do a little bit so that you f- you know, feel a little more comfy or more cozy as you do the brave thing and start, you know, making-

   15. JSJay Shetty17:24

       [laughs]

   16. AMAmie McNee17:24

       ... some ideas.

9. 17:25 – 19:30

   Let Go of Needing External Validation

   1. JSJay Shetty17:25

      Yeah. I feel some of us have this feeling of, "I wish the people who loved me believed in me."

   2. AMAmie McNee17:32

      Oh, yeah.

   3. JSJay Shetty17:33

      Right? And I feel as artists, because you can have a softer heart, you're more empathetic, you're more in tune with some of these emotions and feelings, there's a sense of, "Why don't you believe in me? And if you believed in me, I could do it. And if you believed in me, then I might get there. And if you believed in me, then I'd feel better about it." How do you let go of those kind of expectations that we often have of the people around us?There's a heartful part of that, but really it's a hurtful part because it stops you from starting

   4. AMAmie McNee18:03

      Yeah. It's so hard. I speak to so many creatives who, whose closest people aren't backing them. I think when we commit to art, we often trigger a lot of people, and we trigger the artist within them that they squashed down and that they repressed. And so when we say, "Oh, I'm actually being incredibly brave and I've decided to write a book," we trigger a little part in them that says, "Well, I never let myself write a book. I thought you needed permission to write a book, and here you are just taking up space writing a book." And I don't know that they necessarily know that that's what's happening, but I feel like when we commit to art, a lot of people find that confronting. And so that's important for us to realize is it's not us, uh, it's often their inner child that just hasn't had a chance to express ourselves. Because we don't live in a world that really encourages art, that encourages creative expression. It's something to do when you're young, and it's something to do when you're retired. And when we dare to do it now, you know, in like the mid of life, like I think it's... People are like, "Oh, well, who gave you permission to do that?" And it's like, "Well, I did."

   5. JSJay Shetty19:03

      [laughs]

   6. AMAmie McNee19:04

      And a huge part of my journey has been permission giving. Like I thought I needed to wait for permission for the gatekeepers from publishers. I thought I needed someone to say, "You are now allowed to make art." And one of the biggest revelations, and again, it came through journaling, was, well, no, I'm just gonna give myself permission. And I didn't need it from my parents, I didn't need it from my friends, I just needed to literally be like, "I give myself permission to take this seriously." And it was the most profound permission slip I could have ever given myself, ever.

   7. JSJay Shetty19:29

      I

10. 19:30 – 24:31

    Everyone Just Wants to Be Seen and Heard

    1. JSJay Shetty19:30

       remember that as well for myself when I started to create videos eight years ago, and it was that same sense of feeling that before I did that, I was asking people to give me a job to do what I wanted to do, and I knew there wouldn't be an exact job for it, but I was even willing to sacrifice my art to take on a job that might evolve into the artistic version of that. And so I remember pitching myself as a tradie- trainee video producer at lots of companies in London, and being turned down because I didn't do communications at college, or I didn't do video production at college, at university. And then same thing with trying to meet editors of magazines and say, "Oh, maybe I can get in this way." And again, getting rejections. And then it was actually Raj who messaged me, I think it was like, gosh, like 2015 Christmastime, and he was like, "Yeah, you've been giving a lot of talks. We should get out there and just, you know, maybe we should record some stuff." And I was like, "I don't know. I haven't really made a video before." And I was like, "I haven't really got any scripts." And he was like, "Let's figure it out." And so I, I scribbled some stuff down that I'd been thinking about, and then we just went out there and we shot these four videos, and then we released them later on on YouTube. And it was the best feeling in the world. Like, I've never... I wish I could bottle up that feeling and give it to other people and... Well, well, you can with, with the work you're doing. Your book is that, uh, We Need Your Art, that's what the book is gonna do for people. It's gonna give people that feeling of freedom.

    2. AMAmie McNee20:57

       Yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty20:57

       And it was the first time I felt free, because I would constantly been waiting for someone to give me a job, give me a title, give me a position, give me an opportunity and a break. And you're so right. Like, as an artist, you're constantly waiting for someone to say, "Yes, your art is valid-

    4. AMAmie McNee21:12

       Yeah

    5. JSJay Shetty21:13

       ... it's valuable." And it's almost like how do you get to a point where... I want to ask you this because we almost oscillate between two ideologies, which is like you should just be happy making art, and you shouldn't want anyone to see it. And then on the other end it's like, well, you have to make sure people see it, otherwise what's the point of making it?

    6. AMAmie McNee21:32

       Mm.

    7. JSJay Shetty21:33

       And so people get scared, and this is partly why I love your work, because I think it really gets into the nuance of that.

    8. AMAmie McNee21:39

       Yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty21:39

       There's this feeling of like, well, it's weird to promote yourself, so I shouldn't promote myself, but then no one sees my art, and then I'm a starving artist.

    10. AMAmie McNee21:47

        Yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty21:47

        But maybe that's my badge of honor, and that's what makes me credible and valuable. And then there's the other side of I'm just gonna sell out and make what everyone else wants me to make. I'm gonna go with the clickbait trends, and I'm gonna do whatever it takes, but then I don't really like myself at the end of the day because that's not what I set out to do. How do you make sense of that when you're starting in the beginning and you're like, "Gosh, I don't know which way to go. I don't know how to figure it out"? How do you help people think about that spectrum?

    12. AMAmie McNee22:13

        This is such a nuanced conversation. I'm so glad you said that because it is so complicated, and it's so very valid to want to just make art for art's sake, to just want to play and create. In fact, I think that's an imperative part of every artist's journey. Like, have fun. Like, that's so important for us. But there are so many narratives around, you know, how to do art properly, and how you're meant to be an artist, and you should make a certain amount of money, and you should be showing up in this way. There are so many stories that I think mean that we start feeling... It, it can be incredibly stressful. Being an artist on social media is so stressful. How do I put myself out there? How am I meant to promote myself? Do I... Should I want to promote myself, or should this be a private practice? I think this is an in- intensely personal thing that you need to sit with and decide where you're at. But for me, my calling is to be seen, and I love supporting artists who want to be seen. And I think there's a, a weird amount of shame that comes from a creative who wants attention for their art. And so my new thing at the moment is to say, "I create art for the attention," because I create art to connect with people, and I think a lot of artists do. Like, we create because we want to show you, and it's a really beautiful thing to do, to make art and say, "Here, do you see yourself in this? Like, I made this. What do you... How do you find it?" And so I want to really validate creators who are creating stuff because they want to connect. I think we get this other story that is, again, a very valid story that says you should only want to make art for yourselfLike Rick Rubin talks about this a lot, and I love what he's saying because if we do get too focused on the external and we start thinking, "Okay. Well, I'm gonna make art only for other people," it can really muddy the waters. We get very confused, and we lose our internal, like, compass of what it is we wanna create. But I think there's this balance to be struck because, yes, we have to love the process. We have to love the, the act of art, of creating, but at the same time, it's okay to want to connect with other people. It's okay to wanna have a relationship with audience. It's okay to wanna be seen. It is so human to want to be seen, and I want artists to feel very validated that that is a beautiful and normal, almost holy part of this. I love artists that are out there asking people, "Hey, can you witness me? I made this thing. Will you see me?" Like, it just sets me alight. I'm like, "Yeah, I do wanna look at you. I want to see. I wanna give you my attention."

    13. JSJay Shetty24:30

        Yeah,

11. 24:31 – 26:28

    Stop Dismissing the Parts of You That Want More

    1. JSJay Shetty24:31

       and you're so right that so many artists, and, and I know I carried this at the beginning, there's a sense of shame-

    2. AMAmie McNee24:37

       Mm

    3. JSJay Shetty24:37

       ... and guilt in, well, am I less than if I want my art-

    4. AMAmie McNee24:41

       To want attention, yeah

    5. JSJay Shetty24:41

       ... to be seen? Am I, am I doing something wrong if I want my art to connect with people? Am I... And, and I agree with you that that can be such an excuse for us to not create and for us to not make, or we create, but then we play small, and we hide, and we kind of keep our work very, very separate because we want to... Or, or we say things like that, where we say, "Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, I don't really care about followers. I d- I don't really care about how many likes it gets," and inside, it's eating us-

    6. AMAmie McNee25:11

       Yeah

    7. JSJay Shetty25:12

       ... as opposed to accepting and saying, "Well, maybe I do care, and I know I don't care. There's, there's two sides of me." And, and I think I've always... I, I feel that balance that you speak of is so true because there's a part of me that cares about everyone listening to this podcast right now because I want to, because I wanna have a connection. I wanna create something of value for you that benefits your life and changes your life, and you'll listen to this, and it will be the reason three years from now you'll say, "I listened to that episode with Amie, and I started creating, and all of a sudden I'm writing a book, and my art's in a gallery," or whatever it may be for you.

    8. AMAmie McNee25:43

       Yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty25:43

       I want that feeling. I do.

    10. AMAmie McNee25:45

        Yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty25:45

        And at the same time, I don't care because I just wanna have a conversation with Amie. And so both of those things are true, but when we start denying parts of ourselves, it's almost like we start lying internally to ourselves, and when you do that, you then really disconnect.

    12. AMAmie McNee26:00

        There is such a duality to being a human being, and especially in being a creative, and I love that. Like, I, I care about my art impacting people, but I also wanna make sure that I'm making art that I want to make and that I'm not making art just for an audience, and these two things can be true at once. And we can honor both the fact that, yeah, I make art for the attention, and I also make art because I just love to tell stories. And these things are true at one time, and we gotta honor both those parts of ourselves.

    13. JSJay Shetty26:27

        You've done

12. 26:28 – 30:56

    Stuck in the Wrong Job? Try Small Creative Steps

    1. JSJay Shetty26:28

       a lot of different jobs-

    2. AMAmie McNee26:29

       [laughs]

    3. JSJay Shetty26:29

       ... on the way here. I believe it was like you've, you were a waitress at one point.

    4. AMAmie McNee26:33

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty26:34

       You were-

    6. AMAmie McNee26:34

       Very bad waitress

    7. JSJay Shetty26:35

       ... a trainer. You've done financial planning. I wanna hear-

    8. AMAmie McNee26:38

       I wouldn't say I did financial planning.

    9. JSJay Shetty26:40

       [laughs]

    10. AMAmie McNee26:40

        I was a personal assistant-

    11. JSJay Shetty26:42

        Okay

    12. AMAmie McNee26:42

        ... for a financial planner.

    13. JSJay Shetty26:43

        Right.

    14. AMAmie McNee26:44

        So I was financial adjacent. Terri-

    15. JSJay Shetty26:46

        [laughs]

    16. AMAmie McNee26:46

        Terrible at that job too.

    17. JSJay Shetty26:48

        But I wanna hear about that journey because I think that's what I find fascinating about artists.

    18. AMAmie McNee26:52

        Yeah.

    19. JSJay Shetty26:52

        Like, as an artist, you're always having to pay the bills, finding a way to solve this until your art becomes-

    20. AMAmie McNee26:57

        Yeah

    21. JSJay Shetty26:57

        ... you know, enough, quote... Anyone who's... I'm doing, uh, air quotes next to "enough" to, to be recognized, et cetera. Walk me through that part of your life where you're, like, doing things that keep you afloat and at the same time trying to keep your art alive. What was that like? Because I think a lot of people listening right now, they may be working a 12-hour job a day. They're working three jobs a day just to survive, but they're like, they've got this skill in art, and really when they get home at the end of the day, they just wanna switch on-

    22. AMAmie McNee27:24

        Of course

    23. JSJay Shetty27:24

        ... a TV show and, and escape and switch out. Like, how did you keep both alive when it wasn't your main thing?

    24. AMAmie McNee27:31

        Yeah. I mean, one of the things that makes me angriest is how much life robs us of our t- o- o- our art time. Like, I want so many of us to have the time, the energy particularly, to come home and to create. But for so many of us, it's just, it's not possible, and balancing a regular work and a creative life is hard. And I, I really wanna validate any creative who's navigating this because I think we get a bit of the hustle narrative, where it's like, "Just make it work." It is hard to balance your creativity and your real-life job and, you know, caretaking and being a kid and just being an adult in general. Like, I can... I... It's huge, and I really struggled with it. Um, I was waitressing bec- I was doing all these little jobs 'cause I was trying to fit art around them. So I was waitressing because I, I could... then I could work after 3:00 PM maybe. I was a personal trainer because I would train clients in the morning and the evening, and I'd try and write in the middle of the day. Like, I was trying to choose jobs that would work for me. But it was exhausting, and especially because these jobs were so, like, the antithesis of Amie. Like, I'm not made to serve people coffee. I can't hold the skim milk situation in my head. Like, I, I don't care, so I don't pay attention, so I'm not a very good waitress. I'm exhausted by the end of my shift. Then I get home to my writing, and I think, "Okay. Well, I've gotta write 2- to 3,000 words. This is too much." And so I would let myself down. I would feel like I betrayed myself, and I would get in patterns of, of constantly feeling like I've betrayed my inner artist. I've betrayed my dreams. I can never reach up to this level. And I think I see it all the time. Like, artists are like, "Okay. Because I didn't write at all this week, okay, I'm gonna... Weekend, I'm gonna do..." I'm very biased to writers, but any sort of creating. "I'm gonna create for, like, six hours to make up for it." And then they can't do it because they're exhausted, and they're in this pattern of self-betrayal. And they start not trusting themselves that they're gonna follow through. But I had a real breakthrough when I decided that I was only gonna write 300 to 500 words a day, just baby steps.

    25. JSJay Shetty29:28

        [laughs]

    26. AMAmie McNee29:28

        Small steps.

    27. JSJay Shetty29:29

        Yeah.

    28. AMAmie McNee29:30

        I-Realized that that was a promise I could keep. 300 words could be done in like 20 minutes, 15 minutes. They could be crap was another big thing. Think we demand huge amounts of time for our art when we're already exhausted, and we're like, "And they better be perfect."

    29. JSJay Shetty29:45

        [laughs]

    30. AMAmie McNee29:45

        And it's so unfair, so unfair, and it, and also it's a recipe for absolute disaster, and you're not gonna be able to finish your creative projects because these working conditions are horrendous. So it was 300 shitty words was my bare minimum. I also had a bare maximum so that I couldn't keep going, so I could contain my energy, so I wasn't allowed to write more than 1,000 words, and that's how I wrote my books. That's how I still write my books, 300 to 500 words a day, and it's so doable, and when you come home from an absolutely hectic day, you can say, "Okay, 300 words," 300 potentially crappy words, or 10 minutes on the guitar, or I want to take three pictures with my iPhone. You know, whatever it is, it's just really small, really doable, and then you start accumulating wins. So if you've done that like three, four times a week, you're like, "Okay, maybe I could do that again next week." And by the, you know, end of the year, you have a portfolio of your creations, and you're becoming a, you know, you've improved as an artist. You've got something to show for yourself. Some of you will have a finished book if you've chosen to write. We ignore the magic of the baby steps so frequently because I think we're just such a go all in or go home culture.
13. 30:56 – 33:11

    How Perfectionism Fuels Procrastination

    1. JSJay Shetty30:56

       that, you're so right. That, you know, go all in or go home culture just, it blocks us the most because it's also this comes from like a bit of ego where it's like, "I wanna be the best at this." Like, "This has to be incredible." And it's almost like, well, maybe I'm not gonna be the best at this the first time I try or for the first year or maybe for the first 10 years, and that's okay because I'm just trying. I'm just learning. But that requires a sense of detachment and egolessness to be like, "It's okay to make bad stuff." And I know you-

    2. AMAmie McNee31:26

       Yeah

    3. JSJay Shetty31:26

       ... are the biggest proponent of this.

    4. AMAmie McNee31:28

       Shitty art.

    5. JSJay Shetty31:29

       Yeah, and that's really been validating for me.

    6. AMAmie McNee31:31

       [laughs]

    7. JSJay Shetty31:31

       Like, every time I read you say something like that or write something like that, like, yes, thank you, Amie, for-

    8. AMAmie McNee31:35

       Yeah

    9. JSJay Shetty31:36

       ... giving me permission. Walk, walk me through how we... Because I think we oscillate between procrastination and perfectionism, and so this kind of solves both of them really.

    10. AMAmie McNee31:45

        Yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty31:45

        But walk me through that.

    12. AMAmie McNee31:47

        Yeah, they're so closely related, procrastination and perfectionism. One causes the other in such a, like perfectionism will mean that you procrastinate. So my ethos is, like, shitty art. Like, if you can't point to a giant pile of shitty art that you've made recently, then you're not doing the work. And I think so many artists see that as a sign of failure, but to me, that is a sign of, like, giant success. We have to connect to that messy, playful part of ourselves when we create. That's when the best art is made. I watch artists finesse and finesse, and they're trying to get it so right, and they're, like, narrowing and narrowing their point of view, and they're getting so constrained, and they're losing, I think, their own creative voice almost by these huge restrictions to be perfect. Whereas if you just say, "Make shitty art," and I often do this at workshops. I say, "I got three minutes. Just make something shitty." And the cool stuff that comes out of that, shitty poems, shitty drawings, there's also that little element of magic to it because when you just let yourself play like a child, it's so fun. There's a lightness to it. Ideas come in. Like, perfectionism is rigidity, and we think perfectionism is the answer. It's like, oh, if I'm, if I'm a perfectionist, it's like that will get me to where I wanna go as a creative. It's like the one fault we're allowed to have, but perfectionism will destroy your creative career. It will destroy it. We need mess. We need play. That is when you will become the best artist you can.

14. 33:11 – 34:17

    Embrace the Beautiful Chaos of Art

    1. JSJay Shetty33:11

       Yeah, and, and, and that's actually often where I find the seeds of great ideas come from.

    2. AMAmie McNee33:15

       Yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty33:16

       Like, you, you did something bad, and you did something random, but there was one word or one line of it-

    4. AMAmie McNee33:20

       Exactly, yeah

    5. JSJay Shetty33:20

       ... or there was one dot or whatever it is for you, there's that one thing that you go, "Oh, well, that was the real thing. That's the thing I wanna create now." And all of a sudden it sparks it. But if you didn't allow for that messiness-

    6. AMAmie McNee33:31

       It was never gonna happen

    7. JSJay Shetty33:32

       ... you would never have seen it. You would never have found it, and that to me is, is definitely why I crave more play and more messiness in my life because there's a sense of the, the profound will only come from playfulness. It's not gonna come from trying to be profound or create something profound.

    8. AMAmie McNee33:49

       Yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty33:50

       It doesn't, it doesn't originate that way.

    10. AMAmie McNee33:51

        I think so many of us think that art is like a child thing, and so we're trying to be like adults creating, and adults would create in very structured ways. Like, we'd have rules. You know, we'd follow an expert, and we do exactly what they say, and we try and make art a very responsible and neat thing.

    11. JSJay Shetty34:07

        [laughs]

    12. AMAmie McNee34:07

        But art is like that inner child playing, and art is messy, and it should be a kind of a chaotic experience.

    13. JSJay Shetty34:13

        Yeah.

    14. AMAmie McNee34:13

        We've gotta invite that back into our, into our lives.

    15. JSJay Shetty34:16

        Yes. I do this

15. 34:17 – 36:44

    What the 30 Circles Test Reveals About Creativity

    1. JSJay Shetty34:17

       activity that I got introduced to many years ago. It's, it's known as the 30 Circles Test.

    2. AMAmie McNee34:22

       Mm.

    3. JSJay Shetty34:22

       Don't know if you've ever seen it.

    4. AMAmie McNee34:23

       No.

    5. JSJay Shetty34:23

       So it's basically a A4 piece of paper with 30 circles printed on it, and I often hand it to executives at corporate coaching and corporate clients that I have, and the task is you have to uniquely fill and complete and use 30 circles in 30 seconds. And the clock starts, and everyone starts scribbling away doing their thing, and then clock stops at 30 seconds, and I ask them what have they done. F- Over 50% of the audience will have done one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight to 30.

    6. AMAmie McNee34:52

       [laughs]

    7. JSJay Shetty34:52

       Or A, B, C, D, E, F, G to Z, uh, Z to A, B, C again, and so they will have done that. That's what f- over 50% of the audience-

    8. AMAmie McNee35:00

       Wow

    9. JSJay Shetty35:01

       ... has done. Some of the audience has done squiggles, just random-

    10. AMAmie McNee35:03

        Yeah, yeah

    11. JSJay Shetty35:03

        ... squiggles, nothing there, maybe noughts and crosses, or they've, some people have done emojis, and some people have done, like, footballs and-

    12. AMAmie McNee35:10

        All right

    13. JSJay Shetty35:10

        ... soccer balls and pizzas or whatever, like, using circles.

    14. AMAmie McNee35:13

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    15. JSJay Shetty35:14

        And that's generally runs the gamut of 99% of the audience.

    16. AMAmie McNee35:17

        Yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty35:18

        And maybe in the adult side you get one, but they also did this with lots of 10-year-olds, and I tried it o- out with 10-year-olds as well, and some of the stuff that comes out is unbelievable.

    18. AMAmie McNee35:29

        So cool.

    19. JSJay Shetty35:30

        And so this one girl had done all this, like, intricate shading on it, and when we asked her what it was, she said it was a chess board from a bird's-eye view. And when you ask another kid what it was, they, um-Had put like a line around it and put a little thing on top, and they said it was a bag of marbles, and they put $5 on, on the bag of marbles. And this was my favorite one. Someone had done all this intricate shading, this little girl, and put all this like, uh, curves and all this stuff. And when I asked her what it was, she said it was bubble wrap.

    20. AMAmie McNee35:58

        Oh my God.

    21. JSJay Shetty35:58

        And, and it was so creative.

    22. AMAmie McNee36:01

        Yes.

    23. JSJay Shetty36:01

        And-

    24. AMAmie McNee36:01

        It's a genius.

    25. JSJay Shetty36:02

        Yes, genius. And, and it's so interesting. What you're saying is so true that when adults hear 30 circles, 30 seconds, we go logical brain-

    26. AMAmie McNee36:10

        Structure, yeah

    27. JSJay Shetty36:11

        ... structure, completion, deadline. So we switch off the part of our brain that has any-

    28. AMAmie McNee36:17

        Yeah. And can you ... can imagine how many of those adults are thinking, "There is a right and wrong way to do this."

    29. JSJay Shetty36:22

        Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

    30. AMAmie McNee36:22

        "And I'm gonna be marked on it." Whereas these kids are just ... Like, it's so beautiful, so playful. And when we talk about creative genius, I think we often think of some of, you know, the greats like Mozart or something, but like look to the kids 'cause they are finding out fun stuff.
16. 36:44 – 39:07

    How to Share Your Art Without Losing Yourself

    1. JSJay Shetty36:44

       How do you start to structure and strategize art and promote it in a way that then it does allow you to ... Because it's almost like we're trying to become adult about our art-

    2. AMAmie McNee36:55

       Mm

    3. JSJay Shetty36:55

       ... not adult about how we market, promote, and strategize our art.

    4. AMAmie McNee36:58

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty36:58

       If that makes sense.

    6. AMAmie McNee36:59

       Yeah, yeah.

    7. JSJay Shetty37:00

       Like, it's almost like the art should remain playful and messy and truly creative, but then how we get that art out there should potentially have structure and strategy and-

    8. AMAmie McNee37:10

       Yeah

    9. JSJay Shetty37:10

       ... and focus.

    10. AMAmie McNee37:10

        I'm gonna disagree with you.

    11. JSJay Shetty37:11

        I wanna hear your thoughts.

    12. AMAmie McNee37:13

        I think there's a lot of room for mess, for playfulness, for the chaos, the traditional creative chaos in marketing, putting your art out there. Think we get really stuck on, okay, well, I've, I've made my art. It's incredible. It's beautiful. It has my inner child like infused within it. Now I'm gonna market it, and now I need branding colors, and I need a social media scheme.

    13. JSJay Shetty37:33

        Oh, I agree with that.

    14. AMAmie McNee37:33

        And I need to be, I need to be doing, you know, four to five consistent posts a week and three reels, and all of a sudden that like ... I see it. Like, artists just shrivel. Like, we don't thrive under those kind of circumstances. I think there's so much room for ... I think marketing is an art form in itself.

    15. JSJay Shetty37:51

        Agreed.

    16. AMAmie McNee37:51

        And therefore, I think that when we put our art out there, when we promote our art, there is room for mess, and there's still ... Like, shitty art should still be a part of it. Like, we should still be playing around, seeing what works, having fun when we promote our art as well. I, I think artists feel so claustrophobic when they feel like they have to niche down, or they feel like they have to, you know, m- neaten up their Instagram grid. Like, be messy in the promotion process. Like, we're out there looking for real humans to connect with, not, not brands, not companies. I want to connect with artists who are real human people. And so I want to invite artists to bring that mess into the marketing process as well.

    17. JSJay Shetty38:31

        I love that.

    18. AMAmie McNee38:31

        But I think it's very easy, like, for our perfectionist to flare up when it comes to sharing our art because not only have we just done the bravest thing, which is make art, now we have to share it.

    19. JSJay Shetty38:40

        [laughs]

    20. AMAmie McNee38:40

        And so perfectionism is gonna flare hugely because we're like, "Okay, I've gotta protect myself 'cause this is a moment where I, like, put it out there, and people are gonna see me as the artist. They're gonna see my art. They're gonna judge it." So we start trying to structure it really heavily in order to feel safe, and I just think we lose so much of the magic when we do that. I wanna see the artist. I wanna see the human. I wanna see a mess. I want to see you playing. I wanna see ... I just wanna see grit-

    21. JSJay Shetty39:05

        [laughs]

17. 39:07 – 40:29

    Real Artists Are Meant to Break the Rules

    1. JSJay Shetty39:07

       I love that

    2. AMAmie McNee39:07

       ... when it comes to promoting it.

    3. JSJay Shetty39:07

       No, I actually agree with you.

    4. AMAmie McNee39:09

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty39:09

       I actually agree with you. I definitely ... When I was doing my structure and strategy, maybe I used the wrong words. I definitely don't mean ... definitely don't like the idea of people having to, you know, like you said, um, choose brand colors and be organized-

    6. AMAmie McNee39:22

       Yeah, very neat

    7. JSJay Shetty39:22

       ... and like ... Yeah, no, not in that way at all. And, and, and I couldn't agree with you more that often that's the stuff that stifles even more creativity because you're now playing a game that-

    8. AMAmie McNee39:32

       Definitely, yeah

    9. JSJay Shetty39:32

       ... that you hope to figure out.

    10. AMAmie McNee39:34

        Yeah. I see artists ... You see it everywhere online, especially in the space I'm in 'cause I'm so in, you know, the creative space. Artists are just so tired of, of having to show up in specific ways online in order to please the algorithm. Like, there's a weariness that I see in creatives that's so heartbreaking, and I just wanna say, like, I ... First of all, I know it's hard to navigate these systems, but second of all, break all the rules. Rebel. Like, artists are inherent, like, rebels.

    11. JSJay Shetty40:01

        Rebels, yeah.

    12. AMAmie McNee40:01

        We break the rules. We've already broken loads of rules because we've created stuff in a world that wants us to stay small and compliant and silent. Now it's time to break the rules with how we put our art out there. Do whatever you wanna do. Do what makes you happy. Do what feels creative rather than, you know, constantly obeying what's gonna go ... you know, what, what we think might go viral or what reels are preferred by the algorithm. This stuff is making us feel like shit, and it's not ... I don't know that it's helping us.

18. 40:29 – 41:54

    What to do When No One Sees Your Art

    1. JSJay Shetty40:29

       And, and how do you feel like if someone's doing that, but then they're also, like, going months and years without feeling like their work's being seen-

    2. AMAmie McNee40:35

       Yeah, it's so hard

    3. JSJay Shetty40:35

       ... and then they're battling the other side? Yeah.

    4. AMAmie McNee40:37

       Yeah, it is incredibly difficult. And there's nothing ... To me, there's nothing more painful than when you're sharing your art and nobody is seeing it. Like, there is an exquisite pain when it comes to that silence and navigating like putting something out there that you've just created and having no one respond. Like, for me, when I was navigating that, like, it ... I was very, very upset by it, and I felt almost ashamed by how upset I was by it. Again, it's that idea that artists shouldn't want attention, but I wanted attention. I wanted people to see and read my books. I wanted to be witnessed. So when artists aren't seen, and when we're like, "Okay, I'm gonna break all the rules," but it feels like by breaking the rules, you get missed, or you get put to the side, that can be incredibly difficult. I think there's a way to kinda tow the line and play the game, but at the same time, make sure that it feels good to you. Certainly for the way that I like to share my art, I don't want to do what's going viral. But I will still consider like, you know, how it's gonna impact my audience and what people have enjoyed of my content lately. Like, there's a game that I'm playing, and it's a balance that I like to ... There's a line I like to walk that makes it so it's still creatively fulfilling for me, but I'm not going to obey whatever the next niche thing I have to do in order to be big on social media.

    5. JSJay Shetty41:53

       Yeah. Yeah, no.

    6. AMAmie McNee41:53

       Do you find

19. 41:54 – 44:19

    If You Hate It, Stop Doing It

    1. AMAmie McNee41:54

       that, like, in terms of your creation?

    2. JSJay Shetty41:55

       I mean, totally. I mean, we-In the beginning, you know, for me, the videos that I started with were me just freestyling almost-

    3. AMAmie McNee42:04

       Yeah

    4. JSJay Shetty42:04

       ... uh, kind of rough words, poetry on topics that I loved.

    5. AMAmie McNee42:08

       Mm.

    6. JSJay Shetty42:09

       They went viral by chance.

    7. AMAmie McNee42:10

       Yes.

    8. JSJay Shetty42:10

       Like, they weren't crafted for a particular time length or a particular editing-

    9. AMAmie McNee42:16

       Yeah

    10. JSJay Shetty42:16

        ... pattern because I didn't know them. I j- I was just making videos, and, and they went viral, and people loved them. And then I made more of those because I enjoyed them, but the day I stopped enjoying making them, we stopped.

    11. AMAmie McNee42:27

        Yeah, beautiful.

    12. JSJay Shetty42:28

        And then we created a new format where I'd seen a lot of comedians who would do sketches, and they'd be hilarious sketches of real life. I was like, "Well, what if I did sketches of real life? Like, what if I was to create real-life experiences as dramatic performances with messaging?" So we did those, and I loved it, and those went viral. And then there was a day I didn't enjoy making those anymore. I felt like I was trying too hard to-

    13. AMAmie McNee42:53

        Yeah

    14. JSJay Shetty42:54

        ... to come up with storylines. And then so we stopped doing that. And then I started the podcast, which I'm still doing today because it feels like the most realist, fluid form because there is no set structure to make a interview go viral. It's truly a-

    15. AMAmie McNee43:08

        Yeah. [laughs]

    16. JSJay Shetty43:09

        ... a deep conversation. It's far less... There's not a science to that as much.

    17. AMAmie McNee43:13

        Yeah, I love that.

    18. JSJay Shetty43:14

        And, and if there is, I don't enjoy it because I choose not to ask... I have a rule that we have of not to ask gossip-based bet questions, clickbait questions or-

    19. AMAmie McNee43:22

        Yeah

    20. JSJay Shetty43:23

        ... because that's how we protect our art-

    21. AMAmie McNee43:25

        Yeah

    22. JSJay Shetty43:25

        ... in that I want the conversations to be true and genuine and sincere. But basically, when I've stopped finding something fulfilling as art, I've stopped doing it because I've found that if I keep doing something I hate, I'm gonna end up hating parts of myself-

    23. AMAmie McNee43:38

        Oh my God. Yeah

    24. JSJay Shetty43:39

        ... and I'm gonna feel disconnected from myself.

    25. AMAmie McNee43:41

        We get a lot of bitter artists when we have, you know, a practice that we're doing, whether that's in the creation process or whether it's when we share it. If we c- if we don't like it and we keep doing it, we are going to become bitter. And we see a lot of bitter artists out there who are just so angry at, at what the world has made them do, you know, whether that's to sell their books or-

    26. JSJay Shetty43:59

        Yes

    27. AMAmie McNee43:59

        ... sell their art or s- be seen on social media, and they're so pissed that they had to sacrifice their creative integrity in order to be seen, and it just cannot be worth it. I just, I want creatives to create with what feels good, exactly like you, Jay. It's such a beautiful example. When it stops feeling good, stop doing it. Try something else.

    28. JSJay Shetty44:18

        Yeah.

20. 44:19 – 46:40

    Don’t Chase Virality, Make Meaningful Art

    1. JSJay Shetty44:19

       'Cause it w- it did feel good at one point.

    2. AMAmie McNee44:20

       Oh, of course.

    3. JSJay Shetty44:20

       And it served.

    4. AMAmie McNee44:21

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty44:21

       And it was new and fresh, and it was creative. And the funny thing is there's parts of me that wanna go back to some of those now.

    6. AMAmie McNee44:26

       Yeah, return.

    7. JSJay Shetty44:26

       So it's like, because I'm like, "Oh, I used to love those videos eight years ago. Maybe if I reconnected to them-

    8. AMAmie McNee44:30

       Mm

    9. JSJay Shetty44:30

       ... I'd come at them from a really genuine place." And so I can now go back home feeling happy rather than go back home feeling bitter because I feel forced to be there.

    10. AMAmie McNee44:40

        Yes.

    11. JSJay Shetty44:40

        And so I feel like when you let the algorithm dictate what you make, you feel forced to be there, and it's almost like your parents forcing you to come to family dinner, and you don't wanna be there.

    12. AMAmie McNee44:50

        Exactly.

    13. JSJay Shetty44:51

        And I love what you said about artists being rebels because I remember when I wrote Think Like a Monk, my first book, and 14 out of 17 imprints that I took meetings with at different publishers told me not to call it Think Like a Monk because they were like, "Jay, who wants to think like a monk? No one wants to do that." And it was this big thing that I remember this conversation, and I w- we were talking earlier about when you're writing your first book, you don't know how much to push for and how much not to.

    14. AMAmie McNee45:15

        Mm-hmm.

    15. JSJay Shetty45:15

        That was something I pushed for wholeheartedly, and I'm so glad I did.

    16. AMAmie McNee45:19

        I'm so glad you did.

    17. JSJay Shetty45:21

        And, you know, it's so interesting because same with my second book, I was like, I had this view of an artistic cover, and I pushed for it again because I believed in it so deeply. And I could have gone for the cover that they thought would sell the most or whatever, and it was never that. It was always like, I wanna create something that I think is beautiful and powerful-

    18. AMAmie McNee45:39

        I love that

    19. JSJay Shetty45:39

        ... and builds a movement.

    20. AMAmie McNee45:41

        Yeah. I think we've been taught to, we've gotta create the thing that's gonna go the most viral. But what if we create something that impacts, you know, 100 people? Like, that's still incredibly worth it. I think we're always aiming for virality. We're always aiming for, like, again, what's that? Big or g- go big or go home. Like, what if we make art and share it in a way that, no, it doesn't go viral, but it connects, and it m- and it impacts, and it maybe it only finds one or two people, but it does its thing, and it, and it resonates with them. I feel like artists are always told, you know, "Go viral. Be Taylor Swift or be a starving artist," and it's this binary that doesn't serve us. I talk a lot about, like, I want the, I want this to be the era of the middle-class artist-

    21. JSJay Shetty46:21

        [laughs]

    22. AMAmie McNee46:22

        ... where it's like, we don't need millions and millions of dollars. We need an, a, you know, a stable income, and we get to enjoy a stable income. Um, and we're not the starving artist, and we're not J.Lo, but we are thriving, joyful, you know, financially secure artists. Like, that's what I want for us, and I think it's much more possible than we realize.

21. 46:40 – 50:10

    Yes, You Can Make Money from Your Art

    1. JSJay Shetty46:40

       You just talked about how you want this culture of middle-class artists, which I love that. Like, that's such a, such a great vision-

    2. AMAmie McNee46:47

       Yeah

    3. JSJay Shetty46:47

       ... and such a great mission that you're on.

    4. AMAmie McNee46:48

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty46:48

       Like, I really like that because, like you said, I think for so many years we've been told art's not a real job. It won't make you a living. What's the point? And we've subscribed to that, and then you do a safe job, and then you realize you left your dream back there.

    6. AMAmie McNee47:01

       Yeah.

    7. JSJay Shetty47:01

       Or you got lucky enough, and art did become a really big thing, but then maybe you lost touch with the art you wanted to create, and you felt like you sold out. And I've always described it as the selfish artist or the sellout artist, and it's like the selfish artist only creates them for themselves, but then they don't ever get to feel what it feels like to share their art. And the sellout artist only creates for the audience, and then they never create what they truly want, and the balance is in between.

    8. AMAmie McNee47:26

       Yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty47:27

       But when it comes to monetizing your art, I feel like people are scared of asking for money. We're scared of valuing our art accurately, and then at the same time, we're struggling to pay our bills at points in our life. How do you encourage people to think about monetizing their art and becoming a middle-class artist?

    10. AMAmie McNee47:45

        There's so much shame around, for all of us, whatever we're doing, there's so much shame around money. But I think for artists, there are so many narratives. There's this almost glamour around being the poor artist, and then as you say, then there's the glamour around being, like, the super mega famous artist, and there's no healthy story, um, about an artist who gets paid for what they do and can live, you know, a sustainable life. And, you know, there's a value exchange, and it feels good, and the exchange of money feels good. And I feel like for me personally on my journey, like-It's been the most beautiful thing to realize that selling my art has felt really good. And selling my books has felt so aligned. I know that my stories are going to serve them, and there's a value exchange, and they pay me for my stories, or they pay me for my words. And it's felt really beautiful, like a very, um, like a relationship. It's felt very intimate. It's felt very aligned. And I always thought that it was gonna feel icky, or it was gonna feel yucky, or that I was gonna feel like I was taking advantage of them or manipulating them. But I've found a space where it feels good, and I want artists to understand that selling your art can feel good. And so I want artists to start getting comfortable with the idea that art is valuable. And perhaps that's maybe the s- part of the problem, like we don't understand that art is valuable. People think, "Oh, you know, food is valuable because it feeds me," or, "You know, I need a computer because I need to do work on it," but we don't really understand the value of art. And it is incredibly hard to put a monetary value on art. I mean, I have so many conversations with creatives being like, "How do I put a m- like a dollar sign on my art?" And that is hard. It can feel very arbitrary. But art has value. Art brings so much value to other people, and the artist needs to learn that. Because I think there's too many creatives going around out there thinking, "Oh, I'm just ... I'm making decoration for the world," or, "I'm just doing something so silly. Uh, I'm telling stories. I'm making movies, but it's just ... You know, it's, it doesn't make a difference." Art makes a difference, and we're getting some very cool research coming in about how art impacts us physically, how it impacts our mental health, how it impacts our communities. Like, art changes us, but artists don't recognize that, and we still think we're doing something frivolous when in reality we are doing something incredibly profound that is making real change, political change, personal change, biological change to other people around us. You deserve money for that. That story needs to sink in, and then that value exchange is gonna feel

22. 50:10 – 53:12

    Every Creative Act Has Value So Honor It

    1. AMAmie McNee50:10

       so much better.

    2. JSJay Shetty50:11

       So powerful. I'm so glad you made it so easy and clear, and it's so true. I have so many friends who are artists who do something, and it's quite easy for them-

    3. AMAmie McNee50:19

       Mm

    4. JSJay Shetty50:19

       ... or it's effortless for them.

    5. AMAmie McNee50:20

       Yes.

    6. JSJay Shetty50:20

       And then they're scared, and there's this beautiful old made-up story that I heard a long time ago where it's not true at all, but, but it's, it's got a nice message. And Picasso walks into the marketplace, and this lady sees Picasso, and she says, "Picasso, will you draw me a portrait?" And he says, "Sure, I'll draw you a portrait." So he grabs a pen and paper, and he draws a portrait of her, and he gives it back to her, and she says, "Picasso, that took 30 seconds," like, and he's like, "It took me 30 years to do that in 30 seconds."

    7. AMAmie McNee50:48

       Yeah.

    8. JSJay Shetty50:48

       And it's like when you're working as an artist, you're almost recognizing and reminding yourself that when you're putting a value on your work, you're putting a value on all the training, all the pain-

    9. AMAmie McNee50:57

       Yes

    10. JSJay Shetty50:57

        ... all the stress, all of that that went into that piece that's maybe have taken you 20 hours, maybe it took you two hours, maybe it took you two minutes. But there's so much experience that went into that piece. And so whether it was a quote on Instagram or whether it was a piece of art-

    11. AMAmie McNee51:13

        Mm

    12. JSJay Shetty51:13

        ... we're always valuing how long it took us to do the thing, not how long-

    13. AMAmie McNee51:17

        The work

    14. JSJay Shetty51:17

        ... it took us to live what it took to do that thing.

    15. AMAmie McNee51:20

        I also think we think that because art can be joyful or easy to make, that it shouldn't be worth money.

    16. JSJay Shetty51:25

        Yes.

    17. AMAmie McNee51:26

        Because I had a really good time writing my book, I should give away it for free. Um-

    18. JSJay Shetty51:29

        Yes

    19. AMAmie McNee51:30

        ... which is ridiculous.

    20. JSJay Shetty51:31

        Mm-hmm.

    21. AMAmie McNee51:31

        I think we, we almost feel like we've got it too good. Could I love the process and be paid for it? Yes, you could, because your art has a lot of value, and you deserve to be paid for it. Again, I, I want artists to understand that what you are making has value. You deserve money for it.

    22. JSJay Shetty51:49

        Yeah. Yeah. No, and I, and I think about it all the time, like there's also this feeling of if you're doing something truly to help people, it should be absolutely free.

    23. AMAmie McNee51:58

        Yeah.

    24. JSJay Shetty51:58

        And, and that's a really interesting one. Go on. You have a reaction. [laughs] I can see your reaction to that, so like ...

    25. AMAmie McNee52:04

        I think it happens for artists a lot too, and I ... We ... I get a lot of creatives telling me that, oh, their family member's asking for free art, or, you know, "If you really wanted the world to change, you would give it away for free." Lots of narratives, again, constantly asking artists to work for free, uh, devaluing creatives, devaluing artists, and it's so painful because it's, it's kind of a seductive narrative. I actually really want to hear what you have to think about it. But this idea that it's only generous if there's not a value exchange is just so cruel, and it leaves artists ... First of all, it perpetuates the scarcity story and that artists are poor, that we have no money, which means we end up not creating that much, which means we don't have the money, which means we're working multiple jobs, which means we can't create the art. Like, if we don't support and nourish artists with money, we lose artists. So we need to be paying our artists. If you want more art, if you want an art-- a world that is filled with books and movies and creations and musics and beautiful gardens and good food, we need to support our artists. And I still think that when we put our art up for sale, and when we sell it, it is a profoundly generous act, especially when we ask for money for it in return.

23. 53:12 – 57:39

    Charging for Your Art Is Not Selling Out

    1. JSJay Shetty53:12

       Yeah. You asked my opinion on it. It's similar to yours. I remember at one point in my life, I was... I had 100 million views, and I was four months away from being broke.

    2. AMAmie McNee53:21

       Mm.

    3. JSJay Shetty53:21

       And I was starting to think, "Okay, I'm gonna have to go back to work. I'm gonna have to get a job again." And I know that the job I would probably get would be demanding because that's the job I'd get with my education and everything I have, and therefore I'd probably not be able to do much of this anymore. And that means if I can't make this anymore, but the 100 million views I have, the comments and everything, I'm reading a, "Jay, this really helped me. This changed my life. I shared it." I ... Like, all the comments I'm reading are like people have benefited by this, but I'm not gonna be able to do that anymore because I don't know how. And I remember going through that whole process, and I was thinking, "Well, wait a minute." And, and at that time I was shaming and guilting myself for even thinking that I could charge for something. And I was like, "Well, but how do I do that?" And like, but people are getting value from it. But then I really want to do it for free because that's how I was trained to always... And obviously with my monk background-

    4. AMAmie McNee54:12

       Yeah

    5. JSJay Shetty54:12

       ... it's like everything was for free, and everything was charity work. And so I really had that conditioning. And then I thought to myself, "Well, if I give up what I love-... that helps people and serves people, and I can't do it any longer, is that the world I wanna live in? And it was a really clear answer where it was like, well, no, I wanna live in a world where I can do this forever. I can help more people do what they wanna do.

    6. AMAmie McNee54:35

       Yeah.

    7. JSJay Shetty54:35

       We can even create teams that will all be living a purposeful life, that they wanna, excuse me, that they wanna live in.

    8. AMAmie McNee54:41

       Yeah.

    9. JSJay Shetty54:41

       And we'll be able to hopefully impact so many more people who will create amazing journeys for themselves. And I'm so glad that despite any criticism, shame, guilt that comes with that path, I'm glad I made that choice because I'm far happier having pursued that than I would've been if I just went, "Okay, well-

    10. AMAmie McNee54:59

        I'm done

    11. JSJay Shetty54:59

        ... I'm done now because I can't afford to do this anymore."

    12. AMAmie McNee55:01

        What a huge loss for the whole world if you would've been like, "I'm done."

    13. JSJay Shetty55:04

        And for myself.

    14. AMAmie McNee55:04

        And for you, yeah.

    15. JSJay Shetty55:05

        And, and, and the creative of, like, just also just not just thinking about, well, I can't make more if I don't have enough to make with.

    16. AMAmie McNee55:15

        Yes.

    17. JSJay Shetty55:15

        Like, who am I gonna pay to edit the video?

    18. AMAmie McNee55:16

        Exactly.

    19. JSJay Shetty55:16

        How am I gonna film this? And how, how... all of this. And there was s- even, even with the podcast, which, which is free, and I always thank everyone for us allowing to have our sponsors and our ad partners, which is the way we're able to do this, and we're so s- I always said this to everyone, um, well, not everyone. I, I say this to my friends behind closed doors. I'm like, "We're so selective over which brands we work with, which companies we partner with in order to present that to our community," and we probably leave more on the table than we even make-

    20. AMAmie McNee55:42

        Mm

    21. JSJay Shetty55:42

        ... because of that desire to get it right. And I'm not saying that to sound holier than thou or sound... What I'm saying is everything's done intentionally, and I think if it, if it's done intentionally, there's a heart there, and there's a, a truth there of wanting to serve and wanting things to be good.

    22. AMAmie McNee55:58

        Yeah.

    23. JSJay Shetty55:59

        And the podcast is absolutely free, but there are certain things that may not be if that person wants to hold that integrity-

    24. AMAmie McNee56:06

        Yeah

    25. JSJay Shetty56:06

        ... for themselves.

    26. AMAmie McNee56:07

        I love that.

    27. JSJay Shetty56:08

        If that makes any sense.

    28. AMAmie McNee56:08

        No, it makes a huge amount of sense.

    29. JSJay Shetty56:10

        Yeah.

    30. AMAmie McNee56:10

        I think artists are just constantly... People always wanna call them out for selling out, and I don't know why we're so vulnerable to that narrative, because you don't go up to your accountant, who's doing, you know, important work, and say, "Why are you being paid for this?" We don't go up to, we don't ask other people, "Why do you want money for your job?" But we ask artists that all the time.
24. 57:39 – 1:00:53

    Oversaturation Is a Myth, There’s Room for You

    1. JSJay Shetty57:39

       a few more about some emotions that artists often go through. I think one of them today is oversaturation.

    2. AMAmie McNee57:46

       Ooh, yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty57:46

       This feeling of it's oversaturated. Like, I was looking at someone the other day. A friend of mine said to me, they said, "Jay, I feel like you were one of the first podcasts." And I was like, "I think you must be kidding, right?" And they're like, "No, no, no, I think you were, like, one of the first podca- " I was like, "I launched my podcast in 2019," and I pulled up this chart.

    4. AMAmie McNee58:02

       Oh my gosh.

    5. JSJay Shetty58:02

       I Googled it. There were 336,000 podcasts-

    6. AMAmie McNee58:05

       Mm

    7. JSJay Shetty58:06

       ... that existed in 2019, and of course, there are so many before that that were, that were well-known and, and big as well. And it was like, but to them, because I was the first podcast they'd discovered, I must have been the first podcast. And I was like, it's rarely the first thing of anything that takes off-

    8. AMAmie McNee58:22

       Yeah

    9. JSJay Shetty58:22

       ... has lessons, is whatever. Today, I think there's over probably probably-

    10. AMAmie McNee58:25

        I was about to ask, do you know the number?

    11. JSJay Shetty58:27

        I think it... I could be wrong, so but maybe, like, two million maybe today.

    12. AMAmie McNee58:30

        Okay, cool. Yeah.

    13. JSJay Shetty58:30

        And so I'm sure it's high-

    14. AMAmie McNee58:32

        Yeah

    15. JSJay Shetty58:32

        ... because it's been five years since we launched.

    16. AMAmie McNee58:33

        I still, I wanna say, though, like, two million isn't that high.

    17. JSJay Shetty58:36

        Not for the world.

    18. AMAmie McNee58:36

        There's, like, there's seven billion of us.

    19. JSJay Shetty58:38

        Yeah.

    20. AMAmie McNee58:38

        People are like, "I couldn't start a podcast. It's saturated." I'm like, it is... there's two million podcasts. There are so many of us. There are billions of us. Think we can kind of get the scale a bit confused sometimes.

    21. JSJay Shetty58:48

        Totally.

    22. AMAmie McNee58:49

        Um, but yeah, whenever anyone says, "I can't, it's oversaturated," no.

    23. JSJay Shetty58:53

        [laughs]

    24. AMAmie McNee58:54

        [laughs] Um, plus there's no noise like your noise. There's noth- that you, again, you're a one-time phenomenon. You're never gonna be repeated. You have something to say that's never been said. You have a viewpoint that will never be replicated. Um, you almost have your own market.

    25. JSJay Shetty59:09

        Yes. There's so much. I, I see that more and more when I see creators come up, and I'm like, there is so much demand in the world to be seen.

    26. AMAmie McNee59:17

        We're so hungry for art.

    27. JSJay Shetty59:18

        Yeah, for art-

    28. AMAmie McNee59:19

        Yeah

    29. JSJay Shetty59:19

        ... and to be seen, and you can make people feel seen in a way-

    30. AMAmie McNee59:23

        Yes
25. 1:00:53 – 1:02:25

    Your Voice Is One of a Kind Use It

    1. JSJay Shetty1:00:53

       And, and most people I've found listen to a collection of podcasts

    2. AMAmie McNee1:00:55

       Oh, totally

    3. JSJay Shetty1:00:56

       Yeah, people-

    4. AMAmie McNee1:00:57

       And I double

    5. JSJay Shetty1:00:57

       ... and everyone was asking me, they're like, "Oh, how do you feel about so many other podcasts coming up?" And, and that's the funny thing. It's like that's the conversation when you're established, and the conversation when you're new is there's too many.

    6. AMAmie McNee1:01:06

       Yes, but-

    7. JSJay Shetty1:01:06

       And when you're established, everyone's like, "Oh, are you..." And I'm like, "I love it," because most people are listening to, like, two or three different podcasts at the same time. It's how we... Like, we don't all go, "I only watch Netflix." It's like-

    8. AMAmie McNee1:01:16

       Exactly

    9. JSJay Shetty1:01:16

       ... "No, I like shows on Apple, and I like some shows on," whatever else there is here. Sorry, I'm, I'm, I only know the channels-

    10. AMAmie McNee1:01:22

        The American ones [laughs]

    11. JSJay Shetty1:01:22

        ... that are America. Yeah, the HBO and Hulu-

    12. AMAmie McNee1:01:24

        Yeah

    13. JSJay Shetty1:01:24

        ... and whatever else there is. It's like y- you don't just go, "Oh, no, no, I only watch this one platform."

    14. AMAmie McNee1:01:29

        We have a huge appetite.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:01:30

        "I, I only watch YouTube. I don't use Instagram." Like, it doesn't work like that.

    16. AMAmie McNee1:01:33

        No.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:01:34

        And-

    18. AMAmie McNee1:01:34

        And, like, on Instagram, it's like, "Oh, there, there's an oversaturation of poets." I'm like, I... Give me all the poets.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:01:39

        Yeah, exactly.

    20. AMAmie McNee1:01:40

        I'm not just following one poet on Instagram.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:01:42

        Totally, totally.

    22. AMAmie McNee1:01:43

        Yeah. And there's a renaissance for, uh, for so many art forms at the moment because of social media, because we have this, like, connection economy, and there is more space than ever before. And it can feel like there's a lot of noise because of these spaces and because when you scroll through Instagram you can see a lot of creators, but it's because we're hungry for it. And more than ever, we're hungry for very vulnerable, real connection. We're hungry for art-

    23. JSJay Shetty1:02:06

        Yes

    24. AMAmie McNee1:02:06

        ... in a world where we're shown a lot of, you know, listicles or, like, viral content. Like, we're hungry for human expression. And so it's time for artists to step up, take up space, share their art, and make things because we're desperate for it. So yeah, I really won't hear anything to do with the saturated market.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:02:22

        Yeah. Yeah.

    26. AMAmie McNee1:02:23

        I will shut that down. [laughs]

26. 1:02:25 – 1:03:49

    Use Jealousy to Guide, Not Derail You

    1. JSJay Shetty1:02:25

       It's a great answer. I love it. Uh, another emotion I think a lot of artists experience is jealousy.

    2. AMAmie McNee1:02:29

       Yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:02:29

       If we're being really honest, jealousy and envy of, like, "I wish I had that."

    4. AMAmie McNee1:02:32

       Mm.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:02:32

       "I wish I got those views."

    6. AMAmie McNee1:02:33

       Yeah.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:02:34

       "Oh, why are they... Why is it happening to them-

    8. AMAmie McNee1:02:34

       I'm jealous of you, Jay

    9. JSJay Shetty1:02:35

       ... and not me?" Yeah. [laughs]

    10. AMAmie McNee1:02:36

        But I am, but I see jealousy as a compass.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:02:39

        Mm.

    12. AMAmie McNee1:02:39

        I think it can be a beautiful emotion. If we let it fester, it can be toxic.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:02:44

        Mm.

    14. AMAmie McNee1:02:44

        I love the way you use your platforms. I love the art you make. I love the way that you, uh, use this podcast. Like, and then there is a definite, like, almost it feels a bit like jealousy, like, "I want what you have." But I can use that in a way that is incredibly inspiring to me in my art, and I know where it is I wanna go. I can learn from you. I can be taught by you. Um, I can follow in your footsteps. And if we can use jealousy in that way rather than sinking down into patterns of comparison. So instead of me sitting here and being like, "Oh, why am I not in Jay's position?" And, like, listing the reasons why and, like, comparing two incomparable artists, I can say, I can use jealousy as a compass. And I really wish that artists could see it in that way because, again, it's another emotion that can take us down. We can feel constantly less than, never enough. And I also feel like it's an emotion that maybe doesn't go away. I'm not sure if that's been your experience, if you've seen that. Like, doesn't matter how big you get, there's always someone who's got something that maybe you want-

    15. JSJay Shetty1:03:42

        [laughs] Yeah

    16. AMAmie McNee1:03:42

        ... or something like that. And it just, if you don't get a handle on it, I feel like it's not something that... Yeah, it doesn't fade away with success.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:03:48

        Yes.

27. 1:03:49 – 1:07:12

    How to Inspire Others by Owning Your Path

    1. JSJay Shetty1:03:49

       Yeah. There's two questions I ask clients of mine, uh, when I'm coaching them.

    2. AMAmie McNee1:03:53

       Mm.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:03:54

       And the first question is, who do you envy?

    4. AMAmie McNee1:03:56

       Yeah.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:03:56

       And there's no one that I've met, no matter how successful they are, that doesn't know that word on the tip of their lips. Like, that-

    6. AMAmie McNee1:04:03

       Yeah, they've got them there

    7. JSJay Shetty1:04:03

       ... the name, they know it. And I've found that learning to deal with envy and transform it is core to happiness and fulfillment in life because you can't-- forget even how much you do what you love. Even if you did what you love every day and it paid you well, you'd still be unhappy if you had envy in your life. Like, envy is that force-

    8. AMAmie McNee1:04:25

       Mm

    9. JSJay Shetty1:04:25

       ... that, what you're saying, to use it as a compass. And what I often do, and I said this to you the moment you walked in because I love it the way you write. I said to you, "Oh, yeah, I probably need to take a workshop with you," and that's me saying, "I'd rather study with you than envy you."

    10. AMAmie McNee1:04:40

        I love that.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:04:40

        Like, that's the choice I get to make. I'd rather study you and your work and how you've learned that and study with you and grow and have a relationship with a mentor than to envy that person and, and want to never give myself the opportunity to grow and become, but only to unbecome and unlearn and kind of go backwards.

    12. AMAmie McNee1:05:00

        That was stunning. I loved everything you just said so much. I feel like that's so beautiful, the idea that it's an, it's an opportunity to level up. Soon as you feel that, uh, jealousy and envy, I think you've got two options. It's like you could really let this take you down, or you could really let this take you up. So it's very exciting.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:05:17

        Yeah.

    14. AMAmie McNee1:05:18

        Yeah, it's, uh, similar with imposter syndrome. I actually feel like imposter syndrome is a sign that you've leveled up as well.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:05:23

        Yes, yes.

    16. AMAmie McNee1:05:23

        You're in that new skin, and it feels, like, uncomfortable. But yeah, it's a, it's an opportunity to say, "No, I'm gonna learn from you. I'm gonna, yeah, sit at your feet." I love that.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:05:33

        Yeah, absolutely. Uh, We Need Your Art is out right now. I'm excited for everyone to grab a copy of the book. Amie, is there anything that I haven't asked you that's really on your heart or something you wanted to talk about that we somehow h- didn't get to that, that you wanna share now that intuitively is coming to you?

    18. AMAmie McNee1:05:47

        Yeah, I mean, that's... We could talk for a long, long time.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:05:49

        [laughs] For sure.

    20. AMAmie McNee1:05:49

        [laughs] I think I wanna talk about how when I wrote We Need Your Art, and it was, you know, not long ago, I love that I got to speak to the creative experiences from in the trenches, and because it can be such a challenging experience navigating yourself as a creative. Uh, there's so much rejection, silence, you know, imposter syndrome, comparison, like so much of what we've spoken about, and I love that I got to write this book in it. Like, I'm still experiencing rejection. I'm still experiencing-

    21. JSJay Shetty1:06:21

        Yeah, me too

    22. AMAmie McNee1:06:21

        ... silence. Yeah, exactly. And I love that I got to, yeah, delve into this topic with everyone as we all navigate it. Um, and yeah, I'm very excited for people to get to read this book and to, to... for me to be on that journey with them. Like, the greatest privilege in the world for me is to sit by an artist and watch them create. Uh, there's no greater honor to me, so yeah, I'm very excited for this, this book baby to be in people's hands.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:06:45

        That's beautiful. Me too. I really believe it's gonna be that, you know, that generational book that's gonna inspire all these new creatives and artists at a time when I don't feel ever since social media took off we've really had a book that-... speaks to that dilemma of being an artist.

    24. AMAmie McNee1:07:03

        Mm.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:07:03

        And I feel like We Need Your Art is that book, so-

    26. AMAmie McNee1:07:05

        Thank you, Jay

    27. JSJay Shetty1:07:05

        ... I'm really excited for you and excited for everyone to have it, excited to read it myself and have it. Uh, but Amie, we end

28. 1:07:12 – 1:11:09

    Amie on Final Five

    1. JSJay Shetty1:07:12

       every On Purpose episode with a Final Five. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So Amie McNee, these are your Fast Final Five.

    2. AMAmie McNee1:07:20

       I've been preparing.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:07:21

       [laughs] I love it.

    4. AMAmie McNee1:07:22

       [laughs]

    5. JSJay Shetty1:07:22

       I love it. Uh, question number one, what is the best advice you've ever had or received?

    6. AMAmie McNee1:07:28

       I love what Liz Gilbert says when she says, "This world is just a school for endless learning."

    7. JSJay Shetty1:07:34

       Mm.

    8. AMAmie McNee1:07:35

       I love this idea, and I feel like you embody this so much. It's like this is just a school for endless learning. We just get to keep being curious, keep learning, keep making mess, and then finding something magic within it, and I love taking that into each day because it allows for so much room, and it gives me... Even if it's shitty or even if it's good, I love it.

    9. JSJay Shetty1:07:54

       I love it. Uh, question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever had or received?

    10. AMAmie McNee1:07:59

        Honestly, like, in a more general term, it's the, "Be careful."

    11. JSJay Shetty1:08:02

        Mm.

    12. AMAmie McNee1:08:03

        I wanted to recklessly-

    13. JSJay Shetty1:08:04

        [laughs]

    14. AMAmie McNee1:08:05

        ... pour myself into my art. I wanted to be risky, and I, the words I kept getting was, "Be careful." And it made me feel like I was doing something wrong, but I love the invitation for artists to rebel, to be the revolution, to just be messy and recklessly, like, throw themselves into this creative life.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:08:23

        I just got goosebumps. I was like, that's really, like, that's so right, that, that cautiousness, which is for safety-

    16. AMAmie McNee1:08:30

        Mm

    17. JSJay Shetty1:08:30

        ... but always ends up feeling like it trapped you instead of keeping you safe.

    18. AMAmie McNee1:08:34

        Yeah.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:08:34

        Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that. Uh, question number three, what is the worst piece of art you've ever made?

    20. AMAmie McNee1:08:40

        [laughs]

    21. JSJay Shetty1:08:41

        [laughs]

    22. AMAmie McNee1:08:42

        Oh, man. You should talk to my, my partner. So we write books together, and so I'll write the first draft, and then he'll read it, and watching his face-

    23. JSJay Shetty1:08:52

        Yes

    24. AMAmie McNee1:08:52

        ... as he reads my first draft, he's like, "What is this?"

    25. JSJay Shetty1:08:55

        He's here right now. [laughs]

    26. AMAmie McNee1:08:56

        Yeah, and it, and he... It's because I, and I pride myself on this, I write spectacularly shitty first drafts.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:09:02

        Yeah.

    28. AMAmie McNee1:09:02

        And I'm genuinely proud of it 'cause I just word vomit. It's just la, la, la, la, la. There's so much magic in there, but it is difficult to navigate as an editor, and poor James really has to wade through some shit.

    29. JSJay Shetty1:09:13

        [laughs]

    30. AMAmie McNee1:09:13

        But I'm incredibly proud of my first drafts.

Episode duration: 1:11:09