Blocked by Fear of Being Judged? Here's How to STOP Caring & UNBLOCK Your Creativity!

Amie McNee 0:00 Literally the day I started journaling, I haven't stopped, and it ... Everything changed because I allowed creativity back into my life shame-free. I think so many of us are creating, but we've got so much shame around it. We're not good enough. It's not making enough money. My parents, you know, really think I should give it up. There's so many narratives that come with creativity. So many of us are just being held back, kept small. I want you to find out what happens when you take perfectionism out of the equation and you just let yourself create.

Jay Shetty 0:28 The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs] How can someone be saying things that are so sometimes difficult, uncomfortable, hard to say, and hard to hear, but doing it in a way that was so clear and so powerful? And

Jay Shetty 0:49 I wanted to start off by asking you, how do you see people? Are people born creative, or can people become creative? And is everyone in some way creative? Because I think a lot of people listening right now are thinking, "Jay, this episode isn't for me."

Amie McNee 1:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:06 "I'm not creative."

Amie McNee 1:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07 "I'm not an artist. What do I do?"

Amie McNee 1:11 I know. When I say, and I say it a lot, I say, "We need your art," and I worry about the amount of people who are like, "Oh, not my art." But I'm like, "Your art." And I think we have a real ... We can really pedestal the term art as to what it is, and we think it's, oh, it's fine art, or, oh, it has to be photography or a certain type of art. But art comes in so many different shapes and forms, and we all have a capability and a desire to create. It's just that it looks different for all of us. So when I say we need your art, like, I mean we need your art. Like, we all have a drive and a desire to make stuff. It's so innate. It's so human. So I think we really need to take art off the pedestal. It's not just for fine arts, although obviously it is, but it's this. It's podcasting. It's, uh, you know, watercolors. It's writing. It's planting. It's gardening.

Jay Shetty 1:59 It's makeup tutorials.

Amie McNee 2:00 It's makeup tutorials. It's book reviews.

Jay Shetty 2:02 Cooking.

Amie McNee 2:03 It's cooking. Like, creativity, like, sinks into all aspects of our lives, and we all have a thirst for it. And so when I say we need your art, I'm talking about you. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 2:11 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 2:12 Yeah, and I love that you are broadening the definition of art-

Amie McNee 2:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 2:16 ... because I think you're so right. Like, growing up, I'm not ... I wasn't good at drawing.

Amie McNee 2:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:20 And so I always thought I wasn't artistic. Yet it was so funny, I remember when I was finishing primary school, elementary school, and I remember we did this reflection exercise, and it was like, "What's your favorite subject, and what's your worst subject?" And I put my favorite subject being math because I w- thought I was a geek, but I wasn't. And then I wrote down my worst subject was art. And then when I went to secondary school, high school, and when I finished, if you asked me what my favorite subject was, it was art, and if you asked me what my least favorite subject was, it was math. Because I had an art teacher called Mr. Buckeridge at QE Boys School in Barnet that expanded the definition of art from day one, and it became about color. It became about juxtaposition. It b- became about meaning. It became about collage. It became about imagery. It became about my passions. It became about all these other things. And I then, uh, made him feel really upset because I, uh, sold out and didn't study art at university even though I, I'd kind of bas-

Amie McNee 3:25 But in so many ways-

Jay Shetty 3:25 Yeah

Amie McNee 3:26 ... you have studied art.

Jay Shetty 3:27 [laughs] Yeah.

Amie McNee 3:27 You know? Like, you've kept that going in-

Jay Shetty 3:28 No, but it was such a-

Amie McNee 3:29 ... in all aspects of your life.

Jay Shetty 3:30 Yeah, but you've broadened that definition for everyone.

Amie McNee 3:32 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:32 And I think that's so needed because you are right. Podcasting is art. Writing is art. Cooking is art.

Amie McNee 3:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:38 Uh, all of these things.

Amie McNee 3:39 The way we dress, you know, the way we express, like, you can't, you can't not create art. Um, and I think we need to reclaim that word for o- for ourselves. It is mine, and you are an artist in some way, shape,

Amie McNee 3:50 or form.

Jay Shetty 3:50 What happens when we stifle ourselves?

Amie McNee 3:53 Mm.

Jay Shetty 3:53 So what happens when you hold back? Sometimes today people even know they're artistic. Maybe they even had a little skill when they were younger. Maybe they were passionate. Maybe even now in their spare time, but they're blocking themselves. They're stifling themselves because they've heard things like, "Well, that won't get you a career. That won't pay the bills. That's not gonna make you money. That's not a real job." And by the way, I heard all those things growing up, so it feels very familiar to me. What happens to us when we stifle ourselves and block ourselves?

Amie McNee 4:25 Yeah, I mean, if you will indulge me, I'll tell you a bit of my story.

Jay Shetty 4:28 Please.

Amie McNee 4:28 Because I feel like, and exactly as you said, you've experienced this, like, all I wanted to do was tell stories. Like, it's all I wanted to do. Whether it was through acting or writing, I just felt, like, driven to express myself through storytelling. And once I left school, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna take this seriously. Like, I really want to commit to this." And, you know, from the age of 18 to the age of, like, you know, really recently, like, I was inundated with, "It's childlike. It's irresponsible. It's foolish to take the creative arts seriously." And I, I ended up with severe depression. I was so low because I was so embarrassed by this extraordinarily strong desire to, to tell stories. Like, I just wanted to tell stories, and I felt so ashamed about it, and I felt like I couldn't be a real adult. I couldn't grow. And so I withheld my creativity, and I felt incredible amounts of shame, and I felt so embarrassed, and I didn't want to talk about it with anybody, and it resulted in me being ridiculously depressed. I was so low. I had such low affect. I had no motivation, um, because there was, like, a war going on inside me. And half of myself was like, "I have to tell stories. Like, I am here to create, to make art, and to impact the world with my art." And then the other half of me was like, "This is so irresponsible. Why can't you be a real adult? Why can't you just grow up? Like, get a real job." And that duality and that war within me left me, like, broken. And it wasn't until I, I started journaling, and I started seeing the stories that I was telling myself, and I was like, "This ... I cannot live this way." And so I started rewriting them, like, with my pen on the pages of my journal, and I allowed art back into my life, like, shame-free art. And, like, since literally the day I started journaling, I haven't stopped, and it ... Everything changed because I allowed creativity back into my life shame-free.

Jay Shetty 6:15 Wow, I love that. I love the sound of shame-free art

Amie McNee 6:17 It's so important. I think so many of us are creating, but we've got so much shame around it. We're not good enough. It's not making enough money. My parents, you know, really think I should give it up. There's so many narratives that come with creativity, and so many of us are just being held back, kept small. Yeah. We need shame-free art.

Jay Shetty 6:37 How did you get the courage to allow art back in?

Amie McNee 6:40 Mm.

Jay Shetty 6:40 Especially when you're in a dark place, like you're saying you're experiencing depression, you're hearing all this negativity around you about the relevance of your art and the value of your art. How do you, in that place, go, "I'm gonna turn to art," because it's the one thing that's been villainized and made to seem negative?

Amie McNee 6:58 Yeah. It was through journaling. It was a complete narrative shift. So I would write out the stories that I was telling myself. So, "Why can't you get a real job? Why do you think this is possible? This is so embarrassing. You've got hundreds of rejection letters from publishers. No one's listening to you." And then I would write it all out so I could witness the stories I was telling myself. Like, I needed to see the amount of shame I was in because... And it would shock me. Like, I would reread what I was writing, and I was like, "My brain is, like, a place of just, like, violence and vitriol." Like, I'm speaking so terribly to myself and to my inner artist. And then at the end of my journaling session, I would be like, "Okay, well, how do I want to sound?" And I call it mothering myself. It's like a re-parenting exercise.

Jay Shetty 7:39 Mm. Yeah

Amie McNee 7:39 And I would just be like, "You know what?" And I would treat myself like a baby, and I'd be like, "Baby girl, you are here to tell stories. I am so proud of you. I'm proud of the way that you are showing up. I'm proud of the way that you are rebe- rebelling against society's expectation. You have been put on this earth to make art, to create, um, and I'm so proud of what you're doing." And so no matter how much I, like, spewed out crap, and there was so much inner critic rubbish on the pages, I always ended it with this voice that was like, "Okay, but I'm actually really proud of you."

Jay Shetty 8:08 Mm.

Amie McNee 8:08 "You know, you are here to make art, and y- you're on the path." I used to tell that to myself all the time. "You're on the path. You're on the path." And so yeah, it was, it was through words, which is so appropriate, I guess, for me as an author.

Jay Shetty 8:19 Yeah. But it, but it's so interesting that that wasn't a learned technique, or it wasn't-

Amie McNee 8:24 No

Jay Shetty 8:24 ... it was something that came-

Amie McNee 8:25 It just happened. Yeah

Jay Shetty 8:26 ... yeah, something that came from within, but now it's a practice people can follow through.

Amie McNee 8:29 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:29 And I

Jay Shetty 8:30 love that repetition of you are on the path-

Amie McNee 8:32 Mm

Jay Shetty 8:32 ... because I think that's so, so true in that we think that we're either off the path or on the path, and we think that we're either going in the wrong direction or the right direction, rather than just recognizing [laughs] that you're on the path either way. And I've, I've done this often, and I've, I've seen a lot of people do it, where we go, "You know, up until last year, I was j- it was just a mess, and then I figured it out," which basically devalues all of that experience, all of that pain, all of that stress, all of the amazing journey you've had that brought you to that point, that actually inspires and powers this path. But you're like, "Now I'm on the right path." And so we have this way of devaluing past experiences, even when we say, "Oh, I had this light bulb moment, and then everything changed." And it's like, well, no, all of that got you to the light bulb experience.

Amie McNee 9:23 Yeah, I love that, Jay. Something I say to myself is that, yeah, I mean, again, I repeat it all, all the time, like, "You are on the path, you are on the path, you are on the path," but it would've been so easy for me to say, "Oh, I've figured it out. Now I've got the publishing deal. Now, you know, I've, I get to have an audience, and now I've figured it out." But I actually owe everything to the girl that navigated silence, to the girl that navigated rejection, to the girl that had so much shame. Like, when I think about how I got here, I owe everything to her, and I tell that to artists all the time because, you know, so many artists, we are navigating... You know, we're sharing stuff on social media. No one's seeing it. No one's liking it. We're, you know, daring to put our art up for sale. No one's wants to buy it. We are learning new crafts. We're being so vulnerable, and you, your future version of yourself owes everything to you for daring to be brave, for being courageous, for taking up space even when no one else is listening or no one else is watching. Like, I, right here, on The Jay Shetty Show, owe everything to the girl who was sitting at a cafe extraordinarily depressed, but saying, "You know what? I'm gonna dare to write today even though nobody else wants me to write."

Jay Shetty 10:33 I love that. I, I, I so love that because you made me think of, I remember when I started out, and I think the first two presentations I gave, pretty much no one showed up. And then for years, I was doing events for five people, 10 people, and I loved it. And actually, I was so lucky because social media kind of kicked off a bit later than when I would've done that, so I never even had the pressure or the belief that more than five to 10 people could come. Because maybe I'd seen 20 people in a room, or 50 people in a room, or 100 people in a room.

Amie McNee 11:06 Mm.

Jay Shetty 11:06 And so to me, 100 was a big number.

Amie McNee 11:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 11:10 And I was talking to someone just a couple of days ago, and they're a creator, and they were saying, like, "Jay, I just feel this pressure of scale, and I feel this pressure of, like, not enough people have seen my work." And I was just thinking, you know, whether I had five people in the room, 10 people, 100, or, you know, whatever it is now, it... I was always just happy and grateful to be with whoever was in the room.

Amie McNee 11:30 I love that.

Jay Shetty 11:30 And so now I feel that sa- And I know it's easy for me to... It sounds easy for me to say it now, and it's hard for me to reflect back from the external view of whether people believe me or not, but I can honestly say that I remember just wanting to spend the whole evening with the five people who turned up, and answer their questions, and share with them insights, and it was so beautiful and valuable and meaningful that that's what gave me the practice. It what, it's what gave me the ability to understand different people's challenges and stresses, and everything that I've been able to create here-Is only because of that experience. It wasn't that I'm different now, and I'm better now, and I mastered something. It wasn't that. It was, it was all part of the same path.

Amie McNee 12:12 Yeah. We, we owe everything to that version of Jay.

Jay Shetty 12:14 Yeah.

Amie McNee 12:15 You know? And we get to experience you now because you dared, and you enjoyed, and you loved doing that work earlier on. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 12:21 Mm-hmm.

Amie McNee 12:21 I love that.

Jay Shetty 12:22 But then how we get that art out there should potentially have structure and strategy and-

Amie McNee 12:26 Yeah, I'm gonna disagree-

Jay Shetty 12:28 ... and focus

Amie McNee 12:28 ... with you.

Jay Shetty 12:28 I wanna hear your thoughts.

Amie McNee 12:29 This is such a nuanced conversation. I'm so glad you said that because it is so complicated, and it's so very valid to want to just make art for art's sake. It's so hard. I speak to so many creatives who, whose closest people aren't backing them. I think when we commit to art, we often trigger a lot of people, and we trigger the artist within them that they squashed down and that they repressed. And so when we say, "Oh, I'm actually being incredibly brave, and I've decided to write a book," we trigger a little part in them that says, "Well, I never let myself write a book. I thought you needed permission to write a book, and here you are just taking up space writing a book."

Jay Shetty 13:02 I feel like

Jay Shetty 13:03 so many people are probably listening to this right now going, "Amie, Jay, I have an idea."

Amie McNee 13:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 13:08 Like, "I have something in my head that really makes sense, but I'm scared to put it out there." And I'm sure you hear this all the time, but I see the fear of judgment and the fear of your art being shamed and the fear of people thinking it's silly, not good enough, as being such a blocker for people. And I wanted to ask you, how do you help people overcome that fear? Because it seems to be the biggest wall in the way of people and their dreams.

Amie McNee 13:40 I mean, there's so many different ways we can look at this. First of all, I'm so excited that you have an idea. Like, this is so exciting. Let's cherish it. We need to take care of it-

Jay Shetty 13:46 Mm.

Amie McNee 13:47 Because-

Jay Shetty 13:47 I like that

Amie McNee 13:47 ... like, I'm really being serious. Like, we need your art. We need your expression. We need you to take up space. There are people out there in the world who need what you have to create, and if you choose to withhold it, they will never get to experience it. Like, you are a one-time phenomenon that will never, ever be seen again, and if you choose not to take action on this idea, then that's done. That idea is done eternally, will never be seen again. I just wanna, like, really enforce that because it can be so easy to be so flippant. "Oh, it's just an idea. It was never gonna go anywhere." These ideas are so precious, and we need to take care of them. The judgment thing, misunderstanding the, "Oh my God, what's that dude from high school gonna think of me?"

Jay Shetty 14:25 [laughs]

Amie McNee 14:25 Like, is so valid because art is so vulnerable. Um, creativity is like g- pouring a little bit of you into an external thing and giving it to the world. Like, that's super vulnerable, and so I wanna validate that feeling of, "Oh my God, what will people think of me?" Art is a courageous exercise. It is so vulnerable. It is so scary, and it's okay that we have these feelings. I think there are several things that we can do. I think the first one is come home to a truth, is that you will be misunderstood, and you will be judged, and it's still worth making the art. I can't let some random guy from high school stop me from doing my work, and I almost did. When I decided I wanted to really start taking up space as a writer, I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna start, like, an Instagram. I'm gonna s- start sharing my words," and I s- was like, "No, I can't. It's so cringey." And I was like, "That guy from high school, like Ben from high school," or, like ... I kept thinking of these random people. They're gonna see me, and they're gonna be like, "Who does she think she is?" And it stopped me in my tracks for ages. And I just love that version of myself because she was so brave, and she decided, "No, I want this life. I wanna tell stories." And so I started Inspired to Write, started my Instagram, and I blocked every single person I could find.

Jay Shetty 15:37 [laughs]

Amie McNee 15:37 And I, like, sat there for hours being like, "They would stop me showing up. They would stop me showing up." And I created a cocoon for myself to become the artist that I needed to be. And so I think, first of all, we do need to understand that we will be misunderstood and that it is safe to be misunderstood. But second of all, that we can take precautions to make sure that we are, uh, that we have spaces to create in that feel as safe as possible. But creation itself will never be safe. It's inherently risky, and that's why it's inherently rewarding.

Jay Shetty 16:06 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 16:07 I love that. I love that you actually had a physical way-

Amie McNee 16:10 I was like-

Jay Shetty 16:10 ... of having a block-

Amie McNee 16:11 No.

Jay Shetty 16:11 ... and creating those boundaries.

Amie McNee 16:12 No, no. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 16:13 Yeah. And, and I think we don't think about it that way sometimes.

Amie McNee 16:15 Mm.

Jay Shetty 16:15 We think that, oh, we, we should have got over that feeling first. Like, I should be over the fact that my parents think this is a bad idea before I create. And it's like, well, no, you're probably gonna have to create while they think it's a bad idea.

Amie McNee 16:27 Oh my God. We can't become, like, fully actualized before we create art, and art's gonna reveal all of your lightness but also a lot of your darkness. So there's gonna be so many things that come up as you dare to do the brave thing and create stuff. Like, you're gonna see a lot of narratives. You're gonna see a lot of insecurities because, again, making art's so vulnerable. You're just gonna see a lot of the hard things within you, and you can't wait till they're healed to begin creating. So yeah, do what you need to do. And for me, I needed to block every single person I could think of, and now everyone's unblocked.

Jay Shetty 16:57 [laughs]

Amie McNee 16:57 But I needed that space away from eyes. I didn't want their perception of who they thought I was to interrupt my journey of who I was becoming.

Jay Shetty 17:06 Yes.

Amie McNee 17:06 And so I claimed space for myself, and I invite artists to, however it looks, put boundaries in place so that you can do this work, and you can feel as safe as possible. I know you can't protect yourself entirely, but you can do a little bit so that you f- you know, feel a little more comfy or more cozy as you do the brave thing and start, you know, making-

Jay Shetty 17:24 [laughs]

Amie McNee 17:24 ... some ideas.

Jay Shetty 17:25 Yeah. I feel some of us have this feeling of, "I wish the people who loved me believed in me."

Amie McNee 17:32 Oh, yeah.

Jay Shetty 17:33 Right? And I feel as artists, because you can have a softer heart, you're more empathetic, you're more in tune with some of these emotions and feelings, there's a sense of, "Why don't you believe in me? And if you believed in me, I could do it. And if you believed in me, then I might get there. And if you believed in me, then I'd feel better about it." How do you let go of those kind of expectations that we often have of the people around us?There's a heartful part of that, but really it's a hurtful part because it stops you from starting

Amie McNee 18:03 Yeah. It's so hard. I speak to so many creatives who, whose closest people aren't backing them. I think when we commit to art, we often trigger a lot of people, and we trigger the artist within them that they squashed down and that they repressed. And so when we say, "Oh, I'm actually being incredibly brave and I've decided to write a book," we trigger a little part in them that says, "Well, I never let myself write a book. I thought you needed permission to write a book, and here you are just taking up space writing a book." And I don't know that they necessarily know that that's what's happening, but I feel like when we commit to art, a lot of people find that confronting. And so that's important for us to realize is it's not us, uh, it's often their inner child that just hasn't had a chance to express ourselves. Because we don't live in a world that really encourages art, that encourages creative expression. It's something to do when you're young, and it's something to do when you're retired. And when we dare to do it now, you know, in like the mid of life, like I think it's... People are like, "Oh, well, who gave you permission to do that?" And it's like, "Well, I did."

Jay Shetty 19:03 [laughs]

Amie McNee 19:04 And a huge part of my journey has been permission giving. Like I thought I needed to wait for permission for the gatekeepers from publishers. I thought I needed someone to say, "You are now allowed to make art." And one of the biggest revelations, and again, it came through journaling, was, well, no, I'm just gonna give myself permission. And I didn't need it from my parents, I didn't need it from my friends, I just needed to literally be like, "I give myself permission to take this seriously." And it was the most profound permission slip I could have ever given myself, ever.

Jay Shetty 19:29 I

Jay Shetty 19:30 remember that as well for myself when I started to create videos eight years ago, and it was that same sense of feeling that before I did that, I was asking people to give me a job to do what I wanted to do, and I knew there wouldn't be an exact job for it, but I was even willing to sacrifice my art to take on a job that might evolve into the artistic version of that. And so I remember pitching myself as a tradie- trainee video producer at lots of companies in London, and being turned down because I didn't do communications at college, or I didn't do video production at college, at university. And then same thing with trying to meet editors of magazines and say, "Oh, maybe I can get in this way." And again, getting rejections. And then it was actually Raj who messaged me, I think it was like, gosh, like 2015 Christmastime, and he was like, "Yeah, you've been giving a lot of talks. We should get out there and just, you know, maybe we should record some stuff." And I was like, "I don't know. I haven't really made a video before." And I was like, "I haven't really got any scripts." And he was like, "Let's figure it out." And so I, I scribbled some stuff down that I'd been thinking about, and then we just went out there and we shot these four videos, and then we released them later on on YouTube. And it was the best feeling in the world. Like, I've never... I wish I could bottle up that feeling and give it to other people and... Well, well, you can with, with the work you're doing. Your book is that, uh, We Need Your Art, that's what the book is gonna do for people. It's gonna give people that feeling of freedom.

Amie McNee 20:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:57 And it was the first time I felt free, because I would constantly been waiting for someone to give me a job, give me a title, give me a position, give me an opportunity and a break. And you're so right. Like, as an artist, you're constantly waiting for someone to say, "Yes, your art is valid-

Amie McNee 21:12 Yeah

Jay Shetty 21:13 ... it's valuable." And it's almost like how do you get to a point where... I want to ask you this because we almost oscillate between two ideologies, which is like you should just be happy making art, and you shouldn't want anyone to see it. And then on the other end it's like, well, you have to make sure people see it, otherwise what's the point of making it?

Amie McNee 21:32 Mm.

Jay Shetty 21:33 And so people get scared, and this is partly why I love your work, because I think it really gets into the nuance of that.

Amie McNee 21:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 21:39 There's this feeling of like, well, it's weird to promote yourself, so I shouldn't promote myself, but then no one sees my art, and then I'm a starving artist.

Amie McNee 21:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 21:47 But maybe that's my badge of honor, and that's what makes me credible and valuable. And then there's the other side of I'm just gonna sell out and make what everyone else wants me to make. I'm gonna go with the clickbait trends, and I'm gonna do whatever it takes, but then I don't really like myself at the end of the day because that's not what I set out to do. How do you make sense of that when you're starting in the beginning and you're like, "Gosh, I don't know which way to go. I don't know how to figure it out"? How do you help people think about that spectrum?

Amie McNee 22:13 This is such a nuanced conversation. I'm so glad you said that because it is so complicated, and it's so very valid to want to just make art for art's sake, to just want to play and create. In fact, I think that's an imperative part of every artist's journey. Like, have fun. Like, that's so important for us. But there are so many narratives around, you know, how to do art properly, and how you're meant to be an artist, and you should make a certain amount of money, and you should be showing up in this way. There are so many stories that I think mean that we start feeling... It, it can be incredibly stressful. Being an artist on social media is so stressful. How do I put myself out there? How am I meant to promote myself? Do I... Should I want to promote myself, or should this be a private practice? I think this is an in- intensely personal thing that you need to sit with and decide where you're at. But for me, my calling is to be seen, and I love supporting artists who want to be seen. And I think there's a, a weird amount of shame that comes from a creative who wants attention for their art. And so my new thing at the moment is to say, "I create art for the attention," because I create art to connect with people, and I think a lot of artists do. Like, we create because we want to show you, and it's a really beautiful thing to do, to make art and say, "Here, do you see yourself in this? Like, I made this. What do you... How do you find it?" And so I want to really validate creators who are creating stuff because they want to connect. I think we get this other story that is, again, a very valid story that says you should only want to make art for yourselfLike Rick Rubin talks about this a lot, and I love what he's saying because if we do get too focused on the external and we start thinking, "Okay. Well, I'm gonna make art only for other people," it can really muddy the waters. We get very confused, and we lose our internal, like, compass of what it is we wanna create. But I think there's this balance to be struck because, yes, we have to love the process. We have to love the, the act of art, of creating, but at the same time, it's okay to want to connect with other people. It's okay to wanna have a relationship with audience. It's okay to wanna be seen. It is so human to want to be seen, and I want artists to feel very validated that that is a beautiful and normal, almost holy part of this. I love artists that are out there asking people, "Hey, can you witness me? I made this thing. Will you see me?" Like, it just sets me alight. I'm like, "Yeah, I do wanna look at you. I want to see. I wanna give you my attention."

Jay Shetty 24:30 Yeah,

Jay Shetty 24:31 and you're so right that so many artists, and, and I know I carried this at the beginning, there's a sense of shame-

Amie McNee 24:37 Mm

Jay Shetty 24:37 ... and guilt in, well, am I less than if I want my art-

Amie McNee 24:41 To want attention, yeah

Jay Shetty 24:41 ... to be seen? Am I, am I doing something wrong if I want my art to connect with people? Am I... And, and I agree with you that that can be such an excuse for us to not create and for us to not make, or we create, but then we play small, and we hide, and we kind of keep our work very, very separate because we want to... Or, or we say things like that, where we say, "Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, I don't really care about followers. I d- I don't really care about how many likes it gets," and inside, it's eating us-

Amie McNee 25:11 Yeah

Jay Shetty 25:12 ... as opposed to accepting and saying, "Well, maybe I do care, and I know I don't care. There's, there's two sides of me." And, and I think I've always... I, I feel that balance that you speak of is so true because there's a part of me that cares about everyone listening to this podcast right now because I want to, because I wanna have a connection. I wanna create something of value for you that benefits your life and changes your life, and you'll listen to this, and it will be the reason three years from now you'll say, "I listened to that episode with Amie, and I started creating, and all of a sudden I'm writing a book, and my art's in a gallery," or whatever it may be for you.

Amie McNee 25:43 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 25:43 I want that feeling. I do.

Amie McNee 25:45 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 25:45 And at the same time, I don't care because I just wanna have a conversation with Amie. And so both of those things are true, but when we start denying parts of ourselves, it's almost like we start lying internally to ourselves, and when you do that, you then really disconnect.

Amie McNee 26:00 There is such a duality to being a human being, and especially in being a creative, and I love that. Like, I, I care about my art impacting people, but I also wanna make sure that I'm making art that I want to make and that I'm not making art just for an audience, and these two things can be true at once. And we can honor both the fact that, yeah, I make art for the attention, and I also make art because I just love to tell stories. And these things are true at one time, and we gotta honor both those parts of ourselves.

Jay Shetty 26:27 You've done

Jay Shetty 26:28 a lot of different jobs-

Amie McNee 26:29 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 26:29 ... on the way here. I believe it was like you've, you were a waitress at one point.

Amie McNee 26:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 26:34 You were-

Amie McNee 26:34 Very bad waitress

Jay Shetty 26:35 ... a trainer. You've done financial planning. I wanna hear-

Amie McNee 26:38 I wouldn't say I did financial planning.

Jay Shetty 26:40 [laughs]

Amie McNee 26:40 I was a personal assistant-

Jay Shetty 26:42 Okay

Amie McNee 26:42 ... for a financial planner.

Jay Shetty 26:43 Right.

Amie McNee 26:44 So I was financial adjacent. Terri-

Jay Shetty 26:46 [laughs]

Amie McNee 26:46 Terrible at that job too.

Jay Shetty 26:48 But I wanna hear about that journey because I think that's what I find fascinating about artists.

Amie McNee 26:52 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 26:52 Like, as an artist, you're always having to pay the bills, finding a way to solve this until your art becomes-

Amie McNee 26:57 Yeah

Jay Shetty 26:57 ... you know, enough, quote... Anyone who's... I'm doing, uh, air quotes next to "enough" to, to be recognized, et cetera. Walk me through that part of your life where you're, like, doing things that keep you afloat and at the same time trying to keep your art alive. What was that like? Because I think a lot of people listening right now, they may be working a 12-hour job a day. They're working three jobs a day just to survive, but they're like, they've got this skill in art, and really when they get home at the end of the day, they just wanna switch on-

Amie McNee 27:24 Of course

Jay Shetty 27:24 ... a TV show and, and escape and switch out. Like, how did you keep both alive when it wasn't your main thing?

Amie McNee 27:31 Yeah. I mean, one of the things that makes me angriest is how much life robs us of our t- o- o- our art time. Like, I want so many of us to have the time, the energy particularly, to come home and to create. But for so many of us, it's just, it's not possible, and balancing a regular work and a creative life is hard. And I, I really wanna validate any creative who's navigating this because I think we get a bit of the hustle narrative, where it's like, "Just make it work." It is hard to balance your creativity and your real-life job and, you know, caretaking and being a kid and just being an adult in general. Like, I can... I... It's huge, and I really struggled with it. Um, I was waitressing bec- I was doing all these little jobs 'cause I was trying to fit art around them. So I was waitressing because I, I could... then I could work after 3:00 PM maybe. I was a personal trainer because I would train clients in the morning and the evening, and I'd try and write in the middle of the day. Like, I was trying to choose jobs that would work for me. But it was exhausting, and especially because these jobs were so, like, the antithesis of Amie. Like, I'm not made to serve people coffee. I can't hold the skim milk situation in my head. Like, I, I don't care, so I don't pay attention, so I'm not a very good waitress. I'm exhausted by the end of my shift. Then I get home to my writing, and I think, "Okay. Well, I've gotta write 2- to 3,000 words. This is too much." And so I would let myself down. I would feel like I betrayed myself, and I would get in patterns of, of constantly feeling like I've betrayed my inner artist. I've betrayed my dreams. I can never reach up to this level. And I think I see it all the time. Like, artists are like, "Okay. Because I didn't write at all this week, okay, I'm gonna... Weekend, I'm gonna do..." I'm very biased to writers, but any sort of creating. "I'm gonna create for, like, six hours to make up for it." And then they can't do it because they're exhausted, and they're in this pattern of self-betrayal. And they start not trusting themselves that they're gonna follow through. But I had a real breakthrough when I decided that I was only gonna write 300 to 500 words a day, just baby steps.

Jay Shetty 29:28 [laughs]

Amie McNee 29:28 Small steps.

Jay Shetty 29:29 Yeah.

Amie McNee 29:30 I-Realized that that was a promise I could keep. 300 words could be done in like 20 minutes, 15 minutes. They could be crap was another big thing. Think we demand huge amounts of time for our art when we're already exhausted, and we're like, "And they better be perfect."

Jay Shetty 29:45 [laughs]

Amie McNee 29:45 And it's so unfair, so unfair, and it, and also it's a recipe for absolute disaster, and you're not gonna be able to finish your creative projects because these working conditions are horrendous. So it was 300 shitty words was my bare minimum. I also had a bare maximum so that I couldn't keep going, so I could contain my energy, so I wasn't allowed to write more than 1,000 words, and that's how I wrote my books. That's how I still write my books, 300 to 500 words a day, and it's so doable, and when you come home from an absolutely hectic day, you can say, "Okay, 300 words," 300 potentially crappy words, or 10 minutes on the guitar, or I want to take three pictures with my iPhone. You know, whatever it is, it's just really small, really doable, and then you start accumulating wins. So if you've done that like three, four times a week, you're like, "Okay, maybe I could do that again next week." And by the, you know, end of the year, you have a portfolio of your creations, and you're becoming a, you know, you've improved as an artist. You've got something to show for yourself. Some of you will have a finished book if you've chosen to write. We ignore the magic of the baby steps so frequently because I think we're just such a go all in or go home culture.

Jay Shetty 30:55 Yeah, and

Jay Shetty 30:56 that, you're so right. That, you know, go all in or go home culture just, it blocks us the most because it's also this comes from like a bit of ego where it's like, "I wanna be the best at this." Like, "This has to be incredible." And it's almost like, well, maybe I'm not gonna be the best at this the first time I try or for the first year or maybe for the first 10 years, and that's okay because I'm just trying. I'm just learning. But that requires a sense of detachment and egolessness to be like, "It's okay to make bad stuff." And I know you-

Amie McNee 31:26 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:26 ... are the biggest proponent of this.

Amie McNee 31:28 Shitty art.

Jay Shetty 31:29 Yeah, and that's really been validating for me.

Amie McNee 31:31 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 31:31 Like, every time I read you say something like that or write something like that, like, yes, thank you, Amie, for-

Amie McNee 31:35 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:36 ... giving me permission. Walk, walk me through how we... Because I think we oscillate between procrastination and perfectionism, and so this kind of solves both of them really.

Amie McNee 31:45 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 31:45 But walk me through that.

Amie McNee 31:47 Yeah, they're so closely related, procrastination and perfectionism. One causes the other in such a, like perfectionism will mean that you procrastinate. So my ethos is, like, shitty art. Like, if you can't point to a giant pile of shitty art that you've made recently, then you're not doing the work. And I think so many artists see that as a sign of failure, but to me, that is a sign of, like, giant success. We have to connect to that messy, playful part of ourselves when we create. That's when the best art is made. I watch artists finesse and finesse, and they're trying to get it so right, and they're, like, narrowing and narrowing their point of view, and they're getting so constrained, and they're losing, I think, their own creative voice almost by these huge restrictions to be perfect. Whereas if you just say, "Make shitty art," and I often do this at workshops. I say, "I got three minutes. Just make something shitty." And the cool stuff that comes out of that, shitty poems, shitty drawings, there's also that little element of magic to it because when you just let yourself play like a child, it's so fun. There's a lightness to it. Ideas come in. Like, perfectionism is rigidity, and we think perfectionism is the answer. It's like, oh, if I'm, if I'm a perfectionist, it's like that will get me to where I wanna go as a creative. It's like the one fault we're allowed to have, but perfectionism will destroy your creative career. It will destroy it. We need mess. We need play. That is when you will become the best artist you can.

Jay Shetty 33:11 Yeah, and, and, and that's actually often where I find the seeds of great ideas come from.

Amie McNee 33:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 33:16 Like, you, you did something bad, and you did something random, but there was one word or one line of it-

Amie McNee 33:20 Exactly, yeah

Jay Shetty 33:20 ... or there was one dot or whatever it is for you, there's that one thing that you go, "Oh, well, that was the real thing. That's the thing I wanna create now." And all of a sudden it sparks it. But if you didn't allow for that messiness-

Amie McNee 33:31 It was never gonna happen

Jay Shetty 33:32 ... you would never have seen it. You would never have found it, and that to me is, is definitely why I crave more play and more messiness in my life because there's a sense of the, the profound will only come from playfulness. It's not gonna come from trying to be profound or create something profound.

Amie McNee 33:49 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 33:50 It doesn't, it doesn't originate that way.

Amie McNee 33:51 I think so many of us think that art is like a child thing, and so we're trying to be like adults creating, and adults would create in very structured ways. Like, we'd have rules. You know, we'd follow an expert, and we do exactly what they say, and we try and make art a very responsible and neat thing.

Jay Shetty 34:07 [laughs]

Amie McNee 34:07 But art is like that inner child playing, and art is messy, and it should be a kind of a chaotic experience.

Jay Shetty 34:13 Yeah.

Amie McNee 34:13 We've gotta invite that back into our, into our lives.

Jay Shetty 34:16 Yes. I do this

Jay Shetty 34:17 activity that I got introduced to many years ago. It's, it's known as the 30 Circles Test.

Amie McNee 34:22 Mm.

Jay Shetty 34:22 Don't know if you've ever seen it.

Amie McNee 34:23 No.

Jay Shetty 34:23 So it's basically a A4 piece of paper with 30 circles printed on it, and I often hand it to executives at corporate coaching and corporate clients that I have, and the task is you have to uniquely fill and complete and use 30 circles in 30 seconds. And the clock starts, and everyone starts scribbling away doing their thing, and then clock stops at 30 seconds, and I ask them what have they done. F- Over 50% of the audience will have done one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight to 30.

Amie McNee 34:52 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 34:52 Or A, B, C, D, E, F, G to Z, uh, Z to A, B, C again, and so they will have done that. That's what f- over 50% of the audience-

Amie McNee 35:00 Wow

Jay Shetty 35:01 ... has done. Some of the audience has done squiggles, just random-

Amie McNee 35:03 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 35:03 ... squiggles, nothing there, maybe noughts and crosses, or they've, some people have done emojis, and some people have done, like, footballs and-

Amie McNee 35:10 All right

Jay Shetty 35:10 ... soccer balls and pizzas or whatever, like, using circles.

Amie McNee 35:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 35:14 And that's generally runs the gamut of 99% of the audience.

Amie McNee 35:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 35:18 And maybe in the adult side you get one, but they also did this with lots of 10-year-olds, and I tried it o- out with 10-year-olds as well, and some of the stuff that comes out is unbelievable.

Amie McNee 35:29 So cool.

Jay Shetty 35:30 And so this one girl had done all this, like, intricate shading on it, and when we asked her what it was, she said it was a chess board from a bird's-eye view. And when you ask another kid what it was, they, um-Had put like a line around it and put a little thing on top, and they said it was a bag of marbles, and they put $5 on, on the bag of marbles. And this was my favorite one. Someone had done all this intricate shading, this little girl, and put all this like, uh, curves and all this stuff. And when I asked her what it was, she said it was bubble wrap.

Amie McNee 35:58 Oh my God.

Jay Shetty 35:58 And, and it was so creative.

Amie McNee 36:01 Yes.

Jay Shetty 36:01 And-

Amie McNee 36:01 It's a genius.

Jay Shetty 36:02 Yes, genius. And, and it's so interesting. What you're saying is so true that when adults hear 30 circles, 30 seconds, we go logical brain-

Amie McNee 36:10 Structure, yeah

Jay Shetty 36:11 ... structure, completion, deadline. So we switch off the part of our brain that has any-

Amie McNee 36:17 Yeah. And can you ... can imagine how many of those adults are thinking, "There is a right and wrong way to do this."

Jay Shetty 36:22 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

Amie McNee 36:22 "And I'm gonna be marked on it." Whereas these kids are just ... Like, it's so beautiful, so playful. And when we talk about creative genius, I think we often think of some of, you know, the greats like Mozart or something, but like look to the kids 'cause they are finding out fun stuff.

Jay Shetty 36:36 Yes.

Amie McNee 36:37 They are the creative geniuses. And we have that within us, it's just that we've been told to squash that part of us from our culture really.

Jay Shetty 36:44 How do you start to structure and strategize art and promote it in a way that then it does allow you to ... Because it's almost like we're trying to become adult about our art-

Amie McNee 36:55 Mm

Jay Shetty 36:55 ... not adult about how we market, promote, and strategize our art.

Amie McNee 36:58 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:58 If that makes sense.

Amie McNee 36:59 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 37:00 Like, it's almost like the art should remain playful and messy and truly creative, but then how we get that art out there should potentially have structure and strategy and-

Amie McNee 37:10 Yeah

Jay Shetty 37:10 ... and focus.

Amie McNee 37:10 I'm gonna disagree with you.

Jay Shetty 37:11 I wanna hear your thoughts.

Amie McNee 37:13 I think there's a lot of room for mess, for playfulness, for the chaos, the traditional creative chaos in marketing, putting your art out there. Think we get really stuck on, okay, well, I've, I've made my art. It's incredible. It's beautiful. It has my inner child like infused within it. Now I'm gonna market it, and now I need branding colors, and I need a social media scheme.

Jay Shetty 37:33 Oh, I agree with that.

Amie McNee 37:33 And I need to be, I need to be doing, you know, four to five consistent posts a week and three reels, and all of a sudden that like ... I see it. Like, artists just shrivel. Like, we don't thrive under those kind of circumstances. I think there's so much room for ... I think marketing is an art form in itself.

Jay Shetty 37:51 Agreed.

Amie McNee 37:51 And therefore, I think that when we put our art out there, when we promote our art, there is room for mess, and there's still ... Like, shitty art should still be a part of it. Like, we should still be playing around, seeing what works, having fun when we promote our art as well. I, I think artists feel so claustrophobic when they feel like they have to niche down, or they feel like they have to, you know, m- neaten up their Instagram grid. Like, be messy in the promotion process. Like, we're out there looking for real humans to connect with, not, not brands, not companies. I want to connect with artists who are real human people. And so I want to invite artists to bring that mess into the marketing process as well.

Jay Shetty 38:31 I love that.

Amie McNee 38:31 But I think it's very easy, like, for our perfectionist to flare up when it comes to sharing our art because not only have we just done the bravest thing, which is make art, now we have to share it.

Jay Shetty 38:40 [laughs]

Amie McNee 38:40 And so perfectionism is gonna flare hugely because we're like, "Okay, I've gotta protect myself 'cause this is a moment where I, like, put it out there, and people are gonna see me as the artist. They're gonna see my art. They're gonna judge it." So we start trying to structure it really heavily in order to feel safe, and I just think we lose so much of the magic when we do that. I wanna see the artist. I wanna see the human. I wanna see a mess. I want to see you playing. I wanna see ... I just wanna see grit-

Jay Shetty 39:05 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 39:07 I love that

Amie McNee 39:07 ... when it comes to promoting it.

Jay Shetty 39:07 No, I actually agree with you.

Amie McNee 39:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 39:09 I actually agree with you. I definitely ... When I was doing my structure and strategy, maybe I used the wrong words. I definitely don't mean ... definitely don't like the idea of people having to, you know, like you said, um, choose brand colors and be organized-

Amie McNee 39:22 Yeah, very neat

Jay Shetty 39:22 ... and like ... Yeah, no, not in that way at all. And, and, and I couldn't agree with you more that often that's the stuff that stifles even more creativity because you're now playing a game that-

Amie McNee 39:32 Definitely, yeah

Jay Shetty 39:32 ... that you hope to figure out.

Amie McNee 39:34 Yeah. I see artists ... You see it everywhere online, especially in the space I'm in 'cause I'm so in, you know, the creative space. Artists are just so tired of, of having to show up in specific ways online in order to please the algorithm. Like, there's a weariness that I see in creatives that's so heartbreaking, and I just wanna say, like, I ... First of all, I know it's hard to navigate these systems, but second of all, break all the rules. Rebel. Like, artists are inherent, like, rebels.

Jay Shetty 40:01 Rebels, yeah.

Amie McNee 40:01 We break the rules. We've already broken loads of rules because we've created stuff in a world that wants us to stay small and compliant and silent. Now it's time to break the rules with how we put our art out there. Do whatever you wanna do. Do what makes you happy. Do what feels creative rather than, you know, constantly obeying what's gonna go ... you know, what, what we think might go viral or what reels are preferred by the algorithm. This stuff is making us feel like shit, and it's not ... I don't know that it's helping us.

Jay Shetty 40:29 And, and how do you feel like if someone's doing that, but then they're also, like, going months and years without feeling like their work's being seen-

Amie McNee 40:35 Yeah, it's so hard

Jay Shetty 40:35 ... and then they're battling the other side? Yeah.

Amie McNee 40:37 Yeah, it is incredibly difficult. And there's nothing ... To me, there's nothing more painful than when you're sharing your art and nobody is seeing it. Like, there is an exquisite pain when it comes to that silence and navigating like putting something out there that you've just created and having no one respond. Like, for me, when I was navigating that, like, it ... I was very, very upset by it, and I felt almost ashamed by how upset I was by it. Again, it's that idea that artists shouldn't want attention, but I wanted attention. I wanted people to see and read my books. I wanted to be witnessed. So when artists aren't seen, and when we're like, "Okay, I'm gonna break all the rules," but it feels like by breaking the rules, you get missed, or you get put to the side, that can be incredibly difficult. I think there's a way to kinda tow the line and play the game, but at the same time, make sure that it feels good to you. Certainly for the way that I like to share my art, I don't want to do what's going viral. But I will still consider like, you know, how it's gonna impact my audience and what people have enjoyed of my content lately. Like, there's a game that I'm playing, and it's a balance that I like to ... There's a line I like to walk that makes it so it's still creatively fulfilling for me, but I'm not going to obey whatever the next niche thing I have to do in order to be big on social media.

Jay Shetty 41:53 Yeah. Yeah, no.

Amie McNee 41:53 Do you find

Amie McNee 41:54 that, like, in terms of your creation?

Jay Shetty 41:55 I mean, totally. I mean, we-In the beginning, you know, for me, the videos that I started with were me just freestyling almost-

Amie McNee 42:04 Yeah

Jay Shetty 42:04 ... uh, kind of rough words, poetry on topics that I loved.

Amie McNee 42:08 Mm.

Jay Shetty 42:09 They went viral by chance.

Amie McNee 42:10 Yes.

Jay Shetty 42:10 Like, they weren't crafted for a particular time length or a particular editing-

Amie McNee 42:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 42:16 ... pattern because I didn't know them. I j- I was just making videos, and, and they went viral, and people loved them. And then I made more of those because I enjoyed them, but the day I stopped enjoying making them, we stopped.

Amie McNee 42:27 Yeah, beautiful.

Jay Shetty 42:28 And then we created a new format where I'd seen a lot of comedians who would do sketches, and they'd be hilarious sketches of real life. I was like, "Well, what if I did sketches of real life? Like, what if I was to create real-life experiences as dramatic performances with messaging?" So we did those, and I loved it, and those went viral. And then there was a day I didn't enjoy making those anymore. I felt like I was trying too hard to-

Amie McNee 42:53 Yeah

Jay Shetty 42:54 ... to come up with storylines. And then so we stopped doing that. And then I started the podcast, which I'm still doing today because it feels like the most realist, fluid form because there is no set structure to make a interview go viral. It's truly a-

Amie McNee 43:08 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 43:09 ... a deep conversation. It's far less... There's not a science to that as much.

Amie McNee 43:13 Yeah, I love that.

Jay Shetty 43:14 And, and if there is, I don't enjoy it because I choose not to ask... I have a rule that we have of not to ask gossip-based bet questions, clickbait questions or-

Amie McNee 43:22 Yeah

Jay Shetty 43:23 ... because that's how we protect our art-

Amie McNee 43:25 Yeah

Jay Shetty 43:25 ... in that I want the conversations to be true and genuine and sincere. But basically, when I've stopped finding something fulfilling as art, I've stopped doing it because I've found that if I keep doing something I hate, I'm gonna end up hating parts of myself-

Amie McNee 43:38 Oh my God. Yeah

Jay Shetty 43:39 ... and I'm gonna feel disconnected from myself.

Amie McNee 43:41 We get a lot of bitter artists when we have, you know, a practice that we're doing, whether that's in the creation process or whether it's when we share it. If we c- if we don't like it and we keep doing it, we are going to become bitter. And we see a lot of bitter artists out there who are just so angry at, at what the world has made them do, you know, whether that's to sell their books or-

Jay Shetty 43:59 Yes

Amie McNee 43:59 ... sell their art or s- be seen on social media, and they're so pissed that they had to sacrifice their creative integrity in order to be seen, and it just cannot be worth it. I just, I want creatives to create with what feels good, exactly like you, Jay. It's such a beautiful example. When it stops feeling good, stop doing it. Try something else.

Jay Shetty 44:18 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 44:19 'Cause it w- it did feel good at one point.

Amie McNee 44:20 Oh, of course.

Jay Shetty 44:20 And it served.

Amie McNee 44:21 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 44:21 And it was new and fresh, and it was creative. And the funny thing is there's parts of me that wanna go back to some of those now.

Amie McNee 44:26 Yeah, return.

Jay Shetty 44:26 So it's like, because I'm like, "Oh, I used to love those videos eight years ago. Maybe if I reconnected to them-

Amie McNee 44:30 Mm

Jay Shetty 44:30 ... I'd come at them from a really genuine place." And so I can now go back home feeling happy rather than go back home feeling bitter because I feel forced to be there.

Amie McNee 44:40 Yes.

Jay Shetty 44:40 And so I feel like when you let the algorithm dictate what you make, you feel forced to be there, and it's almost like your parents forcing you to come to family dinner, and you don't wanna be there.

Amie McNee 44:50 Exactly.

Jay Shetty 44:51 And I love what you said about artists being rebels because I remember when I wrote Think Like a Monk, my first book, and 14 out of 17 imprints that I took meetings with at different publishers told me not to call it Think Like a Monk because they were like, "Jay, who wants to think like a monk? No one wants to do that." And it was this big thing that I remember this conversation, and I w- we were talking earlier about when you're writing your first book, you don't know how much to push for and how much not to.

Amie McNee 45:15 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 45:15 That was something I pushed for wholeheartedly, and I'm so glad I did.

Amie McNee 45:19 I'm so glad you did.

Jay Shetty 45:21 And, you know, it's so interesting because same with my second book, I was like, I had this view of an artistic cover, and I pushed for it again because I believed in it so deeply. And I could have gone for the cover that they thought would sell the most or whatever, and it was never that. It was always like, I wanna create something that I think is beautiful and powerful-

Amie McNee 45:39 I love that

Jay Shetty 45:39 ... and builds a movement.

Amie McNee 45:41 Yeah. I think we've been taught to, we've gotta create the thing that's gonna go the most viral. But what if we create something that impacts, you know, 100 people? Like, that's still incredibly worth it. I think we're always aiming for virality. We're always aiming for, like, again, what's that? Big or g- go big or go home. Like, what if we make art and share it in a way that, no, it doesn't go viral, but it connects, and it m- and it impacts, and it maybe it only finds one or two people, but it does its thing, and it, and it resonates with them. I feel like artists are always told, you know, "Go viral. Be Taylor Swift or be a starving artist," and it's this binary that doesn't serve us. I talk a lot about, like, I want the, I want this to be the era of the middle-class artist-

Jay Shetty 46:21 [laughs]

Amie McNee 46:22 ... where it's like, we don't need millions and millions of dollars. We need an, a, you know, a stable income, and we get to enjoy a stable income. Um, and we're not the starving artist, and we're not J.Lo, but we are thriving, joyful, you know, financially secure artists. Like, that's what I want for us, and I think it's much more possible than we realize.

Jay Shetty 46:40 You just talked about how you want this culture of middle-class artists, which I love that. Like, that's such a, such a great vision-

Amie McNee 46:47 Yeah

Jay Shetty 46:47 ... and such a great mission that you're on.

Amie McNee 46:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:48 Like, I really like that because, like you said, I think for so many years we've been told art's not a real job. It won't make you a living. What's the point? And we've subscribed to that, and then you do a safe job, and then you realize you left your dream back there.

Amie McNee 47:01 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 47:01 Or you got lucky enough, and art did become a really big thing, but then maybe you lost touch with the art you wanted to create, and you felt like you sold out. And I've always described it as the selfish artist or the sellout artist, and it's like the selfish artist only creates them for themselves, but then they don't ever get to feel what it feels like to share their art. And the sellout artist only creates for the audience, and then they never create what they truly want, and the balance is in between.

Amie McNee 47:26 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 47:27 But when it comes to monetizing your art, I feel like people are scared of asking for money. We're scared of valuing our art accurately, and then at the same time, we're struggling to pay our bills at points in our life. How do you encourage people to think about monetizing their art and becoming a middle-class artist?

Amie McNee 47:45 There's so much shame around, for all of us, whatever we're doing, there's so much shame around money. But I think for artists, there are so many narratives. There's this almost glamour around being the poor artist, and then as you say, then there's the glamour around being, like, the super mega famous artist, and there's no healthy story, um, about an artist who gets paid for what they do and can live, you know, a sustainable life. And, you know, there's a value exchange, and it feels good, and the exchange of money feels good. And I feel like for me personally on my journey, like-It's been the most beautiful thing to realize that selling my art has felt really good. And selling my books has felt so aligned. I know that my stories are going to serve them, and there's a value exchange, and they pay me for my stories, or they pay me for my words. And it's felt really beautiful, like a very, um, like a relationship. It's felt very intimate. It's felt very aligned. And I always thought that it was gonna feel icky, or it was gonna feel yucky, or that I was gonna feel like I was taking advantage of them or manipulating them. But I've found a space where it feels good, and I want artists to understand that selling your art can feel good. And so I want artists to start getting comfortable with the idea that art is valuable. And perhaps that's maybe the s- part of the problem, like we don't understand that art is valuable. People think, "Oh, you know, food is valuable because it feeds me," or, "You know, I need a computer because I need to do work on it," but we don't really understand the value of art. And it is incredibly hard to put a monetary value on art. I mean, I have so many conversations with creatives being like, "How do I put a m- like a dollar sign on my art?" And that is hard. It can feel very arbitrary. But art has value. Art brings so much value to other people, and the artist needs to learn that. Because I think there's too many creatives going around out there thinking, "Oh, I'm just ... I'm making decoration for the world," or, "I'm just doing something so silly. Uh, I'm telling stories. I'm making movies, but it's just ... You know, it's, it doesn't make a difference." Art makes a difference, and we're getting some very cool research coming in about how art impacts us physically, how it impacts our mental health, how it impacts our communities. Like, art changes us, but artists don't recognize that, and we still think we're doing something frivolous when in reality we are doing something incredibly profound that is making real change, political change, personal change, biological change to other people around us. You deserve money for that. That story needs to sink in, and then that value exchange is gonna feel

Amie McNee 50:10 so much better.

Jay Shetty 50:11 So powerful. I'm so glad you made it so easy and clear, and it's so true. I have so many friends who are artists who do something, and it's quite easy for them-

Amie McNee 50:19 Mm

Jay Shetty 50:19 ... or it's effortless for them.

Amie McNee 50:20 Yes.

Jay Shetty 50:20 And then they're scared, and there's this beautiful old made-up story that I heard a long time ago where it's not true at all, but, but it's, it's got a nice message. And Picasso walks into the marketplace, and this lady sees Picasso, and she says, "Picasso, will you draw me a portrait?" And he says, "Sure, I'll draw you a portrait." So he grabs a pen and paper, and he draws a portrait of her, and he gives it back to her, and she says, "Picasso, that took 30 seconds," like, and he's like, "It took me 30 years to do that in 30 seconds."

Amie McNee 50:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 50:48 And it's like when you're working as an artist, you're almost recognizing and reminding yourself that when you're putting a value on your work, you're putting a value on all the training, all the pain-

Amie McNee 50:57 Yes

Jay Shetty 50:57 ... all the stress, all of that that went into that piece that's maybe have taken you 20 hours, maybe it took you two hours, maybe it took you two minutes. But there's so much experience that went into that piece. And so whether it was a quote on Instagram or whether it was a piece of art-

Amie McNee 51:13 Mm

Jay Shetty 51:13 ... we're always valuing how long it took us to do the thing, not how long-

Amie McNee 51:17 The work

Jay Shetty 51:17 ... it took us to live what it took to do that thing.

Amie McNee 51:20 I also think we think that because art can be joyful or easy to make, that it shouldn't be worth money.

Jay Shetty 51:25 Yes.

Amie McNee 51:26 Because I had a really good time writing my book, I should give away it for free. Um-

Jay Shetty 51:29 Yes

Amie McNee 51:30 ... which is ridiculous.

Jay Shetty 51:31 Mm-hmm.

Amie McNee 51:31 I think we, we almost feel like we've got it too good. Could I love the process and be paid for it? Yes, you could, because your art has a lot of value, and you deserve to be paid for it. Again, I, I want artists to understand that what you are making has value. You deserve money for it.

Jay Shetty 51:49 Yeah. Yeah. No, and I, and I think about it all the time, like there's also this feeling of if you're doing something truly to help people, it should be absolutely free.

Amie McNee 51:58 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 51:58 And, and that's a really interesting one. Go on. You have a reaction. [laughs] I can see your reaction to that, so like ...

Amie McNee 52:04 I think it happens for artists a lot too, and I ... We ... I get a lot of creatives telling me that, oh, their family member's asking for free art, or, you know, "If you really wanted the world to change, you would give it away for free." Lots of narratives, again, constantly asking artists to work for free, uh, devaluing creatives, devaluing artists, and it's so painful because it's, it's kind of a seductive narrative. I actually really want to hear what you have to think about it. But this idea that it's only generous if there's not a value exchange is just so cruel, and it leaves artists ... First of all, it perpetuates the scarcity story and that artists are poor, that we have no money, which means we end up not creating that much, which means we don't have the money, which means we're working multiple jobs, which means we can't create the art. Like, if we don't support and nourish artists with money, we lose artists. So we need to be paying our artists. If you want more art, if you want an art-- a world that is filled with books and movies and creations and musics and beautiful gardens and good food, we need to support our artists. And I still think that when we put our art up for sale, and when we sell it, it is a profoundly generous act, especially when we ask for money for it in return.

Jay Shetty 53:12 Yeah. You asked my opinion on it. It's similar to yours. I remember at one point in my life, I was... I had 100 million views, and I was four months away from being broke.

Amie McNee 53:21 Mm.

Jay Shetty 53:21 And I was starting to think, "Okay, I'm gonna have to go back to work. I'm gonna have to get a job again." And I know that the job I would probably get would be demanding because that's the job I'd get with my education and everything I have, and therefore I'd probably not be able to do much of this anymore. And that means if I can't make this anymore, but the 100 million views I have, the comments and everything, I'm reading a, "Jay, this really helped me. This changed my life. I shared it." I ... Like, all the comments I'm reading are like people have benefited by this, but I'm not gonna be able to do that anymore because I don't know how. And I remember going through that whole process, and I was thinking, "Well, wait a minute." And, and at that time I was shaming and guilting myself for even thinking that I could charge for something. And I was like, "Well, but how do I do that?" And like, but people are getting value from it. But then I really want to do it for free because that's how I was trained to always... And obviously with my monk background-

Amie McNee 54:12 Yeah

Jay Shetty 54:12 ... it's like everything was for free, and everything was charity work. And so I really had that conditioning. And then I thought to myself, "Well, if I give up what I love-... that helps people and serves people, and I can't do it any longer, is that the world I wanna live in? And it was a really clear answer where it was like, well, no, I wanna live in a world where I can do this forever. I can help more people do what they wanna do.

Amie McNee 54:35 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 54:35 We can even create teams that will all be living a purposeful life, that they wanna, excuse me, that they wanna live in.

Amie McNee 54:41 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 54:41 And we'll be able to hopefully impact so many more people who will create amazing journeys for themselves. And I'm so glad that despite any criticism, shame, guilt that comes with that path, I'm glad I made that choice because I'm far happier having pursued that than I would've been if I just went, "Okay, well-

Amie McNee 54:59 I'm done

Jay Shetty 54:59 ... I'm done now because I can't afford to do this anymore."

Amie McNee 55:01 What a huge loss for the whole world if you would've been like, "I'm done."

Jay Shetty 55:04 And for myself.

Amie McNee 55:04 And for you, yeah.

Jay Shetty 55:05 And, and, and the creative of, like, just also just not just thinking about, well, I can't make more if I don't have enough to make with.

Amie McNee 55:15 Yes.

Jay Shetty 55:15 Like, who am I gonna pay to edit the video?

Amie McNee 55:16 Exactly.

Jay Shetty 55:16 How am I gonna film this? And how, how... all of this. And there was s- even, even with the podcast, which, which is free, and I always thank everyone for us allowing to have our sponsors and our ad partners, which is the way we're able to do this, and we're so s- I always said this to everyone, um, well, not everyone. I, I say this to my friends behind closed doors. I'm like, "We're so selective over which brands we work with, which companies we partner with in order to present that to our community," and we probably leave more on the table than we even make-

Amie McNee 55:42 Mm

Jay Shetty 55:42 ... because of that desire to get it right. And I'm not saying that to sound holier than thou or sound... What I'm saying is everything's done intentionally, and I think if it, if it's done intentionally, there's a heart there, and there's a, a truth there of wanting to serve and wanting things to be good.

Amie McNee 55:58 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 55:59 And the podcast is absolutely free, but there are certain things that may not be if that person wants to hold that integrity-

Amie McNee 56:06 Yeah

Jay Shetty 56:06 ... for themselves.

Amie McNee 56:07 I love that.

Jay Shetty 56:08 If that makes any sense.

Amie McNee 56:08 No, it makes a huge amount of sense.

Jay Shetty 56:10 Yeah.

Amie McNee 56:10 I think artists are just constantly... People always wanna call them out for selling out, and I don't know why we're so vulnerable to that narrative, because you don't go up to your accountant, who's doing, you know, important work, and say, "Why are you being paid for this?" We don't go up to, we don't ask other people, "Why do you want money for your job?" But we ask artists that all the time.

Jay Shetty 56:30 Wow.

Amie McNee 56:30 We ask creatives that all the time, and it's interesting, and, and I don't fully understand the narrative there, but I question it, and I wanna, like, double down. Like, we deserve to be paid, and we deserve not to be questioned about that as well. Like, of course we, we bring value. We deserve money.

Jay Shetty 56:47 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's because... And that's a great point. It's like wanting to understand it. I think it's because emotional and spiritual exchanges are not valued in society as deeply.

Amie McNee 56:58 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 56:59 Right? Like, you can't... We all know there's people you meet that energetically make you feel better.

Amie McNee 57:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 57:04 But because you're not known to pay for that as an energetic exchange, you almost think it's impure if you had to pay for it. So we see money as impure-

Amie McNee 57:12 Mm

Jay Shetty 57:12 ... and we see art as pure.

Amie McNee 57:14 Yeah, and we don't like them touching.

Jay Shetty 57:15 Correct.

Amie McNee 57:16 Whereas I want to very gently suggest that art is, like, messy, human, like, not pure at all. It's d- it is holy and incredible and the most important force ever, but it's messy, and it's human, and it's ugh. Same with money. It's like, you know, n- none of these things are impure or pure. We're, they're all very human ideas, and I believe art and money belongs together.

Jay Shetty 57:37 No, I love that. I wanna ask you

Jay Shetty 57:39 a few more about some emotions that artists often go through. I think one of them today is oversaturation.

Amie McNee 57:46 Ooh, yeah.

Jay Shetty 57:46 This feeling of it's oversaturated. Like, I was looking at someone the other day. A friend of mine said to me, they said, "Jay, I feel like you were one of the first podcasts." And I was like, "I think you must be kidding, right?" And they're like, "No, no, no, I think you were, like, one of the first podca- " I was like, "I launched my podcast in 2019," and I pulled up this chart.

Amie McNee 58:02 Oh my gosh.

Jay Shetty 58:02 I Googled it. There were 336,000 podcasts-

Amie McNee 58:05 Mm

Jay Shetty 58:06 ... that existed in 2019, and of course, there are so many before that that were, that were well-known and, and big as well. And it was like, but to them, because I was the first podcast they'd discovered, I must have been the first podcast. And I was like, it's rarely the first thing of anything that takes off-

Amie McNee 58:22 Yeah

Jay Shetty 58:22 ... has lessons, is whatever. Today, I think there's over probably probably-

Amie McNee 58:25 I was about to ask, do you know the number?

Jay Shetty 58:27 I think it... I could be wrong, so but maybe, like, two million maybe today.

Amie McNee 58:30 Okay, cool. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 58:30 And so I'm sure it's high-

Amie McNee 58:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 58:32 ... because it's been five years since we launched.

Amie McNee 58:33 I still, I wanna say, though, like, two million isn't that high.

Jay Shetty 58:36 Not for the world.

Amie McNee 58:36 There's, like, there's seven billion of us.

Jay Shetty 58:38 Yeah.

Amie McNee 58:38 People are like, "I couldn't start a podcast. It's saturated." I'm like, it is... there's two million podcasts. There are so many of us. There are billions of us. Think we can kind of get the scale a bit confused sometimes.

Jay Shetty 58:48 Totally.

Amie McNee 58:49 Um, but yeah, whenever anyone says, "I can't, it's oversaturated," no.

Jay Shetty 58:53 [laughs]

Amie McNee 58:54 [laughs] Um, plus there's no noise like your noise. There's noth- that you, again, you're a one-time phenomenon. You're never gonna be repeated. You have something to say that's never been said. You have a viewpoint that will never be replicated. Um, you almost have your own market.

Jay Shetty 59:09 Yes. There's so much. I, I see that more and more when I see creators come up, and I'm like, there is so much demand in the world to be seen.

Amie McNee 59:17 We're so hungry for art.

Jay Shetty 59:18 Yeah, for art-

Amie McNee 59:19 Yeah

Jay Shetty 59:19 ... and to be seen, and you can make people feel seen in a way-

Amie McNee 59:23 Yes

Jay Shetty 59:23 ... that no one else can, and that's your superpower, and that's what's so beautiful about you, and that's what's needed because you're gonna make someone feel seen, heard, and understood in a way no one else can, in a way I can't, in a way you can't, in a way this-

Amie McNee 59:36 I love that.

Jay Shetty 59:37 Yeah.

Amie McNee 59:37 I really, I often use this example when people talk about oversaturation and art because I think art sits in a really different space to other products. So for example, like, a toaster, like, I only want one toaster, or I could maybe want two, but basically I want one toaster. But I want hundreds of books. I want... I can watch so many films. I can have so much art around me. Like, I want so many different types of plants for my garden. I want, you know, to try different types of food. Like, we have a really, really big appetite for art.

Jay Shetty 1:00:07 That's a good point.

Amie McNee 1:00:07 And so when people come in and say, "I couldn't possibly be a writer, there are so many writers in the world," I'm like, "I can't have enough books."

Jay Shetty 1:00:15 [laughs]

Amie McNee 1:00:15 Like, I'm mainlining them on audiobooks-

Jay Shetty 1:00:17 Yes

Amie McNee 1:00:17 ... like, just all the time. Like, art is not toaster. We, it's not a fridge.

Jay Shetty 1:00:22 [laughs]

Amie McNee 1:00:22 We don't need just one of them. Um, we have a much bigger market than you realize, and I, I always feel whenever a creative, I very gently say this, when a creative comes to me and says, "I can't, it's oversaturated," I go, "There's gotta be another reason."

Jay Shetty 1:00:34 Yes.

Amie McNee 1:00:35 You're playing small. Like, 'cause it's a g- it sounds great. It sounds like a perfect excuse, but-We need your voice. There is no ni- no, no noise like your noise. Start taking up space

Jay Shetty 1:00:46 Yes, yes. Yeah

Amie McNee 1:00:47 Again, like 2 million podcasts, 7 billion of us. I don't want more podcasts.

Jay Shetty 1:00:51 Yeah

Amie McNee 1:00:51 I listen to new podcasts all the time

Jay Shetty 1:00:52 Totally.

Jay Shetty 1:00:53 And, and most people I've found listen to a collection of podcasts

Amie McNee 1:00:55 Oh, totally

Jay Shetty 1:00:56 Yeah, people-

Amie McNee 1:00:57 And I double

Jay Shetty 1:00:57 ... and everyone was asking me, they're like, "Oh, how do you feel about so many other podcasts coming up?" And, and that's the funny thing. It's like that's the conversation when you're established, and the conversation when you're new is there's too many.

Amie McNee 1:01:06 Yes, but-

Jay Shetty 1:01:06 And when you're established, everyone's like, "Oh, are you..." And I'm like, "I love it," because most people are listening to, like, two or three different podcasts at the same time. It's how we... Like, we don't all go, "I only watch Netflix." It's like-

Amie McNee 1:01:16 Exactly

Jay Shetty 1:01:16 ... "No, I like shows on Apple, and I like some shows on," whatever else there is here. Sorry, I'm, I'm, I only know the channels-

Amie McNee 1:01:22 The American ones [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:01:22 ... that are America. Yeah, the HBO and Hulu-

Amie McNee 1:01:24 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:01:24 ... and whatever else there is. It's like y- you don't just go, "Oh, no, no, I only watch this one platform."

Amie McNee 1:01:29 We have a huge appetite.

Jay Shetty 1:01:30 "I, I only watch YouTube. I don't use Instagram." Like, it doesn't work like that.

Amie McNee 1:01:33 No.

Jay Shetty 1:01:34 And-

Amie McNee 1:01:34 And, like, on Instagram, it's like, "Oh, there, there's an oversaturation of poets." I'm like, I... Give me all the poets.

Jay Shetty 1:01:39 Yeah, exactly.

Amie McNee 1:01:40 I'm not just following one poet on Instagram.

Jay Shetty 1:01:42 Totally, totally.

Amie McNee 1:01:43 Yeah. And there's a renaissance for, uh, for so many art forms at the moment because of social media, because we have this, like, connection economy, and there is more space than ever before. And it can feel like there's a lot of noise because of these spaces and because when you scroll through Instagram you can see a lot of creators, but it's because we're hungry for it. And more than ever, we're hungry for very vulnerable, real connection. We're hungry for art-

Jay Shetty 1:02:06 Yes

Amie McNee 1:02:06 ... in a world where we're shown a lot of, you know, listicles or, like, viral content. Like, we're hungry for human expression. And so it's time for artists to step up, take up space, share their art, and make things because we're desperate for it. So yeah, I really won't hear anything to do with the saturated market.

Jay Shetty 1:02:22 Yeah. Yeah.

Amie McNee 1:02:23 I will shut that down. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:02:25 It's a great answer. I love it. Uh, another emotion I think a lot of artists experience is jealousy.

Amie McNee 1:02:29 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:02:29 If we're being really honest, jealousy and envy of, like, "I wish I had that."

Amie McNee 1:02:32 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:02:32 "I wish I got those views."

Amie McNee 1:02:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:02:34 "Oh, why are they... Why is it happening to them-

Amie McNee 1:02:34 I'm jealous of you, Jay

Jay Shetty 1:02:35 ... and not me?" Yeah. [laughs]

Amie McNee 1:02:36 But I am, but I see jealousy as a compass.

Jay Shetty 1:02:39 Mm.

Amie McNee 1:02:39 I think it can be a beautiful emotion. If we let it fester, it can be toxic.

Jay Shetty 1:02:44 Mm.

Amie McNee 1:02:44 I love the way you use your platforms. I love the art you make. I love the way that you, uh, use this podcast. Like, and then there is a definite, like, almost it feels a bit like jealousy, like, "I want what you have." But I can use that in a way that is incredibly inspiring to me in my art, and I know where it is I wanna go. I can learn from you. I can be taught by you. Um, I can follow in your footsteps. And if we can use jealousy in that way rather than sinking down into patterns of comparison. So instead of me sitting here and being like, "Oh, why am I not in Jay's position?" And, like, listing the reasons why and, like, comparing two incomparable artists, I can say, I can use jealousy as a compass. And I really wish that artists could see it in that way because, again, it's another emotion that can take us down. We can feel constantly less than, never enough. And I also feel like it's an emotion that maybe doesn't go away. I'm not sure if that's been your experience, if you've seen that. Like, doesn't matter how big you get, there's always someone who's got something that maybe you want-

Jay Shetty 1:03:42 [laughs] Yeah

Amie McNee 1:03:42 ... or something like that. And it just, if you don't get a handle on it, I feel like it's not something that... Yeah, it doesn't fade away with success.

Jay Shetty 1:03:48 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:03:49 Yeah. There's two questions I ask clients of mine, uh, when I'm coaching them.

Amie McNee 1:03:53 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:03:54 And the first question is, who do you envy?

Amie McNee 1:03:56 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:03:56 And there's no one that I've met, no matter how successful they are, that doesn't know that word on the tip of their lips. Like, that-

Amie McNee 1:04:03 Yeah, they've got them there

Jay Shetty 1:04:03 ... the name, they know it. And I've found that learning to deal with envy and transform it is core to happiness and fulfillment in life because you can't-- forget even how much you do what you love. Even if you did what you love every day and it paid you well, you'd still be unhappy if you had envy in your life. Like, envy is that force-

Amie McNee 1:04:25 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:04:25 ... that, what you're saying, to use it as a compass. And what I often do, and I said this to you the moment you walked in because I love it the way you write. I said to you, "Oh, yeah, I probably need to take a workshop with you," and that's me saying, "I'd rather study with you than envy you."

Amie McNee 1:04:40 I love that.

Jay Shetty 1:04:40 Like, that's the choice I get to make. I'd rather study you and your work and how you've learned that and study with you and grow and have a relationship with a mentor than to envy that person and, and want to never give myself the opportunity to grow and become, but only to unbecome and unlearn and kind of go backwards.

Amie McNee 1:05:00 That was stunning. I loved everything you just said so much. I feel like that's so beautiful, the idea that it's an, it's an opportunity to level up. Soon as you feel that, uh, jealousy and envy, I think you've got two options. It's like you could really let this take you down, or you could really let this take you up. So it's very exciting.

Jay Shetty 1:05:17 Yeah.

Amie McNee 1:05:18 Yeah, it's, uh, similar with imposter syndrome. I actually feel like imposter syndrome is a sign that you've leveled up as well.

Jay Shetty 1:05:23 Yes, yes.

Amie McNee 1:05:23 You're in that new skin, and it feels, like, uncomfortable. But yeah, it's a, it's an opportunity to say, "No, I'm gonna learn from you. I'm gonna, yeah, sit at your feet." I love that.

Jay Shetty 1:05:33 Yeah, absolutely. Uh, We Need Your Art is out right now. I'm excited for everyone to grab a copy of the book. Amie, is there anything that I haven't asked you that's really on your heart or something you wanted to talk about that we somehow h- didn't get to that, that you wanna share now that intuitively is coming to you?

Amie McNee 1:05:47 Yeah, I mean, that's... We could talk for a long, long time.

Jay Shetty 1:05:49 [laughs] For sure.

Amie McNee 1:05:49 [laughs] I think I wanna talk about how when I wrote We Need Your Art, and it was, you know, not long ago, I love that I got to speak to the creative experiences from in the trenches, and because it can be such a challenging experience navigating yourself as a creative. Uh, there's so much rejection, silence, you know, imposter syndrome, comparison, like so much of what we've spoken about, and I love that I got to write this book in it. Like, I'm still experiencing rejection. I'm still experiencing-

Jay Shetty 1:06:21 Yeah, me too

Amie McNee 1:06:21 ... silence. Yeah, exactly. And I love that I got to, yeah, delve into this topic with everyone as we all navigate it. Um, and yeah, I'm very excited for people to get to read this book and to, to... for me to be on that journey with them. Like, the greatest privilege in the world for me is to sit by an artist and watch them create. Uh, there's no greater honor to me, so yeah, I'm very excited for this, this book baby to be in people's hands.

Jay Shetty 1:06:45 That's beautiful. Me too. I really believe it's gonna be that, you know, that generational book that's gonna inspire all these new creatives and artists at a time when I don't feel ever since social media took off we've really had a book that-... speaks to that dilemma of being an artist.

Amie McNee 1:07:03 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:07:03 And I feel like We Need Your Art is that book, so-

Amie McNee 1:07:05 Thank you, Jay

Jay Shetty 1:07:05 ... I'm really excited for you and excited for everyone to have it, excited to read it myself and have it. Uh, but Amie, we end

Jay Shetty 1:07:12 every On Purpose episode with a Final Five. These have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum. So Amie McNee, these are your Fast Final Five.

Amie McNee 1:07:20 I've been preparing.

Jay Shetty 1:07:21 [laughs] I love it.

Amie McNee 1:07:22 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:07:22 I love it. Uh, question number one, what is the best advice you've ever had or received?

Amie McNee 1:07:28 I love what Liz Gilbert says when she says, "This world is just a school for endless learning."

Jay Shetty 1:07:34 Mm.

Amie McNee 1:07:35 I love this idea, and I feel like you embody this so much. It's like this is just a school for endless learning. We just get to keep being curious, keep learning, keep making mess, and then finding something magic within it, and I love taking that into each day because it allows for so much room, and it gives me... Even if it's shitty or even if it's good, I love it.

Jay Shetty 1:07:54 I love it. Uh, question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever had or received?

Amie McNee 1:07:59 Honestly, like, in a more general term, it's the, "Be careful."

Jay Shetty 1:08:02 Mm.

Amie McNee 1:08:03 I wanted to recklessly-

Jay Shetty 1:08:04 [laughs]

Amie McNee 1:08:05 ... pour myself into my art. I wanted to be risky, and I, the words I kept getting was, "Be careful." And it made me feel like I was doing something wrong, but I love the invitation for artists to rebel, to be the revolution, to just be messy and recklessly, like, throw themselves into this creative life.

Jay Shetty 1:08:23 I just got goosebumps. I was like, that's really, like, that's so right, that, that cautiousness, which is for safety-

Amie McNee 1:08:30 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:08:30 ... but always ends up feeling like it trapped you instead of keeping you safe.

Amie McNee 1:08:34 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:08:34 Yeah. That's beautiful. I love that. Uh, question number three, what is the worst piece of art you've ever made?

Amie McNee 1:08:40 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:08:41 [laughs]

Amie McNee 1:08:42 Oh, man. You should talk to my, my partner. So we write books together, and so I'll write the first draft, and then he'll read it, and watching his face-

Jay Shetty 1:08:52 Yes

Amie McNee 1:08:52 ... as he reads my first draft, he's like, "What is this?"

Jay Shetty 1:08:55 He's here right now. [laughs]

Amie McNee 1:08:56 Yeah, and it, and he... It's because I, and I pride myself on this, I write spectacularly shitty first drafts.

Jay Shetty 1:09:02 Yeah.

Amie McNee 1:09:02 And I'm genuinely proud of it 'cause I just word vomit. It's just la, la, la, la, la. There's so much magic in there, but it is difficult to navigate as an editor, and poor James really has to wade through some shit.

Jay Shetty 1:09:13 [laughs]

Amie McNee 1:09:13 But I'm incredibly proud of my first drafts.

Jay Shetty 1:09:15 I love it. That's great. And what is the, your favorite pie- piece of art that you've ever created?

Amie McNee 1:09:21 I wrote a fiction book called Regrettably, I'm About to Cause Trouble.

Jay Shetty 1:09:24 [laughs]

Amie McNee 1:09:25 And it's just that, it's that "don't be careful" kind of vibe. It's a witchy, historical fiction, like, rebel book, and I love... It was this reckless abandon novel of just throw yourself in. So she, she has a special place in my heart.

Jay Shetty 1:09:40 I love that. Uh, fifth and final question, which we ask to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create a law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Amie McNee 1:09:49 I want people to make some shitty art. I want you to f- find out what happens when you take perfectionism out of the equation and you just let yourself create. So yeah, make shitty art. It's all I want.

Jay Shetty 1:10:03 I love it. Amie McNee, everyone. The book is called We Need Your Art. If you don't follow Amie already on Instagram, inspiredtowrite. Uh, Amie, it's been such a joy. I look forward to getting to know you so much more. I'm so excited for you to continue to create art in this world, and we definitely need your art, so-

Amie McNee 1:10:19 Thank you. I'm yours, Jay

Jay Shetty 1:10:20 ... I'm so happy to have connected with your work and found it organically, fell in love with it, and it honestly does work wonders for me when I'm struggling and figuring things out, and I just go to your page and find-

Amie McNee 1:10:30 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:10:30 ... something that resonates very, very deeply. So any- anything I do that helps anyone, you get the credit for it, too, because-

Amie McNee 1:10:35 [laughs] Yes

Jay Shetty 1:10:36 ... because, yeah, it definitely... I wouldn't be able to do it without people like yourself.

Amie McNee 1:10:40 Jay-

Jay Shetty 1:10:41 So thank you so much

Amie McNee 1:10:41 ... thank you for your art. We need your art, and I'm so grateful for you.

Jay Shetty 1:10:44 Thank you. Thanks, Amie. If you loved this episode, you'll enjoy my conversation with Megan Trainor on breaking generational trauma and how to be confident from the inside out.

Guest 1:10:55 My therapist told me, "Stand in the mirror naked for five minutes." It was already tough for me to love my body, but after the C-section scar with all the stretch marks, now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked. But day three when I did it, I was like, "You know what? Her thighs are cute"