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Elliot Page Gets Candid About His Transition Journey ”I was struggling to live life”

Today, we'll dive deep into the incredible journey of Elliot Page, whose story is not just a memoir but a testament to the power of self-discovery and authenticity.

Elliot PageguestJay Shettyhost

Oct 23, 20231h 2mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

55 min read · 10,631 words

0:00 – 0:59
Intro
1. EPElliot Page
  To be honest, so much of it is just about not feeling like [beep] on set-
2. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm. Mm. Wow
3. EPElliot Page
  ... and in my trailer when I'm alone, wanting to tear my skin off. So the future, I think I couldn't see it 'cause I didn't know how much longer I'd last-
4. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
5. EPElliot Page
  ... feeling that way in my day-to-day life. Everyone's sort of go-to was, "Your dream's coming true. Your dream's coming true. Your dream's coming true." Cate Winslet said to me, "Don't let them change you."
6. JSJay Shetty
  Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.
7. EPElliot Page
  The bestselling author and host.
8. JSJay Shetty
  The number one health and wellness podcast.
9. EPElliot Page
  On Purpose with Jay Shetty.
0:59 – 7:41
Elliot On Writing His Memoir ‘Pageboy’
1. JSJay Shetty
  Elliot, welcome to On Purpose.
2. EPElliot Page
  Thank you so much.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Thank you so much for making the time for, for being here. I know you're in LA only for a few days, and I'm grateful that I get to steal some of that time.
4. EPElliot Page
  Oh. Thank you for having me here. Yeah.
5. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. Well, today we're talking about your incredible new memoir. For anyone who hasn't already read this book, I highly recommend that you go and grab it. We're gonna put a link in the caption so that you can order it right now. Pageboy, uh, please make sure that you go and grab a copy if you're enjoying this conversation. Elliot, when I, you know, was reading through the book, I was truly just... First of all, I just felt very, um, grateful that someone's letting us in on such an intimate part of their life and doing it in such a graceful and thoughtful way. And even the structure of the book too, I was just like, "Oh, this is like easing me in in a way that I wouldn't expect to from a memoir usually." And you chose this nonlinear approach consciously and intentionally. Could you explain why you felt that that was the right way to share your story?
6. EPElliot Page
  Yeah. I mean, for me, the non-linearity of it is a reflection on some level of, uh, speaking for myself, the trans and queer experience and how that journey weaves how we get close to our truth, potentially pull back, maybe know ourselves very, very deeply before we've been inundated [laughs] with, you know, uh, society and its expectations that are often toxic and, and limiting. And, uh, you know, so for me, in regards to exploration of memory and of those moments in my life where I, I did feel close and then would pull back, potentially because I was frightened, um, overwhelmed, or what have you. So, um, I guess also personally I enjoy when books are nonlinear, you know? Um, wherein different themes and topics and history and emotion and what-have-you can, uh, all sort of collide. So that's just inherently, I guess, exciting to me. And also, yeah, I think it reflects the sort of queer trans journey on some level.
7. JSJay Shetty
  Mm. Mm. I love the phrase you just used there, exploration of memory. I don't know, my mind just latched onto it and I thought, "Wow, that's a really interesting way of putting it." I think our memory so often is a beautiful thing. It so often fails us. It's so often skewed. What was it like for you going down memory lane? And when you said exploration of memory, what did you discover or explore about memory when you're putting together a memoir? I feel like, I feel like there must be something in there.
8. EPElliot Page
  For me, so many of, um, you know, the stories or the moments that I chose are ones that have just always been vibrating under the, uh, right under the surface, and found the act of writing it i- in many ways was quite organic. It was sort of I'd sit down, think of a period, think of a relationship that could potentially sort of speak to many things during that time, or a friendship or an incident or what have you, and then sort of mold around that. And f- for me, so much of what came up was the stuff that was kind of always running around, uh, my brain. So some of my earliest memories when I was, you know, in preschool to obviously then all over the place [laughs] throughout. So I think a lot of the, the instances and feelings were quite sort of readily available and tangible. For me, the experience was, I don't know if this comes from like acting or having so much of my life being, uh, a part of telling stories where it was as if I could sort of picture the moment and feel the moment, and it was as if I was just describing this movie I was watching or something.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Do you find, uh, I'm always fascinated by this, especially with people who are in filmmaking, do you find that when you're looking at a memory, you're seeing yourself move or are you kind of the person doing the moving? Does that make sense?
10. EPElliot Page
  Yeah, it does. I think, I think probably both-
11. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
12. EPElliot Page
  ... com- the combination of, of the two.
13. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
14. EPElliot Page
  Probably also a, the- a conscious removal on some level to be able to, you know, give it texture and, and, and, and description that-
15. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
16. EPElliot Page
  ... hopefully will, you know, pull the reader into it.
17. JSJay Shetty
  Absolutely. Where I always find that all my memories, which it took me a long time to realize this, all my memories that are based on pictures are ones where I'm seeing myself as opposed to ... memories that I actually have from my mind, if that-
18. EPElliot Page
  Yeah
19. JSJay Shetty
  ... if that makes sense. Like, whenever I see a picture of me and my family, then I'm like, "Oh, actually I don't have a memory of that. I just have a picture that sparks something." For you, was there a memory that was more of a discovery or a memory that was like, "Oh, I didn't, I forgot that that happened," or, "I maybe didn't pay enough attention to that when it happened"? Was there anything that came up that way, or was it more just things that were already there?
20. EPElliot Page
  I wouldn't say anything sort of necessarily sparked or emer- emerged out of nowhere that was a, w- was a surprise. But I think on some level, and this made, you know, the experience of writing it, of course, intense in moments, but ultimately really healing and cathartic. I think there was a lot of memories that I had just so swept under the rug-
21. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
22. EPElliot Page
  ... where you become so conditioned to let certain things go, certain behavior coming at you go, that even sitting here right now, [laughs] I can kind of feel it in my body to register how much certain things really did affect me and, and my life and my physical wellbeing and my emotional wellbeing and what have you. So it was almost more like there was, like, a therapeutic element [laughs] to it on some level. But sitting with the reality of some things that I think was actually really important.
23. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. Well, thank you for doing it here and, and here, in both places, because I, I c- I can only imagine how much courage it takes to do that. So, so thank you for even experiencing. Even now, as you were saying, you can feel it in your body, and I can see that. It's... I ca- I can only imagine how much courage that takes. So thank you, thank you for going there
7:41 – 10:26
On Being Able To Live His Truth
1. JSJay Shetty
  for us. How does it feel to finally be living the way you've always wanted to and being perceived in the way you've always perceived yourself?
2. EPElliot Page
  It's like getting to feel a way that I never thought was possible.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
4. EPElliot Page
  Like, when I would just think about my future and how I was gonna feel, and I had a very difficult time seeing it. Even this morning I saw a friend, and I don't see him as much 'cause he lives here, and he was just like, this, like, lightness in you. He's just like, "Oh my gosh." It's such a amazing thing to see, and this is someone who's been in my life since I was, you know, first really in Los Angeles at the age of about 20. Like, consistently is when we first met initially. So it's, uh, yeah, it's getting to exist in a way that I never thought possible. Doesn't mean I'm not human who doesn't have [laughs] difficult days or-
5. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
6. EPElliot Page
  ... or, you know, sparks of anxiety naturally. Um, but it's, um, a complete game changer just getting to feel. Being able to do this, this would've been a one, a, uh, impossible before. Impossible. I could've never. Simply the action of sitting down for the length that it takes to have space in my mind freed from everything else that was occupying it, to feel the sort of surge of creativity and feelings of just being inspired-
7. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm
8. EPElliot Page
  ... and waking up and being able to actually sit down with myself and, and do something like this.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
10. EPElliot Page
  Um, impossible before. Impossible.
11. JSJay Shetty
  What would your thoughts about the future have been then that you think made it feel so impossible? As you said, you used to think about the future and it could never have felt as good as it does today, despite there being natural human challenges obviously. But w- yeah, what would, what would that picture of the future would've been?
12. EPElliot Page
  I think the way, like, the way to explain it is almost like... It's almost as if your days... I, I just do feel like for very significant periods of my life I struggled to f- function on a pretty basic level. You know, it was hard for me to just literally sit down. It was hard for me to be productive. It was hard for me to be, you know, present at all. And so the future, I think I couldn't see it 'cause I didn't know how much longer I'd last-
13. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
14. EPElliot Page
  ... feeling that way in my day-to-day life.
15. JSJay Shetty
  How does it feel
10:26 – 15:21
Elliot’s Relationship with Acting Post-Transition
1. JSJay Shetty
  now reconnecting with acting, being who you've always been and perceiving, being perceived in that way? Like, what i- what is acting like now? Has your relationship with acting changed? Is it better? Is it more-
2. EPElliot Page
  So much better.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
4. EPElliot Page
  Yeah. I mean, I mean, literally everything in my life is [laughs] better now-
5. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
6. EPElliot Page
  ... because of how I get to feel and feeling embodied and present and, you know, all these things really for the first time. 'Cause this is the other thing I'd have people say to me or I'd say to myself. Like, like, "You're an actor. Just put on the clothes, flip the switch, play the ga- you know, whatever." But, uh, uh, I wasn't starting from this foundational place, uh, of myself. And as much as acting is about inhabiting, uh, you know, another personality or, um, you know, w- whatever ma- manifestations of, of a character or what have you, it, you're always bringing yourself to a role, right? Like, you're, it's so much about connecting to a character, to a story, to motivation, to emotion, to trauma, to whatever, to the joy, to what have you, and developing your connection with that and then molding something on that. So the, I used to be so profoundly uncomfortable, and I feel like I see that in work, like, uh, inability to sort of, mm, I almost think of the word loose. Like, and now there's, like, this, like, looseness. There's this ability to just, like, exist every day on set, be in my body, and that's the starting point. I'm not having to, like, fight through something to get to the starting point.
7. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
8. EPElliot Page
  You know? Where's, I know people approach the work differently, but to me it's about being as present and open as absolutely possible with all the, you know, information you've gathered about how you wanna, you know, play this role or, uh, uh, approach it. So it's allowing for that, and it's feeling like- How acting felt in the moments when I was the most inspired, which usually were roles that somewhat I could almost handle.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
10. EPElliot Page
  You know, I could handle the, you know, there'd still be some discomfort, but it was at least somewhat closer to who I was, which again, sounds counterintuitive to acting, but to me, the, the presence of it is what makes it possible and the most powerful.
11. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, it's, it's hard to... Even though something's an art and then there's humans, it's hard to separate the two. Like, it's, it's hard to just say, "Oh, well, that's an art." You turn it on like, and off like a switch, and then, then there's your life, and I think we all know that regardless of our disposition or setup, it, they, the two intertwine anyway.
12. EPElliot Page
  Absolutely.
13. JSJay Shetty
  You know? And so what parts of the art do you feel have drastically improved for you now? Like that you just feel more connected to, or as you said, I love the words open and present to you.
14. EPElliot Page
  I mean, to be honest, so much of it is just about not feeling like [censored] on set-
15. JSJay Shetty
  Mm, mm, wow
16. EPElliot Page
  ... and in my trailer when I'm alone and wanting to tear my skin off. I don't know-
17. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
18. EPElliot Page
  ... whatever the sort of physical ways that I would feel, and like, I can remember I'd call my, you know, manager on films and just be like, "I'm, I'm not okay." Like, I c- And not necessarily having the words or having them, but not, not being able to f- fully follow through with the thought, I guess. So, so much of is it actually is... Like, to be honest, if someone had told me, "Oh, you're gonna come out as trans, and you'll never work as an actor again," I would've been like, "Pff, cool." Like, all right, I'd way rather live my life-
19. JSJay Shetty
  Mm. Mm
20. EPElliot Page
  ... and be myself and engage with the world as myself and feel embodied and not feel like I don't know how to get through the day.
21. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
22. EPElliot Page
  Not interested. So for me, I'm mostly like, okay, cool, that the, you know, if I keep, if I do k- get cast, um, [laughs]
23. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
24. EPElliot Page
  The fallout does seem to be this very positive aspect of, of feeling so much more grounded and present that I think I-
25. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
26. EPElliot Page
  ... well, it's gonna make performances better.
27. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
28. EPElliot Page
  And if it doesn't, I doesn't, I don't really care. [laughs]
29. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. Yeah.
30. EPElliot Page
  That's not what life's about for me.
15:21 – 18:33
On Knowing He Was Trans From A Young Age
1. JSJay Shetty
  in the book, you talk about how you're like, "I knew when I was four years old," and it's like that knowingness, and then you use the language of like, you know, tearing off your own skin. Like, that idea to me feels like when there's such a strong knowingness inside, knowing is different to feeling, and, and it sounds like when I was reading, I was like, there was just knowingness and, and I was intrigued as to, is that the right language? Do you agree with that? And what is the difference for you between knowing and feeling? Because I think knowing is so much more of this, like, visceral, deep, grounded, rooting feeling.
2. EPElliot Page
  Yeah, I mean, I suppose they're probably both obviously interrelated to a degree and, and, and connect. I mean, I think at those which are some of my earliest memories, like these moments that were just always like right under the surface, um, was so much of how I felt, uh, at that age and who I knew myself to be and how perplexed I was at how the world was seeing me. And then, and when I was about 10, sort of like, kind of w- w- like pushing my mother to the degree that I was, like, really actually getting to present how I wanted and, like, remembering just how good that felt and the solidness and this, this way I c- I could ex- could exist in the world without the similar feelings that I had a- as a full-blown adult of wanting to rip my skin off that I was feeling at really young ages and not obviously having the words for. But in some ways you're like, "No, wait, I did have the words for them."
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
4. EPElliot Page
  I was going, "This is who I th- am and wanna be, and these are the things that I wanna wear and how I wanna look and present," and you had people going, you know, "No, I'm sorry," you know? So in some ways you're like, "Wait, no, I did have the words." And also, I guess I did to a degree in my 20s and the same thing, people are going, "No, you, you can't do that. You have to do this if you want a future in this industry," for example, or, "You have to be closeted," or what have you. So I think for me, the knowing, the knowing and the feeling relate. The, the knowing and feeling good about the knowing is, is when you feel euphoria, is when you feel that sense of connection, when that's in congruence with, uh, what you've been labeled as and defined as and how you're getting treated versus who you know you are. You know, w- then when that's heightened and, like, you're losing the sense of the knowing, that's when all these awful feelings come up, and the manifestation and the consequences that are self-harm, obviously s- mental health struggles and what have you, feelings of hopelessness. So I suppose they entwine in that way.
5. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I, I'm curious as to friends that you've had in the community who may have been more limited by those statements or that pushback or that judgment- How have you been able to talk to others in
18:33 – 20:17
Connecting With The Trans Community
1. JSJay Shetty
  the community? What do those conversations look like when they're at their healthiest and at their best?
2. EPElliot Page
  Hmm. Gosh. Well, I'd say those conversations are, uh, you know, crucial, right? I'd say community is maybe the biggest reason why I'm even here and-
3. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
4. EPElliot Page
  ... able to exist. And a, a lot [laughs] of those conversations, and it goes both ways in the conversations, is someone speaking to something that might be a, a thought or a feeling that you thought you were alone with, because we obviously don't, you know, there's not a tremendous amount of representation. And when you are able to connect with someone that's having these similar e- experiences that have made you feel very alone, that have filled you with shame, potentially, or put you into a, a, a sense of hiding, is the... Not that you want anyone else to be suffering [laughs] by any means, but when you're able to speak to someone else who's also-
5. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm
6. EPElliot Page
  ... maybe had the similar feelings when they were f- four, whose, uh, m- maybe had similar, uh, manifestations of, uh, of their pain, I suppose, you feel less alone. You are then in a position where, you know, I can offer support, and support's been offered to me from so many trans people that I'm close to, and people I've never met, whose books I've read, whose [laughs] you know, who've deeply inspired me. So.
7. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
8. EPElliot Page
  Yeah.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Were there any particular
20:17 – 22:58
Books & Resources That Supported Elliot On His Journey
1. JSJay Shetty
  books or people that you didn't know that you came across that you think you'd recommend to people to connect with, that you felt were powerful for you while you were obviously, now that your book's gonna play the same role for so many others?
2. EPElliot Page
  Gosh, I mean, so many, and then, yeah, some people I know, some I don't. And, um, also a couple books I've read recently, actually, Travis Alabanza's n- n- book that came out in the UK, comes out here, I think, next month, called None Of The Above, is just astounding. I don't know if you're familiar with them. I don't-
3. JSJay Shetty
  I'm not. No, no, I'm not. Yeah.
4. EPElliot Page
  Brilliant. Um, also a British book called, um, Trans- A Trans Man Walks Into A Gay Bar by Harry Nicholas, I believe. Um, stunning book. Anyway, I just sort of, like, just read those. Oh, and I just read a collection of, um, I don't know if you're familiar with Lou Sullivan.
5. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
6. EPElliot Page
  They've published, like, s- massive amount of his diaries, which I just read, and that was actually quite an interesting read, 'cause at first, you're reading someone's diary, like it is very, "I did this, then I met this person."
7. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
8. EPElliot Page
  And then you really get into the flow of it, and it's very, you know, it's beautiful, it's emotional and intense. And-
9. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
10. EPElliot Page
  ... Janet Mock's books, which are stunning. Those, uh, I read probably around the age of 30. Thomas Page McBee's book Amateur and Man Alive. Um, I'm blanking.
11. JSJay Shetty
  No. I mean, you've given us a great list.
12. EPElliot Page
  [laughs] Yeah.
13. JSJay Shetty
  That's a, that's a phenomenal list, I mean, to even, even get started with. And it's, it's incredible to hear how much, you know, I mean, you were just reeling off of book names there, but it's like so much deep study of, you know... W- have, did you ever keep a diary or during this time, or a journal, or anything at all over your time, or was this something that was all happening in your mind, ultimately?
14. EPElliot Page
  Mine, for the most part, there were little, I did go, like, hunting and, uh, for any kind of old writing from whatever age, and I found some things as a teen, late teens, and like little things from in my 20s, and did kind of regret not writing more, because a lot of those were really helpful, um, and fascinating to just read, you know, thinking back. So no, not so much, but-
15. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. But you'd recommend it as a-
16. EPElliot Page
  Yes
17. JSJay Shetty
  ... as a practice.
18. EPElliot Page
  And I keep meaning to do it, and I've not. [laughs]
19. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs] Even now.
20. EPElliot Page
  I know. But maybe I, like, I wrote a book.
21. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
22. EPElliot Page
  Book tour was a lot. I'm like, I'm just taking a moment, and then I'll-
23. JSJay Shetty
  I think that's fair
24. EPElliot Page
  ... get back into the writing flow. [laughs] Yeah.
25. JSJay Shetty
  No, I think that's completely fair.
26. EPElliot Page
  Yeah.
27. JSJay Shetty
  Books and book tours, it's almost like you finish writing a book and you think the job's done, and then it's, like, just started, and it's, yeah, it's, no, completely, completely understand
22:58 – 25:10
How Parents Can Support Their Children Express Themselves
1. JSJay Shetty
  that. You, you were saying that, you know, and I, I liked how you were thinking that through. You were like, "I actually did have the right words at 4 and then at 10." And I wonder how many young people are going to have the same conversation with their parents in the next few years. I think, you know, we're going to have more parents hearing the words that you used to, from, from their children. What do you think would be a healthy response from parents that you think would be helpful or that you would encourage so that they could be able to better stay connected to their children as they're going on their own journey?
2. EPElliot Page
  I think you really need to just listen to your children and not be dismissive of what they're expressing, not shame them f- or embarrass them for what they're expressing, and allow a child the ex- the space to explore, you know? I mean, even as an adult, the things I was saying to myself, the things I'd internalized, and I remember this moment which when people say things like, "What do you say to young people who might be struggling, or people that are struggling?" Is I went from, "Oh, am I this? Oh, I don't know. Oh," to, "Well, wait, why does this energy need to be this way? Why can't I just be going, 'Huh. Hmm.' Yeah, maybe I am."
3. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
4. EPElliot Page
  "Maybe I'll go find someone and finally sit down and really commit to speaking about this, and how I'm feeling, and my relationship with my gender and my body."
5. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
6. EPElliot Page
  "'Cause I'm not okay."
7. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
8. EPElliot Page
  And why can't I Put my shoulders back and [laughs] speak to this and explore this, and I think in so many ways it's just about creating that space, that gentleness, and listening, and educating yourself.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
10. EPElliot Page
  You know? There is a lack of information, and there is an, a tremendous amount of lies and misinformation about trans people, particularly about our healthcare, particularly about healthcare for youth. So also try [laughs] and educate yourself from actual sources from lived experience and, and also care that's supported by every major medical institution in the United
25:10 – 28:44
Misinformation About Trans Healthcare
1. EPElliot Page
  States.
2. JSJay Shetty
  Mm. Could you ex- a- and, and if this is your field of knowledge, could you expand on some of those lies or some of that misinformation that's out there, especially to do with healthcare?
3. EPElliot Page
  Yeah.
4. JSJay Shetty
  Because I think that would be really useful. If, if you feel comfortable to, yeah.
5. EPElliot Page
  I mean, I can, what, I can do my best, I guess, with, yeah. But, um, I mean, the idea that children's bodies are being mutilated, flat-out lie. Just literally not true. Um, the idea that, uh, puberty blockers are experimental. No. They've been used for decades, um, for children who have, uh, precocious puberty. Um, and this care is sort of framed as something that's, like, very easily accessible and immediate. Not the case at all. Uh, most trans people are, have an incredibly difficult time accessing care. It's n- not how it's being framed in terms of this, um, as if it's getting, like, pushed. [laughs] It's, like, the opposite. Um, and this is, like, a very thorough, patient process that deeply involves the parents, of course, and so much of the care for children or, you know, young kids is just about supporting them, uh, supporting a, a, a social transition potentially, you know, name change, pronoun change, how they might wanna dress, cut their hair, whatever. You know, very, you know, basic aspects [laughs] of, you know, how we exist and how we're alive. And then, you know, the moment a, a child starts to show any sort of characteristic of, of puberty, that's when the conversation, weighed-out conversation [laughs] with all of the information everybody involved about puberty blockers, which can stop. And then, you know, if, if that's the choice, or continue potentially to hormones. And then when we're talking about any kind of, you know, surgical aspect, nothing like that is happening until the age of typically 18, in some cases 16. But, um, so I guess that's, like, the bulk of what I see is this idea that children are getting, like, mutilated or brainwashed or in environments that are forcing it. It's the opposite, actually. You know, trans and gender non-conforming people are, um, bullied, deal with disproportionate violence. Um, so, so much of that is just w- just literally not true.
6. JSJay Shetty
  Right. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, no, it's, it's useful because, yeah, I think that the challenges with, with all of this is, like you said, there's so much information that it's hard for ... I think misinformation and information, that it's hard for people to kind of hear about things effectively. And, and we hope that these conversations like this can lead to people doing their own research, finding the right sources so that they can actually be able to make sense of, you know, something that they may not understand as well, as opposed to having an assumption based on, uh, broad, generalized-
7. EPElliot Page
  Yeah
8. JSJay Shetty
  ... headlines or talking-
9. EPElliot Page
  Or just hearing people that have no... I'm always like, "Oh, I didn't know you were a medical professional. You're not talking about any other sort of [laughs] medical care, uh, uh, in this way," when it's supported by every major medical institution in the United States.
10. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. What
28:44 – 35:05
What Trans Men Bring To Conversations About Masculinity
1. JSJay Shetty
  do you think trans men can add to the conversation of masculinity or add to the thoughts and belief system around masculinity? I'd love to hear your perspectives on that.
2. EPElliot Page
  I think we can add something. [laughs]
3. JSJay Shetty
  I believe it too.
4. EPElliot Page
  Um, and, uh, y- the book Amateur I mentioned by Thomas Page McBee is so much about really a contemplation of masculinity, what it means to be a man, the man he wants to be, what have you. Beautiful book. I think you'd love it. I mean, I've had a lived experience of being perceived as not a man, of course. Um, and also the sort of brief experience of, like, entering that space and, like, getting sort of treated in a different way where in many ways I feel so much for cis men being brought up and the limits put on them emotionally, encouraged to be, y- you know, not sensitive, that vulnerability is weakness on some level or what have you, just ingrained misogyny. Obviously, we live in a very misogynistic society, queer-phobic society, transphobic society. And having certain experiences I've had in my life with men, um, has definitely highlighted certain things that I personally wouldn't wanna be, and I suppose trans men, trans masc people can come to the table with, uh, with those e- experiences and-
5. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
6. EPElliot Page
  ... and potentially offer something different or an insight that's different or... I hope for cis men in so many ways that there can be more encouragement for expressing emotion-
7. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
8. EPElliot Page
  ... and sensitivity and having close friendships with other men, and all these things that seem to, to happen that are Um, toxic
9. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think there's become such a pressure as well to just play the role of protector and provider, and that stoic kind of cold demeanor around emotion or challenges or stress. And that comes with its own form of limits to the human experience, to self-expression, to... You know, I've, I've always found personally, because I was raised by my mom growing up and witnessed her struggle and her stress and her pain and her, her challenge and just her resilience, and then also with a younger sister, it was-- I found that very useful because I grew up in an environment that was highly emotive and highly supportive of being emotive and, and, and expressing emotion. And I often think about if I didn't have that experience, I don't know where else I would've got that from in my life. And, and that's interesting to think about. Like, how I, I could have grown up and never had that compass. It would, it would never even have come across me. Where else would I have learned that? I wouldn't have-- definitely wouldn't have learned it at school, definitely wouldn't have learned it at college, and then in the world of work, I definitely wouldn't have learned it either. So you could literally spend your whole life and never access some of these subtle, nuanced expressions which are so key. Are there any specific interactions you've had or moments you've had where this kind of experience has been heightened, or some of the things you mentioned that you felt like, "Oh, wow, this was, this was really powerful for someone or something"?
10. EPElliot Page
  I think maybe it allowed me to have certain conversations-
11. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
12. EPElliot Page
  ... with cis men that I hadn't had before. Like, it created an, an opening and, to be quite frankly, more empathy.
13. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
14. EPElliot Page
  Because I've had not great experiences with men and, um, it's easy to lose [chuckles] some of the empathy sometimes, you know?
15. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
16. EPElliot Page
  I think it's allowed me to have conversations with men about how they have not felt permitted to express themselves or have close relationships with other men or, you know, a sort of a certain age where emoting or self-expression in that way is, is not seen as a positive.
17. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
18. EPElliot Page
  And if anything, you know, aggression is more, you know, celebrated or, or, or encouraged, which is damaging to the person themself and obviously the world. In my life, I've noticed things that are just more, you know, subtle, but, like, m- men who used to, if I hadn't seen them for a while, we used to hug, and then now we're like, there's no hug, and I'm just like, you know, these little [chuckles] things and I'm like, "Wow, that's fascinating," you know?
19. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
20. EPElliot Page
  You know, even myself at the very beginning, like, going-- ha- having these, like, really brief moments like, "Oh, should I talk with my hands less?" Like, what, Elliot? Did that thought actually just enter your brain? No, be exactly who you are. But it highlighted something, that even just in that tiny amount of time, something in me was starting to judge myself about how I was gonna be as the man that I am, I'm gonna grow up to be. And it's, you know, it's, it's sort of embarrassing to, to, to admit, but feeling those, those sort of, yeah, pressures or misguided, um, thoughts.
21. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
22. EPElliot Page
  But yeah, I think it's allowed me to have quite meaningful conversations with-
23. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
24. EPElliot Page
  ... with male friends that, um, we hadn't really had before.
25. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. And they probably haven't had before.
26. EPElliot Page
  Yeah, and I think... And then I will say one thing. [chuckles]
27. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
28. EPElliot Page
  I feel like a lot is blamed on testosterone, and as someone who's literally, joke's on me, going through puberty again, I will say, like, I'm not more angry. I'm the least angry I've ever been. It doesn't, like, I think, you know, we're not taking into account the degree of socialization and, and, uh, and, like, toxic limitations that en- encourage, you know, a lot of the behavior and issues we see with toxic masculinity.
29. JSJay Shetty
  Mm. Another challenge
35:05 – 36:15
Non-Conforming & Trans Youth Are Statistically More Prone To Develop An Eating Disorder
1. JSJay Shetty
  that you've raised in the book, you said research has shown that transgender and gender non-conforming youth are four times more likely to struggle with an eating disorder. That obviously creates its own complexity. What, what was the-- what does the research point to as the reason behind that and, and how people can find support around that, especially with that complication?
2. EPElliot Page
  Well, gosh, I mean, I'm not a, obviously, like, a professional-
3. JSJay Shetty
  No, no, of course. Yeah
4. EPElliot Page
  ... that can give some exact-
5. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, what have you come across-
6. EPElliot Page
  I mean-
7. JSJay Shetty
  ... is my question. Yeah
8. EPElliot Page
  ... I mean, from my experience, it's, you know, a profound discomfort in the body of wanting to have a sense of control. For me, in some ways, I think, too, being smaller, I, I looked more boyish when I was the, you know. So this sort of way of, like, literally controlling the body and also just the sort of s- uh, you know, sort of psychically, mentally, so much of your time becomes consumed with those thoughts that I think it's allowing you to not focus on other things, to think about other things, to contemplate other things.
9. JSJay Shetty
  Mm. You talk about in the book about how, like, your thoughts were consumed with contemplation for a very long time, and I
36:15 – 38:12
How Transitioning Helped Clear Elliot’s Headspace
1. JSJay Shetty
  guess that now that you're able to not have to contemplate those same thoughts, almost like what we were talking about at the beginning about the thoughts about the future and the thoughts about it being impossible, what, now that you have that head space back, or hopefully more of it back, what would that now be-- what are you directing that towards? Or what opportunity is that opening? Or where are you able to spend that thought power?
2. EPElliot Page
  Wrote a book.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Wrote [laughs]
4. EPElliot Page
  Yeah. [laughs] Uh, I wrote a, yeah, I wrote a book. I mean, I make, you know, for fun, like, music with a friend. Uh, it's actually hard to describe when it's literally now every aspect and every moment of my life.
5. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
6. EPElliot Page
  You know? Like, when people go, "Oh, what was your last ... inc- incident of, like, gender euphoria. I'm like, oh, this morning when I was drinking coffee in silence and just being able to sit and have my coffee
7. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
8. EPElliot Page
  Doing things in the past that, like, I did enjoy, but a part of me wasn't there. So it could just be-
9. JSJay Shetty
  Mm, mm
10. EPElliot Page
  ... going to meet some friends in, in the park
11. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm
12. EPElliot Page
  And I'm really able to just be in the park with them
13. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
14. EPElliot Page
  I'm not thinking about, oh, well, are they gonna... Did I eat? Well, you only ate this much time ago, and oh God, I'm so uncomfortable, and tucking down my shirt-
15. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
16. EPElliot Page
  ... and looking and just kinda wanting to get out always
17. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
18. EPElliot Page
  Like, always wanting to just... The sense of always wanting to flee. And now sometimes, of course, there's moments where I'm like, "I'd really love to just be home reading a book right now." [laughs]
19. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
20. EPElliot Page
  I mean, like, I'm not, like, it's not like I'm, like, Johnny Social all of a sudden. But going from having, like, a very difficult time being social and feeling connected or now getting to feel, like, immersed in life-
21. JSJay Shetty
  Mm, mm
22. EPElliot Page
  ... versus struggling to know how to live it
23. JSJay Shetty
  Wow. That, that g- that definitely registers. Hearing that definitely hits. Thank you for explaining that. There's, when you went on the book tour, and you obviously, as you just said, you wrote the book.
38:12 – 44:30
Elliot Shares The Moving Responses To Pageboy
1. JSJay Shetty
  What's been, what have been the responses that have really warmed your heart or that have really connected to you in a way that are gonna stay with you for a long, long time, either on tour or y- I'm sure you've had so many people write to you because of the book and write to your team and everyone else. What are some of the, what are some of those that you could tell us now, especially now that the book's been out for a while? I'm guessing it's only getting more and more.
2. EPElliot Page
  Hmm. Yeah, I think, um, the most moving, uh, and beautiful responses are people kind of expressing at all ages how me sharing my story has helped them, you know, uh, feel less alone, helped them talk to their parents in a new way, helped them feel, carry less shame. I had a letter from someone who was, they might have, they might have been f- you know, 50, and they'd read the book, and then, like, you know, finally had decided, "Yes, I'm going on testosterone," and just saying, like, how much that decision had changed their life, and I fully was, like, crying when I read this. I was just so, um, well, thankful that they'd wanna, you know, share that with me, and also to know that anything you could have done or expressed would, would help someone feel less alone 'cause I know how alone you can feel. I know how overwhelmed and burdened you can feel by this self-hate and discomfort that just is constantly running through your body and what it means when you do get those moments of clarity and feel connection. I've, I've, as I've said, I've had that with books I've read or, you know, friendships and, and what communi- communities offered me.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
4. EPElliot Page
  So those are beautiful moments. And then even, you know, a friend of mine who's, who's trans masc and they, their mom read the book in, like, a, a couple days, and they said, "I'm now having conversations with my mom that I didn't think were possible before."
5. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
6. EPElliot Page
  It's just like... I mean, at the end of the day, like, that's the point.
7. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
8. EPElliot Page
  I mean, that's really the point. It's like, why else am I, like, spilling my guts in this thing? Like, sometimes [laughs] I'd be, like-
9. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
10. EPElliot Page
  ... leading up to it coming out, I'm like, "Oh my God, why'd you write about that?" [laughs] You know?
11. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
12. EPElliot Page
  And then when you have those moments that you know it could be helping someone, it's just like-
13. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
14. EPElliot Page
  ... to me, that's the point.
15. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. Did you encounter anyone that initially may have been, you know, in their own way initially critical or judgmental and then was able to kind of even just sit with you and hear from you or, and, and was able to comprehend and understand just even a glimpse into the journey? Did, did you come across any of that or hear about any of those types of stories from anyone?
16. EPElliot Page
  I mean, I suppose people, I don't know if, uh, you know, the individual went on, like, some huge arc-
17. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, yeah
18. EPElliot Page
  ... or a change of thought-
19. JSJay Shetty
  No, no, yeah
20. EPElliot Page
  ... but that it enabled them to, to think about and understand the experience a bit more. And actually, in so many ways that I think so special is how much they also related to it, despite having an, a very different experience-
21. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
22. EPElliot Page
  ... you know, not being trans and, and-
23. JSJay Shetty
  How did they relate to it? What was-
24. EPElliot Page
  They related it being, um, you know, cis and gay, and so obviously there's gonna be, like, overlap there.
25. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
26. EPElliot Page
  But had, th- maybe they did have their certain feelings about trans people or thoughts, and the book really did help, you know, their mind change to a degree.
27. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. I'm so glad that, I mean, there's so many books that you mentioned today that I wanna read, and I know that, you know, our community is hopefully gonna read Pageboy as well after this. But it's fascinating to me just how, how we all became trained in different ways, conditioned in different ways to become closed to experiences that you would hope we would have become more curious to learn about and more open to learn about. And it's, it's fascinating to me as a society how we've become more and more close-minded about so many issues, as opposed to being broad-minded, when it obviously makes sense to be open-minded about things, makes us a healthier, happier, more growth-focused human. And for me, I've always talked about how I think the best thing that happened to me is I met people who were very different to society when I was young.
28. EPElliot Page
  Mm-hmm.
29. JSJay Shetty
  And when I say different, I mean, for me, it was, um- ... uh, meeting spiritual monks. Like, that was my personal journey. And so meeting a monk at 18 years old was so random to my life's journey that it was great because it presented a whole new way of thinking and ideology that I would never have ever thought could even be possible, and it became such a big part of my life. And I, I just, I'm, I'm hoping that, you know, stories like yours and stories like this will continue to help people open up their minds to recognize how much there is in common that we have and how much there is in common experience that we can learn from and be guided by, even if it's not the same experience. Would that, would that be an accurate mission statement to p- a part of the mission statement?
30. EPElliot Page
  Absolutely. Ideally, yeah.
44:30 – 47:30
Elliot On Romantic Relationships & Being Single
1. JSJay Shetty
  on love changed and that area of your life?
2. EPElliot Page
  Definitely very different now than I was in before. I was very much, which I think's maybe relatively evident in the book, a bit of a serial monogamist and just, like, really th- did find it so hard to exist and, and, and function that I, I do think, like, I needed someone. Like, I... And the moment there was, like, attraction or a feeling, it's just sort of like, "Uh-huh."
3. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
4. EPElliot Page
  You know? Like [laughs] and like hold on tight, you know?
5. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
6. EPElliot Page
  And, and staying in situations that, um, I'm sure a lot of people, again, this is something that so many people would relate to in different ways, situations that weren't the wisest, that probably weren't great for either party involved, and that came from really just not knowing how to exist by myself. And the feeling of love, right, oof, that's like, ah, like we escape. It's, pardon the pun, but transcendent. You know? It's ... And that feeling would give me a spark of life. It would give me a moment of, "I can breathe." Ultimately, though, that's not the reason why I think we should be with someone.
7. JSJay Shetty
  [laughs]
8. EPElliot Page
  And, um, it's tad selfish on my part. And, uh, now I am so blown away by the fact that I can be alone. Like, that is such an exhilarating sensation, a p- uh, an element of the feeling away I never thought was possible, that right now I'm very much enjoying being, you know, connecting with people-
9. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah [laughs]
10. EPElliot Page
  ... having some fun, but just sort of being on my own right now.
11. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
12. EPElliot Page
  And that is very new for me.
13. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
14. EPElliot Page
  Very new for me.
15. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
16. EPElliot Page
  And I want love and a relationship to be, you know... I mean, our stuff's always gonna follow us into intimate relationships, I know, but, you know, come from a, a solid and embodied foundation where I know I'm going into that 'cause we're gonna love each other and explore life together and grow together and not because I'm clinging to something for dear life.
17. JSJay Shetty
  Mm. That sounds like it must be such a, such a-
18. EPElliot Page
  So I'm single, so. [laughs]
19. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. [laughs] I love it. No, but [laughs] that was brilliant. I was, I was about to say, like, just how meaningful that must feel, like to, you know, it must f- i- it sounds like such a, a profound place that, you know, such a deep space to, to feel that centeredness and stillness in being with oneself and that confidence of just, of just being in oneself. But you're single, so-
20. EPElliot Page
  Yeah. [laughs]
21. JSJay Shetty
  ... that's we, we gotta throw that out there.
47:30 – 51:50
The Challenges & Privileges of Being A Trans Celebrity
1. JSJay Shetty
  How do you think the journey, and of course you know the communities, the trans community so well, so you would know, h- how, how do you think the journey is different when you are in the public eye versus when you're not? Like, there are the obvious differences, of course, with, we've talked about, like, the pressure from successive movies and things like that, but are there any more nuanced or subtle things that some of us could miss in plain sight because you're not living that journey or-
2. EPElliot Page
  Mm
3. JSJay Shetty
  ... you're not seeing it?
4. EPElliot Page
  Don't know. I mean, it's so funny 'cause it's just, like, my-
5. JSJay Shetty
  I know, yeah
6. EPElliot Page
  ... strange experience in this-
7. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
8. EPElliot Page
  ... in this life. Um, I mean, maybe in that you're just going through this transition in front of a lot of people, um, and having people speculate or-
9. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
10. EPElliot Page
  ... make comments or assumptions about your life and your experience that can often be incredibly hurtful and demeaning and, at the same time, everything, everything's, like, you know, relative. Everyone's sort of having that in their own individual orbit, and my position obviously comes with such an enormous amount of privilege. Like, my life does not reflect the lives of most trans people who deal with, you know, disproportionate amount of unemployment, poverty, incarceration, violence-
11. JSJay Shetty
  Mm
12. EPElliot Page
  ... et cetera, um, particularly Black trans people. So I'd be lying if I said there weren't certain elements of this sort of unusual experience that don't have its sort of challenges or difficult moments.
13. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
14. EPElliot Page
  And at the same time, what I always go back to is, uh- The degree in which my privilege and resources help and also protect me, you know?
15. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
16. EPElliot Page
  If I'm getting threats, I have the money to hire security. I could get s- you know, pay for surgery to get it quickly. You know, all of these aspects that ... Name change, all, you know, think about that, all those documents. You're just, you know, your passport. Like, all of these things that, um, for those that, you know, d- don't have the certain privileges and resources I have is, is incredibly difficult and makes life incredibly difficult.
17. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, and I'm, I'm glad you raised that point because, yeah, I think, yeah, we have, we have to also look at it from that perspective of just, again, going back to the reality of what these choices and decisions, like, actually look like in, in the real world because similar ... And, and I appreciate that view from you constantly of, like, looking at it from, well, this is what it actually looks like. This is what's actually going on. This is, this is what we may not see if we're only looking at the, you know, the ... And again, that doesn't take away from your journey as well. Like, that, that shouldn't take away from the challenges and stresses and the, the realities of what you, what you're experiencing. But I, I wanted to pivot to certain things because I feel like, I feel like the book is just the beginning of so many more exciting, incredible, uh, adventures of, of what you'll go on to do and achieve, and I heard that you're a big, uh, history buff. Uh, and, and I'm guessing you're doing a lot of reading there. I wonder whether there's any, uh, has there been ... And, and you talked about even just, I, I love what you've been saying that just ... And, and you know, when I'm hearing someone speak and it really, the way you express this has, is really gonna stay with me, this idea that the biggest win is just you being able to do the simplest things in a present way. Like, that will stay with me so much because it's something that we all take for granted so much. Like, you know, you just, I know I do. Like, it's a, it's a very easy thing to miss out on, and some of us are not even present. But even if we are present, we take that for granted. And so the idea that you feel so much presence in just having coffee this morning or, like, reading a book or being with friends in the park or what, you know, all those examples you were giving, uh, yeah, I, I wanted to dive into what, seeing as you're such a big reader, uh, when did you become such a history buff, and, and what has been the latest historic discovery that, that has kind of brought you joy?
18. EPElliot Page
  I haven't been reading too much stuff about history.
19. JSJay Shetty
  Or anything
51:50 – 53:07
Book Recommendations
1. JSJay Shetty
  else. Any- anything you're reading.
2. EPElliot Page
  Oh. Lately, I've been reading, um, Octavia Butler 'cause I, embarrassed to say, I hadn't read Octavia Butler before. So I just read Wild Seed and Kindred. I guess, obviously, those books have a his- fantastical sort of history, but obviously a very intense history element to it, a, you know, partic- you know, like Wild Seed and Kindred, a very brutal history. Been reading more novels lately.
3. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
4. EPElliot Page
  Yeah. Obviously, both of Octavia Butler's books are novels, but also, um, Our Wives Under the Sea was tremendous. Brandon Taylor's new novel. I'm trying to ... Is it called The Last Americans? I might be getting the name wrong, but his latest novel was amazing. So less, like, history specific, but-
5. JSJay Shetty
  But it's all history, yeah
6. EPElliot Page
  ... but obviously there's historical elements in a lot of the, those different things.
7. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah.
8. EPElliot Page
  Not really the Brandon Taylor one at all.
9. JSJay Shetty
  No, no [laughs] not the novel, but yeah.
10. EPElliot Page
  Yeah.
11. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, the other ones.
12. EPElliot Page
  Yeah.
13. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah, no, no, and, and, and I think that, that is the point where, like, I think-
14. EPElliot Page
  It's next one
15. JSJay Shetty
  ... biographies and diaries and autobiographies are all, have historical elements to them. I mean, that's, that's where they come from. And one part that felt very journal-like in your
53:07 – 56:11
Having A Moment Of Self-love
1. JSJay Shetty
  book was, um, at the end of the book, you describe being at the show with Mark-
2. EPElliot Page
  Mm
3. JSJay Shetty
  ... and having a moment of self-love that you wanted to hold on to, and you say, "Taking a deep breath, exhaling, exhaling down to my toes. I wanted to hold on to the feeling, to pocket the joy, the fleeting moments of self-love." And I thought that felt very diary-like. Like, it felt very, like, journaled thought. It was, you know, very unique words. And I, I wanted to know, like, why did you choose to end the book at 16 years old? Like, again, we talked about the nonlinear, but specifically to end on that after going through this journey back and forth, what was it, what was so ... Yeah, why, why end on 16 years old?
4. EPElliot Page
  Yeah. Well, I felt like I sort of began the book at this time that was, um, also involved Mark and was this period of feeling more self-love, feeling closer to myself, falling in love with my first girlfriend, Paula, and then, you know, that leading up to a moment that was a big pivot in, in my life. And then to sort of, uh, you know, bookend that with this moment, 16, Peaches concert, what would've been the queerest environment I'd probably been in at that point in my life, and the just palpable joy, the electricity of it. And I'll never forget that night. I'll never forget walking home with Mark and what that felt like, what that community felt like. And to end on that note there, at 16, having that atmosphere to go to, having that incredible performer who's inspired me since I was a teenager, oh, it felt like a special moment to end on.
5. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I definitely felt it. It's, it's wonderful to have that experience of euphoria through your experience in that moment, and You know, Elliot, we, I, I just wanna say how honestly I was so excited to meet you today and, and do this interview, and I love it when this happens, when you get an experience that you didn't know you were gonna get, and that's how I feel with you today, where, uh, you can always intellectualize what you think you're gonna learn or what you think you're gonna gain, and I had all those ideas, which I definitely have learned so much. It's not that I haven't learned, but it's, I've kind of been moved more internally and, and I feel that that's sometimes even more valuable because it's something that I can express from a deep place within myself, and I feel like I've been moved by you sharing your experience so thoughtfully and intimately in your book, but also in even getting the opportunity to sit with you today.
56:11 – 1:02:19
Elliot On Final Five
1. JSJay Shetty
  And I only have a couple more questions for you. We ask at the end of every interview, we do a final five, which is a fast five in the sense that they have to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum, but I always ruin it because I'm so intrigued by all my guests, but I'll try. So Elliot Page, these are your final five. The first question is: What is the best advice you've ever heard or received? And it can be about any topic you choose it to be about.
2. EPElliot Page
  You know what? I don't know why this is popping-
3. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
4. EPElliot Page
  ... into my brain, but there's a memory popping in my brain, so I'm like, "Why not go with this?"
5. JSJay Shetty
  Mm-hmm.
6. EPElliot Page
  And the time in that period when everyone's sort of go-to was, "Your dream's coming true. Your dream's coming true. Your dream's coming true," Kate Winslet said to me, and I was, still am, obsessed with Kate Winslet, love, one of just my favorite actors of all time, and I was too shy to go up to her at this, like, party or something. It would've been the first time we met. She just came up to me and was like... Oops, obviously I, took me a long time to listen to the advice properly, but she was just like, "Don't let them change you." Like, "Don't..." Like, you hold onto yourself essentially. "Don't let this-
7. JSJay Shetty
  Wow.
8. EPElliot Page
  And I'll never forget it. It was, I think, the only person in who that whole period basically said anything like that, you know, from that-
9. JSJay Shetty
  Wow
10. EPElliot Page
  ... and I've always remembered it, and it's always meant a lot to me.
11. JSJay Shetty
  I think that's a great answer, and yeah, what a beautiful statement. "Don't let them change you. Hold onto yourself." That's, that's beautiful. Okay, great. Uh, second question: What is the worst advice you've ever had or received?
12. EPElliot Page
  [laughs]
13. JSJay Shetty
  I'm sure this is easier.
14. EPElliot Page
  Yeah. Yeah. Don't be, you know, don't tell people you're queer and disguise yourself to, to trick them.
15. JSJay Shetty
  Mm. Yeah, even those words, "disguise yourself to trick them," it's like, yeah, it's, it's hard to live in a disguise and as a trick, so-
16. EPElliot Page
  Which is just so silly, too, as if like, "So you're telling me lesbians don't wear dress-" Like what-
17. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah
18. EPElliot Page
  ... are we, like, just the whole-
19. JSJay Shetty
  What are we... Yeah
20. EPElliot Page
  ... binary aspect is just ridiculous.
21. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. What are we trying... Yeah.
22. EPElliot Page
  So boring.
23. JSJay Shetty
  Yeah. [laughs]
24. EPElliot Page
  God.
25. JSJay Shetty
  Question number three: Uh, what is something you used to value that you no longer value?
26. EPElliot Page
  I think, like, a certain i- idea of what we envision success to be.
27. JSJay Shetty
  Mm.
28. EPElliot Page
  You know? That's not really that important to me anymore.
29. JSJay Shetty
  Mm. Yeah, and that was clear from what you said earlier, the idea that you were willing to let it all go if you're allowed to be who you are and be yourself.
30. EPElliot Page
  Totally. Yeah.