How To Break The Addiction To NEGATIVE THOUGHTS & EMOTIONS | Oprah Winfrey

Oprah Winfrey 0:00 Your worldview is that people are going to abandon you in their relationships, and so you either go into those relationships being very needy and afraid, or you go into those relationships being very jealous.

Jay Shetty 0:12 Why is it so important to make this switch from us thinking what is wrong with you to what happened to you?

Oprah Winfrey 0:22 Well, I, I... Let me answer that because I first, uh, came across this question of what's happened, what, what, what, what, what happened to you when I was doing an interview with Dr. Bruce Perry a couple of years ago for a 60 Minutes story I was doing. Now, I've known, uh, Dr. Perry for over 30 years. I first started interviewing him in the early '90s, late '80s, early '90s, on the Oprah show, when we were talking about, uh, raising children and how important it is, those first zero to six years. So I've been hearing about what it means to nurture and support the brain early on. It wasn't until that conversation a couple of years ago, I don't know whether... I, I think it's because of where I was in my life at the time. Um, I opened a school in South Africa. I've had these wonderful, brilliant girls who come from traumatic backgrounds, grow up and have really serious mental health issues. And I was trying to, at the time, figure out what are we doing wrong at our school? Something's really wrong here. And in that interview with Dr. Perry, he said, "You know, most people ask the question when kids are not behaving the way you want them to behave of what's wrong with them. We really should be asking about what's happened to you." And something went, "Aha, aha, aha" in my brain.

Jay Shetty 1:45 [laughs]

Oprah Winfrey 1:45 It was like a major moment. Like, I got it in a way that I hadn't received it before. And I realized that it's not just for children that you ask that question, but it's really everybody. And that moment-

Jay Shetty 1:57 Mm

Oprah Winfrey 1:57 ... Bruce, as I've said to you many times, Dr. Perry, changed the way I saw my relationships, how I saw my own life, how I interacted with people. And even in politics, where it was so crazy in the past four years, and everybody's always talking about what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong, I would always say, "I wonder what happened to that person. I wonder what-

Jay Shetty 2:18 Mm

Oprah Winfrey 2:18 ... happened to them younger that caused them to be this way." So all of the labels that you just gave, Jay, uh, there, there's a world of labels. There is, you know, overachiever. There's, you know, obsessive compulsive moms, soccer moms. There is the desire to, you know, please people all the time. There's a multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple labels that refer back to what happened to us. And so I will just-

Jay Shetty 2:46 Mm

Oprah Winfrey 2:46 ... say this. One of the things that Bruce says in the book, "Each of us comes into the world with our own worldview, and that worldview is actually shaped from the crib."

Jay Shetty 2:58 Mm.

Oprah Winfrey 2:59 "And you get from the world what you project into the world, and you project into the world what you were raised with and what you were raised around." So that's why what happened to you is the essential question.

Jay Shetty 3:16 So beautifully said, and I, I wish my brain had aha moments that sound like that, Oprah, too, so. [laughs]

Oprah Winfrey 3:22 [laughs] Aha!

Jay Shetty 3:24 [laughs] I love that. And Dr. Perry, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Speaker 3:31 Well, I, I come at this from a slightly different perspective because I have a long history of being a history fan and had studied history, uh, growing up and was very well aware of the relationship between the things that happened in the past playing a major role in how things were functioning currently, and I think that that's... I, I think most people are able to kind of make that connection. But as I became a biologist and learned about the development of the human body and the human brain, it became clear that we have our own personal history and that the things that happened in our life shape the systems in our brain that influence how we think about things, how we feel about things, and how we behave, and it really, it, it leads to a completely different approach to getting to know somebody. You're, you, you, you enter the interaction with a curious mindset. You're curious about, like, what, what's going on? I mean, it, it... and, and it really, I think is, as Oprah says, it, it really opens up this new perspective on understanding a person. You can be much more empathic with them as opposed to being so judgmental.

Jay Shetty 4:42 Yeah, for me, that reframing that you both have so beautifully illuminated in this book is, is so subtle, but it's so powerful because it removes that judgment. It removes that, uh, negative observation, that criticism, that, that fear that people feel on the receiving end of that as well. To me, just that switch of question is, is so powerful. So what I wanna do now is I wanna ask you both questions, uh, throughout the different chapters of the book, since no one really has it till today. Uh, and I'd like to start with you, Dr. Perry, and ask you what, what happened to you? What inspired you to study child trauma? You know, where did your journey start, and why did it become so important to you? Because obviously, this is something that you've done for decades. Tell us about the beginning of that journey.

Speaker 5:32 [clears throat]

Speaker 5:33 Well, it started kind of randomly because, uh, when I went to college at Stanford, they have a freshman seminar, um, process where they take incoming freshmen and they assign them to, uh, some eminent faculty member, and then for every week for the whole year, you meet with that person and you get to know their work and have conversations. It's a great experience. And I was randomly assigned to, uh, Seymour Levine, who is the grandfather, and now great-grandfather, of almost all of the big stress researchers in our field. And he had just been doing a series of studies looking at how you could take a little rat pup, uh, and give it a tiny little bit of stress, handling stress. You just take it out of it- the litter, hold it, and then put it back after a certain period of time, and then let the animal grow up. And then when they looked at those animals, their brain was very different than the brains of animals that didn't have that tiny little stress. And I thought that was stunning, that you could have an experience that was literally minutes long, and it would influence, in a lifelong way, the functioning of this really critical set of systems in your brain that are involved in how y- how every organ in your body functions. And from that point forward, I was studying the development of the stress response systems in animals and then got into clinical work, and it's interesting, you know, going back to what Oprah said about labels. When you go into mental health and get- start to get trained, there is a manual that people use, the, the DSM, and it's full of labels, and it's based on the symptoms that somebody has. And basically, it's a big book that says, "What's wrong with you?" [laughs] And it doesn't say what happened to you. And so I was a developmentalist, and I had been studying the brain, and I went into the field and I'm like, "Wait a minute. W- w- there's about 30 different ways that you can become inattentive." You know, you can have attention problems from hyperthyroidism and developmental trauma and, you know, lead toxicity, and all kinds of things. We need to ask, you know, we need to get to know the people that we're giving these labels, and if we did that, I think that we would stop giving them labels and start giving them some solutions.

Jay Shetty 7:50 Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that. And Oprah, as you were saying earlier, it's, the book is full of stories and the science, and when I was reading about your own childhood stories and trauma- traumas in this book, it's, it's difficult at times and it's challenging, but at the same time, your level of honesty and transparency is, is genuinely such an inspiration for myself and countless other people who are struggling as well. And, you know, when I, when I was diving into the book, there were, there were moments where I just, I was so grateful to you for what you shared. And, you know, you open up about a story about how your grandmother used to whip you over the smallest, most insignificant things like spilling a glass of water, and this harsh-

Oprah Winfrey 8:35 Breaking a plate. Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 8:35 Right. Exactly. Breaking a plate. And this harsh, this harsh behavior was normal for you as a kid, and you said something in the book that really stood out to me. You said that the long-term impact of being whipped turned you into a world-class people pleaser for most of your life. I want to know, how did you become aware of that connection between that experience as a child and how it was being lived today, and how did that start to help you on your journey?

Oprah Winfrey 9:08 Well, thank you so much. I'm so moved that you were touched by that story because I, until I was a full-grown adult and I met my best friend Gail, Gail is the first Black person I ever met who wasn't whipped as a child. I mean-

Jay Shetty 9:24 Wow

Oprah Winfrey 9:24 ... she was the first person I ever encountered. So it is a part of the Black culture to not just spank your children. Uh, almost everybody you run into of a certain age was whipped as a child. So that-

Jay Shetty 9:38 Mm.

Oprah Winfrey 9:38 ... was such the norm for me that writing about it, um, for the first time is the first time I a- actually recognized, oh, this is not a normal thing.

Jay Shetty 9:50 Mm.

Oprah Winfrey 9:51 Um, so, uh, to, really, I was in a boardroom having to confront someone in my 40s, and I had so much anxiety about the fact that I was gonna have to have this confrontation with somebody. And it-

Jay Shetty 10:10 Mm.

Oprah Winfrey 10:10 ... it just, just, just the most, um, n- normal disagreements would cause me a great sense of angst and worry and, "Oh, my God," and, "What's gonna happen?" And I just said, "What... Where is this coming from? What, what, w- why am I so afraid when I am the one in the power seat? I am Oprah Winfrey running the Harpo Studios, my name spelled backwards. I'm the person in charge, and in order to have a disagreement with somebody, I go through so much angst." And I realized, Jay, that even though I had the power, I still felt that every confrontation I was gonna get a whipping.

Jay Shetty 10:57 Mm-hmm.

Oprah Winfrey 10:57 That a whipping was gonna result. That, that-

Jay Shetty 11:00 Wow

Oprah Winfrey 11:00 ... thing that c- that used to come up inside me when I had to walk to get my own switch. Oh, where is this feeling coming? I'm feeling like in every confrontation I'm gonna get a whipping, and at the end of it, that person's gonna be mad at me, and at the end of it, that person's gonna say, "You better not act like you're mad." You know, all the things that happened to me as a kid. So it wasn't until I was a full-grown adult in my own seat of, you know, perceived power, feeling those feelings of anxiety and anxiousness, having to have the slightest bit of confrontation. So what I say in What Happened To Me is that being beaten as a child, um, having to be subservient to other people's ideals of what it means to be a child, meaning you are seen and not heard. So I've grown up to have this big personality, but being raised in an environment where children are seen and not heard, and your opinions do not matter. So What Happened To Me taught me that my opinions do not matter. Keep your opinions to yourself, and do whatever you can to please other people so that other people will like you. So that other people will not be upset with you. And I will have to tell you, it is also, for me, not for everybody else, but for me, one of the reasons why I was so susceptible to sexual abuse. Because I had been taught and trained not to speak up for myself, that whatever somebody wanted to do who was older than me or in a position of authority, that they had rights I, that I did not. So that what happened to me was ingrained in a way that, you know, literally, uh, caused me to be a major people pleaser for, for a great deal of my life.

Jay Shetty 12:57 Thank you for sharing that, that full journey. And just, I really gravitate towards that statement you said around how we, when we normalize something, we don't actually even recognize the trauma in it.

Oprah Winfrey 13:09 Right.

Jay Shetty 13:09 Uh, we, we don't even realize that it, that there's anyth- it was just normal to you. You just expected it. And I think that really brings us nicely, uh, Dr. Perry, to this, this thought about what something you talk about how we're loved in the book. And, you know, you say that a common phrase people use whenever a child acts out is that he or m- she must not have been loved as a child, right? And in the book, you go on to explain that, how it isn't a matter of how many hugs and kisses you received as a kid. Uh, so for the parents watching, and I'm sure there are many parents watching, and for those of you who are watching right now and enjoying this conversation, I highly recommend to make sure that you go and order yourself a copy of the book. Uh, but for those of you that are watching, and Dr. Perry, when you think about this, what should parents be thinking about differently or doing differently that many of them may be missing today in the idea of wanting to give love, and often our perspective on what love is or our definition of what love is feels like hugs and kisses?

Speaker 14:13 Well, first of all, I, uh, to, to, to clarify, love, lo- you know, hugs and kisses are nice things, and, and they can be part of a really positive, loving environment. But one of the things about the brain is that these systems in our brain that allow us to form relationships and maintain them in a healthy way, the systems that allow us to love and be empathic and become ultimately humane, these systems develop like any other system in the brain that require repetition, repetition, repetition. That, uh, when you wanna get better at piano, you have to practice your piano. When you wanna get better at reading, you need to read and read and read. And if you wanna develop the capacity to form a healthy, loving relationship, you need lots of tiny little doses of attentive, attuned, responsive, nurturing interaction with people around you. And, uh, you know, a lot of people grow up, and, and again, this is, this, this is language that's not uncommon in our world, is that it's the quality and not the quantity. You know, so if you give your child a little quality time, uh, then that is somehow supposed to overcome the fact that you're gone for five days of the week. And it just doesn't, it doesn't do that. You know, children need your presence, even if it's your neutral presence. And they come over and they give you a hug, and they wander away. They come over and they ask a question, and they wander away. And they need lots of tiny little doses of positive interaction. A- and now, one of the challenges in our modern world is that we have so many isolated, single caregivers, parents, who may have multiple children who need that. And since in the modern world, we've moved away from having aunties and grandparents and neighbors playing a role in this sort of community caregiving model, uh, we've got tons of exhausted, overwhelmed caregivers who are trying to do their very best, but there's just no physical way possible that they could meet all of these needs of these children. And so I think that that's a big-- that's a burden that our society needs to address and think about how to create more relationally enriched environments to support our young parents. Because the vast majority of them would do the right things, they'd just be drawn to do the right things if they weren't exhausted, worn out, worried about housing, worried about food. You know, we, we structurally contribute to the inability of these caregivers to provide those loving environments.

Oprah Winfrey 16:48 Yeah, one of the things Dr. Perry says in the book, uh, Jay-

Speaker 16:51 Mm-hmm

Oprah Winfrey 16:51 ... is that we're the only country in the world that does this, that we're the only country that expects a single mother to be everything and all things, you know, to children.

Speaker 16:59 So true.

Oprah Winfrey 17:00 Whereas other countries where the- there is, uh, uh, number one, a greater respect for the elders and the elders' involvement in the child's development, and aunties and cousins and family members. And so when you don't have that, uh, these moms, which I feel so deeply for, moms who are trying to do it all, it's impossible to be able to do it all.

Speaker 17:26 Right. It is.

Oprah Winfrey 17:29 That's right.

Speaker 17:29 And it, and, and the thing for an infant and a child growing up, love isn't the feeling the parent has for the child. Love is an action, right? L- love is sort of n- night after night after night after night, getting up and meeting their fundamental needs when they're hungry, thirsty, cold. And, and over time, as they build in these neurobiological capabilities to mature, then you can move to more emotional variations of that equivalent of love. So now that we're adults, we can actually say, "You know what? There's somebody in my past who was present and attentive, and I love that person." And, and if you-

Oprah Winfrey 18:11 Mm-hmm

Speaker 18:11 ... if, if, you know, that's, that is love, but your ability to sort of build that much more advanced neurobiological capability emerged from thousands and thousands and thousands of repetitions of these loving, nurturing relation- relational interactions.

Oprah Winfrey 18:26 I think that's such a great point because, uh, as I grew older, and it wasn't just my grandmother whipping me, but other people, I remember getting a whipping once and having, uh, you know, one of my relatives say, "I, I, I'm whipping you because I love you." Well, it certainly didn't feel like love.

Jay Shetty 18:41 Mm-hmm.

Oprah Winfrey 18:41 Certainly didn't feel like love, but I know that for that generation, the idea of I'm going to keep you in line, and I'm going to make sure you're disciplined, and that you're gonna obey-

Jay Shetty 18:53 Yes

Oprah Winfrey 18:53 ... and do the right thing, in their minds might have felt like love, but certainly-

Jay Shetty 18:57 Right

Oprah Winfrey 18:57 ... did not feel like or was interpreted by me to mean love. I mean, I think for anybody who's listening to us or watching right now, and I know if you are culturally raised, uh, the way I was, y- you have a lot of, of pain behind those whippings. And I remember doing a show on The Oprah Show years later talking about should children be spanked, and a Black woman stood up and said, "Well, I got beat every day, and my father... I was in the choir, and my father beat me in front of the q- the whole congregation in church, and I turned out okay." And I'm like, "Did you really?" Because nobody, anybody who's ever been hit realizes the humiliation of that. What you feel more than anything, even as a little kid, is the humiliation of it. And what you-

Jay Shetty 19:45 Yeah

Oprah Winfrey 19:45 ... are being told in that moment is that you have no value, that you are worth nothing, that you are so worthless that I get now to lay my hands on you and physically beat you. So it takes a lot, and I, I would have to say that, um, it, it, it was a lot for me to overcome to begin to understand that my life was of value. And as I say in What Happened to You, what did that for me were relationships with my teachers. I could cry right now thinking about the, the teachers who stood in the gap for me and made me feel valued, made me feel important. So it was only at school or speaking in church that I felt a sense of I mattered-

Jay Shetty 20:35 Mm-hmm

Oprah Winfrey 20:35 ... that there was some meaning and, and, and, and purpose for me in life. And so, you know, as, uh, when I was talking to Bruce on 60 Minutes, I said, "Bruce, please explain to me why I'm not crazy," because [laughs] because I, you know, grew up in these circumstances where I, I should have no self-values, no self-worth. But Bruce, as he explains in What Happened to You, you don't have to have it come from your family. Other relationships with people who-

Jay Shetty 21:05 Mm-hmm

Oprah Winfrey 21:05 ... are nurturing, supporting, caring, and actually just see you. So the reason why I loved school so much is because that's the place that I felt seen.

Jay Shetty 21:16 Yeah. It makes me so happy to hear you both give people the permission to realize that they don't have to have it all figured out, and that they can't have-

Oprah Winfrey 21:27 Yeah

Jay Shetty 21:27 ... it all figured out, and that it's we're all trying to be the perfect parent, the perfect person, the perfect professional, the perfect partner. And perfection's impossible as it is, but even that striving for it, you're giving everyone the permission to realize. And also, I love that point that was just made around how this is not just what's happening at home. It can be heightened or amplified by what happens at school, or it can be nurtured and nourished and improved as well by what happens. And Oprah, one of the things you talk about in the book when

Jay Shetty 21:58 we're talking about the need for rhythm and balance, and that's what I think this book does so beautifully is what this book allowed me to do was feel vulnerably but then project that onto a framework of how to think about it. And, and I think that that is such a refreshing thing because often we're told to be vulnerable and be open, and then you, you let it all out, and then you're like, "Oh, well, this is just a mess. I don't know where to put it all." And then, you know, this book allows you to kind of go, "Okay, well, that makes sense, and this is how I place this." How did you... How do you recommend for people to find the time to create rhythms? I know you say you block out the Sunday to be with yourself and spend time walking in nature, trying not to be distracted. For anyone right now who's saying, "I, I recognize from hearing both of you that I must have some trauma," where do I f- where do I find the time to unpack it? How do I make time for that, and where do I start?

Oprah Winfrey 22:53 Well, you start with understanding that your cup being full is how you allow yourself to give to other people.

Jay Shetty 23:01 Mm-hmm.

Oprah Winfrey 23:02 You, you can't give what you don't have. You can't love if you haven't been loved. You don't even know how to begin to do that. So I think it begins with fundamentally understanding that you are worthy enough, you are valuable enough, you matter enough to give yourself the love that you deserve, and that starts by taking out time for yourself. So I have my own rhythm and pattern. I know that if I go six days and then on the seventh, by the seventh or eighth don't give myself a break, that lots of other things give.

Jay Shetty 23:36 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Oprah Winfrey 23:37 That I'm not as alert. I'm not as attuned. I'm not as centered. I'm not as focused. So I know that that is, that is my limit. I cannot go beyond a certain amount of days. And for me, um, walking in nature, uh, is my solace. It is where I feel that I am one with all, and all being, you know, all creation and, uh, you know, connected. For other people, it may be dancing. It may be music. It may be knitting. It may be whatever it is that brings some kind of rhythmic pattern into your life. Actually, it was Bruce and I were walking on my campus in South Africa, and, uh, there were a group of girls dancing literally on the lawn, 'cause Lord knows they love to dance. And Bruce says, "Oh, that's not just..." I said, "Oh, they're just having fun." And Bruce said, "Oh, they're not just having fun. They actually are healing themselves."

Jay Shetty 24:30 Mm-hmm.

Oprah Winfrey 24:31 The rhythmic pattern, that's why when you've been in an argument with someone or you're in the middle of an argument with somebody, if you just go and take a walk or you go and turn on some music and you start dancing, if you just have some form of movement, you feel better. That's number one. Number two, one of the most important things, most, most important takeaways from what happened to you, I believe, is understanding how the brain works, and that diagram that's on page 26 or 27 about the inv- inverted brain being like a triangle. So you see that beginning with the brain stem, that's the lower part of the brain, all the way to the cortex and through the limbic area, you understand that. We're looking at it right there. Um, you understand that when you're upset or in fear or angry or are in, in an antagonized state and you're trying to reason with a person, a child, your spouse, your boss, your friend, they literally cannot hear you because the reasoning part of the brain is in the cortex, and what you're saying is only reaching the brain stem. So whenever somebody is dysregulated, which is what that is, being an- anxious and fearful and yelling and screaming, the thing to do is to calm yourself first. Then you will be able to help that other person get calm and regulated. That's how you get to reason. But if you both are just yelling at each other, literally, and you're going, "You don't hear me, and you don't hear me either, and you don't hear," they actually cannot hear you. That's what I thought was so fascinating. I think I explained it well, right? Like Bruce-

Speaker 26:18 You, yes, I'm just sitting here smiling thinking- [laughs]

Jay Shetty 26:20 Do, do you concur? Dr. Perry, do you concur? I just wanna make sure because-

Oprah Winfrey 26:23 Yeah

Speaker 26:23 I do. I do. I have to.

Jay Shetty 26:24 Oprah's, Oprah's-

Speaker 26:25 This is actually a lot of fun

Jay Shetty 26:27 [laughs]

Oprah Winfrey 26:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 26:28 Oprah's just become a neuroscientist, so we're going to expect-

Oprah Winfrey 26:31 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 26:32 We're gonna expect you to now tell a story-

Oprah Winfrey 26:34 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 26:35 Uh, to, to trade, to trade pla- to trade places. Uh, but, you know, I, I'm so, it's so amazing to hear you explain that, and that's exactly what I meant by giving a framework to really look at it in such a clear way, uh, in a way that we're often not encouraged to see it because it sounds too difficult or too complicated. But to, to simplify that idea is that here's what you think's going on, and here's what's happening inside your brain. And Dr. Perry, when you, when you dive into the science, you quote

Jay Shetty 27:05 a study and a survey that said that almost 50% of children in the United States have had at least one significant traumatic experience. Uh, but a lot of people will still deny h- ever having experienced trauma. A lot of people will feel uncomfortable admitting and accepting that they have experienced some trauma. What are some of our misconceptions around what trauma is and how it affects us? And would you mind explaining what sort of experiences are defined as traumatic to help us-

Speaker 27:36 Sure

Jay Shetty 27:36 ... expand our definition?

Speaker 27:37 [clears throat] So most of us first heard the concept of sort of trauma as, as we're talking about it now in context of post-traumatic stress disorder and combat veterans. And so even within our field, in psychiatry, the majority of people who studied, uh, trauma and looked at trauma were looking at the effects of these horrific events, exposure to combat, death of a, a, a, of a s- soldier next to you as, you know, the, the thing to understand around trauma. But over time, the people like me who were studying the stress response systems in, in animal models were very, uh, uh, well aware that it's not necessarily these big traumatic events that, uh, are easily identified by everybody as a trauma that will lead to the changes in the brain that cause the problems. And so certainly if you do have these events, that can be a problem. So natural disaster, house fire, car accident, you know, s- abuse of all sorts, th- that's certainly traumatic. But probably the most important thing, and, and I think the thing that's impacting more children and adults than anything else are experiences that are patterns of stress activation where you have no control over the experience, it- it's not predictable, and it's prolonged. It's ongoing. And I think in, to some degree, the experiences of the last year, uh, are, uh, an example for many people of a prolonged set of uncontrollable and unpredictable stressors, and we've all felt sort of our baseline level of tolerance is going down. We're a little bit more tired. We can handle situations a little bit less. And so what we've been studying is the combination of these experiences where you are not in control of your life. Uh, and it may be a child who's living in a domestic violence environment where he or she is not the direct target of all of this stuff, but there's so much unpredictability about when the fighting is gonna happen, and there's so much unpredictability about whether mom is gonna be in a good mood today or a bad mood, or dad's gonna be angry or not angry, and that can lead to these physiological changes that increase your risk for physical health problems, mental health problems, and learning problems. And so that's kind of where we're moving in the field is this recognition that you don't just ha- have to have some sort of capital T trauma in your life to be impacted by trauma. And in fact, if you are a minority in a majority culture, you're gonna get all kinds of experiences where you're getting these relational interactions that are not, are sending the signal that you don't belong- Which will activate your stress response, which can, over time, accumulate and influence your physical and mental health.

Jay Shetty 30:48 Yeah, thank you, Dr. Perry, for, for, you know, illuminating on that point because I think for so many of us, as you rightly just said there, we feel that trauma only means trauma with a capital T. And so we often disregard, we often let these things just fade away and, you know, put them under the carpet and just, just not, not really give them enough emphasis and focus because we don't-

Speaker 31:10 Right

Jay Shetty 31:10 ... see them as being significant. And so, yes, Oprah.

Oprah Winfrey 31:15 I wanted to say that one of the, one of the most important points I think Dr. Perry makes in What Happened to You is that neglect is as toxic as trauma. And so even though you might not have had a trauma with a big T-

Jay Shetty 31:34 Mm

Oprah Winfrey 31:34 ... that the, it boils down to did you get what you needed? And I have done so many interviews, as I know you have, too, Jay, with people who are raised in the same family, and everybody in that family has a different experience. And sometimes siblings are arguing about a thing that happened because from their point of view it felt like one thing, and from the other person's point of view it felt like another thing. Well, that is the reality of life, that you can have two children, four children, six children raised in the same household, and they experience the love of their parents differently. And not all the kids could have gotten what they needed, and some of the kids got what they needed. So neglect is you not getting what you needed for your worldview, for your personal, um, approach to life, your sense of self v- values, your s- your sense of self-esteem. And so I, I, I, I have seen in the thousands of interviews that I've done over the years that the level of dysfunction in a per- person's life is almost directionally, directionally, pr- directly proportional to how they were loved, what happened to them, and how they were able to receive or not receive that love. So i- the, the, the what happened to you isn't, you know, just for people who had the big T traumas, but it literally is what happened to you? Were you loved? Were you not? How were you loved?

Oprah Winfrey 33:05 How was that love applied in your life, and were you able then to apply it in the rest of the world? So I know many people are listening who didn't get what they needed, and I say this to my girls in South Africa all the time because so many of them were born during the year of, uh, uh, during the decade where so many of their parents died of AIDS. And they have this sense of abandonment, literally going from one family to the next family member and then that family member dying and that family member dying. And when you grow up feeling abandoned, and certainly abandoned from an early age, y- you h- your worldview is that people are going to abandon you in their relationships. And so you either go into those relationships being very needy and afraid that this person's gonna leave me, or you go into those relationships being very jealous and, you know, uh, holding on and having to know where you've been and looking at people's cell phones and all of that because you're afraid that you're gonna leave me. And so what happened to you, no matter who you are, is important in understanding why you have the worldview that you do.

Jay Shetty 34:18 I was sharing and making a lot of videos, and I started committing more to creating more amazing content that I loved and enjoyed, and we made some amazing videos last year. And the number one thing I used to hear from everyone else, and this wasn't the voice in my head, this was the voice of the noise of outside, was, "Jay, when are you gonna get, like, media? Like, when, when is, like, someone, you know, when is media gonna take notice of you? Like, when is this gonna be-" And it was so interesting because that last point you made of it was patience-

Speaker 34:44 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:44 ... that had to be practiced.

Speaker 34:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 34:46 And for me, it was not like, oh my God, that's gonna... And I was like, that's interesting because people are saying that that's when they'll accept that this is successful.

Speaker 34:55 Right. Interesting.

Jay Shetty 34:56 And I had to make a choice-

Speaker 34:57 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:58 ... whether I was gonna let that definition define that I felt-

Speaker 35:00 Yeah

Jay Shetty 35:00 ... successful. Now or do I feel successful now because I'm doing what I love every day-

Speaker 35:04 Yeah

Jay Shetty 35:04 ... and I really enjoy it-

Speaker 35:05 Yeah

Jay Shetty 35:05 ... and it's helping people.

Speaker 35:06 Beautiful, yeah.

Jay Shetty 35:07 And, and I think that that was such a distinct thing for me because... And then when I let go of that and had that patience, then this year a lot of that came.

Speaker 35:14 Then you're on Ellen, you know? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 35:15 Correct. And a lot of that came totally organically. None of it was maneuvered or-

Speaker 35:18 Because you didn't care, you weren't trying, you were having fun.

Jay Shetty 35:20 Exactly.

Speaker 35:20 And you are a prime example of what it means to be a super attractor. You're in joy, you're having fun, you're not attached to the outcome. That's how your entire career began.

Jay Shetty 35:29 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 35:29 I'm not attached to the outcome, and I'm just gonna do something in the, in, in service, in love, and inspiration, and it's gonna become this thing.

Jay Shetty 35:36 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 35:36 And that's how I've built my career, too.

Jay Shetty 35:38 Yeah. And what about when... So I love what you... You gave a great example there of how people are scared to, you know, like, you don't want people to pick up the phone call in that fear. You want them to do it in that joy and service.

Speaker 35:46 Mm. Mm.

Jay Shetty 35:47 How do people make that switch from fear to joy in service? If someone's honest with themselves and they say, "Gabby, right now I'm just scared. Like, I'm just living in-"

Speaker 35:55 Sometimes I would tell someone, like, sometimes you just have to pick up the phone and ask for the job because it's, this is the window you have.

Jay Shetty 36:00 Sure.

Speaker 36:01 So I would, you know, say meditate before and say prayers before and turn it over and-

Jay Shetty 36:05 Prepare

Speaker 36:05 ... prepare energetically to the best of your ability. And then also think about, this is a big one, like, think about how that desire is backed with service and love. Because as soon as you get into that energy, you feel good, and it's no longer about what you think you need. It's about bringing something greater to the world. And so when I would want something big in my life, whether it was a media placement or a baby or anything, I was always, if I felt like I was strangling the desire, I would always return to why this was going to bring light to the world.

Jay Shetty 36:35 Mm.

Speaker 36:37 I mean, that's where... And that's where the moment you s- you go there, you feel better.

Jay Shetty 36:40 Yeah.

Speaker 36:41 And that's the act- that you wanna take place from that place of action.

Jay Shetty 36:44 100%. I am, I'm so happy that you're saying this right now-

Speaker 36:47 Yeah

Jay Shetty 36:47 ... because I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 36:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:48 That's the only thing that keeps me going-

Speaker 36:50 Yeah

Jay Shetty 36:50 ... makes you wake up in the morning.

Speaker 36:51 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:52 I say to people all the time, like, I believe there are, there are service d- driven creators, entrepreneurs, business people, whatever, the list goes on, and then there are lifestyle business people, entrepreneurs, et cetera.

Speaker 37:02 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 37:02 Lifestyle people are the ones that do it because they want to-

Speaker 37:05 Mm

Jay Shetty 37:05 ... live on a beach and have a comfy life. And then the service ones are the ones who are just gonna keep doing it. I mean, you're on your seventh book right now.

Speaker 37:11 I'll be writing books the rest of my life.

Jay Shetty 37:12 Yeah, [laughs] exactly, and if that isn't service, I don't know what is.

Speaker 37:14 And I'm writing a new one right now.

Jay Shetty 37:15 No, w- don't, I mean, [laughs] let's, let's, let's focus on this one.

Speaker 37:19 I'd say we gotta focus on this one.

Jay Shetty 37:20 Yeah.

Speaker 37:20 But I do have a contract. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 37:21 [laughs] Yeah.

Speaker 37:22 But-

Jay Shetty 37:23 Oh, I didn't realize you were... Okay, fine.

Speaker 37:24 I'm working on, I'm working on an Audible original.

Jay Shetty 37:27 Okay.

Speaker 37:27 Yeah, yeah, and it's called-

Jay Shetty 37:29 Is it fiction or nonfiction?

Speaker 37:30 Um, of course it's nonfiction.

Jay Shetty 37:31 Okay. Okay, I'm just checking.

Speaker 37:31 Um, but yeah. No, it's a-

Jay Shetty 37:33 Yeah

Speaker 37:33 ... yeah, it's sort of an audio experience.

Jay Shetty 37:35 Sure.

Speaker 37:35 But it is nonfiction, self-help.

Jay Shetty 37:36 Right.

Speaker 37:37 Yeah, personal growth.

Jay Shetty 37:37 Oh, cool. I'm excited for that.

Speaker 37:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 37:39 So it's totally o- it's only Audible?

Speaker 37:40 Starting off as only Audible, and then I can, in a year from then, turn it into a book if I want to, but.

Jay Shetty 37:45 That sounds fun.

Speaker 37:45 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 37:46 I love that.

Speaker 37:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 37:47 That's awesome. Uh, tell me about, you've said that you're no longer in that hustle mode, but you have been before.

Speaker 37:53 Oh, yeah, I was.

Jay Shetty 37:54 So, so, yeah, so interesting-

Speaker 37:55 I'm newly not there.

Jay Shetty 37:56 Right.

Speaker 37:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 37:57 So was that, were you still being a super attractor then?

Speaker 38:02 Yes and no.

Jay Shetty 38:02 Or was that blocking your-

Speaker 38:03 Yes and no. Like, it was murky, right?

Jay Shetty 38:06 Right.

Speaker 38:07 Because I was attracting a lot, but I was probably really limiting my capacity. And so it's like, you know, um, we, we often, you know, don't realize that, like, we are, w- we are functioning at a fraction of what we're capable of.

Jay Shetty 38:19 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 38:20 And so I definitely was. Like, even though I was hustling, and I was having fun, and I was in service, and I was enjoying, things were happening. You know, books were coming out. They were, they were hav- you know, helping people, saving lives, right?

Jay Shetty 38:30 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 38:30 But I, but I was definitely blocking the full capacity of what I could be creating and giving because I was, I was hustling. I was a work addict, you know, for many big reasons, right? You know, I've talked very publicly about, you know, didn't realize that I had had trauma until I remembered it in 2016. And it was when I remembered my trauma that I started to truly heal my addictive patterns.

Jay Shetty 38:52 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 38:52 You know, it was like I got sober 14 years ago, and then-

Jay Shetty 38:54 Yeah, that's amazing, by the way.

Speaker 38:55 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 38:55 Congratulations. Yeah, s-

Speaker 38:57 And then I, you know, and then I, and then I became a work addict. And, and I always felt like, oh, my work is in the pursuit of something so magical and so great and such great service that it's okay to be a work addict. Hell, no.

Jay Shetty 39:06 Mm.

Speaker 39:06 Hell, no. It took me down. But then I remembered my trauma, and then in the recovery from r- really healing my trauma past and really working really through it and becoming more and more free and more free today than I've ever been, in that journey, I, I started to see that, that the, that the pushing and the controlling was the, the, and the opposite of who I believed I wanted to be.

Jay Shetty 39:28 Mm.

Speaker 39:28 And so at that point, I, I really just started to accept that I didn't ha- I could have a no stress policy, and that I could do less and attract more. I could begin to rely on other people. And because look, you know, I could have been in the same position, right? Having a team, having publishers that were supporting me, all that, and still not letting go.

Jay Shetty 39:48 Mm.

Speaker 39:48 I could have still been fully in control trying to hold everything even with those resources. So it doesn't matter, like, what you have. It's about your mental choice.

Jay Shetty 39:56 Mm.

Speaker 39:56 And so in that choice, I said, "You know, I'm gonna focus on my art. I'm gonna focus on my gift, and I'm gonna allow the universe to support me-

Jay Shetty 40:03 Mm

Speaker 40:03 ... and work through people. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna give it over."

Jay Shetty 40:07 Yeah.

Speaker 40:08 And so I'm relaxed.

Jay Shetty 40:09 [laughs] I love that. Would, would you say in that, that early phase, the hustle was critical? And would you say for others it is as well?

Speaker 40:16 I wouldn't change it.

Jay Shetty 40:17 Right. Yeah.

Speaker 40:18 But had I been aware of my trauma be- m- you know, or had I not had trauma behind it, I could have had the hustle without so much pain.

Jay Shetty 40:27 Mm.

Speaker 40:28 There was a lot of pain and suffering in that hustle-

Jay Shetty 40:31 Right

Speaker 40:31 ... that I wasn't able to recognize at the time because I felt so proud and so excited about what I was doing. I wasn't able to recognize I was in a tremendous amount of pain.

Jay Shetty 40:39 Mm. So yeah. So, so s- if someone's listening and they're thinking, "Well, Gabby, I'm really working hard right now-"

Speaker 40:46 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 40:46 ... you'd say as long as you're dealing with that trauma that's there or you're reflecting on-

Speaker 40:51 Well-

Jay Shetty 40:51 ... where it's coming from-

Speaker 40:52 ... if you're working really hard and it's because you're trying to prove yourself because you have a wound that you haven't healed, then go h- go heal the wound-

Jay Shetty 41:00 Got it

Speaker 41:01 ... because everything will follow.

Jay Shetty 41:02 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 41:03 If you're working really hard because you think you need to get ahead or whatever, there's probably a wound there.

Jay Shetty 41:08 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 41:08 Right?

Jay Shetty 41:08 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 41:09 Um, and a belief system that, like, if I'm not pushing and controlling, it's not gonna happen. And so, you know, I think that the thing I would tell my younger self is that, uh, you know, trust more. And, no, I actually don't think I would tell my younger self anything because I think everything worked out exactly as it was meant to.

Jay Shetty 41:30 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I read somewhere recently that a lot of successful people in general, whether spiritual or not, have to have the belief that everything happened at the right time or everything happens for a reason. And when I read that, I thought, interesting, because so many people see that as a cliché.

Speaker 41:46 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 41:46 So many people see it as a throwaway.

Speaker 41:47 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 41:48 But when I read that actually both spiritual and non-spiritual-

Speaker 41:51 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 41:51 ... successful people would-

Speaker 41:52 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 41:52 ... say that that's how they see things, because you're now looking at life as life is taking care of me.

Speaker 41:58 Totally.

Jay Shetty 41:58 You're now looking at life is teaching me when I need to. Life is keeping me where I am, where I need to be.

Speaker 42:04 Seeing the difficult moments as opportunities that are revealing to you what you still need to heal.

Jay Shetty 42:09 Mm.

Speaker 42:10 And so when you, when you flip your perspective of the difficult times and choose to see those difficult times as, as spiritual assignments to, to grow, to be, to be closer to your source, to inspiration, love, joy, then it, it turns, it turns into a miracle. You know, I just, um, I'm five months into recovery from postpartum depression and anxiety-

Jay Shetty 42:31 Yeah

Speaker 42:31 ... and insomnia, which was, Jay, the most, the, the m- I'm gonna say the F word, but the most fucked up experience of my life.

Jay Shetty 42:37 Wow.

Speaker 42:38 And, uh, right now I'm really feeling great. And I'm feeling really proud and really grateful that that happened because I can help save women's lives as a result of being able to talk about it with authenticity.

Jay Shetty 42:50 Mm.

Speaker 42:50 I can help be a better voice for mental illness because I've experienced it. I can be a guide for people who need medical s- support when they really need it.

Jay Shetty 42:59 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 43:00 And I wouldn't change a thing.

Jay Shetty 43:01 Absolutely, and thank you for sharing that again-

Speaker 43:03 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 43:03 ... and, and talking so openly about it.

Speaker 43:04 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 43:04 I, I think that's ultimately, like, the underline to any major... 'Cause we were talking about Viktor Frankl, obviously. In Man's Search for Meaning, he talks about it so beautifully of just, like, how he couldn't make that situation good-

Speaker 43:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 43:16 ... but he knew that if he dealt with it in the right way-

Speaker 43:18 Yeah

Jay Shetty 43:18 ... that that would then teach people in the future.

Speaker 43:20 That's right.

Jay Shetty 43:20 And, and I think that that's such a great... It's always the underline to any pain-

Speaker 43:25 Yeah, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 43:26 ... because you're right that in that moment you couldn't be just happy and, and all of a sudden-

Speaker 43:30 No, no

Jay Shetty 43:31 ... or like just burst out into, like-

Speaker 43:32 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 43:32 ... laughter. But you know that that experience has now given you a whole new group of people to serve and share and-

Speaker 43:39 Totally

Jay Shetty 43:40 ... forward.

Speaker 43:40 Totally.

Jay Shetty 43:41 And I think all of us who, anyone who's listening right now or watching right now and going through any sort of pain, I genuinely think that's the underlying point. If you can't find any other answer-

Speaker 43:50 Mm

Jay Shetty 43:50 ... that probably is it.

Speaker 43:52 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 43:52 That you're, you're being sent a particular gift-

Speaker 43:55 Yeah

Jay Shetty 43:55 ... that you will then be able to open-

Speaker 43:56 Yeah

Jay Shetty 43:56 ... for other people.

Speaker 43:57 Yeah, I really hope that, that, that people can take that in. And you know, I write in the book that the, the key to feeling good is to decide to stop feeling bad.

Jay Shetty 44:05 Mm.

Speaker 44:05 And that could be really offensive to certain people out there that are depressed, or broke, or, you know, ill, or, you know, whatever it may be. But I, I tell the story of my postpartum as a true, honest, authentic example of how when I was in the most, the darkest moment of my life, suicidal, suicidal-

Jay Shetty 44:22 Mm

Speaker 44:22 ... that I could still decide to feel good in the most subtle ways. So, like, allowing myself to accept support was a way of allowing myself to feel good, right?

Jay Shetty 44:34 Mm.

Speaker 44:34 Or deciding to feel good. Uh, being open to a medical path that I never would've contemplated being on was a decision to feel good, right? So it's, um, there was a lot of that decision ma- that, that decision-making in that dark, low moment.

Jay Shetty 44:51 Mm.

Speaker 44:52 So if somebody is in a critical moment right now listening to this, the fact that they're listening was a decision to feel good.

Jay Shetty 44:58 Mm. Absolutely. Yeah, 100%. How do you, how do you take that almost like the crazy high and low of, like, you know, you've, you've waited, you've thought about it, you super attracted a beautiful baby, and then you go through depression afterwards.

Speaker 45:15 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 45:16 And it's like how do you go through that in your mind from the point of view of, like, the, the extreme high of waiting for this-

Speaker 45:23 Mm

Jay Shetty 45:23 ... being patient for it.

Speaker 45:25 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 45:25 It's amazing, and then the next thing you know-

Speaker 45:27 Mm

Jay Shetty 45:27 ... you're at one of the lowest points. Like, how, how do you mentally even just g- rally around that?

Speaker 45:32 I think that my faith is what got me through because I knew I was being guided even if I felt at the darkest time.

Jay Shetty 45:38 Mm.

Speaker 45:39 I knew that I was being guided. And when I started to really surrender was when the guidance could really come through. And now, in recovery, I am actually quite grateful for it because I have s- like an even greater appreciation for my son than I probably would have had I not been through it.

Jay Shetty 45:55 Mm.

Speaker 45:56 Because every moment that I have with him, I'm just, like, relishing in it because, because when I wasn't in that space, and I couldn't recognize him, and I was scared of him, I, I now know the, the... I, I can celebrate the great joy of not being there.

Jay Shetty 46:14 Mm. Yeah. It's just... It, it fascinates me because whenever I'm listening to you, and, uh, even in the book, it's like faith comes out so strongly.

Speaker 46:22 Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jay Shetty 46:22 And I think that's ultimately where so many people feel so challenged by because they're like, "What do I have faith in?"

Speaker 46:30 Right. Well, that's what-

Jay Shetty 46:30 And, and that's-

Speaker 46:31 That's what all my books are about-

Jay Shetty 46:32 Yeah, I know, I know, yeah

Speaker 46:33 ... is like my, all my books are really about helping people decide what they have faith in-

Jay Shetty 46:37 Correct

Speaker 46:37 ... and giving them an opportunity to crack open to a higher power-

Jay Shetty 46:41 Mm-hmm

Speaker 46:42 ... of their own understanding, as they say in the 12 steps. A higher power of your own understanding.

Jay Shetty 46:46 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 46:46 And you know, that language is, is very free.

Jay Shetty 46:49 Correct.

Speaker 46:49 There's a lot of freedom in that language because anyone that's listening, I don't, I don't care if they call it God, I don't care if they call it universe. I don't even care if they just call it inspiration.

Jay Shetty 46:58 Mm.

Speaker 46:59 You know, inspiration... Someone may be like, "I don't think there's something outside of me, but I know that I can receive inspiration-

Jay Shetty 47:04 Mm

Speaker 47:04 ... and when I follow these steps I'll feel that inspiration and that intuition." That's perfect.

Jay Shetty 47:09 Yeah. So your approach is very-

Speaker 47:10 And so when you start-

Jay Shetty 47:11 ... for me

Speaker 47:11 ... to have faith in that inspiration-

Jay Shetty 47:13 Mm-hmm

Speaker 47:13 ... then life gets easier.

Jay Shetty 47:15 Yeah. And I think that's what it is, and I love that you've just said that, that that's what your books are about. I think ultimately life is a path of us figuring out what we have faith in because you're gonna have to have faith.

Speaker 47:26 Mm.

Jay Shetty 47:26 Right? Whether it's-

Speaker 47:27 Well, I think a lot of people walk around... Sorry to interrupt you, but they walk around-

Jay Shetty 47:30 Yeah, no, no problem

Speaker 47:30 ... thinking that they, that their, their faith relies in their own will.

Jay Shetty 47:34 Mm.

Speaker 47:34 And that's where they get into a lot of trouble-

Jay Shetty 47:36 Mm

Speaker 47:36 ... right? Uh, really, really s- be learning to live in a way where we are no longer, "It's not my way or the highway," and we are starting to have this trust that we can turn things over, and we can lean into a better feeling, and then be guided.

Jay Shetty 47:52 Yeah.

Speaker 47:53 Then, then life gets really groovy. I mean, just over the last few days it's like at one point I was just feeling, like, a little beat up 'cause I've been [laughs] like running and moving, and I'm here traveling with my family.

Jay Shetty 48:03 Mm.

Speaker 48:04 And I was just feeling it. And then I just said to my... I s- said, I s- I prayed and I said, "Thank you, Spirit, and, you know, energy of the highest good for, for, for giving me strength and giving me energy to get through all these beautiful opportunities, and to show up for them with joy, and-

Jay Shetty 48:19 Mm

Speaker 48:20 ... and, and service, and, and not, you know, not being overtired and beaten down."

Jay Shetty 48:25 Yeah.

Speaker 48:25 And w- as soon as I said that prayer, I j- I mean, energy just started to move through me.

Jay Shetty 48:29 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Speaker 48:30 And even though I'm tired, I'm super pumped to be here, and I'm super pumped to go to the next thing, and you know?

Jay Shetty 48:36 Yeah.

Speaker 48:37 So... And it's easy to say when you're doing awesome things like this, but-

Jay Shetty 48:40 No, I get it

Speaker 48:40 ... but it, I needed that strength.

Jay Shetty 48:42 Yeah.

Speaker 48:42 And so I think that once we start to have that relationship with our higher power, we can stop trying to control things and we can give them away.

Jay Shetty 48:49 Yeah. And, and I think... I mean, when, when you were saying that, it's unfortunate that I'm only thinking of a fiction movie, but I think it's an important reference. Uh, have you seen Doctor Strange?

Speaker 48:57 No.

Jay Shetty 48:58 Okay. So Doctor Strange is awesome. You would love it.

Speaker 49:00 Okay.

Jay Shetty 49:01 And, and the great th- I'm gonna give away the whole movie now, so- Maybe you should... Okay, spoilers. I have to-

Speaker 49:06 Okay, okay

Jay Shetty 49:06 ... I have to, I have to.

Speaker 49:07 Go, go, go.

Jay Shetty 49:08 The, the amazing thing about the movie is it's based on a doctor who's highly reputed, who really understands his craft, and his fate is in his hands-

Speaker 49:17 Yeah

Jay Shetty 49:17 ... and his ability-

Speaker 49:18 Yeah

Jay Shetty 49:18 ... to heal people-

Speaker 49:20 Yeah

Jay Shetty 49:20 ... as in surgically heal people, not, not spiritually heal people. And what ends up happening is he has an accident which takes away his physical ability to have the stability in his hands to perform any surgical-

Speaker 49:33 Yeah

Jay Shetty 49:33 ... procedure-

Speaker 49:33 Yeah

Jay Shetty 49:34 ... that he then turns to alternative paths.

Speaker 49:36 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 49:36 Now, it's a fiction story, but I'm sh- And I would love to hear if you know anyone who's had a similar story. We hear about so many stories like that, or meet, I meet so many people like that who were billionaires initially and valued everything they had in their money, and then they lost that money, and then that changed them.

Speaker 49:51 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 49:51 Or someone who had value in one of their physical attributes, whether it was their beauty or their strength, and then that was taken away from them, but then they found it somewhere else.

Speaker 49:59 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 49:59 And I think that's what I find so incredibly telling of what you're saying right now is the best example of it, is that you find that, that when your faith is simply in your physical self, it's just consistently broken, right?

Speaker 50:13 It's called body identification.

Jay Shetty 50:14 Yes.

Speaker 50:15 And when you're stuck in that body identification, you've disconnected from your spirit self-

Jay Shetty 50:19 Mm-hmm

Speaker 50:19 ... the spirit identification. I have a whole chapter in the book called Lift the Veil.

Jay Shetty 50:23 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 50:23 It's my favorite chapter in the book.

Jay Shetty 50:24 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 50:25 And I really pushed the metaphysical envelope there. And, and it's, and it's really, really talking about how we, we, when we're in that body identification, you know, my, I am, you know, this person, and I am this author, or I am this do- this business owner or doctor, whatever, we're actually blocking our greatest source of power.

Jay Shetty 50:44 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 50:45 And so when we start to y- you know, use our bodies as a vessel through which we let spirit work through us, that might sound really heady for people, but I can b- I can unpack it.

Jay Shetty 50:54 Yeah, do it. Unpack it.

Speaker 50:55 Yeah. I think that when we start to recognize that it's, it's n- How can I make this not too heady? [laughs] When we start to recognize that when we are attuned with the feeling of inspiration, I keep coming back to inspiration to use as the demyst-

Jay Shetty 51:13 Sure

Speaker 51:13 ... demystifying word, because I would, I would call it spirit-

Jay Shetty 51:15 Mm-hmm

Speaker 51:15 ... but inspiration's the same thing.

Jay Shetty 51:17 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 51:17 When we allow ourselves to be really in t- attuned with this inspiration, we actually, as we said before, can expand time. The, the, the, the beautiful message that you give to your child comes through you when you stop thinking about what you're supposed to be saying and you allow what needs to come through. And so we're no longer in the body in the pretense of what we think we should be doing, and we're actually in our spirit self using the body as a vehicle through which we express truth.

Jay Shetty 51:40 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 51:40 And so, uh, when we can make that adjustment, you know, you're unstoppable.

Jay Shetty 51:46 Yeah. And that requires a set of daily practices-

Speaker 51:51 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 51:51 ... and, like, commitments because I feel like getting to that point of even being able to let something work through you takes time, right? Like, it takes your-

Speaker 51:59 Mm, mm, mm, mm, mm.

Jay Shetty 52:00 It's not something that happens... It's not something you can turn on and turn off instantly. It-

Speaker 52:04 It, it, you're possi- It's possible for someone-

Jay Shetty 52:06 Okay

Speaker 52:06 ... to turn it on and, and, and have that quantum shift, but-

Jay Shetty 52:09 Okay

Speaker 52:09 ... but most people-

Jay Shetty 52:10 Mm

Speaker 52:10 ... I think they have to... We've spent, they've spent 30, you know, 40, 50, 60, 70 years, even 10 years, uh, detouring into fear, as A Course in Miracles would say.

Jay Shetty 52:20 Yeah.

Speaker 52:20 The course calls it the descent from magnitude into littleness, right?

Jay Shetty 52:23 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 52:23 So going down that fear-based path, repurposing it, replaying it, recycling it, making... You know, creating more and more of it and really believing in it-

Jay Shetty 52:31 Mm

Speaker 52:31 ... that, you know, the years that you spend in that, that detour into fear, it's gonna take a little while to unpack that a- and undo that.

Jay Shetty 52:37 Mm.

Speaker 52:37 But it doesn't me- need to take as, as much time as it took to get there, right?

Jay Shetty 52:41 Right. Right, right, right.

Speaker 52:41 Uh, so that's where a spiritual path comes in. That's where even a personal growth path. You know, just listening to you and just following this podcast is a part of the p- process of unpacking and undoing the ego. Uh, so, you know, it's, it's, doesn't have to be a painful journey. That's the other thing-

Jay Shetty 52:57 Mm

Speaker 52:57 ... is people don't... You know, people think, "Oh, it's, you know, spirituality is such a, so much work." Well, you know, have fun along the way.

Jay Shetty 53:03 Mm.

Speaker 53:04 Enjoy it. Even if you're having tough experiences, celebrate the miracle moments.

Jay Shetty 53:08 Yeah. I always find that it's, it's, w- in hindsight, it's always the process that you fall in love with. Like, it's almost like... And, and it is in hindsight, but you have to start using that hindsight to do it in foresight.

Speaker 53:20 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 53:20 It's almost like-

Speaker 53:21 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 53:21 ... before I used to look back at things that I solved, and I was like, "Oh, it was so fun trying to figure it out."

Speaker 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 53:26 And so now I'm like, "Okay, let me just have fun figuring it out."

Speaker 53:28 That's right.

Jay Shetty 53:29 Right? Does that make sense?

Speaker 53:30 That's right.

Jay Shetty 53:30 Yeah?

Speaker 53:30 Yeah, and I can look back. You know, I said, like, all these years I'd been suffering.

Jay Shetty 53:33 Yeah.

Speaker 53:33 But I can look back and be like, "I had a lot of fun."

Jay Shetty 53:35 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 53:36 You know, I was suffering. I was going through stuff. I wasn't aware of what I was needing to heal. I was trying to heal. I was, you know, having anxiety, whatever it was. But I was in the pursuit of feeling good.

Jay Shetty 53:45 Mm.

Speaker 53:46 And so that commitment continued to guide me to feeling m- more and more health and wellbeing.

Jay Shetty 53:51 Mm-hmm. W- If everyone's listening right now, and they're like, "Gabby, I'm ready. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna get this book because I think I, I need to..." I, because what I think you're doing, and I, and I love that you do this, and I said this to my team before you came. It's like I really think you're spiritually challenging people today.

Speaker 54:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 54:08 Uh, and I think that's a good thing. I think we need that-

Speaker 54:10 Yeah

Jay Shetty 54:11 ... because it's easy to sit on the side of just, you know, just the, the visible.

Speaker 54:17 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 54:17 And you're really pushing people into the invisible, and every time I speak to you or I read your work or I think about what you do for the world, I really think that's what you do.

Speaker 54:25 Mm.

Jay Shetty 54:26 I think that's your superpower. I think you're, you're really good at challenging and pushing-

Speaker 54:29 Mm

Jay Shetty 54:29 ... enough to provoke people but not enough-

Speaker 54:32 Mm

Jay Shetty 54:32 ... not too much where people are like, "Oh, my God, that's just... I don't even know what she's talking about."

Speaker 54:36 To wake them up, yeah.

Jay Shetty 54:37 W- yeah, which we've talked about before, like, to, to awaken people. If someone's like J- uh, uh, "Gabby, I'm going to buy the book today. I'm gonna read the book. I'm gonna start making a commitment," how can they get the most out of this book? How should they read it? How should they approach it? How should-

Speaker 54:48 Mm

Jay Shetty 54:48 ... what should they be thinking of?

Speaker 54:50 Hm, good question.

Jay Shetty 54:51 Mm.

Speaker 54:52 Um, I would say just be open and willing to see things differently-

Jay Shetty 54:57 Mm-hmm

Speaker 54:57 ... and take what works and resonates and don't, don't take what doesn't.

Jay Shetty 55:02 Okay.

Speaker 55:03 Because if it doesn't resonate, then you're gonna, you have another should. You know-

Jay Shetty 55:06 Mm

Speaker 55:06 ... "I should be thinking like that." And the other thing that also happens with books for me often is something will resonate the first read, and then three years later I'll read it and it's like a whole new book.

Jay Shetty 55:15 Yes.

Speaker 55:15 You know?

Jay Shetty 55:15 Yes, yes.

Speaker 55:16 So trust that.

Jay Shetty 55:17 Yeah.

Speaker 55:17 Just let yourself be cool with that.

Jay Shetty 55:18 Yeah.

Speaker 55:19 And don't, don't judge your process. And I always say to people, like, "If you take one lesson from this book, your life will change."

Jay Shetty 55:26 My mission on social media is making wisdom go viral.

Speaker 55:28 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 55:28 So it's like how do you take this wisdom that's, like, hidden away, it was only for the elite, or it was only for people who went and had these crazy experiences and adventures, how do we take that and spread it to everyone so that that average kid in London where I grew up or the average kid in New York City where we are right now can come across it and find it too? They don't need to go read a book right now. They don't need to go and travel halfway across the world to find it. And so with that, how did you start? 'Cause you talk about how at 40 you had a spiritual awakening. How did you get to a point where you started to confront the fact that there were beliefs, pain, trauma from your past that you'd never faced before? And that's what's clouding and blocking so many people today. Our mental health or our mental wealth-

Speaker 56:09 Mm

Jay Shetty 56:09 ... is lost because we're clouded by all this pain from the past, challenges we never looked at. How did you start to confront that, and where can people start too?

Speaker 56:17 Man, that's, for me, you know, I started unpacking a lot of that in therapy.

Jay Shetty 56:22 Mm.

Speaker 56:22 You know, I always say that when it comes to therapy, you know, therapy is like having a real junky closet.

Jay Shetty 56:27 Mm.

Speaker 56:28 So you got just a messy closet everywhere, so you start to pack up the things that you don't need and things that don't serve you anymore, and you, you get rid of that. Then the things you wanna keep, you hang up nice and neat, and then you got room to bring new stuff in. But, you know, to, to get to that point, it was just me not only asking myself a whole lot of questions, having conversations with other people, you know? It's so funny, man, I got, like, friends who used to tell me that they thought I was a sociopath 'cause I didn't really show any emotions or it didn't seem like anything ever got to me, you know, or I didn't have empathy for other people. And some of that could've been true, but, you know, I just think that all of us are just so selfish, so we're all just stuck in our own world. And I mean, I'm sure you can attest to the fact that when you really on your grind and you trying to get it, like, you not thinking about nobody else. Like, when it, when I was thinking about everybody else early on in my career, it was like I had a bunch of stuff weighing me down, you know? And it's like, yo, you can't take everybody with you until you get to where you're supposed to go. So I remember telling my homeboy DJ Frosty when I first got the job at The Breakfast Club, I said, "You know what I'm gonna do, man, this time around? Something I've never done before. I'm gonna be completely selfish." I said, "I'm gonna focus on me and only me, and then when I f- get to where I feel like I, I need to be, I'm gonna, you know, start, start bringing everybody else along." So for me, when I started just having conversations with other people, right? Stopped being selfish, like, actually started listening. 'Cause y- that's one thing social media did do, it, it woke a lot of people up 'cause, you know, just our language. Like, you would say little things, right? I remember one time I got on, on Twitter and I said something about females. Like, I was like, "Yo, females whatever, whatever." And it was just like all these comments, "You don't call women females." And I'm like, "What the, what the fuck? Since, since when don't we call women females?" But that's just, you know, new language, new information, and instead of ... At first I dismissed it, like, man, I don't wanna hear that. But then after a while I had to just stop and say, "Okay, well let me see why-

Jay Shetty 58:21 Mm-hmm

Speaker 58:22 ... they don't wanna be called female." So they broke it down to me why they don't wanna be called females. I even ... You know, conversations with, with Black women, you know what I'm saying? Like, Black w- we, we tend to take for granted, you know, Black women, you know? Like, I never n- I did, I, I, and I told my, uh, I used to work with this young lady named Crystal. I used to have my TV show Uncommon Sense, and she used to be on that. I remember saying to her one day, like, I really did not know Black women felt the way they felt, you know? 'Cause my whole life the strongest people around me was Black women. You know, my mother, my grandmother, my aunts, you know, my, my, my girl who's now my wife. So I just wasn't paying attention to what they were saying.

Jay Shetty 59:00 Mm.

Speaker 59:00 You know? I just assumed that they would always be there for us, and I just assumed that they were strong enough to handle any load. But yo, they, they was tired. You know what I mean? And they was tired of a lot of the fuck shit that we was doing. So for me, just those type of conversations started making me be just way more aware of what was going on around me, and it started making me be more aware of what was going on with myself. And I remember having a conversation with my homegirl Amanda Seales, and I remember Amanda saying, "Yo, brothers are damaged. They don't wanna admit that they're damaged, and they don't wanna do the work to get no healing." And I remember just hearing that word, healing, and I remember saying to myself, "I'm gonna go get me some healing." You know what I mean? I'ma go get me some real spiritual, emotional, mental healing. Forget the gym three, four times a week, you know what I'm saying? I'm about to start going to the therapist every week, and I'm about to start meditating and, you know, I'm about to, you know, just, just do whatever I gotta do to really put myself in a mentally healthy space. And then I wanted to get a, a handle on my anxiety. So you like, you know, panic attacks is something that I experienced my whole life, and the last really ... Well, not the last really big, really bad one, but the one I had that made me realize I was dealing with anxiety was when I was back at home living in Moncks Corner, South Carolina with my mother at, like, 31, 32 years old. My daughter was, like, two. My, my now wife had to move back home to Moncks Corner with her parents. And I had just gotten fired for the fourth time from radio. Finally started collecting unemployment 'cause all the other times I was too proud to do it, so I started collecting my unemployment checks. And I remember driving down I-26 in South Carolina and feeling like I was about to die. Like, same feeling, the same shortness of breath, same crazy heart palpitations, had to pull over, drink some water, said a quick prayer like, "Please, God, don't let me die on the side of the road. Like, I promise I'll go to the doctor tomorrow." Went to the doctor the next day. Doctor's like, "Yo, you got a healthy heart. Your heart is fine," you know? But he said, um, he said, "Have you, have you ever, have you suff- do you suffer from anxiety?" And I'm like, "No." And he's like, "It sounds like you had an anxiety attack." And I'm like, "I've never had that before." But I thought about it. I'm like, yo, my whole life I've had these things. And then the doctor said, uh, "Are you stressed out about anything?" I'm like, "Hell yeah." You know what I'm saying? So in my mind I could always point to something else.

Jay Shetty 1:01:13 Mm.

Speaker 1:01:14 You know? So I didn't deal with it. But then once you- G- my next gig was The Breakfast Club. Four or five years later, you richer than you ever been, you got more opportunities than you ever had, but you're still having the panic attacks.

Jay Shetty 1:01:25 Mm.

Speaker 1:01:25 You're still having the anxiety. And you're like, "Okay, where is this coming from?" And then finally my wife was like, "Yo, take your ass to therapy. Just go see what's up. Instead of flirting with the idea and talking to other people about therapy, go." And that's what I did.

Jay Shetty 1:01:38 Mm.

Speaker 1:01:38 And then, you know, when you start going to therapy, you start unpacking all kind of shit.

Jay Shetty 1:01:42 Yeah.

Speaker 1:01:43 You start dealing with trauma from things that happened to you when you was young, things that you thought you dealt with that you hadn't. You know, you start focusing on your PTSD from things that happened to you when you was young. And then you start thinking about, you know, the pain and the hurt that you still feel from certain situations, and you don't realize you have been redistributing that pain to other people for so long. That's why you didn't have no empathy for nobody else, 'cause you really was hurting.

Jay Shetty 1:02:06 Mm.

Speaker 1:02:06 And you've been hurting so long that you numb to what it is you actually feel. So-

Jay Shetty 1:02:10 Yeah

Speaker 1:02:11 ... you know.

Jay Shetty 1:02:12 I love that, man. And, and, and that's the challenge, right? Like, all of us have been through stuff-

Speaker 1:02:16 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:02:16 ... but we've never unpacked it, we've never repacked, we've never unlearned, we've never figured it out, and that's why we end up in this position. And the problem is denial. We sit there and we deny that we have any experience of stress or pressure or anxiety when the truth is we're dealing with a lot of it. And I love that. I love the fact that you're making that point clear is that whatever you're experiencing, you're de-stigmatizing mental health. Because we think mental health has to be something super mental, right? Like, we think mental health has to be something like schizophrenia or, like, a complete-

Speaker 1:02:46 Exactly

Jay Shetty 1:02:47 ... a c- a complete, uh, personality disorder-

Speaker 1:02:49 Exactly

Jay Shetty 1:02:50 ... or something. We don't realize that it could just be regular anxiety.

Speaker 1:02:53 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:02:53 Yeah.

Speaker 1:02:53 I di- I didn't realize anxiety was a mental health disorder until I started going to therapy.

Jay Shetty 1:02:57 Yeah.

Speaker 1:02:57 And I remember when they asked me to write, you know, my second book, well, they didn't ask me to write one, but they wanted me to write a second book, and I was like, "I really don't have anything to write about." 'Cause at that point I was really just trying to figure my life out.

Jay Shetty 1:03:11 Mm.

Speaker 1:03:11 'Cause you gotta understand, like, when I started going to therapy, I'm, I'm 40 now. I might've started going to therapy around 38, you know?

Jay Shetty 1:03:16 Mm.

Speaker 1:03:16 Early 39. And for me it was like, yo, can you imagine thinking you had it all together, thinking you knew exactly what, what, what was going on in the world, and then you start sitting down with a therapist and realizing you don't know shit?

Jay Shetty 1:03:32 Mm.

Speaker 1:03:32 Realizing that, you know, you, you've just ... everything that you ... You was raised t- totally wrong from, in a lot of different ways. You know, you was raised wrong by, you know, w- the, the, the influences you had growing up. You know, you was raised wrong by the, the music you was listening to growing up. You was raised wrong by your environment, and you've carried all of this stuff with you into your adult world, and you're still trying to function with, with, with this level of thinking and this level of understanding of things. But you've lived now. Like, you've lived, and you've been around the world, and you've talked to a lot of people, and you've seen other things. And you realize, like, nah, this ain't, this ain't it, bro. Like, we, we, we wrong. So imagine feeling like you know it all to realizing, I don't know shit.

Jay Shetty 1:04:15 Especially when you're an influencer.

Speaker 1:04:17 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:04:17 Like, you're an opinion maker. Like, people come to you to listen to your thoughts-

Speaker 1:04:20 So-

Jay Shetty 1:04:21 ... and then you have to go through that process

Speaker 1:04:22 ... absolutely. So the only thing I could do is, like, you know what? I gotta take people on this journey with me.

Jay Shetty 1:04:28 Mm.

Speaker 1:04:28 Simple as that.

Jay Shetty 1:04:29 Mm.

Speaker 1:04:29 You know, I remember, I remember telling my book publisher, like, "Look, you know, I've been going to therapy. I've been keeping a journal. Um, you know, I, I've been dealing with my anxiety, but then I realize I'm dealing with my PTSD. I'm realizing I got trauma from things that happened to me when I was younger. I'm, you know, talking about being molested when I was eight. You know, I'm talking about issues with my father." Like, all of these different things, you know? Uh, fear of not being a good husband, fear of not being a good father, you know, fear of, you know, not being a good friend. You know, just all kind of different things. And so I just started turning these into a pa- in the pages of a book. And what I was trying to do, I was trying to translate what my therapist was telling me. But that doesn't work, you know? Because what, what your therapist is telling you just helps for you to have a better understanding of what it is you're going through. So one thing that my therapist did help me do was to explain what I was going through better, but I brought in a doctor named Dr. Ish to give, like, the clinical correlations to everything that I was feeling. And, and, and that's, that's what was ... That was really the most beautiful thing about the book. That was therapeutic for me. And I know people say that all the time when they write books. "Oh, it was therapeutic for me," but no, this was really therapeutic for me, 'cause this is not a, it's not a book about understanding.

Jay Shetty 1:05:34 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:05:35 Like, it's not a ... It's a book of confusion. It's a book of unpacking. It's a book of, this is all the shit that don't serve me no more. This is w- this is what was fucked up about me, you know? And I don't want this no more.

Jay Shetty 1:05:46 Mm.

Speaker 1:05:46 Like, here. Y'all take this. This is gone, you know? 'Cause I'm at stage zero right now.

Jay Shetty 1:05:53 Mm.

Speaker 1:05:53 And guess what? Happy to be at stage zero. [laughs] Like-

Jay Shetty 1:05:56 Yeah, yeah

Speaker 1:05:56 ... like, it feels good to not know.

Jay Shetty 1:05:58 Yeah.

Speaker 1:05:58 You know? And it feels good to say you don't know.

Jay Shetty 1:06:00 Yeah.

Speaker 1:06:00 And, and I feel like at 40, I'm doing more unlearning than learning-

Jay Shetty 1:06:04 Absolutely, man

Speaker 1:06:04 ... at this point in my life.

Jay Shetty 1:06:05 Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely, and that's, that's the biggest challenge today is, like, that ability to speed up unlearning, relearning.

Speaker 1:06:11 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:06:12 Right? Relearning again, and I think so many of us get blocked by thinking we know it all already. So I love that, man. It's a great message. Let's tap into some of those fears in a bit more detail, because I think your unlearning and your healing in those are awesome. So if we look at something like parental paranoia, which I know a lot of people have. Like, becoming a parent, I'm not a parent yet, that's why I'm asking, but I'm also asking it because one w- area of wisdom that I don't talk about is parenting, because I'm not a parent.

Speaker 1:06:36 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:06:36 And I know my audience cares a lot about this. So let's talk about that parental paranoia, which I think is very normal. How have you kind of grown to deal with that and work with that or heal that?

Speaker 1:06:46 You said something earlier. You said something about you ... What'd you say? You realize your parent, when you realize your parents-

Jay Shetty 1:06:51 The, the day you realize your parents are right, your kids are telling you that you were wrong.

Speaker 1:06:54 Yeah. And, and I, I guess that was another one of those moments, you know? Um, only because you think about all the times your grandmother used to, to trip out over you, or all the times your mother and father used to trip out over you, uh, wonder where you was at and why you didn't come home. Like, I remember my father, you know, gave my, my sis- my older sister a beating 'cause she broke curfew and c- and I remember everybody running around the town looking for her, trying to find out where she was, and this and that. Now it's just like That is only, that's a paranoia that only a parent can understand.

Jay Shetty 1:07:26 Mm.

Speaker 1:07:26 You know what I'm saying? Like, the love you have for your children. Like, they, that, those are risk- I got three girls, so those are, that's really your heart outside of your body. Like, you're looking, like somebody just ripped my organ out and threw it on the table, and I'm like, "Yo, could you be more gentle with my heart? That's my heart." So it's just, like, uh, when my daughter is on the way to school in the morning, you know, or her being at school right now, like, I don't feel any sense of relief. Well, I got a sense of relief now because I know it's 3:00, so she's out of school. Now she got out of school 2:30. But I don't feel any sense of relief until I know she's home.

Jay Shetty 1:07:56 Home.

Speaker 1:07:57 You know? Only because I don't know what she's going to experience at school.

Jay Shetty 1:08:00 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:08:00 Especially nowadays, you know what I mean? Like, these kids are growing up way different than we ever grew up. And then you see stupid shit on the news like school shootings, and you're like, man. You know? Like, you start thinking the worst-

Jay Shetty 1:08:11 Yeah

Speaker 1:08:11 ... at all times, you know? And it's just like, those are the things that I'm afraid of, you know?

Jay Shetty 1:08:17 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:08:17 And then even just when your, your kids get older, I remember somebody asking me the question one day. Somebody said ... Which I think Jemele Hill asked me this. Jemele Hill said, "Are you, uh, would, would you, are you the type, are you the type of man you would want your daughter to date?"

Jay Shetty 1:08:32 Mm.

Speaker 1:08:33 "Or, or be with?" And I was like, "Yeah, probably me from 35 to 40. Anything before that, hell no."

Jay Shetty 1:08:41 [laughs]

Speaker 1:08:41 You know?

Jay Shetty 1:08:42 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:08:42 But, but that's honestly, think about, think about that question.

Jay Shetty 1:08:44 Yeah.

Speaker 1:08:45 Like, if you got girls, are you the type of man that you would want your daughter to date? Like, stuff like that is what'll help you go out there and get the healing you need if the answer is no.

Jay Shetty 1:08:57 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:08:58 You know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 1:08:58 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:08:58 If the answer is no, then go out there and get that healing you need. Take your ass to therapy. Whatever it is you gotta do to, you know, be the man that you would want-

Jay Shetty 1:09:08 Yeah

Speaker 1:09:08 ... your daughter to date. So, like, I'm, I'm paranoid about all of that stuff. Like, I, it's certain things that I've already embraced. Like, I know one day my daughter's gonna have sex. You know what I'm saying? Like, and then-

Jay Shetty 1:09:16 She's gonna get a-

Speaker 1:09:17 It's gonna happen. Like, every woman that we love in our life has sex. Your mama, your grandma, you know, your sisters, your aunt. That's gonna happen. So it's just, like, things like that, I'm about to get a panic attack thinking about it. But that's just, yeah, you- [laughs] You, like, things like that is what you just have to accept.

Jay Shetty 1:09:36 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:36 You understand what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 1:09:37 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:09:37 So it's just like, you know, I always gotta remember my serenity prayer, man.

Jay Shetty 1:09:41 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:09:41 And that's just, "God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference," 'cause there's nothing I can do. And that's, somebody else told me that, too, and that was, like, one of the most freeing things to me. They told me that you gotta just let go.

Jay Shetty 1:09:53 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:54 Like, no matter how I can, I can grab my daughter like this and hold onto her tight.

Jay Shetty 1:09:56 [laughs]

Speaker 1:09:57 I've been, I gotta let go. She's 10.

Jay Shetty 1:09:59 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:59 My other daughter's gonna be older in a minute, too. She's gonna be in school. Like, they got their own lives that they gotta live, their own lives that they gotta lead. Only thing I can do is just guide them along the way.

Jay Shetty 1:10:09 Absolutely, man. Absolutely. No, you're spot on. And, and I think that's, like you said, that's a natural feeling everyone's gonna have. I always had that with my younger sisters. I've got a younger sister. I always felt like I fathered her to some degree.

Speaker 1:10:19 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:10:19 And there was always that feeling and that pain of seeing her date or whatever it may be. And you're right, that's just something you have to accept.

Speaker 1:10:26 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:10:26 And there's a big part of acceptance needed, because you can't control everything. And that's also liberating when you figure that out, that not everything is for yours to control.

Speaker 1:10:35 Absolutely.

Jay Shetty 1:10:36 And it's not for you to control. There is certain things to humanize yourself by, and you realize, oh, actually, I'm not that significant, because I can't control everything, and I have to learn to accept certain things.

Speaker 1:10:45 Yeah, I was gonna write a book. I mean, I, I don't think I'm gonna go with this title anymore just 'cause the energy of it don't feel right. But, you know, at, at, at one point I was gonna write a book called One Day Your Daughter's Gonna Suck Dick: And Other Things You Have to Accept as a Father.

Jay Shetty 1:10:57 [laughs] Whoa. So now what you gonna change the title to?

Speaker 1:11:01 I might not cha-

Jay Shetty 1:11:01 Okay.

Speaker 1:11:01 I just think that, that, that just feels a little too crash.

Jay Shetty 1:11:04 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:05 You know what I'm saying?

Jay Shetty 1:11:05 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:05 Like, I, and I know that sounds crazy coming from me.

Jay Shetty 1:11:07 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:07 But I'm not, I'm, I've, I've, I guess I've grown.

Jay Shetty 1:11:10 [laughs]

Speaker 1:11:10 You know what I'm saying? I guess I've grown, 'cause at one point I'm like, "Yeah, that's the title. I love that." But then now it's like, eh, I don't know if I want to put that out there.

Jay Shetty 1:11:16 I think it'd be a useful book, though.

Speaker 1:11:17 Very useful.

Jay Shetty 1:11:18 Very useful book, yeah.

Speaker 1:11:18 But sometimes, man, you know you gotta present the message in the right package.

Jay Shetty 1:11:23 Yeah, the right packaging.

Speaker 1:11:23 You know? Sometimes, yeah, people will dismiss you and, and just because of that title.

Jay Shetty 1:11:28 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:11:28 You know what I mean? Which I think is whack. I'm not that kind of person. You know?

Jay Shetty 1:11:31 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:31 I'm the type of person, if I see a book like The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck-

Jay Shetty 1:11:35 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:11:35 ... I'm going to read that book. You know what I mean? I'm like, ooh, that's a dope ti- like, that grabbed me. But I know I come from a different generation.

Jay Shetty 1:11:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:41 I come from a different culture. You know, I was gonna name my first book, I Don't Give a Fuck and Neither Should You: A Self-Help Guide on How Not to Give a Fuck.

Jay Shetty 1:11:47 Mm.

Speaker 1:11:47 And the book publishers was like, "No, you'll never get into Walmart. You'll never get into Target. Nobody will buy a book with fuck in the title."

Jay Shetty 1:11:53 Yeah.

Speaker 1:11:53 And then here comes-

Jay Shetty 1:11:53 Mark Manson, yeah

Speaker 1:11:54 ... The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, Mark Manson. Sold goddamn over two million copies, and I remember sending that shit to Ed. I wrote about that book in my book, 'cause I was talking about how, you know, you, sometimes you just gotta sh- listen to yourself.

Jay Shetty 1:12:07 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1:12:08 You know? Like, sometimes you're ahead of the curve, and other people have to just catch up.

Jay Shetty 1:12:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:12:12 And that's just the way our society is, especially when it comes to creatives.

Jay Shetty 1:12:15 Mm.

Speaker 1:12:15 That's why you gotta let creatives just be creatives, 'cause they're already 10 steps ahead of you. But you got all of these suits, whether it's TV, whether it's the film world-

Jay Shetty 1:12:23 Suits

Speaker 1:12:24 ... whether it's books. Like, you just got these suits that are old and stuck in their ways, and being that they've, they've never seen it work before, they'll tell you it can't work.

Jay Shetty 1:12:33 Yeah.

Speaker 1:12:34 Not knowing that you might be the first that changes the whole game.

Jay Shetty 1:12:38 Totally. Totally.

Speaker 1:12:38 Nobody, nobody wants to be game changers anymore.

Jay Shetty 1:12:40 Yeah.

Speaker 1:12:40 You know?

Jay Shetty 1:12:41 Yeah, absolutely. You look at Bohemian Rhapsody and Freddie Mercury.

Speaker 1:12:43 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:12:43 It's, like, such a game changer. And you look at anyone that we look up to or admire in the world, they've been game changers.

Speaker 1:12:49 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:12:49 They don't write books about people who are not game changers. You don't make movies about people that are not game changers. But we've always been taught about, how do you trust other people? We don't get taught how to trust yourself.

Speaker 1:12:59 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:12:59 Right? We, we get taught, how do you communicate with other people? We never learn how to communicate with ourself.

Speaker 1:13:03 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:13:03 And so if you never trust your own self, you're always looking for validation. Like, "Hey, do you think this is a good idea? Hey, suit, do you think this is a good idea? Hey, suit, do you think this is a good idea?" And then that suit becomes your validation and your decision maker.

Speaker 1:13:14 Absolutely, and those are the most uncreative people in the world. Like, I've never been more confident in my life than I am right now.

Jay Shetty 1:13:19 Mm.

Speaker 1:13:19 And I'm confident in the fact that I don't know shit.

Jay Shetty 1:13:21 Yeah.

Speaker 1:13:22 And I'm comfortable with that. You know? And I'm confident in the fact that I am A person who truly loves they self. And the reason I truly love myself, 'cause I've done the work to truly love myself. And it's easier for me. And I guess that's why I get hurt a lot, because I am a loving, trusting person. 'Cause I- I'm, I'm at the point in my life where I just, I try to see the good in everybody, you know what I mean? And, and, and I don't expect you to fuck me over. That's another lesson I, I've recently learned.

Jay Shetty 1:13:51 Yeah, go for it, man.

Speaker 1:13:52 I used to... I, I still believe in the law of attraction, meaning that your thoughts become things.

Jay Shetty 1:13:56 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:13:57 But, um, I don't necessarily think I believe in energy as far as, like, whatever you put out, you get back.

Jay Shetty 1:14:04 Mm, mm, mm.

Speaker 1:14:04 Because it will always be somebody else out there who's having a fucked-up day-

Jay Shetty 1:14:10 Mm

Speaker 1:14:10 ... who will ruin yours.

Jay Shetty 1:14:11 Yeah, mm.

Speaker 1:14:11 'Cause you gotta think, all, all we're trying to do every day is avoid crazy.

Jay Shetty 1:14:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1:14:15 Right? We're just trying to stay out of the way of negativity, crazy, evil. But guess what? Sometimes it's people out there who are hurt.

Jay Shetty 1:14:21 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 1:14:21 And they haven't done the work on themselves.

Jay Shetty 1:14:23 Mm.

Speaker 1:14:23 And they haven't, you know, gotten to that place where they're trying to do any healing, and so hurt people hurt people, and sometimes we run into those people.

Jay Shetty 1:14:30 Yeah.

Speaker 1:14:30 And it has nothing to do with anything that we did. We just happened to run into, you know, some of that negativity that day.

Jay Shetty 1:14:36 Yeah.

Speaker 1:14:37 So, so that's just, that's just something I've been thinking about. So it's just like, yo, you just gotta, you gotta do... You gotta l- put that kinda energy out there just because you like putting that kinda energy out there, not because you're putting that kinda energy out there 'cause you wanna get it back.

Jay Shetty 1:14:48 To get it back. Yeah, absolutely. And I've realized, actually, that when you put out good, it does come back to you, just not in the same place as you put it.

Speaker 1:14:54 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:14:54 Right? Like, it will, that energy will transfer back, but not in the same place as you put it. So just because you put good energy into work doesn't mean good energy's gonna come back to you through work.

Speaker 1:15:03 Absolutely.

Jay Shetty 1:15:04 Just 'cause you put good energy into this person doesn't mean this person's gonna give you good energy back.

Speaker 1:15:08 Absolutely.

Jay Shetty 1:15:08 And that's our expectation, is that we think, like, "If I'm nice to this person, they'll be nice to me," and that's not gonna work like that.

Speaker 1:15:13 Nope.

Jay Shetty 1:15:13 Right?

Speaker 1:15:13 Be nice to that person 'cause you want to be nice to that person.

Jay Shetty 1:15:16 Yeah.

Speaker 1:15:16 And put a period on it.

Jay Shetty 1:15:17 Yeah. Absolutely. I love that, man. I feel like one of the biggest mistakes we all make as humans is that we keep communicating peop- with people from where we are, not where they are, and so we forget that we were where they are right now. And if we just talk to them recognizing that that was us 10 years ago, 20, 30, 50, whatever it is, that that would make all the difference. And now you have a vocabulary for it. We do. We understand mental illness better. We understand mental health. We understand these terms a bit better. We're getting there. How-

Speaker 1:15:47 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:15:47 ... how did, when was it when you first started realizing that this was mental illness, this was mental health, this was, uh, their conditioning and challenges that were on a deeper level as oppo- just r- more than just their addiction?

Speaker 1:16:00 I think just simply, like I said, by being able to make the, uh, connection or lack thereof-

Jay Shetty 1:16:06 Yeah

Speaker 1:16:06 ... between a friend of mine's parents and my parents.

Jay Shetty 1:16:10 Got it.

Speaker 1:16:10 Like, just seeing your kinda normal person who can go and hold a job. I think my mom only ever had, like, two jobs.

Jay Shetty 1:16:15 Mm.

Speaker 1:16:15 I think she worked at a supermarket for a little bit, and she worked at Chick-fil-A, and she could not stand people telling her what to do. And I realized that, and yet, then she would tell me what to do, and yet I had to just suck it up and take it. Um, and then even, even with myself, like I said, m- me going through anxiety was, like, a big eye-opener. And I remember my first panic attack. I was, like, 13 years old, and, um, it was really scary, and my mom had gone away. Well, she, I mean, she just went to the store for, like, an hour. But I had this panic attack, and I started to realize I was, I was dealing with, like, separation anxiety from my mother and that a lot of our relationship was more, uh, based on brainwashing, which sounds crazy. But the, the, having this feeling that I needed her, and that if she wasn't there, like, my entire world would crumble. And I didn't know how to deal with anxiety. Um, and, and honestly, I only really learned how to deal with anxiety much later in life, like in my late 20s. I'm 31 now. And even right now, Jay, like, I'm, I'm pretty anxious right now. I don't know why. It's really weird. I felt fine before I got on in, in front of the camera, and even right now, like, I have this, like, feeling of anxiety. And maybe it's a number of things. Maybe it's, uh, I'm recounting my childhood. I just, I have a book that's come out. Uh, you know, so many things that are going on in my mind. I'm fine. I know I'm fine. I'm drinking water. I'm talking to an amazing human being. I'm, everything is okay, and yet internally, there is still is a part of me that feels a little jittery, and a little nervous, and a little this, and a little that. And, um, I've learned how to deal with that. And instead of, like, freaking out, I just go, "You're fine. It's okay. Feeling this way is normal." Um, I, I remember speaking with my therapist, and she told me, um... I was like, "I hate the fact that I feel anxious." I was like, "There's people out there that don't really, you know, they, they just have kind of general anxiety, but they don't have that anxiety where it can also affect them physically, where they feel weird, or they feel like they could pass out, or this, or da-da-da." And she was like, "Yeah. Uh, and then sometimes it happens to them, like Tony Soprano when they're in their 50s trying to feed the ducks in, you know, in their pool, and then that's just their life after that." And she said, "The thing is, is not, like you, you have to accept that that's just who you are, and that's the way your life is now, and do the best that you can to combat and deal with that anxiety and those emotions in the most positive, uh, manner possible." So it wasn't until I started truly understanding what anxiety meant and how much it can affect your day-to-day personal and professional life that I, I even grew more sympathetic towards my mother and all the things that she was dealing with.

Jay Shetty 1:18:57 Yeah. Well, I, I wanna thank you for sharing that, and also just to say that I d- I do think it's natural and extremely brave when you're sharing such personal accounts of things in your life, and you're putting them out there, and we, we know the world we live in, where everything we say is ... You know, it's natural for you to feel that way, so I, I really appreciate you even opening up and sharing that.

Speaker 1:19:17 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:19:18 And I just want you to know that I think you're sharing your story, not just on this interview, but in this book, in a way that is going to help so many people with their perspective. So I want you to know that.

Speaker 1:19:29 Thank you, man.

Jay Shetty 1:19:29 And I also want you to know that we, yeah, we all have anxiety. I, I officiated ... someone's wedding this weekend, the wedding that-

Speaker 1:19:36 Wow

Jay Shetty 1:19:36 ... the weekend that just went, and my wife said it to me. She was like, "Jay, I've never seen you this anxious [laughs] or stressed-

Speaker 1:19:42 Wow

Jay Shetty 1:19:42 ... in your life with anything you do." And I was like, "Because it's someone's wedding day." I was like-

Speaker 1:19:47 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:19:47 ... and people were like, "Oh, but you've done this a million times and you've done..." And I was like, "It doesn't matter how many times I've done it, it's someone different, and it's their wedding day."

Speaker 1:19:56 Agreed.

Jay Shetty 1:19:57 And this is an important moment for someone. And what I've realized, and I love what you said there, because I do something similar, I've redefined my relationship with anxiety that I feel an- anxious when I care.

Speaker 1:20:09 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:20:09 So I know that when I'm feeling anxious, it's because it's something good about me is that I care. I'm a human that-

Speaker 1:20:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:20:15 ... loves and cares and is compassionate and wants to serve these two beautiful people that I wedded that I love and that love me and I have a relationship with. It's because of that. I'm not scared about what someone thinks about it or how it goes. I'm, I'm anxious because I care about these two people, and I feel they deserve something special.

Speaker 1:20:34 It's funny you say that, because another thing that I had dealt with for, I mean, I s- everybody deals with it, is intrusive thoughts.

Jay Shetty 1:20:40 Mm.

Speaker 1:20:40 You, you're aware of this, right?

Jay Shetty 1:20:41 Yeah.

Speaker 1:20:41 Intrusive thoughts. So it could be the craziest thing. It could be your baby falling to its death, it could be you, I don't know, punching a store clerk, and you're just like, "Oh, my God, why would I think that? How could I think something so despicable?" Or whatever the case may be, these dark thoughts. Um, and I remember talking to my therapist, and she was like, "Well, one, those aren't really your thoughts. You're not thinking that." She was like, "That's kinda douchebag brain," as she put it.

Jay Shetty 1:21:03 [laughs]

Speaker 1:21:04 She was like, "It's just these thoughts that pop into your head, and you need to understand that that's, that's also, um, like, conscious, like your, your, your conscious recognizes that and, and is then terrified." And, uh, so I think when it comes to anxiety and, and the things you care about, it's like, oh, my God, if I think about my baby dying, it's because that's the most precious thing to me. If I think about, I don't know, pu- like I said, punching some clerk in the face, it's like violence. I hate violence. So it's these things that my brain is doing that, that I'm kinda then freaking out about. But it's about how we deal with that. If we then, uh, focus on it too much and obsess, why would I think that, why would I think that, why would I think that, then every time y- we're in a situation where that thought is then triggered, then it just becomes more intense. And the real, the key there is to not really focus on it, is to really not think about it, understand that it's a thought. It's a disgusting thought that you didn't even think in your he- it just somehow popped in and you were like, "Oh, my goodness, you know, to hell with you." And that's also how I feel about anxiety. I think there's a difference between legitimately like, "Oh, I'm starting to see stars," or, "I feel like I p- I need to sit down." Like, that could be different, even though it may be anxiety, but it's like, ask yourself, have you been working really hard? Have you drank enough water today? Have you eaten? Have you this, have you that? And having the, the, the mind, the mindset to be able to just ask yourself what is going on. And that was something I couldn't do for a long time. I was very unhealthy, both physically and mentally. Um, and once I really learned how to utilize these tools, uh, my life became better. But I mean, I still get anxiety. Like, it sucks.

Jay Shetty 1:22:37 Of course, yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:22:39 But it also is great. I mean, [laughs] I'm not gonna say anxiety's great. Anxiety just sucks, but, but i- i- it's, look at this great conversation we're having because of it. I've made songs about it. I've written parts in scripts about it. I've, like, I get it and I understand it, and because of that, it's actually allowed me to connect with people, um, on such a deeper level-

Jay Shetty 1:23:00 Mm

Speaker 1:23:00 ... and being willing to go... 'Cause I'll, I'll tell you this, man. I love rap, I love hip-hop. It's a beautiful place. It's also a negative place, just like the world is. And but I've met a lot of rappers where I try to have, like, deeper conversations with them, and they just don't do it-

Jay Shetty 1:23:15 Mm-hmm

Speaker 1:23:15 ... because I think they're also scared and in, uh, to internalize how they're feeling. But I did have one guy, and he- I'll never forget, he was like, "Bro, I wish I could be you." And I was like, "What do you mean? I'm, like, the nerd rapper who solves Rubik's Cubes and raps about sci-fi." And you're like, "You're that dude. You know, you got the cred," even though low-key I've shot guns and cooked crack, so I guess I have the cred as well, but I don't really perpetuate that life. And he was like, "Look, man." He was like, "I'm scared." He was like, "That was so long ago. That's not who I am anymore." And he's like, "I like video games. I like this. I like that. I wish I could just be myself." And when he said that to me, I realized that all the years and time that, times that I'd been made fun of in hip-hop or this or that, well, at the end of the day, I may have been made fun of by a certain sect or, quote-unquote, cool group or the jocks of rap, but at least I was always myself and never had to pretend to be somebody I was not. And then that led to, you know, just saying I'd rather be hated for who I am than loved for who I'm not, which I think, like, Kurt Cobain or somebody said.

Jay Shetty 1:24:11 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:24:11 I don't know who said it, but yeah, there it is.

Jay Shetty 1:24:13 Yeah, no, that's a beautiful message, man. I think that's something everyone can relate to, and what you were speaking about there about the douchebag brain-

Speaker 1:24:18 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:24:19 ... uh, in, in, in the monastery we used to call it the monkey mind and the monk mind.

Speaker 1:24:23 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:24:23 So you have the monkey mind that's, you know, saying all these intrusive thoughts, as you said, saying all these self-doubt, anxiety, and then you have the monk mind, which is the, the calm, the still, the balanced, and to bring that monkey mind back under control. And so-

Speaker 1:24:37 Monkey mind, I love it

Jay Shetty 1:24:37 ... but yeah, for me, that was always a, that was always a fun way of thinking about it. It's just like, oh, I've just got this monkey that's jumping from branch to branch in my head, and, you know, it doesn't know what it wants, and it's confused, and it's moving fast, but the monk mind can kinda ground it. So that-

Speaker 1:24:52 Wow

Jay Shetty 1:24:52 ... that aligns very strongly.

Speaker 1:24:54 I've alwa- I always saw this guy who looks like, I want you to imagine, like, a cartoon. There's this episode of Futurama, it's one of my favorite cartoons, but, um, s- I forget the episode. But there's, like, this liquid guy, and he's, like, blue, and he looks like just kind of moving water, and his head's all back-

Jay Shetty 1:25:10 [laughs]

Speaker 1:25:10 ... and he looks kinda cool. I imagine that guy in a, in a leather jacket sitting on a, a, um, like a, a beach chair in my brain, and he's responsible for these thoughts. He's, like you said, the monkey mind. It's like this monkey, but it's like, that's how I see this guy, and I've actually had conversations with this guy. Like, "Get out of here, dude. Like, like, it's like, chill. Like, stop." And then he'll say something to me that I hear... And it almost sounds like I'm crazy, right? 'Cause it's like I'm having a conversation with myself in my head, but I have had this, and I'm like, "No, like, not today, man." And sometimes he really, he'll, he'll hit me with some crazy images or me freaking out or going to the h- emergency room or just all these things, 'cause I'm always constantly thinking about my health. And, um- I have to have those conversations and tell the water blob or monkey man or whatever to calm down and, and do my best to be in control, which is actually really funny-

Jay Shetty 1:26:03 Yeah

Speaker 1:26:03 ... because I'm not in control. We're not really in control, and I think accepting the fact that you're not in control in some weird way gives you a bit of control at the same time, but yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:26:13 Yeah, yeah, it def- it gives you more control over what you can control if-

Speaker 1:26:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:26:16 ... there's any of that that you can do. So no, I, I like that, and I love the Futurama reference or-

Speaker 1:26:21 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:26:21 ... all the Futurama references.

Speaker 1:26:23 Well, that patience, love, and compassion doesn't just come from anywhere. It definitely comes from a practice of meditating, having grace, and some people just aren't ready, and that's okay. And, um, meditation helps me a lot to have grace and compassion for those people because when I do sit down to meditate and I'm in a place where I'm angry, I sit and I think, and I, and I, you know, I try to clear my mind. But if I can't, I, I think through it, and I end up coming to a point where I just, I release the anger. And maybe it was because I know I'm a Leo and Leos can be very stubborn, but, like, I work so hard not to be stubborn. And so I try to h- to have grace because it is so easy for me to hold a grudge against people. I can hold a grudge and, and never speak to someone again, and that's not a trait that I'm proud of because I've realized that, that that's not a very human thing to do. H- Being human is having compassion and, and understanding and respect for people even when they mess up and, um, because we all do. We all mes- mess up, and I've, I've messed up a bunch, but I know that because I've messed up, I can have grace and mercy for other people when they mess up.

Jay Shetty 1:27:49 I love that. I c- I cannot tell you how beautiful that is to hear, and I can't wait for everyone to hear that. I think it's such a true, true, true statement that the mistakes we've all made, which we all make, I've made loads of mistakes, and y- you were saying you have, too. All those mistakes, they, uh, they ground us. They humble us. They, they remind us of how we're all, uh, no one is immune to making a mistake and, and anyone at any time can make a mistake knowingly or unlo- unknowingly. And actually-

Speaker 1:28:18 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:28:18 ... I'm gonna play that part specifically to my wife because my wife is a Leo, and she's so stubborn-

Speaker 1:28:23 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:28:24 ... and she knows it.

Speaker 1:28:25 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:28:25 And so what you just said to me, I did not know that trait, that I didn't know that was a Leo trait.

Speaker 1:28:29 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:28:30 So I'm gonna play that exact part to my wife and be like, "L- look what Demi's saying."

Speaker 1:28:34 It's about the only thing I know about my astrology sign, but-

Jay Shetty 1:28:37 [laughs]

Speaker 1:28:38 It's, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:28:39 Yeah, I d- I did not know that at all, so now I, I, I am, I am feeling that I can be more compassionate towards my wife when she, when she is-

Speaker 1:28:47 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:28:47 ... stubborn, uh, because yeah, because it's part of, part of the traits. Uh, tell, tell me a bit about, you know, what do you think... When, when you're... One of the things that you did this year, and this was actually when I, when I first watched your documentary, Dancing With The Devil, uh, I was completely blown away. Like, it was, it was incredible.

Speaker 1:29:11 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:29:11 Uh, it was, it was incredible. It just, I g- I couldn't believe where you took us and where you allowed us in. And-

Speaker 1:29:18 Thank you

Jay Shetty 1:29:18 ... and I, I know you said in this episode, in this podcast, you just said that, you know, you shared your story and then you realized the perspective that it was so much bigger than your story, which by the way is, again, such a wonderful perspective. At the same time, you've been through so much that when you share, it helps so many. You talked about so many... You talked about an experience with rape. You talked about experiences with, you know, sexual abuse and assault, and when I hear about those things and I still see you coming and rising like a phoenix, you know, from, from all these, like, challenges and, and pain, I wonder, where is your strength coming from today? Like, where do you look to for strength? You said meditation there, and I'd love for you to guide us through your meditation practice. Is there anything else that's giving you strength?

Speaker 1:30:09 What's giving me strength, I mean, there's strength all around me, and that's my support system, whether that's my friends or my treatment team or it's my friends, uh, my family. You know, it's, it's people around me. I always have support, and I never feel alone, which is beautiful. Um, but yeah, I think some of my, my meditations, I, I listen to guided meditations, um, but I also, I like to tone my chakras, and so I do, like, a sound bath, and, um, and yeah, those are, like... The, the great thing about meditation for me is that I thought that you had to be completely silent, still, with your eyes closed and your hands like this, and you know, there's different types of meditation. There's different... As long as you are quieting your thoughts and trying to just chill-

Jay Shetty 1:31:06 [laughs]

Speaker 1:31:08 ... then, like, then, then it's good. Then, like, you can meditate with your eyes open. You can meditate while you're doing things. It's just people don't realize how, how easy it is, and you don't have to be perfect at it, and that was what kept me away from meditating for so long was trying to be perfect at it.

Jay Shetty 1:31:24 Yeah. Thank you, thank you for simplifying it for everyone. I, I couldn't agree more. I, when I, when I learned how to meditate when I was 18, I was introduced to three practices, breathwork, visualization, and mantra and sound. And it was so-

Speaker 1:31:38 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:31:38 ... refreshing to realize that there was breathwork for the body. There was visualization for the mind. There was mantra for the soul and the spirit and the energy, and to me, I was like Wow, there's, there's a menu for meditation. And-

Speaker 1:31:53 Yeah, definitely

Jay Shetty 1:31:54 ... and you could, you could try which one worked for you, and you could build it. And as you said, there is no perfect meditator, and the practice of trying to be perfect is almost as far away from meditation as [laughs] as there can be. So I, I love that you're-

Speaker 1:32:08 Right

Jay Shetty 1:32:08 ... simplifying it for so many people and, and making it natural. What's, what's been one of your favorite meditation experiences? Have you had any that have really, maybe, maybe you've gained a message or an insight, or you've just been able to be really calm? Is- has there been an experience that you could share with us?

Speaker 1:32:25 There's been so many experiences that I could share with you. I mean, it's having a realization about things that you thought you would never figure out in your lifetime, um, relationships that you thought were completely over and then all of a sudden they pop into your mind during a meditation, and you feel the need to reach out to them. So you do, and all of a sudden you've rekindled a relationship, or you've repaired a relationship that that stubbornness I thought I was holding onto, um, you know, for, for good, i- it's when I was able to release that stubbornness. And so sometimes I feel like my intuition is i- i- when I meditate, it just, like, raises its hand and is like, "Hey," [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:33:08 [laughs]

Speaker 1:33:09 You know? Like, "Listen, listen to me. Here's a song idea. Here's a, h- reach out to this person." Or i- or even sometimes weird things happen where I don't reach out to that person, but they reach out to me.

Jay Shetty 1:33:22 Mm.

Speaker 1:33:22 You know? And it, and it's interesting how your intuition starts to work when you really start to listen to it.

Jay Shetty 1:33:28 Yes. Yes, and that is such a good point. Most of us, whenever we talk about the word intuition, a lot of people say, "Well, Jay, I don't hear any voices." And the truth is we don't hear voices because we've been ignoring it for so long. And you're right, that as soon as you start to listen-

Speaker 1:33:43 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:33:43 ... to it, it gets louder, it gets stronger, it gets more powerful. That's, that's such a great point, that as soon as you start listening, even if it's the tiniest bit of intuition, if you start listening to it, that voice-

Speaker 1:33:54 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:33:54 ... gets so much more stronger and powerful. And I- you're so right, Demi, that in that meditation you're giving space for that voice.

Speaker 1:34:03 Yes, you are. You, you're giving, you're putting that voice in an amphitheater. You know what I mean? You're giving that voice a huge platform to, to reach out and say, "Hey, this is what's on my mind." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:34:15 [laughs] Your voice sounds very cute though, saying hey with a, with a little hand out. [laughs]

Speaker 1:34:19 [laughs] Hey.

Jay Shetty 1:34:20 That sounds like an ador- that sounds like an adorable voice. It seems like an emoji with a voice.

Speaker 1:34:24 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:34:25 [laughs] Whereas, yeah, whereas, whereas, you know, some- someone else might be like, "I don't like the voice in my head." Uh-

Speaker 1:34:31 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:34:31 [laughs] But that's the noise. That's the noise. The voice in our head-

Speaker 1:34:35 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:34:35 ... should feel like a smiley face emoji that's like, "Please listen to me."

Speaker 1:34:38 Hey.

Jay Shetty 1:34:38 "Please," yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 1:34:39 Yeah, please.

Jay Shetty 1:34:41 I hope-

Speaker 1:34:42 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:34:42 ... anyone who's listening to this right now, if you're not watching, you have to go back and look at the video of, of-

Speaker 1:34:46 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:34:47 ... Demi doing hey, because it's adorable and, and you have-

Speaker 1:34:51 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:34:51 ... you have to see it because now every time I hear my voice, my intuition, I'm gonna see that little hey.

Speaker 1:34:56 Yeah, good.

Jay Shetty 1:34:57 So-

Speaker 1:34:57 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:34:57 [laughs] I love that. I love that you're laughing too because one of the things that's always been important to me is that meditation and mindfulness and consciousness, it can be fun, and it can be playful.

Speaker 1:35:09 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:35:10 And it doesn't have to be this really, like, d- it's disciplined, but it's, it's not this artificial, hardcore, you know, rough int- like, it can, it can be playful and fun.

Speaker 1:35:22 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:35:22 I, I, could you share a bit about that? Because I see you as such a fun-loving person, and, and even now we're both laughing about voices in our head. But, but tell me a bit about that. Have you, have you allowed your playfulness to come through more and, and your energy to come through?

Speaker 1:35:39 Yes. I quieted my intense meditation personal trainer voice that was in my head. You know, like, when you go to the gym and, and you have a, a personal trainer or somebody that's, like, really pushing you? And that, that just doesn't work for me, and that is the voice that I had in my head every time I went to meditate. It was, "Stop opening your eyes. Stop thinking about this. Stop thinking about that." And it was just, like, to the point where f- three minutes would go by, and I'd be like, "I'm already over this." You know what I'm saying? And so I had to really quiet that voice down. And when I started meditating, especially outside, you know, there's gonna be noises, there's gonna be animals, things like that, planes that fly over, and if I felt myself wanting to open my eyes, I just allowed myself to because I thought, "What are you going to gain from opening your eyes and just taking a second to appreciate the sound that you're hearing?" And sometimes I had really beautiful insights. Sometimes I was like, "Wow, that's a big plane."

Jay Shetty 1:36:43 [laughs]

Speaker 1:36:44 But, like, [laughs] other times I had beautiful moments where I thought, one time, for instance, um, I was outside and there were all these bugs, and I was trying to meditate. And I thought to myself, "What do I do about the bugs?" Right? Like, what, what can I do?

Jay Shetty 1:37:00 [laughs]

Speaker 1:37:00 'Cause I'm just shooing them away, and then I had this moment where I thought, "Nobody was shooing bugs away at Woodstock when they were perfectly, like, content and having the best time in the, like, in the wilderness, basically." They were hippies that, like, they learned to share and coexist with the bugs that were there. And I was like, "Wow, these little tiny organisms are flying around me. They're maybe just trying to say hello. They're just... Or, or they're just living their lives," but, like, in my head, they're trying to say hi. And that makes it more appealing and fun for me. And so I open my eyes, and I just, like, let the bugs just kind of fly around me, and if it was a bee, it's a bee. If it stings you, it stings you. I mean, I'm not allergic, so, but- You know, for, uh, other people it may be different, but it, it's just about, like, shrinking that judgmental voice that's saying, "Keep your eyes closed. Don't focus on anything." You know, it's, it's about quieting that voice and really just, like, learning to appreciate, okay, why do I wanna open my eyes? What is it that I can gain from this experience of opening my eyes and looking at this little bug? Or, [laughs] or sometimes I'll open my eyes and I'll see a hummingbird, and hummingbirds to me signify, like, my ancestors. And, um, and so I s- I think, oh, maybe that's their way of saying hello to me today, and I wouldn't have seen that had I not opened my eyes.

Jay Shetty 1:38:33 That was an amazing description because you j-

Speaker 1:38:36 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:38:37 ... you just des- you just described how meditation's really a conversation, not a command.

Speaker 1:38:43 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:38:43 It's not a command. You're not commanding yourself to do this or do that. It's n- it's not like you have a drill sergeant in your head. You actually want to have a conversation and a dialogue to-

Speaker 1:38:54 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:38:55 ... understand and uncover yourself. And I, I always think about that, that the simplest form of meditation is having a conversation with yourself, having time-

Speaker 1:39:03 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:39:03 ... to meet yourself. And we always, we would never cancel an important meeting with someone else, but we never even schedule one with ourselves.

Speaker 1:39:12 Exactly, and I always, I always used to, um, overanalyze things, and I always used to tell myself that was a negative trait that I had, that I'm always overthinking things. But then when I started meditating, I, I started to have those overanalyzation conversations in my head, and then I started thinking, "Wow, I could go somewhere with this," you know? Like, I could expand these thoughts and, and it kind of l- gave this like... It, it turned my brain into, like, a kitchen for all of the, um, the, like, thought dinners and, and food for thoughts that I wanted to have, you know? It, and I just started expanding, and now the way that I think is just completely different, and that's cool, too.

Jay Shetty 1:40:01 Mm, yeah. No, that, the way you've just explained how we have to silence even that, you know, that trainer voice, as you said, like a personal trainer in the gym or-

Speaker 1:40:13 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:40:13 ... it's so true. It's so true because otherwise you just become subservient to this other voice. Again, your-

Speaker 1:40:20 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:40:20 ... expansive consciousness is being contained and limited-

Speaker 1:40:24 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:40:25 ... by this other voice.

Speaker 1:40:26 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:40:27 And you, and you don't get to experience it anymore, so I couldn't-

Speaker 1:40:30 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:40:30 ... agree with you more. You've, you've, you've helped me massively refi- refine that.

Speaker 1:40:34 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:40:34 And, uh, we, as monks, we would always talk about how-

Speaker 1:40:37 Thank you

Jay Shetty 1:40:37 ... you always saw the, you always saw the noise in your head just like a little monkey running around, and, and that-

Speaker 1:40:43 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:40:43 ... kind of made it playful. And so it was always the m-

Speaker 1:40:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:40:46 ... it was always the monkey mind versus the monk mind. And so the monkey was always-

Speaker 1:40:50 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:40:51 ... playful and si- and you notice it, and you don't wanna trap the monkey or hurt it or anything. You just are entertained by just how silly it can be, but you want to help organize it a little and help it a little bit, but you don't-

Speaker 1:41:03 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:41:03 ... you don't need to hurt it. And so-

Speaker 1:41:05 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:41:06 ... I, I, I, you've really helped me. Uh, I, I think my meditation's gonna be different tomorrow based on what you just said, so I'm re-

Speaker 1:41:12 Wow-

Jay Shetty 1:41:13 Yeah

Speaker 1:41:13 ... that's the best compliment.

Jay Shetty 1:41:14 [laughs] I mean it. I really mean it. I really do.

Speaker 1:41:17 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:41:18 I think, I, I think you're so right. I think you're so right. We get, we get lost always in these... We get always lost in just judging ourselves. Just somehow we get, even, even when we know we judge ourselves, we now judge ourselves for judging ourselves. It's like we find-

Speaker 1:41:34 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:41:35 Have you ever experienced that?

Speaker 1:41:36 Oh my God, every day. Uh, not, uh, not every day, but you know, it, it, it is something where I do have to catch myself sometimes daily where I, I look, sometimes I look in the mirror and I, and I find something immediately wrong with what I see, and I have to stop and say, "Okay, why did you, why did you go there with it? Why can't you look at how beautiful your hair is today or whatever, or why don't you l- think about a quality about yourself that has nothing to do with your appearance, and then, like, tell yourself how proud you are for gaining that quality?" And it's like, it's just always kind of reminding ourselves every day, and that way it gets easier over time so that I'm not looking... And sometimes it's harder than others. Sometimes, sometimes it's just easier to go in that shame spiral, you know, the shame spiral where you get onto yourself for one thing and then all of a sudden that, oh, well, because I don't like my hair, that means that my body is wrong, or because I'm not liking my body, you know, now I, I feel unlovable. And, and it just goes into that, that spiral, and the quicker you can stop that spiral from bottoming out, the quicker that you get with that moment every day where it's like now I look in the mirror, and if I see something I don't like, I'm, it's like a reflex. I just go, "Okay, what do we like?" You know? [laughs] And so, um, you just gotta, you gotta start to, in a loving and compassionate way, train your mind to remind yourself what you do love about yourself.

Jay Shetty 1:43:22 So powerful. I really hope everyone tomorrow morning is gonna practice what Demi just said. When you look in the mirror-

Speaker 1:43:27 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:43:28 ... tomorrow morning, I want you to remember what Demi just said because it's such a incredible trait that we all have where we draw these huge conclusions based on one tiny thing. So like you said, we, we draw this conclusion, "I am unlovable," based on one thing we don't like about ourselves, or-

Speaker 1:43:50 And it could be as simple as your hair

Jay Shetty 1:43:53 It can be as tiny-

Speaker 1:43:54 And, and-

Jay Shetty 1:43:54 Yeah

Speaker 1:43:54 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:43:54 It can be as tiny as a, a, a spot on your face, right? And, and you-

Speaker 1:43:59 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:43:59 ... turn that spot into, "I am never going to feel attractive," and, and you just amplify it to these great degrees, and we all do it.

Speaker 1:44:08 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:44:09 And, and I love what you said, that that's how to approach it, that when we look in the mirror, you have to, you have to nip it in the bud. You have to catch it there and th-

Speaker 1:44:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:44:17 ... then and there, because otherwise, it just gets... I was thinking about, I was talking to someone about this the other day. There was a small crack in one of the floors in, in our home, and I was saying, "Oh, I want to get it fixed today." And someone was saying to me, they said, "No, no, no, it doesn't matter. Like, it's, it's gonna be, like, years before that's an issue." And I was like, "That's my point." I was like, "I don't want the-

Speaker 1:44:37 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:44:37 ... crack to get an opportunity to get bigger and bigger and bigger. I would rather mend it today."

Speaker 1:44:44 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:44:44 And I don't think that just applies to floors. I think it applies to our lives and how we feel about ourselves and how we talk to ourselves. It applies to relationships. You may think you just had a tiny argument, but if you can solve it now, you save yourself years of headaches. So-

Speaker 1:45:00 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:45:00 ... I love that you gave everyone a practical tool to, to actually do that.

Speaker 1:45:03 Or another one is if, you might, you might think that what you have to say is not super important, but honor that voice inside of you so that when you are in a relationship, you're immediately starting out with, "This is who I am. These are my values, and this is how I want to be respected." And that way, you, like you said, you nip it in the bud. Sometimes it's, it's not about y- sometimes it's just about speaking up, too.

Jay Shetty 1:45:30 Yes. Yes, you're right. And, and that all comes back to what you were saying earlier, the confidence of your intuition. If you, if you keep ignoring it and you say, "Oh, well, that's, that's not important right now, or that's not relevant, or that's insignificant," if you keep talking to yourself in that way, that voice just gets quieter and quieter and quieter. And now, when you really need it, you can't hear it anymore.

Speaker 1:45:53 Yes, exactly.

Jay Shetty 1:45:54 So I, I think that's a beautiful full circle. Go back to what you were saying earlier. Demi, I, you know, we, we've talked a lot about, and I love that we're talking a lot about expanding consciousness because I, I think that that's not just a noble aspiration. I do believe it's, it's a root thing. It's like going to the heart of the issue, as you said, that if we don't expand our consciousness and as a whole, as, as a world, it's, we can try and solve this one area or this one area, but, but we're gonna keep kind of bashing heads to some degree. I, I wonder, what are some of the ways you think that people can expand their own consciousness if they're listening and saying, "I, I want to know how to do that. I'm open to that"? Where, where would they start? What are some of the things? What are some of the books? I know that you've been interviewing some phenomenal people on your podcast, 4D, which you're encouraging people to live through this fourth dimension. I, I wonder, have you had any conversations or people that you'd love to introduce people to?

Speaker 1:46:53 I interviewed someone recently on my podcast named Justin Baldoni, and, um, i- that conversation with them really opened my mind because, uh, just what they had to say in relation to, um, gender norms that are placed on us, uh, at a young age, how we evolve as, uh, adults, and how we tend to carry those things from our childhood into our adult lives today. I, I thought that was so interesting. And, you know, he has a book called Man Enough. Um, a lot of the people that I'm having conversations with, you know, uh, you have a great book. And, um, I, I think reading is something that has helped expand my consciousness a lot, too. Um, and it doesn't even have to be about anything, um, all that intense. It can just be, just reading is good for your mind. Um, journaling is something that's really helped me because sometimes my thoughts race so fast that, um, that it's hard to... I don't know. It's good to just get it out, and then I can go back to it and look at it later. Um, so yeah, reading, journaling, and, and like I said, meditating. Meditating is really important, but find out what meditation works for you.

Jay Shetty 1:48:17 Mm.

Speaker 1:48:17 Because it is different for everybody.

Jay Shetty 1:48:19 Yeah, those are great, great insights. Reading, journaling, of course, meditation, as you said before, and we talked about at length. Uh, I, I couldn't agree with you more. I remember I was just speaking to a friend. I was, I was reorganizing my bookshelf, and he was saying, "How much have you been reading recently?" And I s- I said, "I remember a year in my life where I read a book a day for a year," and, and it j- you know, it was a-

Speaker 1:48:41 Wow

Jay Shetty 1:48:42 ... it was an incredible year. And I was just saying to him how much I miss it. That was around, I think that was around four or five years ago I did that, and I've been tr- I've been reading, I've been trying to read about a book a month at the moment, but I've been really trying to find things that I'm fascinated by. And it's not about, I'm not trying to make it about a numbers game. I'm not saying that. So anyone who's-

Speaker 1:49:00 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:49:00 ... listening or watching, this isn't a competition of how many books you read, and that's not what I'm emphasizing. What I'm emphasizing is what Demi's saying, is just to really expand your consciousness, you need to let your consciousness connect dots in lots of-

Speaker 1:49:13 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:49:13 ... different areas. And so when I read, I don't just try and read from one genre. I try and read from lots of different genres and lots of different authors and backgrounds because then my consciousness has the ability to connect dots that it finds interesting. Thank you so much for watching that video. If you enjoyed it, here's another one I think you'll love.

Cameo 1:49:33 It didn't come from the wardrobe or the facelift or sports car or whatever. It came from within you, and so you stop looking out there for it