Jay & Radhi: The BIGGEST LIE About “The Right Time” to Have Kids

Speaker 0:00 I do not want kids Being a mom is amazing. It's the best thing I'm 33, and I have no kids

Radhi Devlukia 0:07 Being a mom is literally the best thing ever

Speaker 0:10 Do not have kids And I would argue it's one of the most important decisions- You wanna have kids?

Radhi Devlukia 0:14 No.

Speaker 0:14 And I have no kids Most important decisions, who you decide to have or share- When are you going to have kids?

Radhi Devlukia 0:19 There's no benefit to asking that question. Saying that to someone who is really struggling, it can end up triggering something so deeply

Speaker 0:25 Do I know how my life is gonna change, and am I ready to embrace that change?

Radhi Devlukia 0:30 The older that you get as a woman, the more difficult it is to conceive

Speaker 0:33 The pressure of having a child financially is actually one of the biggest factors in why people are scared of having children. This is something that I hear a lot when we're back

Speaker 0:45 in London-

Radhi Devlukia 0:45 Yeah, for sure

Speaker 0:46 ... is when are you going to have kids?

Radhi Devlukia 0:49 Yep. It's a big question, especially after you hit 30s. It's, uh, something, especially the aunties out there, they, um, just really like knowing-

Speaker 0:59 [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 0:59 ... for some reason, or they want, they want to know what's happening. Uh, and I think a lot of people struggle with it. My friends really do, especially my friends who are not even a- in a relationship at the age of 35 or f- you know, in their late 30s and they haven't got into a relationship, and then they're really scared about the idea of when am I gonna have children? And then the pressure of people asking on top of that, I think more so for women than men, it's just really ... It can be really difficult for so many people to hear that regularly and not know when it's gonna happen for them.

Speaker 1:30 Yeah, talk to me about that pressure because I, I think you're right, women get it more than men.

Radhi Devlukia 1:33 Definitely

Speaker 1:34 And they hear it a lot more often from a lot more people. So talk to me a bit about that pressure because I may not even understand it fully because that's not really something that-

Radhi Devlukia 1:43 Totally

Speaker 1:43 ... men get hit with that often.

Radhi Devlukia 1:45 Yeah. I think, you know, biologically, look, it is true, the older that you get as a woman, the more difficult it is to conceive. And so I think biologically women have this internal clock that is ticking, and whether you're unsure about having children or whether you really want them, you feel it internally that your body is aging and what that means because you've been told that from such a young age. That as a woman, when you, you have to have children, the ideal age to have children is in your 20s. As soon as you hit your 30s, it's gonna get harder. And so I think you feel it in your body, and you notice changes that are happening which lead you to believe that it's come, kind of getting to the end of the time period where it's gonna be easy for you to conceive. And then I think for a lot of women who aren't even in relationships yet, it's like, "God, I have to find my partner, and I have to get pregnant within the next two years," or whatever it is. Yeah, I think it's a mixture of media and a mixture of people around you, and the reality of the situation being unfortunately that we do have a body clock.

Speaker 2:44 Yeah. And I did some research before the episode, and it said that women born in 2007 are projected to have their first child by age 35 versus 31 for their mothers.

Radhi Devlukia 2:56 Yes. So true

Speaker 2:58 And girls born in 2025 may not reach that milestone until age 36

Radhi Devlukia 3:02 Mm.

Speaker 3:03 And so it's going up gradually. And so anyone who's feeling alone or anyone who is thinking, "Oh, gosh, like, maybe it's just me," the truth is it's not just you. It is the trend, and I think often we don't look at statistics as a way of understanding we're not alone because the trends show what everyone around you is doing-

Radhi Devlukia 3:21 Mm

Speaker 3:21 ... even if you feel everyone around you is having kids, right? I think a lot of people look around, they go, "Well, everyone on Instagram has kids, and all my friends have kids, and everyone does. It's just me. I'm the one who's been left behind. Either I don't have kids, or I haven't found my person yet." And the reality is the stats show no, you're not alone at all. Pretty much everyone around you is getting older-

Radhi Devlukia 3:42 Yeah

Speaker 3:42 ... is having kids older, and that's much more normal. And I think when you understand that, it kinda frees you up from some of that pressure. But what's, what's the different kind of pressure that people get from, like, family, society,

Speaker 3:54 friends? Like, like, have you noticed any patterns or differences in what you hear and ... I think there's two things that I find really interesting. The first is no one ever asks the question, do you want kids?

Radhi Devlukia 4:04 Yes

Speaker 4:05 Or you will maybe from a friend or someone you're very close to, but generally people will skip that question. It's really strange because when you ask the question, when are you having kids, it's an assumption that people want kids, that people can conceive and have kids-

Radhi Devlukia 4:20 Yeah, that's the hardest

Speaker 4:20 ... which today we'll talk about that. That's a whole nother area. It's quite an insensitive and unthoughtful question. I- it comes with good intent.

Radhi Devlukia 4:29 Mm.

Speaker 4:29 People are not ... People are excited. People are whatever. But if you look at it in reality, it doesn't make sense as a question. It's like saying to someone like, "Uh, when are you gonna start a business?" And the person's like, "I'm happy in my job. Like, I, I don't wanna start a business."

Radhi Devlukia 4:43 Mm.

Speaker 4:43 Or like, "When are you gonna leave your job and find a better job?" And it's like, "I don't know if I need to leave my job. Like, why, why are you assuming that?" But we assume everyone wants kids, can have kids, and is excited about that.

Radhi Devlukia 4:57 I think the biggest part of it is the insensitivity about it, and I know people don't mean it in that way. But I think nowadays we're all aware that more people than not are having miscarriages or not being able to conceive. I think it's, like, one in five women have miscarriages, and so we all have girlfriends, at least, like, five women in our life that one of them will probably have had a miscarriage. And I think now we are aware of that when people DM me or comment on stuff, or even the craziest thing is I will sometimes have videos where a little bit of my belly's popping out a bit or, like, maybe I've just eaten and I'm a bit bloated, and people are, "Oh my gosh, are you pregnant?" And I'm like, first of all, okay, I actually don't mind if people think I'm pregnant based on how I look, but I always think if someone's saying that to someone who is really struggling to conceive, to have a baby, not sure what they're doing, it can end up triggering something so deeply. So it's kind of like what is the benefit of me asking when are you having children, and what's the benefit of me writing it in a public forum questioning whether that person is pregnant or not? 'Cause if they are pregnant and they haven't told you, they probably don't want to tell you, and that's the reality of it. People go through different phases in their life where they really want children, and then they're not sure, and then they're trying to figure themselves out and feel like it's not the right time. And there's so many parts of life where you can... feel a different way about something. But I always struggle with the idea of, oh, you know, are we doing it in the wrong way, or are we doing it in the right way? Like, yes, I think, you know, health aspect of it, we are, it is better to have children when you're younger according to your health. But then when I think about it with mindset, if I had had children when I was in my 20s, I'm not sure I would've been a version of myself that has space to have a child, look after it in the right way, create the life that I would've wanted to for that child. But I would've h- I would have done that because of pressure of people telling me that the 20s is when you should do it. And then I speak to women who are in their late 30s having children. They say, "I'm so glad, I'm so grateful that I had children at a later age. I now can spend so much time with them. I figured my life out. I've spent time with my partner. I feel like I'm in a stable place financially. All of these things are in place for me to really bring up this child how I want to do." And so I think there's so many, obviously not, there is no right, right answer, but I do think it's difficult going through, I'm sure anyone listening, I don't know whether you've been through this, but in my 20s I thought growing up I would have both my children, or the two children that I thought I wanted, in my 20s. No, like, I was gonna be a young mom in my 20s that was pregnant, looking cute, you know, just, uh, getting, like, fit after my pregnancy. You know, I had a vision of what that looked like. And then my life changed dramatically. Our life changed dramatically, and I felt like I went through a whole journey of really trying to having to figure out so much more about myself to feel even comfortable about inviting another soul into my life that I then would be responsible for, and I would, would want to give them the best of myself. And so I think it's, it's really hard for women, honestly.

Speaker 7:53 Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 7:53 I think it really is.

Speaker 7:54 Yeah. You, you brought up two really good things. I think

Speaker 7:58 one part is the idea that when you ask the question, "When are you having kids?" If that person's just had a miscarriage, it's really, really tough to face-

Radhi Devlukia 8:08 Oh

Speaker 8:09 ... that question, and they try and smile and-

Radhi Devlukia 8:12 Oh, really?

Speaker 8:13 ... hold a s- hold a, you know, positive demeanor in that environment, and then they feel pain afterwards. Or let's say they're going through IVF treatment, which so many of our friends are as well-

Radhi Devlukia 8:23 Yeah

Speaker 8:23 ... and so many people we know, and it's not going that well right now. Again, it's become an emotional reaction for that person. And then there's the person who's like, "Well, I don't wanna have kids at all." Now, it may start a debate that they don't really wanna have because they don't need to convince you or anyone else. And so those first two, though, I've seen that be so hard. I've had so many friends in the last 24 to 36 months who've gone through one, two, three, five rounds of IVF.

Radhi Devlukia 8:53 So many.

Speaker 8:53 Had multiple miscarriages. And whenever that question or conversation comes up at family dinner or anywhere, it's so emotionally difficult for that individual.

Radhi Devlukia 9:03 Mm.

Speaker 9:04 And just, just to be really clear, me and Radhi have not gone through either of those things. And, and just to be-

Radhi Devlukia 9:09 No

Speaker 9:09 ... you know, totally transparent and honest, we haven't. But for anyone who is going through that, I've had so many of my friends come up to me and just say like, "Dude, I just, I'm struggling."

Radhi Devlukia 9:19 Struggling.

Speaker 9:20 This is men, too, like, coming up to me-

Radhi Devlukia 9:21 Yeah

Speaker 9:22 ... and just being like, "My wife's just been through this. I'm just trying to be there for her, but then all her friends keep saying like, 'When are you having kids, and what's going on?'" And then she's coming to me, and it's, it's a real thing. And so I, I'm really glad that you raised that point because I think it's often forgotten or missed. And the other thing I was gonna say is I think one of the biggest challenges with humans is that we try to time things perfectly. Now, the biological clock is real. Totally understand. Let's, let's start with that foundation. But the idea of when are you having kids is the wrong question. I think the right questions are actually do I know how my life will change-

Radhi Devlukia 10:01 Mm

Speaker 10:02 ... when I have a child, and am I ready to embrace that change?

Radhi Devlukia 10:07 Right. Right. Right.

Speaker 10:07 Now, the truth is you won't know fully how your life is gonna change. So I know parents will say, "Jay, you never know, your life will change in the most incredible ways and crazy ways." I agree with that, too. I don't know. I don't have kids. But what I can observe is am I prepared for the basics of that change? Do I know? It's like changing anything in life. Am I aware of how my sleep patterns may change, how my social life may change, how my relationship with my partner may change? I was looking into the statistics about this because I was talking to a client of mine, and they were telling me that after they had their firstborn, him and his wife went through the toughest part of their marriage.

Radhi Devlukia 10:46 Oh, wow.

Speaker 10:47 And when I looked into the statistics, it showed that most men feel after their partner gives birth that they feel unloved, they feel like a second priority-

Radhi Devlukia 11:01 [laughs] They are

Speaker 11:01 ... and they feel un-thought about.

Radhi Devlukia 11:03 Yeah.

Speaker 11:03 And that's also why the trends show that more men are likely to cheat at that time-

Radhi Devlukia 11:08 No way

Speaker 11:09 ... when, either when their wife are pregnant or when their wife gives birth bec- again, I'm not condoning this, I'm just talking about the statistics

Radhi Devlukia 11:15 Oh, right

Speaker 11:15 ... because that's when they feel neglected. So the truth is, if you're prepared for that, you'll be less surprised and caught off guard.

Radhi Devlukia 11:23 Right.

Speaker 11:23 Right? When I think about us having kids, I'm like, "Got it. Radhi, I'm gonna go lower on the list."

Radhi Devlukia 11:29 Yeah.

Speaker 11:30 And that's a reality, not just for me, but for every man in my position who has that situation. And if I'm mentally prepared for it, I'm actually better ready to deal with it rather than I'm, like, looking at you going, "Well, why, what's going on?" Like, "Why am I not your priority anymore?"

Radhi Devlukia 11:43 Mm.

Speaker 11:43 "You don't love me anymore." When, in reality, of course your energy's gonna go towards this helpless little baby-

Radhi Devlukia 11:49 [laughs]

Speaker 11:50 [laughs] who, who actually needs it, and all I'm saying is, like, treat me like the baby. I'm ti- I'm, I'm not the baby anymore.

Radhi Devlukia 11:55 Yeah.

Speaker 11:56 And so I think there's a lot to be said for-Not asking the question of when's the right time, because I don't think you'll ever know when it's the right time, but it's do I know how my life is gonna change, and am I ready to embrace that change?

Radhi Devlukia 12:09 Mm.

Speaker 12:09 So my life is gonna change, but I'm not gonna be your top priority. Am I ready for that? My life's gonna change by I will have sleepless nights. Am I ready for that? My life's gonna change with I may not be able to have the freedom on the weekends that I have right now. Am I ready for that? And those are better questions to prepare me, because the question of when should we have kids doesn't really prepare me.

Radhi Devlukia 12:28 Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I agree. I do think that,

Radhi Devlukia 12:31 um, the process is never going to be the same and never going to be understood as fully f- by a man as it is obviously for a woman, because a woman has to literally carry that child inside of her-

Speaker 12:44 For sure

Radhi Devlukia 12:44 ... for those nine months. And so I think there's always gonna be slight disconnects between how men perceive the situation and how women do. But I remember I was thinking about how, um, you know, I remember at the beginning when we first met, you really didn't want to have children, or, like, you were- you weren't sure whether you did, and it was so-

Speaker 13:01 That was right at the beginning

Radhi Devlukia 13:02 ... that was right at the beginning, yeah.

Speaker 13:03 I'd just come out the monastery and at that time.

Radhi Devlukia 13:05 Exactly, and your mindset was like that. And I read this quote actually that I thought for anybody thinking of not having children, I thought it was really well put. It said, "Motherhood is not- motherhood is not the only way to mother. You can mother a movement, a garden, a dream, or a community."

Speaker 13:18 Mm.

Radhi Devlukia 13:18 And I remember when we first met back, way back when, you had said you wanted to help so many more people, and you weren't sure whether you wanted to put all your emphasis onto one person or into one child. And so many people recently that I have met, or actually not so many, quite a few people that I've met recently have said that they don't want to have children because they feel they are saving the child from all the pain that's happening in the world. They don't think this environment is an environment to bring children into the world. I know there's a big following of that philosophy from friends that we know, and even in s- specific communities, and I was wondering whether you'd heard that or what your thoughts were on it.

Speaker 13:56 Yeah. I think, I think for me it was very much a feeling of I feel I get to express a lot of paternal energy-

Radhi Devlukia 14:03 Yeah, totally

Speaker 14:05 ... and I know it's not the same, so I'm not trying to say it's the same. But I experience a lot of paternal energy in my work. I feel like I'm a parent to lots of people-

Radhi Devlukia 14:13 Mm

Speaker 14:14 ... and so that part of my life is quite full.

Radhi Devlukia 14:17 I mean, if you think about Radhanath Swami, who is a spiritual teacher, and all the spiritual teachers that are out there who are not in relationships and don't have children, all they do is father people-

Speaker 14:26 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 14:26 ... or mother people, and are there for them through every type of problem and supporting them, caring for them. So I can totally understand how people could feel like that.

Speaker 14:35 That was how I used to feel-

Radhi Devlukia 14:37 Yeah

Speaker 14:37 ... for sure. And, and I think there's a lot of people now who are fearful of raising a child in a world with social media-

Radhi Devlukia 14:45 Yeah

Speaker 14:46 ... the mental health challenges that come with it, the security and safety issues-

Radhi Devlukia 14:50 The schooling system

Speaker 14:51 ... that we're seeing in the world.

Radhi Devlukia 14:52 Yeah.

Speaker 14:53 School systems that are failing children, the worry with, I mean, that's just, like, war. Like, there's, there's just so much-

Radhi Devlukia 15:02 Mm-hmm

Speaker 15:02 ... that I think people are becoming aware of. Again, it's not lots of people, it's, it's some people that I know that are having these conversations, and, and I think all of those are valid for that person. Now, at the same time, I know people who are raising amazing kids-

Radhi Devlukia 15:15 Yeah

Speaker 15:16 ... that are gonna go on to become future leaders of the world in their areas, and I know amazing people raising beautiful children that I think will have a beautiful impact-

Radhi Devlukia 15:25 Totally

Speaker 15:25 ... on their communities and the people around them. And I know people having kids y- early who are really happy. Like, we just had Nara Smith on the podcast-

Radhi Devlukia 15:33 Yes

Speaker 15:33 ... and Nara's in her 20s, and she has, like, four kids, and she loves it. Like, she's really happy.

Radhi Devlukia 15:38 Yeah.

Speaker 15:39 And it comes with her and her husband making certain choices and what- whatever it may be, but she's happy about it. And, and I can see that when I'm with her, and she's a successful woman. She's, she's very ambitious, she's driven, but they have a happy family set up. And so I think-

Radhi Devlukia 15:55 It's funny because now people see that as, "Oh my gosh, she had kids so early."

Speaker 15:58 Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 15:58 But she hasn't had kids e- early. She, no, I don't know what's early and late, but technically back in the day, like even 20, 30 years ago, that would've been seen as a very normal age to have children. And now on social media, when you see it, it's people saying, "Wow, she's had four kids in her 20s. That is so, like, she's had them so young, so early." So it's so funny how things just change, isn't it? Constantly.

Speaker 16:21 That's a great, that's such a good point of, like, what

Speaker 16:23 is normal changes every 25 years.

Radhi Devlukia 16:25 Yeah.

Speaker 16:26 And so this idea of, well, everyone's doing it is a messy metric because what everyone's doing today will be different from what everyone's doing 25 years from now-

Radhi Devlukia 16:35 So silly

Speaker 16:35 ... and different to what everyone did 25 years ago.

Radhi Devlukia 16:37 Mm.

Speaker 16:38 And so trying to do what everyone's doing, it does make life easier. There's a reason why we wanna do things at the same time as people-

Radhi Devlukia 16:45 Yeah

Speaker 16:45 ... because you can share in that experience, and I think that's important, and we need that. But if you're not ready for something, and this, this was a really interesting statistic, it said 36% of adults under 50 without kids say they're delaying parenthood because they don't think they can afford it.

Radhi Devlukia 17:02 Oh, wow.

Speaker 17:03 And that, you know, has become such a challenge. 66% of parents feel consumed by money worries versus 39% of non-parents. So-

Radhi Devlukia 17:15 That's true. Kid's expensive. [laughs]

Speaker 17:17 The pressure of having a child financially is actually one of the biggest factors in why people are scared of having children. I actually read that for someone to raise their child from age zero to 18 is going to cost anywhere between 233,000 to $310,000.

Radhi Devlukia 17:37 No.

Speaker 17:38 And by the way, that doesn't include college-

Radhi Devlukia 17:39 Wow

Speaker 17:40 ... because 18's before college. So if you add tuition fees if your child's gonna go to college, you're adding potentially another 30, 50, 100, $200,000 depending on where they go. And so that's a incredible amount of money.

Radhi Devlukia 17:54 That's a lot.

Speaker 17:54 It's a lot of money. And so that has become a real factor, and I've heard that from a lot of people-

Radhi Devlukia 18:00 Mm

Speaker 18:00 ... saying, "We really wanna have another kid, but-We just don't know if we can afford it

Radhi Devlukia 18:04 Yes

Speaker 18:04 And then again, if that person gets asked, "When are you having kids?" It triggers financial insecurity, it triggers economic uncertainty, it triggers a feeling of not being worthy enough-

Radhi Devlukia 18:15 Yeah

Speaker 18:15 ... not being good enough. Like, I don't think we realize how that question, like you said, it affects your belief about your appearance. Imagine someone's trying to lose weight, gain muscle, strengthen, and someone says, "You look like you're pregnant." Like, that, that affects them-

Radhi Devlukia 18:30 Totally

Speaker 18:30 ... on that perspective. If someone's struggling to pay their bills and having a child, you ask them when are you gonna have kids, they're now worried about-

Radhi Devlukia 18:38 Especially if they really want children and they're trying to figure it out financially, and they really want them, but they're finding it difficult to even think of how that would be possible

Speaker 18:45 Yeah. And I think we do often, I do sometimes think we- we're living in an overly sensitive world, but I think this, and- and I'm one of those people who say sometimes we're being overly sensitive about everything these days.

Radhi Devlukia 18:55 Yes.

Speaker 18:55 Like, everything's a thing. But this is one of those ones that I think it's so interconnected to your personal belief about yourself, your self-worth and your finances, your emotional wellbeing because of miscarriages, IVF, and everything else-

Radhi Devlukia 19:10 Yeah

Speaker 19:10 ... that's going on. It is one of those things that I think we should be sensitive about with others-

Radhi Devlukia 19:16 Definitely

Speaker 19:16 ... because it can really make you distant in that relationship.

Radhi Devlukia 19:20 I also think sometimes people ask because they don't know what else to ask about people's life, and they think it's a natural thing to speak about.

Speaker 19:27 It is, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 19:27 I think it's more a cultural thing as well, because I actually think that a lot of people ask because they don't know what else to ask in a situation. They meet someone, they've talked about the weather, they've talked about, "Oh, okay, so now when are you guys having kids?" And I think-

Speaker 19:41 [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 19:41 [laughs] I think it's, uh, weirdly a very natural cultural thing to do in certain settings, and it can come from a place of worry, it can come from a place of, you know, interest or excitement, but at the same time, I'm like, if you're not the person that's gonna be looking after my child in some capacity-

Speaker 19:59 [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 19:59 ... and it's not gonna affect your life, you do not need to know.

Speaker 20:03 [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 20:03 Like, there is zero... Unless you're my mum, who's gonna have to look after me, unless you are somewhat in relation or going to be there physically helping me during that time, there is absolutely no need for you to know when I'm going to be having that child. And if I want you to know, I will definitely send you a message-

Speaker 20:22 [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 20:23 ... or a voice note. But if I don't, and I don't openly tell you, and this is probably how many people feel, no needs.

Speaker 20:30 [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 20:30 No needs. There's no benefit to asking that question.

Speaker 20:33 Yeah, yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 20:33 There is actually, I will, I- I'll say that again. There is no benefit of asking that question because if they know, they would've already told you, and if they don't know, you're making them anxious in some way. So actually, zero benefit in asking when are you having children. That's my conclusion of this whole situation.

Speaker 20:46 [laughs] I love it. I love it. Yeah. And, and men somehow get to deflect or tell the truth, which is, I'd always say, "It's Radhi's body, it's when she wants." Like, you know, that-

Radhi Devlukia 20:54 Yeah

Speaker 20:55 ... that's-

Radhi Devlukia 20:55 Men also can, you know, get someone preg- g- men can, men have, like, unlimited fertility. There are, like, 60-year-old men or 70-year-old men that are getting women pregnant, so I think there's less of a, you're never gonna feel bad about it unless your wife is going through something. It's never gonna be a trigger- triggering question really to a man.

Speaker 21:12 Yeah. We all want to feel better, to have more energy and more focus

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Radhi Devlukia 22:44 Mm

Speaker 22:44 ... it's seen that way. Like, if you're a parent, you're doing the right thing, th- you're normal, you're doing something good. And I actually found some quotes from Tracee Ellis Ross on rejecting societal scripts. This was in The New York Times. And she said, "It undermined my sense of worth and joy until I realized it was somebody else's idea."

Radhi Devlukia 23:04 Mm.

Speaker 23:04 "I do not believe that my life is unworthy because I don't have children. I do not believe that my life is unworthy because I don't have a partner."

Radhi Devlukia 23:12 Mm.

Speaker 23:12 "I mother all over the place," you were saying this. "I do very valued things in the world for people I love." That's a really interest- like,

Speaker 23:20 you know, going back to that point that you made of people feel alone if they don't do that.

Radhi Devlukia 23:27 I do think, though, when you, when you think about all spiritual paths, religious paths, when you think about evolution and how they talk about the human body, there is such a strong, there is no question of, in any of those things, whether men and women were made to procreate. Think about Adam and Eve, think about any of the scriptures, any of the religions that you've seen. Everything does lead to you are here to procreate, even as our, if- if you're thinking about-

Speaker 23:57 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 23:57 ... take God out of this, how the human body has been created, it does show towards-That is why we are here

Speaker 24:05 That's survival. I mean, that's survival

Radhi Devlukia 24:06 ... that is survival. And so it's interesting. I don't have the answer for it, but when I do think about it in that way, it's kind of in- it's interesting to think about, okay, so how come we have gone towards this path of saying we shouldn't be doing something that our body's made for, that if you believe in a certain religion or a specific path, they are saying that is what our essence is, is to create a beautiful child in this world to help other people, whatever that notion is. But that there's such a strong wave going against it, which, uh, is, it's just interesting because I struggle with that-

Speaker 24:37 I-

Radhi Devlukia 24:37 ... the idea of both

Speaker 24:38 I think everyone today is looking at their inner child and then thinking about having a child, right?

Radhi Devlukia 24:46 Mm. It's strange.

Speaker 24:46 Like, you're, you're almost so aware of how much therapy, healing, and work you need-

Radhi Devlukia 24:52 Right

Speaker 24:52 ... that you feel inadequate and unqualified.

Radhi Devlukia 24:54 You feel like a child having a child.

Speaker 24:55 Correct.

Radhi Devlukia 24:55 Yeah.

Speaker 24:56 Like, you literally feel like, "I haven't even figured out what's going on here. How am I meant to figure out what's going on there?"

Radhi Devlukia 25:01 I'm sure there's a lot of unworthiness that plays into it. Like, when you, if you don't feel good in yourself, you think, "How am I gonna do that to a child?" And then at this, and on the flip side, we've spoken about this before, that there are so many couples who think having a child will help their relationship.

Speaker 25:16 Oh my gosh. Uh, we have to talk about this.

Radhi Devlukia 25:18 Yeah.

Speaker 25:18 That's why I'm so glad you raised that.

Radhi Devlukia 25:19 And that's really interesting 'cause I think there's one side where people don't feel prepared enough, and I think I've gone on that side a lot where I'm like, "God, I need to be way better before I have a child." And then there's this other side, and thinking whether you- whether you're gonna mess the child up. Like, there's so many things that have gone through my mind that have stopped me. And then there's this other s- group of people who really strongly believe that having a child will fix them-

Speaker 25:42 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 25:42 ... or the pain that they've been through as a child. Or, you know, my friends, I've, uh, got a lot of friends who were raised by single moms, and it was really interesting, their mindset was really similar. And not saying this is for everyone, but my friends who had this, where they fundamentally believe them having a child breaks the cycle so that they could give the love that they didn't receive. Like, having this-

Speaker 26:01 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 26:01 ... family set up will make up for what they lacked.

Speaker 26:05 Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 26:05 And then the couples who are really struggling and decide that having children will actually be the bridge between them-

Speaker 26:12 Yes, yes

Radhi Devlukia 26:12 ... and it will help, will help bridge the gap between them that has been created.

Speaker 26:16 Yeah, that was the advice that so many of my friends got-

Radhi Devlukia 26:19 Really?

Speaker 26:19 ... when they were struggling in their relationships, which was like, "Have a kid, it will solve it." And it actually did the opposite. Those people ended up becoming, getting divorced, or after, after having the kid too.

Radhi Devlukia 26:30 Yeah.

Speaker 26:30 And so now you have a kid, which makes it harder, or their relationship got worse because now you had more responsibilities.

Radhi Devlukia 26:36 Mm.

Speaker 26:37 And I think that's what doesn't make sense, like, and the man felt even less of a priority, so how is it ever gonna get better? So on all of those levels, it actually made it harder. Now, a kid can be great, it's not like it can't, but that can't be your Hail Mary. Like-

Radhi Devlukia 26:51 No

Speaker 26:51 ... that can't be the thing, like, let's create life in order to save this.

Radhi Devlukia 26:55 It definitely ties them together.

Speaker 26:56 It's a lot of pressure to that perso- uh, to that kid.

Radhi Devlukia 26:59 Yeah, it's a pressure on the kid, and I think there's a difference between creating connection and creating a tie with someone.

Speaker 27:04 Yeah. Wow.

Radhi Devlukia 27:05 They think the child can create a tie. There's so many things that can create ties to people. Okay, we've got a house together.

Speaker 27:10 Yeah.

Radhi Devlukia 27:11 That's a tie together.

Speaker 27:11 We share a bank balance.

Radhi Devlukia 27:12 Yeah, that's a tie together. A child, yes, of course, there's an emotional connection, but the emotional connection is actually to the child. The, it's not necessarily to the partner. That creates just another tie to keep you strung together. But I don't know whether that action, if not done consciously and as a partnership trying to connect each other and be better with each other in order to create this child-

Speaker 27:34 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 27:34 ... whether that creates a connection or just a tie.

Speaker 27:37 I love that point. That's such a great point. And I was thinking about as you were saying that, yeah, for those people who are told, like, have a kid to save your relationship, what ended up happening was they lost the relationship, and now the kid was stuck in the middle of a bad relationship.

Radhi Devlukia 27:54 Yeah.

Speaker 27:54 You, you know, it, it only creates more trauma and pain for everyone.

Radhi Devlukia 27:57 Yeah, in the world.

Speaker 27:58 And so that shouldn't be the kinda last resort or the, the hope.

Radhi Devlukia 28:03 No.

Speaker 28:03 And, you know, then you've got this innocent child that's dealing with the fallout and the stress and the panic that comes from it, and it makes harder for both parents to move on, whether it's in future relationships or whatever it may be, that because now they have that. And, and-

Radhi Devlukia 28:17 Still got that tie, yeah

Speaker 28:18 ... yeah, still got that tie.

Radhi Devlukia 28:19 Forever.

Speaker 28:19 And, and it's, and it's really, really hard because the challenge is when you marry someone, you don't really know how much they're gonna change and grow, and you have no clue. Like, it is such, it is such a, I don't wanna say the word gamble, but it is to some degree-

Radhi Devlukia 28:35 It is a gamble

Speaker 28:36 ... because you meet someone at a certain stage in your life, you create life with them, and then 10 years on, you realize that they had trauma, a mental health challenge. They have something that happens to them, and everything changes.

Radhi Devlukia 28:49 Yes.

Speaker 28:50 And so you can't plan this perfectly either. You can't say, like-

Radhi Devlukia 28:54 [laughs]

Speaker 28:54 ... "Oh yeah, we'll have a kid when things are perfect." It, it doesn't work like that either. So there's no right advice or wrong advice. Or, and, and I'm not trying to give any advice here, I'm just trying

Speaker 29:02 to say that there's, there's a reality to this where we're all just living life-

Radhi Devlukia 29:06 I know

Speaker 29:06 ... and you're adapting as it goes along, and you're not gonna get everything right in perfect order. And it's better to be able to react and adapt and be flexible than it is to think I'm gonna get everything perfect and avoid all this stuff.

Radhi Devlukia 29:23 Definitely.

Speaker 29:24 So even when we're like, "Oh, I'm not worthy enough to have a child," the truth is you'll never feel worthy.

Radhi Devlukia 29:28 Mm.

Speaker 29:28 You are gonna make mistakes. It's probably true that your child's gonna, you know, end up with a few things that you said that-

Radhi Devlukia 29:34 Yeah, you might mess them up a little bit

Speaker 29:35 ... a little bit. It will happen.

Radhi Devlukia 29:37 [laughs]

Speaker 29:37 It's probably better to assume and then try your best-

Radhi Devlukia 29:41 Right, right

Speaker 29:41 ... than it is to think I'm gonna avoid anything, and then it's like you end up putting bubble wrap around your kid, but then that bubble wrap suffocates them.

Radhi Devlukia 29:51 Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 29:52 Right? And it's like, so, so-

Radhi Devlukia 29:53 Exactly

Speaker 29:53 ... it doesn't make any sense. Like, you're trying to protect it, but the same thing that you think's gonna protect it is what hurts the kid.

Radhi Devlukia 29:58 Mm.

Speaker 29:59 And it, and it hurts you, rather than going, "You know what? I'm gonna make some mistakes. I'm gonna try my best. But yeah, maybe they are gonna hear me-... shout and yell a couple of times. Maybe they are gonna see me stressed and tired, because that's life.

Radhi Devlukia 30:11 Mm.

Speaker 30:12 You know, if, a- and, and again, we don't wanna end up in a position where we're being neglectful, but I think there has to be some grace and reality to what it means.

Radhi Devlukia 30:19 Definitely.

Speaker 30:21 I think one of the really interesting areas is that women in the workplace or entrepreneurs, they're building a career for themselves. We talked about how the financial struggle is making it harder for couples to think about kids. But for women especially, they have to go on maternity leave.

Radhi Devlukia 30:36 Mm-hmm.

Speaker 30:36 They'll take some time out. Not all organizations and companies have great maternity leave, so you may not even get that long. You may take unpaid leave, which again financially impacts you. If you're an entrepreneur, your business gonna stall, stop, or at least slow down, and then you go back to the workplace and you feel like you've gone behind, right? Whether you've taken nine months out, whether you've taken six months out, whether you've taken four months out, you're catching up, and it can be really, really hard.

Radhi Devlukia 31:03 Mm.

Speaker 31:04 What, what have your thoughts been on that, on the idea of, like, having to slow down career?

Radhi Devlukia 31:09 Yeah.

Speaker 31:09 Because you, you know, you, last year you launched a book. You have your own podcast. You've got so many exciting things going on. When you think about kids and how to balance it with that, how do you look at that?

Radhi Devlukia 31:18 Yeah, I really struggle with the idea because I know I made a decision and, well, at least I think this is the decision I want to make, is that if I ha- if we have children, I would want to be able to look after the child fully, and I'd have loved to have help from other people to help look after myself. But I know that I would want to look after the child, and so that comes with a lot of, you know, there's so much you have to think about. That would mean I would have to have full focus on this child. I would have to stop doing a lot of the things that I am doing because realistically, I, yes, you can do a lot of different things, but can you do them as well? Probably not. If I'm trying to put full focus into raising a child, probably can't keep up with all the work that I'm doing. And so I think, you know, sacrifice comes with such a negative connotation to it, but I actually think it's can be such a beautiful thing, where different times in your life you see yourself prioritizing different things. And so if I think that's how I'm trying to see it instead, where the priority lies here, that means that, that I may not be able to do as much, but I can still probably p- preplan. You've got nine months to plan and figure out how am I going to financially figure this out, figure it out with my work, figure it out with my

Radhi Devlukia 32:32 physical body, how am I gonna look after myself? Whatever those other priorities are, I do think you have to decide because, you know, I think there's this big notion that, yeah, women can do it all. Of course, we can do it, but should you be at that time where your body's trying to heal, where you're, where you've got a new little thing that's come into your life that you're trying to nurture and look after? And so, yes, I'm sure women can do it all, but I don't know whether we should be doing it all. And I think being okay with that, and it's, e- everything you said, it's preparation. Preparing my mind that maybe I won't be able to do this, this, and this while, for the first year of this baby's life, and that's okay. Because what I am doing is nurturing, creating, and pouring all my energy into creating a beautiful child. And so I think it's the prioritization and the preparation in your mind of being okay with what could happen so it's not a shock, and then you don't end up feeling really depressed afterwards-

Speaker 33:27 Yeah

Radhi Devlukia 33:27 ... that I thought my life was gonna be all these things. I was gonna work out at 7:00 AM. I was gonna feed the child at 12:00. I was gonna do all my work from 12:00 to 6:00. I was gonna put the baby to bed at this time. It's like, mm, I'm not sure that's how it can be. And so preparation and, and being realistic with that preparation I think is really important. But then again, I've never been through it. I've just seen it. So, um, I can say all this, and I'll be a hot mess after.

Speaker 33:49 [laughs]

Radhi Devlukia 33:49 Who knows? Who knows?

Speaker 33:51 Yeah. And I, I wanted to share some real-world voices. This was via Business Insider, and a lady named Viviana had her first child at 36. She said, "I don't regret waiting. I think it was the right thing to do."

Radhi Devlukia 34:03 Mm.

Speaker 34:04 Molly had her first child at 38. She said, "It felt irresponsible to even start thinking about a baby when I was worried about paying rent and college debt."

Radhi Devlukia 34:13 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 34:14 And I just wanna remind people that when you're navigating this pressure, whichever stage you're at, whether you wanna have kids, whether you don't wanna have kids, whether you're at any point on the spectrum that me and Radhi have talked about today, you can have the conversation. We've talked about it, and this is the timeline that works for us right now. That's a great mantra to kinda repeat to yourself almost. Like, me and my partner have talked about it. This timeline works for us, and we're building a life that's right for us, even if it doesn't look like everyone else's. I think the takeaway from this conversation for me is we don't wanna live a life ticking society's boxes or expectations-

Radhi Devlukia 34:51 Mm

Speaker 34:51 ... because we end up letting ourselves down, we end up letting society down, and we'll end up letting our child down.

Radhi Devlukia 34:57 Yes.

Speaker 34:57 We've gotta go at our own timeline, and ultimately, whether you choose to have children or not, life can be fulfilling, complete, and beautiful because it's all about having that energy. If you have a space to share your maternal and paternal energy, it can be a beautiful thing.

Radhi Devlukia 35:14 Mm.

Speaker 35:15 Uh, I know so many friends that have adopted and are very happy.

Radhi Devlukia 35:17 Yeah.

Speaker 35:18 I know so many friends that don't have children, who are monks, who have just given their life to thousands of people, that are happy. And I know families that have two, three, four, five children that are really happy at different ages. And so happiness doesn't have a timeline or an age or a specific setup. Even if you look at the projection of the nuclear family in history, whether it was cereal boxes or adverts, it was always parents-

Radhi Devlukia 35:43 Yeah

Speaker 35:43 ... with a boy and a girl.

Radhi Devlukia 35:44 Yeah.

Speaker 35:45 And, like, that was seen as, like, the nuclear ideal family. It's in every advert, and that's just not the image that we need to project. We need to realize that happiness and fulfillment looks very different for different people.

Radhi Devlukia 35:57 So true.

Speaker 35:59 Great. Thanks for that.

Radhi Devlukia 36:00 Amazing.

Speaker 36:00 That was ... I learned so much. I'm so glad you brought up so many things that I hadn't even thought about. That's why I love these conversations because-

Radhi Devlukia 36:05 Yeah

Speaker 36:05 ... you went in so many directions where I was like, "Oh my God, I forgot about that," or, "We haven't talked about that before," and I learned so much. And it's helpful for me to get a good understanding from your perspective and what your friends who have had babies think because as a man, sometimes I can be distant from that, so.

Radhi Devlukia 36:21 When I realized this was the first topic that you thought of, I was like, damn, we're really getting into it.

Speaker 36:27 We are.

Radhi Devlukia 36:27 First episode out, and it's ...

Speaker 36:30 Hey, why don't you just tell them to subscribe for more so that, um, they can hear more of these conversations?

Radhi Devlukia 36:36 Jay just asked me to tell you all to subscribe for more so you can hear more of these conversations, and, um, press like and share and stuff.

Speaker 36:46 [laughs] Hey, everyone. If you loved that conversation, go and check out my episode with the world's leading therapist, Lori Gottlieb, where she answers the biggest questions that people ask in therapy when it comes to love, relationships, heartbreak, and dating. If you're trying to figure out that space right now, you won't wanna miss this conversation.

Radhi Devlukia 37:08 If it's a romantic relationship, hold hands. It's really hard to argue. It actually calms your nervous systems. Just hold hands as you're having the conversation. It's so lovely