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Jay Shetty PodcastJay Shetty Podcast

Jay-Z's Business Partner: How To Transform Your Passion Into Profit (& make MILLIONS)

In this episode, we welcome Fanatics CEO Michael Rubin: a distinguished businessman and social justice advocate known for spearheading several multibillion-dollar direct-to-consumer ventures, specifically in licensed merchandise, trading…

Michael RubinguestJay Shettyhost
Dec 18, 202344mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:58

    Introduction

    1. MR

      I don't give a [beep] about my net worth. So many people tell me, "I've got this great idea, but..." I don't wanna hear about but. Like, let's go for it. Part of being an entrepreneur is to have the courage to fail. If you're afraid to fail, you ain't gonna do shit. The global sports company, Fanatics, have you heard of it? Yeah, yeah. Founder and CEO...

    2. JS

      Michael Rubin.

    3. MR

      Welcome back, sir. I've seen death in its eyes. I've almost gone bankrupt multiple times. There are so many things that I should not have succeeded at, but I have because I, I won't quit. If you set goals that are easy to accomplish, then you're actually saying you wanna fail.

    4. JS

      Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.

    5. MR

      The bestselling author and host...

    6. JS

      The number one health and wellness podcast.

    7. MR

      On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

  2. 0:58 – 2:51

    We All Start From Somewhere

    1. JS

      I wanted to ask you, Michael, what was... You know, you're such a successful business person. What was your first ever job that you ever had in life?

    2. MR

      So for me, I think a lot of people know the story. I was a terrible student, you know, barely made it out of high school, went to college for less than a semester. Um, as bad as a student as I was, I was honestly a worse athlete. Like, I was just... I wa- wasn't coordinated. I wasn't a good athlete. The one thing I was always good at was working. Like, I loved business from the time I was a kid. So everything I remember about being young was working, so my first job was, that I can remember, was probably eight years old. I probably had, like, five different side hustles. I mean, I was selling trading cards, you know, and by the way, not to my friends, but to my friends' parents 'cause they had the money. I was... When it would snow in Philadelphia where I grew up, I would get five kids to do the snow shoveling. I would go door to door and actually sell the snow shoveling. I was selling vegetable seeds door to door. I was making stationery on the Apple II Plus and selling it. I mean, I was just, like, I was the real entrepreneur. Like, I s- it's what I was good at, it's what I liked doing, and so I had so many different jobs as an eight-year-old. But I mean, that's, like, when people say, you know, "How long you been at it?" It's crazy, 43 years. I've been doing this since I've been eight years old.

    3. JS

      Wow, and when you were doing that, was there any inspiration? Was it just you wanted money? What did you wanna buy? What were you doing with that? Like, what, what excited you about it?

    4. MR

      I, I don't think for me, even at eight years old, it was ever about money or wanting to buy things. I think it was always about doing what you're good at, and for me, uh, knowing that I wasn't good... Like, I had a lot of learning challenges. I mean, as a kid, like, I had every, you know, person to try to help me with all the things I sucked at, whether it was athletically or, you know, it was just like, I just, I wasn't good at sports, I wasn't good at school. But business was what I was good at, so I just always gravitated to that. I think that's a good thing. Like, you should always figure out how to do things that you love. You should figure out how to do things that you're good at and kinda double down on that, so that's always been my whole life.

    5. JS

      How did you know that at eight? Because I feel like most eight-year-olds today are obviously playing video games. Back then, they were probably watching TV. Maybe they were out riding a bike. Like,

  3. 2:51 – 4:50

    Pursue Your Passion for Entrepreneurship

    1. JS

      how did you know that you were good at this and-

    2. MR

      I think it's something for me I was born with. Like, I was born with that entrepreneurial hustle. I think I came out of the womb, like, just, you know, wanting to be an entrepreneur, like, just loving the hustle. And, you know, to me, you know, I've been at this a long time. I work harder than I've ever wor- worked today. I love it. It's an honor to do. It's fun. It's an opportunity. Like, I'm never tired. I'm never worn out. Like, I'm just always, I just wanna go.

    3. JS

      Yeah. Can it be learned? Can you teach people to hustle and grind and develop that mindset, or is it born with, as you are?

    4. MR

      So I think I was definitely born with it. That said, I do think, you know, for me, the way I learned is by being a sponge from people, so I'm always picking things up from different people. Like, if you just look at the diversity of people I have around me, like, I'm always taking so much learnings from them to, you know, be better at what I do, and I try to give those back. So yeah, I think you can definitely learn a lot of this stuff. Just w- you know, find people you respect, find people that you admire, find people that you wanna be like, and then, you know, take the good from them. And by the way, figure out what, what they do that you don't like and, and ignore that. Like, I see good and bad in each person. I try to take the good and learn from the bad, and same thing with me. I've got lots of bad habits. I mean, like I'm myself. That's right.

    5. JS

      Yeah, that's all I ask for. That's all I ask for. There is no judgment here. There's no... It's, it's a safe space. I just want people to be their authentic selves, and so, so please continue to be yourself. And, uh, what's... So what... I love that idea of learning from people, being a human sponge. What's the most recent or most memorable thing you think you took away from someone, a conversation, a moment, uh, something you read or heard or learned? Was there anything that kinda stuck with you?

    6. MR

      Yeah, for sure. I mean, um, look, I'm in LA for the week. I'm doing six to 10 meetings a day in my house, and you know, two of the people I met with in the last two days have been through some real challenges, and just watching the challenges that they've been through, I'm like, "Okay, I need to be that much more careful about how I conduct myself in everything that I do." So to me, I'm always taking learnings away from people. I think if you're not, like, you know, you have no chance of, like, you know, getting better at what you do. I mean, it's the, like, life is no different than sports. You just gotta keep getting better at your sport, and so to me, I keep working at everything I do.

  4. 4:50 – 7:30

    Evolution of Entrepreneurship

    1. JS

      Yeah. What, what do you think? Obviously now, like, when you started 43 years ago at eight years old, entrepreneurship wasn't as touted as this incredible opportunity.

    2. MR

      No, it wasn't touted.

    3. JS

      Yeah.

    4. MR

      It was ex- it was actually weird.

    5. JS

      Right. Yeah.

    6. MR

      Like, to be clear, like, I was a nerd at, like-

    7. JS

      Yeah

    8. MR

      ... like, that I loved business. Like, entrepreneurialism became cool really around technology. Like, I, I don't think it became cool till almost the, the... From my perspective, I think it was the, really the, the birth of the dot com era.

    9. JS

      Yeah.

    10. MR

      You know, kinda late '90s is when entrepreneurialism became cool. I think before that it was kinda nerdy and weird, so I was definitely born before it all.

    11. JS

      Yeah, and I'd say even after the financial crisis in, like, 2007, '8, like, that recession, which was... Because I grew up in the era where we still aspired to be investment bankers or consultants, so when I was at college or when I was growing up, that was seen... If you were into business, my goal was to go into that world because that's what I aspired for, whereas I think the generation after me and the one after me, they were like, "I'm not gonna go work for someone. I wanna build something on my own."

    12. MR

      I think that's amazing.

    13. JS

      Yeah.

    14. MR

      Like, for me, I love... One of the things that I'm fortunate enough to do is really, I think in a lot of ways, you know, encourage entrepreneurialism. And you know, one of our biggest businesses is the collectibles business, which is trading cards and memorabilia, and that's all about entrepreneurs. There's so many entrepreneurs in that business. It's probably the business in a lot of ways that I... I actually relate to all three of our businesses, but it's the business that's maybe the most relatable for me because I grew up selling trading cards-

    15. JS

      [laughs]

    16. MR

      ... as an eight-year-old, but also it's all about entrepreneurialism.

    17. JS

      Talk to me through that business because... So I remember, so back in London, obviously, where I grew up, I collected football stickers, right? Soccer stickers.

    18. MR

      Yeah, of course.

    19. JS

      So that's what we'd have. We'd have the big... You'd have the spread with all the Premier League clubs, and you'd collect the little stickers, and that was a big part of collectibles. How is that- ... industry evolved as technology's grown, or has it stayed the same, where people are still collecting cards and, like, Top Trumps and things like that?

    20. MR

      Yeah. Well, I'll say we got into the business about three years ago in a really significant way, and today, uh, we own Topps, which is the, you know, kind of preeminent brand in, in, in trading cards. I'd say that, you know, until our arrival in the industry little less than three years ago, I'd say there hadn't been, you know, a tremendous amount of innovation. There hadn't been a tremendous amount of marketing. You know, we kinda looked at the business and said, "Wow, like, this is such an incredible collector base, such an incredible fan base, yet it hasn't changed for, like-

    21. JS

      Mm

    22. MR

      ... decades here." And you go to a, you know, the big trading card show where there's more than 100,000 people that come to Chicago this past summer. It's called the National Trading Card Show. Yet it looks like something from 20, 30, 40 years ago. So for us, that was just, that just meant opportunity. It meant if y- you actually make innovative products, you actually really market these products, you build a better consumer experience, and bring people forward into 2023, like, what an opportunity. So for me, like, I, we do that in all of our business. Like, I lo-

    23. JS

      Yeah

    24. MR

      ... like, we love finding great opportunities, big challenges, and kinda being unrelenting

  5. 7:30 – 10:20

    A Peek into the Trading Card Business

    1. MR

      about going after 'em.

    2. JS

      Yeah. How has that changed? How has that practically changed? Like, are people still buying cards and trading and the-

    3. MR

      Yeah, physical cards are the biggest part of the business.

    4. JS

      Yeah.

    5. MR

      It's, in a lot of ways, very similar to art.

    6. JS

      So it's... Yeah.

    7. MR

      But I can tell you, like, just as one quick example, this year, you know, our team came in, and actually the CEO of our business, Mike Mahan, said, "Hey, I got a great idea. Every time a player debuts for the first time, I wanna put a patch on their jersey, and then as soon as they get done the game, I wanna pull that patch off and put it in a one-of-one trading card."

    8. JS

      Oh, that's sick.

    9. MR

      So you have the card from th- from the first... So think about for, for us, you know, maybe I grew up in the, in the Michael Jordan era.

    10. JS

      Mm.

    11. MR

      Had I had, you know, Michael Jor-

    12. JS

      Kobe for me

    13. MR

      ... or yeah, if I had Michael Jordan or, or Kobe's first one-of-one cards-

    14. JS

      LeBron, yeah

    15. MR

      ... yeah, that could be the, the most valuable keepsake that I could ever have. And so, you know, that innovation, like, for us it was really simple. Like, yeah, why would you not wanna put a patch on someone's jersey, stick it into a card, and make this a one-of-one card? But no one did that until we created it. And by the way, it's already live. We came up with the idea this past December. It was in Sh- it was live in, in April with, with all baseball players. There's gonna be 300 to 400 baseball players debut this year, you know, with this debut patch that we put into a one-of-one card. So that's just, like, one of dozens-

    16. JS

      Yes

    17. MR

      ... of examples of innovations, because you have to be aggressive. Like, we have to be great entrepreneurs. We have to push in whatever we do.

    18. JS

      Yeah, no, what I love about that, though, for everyone who's listening is I think we're stuck in this world now that believes that all innovation has to be digital or technological or virtual or some sort of, you know, AI, whereas this is, like, the most tangible, physical change. But it's still so valuable because it's what people want.

    19. MR

      Look, we're a three business there. Our first business, where we started, is what we call Fanatics Commerce. That's our merchandise business. We own Lids, the hat retailer.

    20. JS

      Yeah.

    21. MR

      We own Mitchell & Ness. Uh, we own Fanatics, which operates, you know, obviously all of the different league, you know, the NFL Shop, the NBA Store. And we sell, you know, more than $6 billion of mostly fan apparel and headwear, okay? About, um, you know, you know, more than 100 million units of merchandise a year. That's a very physical business, okay? But AI is helping us to do things more effectively.

    22. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MR

      In the collectibles business, AI is gonna help us to be more effective. And then our third business is the online sports betting and iGaming business. So, you know, for me, we still do a lot of physical things, but there's so many things in the digital world that help us to be better.

    24. JS

      Yeah. No, but I love that collaboration and thinking about it that way because sometimes the greatest value to someone is a physical change, but you're learning that through the AI.

    25. MR

      I still wanna wear my Kobe jersey.

    26. JS

      Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

    27. MR

      You know?

    28. JS

      Exactly, that's-

    29. MR

      I want my 'Bron card.

    30. JS

      Yeah, that's the same thing. I'm still buying... I support Manchester United. That's, that's my soccer team, and I'm still buying s- you know, soccer jerseys every single year, even though-

  6. 10:20 – 13:35

    The Biggest Mistake When Building a Brand

    1. JS

      uh, we were talking about people not being, entrepreneurship not being touted when you started. When you look at it today, now it's become the cool, sexy, interesting, fascinating thing for people to wanna try. It's not necessarily things people are good at, like you said you were. It's not necessarily a skill that we honor or give it the, the kudos that it deserves. What are the mistakes people are making when they think about being an entrepreneur today?

    2. MR

      Well, first of all, entrepreneurialism isn't for everybody, but if you think it's for yourself, you better go out there and try it and put your best foot forward. You know, for me, look, the biggest mistakes I see people make in building a business are kind of a couple common themes. One is, first you have, like, are you even gonna take the at bat? So many people tell me, "I've got this great idea, but..." Like, I don't wanna hear about but. Like, let's go for it. Let's... If you have an idea, you wanna do something, you know, I love the story you were just telling me before we went on here, that you came over here and, you know, you worked one place for six months, then you're like, "I wanna go out and do this," and you went out and did it. Like, part of being an entrepreneur is to have the courage to fail.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. MR

      Like, you just have to go out there and try it. And by the way, when you fail, which many times you will, you're gonna learn from that failure. You're gonna grow from that failure. You think the best... You talked about Kobe being your favorite, you know, athlete. Well, guess what? How many times did he fail, and then he got better, and he pushed through it? And so that's what being an entrepreneur is. So from my perspective, it's really all about, first and foremost, if you have something you wanna do, if you believe in it, go for it. Don't worry about whether you succeed or not. Go out and take the swing, and if, guess what? If you strike out, if you fail, just go back again. And is, he... And I know some people are gonna say, "Oh, well, he's really successful now, so it's easy to say." But I gotta tell you something, I've, like, I've seen death in its eyes. You know, I've almost gone bankrupt multiple times. You know, I've had epic failures, and every one of those led me to be better in what I do. So that's my first thing. Second thing I'd say is you need great people around you to succeed. Like, whether it's great people you're learning from, that you wanna be s- a sponge from, whether it's you build a great team to do what you do. Like, I know for Fanatics, we have 18,000 people that get up and go to bed obsessed with how do we improve the fan experience each day? But, like, I collect and work with the best people on the planet. Like, if you don't work with great people, you will fail. Like, you can't win a championship if you don't have great talent, but that talent also works, needs to work together. And then the last thing, and this will sound corny, but, like- Have fun in what you do. Like, I love what I do. I have the greatest, you know, job on the planet. I get to wake up, you know, work 18 hours a day, go to bed thinking about, you know, what's next. I dream about my, my work nearly every day. Like, I'm having work dreams all the time 'cause I'm obsessed with what I'm doing. It's like, it's, it's fun. It's like I should pinch myself, it's so awesome what I get to do.

    5. JS

      Yeah, absolutely. No, I, I love hearing that. And I think, you know what's fascinating to me as well with being an entrepreneur, you know, my story was very different to finding my way into entrepreneurship. I grew up thinking I had to have a steady job, 'cause that's how I was raised by good Indian immigrant parents-

    6. MR

      Yeah

    7. JS

      ... who made me academically astute. And so I was a straight-A student, did first class at uni. Like, I was always good at that. And then I got into a job afterwards, aft- after my own detour, and when I finally got into a job, I was just like, "This doesn't feel right." Like, this doesn't feel like this is gonna use my skills to the best of my ability. This doesn't feel like I'm gonna propel and do well and become my best version of myself. It wasn't about money or what I thought I could win at, it was I just don't feel this is gonna complete me or make me feel like I'm winning

  7. 13:35 – 14:26

    Financial Success is Loving What You Do Everyday

    1. JS

      in the way that I can.

    2. MR

      Listen, the most important thing is enjoying what you do every day.

    3. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MR

      And I'm gonna tell you something, I know a lot of people that have been really successful financially, and they're miserable. You know what? They don't love what they do every day. They're not happy. Like for me, I don't think about financial success, I think about, like, just loving what I'm doing. Now, financial success can tell you are you winning or losing. That's your report card. That's the scoreboard, right? Good financial results means you're winning, bad financial results means you're not winning in the current moment. But for me, like, I just wanna love what I do every day.

    5. JS

      I, I've, I couldn't agree with you more. I wanna wake up and do what I love every day, which is why I do this, because I get to sit down with fascinating people, pick people's minds, brains-

    6. MR

      And then we each learn from each other.

    7. JS

      Absolutely. Absolutely.

    8. MR

      And by the way, I guarantee you I'll learn, I'll leave here today having picked up some things from you, and you'll leave from here-

    9. JS

      Oh, I'm definitely gonna-

    10. MR

      ... picking up some things from me

    11. JS

      ... yeah, yeah.

    12. MR

      That's the way it works. That's the way, like, we should all be students of each other.

    13. JS

      Yeah, absolutely. Who's,

  8. 14:26 – 15:30

    You Don’t Stop Learning

    1. JS

      who's the randomest person you've learned from? I wonder, like, who's the most curious, random, intriguing person that we wouldn't expect for you to learn from? Like, not like a business mogul or a, you know, someone like that, but someone you're like, "You know what? That person, I didn't expect to learn from them, but I did." Is there someone like that comes to mind?

    2. MR

      Y- I could give you a thousand examples. I mean, I could tell you when I used to be part of the ownership group of the Philadelphia Sixers, I'd walk through the arena and I would ask lots of arena workers, "What's going on here today?"

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. MR

      You know, "What's working? What's not working?" Like, you know, you can pick up things from everybody. I could, I could walk through the street, look at what someone's wearing and say, "Hey, where'd you buy that? Is that a good... Do, do you like that? Do you not like that?" Like, I'm always asking questions. So-

    5. JS

      Yeah

    6. MR

      ... you know, for me, I, I mean, that's pretty random if you just walk up in the street and ask somebody-

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. MR

      ... you know, "Where'd you buy that? Why'd you buy it? Do you love that? What..." So I'm always picking things up. I'm watching the way trends are changing with people. I'm... Probably the most unique thing about me is the diversity of friends that I have.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. MR

      And I'm learning from the people around me every single day.

    11. JS

      Yeah, I think that's the only way you understand the pulse of human behavior, right? It's like asking questions, watching patterns. I think

  9. 15:30 – 17:10

    The Role of Pattern Recognition in Business Success

    1. JS

      pattern watching is, is an ability, whether it's an algorithm, whether it's the stock market, whether it's, you know, crypto, whatever it is for people, watching patterns is such an unbelievable skill. Would you say that's a skill that you've honed and developed and built?

    2. MR

      Well, I think it's a really important skill in business 'cause I think it's very predictive of the future.

    3. JS

      Mm.

    4. MR

      Okay?

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. MR

      So the reality is when someone comes in, and I'm interviewing a top executive for a role in one of our businesses, and they could seem great, and then I'm gonna go out, and I'm never gonna ask anybody for a reference ever. I've never asked somebody, "Hey, can you tell me who to call?" Like, that's the... You ask me for a reference on myself, I'd call each of those people and say, "Hey, I gave you as a reference. Make sure you say great things about me."

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. MR

      Right? So the reality is I'll interview somebody. The first thing I do is, is if I like 'em, as soon as they leave, I go out and I start calling people that I knew we had in common to recognize patterns.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. MR

      Okay? Because to me, 50%'s the interview and 50% is, um, what I learn behind the scenes, and that's probably the more important 50%, because someone can blow me away and then, you know, you'll find out one minute that person sucks, that person, people don't like working with them.

    11. JS

      Mm.

    12. MR

      Or you could find out that person was a little bit understated, but they're a beast. You know, they've got huge followership, um, they're super smart, they've got an unrelenting work ethic. So to me, pattern recognition is everything I use in everything that I do. By the way, I use pattern recognition when I go play blackjack with my friends, you know? There's three types of cards you're gonna get. Cards are either gonna be, you know, you're either streaking hot, you're streaking cold, or you're kind of in between. And you know, when you're cold, you should not do what sometimes I'll do if I'm misbehaved, which is be aggressive when you're cold, 'cause you got, you got a pattern going on.

    13. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    14. MR

      So you gotta recognize patterns whatever you do.

    15. JS

      I find it fascinating how super powerful entrepreneurs hire and fire and recruit and, you know, reward and retain people. What

  10. 17:10 – 21:50

    The Quest for Incredible Talent

    1. JS

      have you found... When you're interviewing someone, I feel like you must have interviewed so many people over the years for huge positions, small positions in the beginning. What are you looking for, and how are you finding out, apart from the second part, which I love, calling up people that you have in common, what are you asking, what are you looking for, and how are you making sure you find it in that very-

    2. MR

      Sure

    3. JS

      ... date-like format?

    4. MR

      So let me say first of all, and this will, I think, shock you, I still probably spend 10 to 20% of a 70 to 90-hour workweek interviewing people, okay?

    5. JS

      Wow.

    6. MR

      So I am a beast on finding great talent for within our companies, 'cause to me, you can't win without great talent.

    7. JS

      Mm.

    8. MR

      So it is probably the thing, or one of the things that I spend the most time on, is the quest for incredible talent. I'm looking for, first, does someone have the subject matter expertise and the intellect to be successful in what we want them to do? And then two, do they have the leadership skills? 'Cause generally I'm interviewing people that are either gonna work for me or someone who's gonna work for someone who I work with. So let's say the top 50 to 100 people within our, our 18,000 people. So I'm looking for people that are gonna be real leaders, um, that are gonna, you know- ... share the same values that we share. I'm looking for people that can be with us for a long period of time.

    9. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MR

      Like, I wa- I don't want people that wanna come in and be with us for three years. I want people that wanna co- like, I like people who wanna be with us and build their careers with us for maybe their entire life.

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MR

      You know, we want people that are just gonna be, you know, and also people that are gonna, like, just, they're gonna figure out how to win. They're gonna put it on their shoulders, and they're gonna be unrelenting. Like, that's my personality. Like, there are so many things that I should not have succeeded at, but I have because, like, I won't quit, okay?

    13. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MR

      And so, so I think those are some of the things that I just rambled to you that I care about.

    15. JS

      No, no, no, I, I, I love those, and I guess the thing about not quitting's really interesting, right? Because you've got this unrelenting, you can see it in the way you speak, in your eyes, like, I've just spent a few moments with you. We've never met before today, and I can fully see that it is just at the core of who you are. And you probably find that you can push people, and they may not be able to go as far every time because they may not have that same energy in them. So how have you found that balance of, like, seeing someone who you know has the potential, you know they have the skills, but it's almost like, they're like, "J- Michael, I already went seven times," and you're like, "Yeah, dude, we're gonna go 17 because I know at 17 we're gonna get there."

    16. MR

      Yeah, I think the people that are in my real inner circle, you know, I have six key executives that I work with day in and day out, the people that run my three businesses, the, the online sports betting and iGaming business, the commerce business, which is merchandise, and the collectibles business, which is trading cards and memorabilia. These businesses, and then my three corporate executives, like, they have that same mentality.

    17. JS

      Mm.

    18. MR

      I wouldn't wanna work with anyone that didn't have that-

    19. JS

      Mm-hmm

    20. MR

      ... mentality of, like, you know, 'cause they're setting the culture for the entire 18,000, you know, employees at Fanatics. And so to me, uh, if people don't share our core values, you know, they don't believe in what we believe in, it's probably not gonna be the right fit. They could be a great human being, a great individual and just not be right for us.

    21. JS

      Mm-hmm. Do you ever take a break? Have you ever taken a break?

    22. MR

      To me, I don't understand work-life balance.

    23. JS

      Mm.

    24. MR

      It's just, it's not who I am, so I'm not gonna apologize for it. And I know I sound like, you know, people could s- listen and say, like, "This guy's, you know, a little bit deranged and..." But I am who I am. I know, like, I know what I'm good at, and I know what I like doing.

    25. JS

      I, I mean, it may shock you, but I fully relate to it. Like, to me it's, I, you know, I think people, I-

    26. MR

      I appreciate it. I'm trying to get more people to, you know-

    27. JS

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    28. MR

      ... trying to, trying to get more people to, to not look at me like I'm crazy.

    29. JS

      And I, and I would agree with... I feel exactly the same way. Like, this week, and this is my average normal week, I l- I have morning hikes where I'm out with people that I work with. But I love them, and I enjoy their company. They're not people I have to work with. They're people I enjoy working with. So I'm having a hike meeting in the morning, which is, you know, 7:30 AM. Then I'm at work, whether I'm doing this or whatever I'm up to, whether I'm recording meditations, so sometimes I'm alone in a studio, and sometimes I'm with people. And then I have meetings, and then I've been having dinner meetings, too, and I love it. I wouldn't have it any other way.

    30. MR

      Of course.

  11. 21:50 – 23:33

    Routines to Help with Productivity

    1. JS

      Are there things in your day that you do that are your routines that may not be those things, but things that you're like, "You know, this one thing that I do per day, this makes me feel great"?

    2. MR

      It's probably centered around work-

    3. JS

      Yeah

    4. MR

      ... if I'm gonna be hon- hon-

    5. JS

      That's cool

    6. MR

      ... honest with you.

    7. JS

      Yeah. Please be honest

    8. MR

      ... I mean, I, I, I, I was always pleasantly plump until my journal came out.

    9. JS

      [laughs]

    10. MR

      So now that my journal's came out, I've gone from 210 to 160. I'd say working out is more important to me. You know, when you're 210, it's harder to work out. When you're 160, it's much easier to work out. So you live here in, uh, uh, the Top of Runyon, and, you know, for me, you know, kinda hiking to the Top of Runyon, you know, I've done that r- once already this week. I'm gonna do it again tomorrow. Like, I love doing it. Like, it's a, it's a blast for me. Working out's actually something that is becoming good for me because it's the one thing that lets me get a little bit of a mental break.

    11. JS

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MR

      Putting my phone down sometimes. I can be so addicted to my phone, it's just like, I just need, like, sometimes at dinner when, you know, my family has dinner, I would just, like, put my phone down for 20 minutes. That's a good thing. So I'd say things that have helped me of late have been, you know, getting those three to four workouts in per week because it does give me some mental clarity.

    13. JS

      Mm.

    14. MR

      And I'd say putting my phone down 20 or 30 minutes a day when I'm just not gonna look at it and say, "Okay," like, "Give me a mental break," 'cause I think you can just become so obsessed that it's almost, it's bad for you, and then you become less effective.

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      Um, probably the biggest routine I have, if we say, like, let's keep it real, it's gonna be the people that I, I work closely with, it's talking to them all the time. I'm always just, like, peeling the layers back on what we're doing. So, like, any of my, you know, top leaders, I'm on the phone with, on Zooms with, meeting with in person all the time because that's the way we're just, like, building the best business.

    17. JS

      Yeah, absolutely, and I, I, I do believe that it's, it's what it takes for the level of success that you've achieved. I wonder, you know, if you, if you Google

  12. 23:33 – 25:22

    Defining Your Worth

    1. JS

      your net worth, it says 11 billion. It could be more, probably is. How do you define how much you're worth?

    2. MR

      I don't. I'll tell you a story I probably shouldn't say. God, this is blowing somebody up I shouldn't blow up. But like, Forbes reached out, and they said, "Hey, we wanna put you on the cover of Forbes, um, for the Forbes 400." I'm like, "No, I don't wanna be known for my net worth. I wanna be known for building a great company." By the way, there are so many things with our company that we suck at, that we need to be better at. Like, I wanna b- like, the way I look at it is I'm a big startup, and I wanna make sure that I'm always fighting to be better in everything we do. And in everything we do, I wanna build what, what we make better for the fan, and we have so much to do to accomplish that. So I don't wanna be known about money. I don't wanna be known... I wanna be known about making the world a better place and making my company better. Those are honestly, you know, the two things I'm maniacally focused on.

    3. JS

      Yeah. I believe it. I believe it. I, I genuinely do, and, and I think that's-

    4. MR

      By the way, who ca- like, I'm not in a competition for, like-

    5. JS

      Totally

    6. MR

      ... n- it's, it's irrelevant. Like, my life is not changing financially based on anything that happens going forward. You know, I'm, I'm fortunate that I'm, I'm in a nice position today, so, like, to me, the thing that gets me most exciting is winning in business 'cause that's my sport. That's what I'm good at. And so I look at each business, and I look at not all the things we do right. I look at all the things we do wrong and all the things we can be better at. And so I'm always saying, "How can we improve in everything we do?" Because guess what? There are a lot of things we need to be a lot better at, and that's what I'm focused on. And then, you know, upfront you talked about kinda giving back. It's interesting, I never, ever cared about making a difference in the world until I had an event in, in 2017 that, that changed my perspective. Before that, I would just always write checks. You came and said, "Hey, I'm doing this." "Hey, let me give you a check," to shut you up as quickly as I could because I didn't care. I just wanted to focus on work. And then my eyes got opened, which is what people always say, like, "Hey, should I be behind this?" And I said, "Do what's authentic. Do what's real." And, you know, for me, that's kind of how my life has kind of, you know, evolved.

  13. 25:22 – 30:35

    The Reform Alliance

    1. JS

      Yeah, and why was it, I believe it was Meek Mill who introduced you to criminal justice? Like, there was-

    2. MR

      Well, it was, I, I mean, everyone knows the story at this point.

    3. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    4. MR

      You know, you know, Meek got, um, you know, sent to prison for two to four years for popping a wheelie on a motorcycle. He, the smartest thing he did for both of us was say, "Hey, can you come to court with me that day? I want you to see what happens when a Black person goes to court." I didn't, like, even understand what he was saying, and then, you know, I watched him get sent to prison for two to four years for not committing a crime, uh, for popping a wheelie on a motorcycle. Like, that was the most uncomfortable thing that's ever happened to my body 'cause it was like I'm used to being in control. I'm a strong business leader. I'm used to leading, and now I had a judge who sent him to prison for two to four years for not committing a crime, for popping a wheelie on a motorcycle, and it was, like, the most out-of-body experience I ever had. And so once he ultimately got out of prison and we started the Reform Alliance, you know, for me, you know, I learned a really valuable lesson because a lot of people told me, "Don't get involved with this. Don't get involved with him. You're gonna hurt your business. You're gonna hurt the Sixers." And I just went with my instincts, which is like this is my brother, and, like, he needs help. And by the way, Jay-Z and Desiree Perez from, from Roc Nation stepped up in a huge way. Like, you know, it was, it was kind of us collectively. But, like, I've had a couple experiences in the last four or five years where we've done things where people told us would be bad for business, bad for us, and we didn't care. We did what we thought was the right thing, and you always get paid back in karma. Like, that is something I've learned-

    5. JS

      Mm. Mm

    6. MR

      ... in the last five years. Probably the biggest thing I've learned in the last five years, you know, don't worry about what people tell you is gonna be the, the right outcome. You do what you think is right. If you do what's right, you know, it generally works out.

    7. JS

      Yeah, no, and, and I'm glad you repeat that story. There may be some of our audience who may or may not be aware, so thank you for sharing that. But, and I wanted them to hear it from you because it, it is, it's so interesting when something becomes so personal, when it happens to someone that's so close to you, the issue almost becomes so much more relatable and easier to access. For you, what have been some of the most... Like, I loved what you said. Like, the moment you walked in here and I was telling you how much I've appreciated the impact work you're doing, and you're like, "We're not doing it fast enough. We're not d- there's more to do," you know.

    8. MR

      But we're not-

    9. JS

      And I, and I love that. Like, that's exactly the energy you need to have. So walk me through the wins that have been there that have shown you that you're doing the right thing, and then walk me through what are the issues that you're still trying to solve and figure out.

    10. MR

      Well, look, the interesting thing was when Meek got sent to prison in November 2017, just about everybody I knew said, "Do not get involved in this. This will reflect poorly on the Sixers. This will reflect poorly on Fanatics. Less people will buy tickets and, and they, they're gonna see you helping a criminal." And so Desiree Perez from Roc Nation, myself, w- w- you know, we spent a lot of the next six months, you know, working every day to get him out of prison, and once we got him out of prison, you know, Meek said to me, and I said to Meek, like, "Look, this is destiny, man. You got sent to prison because you were the one anointed to, to help fix the system." And I would... If you would've asked me before November 12th, 2017, when he got sent to prison, if you would've said to me what do I care about from a charity perspective, it was writing checks to get people out of my office as quickly as possible. I did not care about any issues. But what Meek used to always say to me, "Michael, this is a normal day for Black America." And so, you know, that he had been sent to prison for a technical probation violation, it was easy for us to say we have to change the probation and parole system, and that's what we set out to do. The interesting thing was, uh, when we finally decided to do this, which was, I guess, f- finally, when we did it, immediately I was trying to figure out how to come up with a goal 'cause to me you have to come up with big, bold goals. And this, this speaks to entrepreneurialism and not taking a kinda charitable approach to things. I asked a friend of mine, who I don't want to name, but someone I have huge respect for, I said, you know, "How many people should we try to get out of probation and parole?" They said, "Well, how many people are in the system?" I said, "Four and a half million." They said, "Well, go with 10,000. That's a really safe number." I said, "10,000? Let's go for a million." So we're in this less than five years. We've passed 17 bills in 11 states and created a pathway for 700,000 people to get off of probation and parole who shouldn't be on it. And by the way, um, there were four and a half million people on probation and parole when we started. There's 3.8 million people today. And what's proven, this is really important to understand, if you keep someone on probation or parole too long, you entrap them in the-

    11. JS

      Mm

    12. MR

      ... criminal justice system, and then what you do is you actually create a less safe outcome for neighborhoods and for environments versus if people serve their time, have the appropriate amount of rehabilitation, you know, they're on probation and parole for the right amount of time, then they're gonna go out and they're gonna make, you know, a positive im- impact on the world. So Meek had been on probation between the time served and time left 18 years. Now in California, where we're doing this today, the governor signed it in one of the first bills that we did with the, with Gavin Newsom, which was amazing, is a one-year cap on misdemeanor and a two-year cap on felonies, and that was, like, breakthrough legislation that we worked on together, you know, with many people to bring together to make that happen in the state of California, which is one of the best things we've done at the Reform Alliance. So my point is, like-

    13. JS

      That's huge. Yeah

    14. MR

      ... we turn this negative into a positive. We then came up with a really bold goal that people thought we were nuts. When I told people a million people, like, everyone looked at me like I have seven heads, but I'm like, "What's the worst that happens?" Like, so we get 300,000 people, 400,000 people, I'll still think we won. I don't care.

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      You wanna say we failed 'cause we didn't get the million? And by the way, now we're gonna, we're gonna surpass the million, I think.

    17. JS

      Wow, that's

  14. 30:35 – 33:30

    The Billion-Dollar Goal

    1. JS

      incredible. And you're so right. Most of us, when we set a bold goal, whether it's to make an impact or whether it's in business, we're actually just worrying about what everyone will think if we don't hit that goal.

    2. MR

      So I'm gonna give you a great example, so-

    3. JS

      Go for it

    4. MR

      ... um, today at Fanatics- Um, you know, we've built a pretty big business in our commerce business, which is merchandise. That's where I started. That's where a lot of people know us from. By the way, we still have so much to do to be better, so many things to improve the consumer experience, to innovate more product. We're a leader in that business. In the collectibles business, we're a real leader today. In the online sports betting, iGaming business, we're just starting, okay? We're gonna be, um... Fanatics Sportsbook just launched earlier this year. We'll be basically in just about every s- legal state by the end of this year under the Fanatics brand with, with one wallet. I woke up, and our guys, we talk about being number three. Like, you know, hey, FanDuel's number one, DraftKings' number two, uh, we're number three. And, you know, the... Sorry, we, we aspire to be number three. Today we're, like, number eight. We're just starting. And I woke up about three weeks ago, and I called our CEO, Matt King, who's amazing. I said, "Matt, like, we gotta- our goal needs to be number one." By the way, maybe we'll accomplish it, maybe we won't. Maybe we won't be successful at all. Like, the jury's out. We're investing a billion and a half dollars to try to be the top player, okay? But, like, I don't wanna play for number three. Number three's a loser. I wanna play for number one. And so many people are gonna say to me, so many people listening to this will be like, "Wait, you wanna be number one to FanDuel and DraftKings in online sports betting and iGaming?" I'm declaring right now, it's the first time I've publicly said this, I wanna be number one. I have no idea whether I have any chance of that accomplishing. But I can tell you what, I'm not waking up to try to be number three. That's a loser.

    5. JS

      And that's what's got you here, so you feel convinced that that's what it was. What was the f- do you remember the first go- big goal you ever set?

    6. MR

      I do.

    7. JS

      Yeah.

    8. MR

      In 2009, I made a goal. I said to all of our, uh, team, I said that I wanna build... We were $250 million in revenue, 2010. I said, "One day we could be a billion dollars in revenue." That division's $6 billion today, okay? I said, "One day we could be a billion dollars," okay? Then four years later we said, "One day we could be $5 billion," okay? And we're only just trying to come up with goals for just, like, to try to measure, you know, success or failure.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. MR

      But I love coming up with bold goals, and I don't care whether I accomplish them or fail. I care about coming up with bold goals to work against and then making huge progress against them, whether I accomplish them or not.

    11. JS

      Yeah, the point is you're more likely to challenge yourself enough to come up with better strategies, more products, better customer service. Like, you're actually just gonna improve drastically towards that level.

    12. MR

      If you set goals that are-

    13. JS

      Yeah

    14. MR

      ... easy to accomplish, then you're actually saying you wanna fail-

    15. JS

      Yeah

    16. MR

      ... to start with.

    17. JS

      Yeah.

    18. MR

      If you come up with bold goals... And by... It's easier... Look, I know what people are gonna say. I'm an owner. It's easier to say that as an owner, okay? And maybe sometimes you just need to set goals up that you say to yourself, 'cause you don't wanna tell your boss that goal always, okay? Or you tell your boss, "Here's the budgeting goal I'm giving you, but now let me tell you the real goal that I have," okay? And so I like rallying people against big, audacious, you know, hard-to-achieve goals because I think you're just gonna accomplish more.

    19. JS

      Yeah,

  15. 33:30 – 34:18

    Family Life in the Midst of Success

    1. JS

      absolutely. How does, how does this energy convert over to Michael's love life? Like, how does this kinda, how does, how does Michael in love change from Michael in business to-

    2. MR

      I mean, you'd have to ask Camille that.

    3. JS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    4. MR

      Um, I think what Camille would say is she's incredibly supportive of what I do. She knows it's what I love doing. You know, she's the most incredible mother on the planet. We have, uh... So I have a 17-year-old daughter, then I have a three-year-old and one-year-old with Camille. You know, she puts as much energy as I put into work, she puts into being a mom, and I think that's what makes us great together. Would I say that, you know, I'm always the most available person? No. Does she wanna, you know, kill me multiple times a week?

    5. JS

      [laughs]

    6. MR

      Probably yes. But she also knows this is what makes me, me, and what I love to do, and, you know, she loves being the greatest mom in the world and we have a great relationship. But, you know, would you call my personal life or our personal life perfect? Definitely not, 'cause I work like an animal.

    7. JS

      No. No, of course not. Of course not. No, no one has the perfect personal or professional life.

  16. 34:18 – 36:22

    Finding Balance Between Career and Family

    1. JS

      But did you... W- the, the reason why I ask is, you know, it's really interesting. I, I always feel like, you know, so much can be solved at the point of connection. What I mean by that is I... You know, my wife's a busy person, I'm a busy person, but I've... You know, I w- I was saying to someone on my team the other day, I'm really grateful that my wife has never said to me in the last 10 years that we've been together, "You don't spend enough time with me." Uh, it's because she knows who I am. She understands how I work. She knows I make time. I am present when I'm there. But she gets me. Like, she, she really gets me, and she got me when we got together. Yes, I was very not successful when we met, but she gets me, and she's seen that energy grow, and so she loves the time. And by the way, I don't say the same to her either, as she never hears from me like, "You don't spend enough time with me," or, "You're not around," if she's busy and she has to move. Did you know that when you met Camille? How did you set that up? How did that become real? How did she get to know you that well? Because I feel like for a lot of people, the way you work, the way I work, the way certain people work, it would be unbearable, and it would be a deal breaker, but then it's really hard to also have an amazing life and, and build everything you wanna build, right? It's... So how, how did you... I'm just intrigued as to how you had that conversation early days.

    2. MR

      Yeah. I'm not sure if we had the conversation or it kinda just grew into what it is. I think the same thing for Camille or my older daughter, Kylie. They would both say they wish that I were more available, more present, but they also respect and learn from my work ethic and what I do. And I think, you know, it kinda works itself out in the end. But, you know, different than you, um, I do hear from both Camille and Kylie-

    3. JS

      [laughs]

    4. MR

      ... you know, "You don't have enough time for me. You're not available enough." And sometimes that's a really good pride to like, okay, you know, put your phone down and turn the ringer off for a half an hour.

    5. JS

      Mm.

    6. MR

      You know, you don't always need to grab every call. And you know what, what, what my older daughter would always say to me, Kylie, is like, "Dad, it's always somebody important. I'm your oldest daughter." And Camille would say to me, you know, "It's me. Like, just let it go for a little bit." So they actually help me, whatever little balance I have, I think I get from Camille and Kylie.

    7. JS

      I loved what you said, like, you know, sometimes they say, "I need more time," but they also respect

  17. 36:22 – 40:30

    How to Prioritize What Matters the Most

    1. JS

      me. How do you reconcile that kinda dad guilt that could come with that? Or, and a lot of... I'm not a father yet, but a lot of my friends who are, they'll say it's so painful watching your little girl, my, my friends who have little girls will say, "It's so painful watching your little girl say, 'Daddy, just stay home with me today.'" Right? Like, how are you, how do you reconcile, like, this is good for them to see me work hard, and I know when to, like, put my phone down. But how do you, how do you make sense with that?

    2. MR

      Yeah. Well, the good thing is my three-year-old and one-year-old have grown up with me like this, so, and so did Kylie, by the way.

    3. JS

      Yeah.

    4. MR

      So they've all seen that work ethic. Look, Kylie, as everyone knows, my 17-year-old, is with me You know, all the time. She travels with me all the time. She's actually on a plane right now. She's about to land here in a few hours.

    5. JS

      Amazing.

    6. MR

      So, you know, sh- you know, she's with me a lot. She's got a great, you know, Kylie and Camille have a great relationship. They, they may have a support group, you know, together for the two of them against me.

    7. JS

      [laughs]

    8. MR

      Um, every family's different. Every person's different. Everyone needs to do what works for them, and I think I do what works for me, and they do what works for them, and I think they appreciate it. I also know to be there when it really matters. And so for me, Kylie went through an experience earlier this year, and she called me, and it had to do with college. She's, like, cursing me out. She's like-

    9. JS

      Mm

    10. MR

      ... like, "I need you to help me figure this out right now," and it was about, like, get- 'cause Kylie's much smarter than me, but she's not, like, you know, she goes to the toughest school in Philadelphia, and she, like, she wanted, like, some help with certain things, and, like, I had to call around and figure out h- how to do that and learn, peel the layers back and ultimately figure it out together. It's like when it really matters, like, I'm always there, and I'm good at figuring out what matters and what doesn't. And so I think that could be a superpower I have, which is how to prioritize. I am good at figuring out when am I really needed, when do I need to, like, you know, lock in and focus. It could be lock in and focus on a really important business deal, or it could be lock in and focus on a really important moment for Camille or for Kylie.

    11. JS

      Yeah. What, what, what your daughters do for you, my sister does for me. She'll always be like, "Stop being Jay Shetty. Just be my brother." Like, you know, it's like that feeling of like, "Stop giving me that advice. Just be my brother and, like, give me a hug."

    12. MR

      Yeah, I get, I get that from-

    13. JS

      And, yeah

    14. MR

      ... both of them all the time.

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      And my three-year-old, Romy, will, I'm s- sure, be giving me that, like, within a year or two.

    17. JS

      [laughs] And it's the best feeling, right? It's such, it's such a beautiful feeling 'cause you know someone loves you and wants you to just be there for them.

    18. MR

      It's getting those moments which you can really appreciate. So, you know-

    19. JS

      Yeah

    20. MR

      ... I try, try to get them when I can.

    21. JS

      Yeah, and Michael, that's what I'm trying to do on this podcast here, you know? I don't have a... I don't think there is an ideal way to live. I don't think there is a perfect way to approach your problems. I think that what I like to do is I like to introduce people. This is kind of my whole hypothesis in life. If I can introduce people to as many diverse people as possible that have all, in their own way, found purpose, impact, and success, then people actually have a chance of saying, "Oh, I like what they're saying. I'm gonna run with that," or, "Actually, you know what? I never thought about it like that," because I find when I was growing up, we were all exposed to the same set of people and the same set of ideas, and it was so hard to break that, and it was only for me, obviously, which is my personal journey, when I met a monk at 18, I didn't know what monks were. I didn't care what monks were. I had no interest in anything spiritual. If I had never met a monk, I would never have gone down the path of life I did. And so I'm always asking people, "Who's your monk?" And for some people, their monk will be you, and what I mean by that is they're gonna get introduced to you and go, "Yeah, that's, that's how I wanna live my life. That, that resonates with me." Does that make sense? Like-

    22. MR

      It makes complete sense

    23. JS

      Yeah, yeah.

    24. MR

      And I'm a huge believer in it, and I have... Look, if you'd say what's the most unique thing about me, it's probably the diversification of the people around me, and I think I've built that because it's right for me because I'm learning from all these people around me.

    25. JS

      Yeah.

    26. MR

      And so I've got this person, actually, it's, uh, a, uh, person who owns a, a, a local hobby shop, and he keeps, uh, sending me these really long text messages, and I actually keep meaning to send him back a voice note to just say, "Hey, man, I actually appreciate your input, but I don't... I barely read."

    27. JS

      [laughs]

    28. MR

      Like, I'm not that literate. Like, you're, you're laughing. I'm dead serious. Like, I haven't read a book since ninth grade. The last book I read was in ninth grade. I read The Swoosh, the story about the unauthorized story about Phil Knight. It's the last time I read a book, okay? So I'm not a good reader. I'm pretty dyslexic, okay? So, like, the way I learn is by, like, quick conversations. You know, you want me to read something, send me three lines, and I'm actually gonna read it. You send me three paragraphs, I'm already, I'm tuned out before I start.

    29. JS

      Mm.

    30. MR

      Um, so it's like, that's why I'm saying we all gotta learn from each other, what works for each other, and that's, you know, what makes me, me.

  18. 40:30 – 44:16

    Michael Rubin On Final Five

    1. JS

      Michael, you've been amazing. We end every episode with a Final Five. You'll like this. Each question has to be answered in one word to one sentence maximum, so it goes aligned with what you just said. So Michael Rubin, these are your Final Five. Question one is, what is the best entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received?

    2. MR

      Don't be afraid to fail.

    3. JS

      Because?

    4. MR

      'Cause if you're afraid to fail, you're never gonna take the shot. Like, how do you wanna be an entrepreneur? You're sitting there, and you're trying to figure out, like, should I do this or not? Like, you gotta go for it.

    5. JS

      Second question, what is the worst entrepreneurship advice you've ever heard or received?

    6. MR

      Do it for the money.

    7. JS

      Mm. All right, question number three, what's something you're currently trying to learn maybe in business or in life, something you're working on?

    8. MR

      How to do what's best for the consumer in everything that we do.

    9. JS

      Mm.

    10. MR

      Like, just complete consumer focus. I didn't grow up as a complete consumer person, and so I think there's things, if I look at parts of Fanatics where we're not good enough, we haven't been good enough, I'd say it's an obsession with the consumer.

    11. JS

      Yeah. That's what I always loved about, I still love it today, like, when I grew up, I remember the first time my parents took me to Disney World, and I was just like, "Everything about this place is, like, perfectly organized for me to have the best time of my life."

    12. MR

      Yeah.

    13. JS

      And it's, it's insane how much detail you can put into someone's experience.

    14. MR

      Yeah, yeah. I think we, we got our business model right. Everything I do has to be about the consumer. To win in a consumer business, it has to be about consumer first in everything you do.

    15. JS

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      That's something that I've, that I'm really... It's the biggest thing I'm focused on right now.

    17. JS

      Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful. All right, question number four, how would you define your current purpose with your impact work?

    18. MR

      Uh, real change. Like, to make real change, not like... Like, so many people who make impact work, they write... First of all, writing a check is easy, okay? If you have money, writing a check is easy. Like, don't think 'cause you give money away that you, you're making a difference. Like, go do the work, okay? But making real change, like, measure the results. Treat it like a business-

    19. JS

      Mm

    20. MR

      ... not like, you know, a charity. Like, we don't wanna r- run the Reform Alliance like a charity. We wanna run it like a business. We want business results.

    21. JS

      Beautiful. Uh, fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show, if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

    22. MR

      Couldn't be president after 65. I want the president of the United States to be an animal from a work ethic perspective. I want them to be on their A game. I wanna make sure that they're maniacal about the country the way I'm maniacal about my business. One law to go in place, max, you can't be elected to become president after 65 years old.

    23. JS

      Michael Rubin, everyone. If you've been listening and watching, make sure that you cut the clips for TikTok and Instagram that related to you, insights that you loved. Share them. I love knowing what are the lessons you're taking away. What are you practicing? What are you implementing and putting into your life? I think everyone just got the best pep talk that they need for right now in their life. This is gonna get you to those big goals. Listen to this episode. Share it with your friends. Share it with your family. I'm sure someone just needs a train to come run through their mind and break through all of the barriers that they've set up. I think Michael's that train. Uh, Michael, thank you so much.

    24. MR

      Or by the way, disagree with us. Tell me-

    25. JS

      Oh, disagree with us, yeah

    26. MR

      ... you don't, tell me you don't agree. By the way, I lo-

    27. JS

      Totally, of course

    28. MR

      ... I love when you disagree with me, too.

    29. JS

      Yeah, yeah, totally, of course. If you disagree with us, you can tell us, too. You do that anyway. I don't need to ask for that. [laughs]

    30. MR

      Hey, thanks for having me. It was a blast.

Episode duration: 44:17

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