KERRY WASHINGTON On The Family Secret That Changed Her Life: ”We’re as sick as our secrets”

Kerry Washington 0:00 And if you don't want the spoiler, then turn off the podcast now. My parents sat me down, um, and told me that ... Please give it up for Kerry Washington. I am not a fantasy. If you want me, earn me. Behind the mask of these characters, I actually started being able to express more of my truth. My characters became this safe space for me to both hide behind but also secretly reveal myself.

Jay Shetty 0:30 Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.

Kerry Washington 0:52 The bestselling author and host.

Speaker 0:53 The number one health and wellness podcast. On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 0:59 What would you say is a childhood memory that stands out to you in that it defines a lot of who you are today?

Kerry Washington 1:10 Oh, wow. What a great question. I feel like there are a lot of them in here.

Jay Shetty 1:15 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:16 But one ... I have a lot of pride about being the first girl in my neighborhood to play all sharks under, which is that game we played at the pool in my neighborhood, because, I don't know, I think I come from a, a line of really brave women. You know, when I think about my grandmother being an immigrant and coming to this country from Jamaica and, you know, being a young woman looking at that Statue of Liberty and what it must have meant for her to take on that adventure, and I think about my mom and, you know, the career that she built and, you know, the education that she pursued and the risks that she took even, you know, in terms of what I talk about in the book and, and how she, how I came to be in the world. Um, and so I think, you know, being a little girl who was, like, willing to be one of the sharks, you know, willing to play with the guys, willing to jump into the deep end and challenge myself and be one of the big kids and, uh, not be limited by my gender or my age or by the fear of, of what the game was or the depths of the water, I, I think that says a lot about kind of how I've lived my life, that willingness to swim in the deep end.

Jay Shetty 2:30 Mm.

Kerry Washington 2:30 You know?

Jay Shetty 2:30 Wow. Yeah. What,

Jay Shetty 2:32 what do you think gave the women who came before you that courage, that strength? Because I feel like a lot of the conversation around that has of course developed more recently-

Kerry Washington 2:43 Yeah

Jay Shetty 2:43 ... sadly.

Kerry Washington 2:44 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 2:44 But you see these women who just always had this strength and resilience and power despite it not being given to them or-

Kerry Washington 2:52 Mm. Mm

Jay Shetty 2:52 ... opportunities not being shown to them.

Kerry Washington 2:54 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:54 What, what do you think brought them through all of that?

Kerry Washington 2:58 It's funny 'cause I think in a lot of ways, like, for women of color and Black women in particular, we haven't had the, you know, dare I say privilege of being, like, damsels in distress. Like, no one was saving us. No one was rescuing us. As Black women, particularly, you know, with the diaspora and the history of slavery, we've, we've always been working women. We've always been resilient and strong out of necessity, and I think there's something about that that lives deep in my genetics, deep in my family history. S- I think we talk a lot about generational trauma, and there's definitely some of that in my story and some of it I talk about. But, but there's also generational courage and strength.

Jay Shetty 3:45 Mm.

Kerry Washington 3:45 And I think it's important for me to embrace both, to see both as being part of who I am.

Jay Shetty 3:51 Yeah. And it's almost like in, in a general sense one can't live without the other.

Kerry Washington 3:56 That's right, and, and they kind of give birth to each other a little bit too, right? Like, the trauma causes strength and the, it's you, you become a survivor and then you apply that wisdom. And I know that's true for me, that I, you know, there's things ... I know that I am who I am because of the things that I've had to walk through. You know, I am as much who I am because of all the extra hugs and love and encouragement I got and because of the, the adversity. You know-

Jay Shetty 4:23 Mm-hmm

Kerry Washington 4:23 ... it's all, it's all part of it.

Jay Shetty 4:25 Yeah. It's so beautiful to hear it like that, to, to, to look at it as non-binary.

Kerry Washington 4:30 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do. I ... It's funny, when I was coming here to talk to you, I was like, "Oh, this is so different for me," because I'm used to doing interviews to talk about, like, a television show or a movie, and I know, like, I know what that narrative is and I, I know what I'm selling, right? But this is like I'm not really selling anything. I'm, I'm really sharing, and I don't have, like, an agenda for, like, a piece of content. I'm, I'm really just, like, offering myself. And so it's different. It's, it's a very different process and experience for me because I'm not translating my experience into a character's journey. Like, I'm, I'm the cha- [laughs] I'm the character.

Jay Shetty 5:14 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 5:14 Um, so I bring that up to say I've been thinking a lot about the fact that there's a lot of complexity and it's not binary. There's, there's a lot of gray area. There's not, like ... There's no clear villain and there are no clear heroes, and it's real life, you know? And so I think I'm, in talking about the book, I'm gonna have to get really comfortable talking about those kind of complexities 'cause it's just not, it's just not simple. N- nobody's life is simple.

Jay Shetty 5:42 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 5:42 You know?

Jay Shetty 5:43 Well, I think you do a really wonderful job in the book to elegantly and, you know, gently share it with everyone-

Kerry Washington 5:51 Mm. Thank you

Jay Shetty 5:51 ... the, the complexities of it. And what I did is

Jay Shetty 5:55 I have a few lines from the book that really stood out to me.

Kerry Washington 5:57 Oh.

Jay Shetty 5:58 And I'd love to discuss those with you-

Kerry Washington 6:00 Okay. Yes

Jay Shetty 6:01 ... if that's okay.

Kerry Washington 6:01 Of course.

Jay Shetty 6:02 Because I-

Kerry Washington 6:02 I'm like, let me, let me get comfortable here.

Jay Shetty 6:03 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 6:03 I'm gonna take my shoes off. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:04 Please, take your shoes off.

Kerry Washington 6:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:05 Be as comfortable as you like.

Kerry Washington 6:06 Okay.

Jay Shetty 6:06 You wanna cross your legs?

Kerry Washington 6:07 Yes, yes. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 6:07 You wanna ... Whatever you wanna do.

Kerry Washington 6:08 I was like, oh, boy.

Jay Shetty 6:09 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 6:09 We're gonna read the book. Okay.

Jay Shetty 6:10 [laughs] I always find that- The words that someone chooses and the vocabulary they have and the language they use to define experiences. And of course, I want everyone to know that we're only skimming the surface of what's in the book, or all the details in the book, and I highly recommend you, you turn to the book for more of the context.

Kerry Washington 6:29 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:29 But I think this will give people a glimpse into the kind of places you go to-

Kerry Washington 6:34 Okay

Jay Shetty 6:34 ... and you allow yourself to go to.

Kerry Washington 6:35 Okay.

Jay Shetty 6:35 So one of the things that stood out to me in the book, and I'm, I'm reading here only to make sure I don't-

Kerry Washington 6:40 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 6:41 ... misquote you.

Kerry Washington 6:41 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 6:42 So you talk about how you suffered from panic attacks at age seven.

Kerry Washington 6:46 Mm.

Jay Shetty 6:46 And in your words you say, "I would force myself to try to have good thoughts."

Kerry Washington 6:52 Mm.

Jay Shetty 6:53 And I was just thinking, did you know what a panic attack was at seven? Were you aware? What did it feel like?

Kerry Washington 6:59 Mm.

Jay Shetty 7:00 And why did you try to say good thoughts? Like, why was that the solution?

Kerry Washington 7:05 Mm.

Jay Shetty 7:05 And what were those thoughts?

Kerry Washington 7:06 Mm. Mm. Mm-hmm. No, I didn't know. I didn't have the language when I was seven that it was a panic attack. It was later in life in my early 20s when I started having panic attacks again-

Jay Shetty 7:18 Mm

Kerry Washington 7:18 ... that I recognized that this was something that's been with me for a long time on and off through the years, and I realized I had been having them since I was that little kid. And it felt like dread pulsing through my body. Like, I know I described it as like this whirling, like a spinning, like a rhythm I couldn't control, like a rising heat, like a clenching in my throat, a fear that felt like it was small enough to be in every little cell but big enough to drown in.

Jay Shetty 7:51 Mm.

Kerry Washington 7:51 You know? And I just, like, as I say that to you, I have so much love for that little girl lying in that bed without the language to describe it as I'm describing it to you, but still having to hold space for the experience of it. The good thoughts, you know, I, I think I sort of, I, I think I describe it that way in that moment as good thoughts because I was seven and there was good and bad, right? There wasn't the nuance of like this is an opportunity or this-

Jay Shetty 8:18 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 8:18 You know, it just was like-

Jay Shetty 8:19 Can you imagine?

Kerry Washington 8:20 ... like this feels bad, right?

Jay Shetty 8:22 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 8:22 Like this feels really bad and I wanna feel good. And I didn't, you know, I didn't know Louise Hay at that time. I didn't, I didn't know that, I didn't know about affirmations. But I just would ... I knew The Sound of Music. I knew the, that you could, like, think about your favorite things and maybe feel all right.

Jay Shetty 8:41 Mm.

Kerry Washington 8:41 And so I just tried to think about things that made me happy, things that brought me joy or a sense of peace. Um, and I would try to kind of shut out the panic and make the volume of the good things louder in my head.

Jay Shetty 8:58 And at seven where were those negative or bad thoughts coming from? Like, where was that panic coming from? What was the source of it?

Kerry Washington 9:05 Yeah. I think a lot of it was, um ... You know, I talk about hearing my parents arguing in the other room. But in general there was this, um, this sense of ... It's a big word and I, I'm gonna say it and then contextualize it.

Jay Shetty 9:23 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 9:23 I think I, I felt unsafe.

Jay Shetty 9:25 Mm.

Kerry Washington 9:25 I was safe in a lot of ways. You know, I was very loved. We were, you know ... I was provided for materially. I was wanted. I was appreciated. I was encouraged. But I also knew as I talk about in the memoir that there were things, there was information that was being kept from me. I didn't know it consciously, but unconsciously I felt like, like I wasn't being given the full truth.

Jay Shetty 9:52 Mm.

Kerry Washington 9:52 And that created in me this s- um, like a sense of distrust and of longing for wholeness. Like, something felt incomplete and un-whole.

Jay Shetty 10:06 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 10:06 It's not, it's probably not the right way to say it, but ... So I think the panic was me trying to navigate the fear of like what don't I know? I don't even know what I don't know. I just know I, I don't have everything I need to feel safe.

Jay Shetty 10:18 Mm. I'm really glad you gave that context because I think that today when we hear the word unsafe we think it means physically-

Kerry Washington 10:26 Right

Jay Shetty 10:26 ... and we think it means materially.

Kerry Washington 10:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 10:29 But it's so interesting that those things can be taken care of and you still feel an internal unease.

Kerry Washington 10:35 Yeah. Yes. A, a dis-ease.

Jay Shetty 10:37 A dis-ease.

Kerry Washington 10:37 Like a, um ... It was an emot- I wasn't emotionally safe.

Jay Shetty 10:41 Mm.

Kerry Washington 10:42 I knew that. That's, that's, that's what I knew somewhere deep down.

Jay Shetty 10:46 Mm.

Kerry Washington 10:46 And I didn't have a way to confirm it, and I didn't even have a way to ask about it.

Jay Shetty 10:49 Mm.

Kerry Washington 10:50 It just was this feeling. And I didn't even know if I should trust the feeling, right?

Jay Shetty 10:54 Mm.

Kerry Washington 10:54 Because everyone was saying, "It's all good. Everything's fine." Um, so I, I think that maybe a lot of the, the panic was that I was from early on being asked to disconnect from my own sense of knowing.

Jay Shetty 11:09 Mm. Wow.

Kerry Washington 11:10 You know, I was being taught from the moment I got to this planet, from the moment that I was born, I was being taught that I had to act as if the lie was true.

Jay Shetty 11:23 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 11:23 The lie of, of who my family was and how we came to be. So I didn't really, I didn't know, I di- I didn't know what I didn't know, but I knew I didn't know something.

Jay Shetty 11:32 Mm. Yeah. And it's, it's so interesting, right? I think that so many of us feel that way, that our feelings when we were younger were not validated or acknowledged.

Kerry Washington 11:43 Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 11:43 And we weren't trained to do that.

Kerry Washington 11:45 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 11:45 If anything, like in yours, we were taught to reject or-

Kerry Washington 11:48 Yeah

Jay Shetty 11:48 ... abandon.

Kerry Washington 11:48 Deny.

Jay Shetty 11:49 Deny.

Kerry Washington 11:49 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 11:50 And then they don't just go away because of that. They often come back in the future, and we'll, we'll get to that. But they come back in so many different ways in our lives when you abandon your own truth-

Kerry Washington 12:01 Yeah

Jay Shetty 12:01 ... at the beginning of your life. And it's

Jay Shetty 12:03 ... Did you, did you ever feel that you were able to reconnect? What helped you reconnect with that sense of knowing again-

Kerry Washington 12:12 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 12:13 ... in the future internally?

Kerry Washington 12:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 12:16 Because I feel like that's something that- Like, you can remember having knowing-

Kerry Washington 12:21 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 12:22 ... and then you can remember how you let it go.

Kerry Washington 12:24 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 12:25 Most people I speak to feel like they never felt like they knew, and I don't think it's because they never knew. It's because they let it go of it so early that we forgot that we knew.

Kerry Washington 12:35 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 12:35 If that makes any sense. [laughs]

Kerry Washington 12:36 It does, it does.

Jay Shetty 12:37 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 12:37 I don't remember, I don't remember knowing and then not knowing, but I, I remember learning that it was more important to play along than to fight for what I thought I knew.

Jay Shetty 12:49 Mm.

Kerry Washington 12:50 And then it was like, okay, it's the script that matters.

Jay Shetty 12:53 Mm.

Kerry Washington 12:53 It's like the, this performance of this perfect family, like that's, that's the priority.

Jay Shetty 12:58 Mm.

Kerry Washington 12:59 And their feelings are more important than mine, whoever the they is. [laughs] And the they was, like, lots of different people throughout my life.

Jay Shetty 13:06 Mm.

Kerry Washington 13:06 But I think one of the first things, one of the first tools that helped to bring me back to myself was yoga.

Jay Shetty 13:13 Mm.

Kerry Washington 13:14 It was like the first, one of the first times that I remember being still in my body in Shavasana at the end of that first yoga class that I took in high school, and weeping because I felt really, like, present in my body. Like, I wasn't trying to escape or deny or quiet or ... I was just, like, fully present in my body, and it was terrifying-

Jay Shetty 13:40 Mm

Kerry Washington 13:40 ... because I was like, "I don't know if this is okay." It was different from how I was taught to be. Not, not like didactically taught, but it was different from how I learned to be to survive emotionally.

Jay Shetty 13:55 How did that

Jay Shetty 13:56 feeling transpire in other areas of your life, that desire of like, "I'm gonna perform, I'm gonna put up what people need me to do"? Like, did you find that manifesting in other areas of your life, or were you able to kind of go, "No, that was just with my family," and ...

Kerry Washington 14:11 No, I mean, I got really [laughs] I got really lucky because I found a career where I could perform, [laughs] where I could, like ... This superpower that I had to kind of shape-shift and be whoever you needed me to be, I started knowing how to do that in an audition room and on a set and on a stage, and I realized there, there actually was this place in life where performing was the true goal and it, it was okay to, to want to be somebody other than myself and to want to step away from my truth to another person's truth. Like, that actually led me to a really exciting, adventurous, abundant life. And then this weird thing happened where behind the mask of these characters, I actually started being able to express more of my truth.

Jay Shetty 15:01 Mm.

Kerry Washington 15:02 Right? Like, in my life with my family at home, I couldn't necessarily be angry or express fear or insecurity, but if I was playing a character, I could have all of those big, intense feelings, and it wasn't threatening to anyone. It was actually rewarded.

Jay Shetty 15:19 Mm.

Kerry Washington 15:19 So my characters became, like, this safe space for me to both hide behind but also secretly reveal myself.

Jay Shetty 15:27 Mm. It's incredible how, like, something so stressful and uncomfortable turns into a talent-

Kerry Washington 15:34 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 15:34 ... but also a healing.

Kerry Washington 15:36 Yes.

Jay Shetty 15:37 Right? It's a-

Kerry Washington 15:37 Truly.

Jay Shetty 15:38 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 15:38 I'm so grateful that, um, that acting led me to be able to have more emotional vocabulary, more willingness to actually feel my feelings and express them. And I'm even grateful ... I mean, it was how I stumbled upon acting is that, you know, my mother is a very stoic, she's so elegant, and, like, she's really somebody who is not very expressive of her emotions 'cause she's, she operates from here and is very dignified and stoic. And so, you know, because God has an enormous sense of humor, she had this child and I was just, like, a walking id.

Jay Shetty 16:17 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 16:17 Just, like, feelings all over the place, and God bless her because she's an educator. Rather than just say, like, "Stop having feelings," she was like, "You're gonna go to this children's theater company."

Jay Shetty 16:29 Mm.

Kerry Washington 16:29 'Cause I'd, I, I imagine, you know, she was thinking, "I don't know what to do with all these feelings." You know, as well as I know my mother-

Jay Shetty 16:35 Yeah

Kerry Washington 16:35 ... she was kinda like, "Eh, I don't know what to do with you, but they'll know what to do with you." And so she, the amazing educator that she is, she led me to spaces where I could-

Jay Shetty 16:45 Mm

Kerry Washington 16:45 ... be expressive and energetic and emotional, and she could applaud from over here-

Jay Shetty 16:50 Yeah

Kerry Washington 16:50 ... [laughs] and not have to wrangle.

Jay Shetty 16:53 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 16:53 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 16:53 Absolutely, yeah. And it's ...

Jay Shetty 16:55 What I find so interesting when I was reading the book too is just recently I saw that you mentioned how you have always been trying to get away from acting now.

Kerry Washington 17:03 Yes. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 17:04 And, and that these amazing opportunities keep coming your way.

Kerry Washington 17:07 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 17:08 Explain that to us, because I think what I, what I love about this is kind of what we were talking about since the beginning of this interview, which is this texture and this-

Kerry Washington 17:15 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 17:15 ... complexity.

Kerry Washington 17:16 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 17:17 Which what appears to be a paradox-

Kerry Washington 17:19 Yeah

Jay Shetty 17:19 ... but actually that's the human experience where you're like, "I had this pain. Acting was healing me, but now acting's something I've been trying to move away from."

Kerry Washington 17:28 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 17:29 But it's okay that that's so ... Walk u- walk me through the, the depths of that or the texture behind that of like, why, why is it something that despite it being so healing and powerful and a safe space to feel all of this, does it not feel like a forever home sometimes?

Kerry Washington 17:45 I'm super interested to hear what you think about this-

Jay Shetty 17:47 Yeah

Kerry Washington 17:47 ... because some of this is the tension between the pure art and craft of the work, the creative craft-

Jay Shetty 17:56 Mm

Kerry Washington 17:56 ... of acting and storytelling and narrative and, um, I love that work. I always love that work. Even when it's really, really hard, I feel like what a privilege, what a gift.

Jay Shetty 18:07 Mm.

Kerry Washington 18:07 It feels like a, a true calling. I don't always love the business stuff, you know? I don't always love the rejection and the, um, competition and the how hard it is to get something off the ground and get something produced and get something green-lit or, like, I don't always love- I love the making of it. I don't always love the vulnerability of when it hits the airwaves [laughs] and, like, the criticism and the ratings and the reviews and um, and so that, it's like the ... When I, when I wanna leave is when it feels like the business parts of it, the, the kind of worldly material parts of it become too expensive to my soul.

Jay Shetty 18:51 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 18:51 It just feels like I don't, I don't wanna have to navigate all of that stuff, so I'm gonna go find something else. It's like that great, you know, the, the Winston Churchill Brene Brown quote about, like, being in the ring and, you know, what it is to be in the ring, and it's that beautiful vulnerability. And sometimes I'm like, "I don't wanna be in the ring."

Jay Shetty 19:08 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 19:08 Like, you know what, God? Like, you can have the ring. Like, I'm good.

Jay Shetty 19:12 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 19:12 I think I wanna be an observer-

Jay Shetty 19:13 Yeah. [laughs]

Kerry Washington 19:14 ... and like, you know, be booing from the crowd for once.

Jay Shetty 19:17 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 19:17 Like, not really. I'm a-

Jay Shetty 19:18 Yeah, yeah

Kerry Washington 19:18 ... very generous viewer usually, but-

Jay Shetty 19:21 Yeah

Kerry Washington 19:21 ... but sometimes it's that. It's like sometimes the vulnerability on the business side feels like too much. Not the vulnerability on stage, not the vulnerability in front of the camera, but the, the stuff outside of the creative craft.

Jay Shetty 19:34 Mm.

Kerry Washington 19:34 So that's some- When, when that stuff feels like ugh, it's taking over and I'm spending more time thinking about how to win than I am about how to create, then I feel like I'm gonna go do something else-

Jay Shetty 19:46 Mm

Kerry Washington 19:46 ... something that feels purer, like teaching kids or teaching yoga or, you know, something, all the other things I've tried to do. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 19:53 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 19:53 And then, and then inevitably, you know, I'll read and then right when ... Like, I remember I had ... I mean, I really did not have money to burn. It was early in my career, and I was like, "I'm done. I'm done. I'm done. I'm done." And I signed up for a yoga teacher training. I got certified to teach yoga when I was living in India, but this, I didn't have a certification in the States, and so I signed up for this very fancy Jivamukti Yoga in New York.

Jay Shetty 20:16 Mm-hmm. I know Jivamukti.

Kerry Washington 20:16 And, um-

Jay Shetty 20:16 I know Sharon Gannon.

Kerry Washington 20:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:18 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 20:18 And so I was gonna do their teacher training. I had just made my last payment, and then I read the script for Ray, and I was like, holy. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 20:27 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 20:28 Like, I have to do this movie. So that's what, that's what happens always is I-

Jay Shetty 20:32 Mm

Kerry Washington 20:32 ... I get to the edge of like, eh, and then something beautiful calls me in, something that feels like it's worth-

Jay Shetty 20:41 Mm

Kerry Washington 20:41 ... the work of the material-

Jay Shetty 20:44 Mm

Kerry Washington 20:44 ... stuff, the BS, the ... Or just, like, the adulting.

Jay Shetty 20:49 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 20:49 Like, all the, you know, all that stuff.

Jay Shetty 20:50 Mm.

Kerry Washington 20:50 It's worth that to be able to go back to that play and that-

Jay Shetty 20:53 Mm

Kerry Washington 20:53 ... creativity and that, that stuff where I feel like my soul gets to be of service in a narrative.

Jay Shetty 20:59 Mm. I think you're speaking the language of every true artist and creator-

Kerry Washington 21:04 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 21:04 ... who feels that-

Kerry Washington 21:05 Yeah

Jay Shetty 21:06 ... in a way that they may not even have tried to push as far as you have.

Kerry Washington 21:11 Mm.

Jay Shetty 21:11 Like, you're someone who's achieved the peak of your creative endeavors, right? You've made incredible box office films, like TV.

Kerry Washington 21:19 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 21:19 Like, you've, you've won i- in that sense-

Kerry Washington 21:22 Mm

Jay Shetty 21:22 ... in your art.

Kerry Washington 21:23 Yeah, sort of.

Jay Shetty 21:24 And, and I, I mean, in the, in the external mater-

Kerry Washington 21:27 Yeah

Jay Shetty 21:27 ... like, in the sense of, like, you're someone who's-

Kerry Washington 21:28 But you

Kerry Washington 21:29 see what I mean?

Jay Shetty 21:29 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 21:29 Like, when I say sort of, it's because, like, there are awards I haven't won.

Jay Shetty 21:32 Yes.

Kerry Washington 21:32 There are awards I haven't been nominated for. There are, like, certain people who've made more money at the box office.

Jay Shetty 21:39 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 21:39 They hold different rec- It's like ... And that's a little bit of the part of what I do that I don't love, right?

Jay Shetty 21:44 Mm.

Kerry Washington 21:44 Like, I remember an acting teacher saying to me once, "No matter what he does-

Jay Shetty 21:49 Mm

Kerry Washington 21:50 ... Tom Cruise is never gonna be Tom Hanks."

Jay Shetty 21:52 Mm.

Kerry Washington 21:53 "He's never gonna have, like, three years in a row back-to-back Oscar nominations. He's never gonna have that. Like, h- he can have Born on the Fourth of July, but he's not gonna be ... He's not gonna have Tom Hanks's career." And guess what? No matter what Tom Hanks does, he's never gonna have Tom Cruise's career.

Jay Shetty 22:08 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 22:08 He's never gonna have back-to-back Mission Impossibles and, like, hold all the box office records and 30 years later be able to make another Top Gun-

Jay Shetty 22:14 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 22:14 ... and have it be the nominated for a Best Picture. Like, they have different careers-

Jay Shetty 22:18 Yeah

Kerry Washington 22:18 ... but neither is less valid. Like, they're both winning. They've both won.

Jay Shetty 22:22 Mm.

Kerry Washington 22:22 And that's part of the challenge for me is, like, how to accept that-

Jay Shetty 22:26 Mm

Kerry Washington 22:26 ... this journey, my journey, is the journey. It doesn't have to look like anybody else's. It doesn't have to measure up according to anybody else's standard. And I think for a long time because I wasn't comfortable with myself because I didn't really know my story, and so I wasn't really living my story, I always felt like I was the co-star in somebody else's story, whether it was at work or at home or whatever, that writing this memoir was a little bit about, like, I got that missing puzzle piece that helped me put myself at the center of my story, and then I was like, I wanna do the work to write that.

Jay Shetty 23:00 Mm.

Kerry Washington 23:00 I wanna do the work to know what it feels like to center myself so that I can make sure that in this lifetime I'm living my story and not chasing somebody else's.

Jay Shetty 23:11 Wow. You're speaking to everyone's soul right now.

Kerry Washington 23:13 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 23:13 Everything you're saying, I'm like, oh, like ... It's, and it, and it shows, right? I think when, when we feel like we can really understand someone we don't know-

Kerry Washington 23:22 Mm, mm

Jay Shetty 23:22 ... or someone we haven't spent a lot of time with, it means that they understand themselves.

Kerry Washington 23:26 Ah.

Jay Shetty 23:26 Because we're-

Kerry Washington 23:27 Yes.

Jay Shetty 23:28 You know, when you're-

Kerry Washington 23:28 'Cause we're at that, like, humanity, that, like, naked truth of just what it means to be human.

Jay Shetty 23:33 Exactly.

Kerry Washington 23:34 Right? Yeah.

Jay Shetty 23:34 Like, I'm listening to you going, wow, I think everything you just said, like, I think every creative person I know has expressed some part of that to me.

Kerry Washington 23:41 Mm.

Jay Shetty 23:41 I think there's parts of me-

Kerry Washington 23:42 Mm

Jay Shetty 23:42 ... that have grappled with that. And if you, if you don't mind,

Jay Shetty 23:45 I'd love to offer you what you asked for earlier, and you were saying you'd love-

Kerry Washington 23:47 Yes

Jay Shetty 23:47 ... to hear my thoughts on it.

Kerry Washington 23:48 Yes. Both as a coach but also as somebody who, um, 'cause I feel like I'm here, I should get free coaching.

Jay Shetty 23:53 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 23:54 But also as somebody who, um, who is navigating the, the combination of the material world and the spiritual world-

Jay Shetty 24:02 Mm

Kerry Washington 24:02 ... and, and h- you know, living in both of those spaces.

Jay Shetty 24:05 Yeah. So from a, from a coaching or even spiritual perspective too because all my coaching is, is of that-

Kerry Washington 24:11 Yeah

Jay Shetty 24:11 ... type. So the Sanskrit word for this is dharma, and dharma very loosely can be put to purpose, but really what dharma is is almost like an inherent calling that you can't separate from yourself. It is so- In deep alignment and centered with who you are at the core-

Kerry Washington 24:31 Mm

Jay Shetty 24:32 ... that even if you try and push it away, it just keeps-

Kerry Washington 24:35 It keeps calling you

Jay Shetty 24:35 ... pulling you back-

Kerry Washington 24:35 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 24:35 ... no matter, no matter what that is. And that isn't an activity. Like, it isn't a title. Like-

Kerry Washington 24:41 Mm

Jay Shetty 24:41 ... I think today we think of, like, purpose or passion as a job-

Kerry Washington 24:45 Mm

Jay Shetty 24:45 ... or a-

Kerry Washington 24:46 Right, like CEO is not a dharma [laughs]

Jay Shetty 24:48 Exactly, exactly. CEO or actor or actress-

Kerry Washington 24:51 Right, right

Jay Shetty 24:51 ... or, or podcaster or-

Kerry Washington 24:52 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 24:53 ... author is n- that's not your dharma. It's like you're an artist who expresses yourself through many different ways. You've written an amazing memoir. You've done TV. You produce. You tell stories. You know, you have a, you have two interview shows, podcasts, and Scripted. Like, those are just mediums and ... But what I'm getting to is that there's a part of you where performance and the expression of emotion through performance is so core to what helps you heal and live and-

Kerry Washington 25:26 Mm

Jay Shetty 25:26 ... breathe.

Kerry Washington 25:27 Mm, mm.

Jay Shetty 25:28 In whatever way it is, it doesn't always have to be in a TV or a film, there's some part of you that loves to express and loves to feel in that way, and you can probably define it better than me. And what I've found is that we're always trying to escape that-

Kerry Washington 25:44 Mm

Jay Shetty 25:45 ... because usually, in the same way as you were saying, because of the business aspects that make it seem dirtier, murkier-

Kerry Washington 25:55 Ah

Jay Shetty 25:55 ... less pure-

Kerry Washington 25:56 Uh-huh

Jay Shetty 25:56 ... because it comes from such a pure place.

Kerry Washington 25:58 Right.

Jay Shetty 25:59 It's not coming from the place of wanting to win.

Kerry Washington 26:01 Right.

Jay Shetty 26:01 It's not coming from the place of wanting to be the best. It's coming from the place of, like-

Kerry Washington 26:05 Service

Jay Shetty 26:06 ... service.

Kerry Washington 26:06 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 26:06 So this just needs to get out.

Kerry Washington 26:08 Mm.

Jay Shetty 26:09 And that's something that I've found that it's really hard to shake that because it's almost like God, the universe, wants you to use that in the service of others.

Kerry Washington 26:21 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 26:22 And so I've, I've rarely found ... So I've not found anyone, I think, that's been able to extract their dharma from themselves-

Kerry Washington 26:31 Mm

Jay Shetty 26:32 ... because it is inextractable. Like, it's-

Kerry Washington 26:34 Mm. It's you

Jay Shetty 26:35 ... it's you, and it's what-

Kerry Washington 26:37 It's your spiritual identity-

Jay Shetty 26:38 Yeah

Kerry Washington 26:39 ... it sounds like.

Jay Shetty 26:39 It's, it's, it's your ... It's almost like what would be considered your spiritual offering in the material world.

Kerry Washington 26:45 Mm.

Jay Shetty 26:46 It's what connects you to that spiritual world in the material world because without it-

Kerry Washington 26:53 Huh

Jay Shetty 26:53 ... and again, by the way, this is not a ... I'm just calling it out. This is specific to Kerry, and this is different for everyone. If you did give that up and you went off and tried all the other things, which you've obviously tried-

Kerry Washington 27:04 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 27:04 ... so you already know this. I don't even need to tell you. You can try it, and it's not that that isn't fulfilling. It's just that there's this thing that just keeps pulling you back. [laughs]

Kerry Washington 27:11 [laughs] It's like the, the boyfriend you can't quit.

Jay Shetty 27:14 Yeah. [laughs]

Kerry Washington 27:15 [laughs] It's just the spiritual boyfriend you can't quit.

Jay Shetty 27:18 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 27:19 That's my dharma.

Jay Shetty 27:21 I love it.

Kerry Washington 27:22 Yeah, I think for

Kerry Washington 27:23 me it might be some sort of, um ... There's something about the expression of emotional truth.

Jay Shetty 27:32 Mm.

Kerry Washington 27:32 It feels like my dharma is connected to holding space for emotional vulnerability or emotional truth, and I think in some ways that's why I grew up in a family where truth was kept from me because it's like I developed, like, a heat-seeking missile for, like, I'm gonna find the truth. I'm gonna know what it looks like. If I can't express it here, I have to express it here. It was like it was kept from me so that I would learn to cultivate it and honor it and hold space for it, and I ... Like, I think about even when I'm working as a director, often my note to an actor in a scene is like, "I just, I don't believe you yet."

Jay Shetty 28:14 Mm.

Kerry Washington 28:14 Right? Like, I, I wanna believe you-

Jay Shetty 28:16 Wow

Kerry Washington 28:16 ... more. And I think there's something about, like, I survived, um, a childhood where I learned what truth doesn't look like, and so I'm really aware of what it does look like now.

Jay Shetty 28:31 Mm.

Kerry Washington 28:31 And I ... It's, it's so important to me.

Jay Shetty 28:36 Yeah, that's ... No, that's so powerful, and it's, uh, it's almost like that, that's the acceptance that, you know, even I've had to make. Like, I think for me it was on a very deep level the business or the systematic approach to art which you have to take if you want-

Kerry Washington 29:00 Mm, mm

Jay Shetty 29:00 ... your work to scale-

Kerry Washington 29:02 Uh-huh

Jay Shetty 29:02 ... or you want your work, like you're saying, to re-

Kerry Washington 29:04 The discipline

Jay Shetty 29:05 ... the discipline of it or the busine- the, the business of it-

Kerry Washington 29:07 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 29:07 ... as you were saying, the parts that we don't enjoy.

Kerry Washington 29:09 Right, right.

Jay Shetty 29:10 Like, the ... is actually what at least from a very Eastern spiritual perspective would be like that's the stuff that purifies you-

Kerry Washington 29:19 Mm

Jay Shetty 29:19 ... of the ego that comes from art.

Kerry Washington 29:22 Ah, yes, of course. Of course. It's, I mean, it's funny because then when you say it, it's like, yes, this is what you learn in the ashram, right? Like, this is what you learn in a yoga practice, that, like, you don't get to have the transcendent moment at the end of practice sitting in meditation until you do the 20 sun salutations.

Jay Shetty 29:43 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 29:43 Like, they get you there.

Jay Shetty 29:44 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 29:44 They open you up. They, they get you closer. It's the, it is the discipline that makes room for the, the goodness. If we just, like, woke up out of bed and were immediately transcendent without any discipline, we probably ... I, I would probably be a pretty horrible person to be around. I'd be like, "I'm amazing."

Jay Shetty 30:03 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 30:04 "Everything comes so easily for me." Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:07 Or, or the opposite, where we end up in complete, like, dullness and-

Kerry Washington 30:11 Ah

Jay Shetty 30:12 ... ruin, where we're like, "It doesn't work, and I can't do anything."

Kerry Washington 30:16 Ah.

Jay Shetty 30:16 And I ... And, and it's, it's either/or.

Kerry Washington 30:18 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 30:18 And, and I find that- When you have to reflect on the competitive aspect and purify that desire-

Kerry Washington 30:25 Hmm

Jay Shetty 30:25 ... to be competitive, it gets you closer to your truth.

Kerry Washington 30:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:28 When you have to sit in it and go, "I don't care if I'm not Tom Cruise, I'm happy being Tom Hanks. I don't care if I'm not Tom Hanks, I'm happy being Tom Cruise."

Kerry Washington 30:35 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 30:35 That is the purification of getting you closer to your truth-

Kerry Washington 30:38 Yes

Jay Shetty 30:38 ... whereas if you never had to do that activity-

Kerry Washington 30:40 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 30:41 ... you almost could live in ignorance.

Kerry Washington 30:44 Oh, interesting.

Jay Shetty 30:44 And ignorance is bliss-

Kerry Washington 30:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 30:46 ... well, if that makes sense.

Kerry Washington 30:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:47 Again, I'm not saying I agree with how it's all done or run. I'm saying that's how I think you're trying to operate as a, as a warrior in a, on a war field as, as, you know, like you're, you're relishing the battle of it-

Kerry Washington 31:00 Mm

Jay Shetty 31:01 ... because you notice that the battle is actually forcing you to go more inward.

Kerry Washington 31:05 Right.

Jay Shetty 31:05 Because if you lived it outwardly-

Kerry Washington 31:07 Mm

Jay Shetty 31:08 ... it's just too much-

Kerry Washington 31:09 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:09 ... if that makes any sense at all.

Kerry Washington 31:11 It does. It does.

Jay Shetty 31:11 Yeah, yeah. Anyway, but-

Kerry Washington 31:13 Hmm

Jay Shetty 31:13 ... so [laughs] we, we got lost on that.

Kerry Washington 31:15 Love it. Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 31:16 But no, I, I really appreciate where we're going with this conversation because I do think that, that I think all of us are caught within that battle for the truth in our own lives and our own truth in different ways.

Kerry Washington 31:26 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 31:26 This, this

Jay Shetty 31:27 was interesting to me because I'm, I'm also picking out things that I think a lot of our community and audience can like.

Kerry Washington 31:34 Great.

Jay Shetty 31:34 So there was one thing that said, "Being busy is one of the ways I create a sense of safety and control during times when I feel there is none."

Kerry Washington 31:43 Hmm.

Jay Shetty 31:43 When I read that, I was like, wow.

Kerry Washington 31:44 Right? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 31:45 Like, I, I ... the amount of people that I know-

Kerry Washington 31:47 To every workaholic out there

Jay Shetty 31:48 ... literally. And, and it's, it's hard to even become aware of that because there's joy in that and there's-

Kerry Washington 31:54 That's right

Jay Shetty 31:55 ... how have you allowed yourself to become less busy? Have you allowed yourself to become less busy? Or, or what has that awareness led to?

Kerry Washington 32:02 Yeah. I, I do ... I feel like it was im- ... This was a ... The period that I wrote this book, you know, what happened was about five years ago my parents gave me some new information.

Jay Shetty 32:12 I wanna talk about that.

Kerry Washington 32:13 Yeah. About kind of, about me and, and our family and, and how I came to be. Um, and it, that new information kind of turned my world upside down, and it came at a really interesting time in my life because I was just ending seven seasons on this, like, crazy successful hit show playing an iconic character. And, um, I was in many ways asking, like, who am I now? But I did have this fantasy that when that show ended I would suddenly have a lot of free time because that show I was filming 16 hours a day, you know, I don't know, nine, 10 months out of the year, and I was ... You know, within the life of that show I got married and had two children, and now I have three children. My husband came with one, and it was just like there was no downtime and I thought, "When the show ends I'll have some downtime." And I remember [laughs] like a year after the show ending I was like, "Oh, I might be the problem." Like, I don't think the show is the problem because I still have no downtime-

Jay Shetty 33:14 Mm

Kerry Washington 33:14 ... and I am not the number one on the call sheet of a hit primetime drama. But I was finding other ways to fill my time and still finding moments where I was feeling overwhelmed and overworked. And, um, so I really started to think about how I ... If I was the problem, if I was the common denimi- denominator, if I was the issue, then how could I also maybe be the solution? And I think the truth is I do, I do love to be busy, but I, I'm trying to check the intention of what that busyness is about.

Jay Shetty 33:47 Mm.

Kerry Washington 33:47 So making sure that I'm not saying yes to things because I just want to be in a constant state of cortisol s- [laughs] spikes and, you know, not getting enough sleep and just feeling like I'm on a hamster wheel because then I don't have to deal with some other stuff. I'm trying to have the yeses come from purpose and passion, and to have more nos, to say no more often so that there's room to say yes for things that make me feel not busy but driven and generous and like I'm contributing.

Jay Shetty 34:22 Mm.

Kerry Washington 34:23 You know, not just accomplishing but really contributing.

Jay Shetty 34:27 Mm.

Kerry Washington 34:27 Giving of myself.

Jay Shetty 34:29 Mm.

Jay Shetty 34:30 And I think that, that feels like a, a tough, tough thing to do-

Kerry Washington 34:34 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:34 ... when you've been such a high performing person-

Kerry Washington 34:37 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 34:37 ... for a long, long time, and all of a sudden you have to reevaluate what performance means-

Kerry Washington 34:43 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:43 ... and what high performance means.

Kerry Washington 34:45 Yes. And even start to redefine what success means, right?

Jay Shetty 34:48 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 34:48 Like, I think ... It's like we say to these corporations, like, your success can't just be about the bottom line. Like, are you also thinking about diversity and inclusion? Are you also thinking about the environment in your bottom ... you know, in your definition of success? And I feel like I'm trying to do that personally also. Like, think about success in the material world, but factor into that success my life as a wife-

Jay Shetty 35:09 Mm

Kerry Washington 35:09 ... my life as a mother, my life as a daughter.

Jay Shetty 35:12 Mm.

Kerry Washington 35:12 And I think that too is part of what made me wanna write the book, was to kind of be able to have the narrative of my life-

Jay Shetty 35:19 Mm

Kerry Washington 35:20 ... really reflect on all of it. Because when I sold a book idea, I, a few ... Right when the show ended I sold this book idea that was like, "Here are the 10 things I learned about life from this character."

Jay Shetty 35:30 Mm.

Kerry Washington 35:30 And my parents had just given me this information about myself, but I, I was like, "I'm not gonna deal with that. I'm gonna go [laughs] sell this other book idea." And, um, and that felt like a book I could write 'cause it was not really about me, it was about the character, and it was like very sticky, cute life lessons kind of a book. But every time I sat down to write, it, that didn't feel honest.

Jay Shetty 35:51 Mm.

Kerry Washington 35:51 It was like I have this new information, I have this new curiosity, I have this new awareness, and if I'm gonna write something about myself, then it has to be that. And I was like, "Well, I'm not writing that," so I tried to give the money back to the publisher [laughs] and was like, "I'm definitely not writing that." Um, but eventually I did.

Jay Shetty 36:09 Mm.

Kerry Washington 36:09 Eventually I was like, what if I just try to write that, if I try to write what the story is not just in terms of the movies and the TV shows and the ... even not just the activism and the leadership, but really, like- What it might mean to feel like a successful human-

Jay Shetty 36:26 Mm

Kerry Washington 36:26 ... like somebody who's living in truth, you know?

Jay Shetty 36:29 Mm.

Jay Shetty 36:30 Do you want to share, and I know the book goes into this in depth, do you want to share, because you've referred to it a few times, like-

Kerry Washington 36:35 Yeah

Jay Shetty 36:35 ... the news that you received at 43?

Kerry Washington 36:38 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:39 And obviously you talk about it at length in the book, but I, I'd love to give that to people so that they have a context-

Kerry Washington 36:44 Sure. Yes

Jay Shetty 36:44 ... of what you mean

Kerry Washington 36:45 And if you don't want the spoiler-

Jay Shetty 36:46 Yeah

Kerry Washington 36:46 ... then turn off the podcast now.

Jay Shetty 36:47 Yes, this is the moment to-

Kerry Washington 36:48 It is a reveal-

Jay Shetty 36:49 Yes

Kerry Washington 36:49 ... so if you don't want it, yeah

Jay Shetty 36:51 And I, and I, and that's ... And I recommend that too. Like, yeah, don't-

Kerry Washington 36:54 If you don't want to know that

Jay Shetty 36:55 ... just, just skip over the next, skip over the next three minutes

Kerry Washington 36:57 [laughs] I'm such a fan, I know that, like, you have those time codes at the bottom.

Jay Shetty 37:01 Yes, yes, yes.

Kerry Washington 37:01 So just skip to the next section.

Jay Shetty 37:02 We'll put that on the time code.

Kerry Washington 37:04 Yes. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 37:04 We'll put skip now if spoiler alert.

Kerry Washington 37:07 Yes. Okay.

Jay Shetty 37:07 There we go.

Kerry Washington 37:08 So, um, so my parents sat me down, um, and told me that, um, that my dad is not my biological father, that I was born from a sperm donor. Um, and this was shocking to me, and also not [laughs] right? Like, it, it was that thing of like, I was shocked because it was not the story I had been told and not the story we had been living, but also it made so much sense to me because there had been this sense of like I, I felt like I didn't know myself, and I felt a disconnect with my parents, and I felt a disconnect with myself. And I never knew what to ascribe that to. I never knew why, and suddenly, it, it was like the pieces all fell into place. It was actually like, it was like there had been this beautiful puzzle on the wall of our home that had this one wrong piece in it, but it was close enough that everybody just pretended that the painting was perfect. You know, everybody was like, "It's gorgeous. It's beautiful." If you got close enough, you could see-

Jay Shetty 38:16 Mm

Kerry Washington 38:16 ... that there was a missing puzzle piece, but since we all ignored it, we all kind of forgot about it. And when my parents told me, it was like somebody finally took that wrong puzzle piece that had been, like, jammed into place and pulled it out, and we got to all be honest about, like, that piece was wrong. And we don't even know what the missing piece is, 'cause I don't know who the donor is.

Jay Shetty 38:38 Mm.

Kerry Washington 38:38 But at least now the hon- the painting is honest.

Jay Shetty 38:41 Mm.

Kerry Washington 38:41 And I can maybe try to find that missing puzzle piece, but even just to know that the painting now is honest-

Jay Shetty 38:48 Mm

Kerry Washington 38:48 ... felt like a gift.

Jay Shetty 38:50 And why did they wait till 43?

Kerry Washington 38:52 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 38:52 Like, why?

Kerry Washington 38:53 I think I was younger than 43 even. I was like-

Jay Shetty 38:54 Oh, was it? Yeah

Kerry Washington 38:55 ... yeah, like, 41 maybe.

Jay Shetty 38:56 Mm.

Kerry Washington 38:56 Um, I mean, my dad, if he had his druthers, would have never told me, which is in many ways, like, infuriating, but also so beautiful because to my dad, I am his, and he is mine, and there's no point in acknowledging any other truth. I mean, even to today, he'll, he acknowledges it. He's had to come to terms with it, but it doesn't matter, and in a really beautiful way. Like, I am his, and he is mine. He is my dad. He will always be my dad. Um, but if he had his choice, we would ... You and I would not be having this conversation. This book would not be written.

Jay Shetty 39:34 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 39:34 Like, we would ... This would be the ... We would just be living in-

Jay Shetty 39:38 Mm

Kerry Washington 39:38 ... this other reality that, which is, you know, I'm his and, uh, that we belong to each other, which is true. It's just there's more complexity, right? There's more nuance. There's ... It's not a binary. It happens to be that, like, yes, we belong to each other, and there is this other figure that is 50% of my genetics.

Jay Shetty 39:58 Mm.

Kerry Washington 39:58 They waited to tell me. My mom said that she was going to write a note for me and leave it in a safe deposit box so that eventually when they were gone, I would have this truth. I'm so glad that that's not what happened. I also wonder, like, when she was gonna do that, 'cause [laughs] at the point that we were having this conversation, she had had cancer three times and was, like, knocking on 80. So I was like-

Jay Shetty 40:20 Wow

Kerry Washington 40:20 ... exactly when was this [laughs] note gonna happen, right? Um, so I think, I think it was hard. I think they didn't intend to be duplicitous or they weren't-

Jay Shetty 40:32 Of course not

Kerry Washington 40:32 ... trying to lie to me. I think they ... It happened at a time, I mean, my parents were way ahead of the curve. There were no ... You know, when I was conceived in '77, '76, there were no sperm banks. This was not something that people did. It was like a highly experimental, very secretive thing. There was no frozen sperm. It was like, you know, it was all very-

Jay Shetty 40:53 Mm

Kerry Washington 40:53 ... very cutting edge, and, um, they were innovators and ahead of their time and risk takers. And nobody knew that 40 years later you'd be able to take a DNA test and know where you come from. It just was like, "This is a secret we will take to our graves. There's no point in telling her. We need to keep our family unit together, and we don't need to upset her, and, um, we don't need to embarrass our family." And they eventually told me because I was gonna do a show. Skip Gates has a show on PBS called Finding Your Roots, where they research your family background, and, um, they do it a lot through record keeping and census reports, but they also do DNA tests.

Jay Shetty 41:31 Wow.

Kerry Washington 41:31 And so I told my parents I was gonna do the show, and they were really excited, and then I handed them one of these commercial DNA kits, and my dad started having panic attacks. And I was like, "What's happening?" And, and so eventually they-

Jay Shetty 41:44 Mm-hmm

Kerry Washington 41:44 ... had to tell me why they didn't wanna do the show and, and what the truth of our family history was.

Jay Shetty 41:49 That's what it took.

Kerry Washington 41:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:51 Yeah. How have you trained yourself to be able to ... I love what you said earlier. You were like, "He wouldn't have told me if it wasn't, you know, for this," but you would've found it infuriating, but also the most sweet and beautiful thing.

Kerry Washington 42:03 [laughs] Yeah.

Jay Shetty 42:04 And so how have you allowed yourself to accept two things existing at the same time?

Kerry Washington 42:10 Mm.

Jay Shetty 42:10 Because there's a beautiful statement by F. Scott Fitzgerald where he says that ... The paraphrased version is that, you know, one of the greatest skills or talents of the human mind is the ability to hold two seemingly opposite ideas-

Kerry Washington 42:27 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 42:28 ... and allow them to coexist.

Kerry Washington 42:30 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 42:30 And that's such a I feel like that's the art that's missing in the world today.

Kerry Washington 42:36 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 42:36 The ability to accept that something can be painful and beautiful-

Kerry Washington 42:40 Yes

Jay Shetty 42:40 ... that something can be true and untrue in certain ways.

Kerry Washington 42:44 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 42:44 That ... And it feels like even though you were, like, looking for this truth and this puzzle piece, and you have every reason because you've known it for your whole ... Like-

Kerry Washington 42:52 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 42:52 ... it's so d- like, you make it look so elegant, but inside your heart, from what you-

Kerry Washington 42:56 It was such a struggle, yes. Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 42:56 ... it was such a struggle to be like, "What is this one thing?"

Kerry Washington 42:58 What is wrong with me?

Jay Shetty 43:00 The-

Kerry Washington 43:00 And what's wrong with my life?

Jay Shetty 43:01 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 43:01 And what is the secret? And yeah.

Jay Shetty 43:03 And then you find it, but then you still go ... You have the grace to say, "I understand." Like, "He is my ... He is me, and I am hi-" Like, that beautiful statement that you just repeated twice there, I'm just ... What has allowed you? How have you developed that ability to let two truths coexist?

Kerry Washington 43:17 I don't know where it comes from.

Jay Shetty 43:19 It comes throughout the book. I see it throughout the book.

Kerry Washington 43:21 That's so interesting. I don't know where it was born. I mean, I do know ... I think maybe one of the first places that I started to think about it consciously, again, weirdly, was in my yoga practice, right?

Jay Shetty 43:32 Mm.

Kerry Washington 43:32 Because you learn in yoga practice that you must have this combination of being, um, steady and strong but also flexible and yielding, that that's ... The very practice of yoga only works if you can tap into the surrender of each pose w- combined with the commitment and strength for each pose. So that's one of the places where I think I started to learn what that feels like in my body and, and think about it. But, you know, as I'm sitting here, even just my commitment to say, and to help my dad say, it's okay for me to have two energies in my life that represent father, right? Like, that this donor, this stranger, I have no idea who this person is. There's a whole team of people on the search, but I, I don't know who this donor is. That that ... But that person, because of the amount of genetic material that they've poured into me, and therefore all kind of coding, that person represents some of the father energy in my story and in my life. But my dad is my dad, right? Like, he's also ... He represents the father energy in my life. He is the man who raised me, and he has loved me like a father, and he is also father. So y- you know, even just ... Like, there's no way for me to live my life without embracing those truths.

Jay Shetty 45:04 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 45:04 It just is the fact of my life. Maybe there's something about also, like, giving myself to these characters and, like, any one time having to be, like, 100% that character and also 100% me.

Jay Shetty 45:18 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 45:19 Um, that dance between, like-

Jay Shetty 45:21 Mm

Kerry Washington 45:21 ... losing myself and-

Jay Shetty 45:22 Mm-hmm

Kerry Washington 45:22 ... coming back to myself and having space to be Kerry but also Olivia-

Jay Shetty 45:27 Yeah

Kerry Washington 45:27 ... or whoever, that might be part of it, too. I don't know. But-

Jay Shetty 45:30 Yeah

Kerry Washington 45:30 ... but I do ... I know that at times I've seen this as a weakness that I, that I'm not more decisive or more, um, have more critical thinking skills. Um, but I, I do think it, it's, it is just a part of me that I hold on to multiple truths.

Jay Shetty 45:49 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 45:49 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 45:49 I, I would say that it ... My humble observation just from our conversation and reading your work is that your quest for the truth has actually ended in finding truths.

Kerry Washington 46:02 Oh, yes. Right.

Jay Shetty 46:03 Like, like rec-

Kerry Washington 46:04 Right, because that's it.

Jay Shetty 46:05 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 46:05 That's right, right?

Jay Shetty 46:06 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 46:06 Like, my ... I, I feel like I'm finally able to tell my truth, but there's also this awareness as I sit across from my parents that, like, this is not the book they would have written.

Jay Shetty 46:15 Mm.

Kerry Washington 46:15 And their book is no less true.

Jay Shetty 46:17 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 46:18 It's just that's their truth, and this is mine.

Jay Shetty 46:21 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 46:21 Yeah, that's, that's ... Oh, that's interesting.

Jay Shetty 46:23 Yeah, and it's like that core of just being it. I don't know. There's something beautiful in, in seeing you find your truths and-

Kerry Washington 46:30 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 46:30 ... and being like, "Oh, there's, there's actually so many more."

Kerry Washington 46:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:33 And, and there's so many versions, and, and that almost is more comforting and, and kind of reassuring that the version you have is not untrue. As you were saying earlier at the beginning, you were like, "I was taught to, like, abandon my truth."

Kerry Washington 46:47 That's right.

Jay Shetty 46:48 Because it ... Again, someone had said, "This is the truth."

Kerry Washington 46:50 That's right. The oth- because the other truths were too threatening.

Jay Shetty 46:53 Correct.

Kerry Washington 46:54 It's funny. I talk in the book about how when my parents told me ... You know, I had spent my whole life saying, "I love you," to my dad, and it was true.

Jay Shetty 47:01 Mm.

Kerry Washington 47:01 I loved my dad before this revelation. But when I got this information, in that moment I understood that this was an opportunity for a different kind of love between us-

Jay Shetty 47:14 Mm

Kerry Washington 47:14 ... because he had only heard me say, "I love you," on the condition of a lie up until that point.

Jay Shetty 47:21 Mm.

Kerry Washington 47:21 Up until that point, every time I said, "I love you," it was passing through this veil of pretending.

Jay Shetty 47:29 Mm.

Kerry Washington 47:29 And so there was a part of his unconscious that was made to believe, because she thinks I am her biological father, she loves me.

Jay Shetty 47:36 Mm.

Kerry Washington 47:37 And once I had this truth-

Jay Shetty 47:39 Mm

Kerry Washington 47:39 ... I knew I now have the opportunity-

Jay Shetty 47:41 Wow

Kerry Washington 47:41 ... to show my father what it feels like to actually be loved unconditionally.

Jay Shetty 47:46 [exhales]

Kerry Washington 47:46 From this point on, every time I say, "I love you," it's despite this truth that you thought was too horrible to bear.

Jay Shetty 47:55 That just hit me.

Kerry Washington 47:56 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 47:56 That, that-

Kerry Washington 47:58 It felt like such an opportunity-

Jay Shetty 47:59 Yeah

Kerry Washington 47:59 ... for healing.

Jay Shetty 48:00 Yeah, that part. Yeah.

Kerry Washington 48:00 You know? For us to be in the messy truth and still say, "I love you," is so much better than to be in the pretending-

Jay Shetty 48:08 Mm-hmm

Kerry Washington 48:09 ... and to be loved, 'cause when you're pretending and you're loved, then you're loved for your pretense. You're not loved for your humanity.

Jay Shetty 48:15 And you can just imagine what that felt like to him even.

Kerry Washington 48:18 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 48:19 That's ... It's ... Oh, wow, that ... Everyone's just gotta replay that part again-

Kerry Washington 48:23 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 48:23 ... and again and again because ... No, that's the part you want. No spoilers in that part. Just listen, because that is such a, that is such a beautiful point, Kerry. Like, that is- That is so powerful what you just said

Kerry Washington 48:34 It's what we all deserve, right? It's like we- it's what we all crave, I think, is to be able to, like, be our true selves and for that version of us to be loved.

Jay Shetty 48:43 Mm.

Kerry Washington 48:43 Not the, the version where we put on the fancy clothes or we ... It's like me at my most naked, most honest, most vulnerable, if I'm still loved then, then that's real love.

Jay Shetty 48:56 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 48:56 If I have to work or to deserve the love, then it's, it's not based on me.

Jay Shetty 49:04 Mm.

Kerry Washington 49:05 You know?

Jay Shetty 49:05 Mm. Yeah, because you said in the book, before we got onto that, I was gonna read

Jay Shetty 49:10 these parts where you talked about, "When I started talking about my family in therapy for the first time in college, my concerns and complaints were exclusively about my dad."

Kerry Washington 49:17 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 49:18 And you talk about how different we were, how often we disconnected, and you said, "Like many 18-year-olds, I thought I knew everything and my dad knew nothing," which is so true.

Kerry Washington 49:28 [laughs] Yes.

Jay Shetty 49:29 And then you go on to say, "Even as a young child, I felt that I was never who my dad needed me to be."

Kerry Washington 49:34 Mm.

Jay Shetty 49:34 "I knew he really wanted a son, and that they weren't having any more children. I got the sense that I could soften the blow somehow by being a daughter who was prettier or smarter or braver or more successful, but even that didn't work."

Kerry Washington 49:47 Mm.

Jay Shetty 49:47 What, what do you think that wasn't working? What's that part like?

Kerry Washington 49:50 I think what I was picking up and interpreting as me not being enough was really the disconnect between us caused by lack of truth. There was always, like, a moat, an emotional moat between who I was and who my parents were. Like, I would watch my mother interact with girlfriends of mine, friends I would bring home from school, and people would tell my mother everything. People were so close to my parents, and I always felt like there was a little bit of arm's length. Um, and so, you know, as a kid, I thought, "That must be me. It must be that I'm not good enough or pretty enough or successful enough or thin enough or whatever it is, accomplished enough." And so I thought, "Maybe if I'm better, if I do more, if I accomplish more, if I'm busier, then maybe I'll be able to cross the moat." But the moat had nothing to do with me. The moat was their own protection because y- you know, I realize now in hindsight, I would say, like, so many people are, like, best friends with their mothers. They talk to their mothers every day. My mother could never afford to be best friends with me because there was a secret that she was never gonna reveal to me. You can't be intimate best friends with somebody who your fundamental truth of who they are, you're keeping that from them. So I was interpreting this emotional distance as being my fault, as being me not being good enough. But really, it had to do with them trying to manage the relationship so that they could protect me from something that they thought I wouldn't be able to handle or just that would kind of destroy my sense of self or our sense of family. So it was this loving act on their part of trying to keep me okay and keep our family okay, but it, it did cause this, this break and this schism between us, and I just, I thought, I thought I could fix it. I thought if I could be better, I could fix it. And it was in learning the truth of this revelation that I was able to say, like, "No, I'm, I'm okay. I'm enough." It wasn't about me.

Jay Shetty 51:50 Mm.

Kerry Washington 51:51 And now, now I talk to my parents every day. [laughs] Like, now it's a different ... The greatest gift of this, these few years, and even writing this book, is that I am so much closer to my parents than I have ever been before because now there's nothing to hide from each other. There's nothing to ... There's nothing we're trying to protect each other from anymore. There's no more performance. There's no more pretending, and so now the intimacy is so real.

Jay Shetty 52:19 Yeah, and it's almost like you, you want that for everyone, but you know how hard it is to get there.

Kerry Washington 52:25 It's work.

Jay Shetty 52:25 And it's like, yeah, it's-

Kerry Washington 52:26 It was, it was ... You know, we went into family therapy for a while.

Jay Shetty 52:30 Wow. Yeah, that's incredible.

Kerry Washington 52:31 We, um ... Yeah. All four of us, my parents and my husband and I, we, we would ... We, like, unpacked a lot of this together, and to be on the other side of that, it's extraordinary. You know, I talk in the book about how in- during the pandemic my mom was diagnosed with cancer again, and this time around, how I was able to be present for her and with her because there was no longer an arm's length. There was no longer this moat between us. It was the greatest gift to really be able to feel like I, I now, in this moment when we're faced with mortality, like, I really know her and she really knows me. And I know myself now to bring myself to this relationship fully. It just, it was the greatest gift.

Jay Shetty 53:17 Mm. And it almost feels now that if you are to continue playing roles and performances, that you know who you are already, so you couldn't lose yourself in a role or ...

Kerry Washington 53:30 Yeah. I think there'll be ... I'm excited. I've had, I've taken on different characters since getting this information, and it feels like I'm able to go deeper.

Jay Shetty 53:40 Mm.

Kerry Washington 53:40 It feels like I'm able to bring more of myself and my truth. I'm more connected to myself, and I'm ... It's, it's been ... It's allowed me to really have a deeper level of emotional truth. That's what I think about when I watch certain performances-

Jay Shetty 53:57 Mm

Kerry Washington 53:57 ... you know, in the last five years. I think I'm able to bring more courage, more-

Jay Shetty 54:02 Mm

Kerry Washington 54:02 ... more personal knowing, more vulnerability because I'm not operating out of fear anymore.

Jay Shetty 54:07 Mm.

Kerry Washington 54:08 I'm not looking to these characters to fix me or to teach me about myself. I'm actually able to devote myself to them fully. And I've thought a lot about, um ... It's so funny 'cause when you're interviewing, you'll see eventually when you're interviewing for all these schools with your kids, [laughs] they'll ask you, like, how the kid was born or, like, the circumstances of their birth. Like, to enter into, like, a preschool and you're like, what are you talking about? And

Jay Shetty 54:35 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 54:36 Like, why is that any of your business? They're here to learn their ABCs, right?

Jay Shetty 54:39 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 54:39 But there's so much imprinting that happens to us in utero, and I do think it's so powerful for us to go back and uncover the story of who we are and how we came to be. It's why, you know, Street You Grew Up On, it's like that, like, what is-

Jay Shetty 54:58 It's beautiful

Kerry Washington 54:58 ... your once upon a time? And I thought about it a lot in thinking about my story because I think... I've thought, like, how afraid my mother must have been. Here this woman was, like, carrying a baby that she had no idea, she had no idea where the sperm came from. Back then, there was no fancy catalog to tell you, like, what college they went to or what, [laughs] like nothing.

Jay Shetty 55:22 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 55:22 The two things they said to her doctor were like, "We'd love him to be healthy, and we'd love him to be Black."

Jay Shetty 55:27 Mm.

Kerry Washington 55:27 Because if he was Black, then they wouldn't have to tell people. It could remain a secret. Um, but she must have been terrified. And she knew also, like, as she was carrying me, she began carrying a secret that she was gonna carry for four decades.

Jay Shetty 55:44 Oof. Wow.

Kerry Washington 55:45 And so I was like, my twin was shame. Like, I was in utero with shame. We were growing together, like, in this pact of secrecy, and she literally never told a soul. My parents lit- not... She's, she has four sisters. She just told them this year, this spring. Um, she never told her best friend. She never told anyone. They're, they are literally telling people now 'cause they're like, "Listen, this book is coming out, and I want you to hear this thing from me."

Jay Shetty 56:10 Mm.

Kerry Washington 56:10 So that fear and shame that was growing inside her, that was the soup that I was stewing in, you know, that I was cooking in, and I, I think we get born with, with those, with that identity, and, and we get to navigate it.

Jay Shetty 56:26 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 56:26 You know?

Jay Shetty 56:27 No, thank you for sharing

Jay Shetty 56:28 that part too because it makes sense with when you said you wished you were not an only child and your parents responded, "You were long wished for a child."

Kerry Washington 56:36 Mm.

Jay Shetty 56:37 "You were not easy to conceive," and, like, that idea of just it's that beauty of they wanted you so bad. Like, they-

Kerry Washington 56:44 You see, even like-

Jay Shetty 56:45 Yeah

Kerry Washington 56:45 ... I joke about my dad's, you know, his unwillingness to deal with the truth of how I came to be, right? Like, it's so beautiful, not just because it's a testament of how much he loves me, but when my parents sat down across from that doctor, they said, "You have two options." Looking at my dad's sperm, "You have two options. You can either adopt, or you can try this new thing, artificial insemination," right? And it was my dad's ego, it was their desire to keep a secret that made them choose artificial insemination over adoption.

Jay Shetty 57:21 Mm.

Kerry Washington 57:22 So if my parents hadn't had that ego, if my dad hadn't been navigating his pride, I literally wouldn't be here. There'd be some lucky kid who would've been adopted by them and raised by this beautiful couple and all the stuff they were navigating, but it was actually their pride and secrecy that put me on this earth. So I have to be grateful for it. I have to be grateful for their stuff, their f- you know, the, the emotional stuff that they're navigating 'cause it, it was my pathway to being on this planet.

Jay Shetty 57:52 Mm. Well, I find that... I said this to you when we met the other day when we did, um, The Street You Grew Up On-

Kerry Washington 57:58 Yeah

Jay Shetty 57:58 ... which, which I really felt was such a gift. And-

Kerry Washington 58:00 Oh, thank you

Jay Shetty 58:01 ... if anyone who's listening or watching h- I'm sure you watch already, but if you haven't, go and subscribe to, uh, Kerry's YouTube show because I found it to be such a gift to go back there.

Kerry Washington 58:12 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 58:13 You've written a memoir now, so you've really gone back there.

Kerry Washington 58:15 Yeah, I've really gone back. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 58:16 I've, I've never written one, but I find the act of going back there, like you reminded me of so many things-

Kerry Washington 58:22 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 58:22 ... that I've completely forgot.

Kerry Washington 58:24 Yeah. It was so fun to watch you have these revelations-

Jay Shetty 58:27 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 58:27 ... about where you come from.

Jay Shetty 58:28 So many things that-

Kerry Washington 58:29 Yeah

Jay Shetty 58:29 ... you just... Your memory's such a fascinating thing in and of itself.

Kerry Washington 58:34 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 58:34 But I said this to you that day when I saw you, and, and I'm s- repeating it now because I want my... I said it offline to you, but I want my community to hear it.

Jay Shetty 58:43 I found your take on your challenges so refreshing and unique because you'd be valid in just being upset.

Kerry Washington 58:54 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 58:55 And, and there's nothing wrong with that. And, and-

Kerry Washington 58:57 Right

Jay Shetty 58:57 ... if there was someone else who was, I become... It's so valid, but then when you hear someone who's seeing it from multiple perspectives... And there was also this, the most challenging part of this book to read was when you talked about the encounters you were having while you were sleeping.

Kerry Washington 59:13 Mm, mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 59:14 And even in this, and I'll let you explain it, but even when I was reading through that, I was just like, "How is Kerry even explaining this with so much compassion and so much grace?" And I was like, you just have this capacity to hold pain and compassion at the same time, and I think that that is so rare, and I just wanna-

Kerry Washington 59:34 Mm

Jay Shetty 59:34 ... acknowledge it and honor it.

Kerry Washington 59:36 Mm.

Jay Shetty 59:36 That's not a weakness at all. I think it's really powerful, like, to be able to do that.

Kerry Washington 59:40 Mm.

Jay Shetty 59:41 And when I was reading that, I was just, I- you were blowing my mind. I was just like, "How is a human... "

Kerry Washington 59:45 Mm.

Jay Shetty 59:45 I, I really find that, you know, you read about people who've gone through some of the most horrific things in the world, and, and they live that way. And, and then, yeah, I was in awe reading that, honestly. Like-

Kerry Washington 59:58 Yeah. I, I think when I'm, as I'm listening to, I think the danger for me has always been in not having the anger part.

Jay Shetty 1:00:06 Right.

Kerry Washington 1:00:07 Right?

Jay Shetty 1:00:07 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:00:07 That that's... It's funny. It's like I, the compassion comes more easily, [laughs] weirdly. I don't know if it's the people-pleasing or the being an only child or whatever it is, the, maybe it's being an artist, but the compassion part comes first. The journey for me has been allowing myself to have the anger, allowing myself to, um, create healthy boundaries for myself, to allow for the pain and the grief at times, and then to still make room for the compassion.

Jay Shetty 1:00:42 Th- that's what I felt.

Kerry Washington 1:00:42 Right? Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:00:43 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:00:43 Yeah. To be able to, like- Hold space for both. Um, and I, I think a lot of it is selfish. I don't wanna be a person who operates from toxicity. You know, when I'm, when I'm carrying ... When I'm only operating from resentment, it's poison for me. To hold space for loving myself and loving other people in all of our imperfection [laughs] is, for me, what feels doable. It actually helps me have more grace for myself when I'm able to have grace for other people. And I, I talk about that Pema Chodron idea-

Jay Shetty 1:01:20 Mm-hmm

Kerry Washington 1:01:20 ... of, like, the person that causes you the most pain, that's the person that sat with you in heaven before you came to earth and said, like, "I love you so much, I'm gonna be the one that hurts you, that forces you to grow. I love you so much, I'm gonna be your enemy that teaches you what love looks like." And I think, I think we are really, really all doing the best we can. And when I, when I'm not able to have compassion, my life is like this hose, right? And the emotions are coming through the hose. If I choke the hose from compassion for somebody else, I choke it from myself, too.

Jay Shetty 1:01:55 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:01:55 Um, and I just ... I wanna let it run free. I wanna l- I wanna let the goodness go through so that I'm able to give it to myself and others-

Jay Shetty 1:02:03 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:02:03 ... 'cause we're all really just doing the best we can. And that looks like a lot of different ways for a lot of different people, and it doesn't mean that in my compassion and forgiveness that I have to engage with everybody all the time, right?

Jay Shetty 1:02:15 Of course.

Kerry Washington 1:02:15 Like, having healthy boundaries is also important. But I, I wanna ... I always wanna leave myself open to grace 'cause I need it for me, too.

Jay Shetty 1:02:25 Mm. Mm, I love that idea of how when we're choking our life or someone else of compassion, you're actually blocking it from yourself.

Kerry Washington 1:02:34 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:02:34 That's ... But ... And that's what I meant. I ... It was not a naive compassion-

Kerry Washington 1:02:38 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:02:38 ... that I was reading of.

Kerry Washington 1:02:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:02:39 It wasn't a ... It didn't come across as a people-pleasing or, "Oh, I'm just protecting," and you know? It, it-

Kerry Washington 1:02:47 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:02:48 ... it didn't, it didn't feel like that. It just really felt like a realized version of that, and that's even harder.

Kerry Washington 1:02:53 I think some of that, too, honestly, comes from the acting because you're taught early on that you ... To play a character, you can't judge your character.

Jay Shetty 1:03:02 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:03:03 Like, when you're playing a bad guy, you can't think of it as a bad guy. It's what my ... Some of my favorite stories and my favorite narratives are these, like, origin stories for the villains, you know, like Cruella and the Joker. Like, these, these stories-

Jay Shetty 1:03:16 Mine, too

Kerry Washington 1:03:17 ... I love that-

Jay Shetty 1:03:17 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:03:17 ... because I feel like it's really true that hurt people hurt people, and-

Jay Shetty 1:03:22 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:03:22 ... villains come from somewhere. And so, um, as an actor, you learn that when you're playing a character who does something awful, you better figure out why.

Jay Shetty 1:03:32 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:03:33 You better figure out what it is that caused this person to make those choices because it's not gonna be real if you don't do that. You're just gonna be, like, some arch stereotype of a bad guy. If you wanna be a human being who's doing something awful, figure out the why. What, what's at stake? What is that person afraid of? What is that person needing? What is that person longing for? How was that person abused?

Jay Shetty 1:03:55 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:03:55 Um, and so I've, I've had to learn compassion even just for my characters, or maybe I'm drawn to playing complicated characters because I really love to cultivate compassion. I don't know, but it's definitely a part of kind of the culture of how I approach my life and my work.

Jay Shetty 1:04:13 It sounds like you're such a, you're such a seeker-

Kerry Washington 1:04:15 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:04:15 ... of the truth in, in spiritually, in your life, in your work. What is it that you're seeking now at this point in your life? Like, what is it that you're trying to learn or be curious about?

Kerry Washington 1:04:27 I think this next little chapter, which is, like, beginning right now, I'm learning to be in my truth publicly-

Jay Shetty 1:04:35 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:04:35 ... and to see what that feels like and what impact it has on me and my family because it's so new for me. I've been so private as a, you know, a person in the public eye. I've really not talked a lot about myself. So I'm really trying to be curious about what this experience feels like and, and how it changes me.

Jay Shetty 1:05:01 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:05:02 I'm curious about who my donor is. Um, so that's ... It feels like another part of the quest. But I'm also aware that that lack of information also feels like information.

Jay Shetty 1:05:18 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:05:18 Like, the fact that the universe hasn't given me this answer of, like, this is who he is, this is ... It feels like an invitation to move into deeper relationship with the family I come from, my family of origin, right? Like, that I have this new kind of truth with my parents, a different kind of truth with my kids, like telling my kids about, you know, my parents and how I came to be, all of that. Um, but also into a deeper relationship with, like, like a spirit father, you know? Like Father Time, like the archetype of father, like a heavenly father. Like, to lean into my connection to a higher power as bringing me those fatherly things, that sense of belonging and safety and, um, being cared for.

Jay Shetty 1:06:07 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:06:08 That I'm, I'm interested in this opportunity to cultivate that in my spirit world because I don't have it in the material world.

Jay Shetty 1:06:16 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:06:17 I have it, but I don't have it fully. I have these ... You know, I have my dad, who's incredible and wonderful, and I have this mystery donor. So I, I have father energy, but there's a deeper security that I can seek, I think, in my spiritual practice.

Jay Shetty 1:06:33 Mm. Wow, so beautiful. What, what was your intention in

Jay Shetty 1:06:37 your career to be ... Was it intentional to be private? And what are you hoping that the public aspect that you said you were seeking to figure out how it's- What, what was the intention behind going in that direction?

Kerry Washington 1:06:53 It's funny because it feels accidental. I mean, really, I've always, um ... I decided at a certain point in my career, I had been in a very public relationship, it was very public engagement, and when that ended, I was like, "Ah, I don't think I wanna give this much information to the press ever again." And my husband and I were of the same feeling when we met. We were very private the whole time we were dating. When we got married, people were like, "What?" Like, we didn't even know they knew each other. Like, very ... And this was at the height of both of our careers. Um, he was, like, on the cover of Sports Illustrated and I was on this hit show, and we wound up somehow having this very secret private courting and marriage. It was so beautiful. Um, I remember when I called my parents to tell them I was pregnant, they were like, "So you'll tell people, like, when the kid's in college?" Like, they [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:07:41 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:07:41 Were like ... I was like, "Probably."

Jay Shetty 1:07:43 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:07:43 Um, so it just ... It f- it has felt like, um, a way to protect the people that matter most to me. But my parents have always been a part of my public identity because, you know, I don't ... I didn't need to protect my relationship with my parents, and they're not children. You know, I, I don't ... I keep my kids off social media because I feel like they should make decisions about how they ... And there are a lot of ways to do it. There's no right or wrong. But for us, I feel like my kids should be of an age where they know how they wanna enter that social media space. I, I don't wanna make those decisions for them. But my parents are old enough to make those decisions, so I kind of started posting more with my parents 'cause I was like, "I gotta post something," right? Like, so I would post my dog and post my parents, and I was doing these dad jokes with my dad, and my dad became a bit of a-

Jay Shetty 1:08:26 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:08:26 ... celebrity on my Instagram. And so then when I got this information, I was suddenly like, "Oh, I am complicit now in a lie 'cause I'm out here perpetuating this truth that's not my whole truth." And so suddenly I was like, I didn't want to keep a secret the way my parents had kept a secret. I ... 'Cause I don't feel like there's anything shameful about this.

Jay Shetty 1:08:52 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:08:52 I don't feel like there's any reason to not talk about it. So part of the telling of the story was like, this is a way for me to be corrective and just not feel like I'm perpetuating a lie that I didn't even know I was lying when I was doing it, but now I wanna just be transparent. So we'll see. I, I don't know. It's, it's very new for me to be this open. Um, but I guess I also just ... There's a saying that we're as sick as our secrets. Um, and I want to offer healing to my parents and to our relationship by, by not having it be in the dark, by speaking the truth of our journey, and of my journey in particular. One of the things that's been really wonderful about as I've shared the book with people is that people immediately tell me their family secrets. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:09:41 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:09:41 Like, immediately.

Jay Shetty 1:09:43 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:09:43 It's so funny. And so I've realized, like, all families have them-

Jay Shetty 1:09:47 Mm-hmm

Kerry Washington 1:09:48 ... and people feel less alone when they read the book-

Jay Shetty 1:09:52 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:09:52 ... because this person who has been so private, and I really have kind of maintained a certain level of Hollywood, like, this is who I am and I'll let you in only this much, and to, to let people in more, to allow that level of vulnerability helps me feel less alone-

Jay Shetty 1:10:12 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:10:12 ... but I think also has ... is helping readers feel less alone.

Jay Shetty 1:10:16 Yeah. I believe that for sure, and I, I love that y- that's what's happening as a response to the book-

Kerry Washington 1:10:22 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:10:22 ... because how beautiful would it be if every friend who picks up this book and shares it with their friend-

Kerry Washington 1:10:27 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:10:28 ... is now able to open up about something-

Kerry Washington 1:10:30 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:10:30 ... that they've been holding onto.

Kerry Washington 1:10:31 To let go of shame-

Jay Shetty 1:10:32 To let go-

Kerry Washington 1:10:32 ... and to let go of secrets and ... That's what I want for people, to ... And, and also I think it's important to see, to see where we are as a family, right? To know that we're closer than ever, that this revelation actually wasn't the fracturing of my family, that it actually was the birth of our true intimacy and closeness with each other.

Jay Shetty 1:10:55 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:10:56 And for me, like a real beginning, a, a, a sense of like, I don't have to hide. I can now really do and be anything.

Jay Shetty 1:11:05 Mm. It's so empowering to hear that.

Kerry Washington 1:11:07 Yeah. It's very liberating.

Jay Shetty 1:11:08 Very ... Liberating is the right word, actually.

Kerry Washington 1:11:10 Super liberating.

Jay Shetty 1:11:10 Actually liberating is the right word.

Kerry Washington 1:11:11 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:11:12 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:11:12 I think that's part of it, too, is like-

Jay Shetty 1:11:14 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:11:14 ... if people find out that this is the real deal of how I came to be and the story of my family, like, I wanted to own the narrative. I didn't want anybody else to be able to tell my story. I wanted to be able to tell my own story, to claim it and to have it, and to know that it was mine, that it is mine. I'm still living it. This is definitely, like, act one. [laughs] There's, there's more to do-

Jay Shetty 1:11:36 Yeah, yeah

Kerry Washington 1:11:36 ... and be, but it's mine.

Jay Shetty 1:11:39 Yeah. There's this beautiful line that you ... You say you were talking to your therapist about it, and then you explain it, and it says, "When you teach a person to believe that their internal truth is a lie, you take from them the very thing that is most important to each of us, our ability to know and trust ourselves."

Kerry Washington 1:11:57 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:11:58 And I can only imagine how much you trust yourself-

Kerry Washington 1:12:01 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:12:01 ... now.

Kerry Washington 1:12:02 So much more. It's true. That's ... I guess that's why I keep saying, like, I'm so curious about who I'll be on the other side-

Jay Shetty 1:12:10 Mm-hmm

Kerry Washington 1:12:10 ... of this chapter, like, once this is out there, because I do feel like I trust myself more now. I understand myself more. I trust myself. I feel stronger. I feel liberated. I feel like I have more capacity for compassion, more capacity to love myself, more understanding of myself, more capacity to understand and love my parents, and therefore more capacity to understand and love friends and other family members and my kids. If we are as sick as our secrets, then I am getting healthier and healthier every day.

Jay Shetty 1:12:42 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:12:43 You know? So I'm, I'm grateful for that 'cause I, I want to offer that to my kids and to myself and to my parents. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:12:51 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:12:51 We deserve that. You know, that's what this community is about. It's about health and happiness, and that's like- To be able to know that truth can lead to that because sometimes the truth seems so scary. You know, it's not that my parents were being mean. They were afraid. But that you can walk through that fear toward a deeper healing in truth is, is really what I want people to know.

Jay Shetty 1:13:15 Mm. Can I ask a practical question based on-

Kerry Washington 1:13:18 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:13:18 ... what you just said?

Jay Shetty 1:13:19 How did you talk about this to your kids?

Kerry Washington 1:13:21 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:13:22 And because I can imagine that that's scary 'cause it's a lot for them-

Kerry Washington 1:13:25 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:13:25 ... 'cause they're still young.

Kerry Washington 1:13:26 But you know what? It's a lot sc- it's a lot less scary for them because my kids have grown up in a world where half of their friends are born from surrogate moms or donor eggs or donor sperm or, like, they have friends with two dads, friends with two moms. Like, they're not up against some of the, like, constricting conservative ideas of who families are and how they come to be that my parents were battling 40 years ago, 40-plus years ago. So it's a different conversation with my kids. It's kind of much more normal. I'm like a, I'm just, like, ahead of the curve.

Jay Shetty 1:13:58 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:13:59 Um, but it's also very different. Like, the conversation we had with our 17-year-old was very different than the conversation with my six-year-old, right? [laughs] Like, super different. Um, and that's part of it, is I... A- and in general when it comes to this kind of, like, advanced information, we try to be led by their questions. You ki- Like, we offer them a little bi- bit of information and then ask them what questions they have 'cause I don't wanna overwhelm them with information, but I always want them to know that they can ask me anything. Anything, anything, anything. There's no bad answers, no wrong answers, nothing you can't ask. Um, and to, and that the door's always open. So, you know, like, my 17-year-old had more questions. My six-year-old had zero questions.

Jay Shetty 1:14:43 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:14:43 Um, my nine-year-old had a couple of questions and then was onto the next thing.

Jay Shetty 1:14:47 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:14:47 But they, for them, it's not a huge deal, and also it's not a huge deal because fundamentally my dad is my dad.

Jay Shetty 1:14:55 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:14:56 Like, that's the big thing, is that nothing has changed there. There's more information, and I'm gonna-

Jay Shetty 1:15:02 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:15:02 ... learn more about who I am, and therefore they're gonna learn more about who they are, but the bottom line is my dad is my dad, and that's not changing, so they have that security.

Jay Shetty 1:15:12 I love that. That's beautiful. Kerry, we end every On Purpose episode with a Final Five.

Kerry Washington 1:15:17 Yes, I know.

Jay Shetty 1:15:17 But I wanna ask you before we do that, is there anything I haven't asked you about that's on your heart, that's on your mind, that you really wanna share, that you wanna dive into, that you wanna talk about that we haven't covered today for whatever reason? And so I just wanna give you the floor and ask you if there's anything that you really wanted

Jay Shetty 1:15:35 to share. There doesn't have to be.

Kerry Washington 1:15:36 Was it surprising to you how much time I spent in India?

Jay Shetty 1:15:40 Yes. [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:15:41 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:15:41 And we should, and we should talk about that.

Kerry Washington 1:15:42 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:15:42 If you wanna talk about it.

Kerry Washington 1:15:43 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:15:43 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:15:44 Sure.

Jay Shetty 1:15:45 I, I had no idea.

Kerry Washington 1:15:46 Uh-huh. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:15:47 And I was like, "Yeah, you've definitely been private"

Kerry Washington 1:15:49 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:15:50 ... because I feel like India's such a big part of my work and my heart and my spiritual home-

Kerry Washington 1:15:55 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:15:55 ... that I love when people have spent time in India.

Kerry Washington 1:15:59 It's such a special place.

Jay Shetty 1:16:01 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:16:01 It lives so deeply in me. I, I really want to go back, and I wanna bring my family, and even my husband is like, "I have to go because it's so much a part of you." Um, I do feel like, you know, when I talk about the street I grew up on, it's Pugsley Avenue in the Bronx, but I also feel like Kerala raised me. You know, it was the first place I lived when I left the cocoon of college, right? When I was really into like, college is over. You're, like, for real an adult now. You're on your own, and I walked into that in India, which is, like, the most magical of places. Um, so I'm, I'm really, really grateful for that place, and I hope that I can spend more time there.

Jay Shetty 1:16:45 How many times have you been back?

Kerry Washington 1:16:46 Only, only that one time.

Jay Shetty 1:16:47 Oh, that was the only time.

Kerry Washington 1:16:48 I've never been.

Jay Shetty 1:16:48 I forgot that. Right, right.

Kerry Washington 1:16:49 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:16:50 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:16:50 Yeah. I would love to go back. Do you go back often?

Jay Shetty 1:16:52 I go back every year.

Kerry Washington 1:16:53 You do?

Jay Shetty 1:16:54 Every single year.

Kerry Washington 1:16:54 And where are you based?

Jay Shetty 1:16:56 So I'll go to the ashram that I spent time in-

Kerry Washington 1:16:59 You do

Jay Shetty 1:16:59 ... which is in Mumbai and then two hours outside of Mumbai.

Kerry Washington 1:17:02 How long do you stay there?

Jay Shetty 1:17:03 I'll be there for ... It, it varies. Like, this time I'm going for, I'm going to another pilgrimage this year in West India.

Kerry Washington 1:17:11 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:17:11 And that's for around a week to 10 days.

Kerry Washington 1:17:14 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:17:14 And then in January I'm going back to the ashram that I was in for, like-

Kerry Washington 1:17:18 Wow

Jay Shetty 1:17:18 ... two weeks.

Kerry Washington 1:17:19 Wow.

Jay Shetty 1:17:20 And so it, it varies. Sometimes I go back for three weeks.

Kerry Washington 1:17:22 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:17:22 Sometimes it's been a month.

Kerry Washington 1:17:23 And do you just, like, set aside that time a year ahead on your calendar?

Jay Shetty 1:17:28 I try to. Yeah, I try to make it a time that's always in and that it's a time to completely disconnect, so I won't be on my phone. We prep content in advance-

Kerry Washington 1:17:37 Mm. Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:17:37 ... so that I don't have to think about the podcast or social media.

Kerry Washington 1:17:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:17:40 I just want to be fully disconnected.

Kerry Washington 1:17:42 Does your wife go, or it's just you?

Jay Shetty 1:17:44 Yeah, she comes with me.

Kerry Washington 1:17:44 Oh, that's special.

Jay Shetty 1:17:45 Yeah, she comes with me. Yeah, and it's really fun.

Kerry Washington 1:17:46 Wow.

Jay Shetty 1:17:46 We love doing it together.

Kerry Washington 1:17:47 Oh, that's so beautiful.

Jay Shetty 1:17:48 It's a really beautiful way of just both of us getting a reset, and if anything, she makes us do it even more than I do now.

Kerry Washington 1:17:55 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:17:55 Like, she's like ... You know, she loves it, and-

Kerry Washington 1:17:57 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:17:57 ... it's such a ... We sometimes take our family. We take our parents.

Kerry Washington 1:18:00 Really?

Jay Shetty 1:18:01 Yeah, it's really beautiful for them as well. We just feel like doing more spiritual things together as a family is just so deeply bonding in a different way.

Kerry Washington 1:18:09 Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:18:10 And it's so important for our, like, connection.

Kerry Washington 1:18:14 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:18:14 And so we find that taking her parents and mine is, is a big part of it, so yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:18:18 Is it hard for you to transition in and out of? Like, when you get there, do you miss the secular life? And when you're, when you're leaving, are you like, "Okay, I'm done," or are you like, "Oh, I wish I could stay longer"?

Jay Shetty 1:18:29 I think one of the greatest, greatest, greatest skills that monk training gave to me was the ability to just be where I am-

Kerry Washington 1:18:37 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:18:37 ... and be okay with it-

Kerry Washington 1:18:38 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:18:38 ... and then move when it's done.

Kerry Washington 1:18:41 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:18:41 And so I find that as long as I know why I am where I am and as long as I know it's intentional-

Kerry Washington 1:18:48 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:18:48 ... then I feel very grateful that I can wake up and just feel I'm where I'm meant to be.

Kerry Washington 1:18:56 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:18:57 And I think that was all because of the way we were trained, where you weren't Nowhere was more home than anywhere else

Kerry Washington 1:19:03 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:19:04 And that's like a really interesting training because most of the time we're trained to be like, know where your home is, know where your roots are.

Kerry Washington 1:19:10 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:19:10 But this was almost like, well, if your roots were here-

Kerry Washington 1:19:13 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:19:14 ... then you were always at home. That if you were aligned here, then you were always centered and grounded. You didn't, you didn't need an external thing. Now, that doesn't mean today that I don't like having... I love my home here-

Kerry Washington 1:19:25 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:19:25 ... and I love feeling grounded here. And yes, do I feel more happy when I'm here than in a hotel room? Sure.

Kerry Washington 1:19:31 Ah.

Jay Shetty 1:19:32 But I don't feel I wake up without purpose in a hotel room-

Kerry Washington 1:19:35 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:19:35 ... if I'm there for a reason or-

Kerry Washington 1:19:36 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:19:37 ... when I was touring this year or-

Kerry Washington 1:19:38 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:19:38 ... whatever it may be. And so I think I look at purpose as my home, or at least, at least as a mindset and an approach.

Kerry Washington 1:19:45 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:19:46 So I feel like I can kind of switch back on and off fairly easily.

Kerry Washington 1:19:49 I've never

Kerry Washington 1:19:50 done a book tour before. Do you have any advice for me? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:19:52 [laughs] Well, I'm excited watching your book tour.

Kerry Washington 1:19:54 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:19:54 I was trying to join you. My, my schedule was nuts.

Kerry Washington 1:19:56 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:19:57 And I was... It looks amazing. You've got so many amazing guests joining you.

Kerry Washington 1:19:59 I do, I do.

Jay Shetty 1:20:00 Like, I can't wait to hear the conversations that come out of it-

Kerry Washington 1:20:02 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:20:02 ... and the things that other people share.

Kerry Washington 1:20:04 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:20:04 I'm hope- You should ask every person to share a sec- a family secret. [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:20:08 Family secret. [laughs] Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:20:09 'Cause that'd be amazing. You can't imagine the healing. But my, my only advice, which, I mean, you've done, you've been on set for months, and you've tr- I mean, you don't need my advice, but for whatever it's worth, I... There were two things, the fir- And one's external, one's internal.

Kerry Washington 1:20:24 Oh, good.

Jay Shetty 1:20:25 So the external is my health was my number one priority-

Kerry Washington 1:20:28 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:20:28 ... because it's so easy to fall sick when you're traveling that much.

Kerry Washington 1:20:31 And practically, what did that mean?

Jay Shetty 1:20:32 And practically, that meant having a routine even though it wasn't my routine here.

Kerry Washington 1:20:37 Mm, having a tour routine.

Jay Shetty 1:20:38 So I slept... Yes.

Kerry Washington 1:20:39 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:20:39 So I slept at 2:00 AM because I'd get off stage at, like, 10:30.

Kerry Washington 1:20:43 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:20:44 I'd do a meet and greet.

Kerry Washington 1:20:45 You'd be amped.

Jay Shetty 1:20:45 I'd be amped. I'd eat at midnight.

Kerry Washington 1:20:48 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:20:48 And then I'd sleep at 2:00 AM. I'd wake up at 9:00 AM, so I'd get seven hours of sleep. I'd then go on a walk around the city that I was in with my team-

Kerry Washington 1:20:55 Wherever you were

Jay Shetty 1:20:56 ... or, yeah, with my tour manager-

Kerry Washington 1:20:57 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:20:57 ... or with my team, whoever's with me. We'd just go on a long walk.

Kerry Washington 1:21:00 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:21:00 Get like 10 to 20,000 steps sometimes.

Kerry Washington 1:21:02 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:21:02 Like, just really get active.

Kerry Washington 1:21:04 Love that, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:21:04 And, and be in the place, 'cause we weren't really in a place for longer than a night.

Kerry Washington 1:21:08 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:21:09 So I was like, not that I wanted to see the city, but I was like, "I wanna be outdoors."

Kerry Washington 1:21:13 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:21:13 "I don't wanna be in a gym or-"

Kerry Washington 1:21:15 Uh-huh.

Jay Shetty 1:21:15 You know, I don't wanna get lost in that.

Kerry Washington 1:21:16 That's great.

Jay Shetty 1:21:16 So that was really great. And then I would eat breakfast at 9:00 and then lunch at 12, and then I wouldn't eat again, and I would just... I was allowing myself to just be on stage at night.

Kerry Washington 1:21:26 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:21:27 And in the sense of like, I was like, I don't need to achieve more, because I was starting off, like, being on stage, we'd start a meditation at 3:00 AM, 3:00 PM, and then I wouldn't get off stage until 10:30 and finish till midnight.

Kerry Washington 1:21:39 Oof.

Jay Shetty 1:21:39 So it was just like my nine-hour workday started at 3:00 PM.

Kerry Washington 1:21:43 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:21:43 And so allowing myself in the morning, I don't need to rush to meetings. I don't need to be on a million phone calls.

Kerry Washington 1:21:49 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:21:49 I just need to focus on being present, because then I can give people the best experience and, and honor that experience.

Kerry Washington 1:21:56 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:21:56 And so it was a very, like, disciplined approach.

Kerry Washington 1:21:58 That's good.

Jay Shetty 1:21:59 And, and really to take it all in. Like, I'm sure there's gonna be tears. I'm sure there's gonna be laughs. I'm sure people are gonna wanna hug you after this and share their story. And it's like I look back and I think of, like, when... And it's what you were saying, that as your life becomes more public, there's, as you know better than anyone, there's, there's scrutiny, there's, there's criticism, there's whatever. I found that the love I got from my community when I was traveling was enough to keep me afloat-

Kerry Washington 1:22:25 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:22:25 ... for all the times and all the other-

Kerry Washington 1:22:26 Fills the well.

Jay Shetty 1:22:27 It fills the well-

Kerry Washington 1:22:28 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:22:28 ... of all the other stuff that comes and goes. You get to see people's eyes, and you get to see someone look into your eyes and say, "This book-

Kerry Washington 1:22:34 "Changed my life."

Jay Shetty 1:22:34 ... this book's gonna change my life."

Kerry Washington 1:22:35 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:22:35 Whatever. And people are gonna say that to you. Like, people are gonna have their stories of what you've discovered, and just getting to hear that from people and see people say it, people have been fans of yours for so long, and you've probably never heard them say it in this intimate way.

Kerry Washington 1:22:48 Mm, mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:22:48 People have loved your characters-

Kerry Washington 1:22:50 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:22:50 ... not you-

Kerry Washington 1:22:51 Yeah, that's so true

Jay Shetty 1:22:52 ... in this way.

Kerry Washington 1:22:52 That's so true.

Jay Shetty 1:22:53 And so just taking it all in and allowing yourself to be present with it. So the external thing is the discipline-

Kerry Washington 1:22:59 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:22:59 ... and the health. And the internal thing is allowing yourself... I think sometimes we're so aware of, like, ego and worrying about whatever it may be and being modest and, and I was just like, "You know what? I'm just gonna soak up all the love."

Kerry Washington 1:23:14 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:23:14 Just take in all the love. Like, whenever I allow myself to just really receive the love, and I need it, too. I need to be nurtured by love.

Kerry Washington 1:23:22 Wow.

Jay Shetty 1:23:23 Why am I deflecting it or whatever? Just, just take the love, like.

Kerry Washington 1:23:28 It's so funny when you say that because when I was reading your book, which is just like a full-on study of love in all of its forms, I felt like in so many ways it was like my memoir is, like, your book in the wild. Like, it's-

Jay Shetty 1:23:43 Wow

Kerry Washington 1:23:43 ... so many concepts that you talk about in terms of forgiveness or, um, partnership or vulnerability. Like, it's, it's, it's what I'm expressing of how I was grappling with that. Like, if only I had had your book [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:23:56 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:23:56 When I was, like, 12 to help me walk through life. But it's really fun to, to see how usable your, your book is so, like, it's, it's so spot on in giving people what we need in life.

Jay Shetty 1:24:11 That's so reassuring. Thank you.

Kerry Washington 1:24:12 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:24:12 I mean, that I c- I could only dream of having it connect with a real life story as much as that because... Yeah, thank you. That, that means the world to me.

Kerry Washington 1:24:21 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:24:21 Thank you. I really received that. That's so special.

Kerry Washington 1:24:23 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:24:24 I, you know, just, I mean, I think that's, that's kind of like the, the perfect match in the world where we need, where it's like the, we need the human story of what it really looks like because it's messy and it's uncomfortable, and then hopefully we can all extrapolate lessons from it.

Kerry Washington 1:24:42 Yeah, and get a toolbox. It's like- [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:24:44 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:24:44 ... like, if you get triggered reading this book, get Jay's book-

Jay Shetty 1:24:47 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:24:47 ... and then you'll have-

Jay Shetty 1:24:48 They, they're good together

Kerry Washington 1:24:49 ... a toolbox to help you grow and heal. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:24:51 No, and, and I would say it the other way around. I feel like people need to see the messiness of what it looks like, and, and I don't shy away from that. But I think when you read about it and you see, like, oh, this is what the uncomfortable conversation looked like.

Kerry Washington 1:25:04 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:25:05 This is what the revelation looks like.

Kerry Washington 1:25:06 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:25:07 This is what the work looks like. Like, I think we need both sides because sometimes we have a romantic view of what growth looks like-

Kerry Washington 1:25:13 Mm, mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:25:15 ... revelation conversation with your family looks like, and we know that that's not true.

Kerry Washington 1:25:21 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:25:21 And so-

Kerry Washington 1:25:21 Right

Jay Shetty 1:25:21 ... yeah. And I, and I would love to, I love how much time you spent in India, for sure. I was-

Kerry Washington 1:25:25 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:25:26 I was definitely surprised.

Kerry Washington 1:25:27 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:25:27 What would

Jay Shetty 1:25:28 you say, what would you say then in that regard was, like, obviously you talked about the gift of your yoga training-

Kerry Washington 1:25:33 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:25:33 ... you talked about the gift of, you've r- referred to it many, many times. What was, what was the, what surprised you about India?

Kerry Washington 1:25:42 I think the thing that was most surprising and impactful for me about India was how drenched in God everything is. You know, like, I grew up in communities where there's, like, a liquor store on every corner. But in India, there's a, an altar on every corner. There's just, you know, when you walk into someone's house, there's an altar, there's a puja room, there's a, there's, like... You can't escape God if you wanted. The very way you say hello is, like, an acknowledgement of the God in each other. So that was really powerful for me in a time when I was really seeking God in my healing. And, um, yeah, I just, I found it impossible to escape a sense of spirituality in India. And it's not an easy place, right?

Jay Shetty 1:26:36 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:26:36 Like, people are not... It's not like everywhere you turn, everybody's comfortable and things are easy. So it is this combination of, like, life is hard, life is vibrant and chaotic, and, like, the, everything's so pungent, right? Like the scents and the colors and the... It's, it's so filled with life, like real material life, and yet every single inch of that is also connected to God.

Jay Shetty 1:27:02 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:27:02 And that I feel like is something that I try to live in my life. Like, to live life fully, like out loud and big and in truth, and to go after whatever it is that the dharma is leading you toward, but to not have it just be for self or for material, this life, to have it be about God and with God and for God, and that, it feels like that's so much of what I learned there.

Jay Shetty 1:27:28 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:27:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:27:29 Mm. Well, I mean, I don't think, I don't think there's any greater gift that-

Kerry Washington 1:27:33 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:27:33 ... a place could give you. That's pretty spectacular.

Kerry Washington 1:27:36 So special.

Jay Shetty 1:27:36 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:27:36 So special.

Jay Shetty 1:27:37 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:27:38 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:27:38 And it's, uh... I, I, I'd love to show you my temple room afterwards. Yeah, yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:27:42 I would love that.

Jay Shetty 1:27:43 I'd love to show it. Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:27:43 I would love that.

Jay Shetty 1:27:44 Yeah, it'd be beautiful to show it to you.

Kerry Washington 1:27:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:27:46 Like-

Kerry Washington 1:27:46 That would be great.

Jay Shetty 1:27:46 But no, I hope, Kerry, this has been a serving and an offering to your-

Kerry Washington 1:27:50 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:27:50 ... offering to the world. I, I really mean that because I really believe that this book for you is not a, it's not a celebrity memoir. Like-

Kerry Washington 1:28:00 No [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:28:01 ... you know, it's, it's, it's so mu-

Kerry Washington 1:28:02 No

Jay Shetty 1:28:02 ... it, it's so, it, it's so human and it's so, it's so truth-seeking, and so I really hope that this has served you and served your offering in the world, and-

Kerry Washington 1:28:13 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:28:13 ... you know.

Kerry Washington 1:28:14 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:28:14 I'm, I'm excited for everyone to, to read it, to connect with it, to share it with their family, share it with their friends, and, and hopefully uncover, discover, and recover from family secrets that may be holding you back in whatever way.

Kerry Washington 1:28:30 Mm. Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:28:30 And being able to have the grace to hold the supposed paradox-

Kerry Washington 1:28:36 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:28:36 ... with that, you know, compassion and empathy.

Kerry Washington 1:28:38 Amen.

Jay Shetty 1:28:39 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:28:40 Amen.

Jay Shetty 1:28:40 That's, that's my-

Kerry Washington 1:28:40 Thank you

Jay Shetty 1:28:41 ... that's my hope and intention for, for you and your book tour, and-

Kerry Washington 1:28:45 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:28:45 ... I wish you nothing but so much impact, and can already see everyone smiling and the faces and the, the lives being impacted and changed based on-

Kerry Washington 1:28:55 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:28:55 ... the work you've done, so.

Kerry Washington 1:28:56 Mm. Thank you so-

Jay Shetty 1:28:58 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:28:58 ... much.

Jay Shetty 1:28:58 Thank you for that.

Kerry Washington 1:28:58 It's such a privilege to be here.

Jay Shetty 1:29:00 Oh, I'm so grateful. I still

Jay Shetty 1:29:02 have to ask you the final five. I-

Kerry Washington 1:29:03 Oh, yes. Okay

Jay Shetty 1:29:03 ... I know you tried to dodge them, Kerry.

Kerry Washington 1:29:05 Okay.

Jay Shetty 1:29:05 I saw that.

Kerry Washington 1:29:05 You know, I should have prepared too.

Jay Shetty 1:29:07 You distracted me.

Kerry Washington 1:29:07 I'm like-

Jay Shetty 1:29:08 You know that-

Kerry Washington 1:29:08 ... such a fan, I should have prepared

Jay Shetty 1:29:10 ... you distract me. But I ho- yeah, I hope we got, I-

Kerry Washington 1:29:12 Okay

Jay Shetty 1:29:12 ... if there was anything else that you wanted to know about-

Kerry Washington 1:29:14 No, this was amazing.

Jay Shetty 1:29:15 All right. I wanted to make sure-

Kerry Washington 1:29:16 My good Lord

Jay Shetty 1:29:16 ... you be honest with me anytime.

Kerry Washington 1:29:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:29:17 Okay. So all right, question one, Kerry.

Kerry Washington 1:29:19 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:29:19 What is the best advice you've ever received or had?

Kerry Washington 1:29:24 The best advice I've ever received or heard is to pray.

Jay Shetty 1:29:30 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:29:31 When I learned to pray and meditate, to me they're sort of two sides of the same coin. You know, like, it's the talking to God and listening to God.

Jay Shetty 1:29:40 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:29:41 You know, whenever in my life I'm reminded to pray, it's never a bad thing. It's always a path to goodness because it's always, um, an act of surrender-

Jay Shetty 1:29:55 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:29:55 ... and an invitation to help. And the, the act of prayer for me, and of meditation, is really for me about picking up a tool of humility.

Jay Shetty 1:30:06 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:30:07 Because when I'm not making room for spiritual practice, it's like I think I'm in charge.

Jay Shetty 1:30:13 Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:30:13 And so the, the prayer helps me remember, and the meditation helps me remember, to be part of something greater, to not be trying to control and run everything, but to connect myself to something bigger.

Jay Shetty 1:30:26 What a great answer. We've never had that before on the show. What did, how did you learn how to pray? And for anyone who struggles with prayer because they think they have to have the perfect words or they don't know where to start-

Kerry Washington 1:30:36 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:30:37 ... like, what would you suggest for someone?

Kerry Washington 1:30:39 It was part of, um, my first time I ever got on my knees really to ask [laughs] something greater than me for help was when I was really struggling with my eating disorder stuff, which I talk about.

Jay Shetty 1:30:49 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:30:50 Um, and that was, that was the first time in my life that I was like, "I can't fix this."

Jay Shetty 1:30:55 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:30:55 Like, I don't know. I do not have the tools, and I don't know where to go, and I don't know what to do, and I'm gonna need somebody or something to step in and help me out. Um, that was my first experience with prayer. And then there's a really beautiful book, I think it's one of the most important books that I've read in my life, called The Artist Way by Julia Cameron.

Jay Shetty 1:31:14 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kerry Washington 1:31:14 And that book taught me a lot about bringing spiritual practice into my creativity and into my life as creative practice, but prayer through journaling, and I think there's no wrong way to pray. And honestly, I My prayer looks like all different kinds of ways. Like, it ... I think like any relationship, my relationship with spirit is always evolving and changing according to where I am. And, you know, sometimes it's like sitting on the pillow with the candle and the incense is, like, that's it. It's just like sometimes date night is, like, that perfect, elegant, five-star, you're dressed up, he's in a suit. It's a whole ... Right? Like, sometimes the ritual is that, and sometimes it's like I'm in my car, I'm at the red light, I'm like, "All right, God."

Jay Shetty 1:31:55 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:31:55 "Like, I'm gonna need you to step in and, you know, take this day on." You know, it ... Sometimes it's just singing gospel music. Sometimes it's doing some sun salutations. Sometimes it's, like, just saying, "God, God, only God" 107 times in a row.

Jay Shetty 1:32:08 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:32:08 Like, whatever it is, it can be, it can be so many different things.

Jay Shetty 1:32:11 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:32:12 Sometimes it's just swimming. But that, just making room for seeking other- something greater than me.

Jay Shetty 1:32:18 It's beautiful. What a wonderful ... Do you pray with the kids and-

Kerry Washington 1:32:21 We do.

Jay Shetty 1:32:21 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:32:21 At night we do, um, at night we do prayer requests and gratitude together-

Jay Shetty 1:32:26 Wow

Kerry Washington 1:32:26 ... as a family. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:32:27 I love that.

Kerry Washington 1:32:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:32:29 That's so special.

Kerry Washington 1:32:29 Yeah, [laughs] it is really special. It's really fun to watch them.

Jay Shetty 1:32:32 What do the kids come up ... Yeah, what do they-

Kerry Washington 1:32:33 They're ... It's great. You know, you never know. I mean, sometimes it's like their, sometimes their gratitude is really profound. Um, "I'm grateful that a grandparent is feeling better," or, um, "I'm grateful for this family trip and time with cousins." And sometimes it's like, "I'm really grateful for pickles."

Jay Shetty 1:32:50 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:32:50 And you're like, "What? Okay."

Jay Shetty 1:32:52 [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:32:52 You know, like, that's cool.

Jay Shetty 1:32:54 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:32:54 That too is God, right?

Jay Shetty 1:32:55 Yeah, yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:32:55 So, like, it's really, it's fun. And, and also the, the prayer request, it's, it's just our kind of family way of remembering to think outside yourself. And sometimes the prayer can be for yourself. I really hope my ankle feels better. I really ... But it's also a way to remember-

Jay Shetty 1:33:11 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:33:12 ... to include other people in your seeking.

Jay Shetty 1:33:15 Mm. Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:33:15 You know?

Jay Shetty 1:33:15 Beautiful. I love that. All right, well, that was just question one, so.

Kerry Washington 1:33:18 Yeah, I know. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:33:19 Question number two: What is the worst advice you've ever heard or received?

Kerry Washington 1:33:24 I'm think about this book that I talk about in my book that I, like, stole from the library when I was a kid that was called A New You.

Jay Shetty 1:33:31 That you missed the due date-

Kerry Washington 1:33:33 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:33:33 ... to give it back?

Kerry Washington 1:33:33 I missed the due date again and again and again and again. Um, you know, this idea that it, it appears in, like, magazines for young women, and it ... there's this messaging out there that to be loved you must be something other than who you are.

Jay Shetty 1:33:50 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:33:50 You know, that to be loved you have to be prettier, and you have to know what colors are right for you, and you have to know how to sit and how to walk and how to stand. And, um, I'm all about being, having good manners and being appropriate to a situation, but the idea that you have to be un- somebody other than who you are to be deserving of love is messaging that I was ... is damaging, I think.

Jay Shetty 1:34:13 Mm. Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:34:13 It was definitely damaging for me and I think for a lot of people.

Jay Shetty 1:34:17 Mm. Yeah, and that's ... And it gets so ingrained.

Kerry Washington 1:34:20 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:34:20 And it sounds so obvious, but it's, it's not, and it, and it's so subtle and so hidden.

Kerry Washington 1:34:26 So su- yeah. I mean, even from a young age when you hear kids saying, like, "I need those sneakers or else I'm not gonna be cool." Like, it's these messages, these ... I think consumerism has a lot to do with it, this idea that you must have that lipstick or that mascara or that facelift or those pair of jeans or whatever it is in order to be good enough. And, um, it's just not true.

Jay Shetty 1:34:50 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:34:50 It's just not true. You are lovable. And by the way, love sneakers, love lipstick-

Jay Shetty 1:34:56 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:34:56 ... love mascara. Like, you can have those things. You can play with those things. But, but the idea that to do th- you must do those things to be lovable, to be worthy, that's where, um, the wrong messaging-

Jay Shetty 1:35:09 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:35:10 ... gets implanted.

Jay Shetty 1:35:11 Yeah. To, to quote TikTok, I don't know if you've seen this new TikTok, which I love.

Kerry Washington 1:35:15 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:35:16 And it's ... And the, the, the, the sound is telling you how to dress to impress a man.

Kerry Washington 1:35:23 Oh, I love that one.

Jay Shetty 1:35:24 And then every single one-

Kerry Washington 1:35:25 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:35:25 ... you know which one I'm talking about?

Kerry Washington 1:35:25 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:35:25 Like, everyone's, like, doing the opposite.

Kerry Washington 1:35:27 Yes. It's so great.

Jay Shetty 1:35:28 And it's so co- yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:35:28 It's so great. Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:35:28 It's great. Yeah, yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:35:30 I haven't done that one.

Jay Shetty 1:35:31 I love-

Kerry Washington 1:35:31 I should do that one.

Jay Shetty 1:35:32 Yeah, I someone ... I saw someone do it with their daughter the other day.

Kerry Washington 1:35:34 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:35:34 A little girl. It was so cute.

Kerry Washington 1:35:36 So good.

Jay Shetty 1:35:36 I was like, yes, yeah, it's really cool.

Kerry Washington 1:35:37 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:35:38 So anyway.

Kerry Washington 1:35:38 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:35:39 Um, but that, that idea definitely. I love that. Great answer. All right, question number three is how would you define your current purpose?

Kerry Washington 1:35:48 My current purpose is to hold space for my scary truths and other people's scary truths, and to create community in that.

Jay Shetty 1:36:05 Mm. That's really powerful, and that's amazing.

Kerry Washington 1:36:09 I think that's it-

Jay Shetty 1:36:10 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:36:10 ... for now.

Jay Shetty 1:36:11 It sounds like a good one.

Kerry Washington 1:36:13 Maybe [laughs] for Q4. That's the purpose for Q4.

Jay Shetty 1:36:15 Yeah, for Q4.

Kerry Washington 1:36:15 I'll get back to you- [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:36:16 Your purpose every quarter

Kerry Washington 1:36:18 ... in January. Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:36:18 Yeah. I love that. I love that. It's so nice to put into words though, isn't it?

Kerry Washington 1:36:22 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:36:22 It's just like even to think about it, it's like-

Kerry Washington 1:36:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:36:25 Yeah. That's great. I love the answer. All right, question number four. We talked about what you're trying to learn now. Is there anything you're trying to unlearn?

Kerry Washington 1:36:32 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:36:32 Is there any beliefs that you're trying to unlearn or values or ideas?

Kerry Washington 1:36:36 I think I'm working to unlearn the belief that I am not enough, and I think I'm working to unlearn the belief that I am less important and less deserving.

Jay Shetty 1:36:57 Where does that still come from? Where's that, where's that hiding?

Kerry Washington 1:37:02 I think there is ... You know, when I think about the word sacrifice, and that sacrifice does come from sacred, right? And, and I think for some reason, as an only child, as a, as a young person, I understood that there was something sacred about sacrificing my own need or desire or truth even- To make space for someone else's journey. I've placed so much value on other people's sense of joy and goodness and safety that I've been willing to sacrifice my own sense-

Jay Shetty 1:37:45 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:37:45 ... of joy and goodness and safety.

Jay Shetty 1:37:47 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:37:49 And I don't regret it. I think it's not wrong to care about how other people feel and want to do what's right for other people. I'm just learning to let myself be one of those people-

Jay Shetty 1:38:05 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:38:05 ... right, to include myself. It's not like now I wanna do whatever I wanna do and to hell with whoever it hurts, but it's like I need to be as important as the other people I'm considering.

Jay Shetty 1:38:17 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:38:18 That I deserve that. That's new for me.

Jay Shetty 1:38:22 Yeah. One of the greatest lessons I think I've tried to learn is that, again, the world is trying to do either, or. So some of us think the answer is just take care of yourself. Who cares about what anyone else-

Kerry Washington 1:38:37 Right, right

Jay Shetty 1:38:37 ... thinks. And the opposite is, well, just sacrifice, just-

Kerry Washington 1:38:40 Yeah, yes

Jay Shetty 1:38:40 ... serve. Just surrender and give yourself over to everyone.

Kerry Washington 1:38:43 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:38:43 That's the greatest-

Kerry Washington 1:38:44 Right

Jay Shetty 1:38:45 ... gift. And something that I've learned that has really helped me is that actually taking care of myself-

Kerry Washington 1:38:51 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:38:52 ... in order to serve others-

Kerry Washington 1:38:54 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:38:54 ... is the complete picture.

Kerry Washington 1:38:56 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:38:56 That taking care of myself is not selfish if my intention and reasoning is so I can go out and do more, give more-

Kerry Washington 1:39:05 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:39:05 ... be more for others. But I can't do more, give more, and be more for others if I'm giving everyone the leftovers of-

Kerry Washington 1:39:11 Mm. That's right. I have to give from my overflow.

Jay Shetty 1:39:15 Correct.

Kerry Washington 1:39:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:39:16 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:39:16 And similarly, I've also learned that-

Jay Shetty 1:39:20 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:39:20 ... sometimes giving to others is a way that I can be giving to myself.

Jay Shetty 1:39:25 Absolutely.

Kerry Washington 1:39:25 Because I can ... Like, my giving to others can be how I build hope and community and belonging for myself.

Jay Shetty 1:39:33 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:39:33 There can be this dialogue between the two. So just to not forget myself [laughs] -

Jay Shetty 1:39:37 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:39:37 ... in the equation is so important.

Jay Shetty 1:39:39 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:39:40 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:39:40 And that when you give to someone, I also notice it this way, that when I give something to someone, often I feel like I'm the one doing the giving.

Kerry Washington 1:39:50 Mm. Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:39:51 But actually, the fact that there's someone there to receive it-

Kerry Washington 1:39:55 Mm, is such a gift

Jay Shetty 1:39:56 ... is a gift.

Kerry Washington 1:39:57 It's true.

Jay Shetty 1:39:57 Because if there was no one for you to give your gift to-

Kerry Washington 1:40:00 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:40:00 ... then it would feel incomplete.

Kerry Washington 1:40:03 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:40:03 And so the fact that even someone has a challenge, an opportunity, a moment that you get to give something to someone, we have to see that good for ourselves.

Kerry Washington 1:40:13 That's right. That's right.

Jay Shetty 1:40:14 Like, as opposed to this feeling of like, "Oh, I, I did this for all of you"-

Kerry Washington 1:40:16 That's right

Jay Shetty 1:40:17 ... you know? Like-

Kerry Washington 1:40:17 That's right. That's right.

Jay Shetty 1:40:18 Yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:40:18 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 1:40:19 Yeah. So yeah.

Kerry Washington 1:40:20 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:40:20 That's beautiful. I love that. All right, fifth and final question, which we ask to every guest. You should have practiced, Kerry. But if you could create one law-

Kerry Washington 1:40:27 Oh, that's right

Jay Shetty 1:40:28 ... that everyone in the world had to follow-

Kerry Washington 1:40:30 Oh my God

Jay Shetty 1:40:30 ... what would it be? Take your time.

Kerry Washington 1:40:34 One law that everyone in the world-

Jay Shetty 1:40:35 Your answers so far have been fantastic

Kerry Washington 1:40:37 ... has to follow.

Jay Shetty 1:40:38 A++ for everything. [laughs]

Kerry Washington 1:40:39 Oh, God. Oh, God. So much pressure. One law that everyone in the world had to follow. I think it would be required compassion and empathy training.

Jay Shetty 1:40:48 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:40:49 When I think about all of the, like, ills of society, all of our kind of social evils come from us not being able to care for each other.

Jay Shetty 1:41:00 Mm.

Kerry Washington 1:41:00 You know, when you ... Even when you think of, like, really mentally ill folks-

Jay Shetty 1:41:05 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:41:05 ... that, it, that there, there is ... I don't wanna say that 'cause some of it is biological, but there ... I feel like there could be so much pain-

Jay Shetty 1:41:15 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:41:15 ... that's avoided. We could stop so much transfer of generational pain-

Jay Shetty 1:41:20 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:41:20 ... and suffering. We could prevent so much abuse if we could just give people empathy and compassion training. It would impact how we legislate-

Jay Shetty 1:41:32 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:41:32 ... how we interact with one another, how we, um, how we care for each other in society. I think we need that so badly-

Jay Shetty 1:41:43 Mm

Kerry Washington 1:41:43 ... right now, in our families, in our schools, in our businesses, in our government bodies. We just need so much more empathy and compassion.

Jay Shetty 1:41:52 Mm. I love that. Yeah. That's beautiful.

Kerry Washington 1:41:55 And there would have to be a special chapter on having it for yourself, too.

Jay Shetty 1:41:59 Yes.

Kerry Washington 1:41:59 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:42:00 Yes. Yeah. For sure.

Kerry Washington 1:42:02 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:42:02 For sure.

Kerry Washington 1:42:03 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:42:04 Everyone, the book is called Thicker Than Water. I have it right here. Kerry Washington, A Memoir. Make sure you go and order your copy. We'll have the link in the comments and the caption-

Kerry Washington 1:42:15 Yay

Jay Shetty 1:42:15 ... so you can go and grab your copy right now. Kerry is also going on tour, so if you don't have-

Kerry Washington 1:42:19 Yay

Jay Shetty 1:42:19 ... your tickets yet, make sure you go and grab your tickets to see her live. She's got phenomenal guests joining her as well, so make sure you go and check that out. And of course, please, please, please tag Kerry and I with moments of this episode-

Kerry Washington 1:42:31 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:42:32 ... that resonated with you on Instagram-

Kerry Washington 1:42:33 And we'll repost-

Jay Shetty 1:42:34 ... on TikTok

Kerry Washington 1:42:34 ... and respond and-

Jay Shetty 1:42:35 Yeah

Kerry Washington 1:42:35 ... yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:42:35 Please let us know what really stood out to you, what you're gonna practice. Maybe you've been inspired to share something with your family member, maybe to ask questions to your family as well, to understand more about your origins and where you came from and who you are. So I hope you're leaving this feeling empowered, liberated, and strengthened in your pursuit for truths. And again, I wanna thank you, Kerry, for your generosity-

Kerry Washington 1:42:59 Mm

Jay Shetty 1:42:59 ... your openness to share, your vulnerability, and this new friendship that we're-

Kerry Washington 1:43:04 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:43:04 ... building.

Kerry Washington 1:43:04 I'm so excited.

Jay Shetty 1:43:06 Uh, I'm very grateful for, so-

Kerry Washington 1:43:07 Thank you

Jay Shetty 1:43:08 ... thank you, Kerry.

Kerry Washington 1:43:08 Thank you so much.

Jay Shetty 1:43:09 Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Kerry Washington 1:43:10 What a treat.

Jay Shetty 1:43:11 If you loved this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Julie Smith on unblocking negative emotions and how to embrace difficult feelings.

Speaker 1:43:21 You've just got to be motivated every day. And if you're not, then what are you doing? And, and actually, humans don't work that way. Motivation, you have to treat it like any other emotion. Some days it will be there, some days it won't