MICHELLE OBAMA Opens Up On Her 8 Years In The White House: "We Know Too Much."

Michelle Obama 0:00 There's such a thing as knowing too much. You've been married to the President of the United States, who knows everything about everything in the world. Sometimes you just-

Speaker 0:09 The phenomenally successful author. Please welcome the former First Lady of these United States, Michelle Obama.

Michelle Obama 0:15 I don't want people looking at me and Barack like #couplesgoals. No, no. There are some broken things that happen even in the best of marriages.

Jay Shetty 0:24 What is the thing that keeps you up at night now? Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me. The number one health and wellness podcast.

Michelle Obama 0:55 Jay Shetty.

Speaker 0:55 Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 0:56 The one, the only Jay Shetty. [laughs] Michelle, thank you so much for joining me On Purpose. This is such an honor. I'm so grateful to have you here.

Michelle Obama 1:06 I'm thrilled to be here.

Jay Shetty 1:08 Uh, oh-

Michelle Obama 1:08 I'm, I'm a fan. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:09 Oh, that's, that is, that, that means more to me than you know. Thank you so much. And I'll dive

Jay Shetty 1:14 straight in. What is the best part about being you?

Michelle Obama 1:17 I have never thought about that. That is a great question. I think my family, m- my friendships. I think one of the things that Barack and I, we always talk about, is that we're proud of the fact that we've kept our community. You know, people that we've known all our lives are still a part of that community that keeps us solid and keeps us whole and grounded. It's easy to lose your head on this journey that we've been on, and I think what keeps us focused is that we've had, we have some solid people in our lives, and we make it a point to cultivate those relationships-

Jay Shetty 1:58 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:58 ... and to learn to be intentional about them. And I think that that's probably one of the coolest things, is that, you know, I've got this big kitchen table-

Jay Shetty 2:07 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 2:08 ... of people who keep me focused and, and keep me honest.

Jay Shetty 2:13 Yeah. What's the longest friendship then, non-family? Like, what's the-

Michelle Obama 2:16 Oh-

Jay Shetty 2:16 ... in years would you say?

Michelle Obama 2:17 ... the, the longest friendship. I mean, gosh, childhood friendships I, I still have.

Jay Shetty 2:24 Wow.

Michelle Obama 2:24 Um, I've sort of picked up friends throughout every part of my life.

Jay Shetty 2:29 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 2:29 You know, I've got one or two. I've got the high school friends that I keep in touch with, the college friends, the law school friends. You know, so you sort of gather people throughout.

Jay Shetty 2:42 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 2:42 Um, and I've, I've had a lot of people who've sort of just hung in there-

Jay Shetty 2:47 Yeah. [laughs]

Michelle Obama 2:47 ... before we were the Obamas.

Jay Shetty 2:50 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 2:50 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 2:51 How, how does that work? I feel like so many people who are on their journey, a lot of us don't take steps forward because we're scared of what our friends will think. Some of us get carried away with success-

Michelle Obama 3:01 Yeah

Jay Shetty 3:01 ... and ego and pride goes to your head, and then you alienate people.

Michelle Obama 3:05 Mm.

Jay Shetty 3:05 Sometimes it's envy and jealousy from everyone else who didn't join you on the journey.

Michelle Obama 3:09 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:09 How do you navigate a multi-decade level friendship

Jay Shetty 3:15 when everyone is going through so much? What are the kind of key milestones-

Michelle Obama 3:19 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 3:19 ... of maintaining that kitchen table?

Michelle Obama 3:21 You know, I, I talk about this journey like climbing Mount Everest. You start... Not that I've ever done that, by the way.

Jay Shetty 3:28 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 3:29 But what I've heard about climbing Mount Everest-

Jay Shetty 3:31 Fair

Michelle Obama 3:31 ... is that you, you start out at base camp, and then you hit these summits along the way, and everybody starts out the journey ready, you know? They think, "I'm gonna make it to the top." And then you start the climb-

Jay Shetty 3:44 Yeah

Michelle Obama 3:44 ... and some people are ready for it and some people aren't, and it's surprising y- that you learn along the climb who's really ready.

Jay Shetty 3:53 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 3:53 And there are people who just emotionally, physically can't go the whole way.

Jay Shetty 3:59 Mm.

Michelle Obama 3:59 They've run out of oxygen, you know?

Jay Shetty 4:01 Mm.

Michelle Obama 4:01 They weren't fit for the climb, right?

Jay Shetty 4:04 Mm.

Michelle Obama 4:05 And one of the hardest things is, like, when you discover that. I mean, do you, do you stop? Do you go back because there was one member that wasn't ready? Or do you keep climbing and sort of leave them where they are? And we found that that's kind of been the, the pattern, right?

Jay Shetty 4:22 Wow.

Michelle Obama 4:23 There are people who have been, they, they were built for the climb like we were, and some weren't. And I, I find that I, I talk to young people about this too, because when you're a kid coming from nothing, um, and I won't say that I came from nothing, but Barack nor I came from wealth or connection or fame or fortune. Um, so we have a hodgepodge of people in our lives, and one of the toughest things is to find out that a dear friend wasn't ready for the climb. And in order to keep pressing forward, we tell young people that sometimes you gotta leave them there.

Jay Shetty 5:00 Mm.

Michelle Obama 5:01 Because you can't carry people when you're trying to get the, to the top. Um, it slows you down. Um, but there's, you know, survivor's remorse that comes with it, and I know there, the, you know, a lot of times when I talk to kids and I see them well up, I see in them that struggle.

Jay Shetty 5:18 Mm.

Michelle Obama 5:18 That they've reached a point where they've left people they love behind.

Jay Shetty 5:23 Mm.

Michelle Obama 5:23 And they struggle to figure out how to weather or how to maintain those connections, and it becomes hard, and it's draining.

Jay Shetty 5:31 Mm.

Michelle Obama 5:31 You know, kids for example who got the opportunity to go to college when half their family isn't eating.

Jay Shetty 5:37 Yes.

Michelle Obama 5:38 Right? And they've got a student loan, and they need to use that loan to pay for their books, but they're trying to send money back home to pay the electric bill.

Jay Shetty 5:46 Mm.

Michelle Obama 5:46 And I tell those kids, like, if you wanna make it, you've gotta make some hard choices about-

Jay Shetty 5:52 Mm

Michelle Obama 5:52 ... what to do with your life, or you will not make the climb yourself.

Jay Shetty 5:56 And then everyone loses.

Michelle Obama 5:57 And then everybody loses. And I think that's how we've had to look at it. We've been fortunate enough that we've had so many people who were ready for the climb. They had to adjust, they had to go back and do a little working out, but for the most part, they've made it. But f- for the people who couldn't, we had to leave them behind-

Jay Shetty 6:15 Mm

Michelle Obama 6:15 ... and keep climbing. And if once we made it to the top, if we could reach back and pull some others up, we definitely did that. It is one of the greatest challenges, uh, when you are pursuing a life that is drastically different from the one that you come from.

Jay Shetty 6:32 Is there such a thing as a graceful end?

Michelle Obama 6:34 Well, it depends on who's doing the ending, right?

Jay Shetty 6:36 [laughs] Yes.

Michelle Obama 6:37 [laughs] Sometimes, you know, sometimes I say there's such a thing as the slow ghost. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 6:43 Mm.

Michelle Obama 6:44 You know, where you just sort of let relationships take their natural course.

Jay Shetty 6:51 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 6:52 Friendships and relationships kind of tell you when they're ready.

Jay Shetty 6:55 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 6:56 You know?

Jay Shetty 6:56 That's so true.

Michelle Obama 6:57 And you have to kind of listen to it.

Jay Shetty 7:00 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 7:00 You, you, you learn as you get older.

Jay Shetty 7:02 Yeah. [laughs]

Michelle Obama 7:02 You know, sometimes you held on too long, you let some, you know, bad, uh, juju stay around too, too long.

Jay Shetty 7:10 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 7:11 And as you get older, you, you can recognize, right?

Michelle Obama 7:14 I've always approached life and friendships, and I try to tell my daughters this too, is stay open.

Jay Shetty 7:21 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 7:22 Stay open to the possibility of people. I never want my daughters, and I never wanted to feel so high that I was closed off and suspicious, you know, not wanting to let new people in, right?

Jay Shetty 7:34 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 7:34 And that becomes very difficult-

Jay Shetty 7:36 Absolutely

Michelle Obama 7:36 ... when you're the president and the first lady.

Jay Shetty 7:38 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 7:38 You know, you could, you know, close your life off so much, right? Because everyone might want something from you.

Jay Shetty 7:46 Totally.

Michelle Obama 7:46 But I always felt like, well, that's a loss, you know, because if you close everybody out, then you miss some gems.

Jay Shetty 7:53 Mm.

Michelle Obama 7:54 We've tried to be open and find ways to let new people in our lives and develop new relationships. And what I tell my kids is, "Trust your gut, because you'll know when people should be let out. But keep, keep your aperture wide open."

Jay Shetty 8:13 Mm.

Michelle Obama 8:13 "Let people in, but when they show you who they are, let them out quickly."

Jay Shetty 8:18 Mm.

Michelle Obama 8:18 And as older you get, you, you know. It's like, eh.

Jay Shetty 8:22 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 8:22 That wasn't, that, this one isn't working out, so let's just cut it quick, but stay open.

Jay Shetty 8:28 Mm. And you're naturally going to make mistakes, you're naturally going to get hurt-

Michelle Obama 8:31 Absolutely

Jay Shetty 8:32 ... you're naturally not going to read everyone perfectly.

Michelle Obama 8:35 So true.

Jay Shetty 8:35 That's-

Michelle Obama 8:35 So true

Jay Shetty 8:36 ... that's going to happen, but it's better to be aware, note down the lesson, but be open in the first place, because being closed is worse you f-

Michelle Obama 8:44 You miss, you miss out on-

Jay Shetty 8:45 Yeah

Michelle Obama 8:46 ... the goodness, the possibility, the opportunity, the, the new, right?

Jay Shetty 8:51 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 8:52 And I never want to miss out on the new. I, I'd rather ke- give people the benefit of, of the doubt, bring them in, and, and let them disappoint me.

Jay Shetty 9:02 Mm.

Michelle Obama 9:02 It's like I, I can deal with disappointment. I can be, I can, I can get over hurt.

Jay Shetty 9:07 Mm.

Michelle Obama 9:08 But I don't want to lose the possibility of someone special coming in.

Jay Shetty 9:12 Wow.

Michelle Obama 9:13 That's the greater trade-off, right?

Jay Shetty 9:15 That's so powerful.

Michelle Obama 9:16 And it's proven to be the right approach. You know, we, we've just met some wonderful people along this journey, and gosh, if I had closed myself off to that, I, oof. I think of the friendships, the influences that I wouldn't have had.

Jay Shetty 9:33 Mm.

Michelle Obama 9:33 So I want my girls to stay open.

Jay Shetty 9:35 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 9:35 You know? I want them to be open people.

Jay Shetty 9:38 Yes. I had a mentor in London probably around 10 years ago, and he devised this set of questions-

Michelle Obama 9:45 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 9:45 ... that gives you your personality type.

Michelle Obama 9:48 Yeah, yes.

Jay Shetty 9:48 And there's so many tests like this.

Michelle Obama 9:49 Yes.

Jay Shetty 9:50 But his was really interesting, and it's very aligned with your thinking. So, and he also had types where we'd get locked.

Michelle Obama 9:57 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 9:57 And he'd call this CSC. He said the more closed, the more specific, and the more controlling you get-

Michelle Obama 10:04 Mm

Jay Shetty 10:04 ... the less you're able to actually connect, grow, evolve, learn. And he would always say, as you're saying, the more open, random, and supportive you are-

Michelle Obama 10:14 Yeah

Jay Shetty 10:14 ... the more likely you are to be able to invite people into your life at different times. And I, I love hearing that, because-

Michelle Obama 10:19 Yeah, I like that

Jay Shetty 10:20 ... yeah, it was, yeah, that-

Michelle Obama 10:21 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 10:21 ... change from closed sele-

Michelle Obama 10:22 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 10:22 ... oh, closed, selective, and controlling to open, random, and supportive. He was saying, "You never know. You could have a random interaction with someone. It could be the most beautiful lesson of your life," and...

Michelle Obama 10:31 And I also felt that, you know, when you're the President of the United States and the First Lady, you have to be open.

Jay Shetty 10:38 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 10:38 You have to be open to all the possibilities. You can't live in your fortress and govern the people, right?

Jay Shetty 10:45 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 10:46 And I think we benefited from the fact that we had to figure out how to be regular people-

Jay Shetty 10:51 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 10:51 ... in the White House, because we had kids and school. And so we couldn't become just White House people. We had to get to know that community, and go to parent-teacher conference, and make friends with other parents, because we wanted our kids' lives to be normal. But that, in a way, kept me connected with people, and what they were really feeling, and what their challenges were, and it keeps me open and empathetic to people because I'm engaged and I'm not sitting in my castle-

Jay Shetty 11:23 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 11:23 ... looking out at everybody else.

Jay Shetty 11:25 Mm, absolutely.

Michelle Obama 11:26 Um, so I found it particularly necessary-

Jay Shetty 11:29 Absolutely

Michelle Obama 11:29 ... in our role.

Jay Shetty 11:30 Yeah, so that's the best thing. That's

Jay Shetty 11:32 beautiful. What has been the worst or the hardest part about being you?

Michelle Obama 11:36 Well, I think it's the flip side of that coin, of that when you're on the top of Mount Everest, it can be isolating and, uh, dystopic in a way. You know, I think one of the greatest things that we've learned to appreciate in this role, and I, I tell young people this, especially young people who think they want fame.

Jay Shetty 11:57 Mm.

Michelle Obama 11:57 You know, it's like, "Do you know what that is?" [laughs]

Jay Shetty 12:00 Mm.

Michelle Obama 12:01 You know, are you grasping for something y- you have no idea, or are your parents pushing you towards this thing? Is that when you become famous, well-known, you lose your anonymity. That's a tough thing to lose.

Jay Shetty 12:14 It's a price.

Michelle Obama 12:15 Right?

Jay Shetty 12:15 It's a cost, yeah.

Michelle Obama 12:15 It's a huge price, right? The natural everyday thing of, of sitting and being able to sit in the world and observe it.

Jay Shetty 12:25 Mm.

Michelle Obama 12:26 And not be observed, right? I mean-

Jay Shetty 12:29 Wow. That's a really interesting-

Michelle Obama 12:30 That-

Jay Shetty 12:30 -way of putting it.

Michelle Obama 12:31 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 12:31 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 12:31 Yeah. Just sort of sitting in a park and watching the world happen with nobody pulling you out of it, right? The simple walk through a park or standing in line at the grocery store and overhearing life. We don't have that, you know? We don't have spontaneity in the same way, and that's a hard thing to lose.

Jay Shetty 12:55 Mm.

Michelle Obama 12:56 Now, here's the thing. Fortunately, we lost it, we lost it in our 40s. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 13:01 [laughs] Yeah.

Michelle Obama 13:03 I just think of kids who are reaching for it, not knowing that you, you're about to lose a really valuable thing. You want to. You're striving to lose it, and you're only 18.

Jay Shetty 13:15 Mm.

Michelle Obama 13:15 20. You don't wanna lose your ana- anonymity. You don't want to trade that off for anything in the world because once you lose it, you lose a lot more. We've adjusted, right? Because we're adults. So yes, I can figure out how to make one move, go on a walk, visit a friend, but I have to call, like, 12 people, and I have to think about the movements, and security has to be lined up. We can't do the ordinary things of life. You know, go to a movie theater or [laughs] I joked at COVID when people asked, when we were all in quarantine, "How did it feel?" And I was like, "Well, it was kinda easy for us because we've lived in quarantine-

Jay Shetty 14:00 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 14:01 ... for, like, you know, a decade."

Jay Shetty 14:03 Yeah, a decade, yeah.

Michelle Obama 14:03 And so you learn to live in this smaller footprint. But it's, that's a tough thing-

Jay Shetty 14:10 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 14:10 ... that I don't think people think about when they think of power and fame.

Jay Shetty 14:14 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 14:14 And there, there are some downsides to it.

Jay Shetty 14:16 Yeah. And, and what do, what do people want the most from you? And because I love the idea of what you were saying, of being open.

Michelle Obama 14:23 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 14:23 It's such, that mindset is so special.

Michelle Obama 14:25 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 14:26 I guess when that, when you are open, then, like you said, you can get over that hurt.

Michelle Obama 14:30 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 14:30 What is the hurt that you usually have to get over, or most commonly that you've had to deal with?

Michelle Obama 14:35 Well, the, maybe hurt is too strong of a word.

Jay Shetty 14:37 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 14:38 Um, again, because we're older. It's just the loss of a piece of yourself.

Jay Shetty 14:43 Right.

Michelle Obama 14:44 You know? I mean, people always ask me, w- I was in Chicago the other day, and every time I go back to Chicago, people are like, "Do you miss Chicago?" I miss the Chicago that we knew before we were here.

Jay Shetty 14:56 Wow. That's powerful, yeah.

Michelle Obama 14:57 That Chicago is no longer available to us.

Jay Shetty 15:00 To you, yes. Yeah.

Michelle Obama 15:01 You know?

Jay Shetty 15:02 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 15:02 The way we loved it in that way, and that's, that's a loss. Is it a hurt? I- is it personal? No, it's just the way life is, but it's still a loss. You know, my husband loves New York, and it was interesting, he thought for a second, because he's been more isolated than me.

Jay Shetty 15:20 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 15:21 He thought for a minute, "When we leave the White House, we'll live in New York." [laughs] I was like, "Dude, you can't live in New York."

Jay Shetty 15:29 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 15:29 [laughs] And it's just, he cannot access the wonderful city of New York in the way that he remembered when he was in his 20s. Because guess what we can't do? We can't walk down the street.

Jay Shetty 15:41 Mm.

Michelle Obama 15:42 We can't get on the subway. We can't necessarily walk through Central Park without a big plan.

Jay Shetty 15:48 Mm.

Michelle Obama 15:48 You know, the things that make New York, New York, we can't access it. That's the part I don't... You know, the people part, the connection to people part-

Jay Shetty 15:58 Mm

Michelle Obama 15:58 ... I never get exhausted by that-

Jay Shetty 16:00 Understood

Michelle Obama 16:00 ... because I'm open.

Jay Shetty 16:01 Yes.

Michelle Obama 16:01 Right? So it's not the people.

Jay Shetty 16:03 It's a great distinction.

Michelle Obama 16:04 Right? It's just the way you wanna live your life, especially when you're open, right? You wanna be open. You wanna be in the midst of people, and we've lost that.

Jay Shetty 16:16 Absolutely.

Michelle Obama 16:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 16:17 I think what's beautiful about this book, The Light We Carry, and Becoming, is it shows us just how many trials, challenges, setbacks that you've had to overcome and that you've gone through in your life so elegantly, gracefully, tactfully, you know, with, with so much determination and drive. And I'm intrigued that after having overcome so much, like you said, climbing Mount Everest, using that as our, as our analogy,

Jay Shetty 16:45 what is the thing that keeps you up at night now, or what is, is your biggest fear now after having overcome so many?

Michelle Obama 16:52 It has less to do with me personally and more to do with the world that we're in. There's such a thing as knowing too much. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 16:59 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 17:00 And when you've been married to the President of the United States, who knows everything about everything in the world, sometimes you just wanna turn it off.

Jay Shetty 17:07 You know too much. [laughs]

Michelle Obama 17:08 Right. It's like, I don't know, I don't wanna know what was in that folder that you just got that made you quiet.

Jay Shetty 17:14 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 17:14 You know? I don't wanna know why the security just pulled you over.

Jay Shetty 17:18 Mm.

Michelle Obama 17:19 I mean, it could be any range of things that comes across the desk of the leader of the free world, right? So I know a lot about what's going on, and what keeps me up are the things that I know.

Jay Shetty 17:32 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 17:32 Um, the war in the region, in too many regions. What is AI gonna do for us? The environment, you know. Are we moving at all fast enough? What are we doing about education?

Jay Shetty 17:45 Mm.

Michelle Obama 17:45 Are people gonna vote? And why aren't people voting? Are we too stuck to our phones? I mean, those are-

Jay Shetty 17:52 Yeah

Michelle Obama 17:52 ... the things-

Jay Shetty 17:52 Yeah

Michelle Obama 17:52 ... that keep me up because you, you don't have control over them.

Jay Shetty 17:56 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 17:57 And you wonder, where are people at, where are we in this? You know, where are our hearts? What's gonna happen in this next election? I am terrified about what could possibly happen because our leaders matter, who we select, who speaks for us, who holds that bully pulpit. It affects us in ways that I, sometimes I think people take for granted. You know, the fact that people think that government, eh, you know, it's, is, does it really even do anything? And I'm like, oh my God, does government do everything for us? And we cannot take this democracy for granted. And sometimes I f- I worry that we do. Those are the things-

Jay Shetty 18:37 Mm

Michelle Obama 18:37 ... that keep me up.

Jay Shetty 18:38 What, what habits have you developed? Because I think people may not have access to the news you do, but I think people can definitely relate-

Michelle Obama 18:47 Yes, yes

Jay Shetty 18:47 ... to what you're saying of like-

Michelle Obama 18:49 Absolutely

Jay Shetty 18:49 ... Jay, I'm just seeing all the news on my phone. I'm connected to the TV. I'm hearing things from friends and family. Like, I think a lot of people can relate to you saying, "I feel like I know too much."

Michelle Obama 18:58 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 18:58 What are some of the habits

Jay Shetty 19:00 and practices or rules that you've developed that have really become your saving grace? Because like you said, to you it's not just a news update, it's a folder.

Michelle Obama 19:09 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 19:09 It's the person calling.

Michelle Obama 19:10 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 19:10 It's a-

Michelle Obama 19:11 Yeah

Jay Shetty 19:11 ... private meeting, whatever-

Michelle Obama 19:12 Yeah

Jay Shetty 19:12 ... it may be. You're, in one sense it's even more extreme because you're so privy to the actual reality as opposed to a news channel, which is-

Michelle Obama 19:21 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 19:21 ... part of reality.

Michelle Obama 19:22 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 19:22 So.

Michelle Obama 19:22 Yeah. One of the most important practices i- is deliberately turning that off-

Jay Shetty 19:29 Mm

Michelle Obama 19:29 ... for a moment, or more than a moment. And I encourage that. I think our phones are sort of the regular man's equivalent to what I just described.

Jay Shetty 19:41 Mm.

Michelle Obama 19:42 We're too connected all the time. We're reading too much. We're taking too much in. We are constantly being fed by images, and that's become the norm, and it's, we, we've been sort of marketed that that's cool.

Jay Shetty 19:57 Mm.

Michelle Obama 19:57 That's what we should want. But our brains are not. We are, we are not that sophisticated a species.

Jay Shetty 20:05 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 20:05 We have not evolved enough to be able to take in that much information on a constant basis, and our kids certainly are not prepared to handle it. I think that ha- plays a huge role in the higher rates of depression and suicide among young people. They've gotta let their brains rest-

Jay Shetty 20:25 Yeah

Michelle Obama 20:25 ... from the noise. Even though, you know, we're all trying to fix everything, everyone needs a break from it, right?

Jay Shetty 20:33 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 20:33 So I'm very deliberate about knowing that I can't take all that in and, and, and we're getting it in such a sort of misinterpreted way, right?

Jay Shetty 20:43 Mm.

Michelle Obama 20:43 We've got, you know, confirmation bias. We're reading only what we already believe, and I know I have to be very deliberate about, you know, understanding that a lot of the information I'm getting isn't even complete. I do filter-

Jay Shetty 21:02 Yes

Michelle Obama 21:02 ... you know? And then I, I develop habits that shut my brain off to thinking.

Jay Shetty 21:09 Mm.

Michelle Obama 21:09 Right? I, I wrote in The Light about knitting-

Jay Shetty 21:12 Mm

Michelle Obama 21:12 ... you know, which is, uh, a habit that I, I developed, a hobby that I developed over quarantine.

Jay Shetty 21:17 And that's because it makes you so present and so-

Michelle Obama 21:20 It, it-

Jay Shetty 21:20 ... engaged

Michelle Obama 21:21 ... it, it shuts your brain down and allows your, your hands, the motion, to take over.

Jay Shetty 21:27 Mm.

Michelle Obama 21:28 And in that way I've found that it is meditative, right? Um, and that's what meditation is. It's quieting your noisy mind. And some of us can't connect to meditation, but I think we need it.

Jay Shetty 21:40 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 21:41 I, I think biologically we need to shut that part of ourselves down to get a rest from it. And I find that knitting does it. Exercise does it.

Jay Shetty 21:50 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 21:51 Um, learning something physical shuts my mind down. I mean, I've taken up tennis, and there's nothing that shuts my mind down than running after a green ball-

Jay Shetty 22:01 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 22:02 ... and trying to figure out, move your feet, hit the ball.

Jay Shetty 22:05 Oh, it's the feet. [laughs]

Michelle Obama 22:06 Follow through. It's like, yeah. Um, that shuts my mind down. For the hour or 90 minutes that I'm doing that thing, I'm not worrying.

Jay Shetty 22:15 Mm.

Michelle Obama 22:16 You know? I'm breathing.

Jay Shetty 22:17 Mm.

Michelle Obama 22:17 I'm outside. I'm letting the sun hit my face. I am, those habits and routines of creating something, right? And we're do- we do that less and less now.

Jay Shetty 22:30 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 22:30 It's like everything is all in the mind.

Jay Shetty 22:32 Yes.

Michelle Obama 22:32 It's all technology. But I think we need something where, the thing I, I love about knitting is that at the end of it, I've made something.

Jay Shetty 22:41 Yeah. [laughs]

Michelle Obama 22:42 You know? It's ju- it's, it's just satisfying in a very different way from problem-solving or analysis.

Jay Shetty 22:49 Yes.

Michelle Obama 22:49 Right?

Jay Shetty 22:50 Yes.

Michelle Obama 22:50 Building, creating, painting, drawing, fixing. Putting something real into the world that came from your own hands.

Jay Shetty 22:58 Yes.

Michelle Obama 22:58 Something small, you know?

Jay Shetty 23:00 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 23:00 That's why I talk about the power of small in the light we carry, because a lot of times our brains are trying to do the big fix.

Jay Shetty 23:08 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 23:08 And that's when we feel hopeless and we're tired, because w- most of us don't have the power to fix anything on, at a big scale. But we can focus on the small things that we have control over.

Jay Shetty 23:23 Mm.

Michelle Obama 23:24 You know, making a sweater for your daughter, helping mentor a child in your neighborhood, loving the children you bring into the world and making sure they have everything they need. That's where-

Jay Shetty 23:37 Mm

Michelle Obama 23:37 ... change happens.

Jay Shetty 23:38 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 23:38 Right?

Jay Shetty 23:39 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 23:39 And when I do those kinds of activities, I meditate into that power.

Jay Shetty 23:45 Yes.

Michelle Obama 23:45 Right? That small power. That there is satisfaction from hitting a stupid ball-

Jay Shetty 23:50 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 23:51 ... over a net.

Jay Shetty 23:52 Yes.

Michelle Obama 23:52 You know?

Jay Shetty 23:53 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 23:53 And getting a good swing out of it. It's like, it makes the day better because-

Jay Shetty 23:57 Yes

Michelle Obama 23:57 ... I served the ball right, or-

Jay Shetty 23:59 Yes

Michelle Obama 23:59 ... I finished a scarf.

Jay Shetty 24:01 Yeah. [laughs] I love, no, you're so right. I'm, and I'm

Jay Shetty 24:05 so glad you're using the word shutting down.

Michelle Obama 24:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:08 And the switch to analog. I remember at one point, and I think everyone can relate to this, you wake up to your phone.

Michelle Obama 24:15 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 24:15 I'd be brushing my teeth, I'm on my phone.

Michelle Obama 24:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:17 I'm eating breakfast, I'm on my phone.

Michelle Obama 24:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:20 You know, just your phone is now Tethered to your hand in every activity that you're doing throughout the day, and so your brain is never shutting down. And the interesting thing is we all know our phones need a reset.

Michelle Obama 24:32 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 24:32 They need a update.

Michelle Obama 24:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:33 They need a software refresh or whatever it may be. And I think I saw somewhere that the human brain today has to process, like, 74 gigabytes worth-

Michelle Obama 24:43 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 24:43 ... of information a day.

Michelle Obama 24:45 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:45 A day. And I was thinking, I remember when your phone didn't e-

Michelle Obama 24:48 And-

Jay Shetty 24:49 You know, it's a lot

Michelle Obama 24:49 ... a- and when you think about it, this is a brand-new technology.

Jay Shetty 24:52 Yes.

Michelle Obama 24:53 Right? You know, when we got into the White House, we c- we had BlackBerries, right?

Jay Shetty 24:58 Wow. Yeah.

Michelle Obama 24:59 Uh, social media wasn't a thing.

Jay Shetty 25:01 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 25:01 Right? All of that came into being in the eight years that we were in the White House, and it's just gone off like a rocket ship. We don't evolve that quickly.

Jay Shetty 25:12 Mm. Mm.

Michelle Obama 25:13 You know, humans, it takes generations for us to evolve. We haven't adapted to this new media. We haven't, we have not biologically-

Jay Shetty 25:21 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 25:22 ... adapted.

Jay Shetty 25:23 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 25:23 And so no wonder we're stressed.

Jay Shetty 25:26 Yes.

Michelle Obama 25:27 No wonder we're, we're full of anxiety. Um, no wonder our kids are struggling, you know, because we, we have a new technology, and we've just, we've, we've taken it in hook, line, and sinker. We're not even questioning how much. You know, the more, the merrier, right?

Jay Shetty 25:44 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 25:45 I think we need to be very mindful about this new gadget.

Jay Shetty 25:50 Yes.

Michelle Obama 25:51 And we have to be mindful for our kids-

Jay Shetty 25:53 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 25:53 ... because they have no filter, right?

Jay Shetty 25:56 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 25:56 They'll just be thumbing through this stuff, you know. Their, their mind's never sleeping, and as parents of my generation, we know so little about it, we don't e- we don't even know how to monitor it.

Jay Shetty 26:08 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 26:09 It's like cigarettes, right? Is it good for us?

Jay Shetty 26:12 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 26:12 I mean, at one point, everybody smoked.

Jay Shetty 26:15 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 26:15 Until we realized, oops, this isn't really-

Jay Shetty 26:18 Too late

Michelle Obama 26:18 ... really good for us, right?

Jay Shetty 26:20 Mm.

Michelle Obama 26:20 I think we, we have to be cautious about this, this new thing that we're just lapping up.

Jay Shetty 26:27 Yeah. I read a article a few years ago exactly, it was saying that today we absorb in one day, in 24 hours, the same amount of tragedy we would in our entire lifetime 25 years ago. Today, we absorb what we would in our entire lifetime in one day, and it felt real. You-

Michelle Obama 26:47 And that's why people feel more panicked. I mean, Barack, my husband, is a, he's a fact-based guy.

Jay Shetty 26:54 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 26:54 He's a science guy. Sometimes it's not popular these days.

Jay Shetty 26:58 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 26:58 Right? Having a president that believes in facts and science and all that stuff, but he's one of those people. And he always says, you know, statistically speaking, especially when young people bemoan where we are today, he says, you know, "If you look at history and statistics, if you were to pick any time in human history to be born-

Jay Shetty 27:21 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 27:21 ... you'd want to be born now."

Jay Shetty 27:23 Mm.

Michelle Obama 27:23 Crime, war, those rates are at the lowest, but nobody feels that.

Jay Shetty 27:29 Mm.

Michelle Obama 27:30 People feel more unsafe.

Jay Shetty 27:32 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 27:32 Why? Because they're, they're getting fed-

Jay Shetty 27:36 Yes

Michelle Obama 27:36 ... images of every crime that happens anywhere everywhere, right?

Jay Shetty 27:41 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 27:42 And when we were growing up, you just heard your local news.

Jay Shetty 27:44 Yeah. [laughs]

Michelle Obama 27:45 You know? It just like, oh, there was a fire or that-

Jay Shetty 27:47 Yeah

Michelle Obama 27:47 ... kid, you know, and you know. Now we're getting everything, not just from our community, but all over the world.

Jay Shetty 27:53 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 27:54 Stuff that's always been happening-

Jay Shetty 27:55 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 27:55 ... we just didn't know about it.

Jay Shetty 27:57 Yes.

Michelle Obama 27:57 We, now we know too much.

Jay Shetty 27:59 Yes.

Michelle Obama 28:00 And we're interpreting that to mean things are horrible. We went through world wars and depressions and famine. This isn't new. It's just we know everything.

Jay Shetty 28:11 Mm.

Michelle Obama 28:11 You know, it's one way to look at it.

Jay Shetty 28:12 Yes, yes, absolutely. And, and I think you're right because there's the incomplete information. I like the word incomplete that you said.

Michelle Obama 28:19 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 28:19 I appreciate that kind of subtle point. Incomplete information, then you have opinions, then you have feelings and emotions, and so there's, there's so much more information on every level. You have the physical information, the emotional information, the mental information, of course, the physical experience of it, and, and it, and it can be, it can be too much. One of the, uh... It's so interesting you use the analogy of climbing Mount Everest because I went to see a comedy show recently, and I'm trying to remember the comedian's name, so I'll have to find it afterwards and, and put him in there. But he literally was describing, he was saying relationships are like climbing Mount Everest.

Michelle Obama 28:55 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 28:55 And so what he said was, he goes, "You start at base camp," and he goes, "You and your partner are ready. You're ready to go."

Michelle Obama 29:00 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 29:00 "You're being guided. And then at one point, you're like, 'Oh, we're cold, but it's okay. We'll keep each other warm.'"

Michelle Obama 29:05 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:05 "We'll be fine."

Michelle Obama 29:05 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:06 And then he goes, "You get to the first stop, and you go, 'Oh, yeah, like, have you, have you, did you pack the, the gloves?'"

Michelle Obama 29:11 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:12 "Did you pack the gloves? And then your partner goes, 'Oh, no, I forgot the gloves.' And you're like, 'Oh, it's okay. It's okay.'"

Michelle Obama 29:16 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:16 "We'll just keep our hands warm." Then you get a bit higher, and then they were like, "Now it's got to a point where it's really cold," and you go, "Why did you forget those gloves?"

Michelle Obama 29:23 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:23 Like, you know, it's like the pre- like, come on, like, why did you forget those gloves? Then you get to the next stop, and your partner says to you like, "You packed the sandwiches, right?"

Michelle Obama 29:30 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:31 And then you look at the sandwiches like, "I don't know where the sandwiches are." Anyway, and so you talk about this so much in your work and your book, like, relationships are challenging. They're difficult. I think you've been together now for over 30 years, 31?

Michelle Obama 29:42 31 years.

Jay Shetty 29:42 31 years. Congratulations.

Michelle Obama 29:44 October, yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:45 Okay, amazing. 31 years, congratulations.

Michelle Obama 29:47 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 29:48 That's incredible and so inspiring in so many ways. My wife and I have been together for 10 years, and-

Michelle Obama 29:53 That counts

Jay Shetty 29:54 ... counts, and, and, you know-

Michelle Obama 29:55 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:56 ... definitely, like, can see the, the challenges unforeseen and seen that come with being together over long periods of time. My wife and I, in 2016, we both changed jobs. So we got married, we changed jobs, and moved country. So we moved from London to New York that year. We both quit our jobs in London. I could work here. My wife couldn't at the time because of her visa, and we started new lives, and we obviously moved home, and we were away from our families, and that year was It brought us closer, thankfully, but it was a very challenging, difficult year because I've heard that those are some of the hardest things you can do. The only thing we didn't do was have a kid.

Michelle Obama 30:35 That's right.

Jay Shetty 30:36 Uh, and when-

Michelle Obama 30:36 You, you covered all the hard bases. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 30:38 Yeah, apart from president and first lady.

Michelle Obama 30:39 Okay. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 30:39 I think that, that takes it. But when you're going through all these challenges, you've talked about these many, many times before,

Jay Shetty 30:45 has there ever been a time when you've said things or done things and afterwards thought, "I wish I didn't do that. I wish I didn't say that"?

Michelle Obama 30:52 What, in my marriage?

Jay Shetty 30:52 Yes, yeah.

Michelle Obama 30:53 Of course. I- yesterday. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 30:57 [laughs] I love that. How do, how do you, how do you, because you've been together for 31 years, how do you rectify something like that when you know... Because there's a difference between being spiteful or being silly, but, like, when you really feel like, "I shouldn't have done that, I shouldn't have said that," like, how do you address something that-

Michelle Obama 31:13 You know, that's the practice of relationships, right? After 31 years, yeah, we still do it, but you know it-

Jay Shetty 31:20 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 31:20 ... quicker, and then you, you apologize, you know? You g- you learn how to say, "My bad," [laughs] right? And that takes, that takes a second, right?

Jay Shetty 31:29 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 31:29 You know, that's why I talk about relationships in the light.

Jay Shetty 31:32 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 31:32 I talk about marriage because I, I just think that, number one, most people don't talk about it.

Jay Shetty 31:37 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 31:37 Like, our parents didn't talk about your marriage.

Jay Shetty 31:41 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 31:41 You didn't talk about your feelings. You didn't talk about, your parents didn't tell you about the challenges that we're facing, so why?

Jay Shetty 31:47 Mm.

Michelle Obama 31:47 Why don't we share the whole experience?

Jay Shetty 31:50 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 31:50 Because what happens is that by not knowing, you hit in, in your relationship some natural, like, understandable rough patches.

Jay Shetty 32:01 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 32:02 And you wanna quit.

Jay Shetty 32:03 Mm.

Michelle Obama 32:03 And it's like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. That's not quit-worthy.

Jay Shetty 32:07 Mm.

Michelle Obama 32:07 That's just, that's the, just the nature of things, you know?

Jay Shetty 32:10 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 32:10 That's why I joked, it's like, oh, you're mad at your partner? You, you're mad for a year?

Jay Shetty 32:16 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 32:16 And you think the marriage is over? Nah, nah.

Jay Shetty 32:19 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 32:20 You're gonna have decades of-

Jay Shetty 32:22 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 32:23 ... I don't know if I like you, you know?

Jay Shetty 32:25 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 32:25 Because over the span of a 30-year marriage, yeah, you cobble together enough arguments and you got a decade, right?

Jay Shetty 32:33 Mm, mm. [laughs]

Michelle Obama 32:34 And that's just the way it goes-

Jay Shetty 32:36 Yeah

Michelle Obama 32:36 ... but you don't quit on it, right?

Jay Shetty 32:38 Mm-hmm, mm.

Michelle Obama 32:38 You learn from it, and that's what sustaining a relationship is. It's the choice to figure it out.

Jay Shetty 32:45 Mm.

Michelle Obama 32:46 Not to quit when it gets hard. So yeah, I said something that I didn't mean to say.

Jay Shetty 32:51 Mm.

Michelle Obama 32:51 Right? Year, year five we might have had hurt feelings, and it would have taken days to rectify it. Year 30, it's like, eh, there she goes again, or there he goes again. I know when, how to talk to him about it and when because we've practiced it.

Jay Shetty 33:09 Mm.

Michelle Obama 33:10 We've made a lot of mistakes. We've gotten it wrong, and after 31 years we're getting better at it.

Jay Shetty 33:17 Mm.

Michelle Obama 33:18 And it gets better and better and better. You know, look, if you lived with your roommate for 30 years, you would hate them-

Jay Shetty 33:25 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 33:26 ... at some point in time.

Jay Shetty 33:28 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 33:28 But it wouldn't be some defining thing.

Jay Shetty 33:30 Mm.

Michelle Obama 33:30 You have friendships. If they last long, you're gonna have some falling out. Why do we put so much pressure on marriage to-

Jay Shetty 33:37 Mm

Michelle Obama 33:37 ... to not be hard?

Jay Shetty 33:39 Mm.

Michelle Obama 33:40 It's the natural hardest thing you will ever do-

Jay Shetty 33:43 Mm

Michelle Obama 33:43 ... which is to try to build a life with another person who wasn't raised in your shoes-

Jay Shetty 33:49 Mm

Michelle Obama 33:49 ... who has a totally different temperament, right? And you're, like, having other people with them.

Jay Shetty 33:54 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 33:55 You know? You bring other lives and other personalities-

Jay Shetty 33:58 Yeah

Michelle Obama 33:58 ... into the mix, and then life is happening.

Jay Shetty 34:01 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 34:02 Of course it's gonna be hard.

Jay Shetty 34:03 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 34:03 You know? But I wouldn't trade in my marriage for anything in the world with all the ups and downs, with all the running for president stuff. I was like, "Why'd you do that?" I mean, talk about that being a big gaping [laughs] ...

Jay Shetty 34:18 [laughs] Yeah. Transition, yeah

Michelle Obama 34:19 ... thing in our lives. But the good has outweighed it, and if we hadn't hung in there, we would have missed all the good.

Jay Shetty 34:26 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 34:27 And that's what I tell young people. Like, first of all, pick well. Pick somebody you respect and like. Start there.

Jay Shetty 34:35 Mm.

Michelle Obama 34:35 Right? And then remember that that's who they are.

Jay Shetty 34:38 Mm.

Michelle Obama 34:38 And then understand that with that they are going to be and you are gonna be deeply, deeply flawed.

Jay Shetty 34:45 Mm. [laughs]

Michelle Obama 34:45 And you're gonna make a whole lot of mistakes.

Jay Shetty 34:48 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 34:49 Right? But in the end, you can look that person in the eye and you go, "You're still the person that I like and love and respect, and we can figure this out."

Jay Shetty 34:58 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 34:58 So I share that.

Jay Shetty 34:59 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 35:00 Because I don't want people looking at me and Barack like, uh, hashtag couples goals-

Jay Shetty 35:04 Yeah

Michelle Obama 35:05 ... and not know that, no, no, there are some broken things that happen even in the best of marriages.

Jay Shetty 35:11 Absolutely. And, and you used that term quit-worthy. Is that something that you defined for yourself what you saw as quit-worthy and what you saw as not quit-worthy?

Michelle Obama 35:20 That's a, that's a good question. Look,

Michelle Obama 35:22 I think there, there are some objective quit-worthy things-

Jay Shetty 35:25 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 35:25 ... like criminality. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 35:27 Mm-hmm, of course, yeah.

Michelle Obama 35:28 Abuse. But hey, that's, that's, that's me, you know? There's some people who love through a whole lot of things.

Jay Shetty 35:35 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 35:36 So I think that has to be individual. But if I were talking to my daughters, I wouldn't want them in, to stay in a marriage that made them feel oppressed, that was an overall negative to who they were.

Jay Shetty 35:50 Mm.

Michelle Obama 35:51 Right?

Jay Shetty 35:51 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 35:52 I do think there are reasons to walk away from marriage, friendship, a whole, jobs, a whole lot of things, right?

Jay Shetty 35:59 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 35:59 So yeah, I have a clear list of, like-

Jay Shetty 36:02 Yeah

Michelle Obama 36:02 ... the non-negotiables.

Jay Shetty 36:04 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 36:04 But everybody has their own.

Jay Shetty 36:06 Yeah, absolutely, and I think that's so important that, you know, everyone who's listening or watching, that idea of having our own-

Michelle Obama 36:13 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 36:13 ... quit-worthy definition is, is such a need because it can get really hard to find clarity when you get really deep into something. Uh, a practice that I love doing with a lot of my clients and even people that I work with or online is I ask everyone to write down ... the needs that they have in their life.

Michelle Obama 36:31 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 36:31 And then write down the people that fill those needs, and it could be themselves, too, some of them, and then some of them are their friends, their mom, their dad. And of course, in your book, like, we notice, like, your mom's, like, wisdom, right?

Michelle Obama 36:42 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 36:42 Like, like she's the Buddha in your life, as you say.

Michelle Obama 36:45 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:45 You, you see different people. What are the roles that you initially wanted President Obama to fill that you then realized they actually needed to be filled by other people?

Michelle Obama 36:54 Oh, that's a good question. Um, I write about it.

Jay Shetty 36:58 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 36:58 The fact that, you know, we, we are two very independent, ambitious, smart people, and complex, you know, as, as individuals. We, you know, we're dynamic in... You know, I'm not s- saying that as a ego trip, but we were-

Jay Shetty 37:14 No, I know what you mean.

Michelle Obama 37:15 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 37:15 You're constantly in flux and-

Michelle Obama 37:16 That's exactly right

Jay Shetty 37:17 ... yeah, yeah.

Michelle Obama 37:18 And I learned, it took me a while to learn that, you know, there's no way we could be everything to each other.

Jay Shetty 37:25 Mm.

Michelle Obama 37:25 We have different interests, different goals. There was this stage in my marriage where I thought that's what a partner was supposed to be.

Jay Shetty 37:33 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 37:33 You know, you should call me all the time. We should talk all the time. We should be each other's best friends all the time. Our marriage got better when I got better about that because I think he already had that independence, this, this notion of, "I love you."

Jay Shetty 37:49 Mm.

Michelle Obama 37:49 "I don't, even if I don't talk to you today." That, to me, is like, I don't need that. I felt like I needed more of that.

Jay Shetty 37:57 Mm.

Michelle Obama 37:57 But as I got older, right, got more mature, more clear about my own goals, I realized that I, you know, he can't be responsible for my happiness.

Jay Shetty 38:08 Mm.

Michelle Obama 38:08 I have to be responsible for that. I have to define it for myself. I have to learn how to achieve it. My husband is definitely a part of that-

Jay Shetty 38:16 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 38:16 ... but he is not the... He c- I cannot put him in the center of my happiness.

Jay Shetty 38:22 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 38:22 That freed me up to let him be him and let me be me. So I have friends who give me things that my husband doesn't give me. I have girlfriends who have... One distinction that we have is, like, I'm a talker.

Jay Shetty 38:38 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 38:39 All right? When I sit down with my girlfriends, we can talk for days.

Jay Shetty 38:44 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 38:44 I mean literally for days. We can take a break for lunch, but we can talk.

Jay Shetty 38:48 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 38:49 You know? My husband's not... He, he can talk, but he, he will come by a friendship session. You know, 9:00 in the morning, I have a friend staying with me, and he's like, "What are y'all talking about?"

Jay Shetty 39:00 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 39:00 It's like, "Well, we're just now getting into our kids."

Jay Shetty 39:03 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 39:04 "And we're gonna talk about each one of them separately for, like, an hour." Right?

Jay Shetty 39:07 Wow.

Michelle Obama 39:08 He's like, "I c- I couldn't do that."

Jay Shetty 39:09 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 39:10 Right?

Jay Shetty 39:10 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 39:10 He can't be that for me, but I have really good-

Jay Shetty 39:14 Mm

Michelle Obama 39:14 ... mostly girlfriends who give me that.

Jay Shetty 39:17 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 39:17 You know?

Jay Shetty 39:17 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 39:17 Like, we will dissect life to the bitter... We will wring everything out of every subject.

Jay Shetty 39:23 Yes, yes.

Michelle Obama 39:23 And he's like, "I think I'm done."

Jay Shetty 39:25 Yes.

Michelle Obama 39:25 And it's like, "Well, you can go be done 'cause I've got her, and we just got started."

Jay Shetty 39:30 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 39:30 "We're gonna, we got 12 more hours to go," right? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 39:33 [laughs] And, and that's so beautiful to hear because I think, especially when we're young, we think that that person has to be all of that and, and from the beginning and, or they'll become it. There's the other fallacy of, like, "Oh, well, I know who they could be-

Michelle Obama 39:48 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 39:48 ... and who they could become." How much of that did you feel you had to disconnect and detach from of, like, what this person could be, to you obviously, not in the world, but?

Michelle Obama 39:57 I had to disconnect from all of those beliefs, right? Um, and every couple is different I've found. I, I know people who are each other's best friends. They like to travel together. They walk and hold hands.

Jay Shetty 40:10 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 40:10 And I, I have friends who are in relationships where they talk, like, every hour.

Jay Shetty 40:14 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 40:15 I'm like, "Are you talking to him again?"

Jay Shetty 40:17 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 40:17 "Nothing changed." You know, it's up to the individuals-

Jay Shetty 40:21 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 40:21 ... to define that for themselves, um-

Jay Shetty 40:23 That's the key word, yeah

Michelle Obama 40:24 ... for Barack and I. And I think you should be clear about that.

Jay Shetty 40:27 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 40:27 Because the other thing is that when we hold on internally to an expectation of the other person, we don't even share it. So now we're mad that you haven't even fulfilled something I never even told you I needed. You know?

Jay Shetty 40:39 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 40:39 That takes time-

Jay Shetty 40:40 Yes

Michelle Obama 40:40 ... and it takes work, which is why marriage is hard.

Jay Shetty 40:43 Yes.

Michelle Obama 40:43 Right? Because you'll have the tendency to live in your head and live out the image of what you want them to be, and you haven't even communicated that to them.

Jay Shetty 40:51 Yes.

Michelle Obama 40:51 That's just one little fraction of the challenge of marriage-

Jay Shetty 40:55 Yes

Michelle Obama 40:55 ... and friendship-

Jay Shetty 40:56 Yes

Michelle Obama 40:56 ... and all of that.

Jay Shetty 40:57 Yes.

Michelle Obama 40:57 It's hard.

Jay Shetty 40:58 Mm.

Michelle Obama 40:58 It takes time.

Jay Shetty 40:59 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 40:59 But it's worth it.

Jay Shetty 41:00 Absolutely. Yeah. I think those, those check-ins are the hardest. I, I know that there's, there's four check-ins that I try and keep a good habit around with my wife that have really helped me. One of them is every day I'll ask her, like, "What was your highlight today?" Or, "What did you learn today?" Something, something positive.

Michelle Obama 41:18 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:18 Something like, "What's, what's the best thing that happened to you today? I wanna know."

Michelle Obama 41:21 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 41:21 Because it's so easy for us to get so busy in our days, not see each other all day, not speak all day, and days can go by like that, too, because we're also traveling. Then every week I try and ask her, like, "How can I, what can I help you with this week?" Like, is there something coming up that I just need to be aware of?

Michelle Obama 41:37 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:38 Sometimes it's just information.

Michelle Obama 41:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 41:39 And that gives me an opportunity to also tell her, "I've got a really stressful week coming up."

Michelle Obama 41:43 Right, right.

Jay Shetty 41:43 "Just know that I may not be at my best this week. I'm just letting you know." Uh, every month I'm, you know, checking in with her and trying to just say to her, like, uh, "What's, what's your big focus for this month?"

Michelle Obama 41:54 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 41:54 Like, you know, "What, what's the big thing that you're working on?" Then every year is easy, like, you know, "What's your goal this year or resolution" or whatever. And I find that those questions, and sometimes every quarter I'll ask a question which is the hardest one, but it's like, "Is this relationship going in the direction you want it to?"

Michelle Obama 42:10 Mm.

Jay Shetty 42:11 "And if it isn't, what are you willing to do, and what am I willing to do to get it back on track?"

Michelle Obama 42:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 42:17 Because I find so often, like, if you just don't talk about that-

Michelle Obama 42:20 Yeah

Jay Shetty 42:20 ... deep intimacy, you're just going on different tracks, and that's why five years later you're like, "Well, I don't know you anymore."

Michelle Obama 42:25 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 42:26 Um, and so I find that, like, staying in close contact.

Jay Shetty 42:29 But one of the biggest things I read, which I wanted to try with you, is, uh, the Gottman Institute talked about how the number one skill or habit ... in relationships, and they looked at couples who'd stayed together the longest, and they found it wasn't date nights.

Michelle Obama 42:43 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 42:43 It wasn't vacations. It wasn't any of this stuff. It was learning how to fight.

Michelle Obama 42:48 Oh, for sure.

Jay Shetty 42:49 It was-

Michelle Obama 42:49 Yeah

Jay Shetty 42:49 ... knowing how to deal with conflict, and most couples, obviously, we all go, "Well, we never fight," or, "We're never gonna fight," but it's inevitable. So I came up with these three fight styles, and I wanted to know-

Michelle Obama 42:59 Okay

Jay Shetty 42:59 ... how you see yourself and how you see President Obama or how he would see him- himself. And so here, the three fight styles are a venter, which means I wanna fix and solve it right now.

Michelle Obama 43:10 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 43:10 You like to vent.

Michelle Obama 43:11 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 43:11 You're really trying to fix and solve it. The second one is you're a hider. You need time and space to think about it.

Michelle Obama 43:16 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 43:16 Just wanna go spend time by yourself. And then the third one is the exploder, where it's like I want my emotions to be heard, felt, and seen before we take time apart or-

Michelle Obama 43:26 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 43:26 ... before we try and solve it. Which one are you?

Michelle Obama 43:29 Okay, so I've changed over-

Jay Shetty 43:30 Interesting

Michelle Obama 43:30 ... I think early on in our relationships, I was more of an exploder.

Jay Shetty 43:35 Wow.

Michelle Obama 43:36 I think he has been, always been a fixer.

Jay Shetty 43:38 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 43:39 Right?

Jay Shetty 43:39 The venter, yeah.

Michelle Obama 43:40 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 43:40 Fixer, yeah.

Michelle Obama 43:41 So then I would be explosive and then wanna hide, right?

Jay Shetty 43:44 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 43:44 It's like I wanna explode. Let me have my emotions, and then give me a moment.

Jay Shetty 43:49 Yes.

Michelle Obama 43:49 Right? And he's like, "We've gotta fix this. We've gotta, you know, shut this down. We gotta, I will figure it out. Let's talk this through."

Jay Shetty 43:56 Yes.

Michelle Obama 43:56 Um, and I love that about him, especially as a man.

Jay Shetty 44:00 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 44:00 You know, he is somebody that is n- not afraid to put his emotions out. He's smart, and so he knows me, so he's like, he won't let me pretend like there's nothing wrong because he knows I know there's something. You're a little off and, um, but I've had to learn that exploding on a fixer, it doesn't feel good to them.

Jay Shetty 44:23 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 44:24 Right?

Jay Shetty 44:24 Yes, yes.

Michelle Obama 44:24 It just, you know, it feels good for me.

Jay Shetty 44:26 Yes.

Michelle Obama 44:27 But it doesn't feel good for him, right?

Jay Shetty 44:29 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 44:30 But he's learned that as a hider that I do need a little more time.

Jay Shetty 44:35 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 44:36 Right? If I'm exploding, I can't be rational enough to talk through your fixing.

Jay Shetty 44:42 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 44:42 And you, and if you wanna fix it, then I've gotta be in a rational place.

Jay Shetty 44:46 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 44:46 So let me hide for a minute so-

Jay Shetty 44:48 Mm

Michelle Obama 44:48 ... I can get myself down to a fixer place.

Jay Shetty 44:51 Yes.

Michelle Obama 44:52 I think that's been the trajectory-

Jay Shetty 44:54 Wow

Michelle Obama 44:54 ... of our sorting through learning how to argue, but I like, I like those. But he's, he's been pretty consistent.

Jay Shetty 45:02 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 45:02 He is consistently the fixer.

Jay Shetty 45:04 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 45:05 You know? And he's also much more even keel, you know, than I am emotionally.

Jay Shetty 45:10 Yes.

Michelle Obama 45:10 Um, we're just different people in that way, and he's learned not to be too afraid of the explosiveness.

Jay Shetty 45:17 Yes.

Michelle Obama 45:18 It's like I don't mean it. I'm just saying it-

Jay Shetty 45:21 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 45:22 ... right now 'cause I need to say it.

Jay Shetty 45:24 Yes.

Michelle Obama 45:24 Right?

Jay Shetty 45:25 And that awareness that you're just displaying there is so powerful to, to witness because you realize, wow, it's not as serious as I'm making it out to be.

Michelle Obama 45:32 Right, that's right.

Jay Shetty 45:32 It's important.

Michelle Obama 45:33 That's right, that's right.

Jay Shetty 45:34 It's, it's important, and I need to take note of it, but it's, I don't need to deal with it in this, you know-

Michelle Obama 45:39 Right, right

Jay Shetty 45:40 ... serious way, yeah.

Michelle Obama 45:40 Well, and it's maturing. We all say, well, say what's on your mind.

Jay Shetty 45:44 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 45:44 You know, tell it like it is.

Jay Shetty 45:45 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 45:45 And it's like, yeah, I'm, that tends to be who I am.

Jay Shetty 45:49 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 45:49 But as you get older, you realize, yeah, that's your heart, but your head tells you, you wanna be heard.

Jay Shetty 45:56 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 45:56 And you have to think about who you're talking to and what your end goal is.

Jay Shetty 46:01 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 46:01 Because that will dictate how you have to communicate to them.

Jay Shetty 46:05 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 46:06 So when you're young, you just wanna be heard.

Jay Shetty 46:08 Yes.

Michelle Obama 46:09 As you get older, you have a goal.

Jay Shetty 46:11 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 46:11 You want to achieve something.

Jay Shetty 46:13 Mm. Well said.

Michelle Obama 46:14 And being heard in the way you say it may not get you to your goal.

Jay Shetty 46:19 Yes.

Michelle Obama 46:20 I mean, that's at the crux for me of what going high is.

Jay Shetty 46:23 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 46:23 Right? I mean, going high is being strategic. If you're really trying to make change, you have to think about whether your approach will allow for change to happen.

Jay Shetty 46:34 Mm.

Michelle Obama 46:34 You know, going high means you're thinking about a broader point outside of your own anger or hurt or pain. You're thinking, "Where am I trying to get to, and how do I do that with this group that I'm trying to move?" That's passion matured-

Jay Shetty 46:49 Mm

Michelle Obama 46:50 ... into purpose. And young people often, they wanna just act with passion.

Jay Shetty 46:55 Yes.

Michelle Obama 46:56 Right? But passion doesn't always solve a thing.

Jay Shetty 47:00 Wow.

Michelle Obama 47:00 And I've learned that in my relationship. You know, my passion isn't, is meaningless if my husband can't hear it. You know? If I've hurt his-

Jay Shetty 47:09 Totally

Michelle Obama 47:09 ... feelings in the process, well, what's, that's not the point, you know? So I have to mature my passion. You know?

Jay Shetty 47:17 Wow.

Michelle Obama 47:17 I have to mature it as a mother, right? I have to be very careful as a mother with the words I say. I can't just say what's on my mind. I can, I have to think about how I say it to which child.

Jay Shetty 47:29 Yes.

Michelle Obama 47:29 Because they're both different, and they both need to be parented different, right? So going high is like, to me, it's the mature way to live.

Jay Shetty 47:38 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 47:39 Right?

Jay Shetty 47:39 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 47:40 It's the, it's a mature way to get the message across. It doesn't mean that how you feel isn't relevant, right?

Jay Shetty 47:46 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 47:47 It's true. It's real and true. But that's, that's for you to deal with.

Jay Shetty 47:52 1,000%.

Michelle Obama 47:52 When you're dealing with external people, whether it's your husband or your kids or your friends, your passion has to take way to, well, well, what's gonna work with this person?

Jay Shetty 48:03 Mm.

Michelle Obama 48:04 What's gonna work with this group of people? To me, that's what going high is.

Jay Shetty 48:08 Yeah. What a great definition. I think you're the best person to have this conversation with. I love how you explain the need for that, and actually, I, I don't think I've heard it explained in that way before. I really appreciate it because

Jay Shetty 48:20 I think currently we've confused being authentic and being strategic. What you were just saying is when you're sharing how you feel, you are being authentic.

Michelle Obama 48:29 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 48:30 But maybe it won't be authentically received or heard or seen because it wasn't strategically perceived. But we sometimes today perceive strategy as manipulation-

Michelle Obama 48:41 That's right

Jay Shetty 48:41 ... or as a technique-

Michelle Obama 48:42 Yeah

Jay Shetty 48:42 ... as opposed to-

Michelle Obama 48:43 Or selling out

Jay Shetty 48:44 ... or selling out.

Michelle Obama 48:45 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 48:45 Right. W- walk me through that because I think how we perceive, we, we've put authenticity on a pedestal, which is not wrong, but we've put strategy as, like The thing that you kind of, you know, shun

Michelle Obama 48:58 Well, and maybe strategy is too strategic or hard of a word

Jay Shetty 49:02 Word, right

Michelle Obama 49:03 But you could replace that with empathy.

Jay Shetty 49:05 Mm.

Michelle Obama 49:05 Right? You know, if you were-

Jay Shetty 49:07 Or connectivity, yeah

Michelle Obama 49:07 Connectivity. It's sort of like, who am I trying to move?

Jay Shetty 49:12 Mm.

Michelle Obama 49:12 And where are they in this?

Jay Shetty 49:14 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 49:14 Right? And when you're the President of the United States or the First Lady, you have a big platform, I've always felt like I have a responsibility to set my feelings aside and think about, where are you?

Jay Shetty 49:30 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 49:30 Why are you so angry? Where is your hate coming from?

Jay Shetty 49:33 Mm.

Michelle Obama 49:34 Because, yeah, I can be mad at your hate. I can be mad that you're, you know, you just said something racist, or you knocked me down a peg, or you misjudged me. But if I'm trying to fix the relationship-

Jay Shetty 49:48 Mm

Michelle Obama 49:48 ... I've got to understand, what are you going through?

Jay Shetty 49:50 Mm.

Michelle Obama 49:51 Where did that perception come from? What's your history? What put you in this spirit of hate?

Jay Shetty 49:58 Mm.

Michelle Obama 49:58 Because that's gonna dictate how we can even begin to have the conversation.

Jay Shetty 50:03 Yes.

Michelle Obama 50:03 I don't lose my authenticity in that, because I know who I am, right? But I have to make room to understand who you are. That's either strategy or empathy, but to me, effective communication, especially if you're a leader-

Jay Shetty 50:19 Mm

Michelle Obama 50:19 ... if you have the power, it requires a step back.

Jay Shetty 50:23 Yes.

Michelle Obama 50:23 Right? And I think that's what going high is. And I do. You're right. I think in this day and age, we've kind of supplanted that consideration.

Jay Shetty 50:32 Mm.

Michelle Obama 50:33 Because my feelings count.

Jay Shetty 50:35 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 50:35 My voice has to be heard, which is also why I think we have to learn how to hear people throughout, right?

Jay Shetty 50:43 Yeah.

Michelle Obama 50:43 We have to give people a space to be heard outside of the anger, right? 'Cause that's where all that's coming from, right?

Jay Shetty 50:52 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 50:52 When people can't mature their response, it's because they don't have a voice.

Jay Shetty 50:57 Mm.

Michelle Obama 50:58 It's like, if I don't have a voice in regular conversation, then I will make you hear me.

Jay Shetty 51:03 Yes.

Michelle Obama 51:04 Right? Young people feel that way.

Jay Shetty 51:05 Absolutely.

Michelle Obama 51:06 Right? Op- oppressed people feel that way. People who don't have a stake in it-

Jay Shetty 51:12 Mm

Michelle Obama 51:12 ... feel that way, which is why I think it's strategic to give everybody a piece-

Jay Shetty 51:18 Mm

Michelle Obama 51:18 ... of something-

Jay Shetty 51:19 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 51:19 ... so that they feel seen and heard. I think that bring, that ratchets down the anger, the explosiveness.

Jay Shetty 51:28 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 51:28 Because people can guarantee that they are being seen. They'll be heard. They don't have to yell. They don't have to tear something apart.

Jay Shetty 51:35 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 51:35 They don't have to break it, because they own it, and we just lose sight of that-

Jay Shetty 51:41 1000%

Michelle Obama 51:42 ... these days in our policies and our perspectives. You can't shut people out.

Jay Shetty 51:47 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 51:47 You know, I, I talk about in the light when I think about kids from communities that are under-invested in, their, their anger, their l- lack of, like, I don't, none of this belongs to me, so why would I protect it?

Jay Shetty 52:04 Mm.

Michelle Obama 52:04 Why wouldn't I break down your house or rob you or try to take your car? Because I don't own any of this. This country is not mine. They don't see me, right? I think we do better with kids if they feel like, "I've got a chance here. This place is investing in me-

Jay Shetty 52:23 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 52:23 ... so I'm invested in it." We do that with kids in the inner, inner city, but we, you know, we don't talk about education. We don't talk about what we're giving them or whether they have music or, or joy or sports or activities. We just want them to have nothing and then be okay with it.

Jay Shetty 52:40 Mm.

Michelle Obama 52:41 But they're gonna fight to be heard.

Jay Shetty 52:42 Yes.

Michelle Obama 52:43 They're gonna fight to be seen, but they're not gonna do it in a rational way-

Jay Shetty 52:47 Mm

Michelle Obama 52:47 ... because they don't have a strategic place, and they don't feel like they're a part of it.

Jay Shetty 52:52 So true. So true. When

Jay Shetty 52:54 you're trying to go high, when you're trying to have this view of I wanna understand your story, I want to get inside your mindset and, and recognize why you have evolved in this direction or this particular path, if anything, what does still offend you, like?

Michelle Obama 53:10 Injustice, uh, ego, greed. It's offensive. Racism, ignorance, it's offensive, and I've always been that kid. I don't like unfairness.

Jay Shetty 53:22 Mm.

Michelle Obama 53:22 I don't like bullies.

Jay Shetty 53:23 Mm.

Michelle Obama 53:24 But I have to think about how I deliver messages-

Jay Shetty 53:28 That's beautiful

Michelle Obama 53:29 ... still, even in my pain and my anger and my disappointment. So th- those emotions are there.

Jay Shetty 53:35 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 53:36 But I have to think about, where do, where do I let that out? [laughs]

Jay Shetty 53:40 Yes.

Michelle Obama 53:41 In a safe space, and that's what my kitchen table is, right?

Jay Shetty 53:45 [laughs]

Michelle Obama 53:45 I still have those emotions, but in my public-facing voice, I have to be responsible-

Jay Shetty 53:52 Mm

Michelle Obama 53:52 ... right, and strategic and thoughtful about what's gonna move the needle, what's gonna add value. My emotional wellbeing gets taken care of at the kitchen table.

Jay Shetty 54:04 Mm.

Michelle Obama 54:04 I, I, I can't suffocate those feelings.

Jay Shetty 54:07 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 54:08 But I can't act them out in the town square-

Jay Shetty 54:11 Yeah

Michelle Obama 54:12 ... 'cause I'm just gonna add fuel to the fire, and that doesn't help if we're trying to move the needle. That's how it-

Jay Shetty 54:18 And that doesn't make you inauthentic.

Michelle Obama 54:19 I don't believe, 'cause those feelings are still mine, and if you ask me, I'll tell you what I'm angry about, but I, I'm not gonna lead with that. And in the midst of the message, I'll make it clear what I stand for and what I don't stand for, but the tone and tenor of the message matters.

Jay Shetty 54:36 Mm.

Michelle Obama 54:36 We can't just say what, what the first thing that comes to our minds. We cannot.

Jay Shetty 54:42 Mm.

Michelle Obama 54:42 That is not authenticity. To me, that's, that's childish, and we see childish leadership right before us, what that looks like and how that feels, where somebody is just base and vulgar and cynical. In a leadership position

Jay Shetty 55:02 Mm

Michelle Obama 55:02 ... it, it doesn't trickle down well, you know? That just begets more of that.

Jay Shetty 55:08 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 55:08 I think we are obligated to model, for those of us that have a platform-

Jay Shetty 55:13 Mm

Michelle Obama 55:13 ... because it resonates.

Jay Shetty 55:15 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 55:16 And I wanna resonate good. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 55:19 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Michelle Obama 55:20 I wanna resonate reason and compassion and empathy, and that's more important than my feelings.

Jay Shetty 55:27 Mm.

Michelle Obama 55:28 'Cause my feelings, I can take care of those.

Jay Shetty 55:31 Mm. That is, uh... that's, that's a masterclass in communication [laughs] right there. Genuinely, that is... To hear that from you with so much empathy but energy is so empowering for everyone who's listening and watching because I think, I think we've approached it from the other way around today. I think, I think my personal feelings, not mine, but in general how we feel, my personal feelings have become more important than moving and supporting and serving and caring and getting to-

Michelle Obama 56:00 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 56:01 ... where we need to get to.

Michelle Obama 56:02 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 56:02 And that's because we've suppressed those feelings. That's why that has happened. It hasn't happened because people are mean or insensitive. It's happened because people feel they've been so unheard, going back to your point, and that's why we need to give space. We need to get, let this rise. How early did you start recognizing this for you in your own life? Like, where... Do you remember, like, the earliest before the White House, like, where you actually were like, "This worked. Like, this made sense, and I still felt good because I had my kitchen table." Is there anything that comes to mind?

Michelle Obama 56:34 Uh, do I go to childhood? I don't think I knew any of this-

Jay Shetty 56:36 Wherever

Michelle Obama 56:36 ... when I was little. But I think I, you know, I learned it on the campaign trail.

Jay Shetty 56:40 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 56:41 It, it was a product of one of the hardest moments that I had on the campaign trail, but one of the best growth moments, and I write about this in The Light, when I was accused of not loving my country-

Jay Shetty 56:56 Mm

Michelle Obama 56:56 ... because of some phrasing I said. I learned, first of all, that when you have a public forum, especially in this day and age, that it, and, and you're, like, competing, people will distort you-

Jay Shetty 57:11 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 57:12 ... whenever they can. And, and if they distort your words, your truth, even your personhood, which I felt like people attempted to do with me, with us, they tried to otherize us as the first Black people, accusing my husband of being a terrorist and not being born in this country, accusing me of being an angry Black woman, and, you know, the labels that can easily get put on others, the people that are othered, right, to make people afraid of us-

Jay Shetty 57:42 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 57:42 ... that that is a strategy that gets played again and again and again. It was being played on me-

Jay Shetty 57:50 Mm

Michelle Obama 57:50 ... and it got me to the point where I was almost ready to quit campaigning.

Jay Shetty 57:54 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 57:54 Right? But then I thought, "I have to be more strategic than they are-

Jay Shetty 57:58 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 57:58 ... about how I deliver my message."

Jay Shetty 58:00 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 58:01 I have to be authentic, but I also have to be careful so that I don't get mischaracterized. I have to be smarter than them. That doesn't mean I stop.

Jay Shetty 58:12 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 58:13 But I had to regroup for a minute there and really evaluate, how am I gonna regain control over my narrative-

Jay Shetty 58:20 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 58:22 ... and communicate in a broad way, right, that allows me to be heard, especially as a Black woman-

Jay Shetty 58:29 Yes

Michelle Obama 58:29 ... here, being critical or being authentic or passionate, right?

Jay Shetty 58:34 Mm.

Michelle Obama 58:35 That was a learning curve to me. I, I mean, I think my sentiments about the importance of communication were always there.

Jay Shetty 58:42 Yes.

Michelle Obama 58:43 My belief in how important it is that stories connect us-

Jay Shetty 58:48 Mm

Michelle Obama 58:48 ... that was there. I learned that in life. But learning how to do that on the public stage-

Jay Shetty 58:54 Mm

Michelle Obama 58:54 ... I, I learned the tricks and pitfalls of it in my first campaign.

Jay Shetty 59:00 Yes.

Michelle Obama 59:01 And those lessons stayed with me.

Jay Shetty 59:04 Yeah. That's... Thank you for that example. I... That example definitely connects. You reminded me of probably one of my favorite set of words from Martin Luther King where he said that, "People who love peace need to learn to organize themselves as well as those who love war." For those of l- us who love love and love peace and love compassion and empathy-

Michelle Obama 59:25 Yeah

Jay Shetty 59:25 ... if we're not organized about it, if we're not strategic about it, if we're not thoughtful about it-

Michelle Obama 59:30 That's right

Jay Shetty 59:31 ... it won't have the impact that we all crave for it to have. Um, Michelle, we... You've been so kind and generous with your time. We end every episode with a final five. Uh, these are the fast five which I always ruin because I'm too interested and curious.

Michelle Obama 59:45 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 59:46 Uh, they're usually answered in one word to one sentence maximum-

Michelle Obama 59:49 Oh, my God. All right

Jay Shetty 59:49 ... but I know I'm gonna, I'm gonna ruin it, so it's fine.

Michelle Obama 59:52 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 59:52 Uh, so the first question I have to ask you, Michelle, is what is the best advice you've ever had or received?

Michelle Obama 59:59 Heard a lot of it from my wise mom. "Come home. We like you here."

Jay Shetty 1:00:05 Mm.

Michelle Obama 1:00:06 To explain that, it was like my parents always taught me that the world won't always like you, but you can't count on the world to like you.

Jay Shetty 1:00:16 Mm.

Michelle Obama 1:00:17 You come home to be liked.

Jay Shetty 1:00:18 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 1:00:19 You go out there to get your education, to earn a living. You won't necessarily find people who will see you or love you or like you. You get that here.

Jay Shetty 1:00:30 Mm.

Michelle Obama 1:00:30 Right? And that's been a piece of advice that stuck with me.

Jay Shetty 1:00:33 Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. That's, that's so powerful. I know a lot of people who need to hear that right now. Uh, second question. What is the worst advice you've ever had or received?

Michelle Obama 1:00:42 I don't know. I don't, I don't know that the worst advice stays with me.

Jay Shetty 1:00:45 You let it go.

Michelle Obama 1:00:46 My brother... Uh, this isn't the worst, right? But it goes back to-

Jay Shetty 1:00:50 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:00:50 ... what we were saying earlier. You know, he's like, "When you get into the White House, you gotta be careful. No new friends."

Jay Shetty 1:00:56 Mm.

Michelle Obama 1:00:56 Right?

Jay Shetty 1:00:57 Mm-hmm.

Michelle Obama 1:00:57 That's not who he is-

Jay Shetty 1:00:58 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:00:58 ... but, you know, it was a short way-

Jay Shetty 1:01:00 Protective, yeah

Michelle Obama 1:01:00 ... of saying, "Be careful." I think staying open-

Jay Shetty 1:01:04 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:01:04 ... was more important in this phase in our lives than Being closed off

Jay Shetty 1:01:11 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:01:11 I'm, I'm glad we stayed open

Jay Shetty 1:01:13 Mm-hmm. I'm glad too. Uh, question number three, you said that the White House doesn't change you, it reveals more of who you are

Michelle Obama 1:01:21 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:01:21 What did it reveal to you about yourself?

Michelle Obama 1:01:23 That I'm pretty strategic and smart and resilient. The White House tests you in ways that you never anticipated

Jay Shetty 1:01:32 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:01:33 And the fact that we came out as a family, as individuals, the four of us, me and our two daughters, that was us

Jay Shetty 1:01:42 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:01:43 That was our values, our compassion, our, our smarts, our strategy that got us through. You know, I'm so proud of my husband and the way he led, the way his administration worked, the team that we built. So proud of everyone. I, I may have diverted from the question, but-

Jay Shetty 1:02:07 It's beautiful

Michelle Obama 1:02:08 Um-

Jay Shetty 1:02:08 Please continue

Michelle Obama 1:02:09 ... I think that's, that's because of who we are, and I know that now

Jay Shetty 1:02:16 Mm-hmm. I can, I can see it in your eyes and, and feel it from your words. Like, it's, it mu- it must be hard, like, knowing that, you know, it c- it can't always be that way in one sense. It's almost like great that you've been able to leave, but there's a f- there's that feeling also of like, "Oh, but that was great"

Michelle Obama 1:02:32 I mean, the bars are different for people in life. That I've learned

Jay Shetty 1:02:38 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:02:39 This is the thing about being an other

Jay Shetty 1:02:41 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:02:42 You learn how to be excellent all the time-

Jay Shetty 1:02:45 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:02:45 ... because you can't be less than

Jay Shetty 1:02:48 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:02:48 Other people can. Other people can be indicted a bunch of times and still run for, for office [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:02:55 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:02:55 Black man can't. You just learn to be good, and in the end, you benefit from that extra resilience

Jay Shetty 1:03:03 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:03:04 You know? You could be mad about it, but it also makes you more equipped

Jay Shetty 1:03:09 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:03:10 Right? But it's still not fair [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:03:12 Mm-hmm. Yeah, definitely. Uh, question number four, we've got two more left. Question number four, you've obviously already began living and will leave an incredible legacy for the work that you've done. If you could describe what that you'd want that legacy to read if someone was reading it or hearing it, what would it, what would it say?

Michelle Obama 1:03:35 That she helped more young people feel seen

Jay Shetty 1:03:42 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:03:42 'Cause I start with young people because with one word we can change a kid's life, we can lift them up, but that same wrong one word can crush them forever

Jay Shetty 1:03:58 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:03:59 And those are the building blocks of our humanity-

Jay Shetty 1:04:02 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:04:02 ... how we treat our kids, all of them

Jay Shetty 1:04:05 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:04:06 Right? And so I hope that my legacy is creating a stronger foundation for young people

Jay Shetty 1:04:15 Mm-hmm. Our fifth and final question, we ask this to every guest who's ever been on the show. More, more appropriate with guests like yourselves, but, uh, if you could create one law in the world that everyone had to follow, what would it be?

Michelle Obama 1:04:29 Everybody should have a h- a home to live in, food to eat, a job to go to, and education

Jay Shetty 1:04:37 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:04:38 Period. There would be the fundamental rights of everyone in the world

Jay Shetty 1:04:42 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:04:43 Now, there could be levels of that. You know, we would not live in a world where so few have so much and so many have nothing

Jay Shetty 1:04:51 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:04:51 And that law would create some kind of equity. We have this trickle-down approach, right?

Jay Shetty 1:04:58 Yeah

Michelle Obama 1:04:58 That's the basis of a capitalistic economy, right? But that's not happening

Jay Shetty 1:05:04 Yes

Michelle Obama 1:05:05 It's not trickling [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:05:07 Mm-hmm, mm

Michelle Obama 1:05:08 The law would w- it would require in whatever way, if we're not trickling voluntarily-

Jay Shetty 1:05:14 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:05:14 ... [laughs] then we need to be forced to trickle [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:05:17 [laughs] How do we create that law?

Michelle Obama 1:05:20 It really-

Jay Shetty 1:05:21 I'm, I'm in. How do we get that passed? Yeah

Michelle Obama 1:05:22 Mandatory trickling down

Jay Shetty 1:05:23 Yeah

Michelle Obama 1:05:23 Right

Jay Shetty 1:05:24 No, we so need that.

Michelle Obama 1:05:25 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 1:05:25 We so need that. What's blocking that? What's, what's stopping that?

Michelle Obama 1:05:28 Oh, I think fear

Jay Shetty 1:05:30 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:05:31 Yeah. I mean, I, I write about fear because I think fear is at the source of so much because I think the people who have a lot are afraid of not having enough

Jay Shetty 1:05:40 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:05:41 And it's not rational, right? But we fear the other, too, and so it's hard to give to people that you think you should be afraid of-

Jay Shetty 1:05:54 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:05:54 ... because you can't connect with them

Jay Shetty 1:05:57 Mm

Michelle Obama 1:05:57 We're all human

Jay Shetty 1:05:58 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:05:58 We're so alike. I don't care about skin color or how we pray or who, how we love. We're all the same

Jay Shetty 1:06:06 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:06:07 What keeps us from seeing that is fear, right? I don't know you.

Jay Shetty 1:06:12 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:06:12 You're different

Jay Shetty 1:06:13 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:06:13 So I gotta be afraid of you, and I can't. I, I have to make sure you don't come into my space. And then we live in a culture where people with power prey on fear to get more power

Jay Shetty 1:06:24 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:06:25 I'm gonna make you all afraid of each other

Jay Shetty 1:06:27 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:06:27 And then I can come in and rule it all

Jay Shetty 1:06:30 Mm-hmm

Michelle Obama 1:06:31 Right? I think fear is at the root of that

Jay Shetty 1:06:33 Michelle, I deeply appreciate, uh, your time, your energy, your presence, the eloquence, but also the, the deep energy you bring to conversations like these, and I'm definitely grateful for the light you carry, and I'm very deeply appreciative for you sharing it on On Purpose. And I hope w- this will be the first of many conversations together. So thank you again.

Michelle Obama 1:06:55 I've enjoyed it

Jay Shetty 1:06:55 Thank you so much

Michelle Obama 1:06:56 Thank you, Jay

Jay Shetty 1:06:56 Thank you

Michelle Obama 1:06:57 We'll talk again

Jay Shetty 1:06:58 Absolutely. Thank you. If you loved this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Daniel Amen on how to change your life by changing your brain.

Speaker 1:07:07 If we want a healthy mind, it actually starts with a healthy brain. You know, I've had the blessing or the curse to scan over 1,000 convicted felons and over 100 murderers, and their brains are very damaged