Rick Rubin Addresses Criticisms & OPENS UP About His Greatest Challenge in Life

Rick Rubin 0:00 How do you feel you have the number one album in the country? And I remember saying, "I've never been more unhappy in my life." Let's say you spend 20 years of your life working towards a goal that's gonna solve everything, and nothing changes. That's when you get hopeless.

Speaker 0:15 The best-selling author and host.

Rick Rubin 0:16 The number one health and wellness podcast.

Speaker 0:18 On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 0:22 Who have you created? Like, who are you? Like, at, at the core of it, how do you see yourself? I think we live in a world today where people create who we are to us in our own minds. Our families and friends create us. Our-- the media we consume creates us, and I think everyone will agree that we, we have so many influences, but who's the you you're trying to create or have tried to create over the last few decades?

Rick Rubin 0:48 I don't know if trying would be the word I would use. I would say, um, I'm true to whoever's inside there. I don't look at the outside very much. I look inward and try to focus on what do I feel, what am I seeing, in the hopes that by sharing what's going on in me, it maybe resonates with someone else. I can't predict what someone else would like.

Jay Shetty 1:14 Hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:15 And I don't think anybody can. So if I'm true, authentically true to myself, that's the best chance of someone else liking something.

Jay Shetty 1:24 Hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:25 So I would say tuning into myself and being honest with myself and anything I can do to get closer to understanding what I like and why I like it and what I don't like and why I don't like it is helpful in, in the work that I do.

Jay Shetty 1:42 Yeah, I, I love that idea of almost like a personal check-in or a sense check, and it's interesting, we do it after we eat food. Like, you know whether you liked a restaurant or you didn't like-

Rick Rubin 1:53 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 1:53 ... a restaurant or-

Rick Rubin 1:54 You-- it's, it's automatic with food.

Jay Shetty 1:55 It's automatic.

Rick Rubin 1:56 It's funny because I've been asked about, like, how can you be so confident in your opinion? It's like, if you taste food, how confident can you be if you like it or you don't like it?

Jay Shetty 2:04 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 2:04 It's so clear.

Jay Shetty 2:06 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:06 It's so face value.

Jay Shetty 2:07 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:08 And I, I think we tend to overthink and put layers on top of something as simple as, "Tastes really good. I like it."

Jay Shetty 2:16 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 2:16 Or, "You know what? This one's not for me."

Jay Shetty 2:18 Yeah, absolutely.

Rick Rubin 2:18 It's as simple as that.

Jay Shetty 2:20 Absolutely. And, and why do you think it is, though, that over the years we've all, as humans, from your perspective, your opinion, I'd be fascinated to know. You've worked with so many people who also make things that are fascinating to billions of people on the planet, right? There's-- We all experience what it feels like to get five, 10 people to laugh at a joke or listen to something we do, but when you're creating

Jay Shetty 2:42 at that scale, what, in your opinion, has made us so addicted to wanting to become someone that people like and often go against who we truly are? You just said you, you like to sense that authenticity and feel how you feel. A lot of people are scared of that. A lot of people would rather mold and become malleable and evolve and become who people want them to be. Why, why are we-- Why do you think that is?

Rick Rubin 3:08 People like to be accepted. People wanna be accepted. And I-I'm suggesting in the book that the, the best way to be accepted is to be yourself. It's not, it's not to change yourself to what someone else thinks. First of all, you don't really know what someone else thinks.

Jay Shetty 3:24 Mm.

Rick Rubin 3:25 And if you're not genuine to yourself, there's n- there's like nothing, nothing is there. It's just a projection or a mask. It's not true.

Jay Shetty 3:35 Mm.

Rick Rubin 3:35 And there's something about authenticity. Like, I get to work with artists, some of whom have very different ways of seeing the world than me, and I support their vision a million percent, even though whatever they're talking about may be-- I may be diametrically opposed to what they're talking about. But I support them a million percent, and anything I can do to su-support them getting their message across the clearest they can, I support that. The only way we can, um, learn anything is through the reality of seeing what's around us and learning there are these different points of view around us. If we're all thinking the same thing, it's boring. Why would we make anything if everyone thinks the same thing?

Jay Shetty 4:20 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 4:20 What makes us interesting are the differences.

Jay Shetty 4:23 Mm.

Rick Rubin 4:24 And even, even the imperfections. The imperfections are what makes us humans, what makes us what we are. It's like, um, there's so much talk today about ChatGPT and AI. It's like, it's a different thing than a human sharing their own experience-

Jay Shetty 4:42 Mm

Rick Rubin 4:43 ... warts and all.

Jay Shetty 4:44 Mm.

Rick Rubin 4:45 That's what we love.

Jay Shetty 4:46 Mm.

Rick Rubin 4:46 We love. You know, y-you may hear a song about, um, someone who's-- has terrible heartbreak, and you may not be experiencing terrible heartbreak, but hearing them honestly talk about a human experience, even one that we're not having, can make us cry, can make us resonate with them, can give us a better understanding of the world.

Jay Shetty 5:08 Mm. Absolutely, yeah.

Rick Rubin 5:09 And we're not all everything, you know? We're all only us. Each of us is ourselves.

Jay Shetty 5:15 Yeah. One thing when I was reading your book, it reminded me of something else I read a while ago, and what I read said that the Japanese say we have three faces. One face that we show the entire world. The second face is the face that we only show our family and friends. And the third face, they say, we show no one at all. Maybe not even ourselves sometime. We don't even... But what you're saying is almost like when we tap into that essence and become that self, that's where all this beauty and imagination and creativity stems from.

Rick Rubin 5:49 Yeah, it's the most in-- it's the-- seems to be the most interesting and the most particular. You know, um, i-in a sea of information, the more yours is personal, the more it's not like hers or his-

Jay Shetty 6:05 Mm

Rick Rubin 6:05 ... or theirs. It's, it's yours.

Jay Shetty 6:08 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 6:08 And for all of us, we get more of a, a sense of reality. Even if our views are different than everyone else's, it still helps us understand this is this place that we're in where there are these, there are these different views. It's interesting. When, when I speak to someone who has a different view on anything, I always wanna learn more.

Jay Shetty 6:30 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 6:30 How did you get there? What can I learn from you? You know? I never assume that I know anything.

Jay Shetty 6:36 Were you always like that, or were there experiences in your childhood that informed that? Because I feel like there are a lot of people, more generally speaking, and I don't like to stereotype, but just as an overall sense, a lot of the reasons why we struggle with doing what you just said is defending our viewpoint gives us a sense of safety and security, and we feel vulnerable if someone else's viewpoint that seems opposite to ours could be true. So that's one reason. The second is, we generally struggle as humans to entertain two opposing ideas. We, we struggle to understand the nuance that someone can be kind but also be assertive, or someone can be complex yet really compassionate. Like, there can be these paradoxes that exist. I was reading recently about how black-and-white TVs are not really black and white, they're shades of gray. There is no black-and-white pixel. It's really, really minute sheds of- shades of gray that are changing. So

Jay Shetty 7:38 were you always that way, always that curious? Did that start somewhere? Does that come from parent- Where, where did that come for you? I'm intrigued.

Rick Rubin 7:45 I would say I've always been open-minded. Early in my career, I probably had more of a view of I know how to do it, like I know my way, and my way was fine. But over the years I've realized that my way isn't necessarily the best way, it's just one way, and there are many other ways that are great. I was a vegan for 22 years, and now I'm mainly carnivore. It, it ... when you've really committed to a vegan lifestyle, it's very difficult to break out of it. And for about a year, I was a... I believed that eating meat was the healthiest thing I could do, but I couldn't do it because I was vegan. I was committed to being a vegan. So it's a perfect example, because it was something I was dedicated to for a long period of time. I had new information. It was hard to change. It was hard to break out of it. But as we get new information, we have to evolve. How can we, how can we live in an old belief? If you believe the same thing that you believed 20 years ago about everything, I, I don't know that you're living.

Jay Shetty 8:48 And so we've, we've gotta have that openness and the ability to question-

Rick Rubin 8:53 Cur- curiosity.

Jay Shetty 8:54 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 8:54 A curiosity about what's it like if, if my view is, my view of the world is wrong? What does someone else know? What can I learn from? Not to disregard what someone else thinks. Like, why do they think that? What... I know there's something I can learn from someone who sees it differently than me.

Jay Shetty 9:12 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 9:12 And I wanna understand it.

Jay Shetty 9:14 Yeah. And that's exactly why I asked you about your past, because I feel that I always try and study someone's past in order to understand how they came to a conclusion because, or even their behaviors, often the people that I feel act in ways that seem unreasonable or ways that I don't agree with, when I track back and look at their past, I can often be like, oh, there are the dots, and they, and they can probably see them too of why they've chosen that path. Not that that path is right or wrong. Um, it, it takes a lot to go beyond right and wrong because these constructs are so... And that's what I feel this book does. This book in itself breaks the construct of what a book is, right? [laughs] Like that, when I picked it up, I, I was assuming that I was gonna read a memoir or like stories and tales. I, I, I assumed that's what it would be in my belief system of what a book is by a prominent figure who's had a life such as yours. And then I open it up and I was like, wait a minute, [laughs] this is like, this is not what I was expecting. And I'm seeing like poetry and I'm seeing like rhymes and I'm seeing just short reflections and some really beautiful, even exercises and activities that you suggest. And I thought even in this book you're breaking down what someone sees as a book. I mean, the cover does it. It's stunning. And it's like that's something I would love to help people develop, because I think it's a skill, it's a habit. And you talk about habits in the book, and we're only as creative as the habits we keep, you

Jay Shetty 10:41 say. How do we develop that mindset? Is there a step-by-step system, or is it something that you just start tomorrow and you now are more curious when something conflicting comes your way?

Rick Rubin 10:51 It's something you get better at the more you practice.

Jay Shetty 10:53 Mm.

Rick Rubin 10:53 And meditation is a great tool to quiet ourselves enough to get in touch with how we see the world.

Jay Shetty 11:01 Mm.

Rick Rubin 11:02 The closer we can get to what we see, that's a starting position to be able to then understand how someone else sees it. And it's interesting to be able to l- learn to argue the points opposite what you believe. You know, if you don't understand all sides of, of the story, you don't really understand the story. So it's helpful to s- understand the whole picture and be- hold all of the beliefs softly enough to be surprised and learn something new and change everything.

Jay Shetty 11:38 You know, the book is called The Creative Act, and it is about being creative

Jay Shetty 11:43 more than even doing things that are creative. But have you ever sacrificed creativity for anything on any project or in any personal endeavor in life where creativity had to be sacrificed or you felt pushed to sacrifice, or where you felt it was being... where, where there was a bit of a part of you that was like, "I might have to let go"?

Rick Rubin 12:05 In the world of art, I feel fearless. I feel like whatever strikes me as this is what's interesting to me- I'm good with that. It doesn't extend as strongly into life. I know people who are completely fearless in life. I'm, I'm not there yet. I, it, it's very impressive. I love it. But within the confines of creativity and making things, I know, um, and only I know it through experience, I started only making things I liked. Luckily, people liked them, otherwise I'd have a different job. I would still be making things because it was always my passion. I never thought it would be my work. I, I always knew I would make things because that's what I loved to do. I thought I would have a regular straight job to support my habit of making things. And then miraculously, um, the universe allowed me to make things as a, as a full-time thing in life.

Jay Shetty 13:04 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 13:04 It's crazy.

Jay Shetty 13:05 Yeah. It's, it's amazing how we always talk about how, like, life imitates art or art imitates life, and

Jay Shetty 13:11 why has it been harder to translate from art to life that idea of fearlessness? What are the things that you find yourself fearing in life that, that you find so effortless here?

Rick Rubin 13:23 Th- there's a life and death commitment in art that's different than the life and death commitment in life. Jumping out of an airplane is different than, you know, telling a controversial joke. I c- I can remember recently, four or five years ago, I had open heart surgery, and I was really afraid, and I was with a, an artist friend who is a fearless artist and, and I told him, "Yeah, I'm going into this surgery. I'm really nervous." He's like, "Oh, you're gonna be fine. No, why are you even thinking about that?" Like, that's, that's a crazy thought because he's confident. He's fearless in life. Still, the n- the normal fears of life get me. But in art, I know the real power in it is going to the f- fringe edges of where you can go. That's what it-- The purpose of doing it is to see how far you can take it. So I feel, in a way, obligated to do that 'cause I know that's what's, that's what's most interesting to me. You know, there's so much middle of the road, and it doesn't interest me. I want it because it's louder, quieter, softer, harder. It's pushing some boundary. That's why I take notice. It's not more of the same. It's not just another. It's the one that makes you, it's like y- you stop and, "Did I really hear that? Did I really see that? What's going on here?" You know? W- when you see a movie where you have to lean forward and pay attention, like, what's happening? It's not just the audience's hand is being held and walk through a story simply. I like the, um, the complexity and difficulty that forces me, as the viewer, to participate in what's going on. I'm not just being, uh, carried along.

Jay Shetty 15:22 I'm intrigued, if you'd be happy to

Jay Shetty 15:24 go there, how do you use some of the creativity that you've found in art in order to navigate some of the fears in life? Is it helpful?

Rick Rubin 15:35 It is helpful. And, and one of the things is c- is realizing the attitude we bring to things changes it completely. So the same event could be terrifying, or we can decide it's okay, and it's the same exact event. It's just a, a mentality. I had an experience years ago. I grew up in a place where there are no, um, insects. Um-

Jay Shetty 15:58 Wow. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 15:58 Yeah. Where I grew up was, uh, just a very, uh, contained, protected environment. So I was a f- And my mom was afraid of insects, so I grew up with this feeling of insects as foreign and scary. And I was in Hawaii about seven years ago, and there are centipedes that can sting you. They don't kill you, but they're very painful. And I had alwa- And I'd been going to Kauai for a long time and, um, was aware of them and in the back of my mind afraid of them. And one night I woke up, my head was itchy. I brushed my head, and I felt something extremely painful, and I said to my wife, "I think I was just stung by a centipede, and I have one of two choices. I can panic, which is what my entire life has led me up to, or I can decide it's okay and go back to sleep." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 16:54 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 16:54 And she said, "The second one sounds better."

Jay Shetty 16:55 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 16:57 I'll do that.

Jay Shetty 16:58 Mm.

Rick Rubin 16:59 20 years ago, I don't know if I could've done that. 30 years ago, I don't-- I'm sure I couldn't have done that. Panic is what I've been trained for my whole life.

Jay Shetty 17:08 That's that conditioning where we're all, as you said, trained, conditioned, prepared for in a certain way.

Rick Rubin 17:15 Yeah. Even, even things that we don't know about.

Jay Shetty 17:17 Mm.

Rick Rubin 17:17 Like, we, we may be afraid... Did you know that people were not afraid of sharks before the movie Jaws?

Jay Shetty 17:23 No, I did not know that.

Rick Rubin 17:24 The, the reason everyone's afraid of sharks is because of the movie Jaws.

Jay Shetty 17:29 Wow. That, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.

Rick Rubin 17:32 Yeah. Changed the world.

Jay Shetty 17:32 That makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 17:33 Changed the world.

Jay Shetty 17:34 Yeah. And it, it's unbelievable how, yeah, what we seek or what we shun comes from a movie or a song or a visual demonstration of what- whatever it may be. And I find the- hence so many fears are not real, and as we're talking about fear only, so often exists mainly in the mind, and, and that's what we're talking about. It's a construct of the mind.

Jay Shetty 17:59 When we're talking about creativity, you address this fear head-on in the beginning because it is a fear. Everyone has somewhat of a fear, just as we say things like, "Oh, I can't sing," we say things like, "Oh, well, I'm not creative," or, "I'm not artistic," or, "I'm, I've never really been a creative. I'm more academic," or whatever it may be. We have these, again, constructs, right and wrong, academic, creative, mostly polar opposites. And You're actually saying, "No, no, no, this is something everyone can access and has access to and-

Rick Rubin 18:30 And do, and do access

Jay Shetty 18:31 ... and do, and do access

Rick Rubin 18:32 Yeah, we, we just don't all, all acknowledge it.

Jay Shetty 18:35 Mm.

Rick Rubin 18:36 But deciding to take a different route home because there's a traffic jam in front of you and figuring out the way to go, that's a creative decision. Cooking f- food and it tasting a certain way and you think, "Oh, maybe it'll taste better if I add this to it," that's a creative decision.

Jay Shetty 18:49 Mm.

Rick Rubin 18:50 We all do them. Every day we make creative choices.

Jay Shetty 18:54 Mm.

Rick Rubin 18:54 Any time we do something that's not exactly the same as the way we did it yesterday, the reason it's different is because we made a creative [laughs] choice.

Jay Shetty 19:03 [laughs] Yeah, absolutely. As simple as that.

Rick Rubin 19:06 As simple as that. Anything.

Jay Shetty 19:07 Just, just the detour in a car-

Rick Rubin 19:09 Anything

Jay Shetty 19:09 ... a little sprinkle of this or that.

Rick Rubin 19:10 Yes.

Jay Shetty 19:11 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 19:11 So we're all doing it, and th- the book is, uh, an invitation to open that channel as far and freely as you can.

Jay Shetty 19:24 It, it really does that. I, I really believe it does that. I, I... What I love about it is you can truly turn to any page. And I know they say this about a lot of books, and I, I don't think it's true for most books, to be honest, because if you pick a random book, a random page of a book, it- the context is completely out, whereas with this, there truly is that sense of if you're looking for that creativity, if you're trying to seek it within yourself, there's something that will inspire you.

Jay Shetty 19:49 What have you found over the years, working with artists, working with yourself, what have been the biggest blocks to creativity or to accessing that? What are the biggest blocks? Is it... I know, and, and I'll touch on a few that I'm intrigued by and curious about, but what would you say are the biggest blocks that people have to being truly creative and imaginative?

Rick Rubin 20:09 One big block is concerns about what other people think.

Jay Shetty 20:13 Mm.

Rick Rubin 20:13 That's a big one.

Jay Shetty 20:14 Mm.

Rick Rubin 20:15 I, I made this thing that I love, but I think other people would like it more if I made it different for them. We don't know what they would like. It's a, it's a really, it's all in our head. It comes back to this thing of what I think isn't good enough.

Jay Shetty 20:32 Mm.

Rick Rubin 20:33 You know, if I like it, that doesn't mean anything. That's what people think. It's like, just because I like it, that doesn't give it any value. It's like, as an artist, if you like it, that's all of the value. That's the success comes when you say, "I like this enough for other people to see it," not other people like it, so it's successful. That doesn't mean anything because that's... Other people liking it is out of your control. All that's in your control is making the thing to the best of your ability. I talk about it, usually the way I talk about it is greatness, and that's the way I thought of it my whole life was my interest is in making something great, greatness, lasting greatness, timeless, and I came to realize recently it's all an offering to God. And if you're making an offering to God, you're not thinking about, oh, what's the budget? Or I hope, I hope these, this segment of the audience is gonna like it. We don't, we don't think like that. It's a higher vibration. We're making the best we can make to the best of our ability out of love and devotion. That's what it is.

Jay Shetty 21:38 Mm.

Rick Rubin 21:39 And there is no I'm changing it for someone else because it can't be better than this devotional act that we're doing. There is no higher, no higher form.

Jay Shetty 21:51 Yeah, and that's what you see so much in, in nature around us. I've always found, like, the sun is just selflessly serving and giving, and you see a bush of flowers or you see a tree that's growing fruits, and again, it's providing shade and fruit, and it's just serving. And it's interesting how when you call it a devotional act, the idea that it's, it's a service. It's an offering, as you said in-

Rick Rubin 22:15 Absolutely

Jay Shetty 22:15 ... in that language.

Rick Rubin 22:16 And even an offensive song is that to someone. To someone, it's like, um, I worked with the band Slayer, and Slayer were a very controversial, aggressive band, and the people who came to see them didn't come to see them in ha- filled with hate. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 22:34 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 22:34 They came to, they came to see them filled with love, and for many of the people in the audience, maybe the only experience of love they had was connecting over Slayer. You know, there, there were, there were people in the audience who seemed like other than this thing to devote themselves passionately to seemed like often hopeless people, and for them to have something that they loved was beautiful to witness.

Jay Shetty 23:03 And that, that sounds like one, I think you're spot on, that, that fear of what will people think, what will people say, art versus audience almost. And I feel that that has become such a big challenge in today's world because there's so much-

Rick Rubin 23:18 Social media

Jay Shetty 23:18 ... data available, social media available, and you get instant feedback, right? So I think in the past, a band would lock themselves in a shed or whatever it may be and then work on stuff, and maybe their friends would listen or they would listen and, but it would take months before the audience heard it. Today, you could literally record something in three seconds, put it up, and get instant feedback. And so the feedback loop has got shorter. The time to create something has got shorter. It's easier to publish, and it's easier to get criticism or feedback. And so in that world, I find us looking so much at, like, well, what's the data saying of the trends, of the pace of music or the frequency of music or whatever, and that's obviously only music, but you could apply that to anything else.

Jay Shetty 24:05 Do, do you think that that obsession in social media, music, movies of looking at it from a data-- Even in movies now, I find, like, we're just taking old IP and remaking stuff. There's, there's very little new IP. You just keep seeing old IP finding its way back into TV and movies. Do you say that that's creativity being stifled and, and is hampering creativity?

Rick Rubin 24:26 Absolutely. A- and the beauty of it is because so much of what's being made is being made that way, that if We choose to make something not like that, it really stands out.

Jay Shetty 24:38 Mm.

Rick Rubin 24:39 This book, for example, it goes against all of the rules of publishing. From the beginning, I, I started the book eight years ago, and I met with publishers eight years ago, told them, "This is my vision for this book." And all of them said, "That's not the book anybody wants from you. That's not the book." And I said, "Well, it's, that's the book I wanna write."

Jay Shetty 24:59 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 24:59 And like, "Well, but surely you'll tell personal stories, and you'll talk about Johnny Cash, and you'll talk about..." It's like, "No, that's not what this is." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 25:06 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 25:07 "It's a different book."

Jay Shetty 25:08 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 25:08 And then I decided not to make a publishing deal then because even the ones who said they would go along with what my vision was, I could see that they really were fantasizing a different book than this book.

Jay Shetty 25:20 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 25:20 I waited till the book was written and then said, "Do you wanna publish this book? Not the book you think is the book that you want me to write-

Jay Shetty 25:29 Yeah

Rick Rubin 25:29 ... but this is the book that I, that I wrote, that I wanted to write and wrote. Do you wanna publish this book?"

Jay Shetty 25:36 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 25:36 And then when they read it, they're like, "Oh, yes."

Jay Shetty 25:37 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 25:38 "We'll publish this."

Jay Shetty 25:39 That's brilliant. The reason I'm laughing so much is because I, with my first book, I had, I had thought of the title when I was writing it because it resonated with me because it was playful but also curious and, and it, and it felt true to me was the biggest reason why I'd chosen the title. It just, it felt like it was truth. And so the title I'd- I was proposing for my first book was Think Like a Monk. And I'd lived as a monk for three years. I'd studied under these incredible monks, and I wanted to share what I'd learned from these masters who'd spent 40, 50 years living as monks. And so the book was almost an offering to them in-

Rick Rubin 26:18 Yes

Jay Shetty 26:18 ... in a way you're saying and a devotional act back to my teachers and-

Rick Rubin 26:21 Yes

Jay Shetty 26:22 ... guides. And every publisher was like, "Jay, you should just write a book about, like, how to find your passion or, like, you know, like, what you love in life." And I was just like, "That's-- there's beauty in that."

Rick Rubin 26:33 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 26:33 "There's nothing wrong with a book about how to find your passion. That's great, but that's not me. Like, it's not my experience. It's not my book." And I remember 15 out-- 14 out of 17 imprints said no to that title.

Rick Rubin 26:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 26:46 And we still went with it.

Rick Rubin 26:47 Yes.

Jay Shetty 26:47 And I couldn't be more happier because of that. But you're right. You can't control what the audience wants, even if you played every perfect metric and game.

Rick Rubin 26:57 No.

Jay Shetty 26:58 But we think we can. We, we think there's a part of us, and that's what I was gonna ask you, that almost one end is saying, "I am too worried about what people think," but the opposite almost is the ego of, "I can either control everything perfectly so that this becomes the number one chart-topping song," or, "I'm right, and I know everything."

Jay Shetty 27:19 W- is that-- do you see that as a block to creativity, and how and-

Rick Rubin 27:22 Yeah

Jay Shetty 27:22 ... and how do you purify that?

Rick Rubin 27:23 I, I, I think, I think the, the goal is to get to this, "This is how I see it. I don't know what other people are gonna think. I can't know what other people are gonna think, but this is how I see it, and I wanna show you how I see it. That's my purpose here on the planet is to show you how I see it. And then I wanna see how you see it and where do they line up and where are they different." And that's how we make sense of the world. It's not one story.

Jay Shetty 27:52 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 27:52 We all have a story.

Jay Shetty 27:53 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 27:53 We all have something to say, and we can all learn from each other, and it's, it's fascinating. It's like there's-- there are the same set of chords used in all the songs, yet new songs keep coming. You know, there's s- someone who say all the songs have been written. They're, y- they've ... It keeps happening. It-- how do, how do new jokes come up?

Jay Shetty 28:14 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 28:14 They're all-- it's like they're all the same.

Jay Shetty 28:16 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 28:17 But then they're all different.

Jay Shetty 28:18 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 28:18 And how, how we interpret it and are each... And it comes from each of our life experiences, which are different. We, we each have our own family origin story. We each have our own places that we grew up, the things that we saw. We could go, uh, and do the same thing together and then get back and discuss what we saw and see two completely different things.

Jay Shetty 28:39 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 28:39 And it's not like one of us is right and one of us is wrong. We're just noticing different things. There's so many data points to take in, and we each take in the ones that speak to us.

Jay Shetty 28:51 Mm. So true. Yeah. You, you reminded me of the famous words of Mark Twain of, "History never repeats itself, but it always rhymes."

Rick Rubin 28:58 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 28:59 And that, right, the, the idea of, like, yeah, like, the same song doesn't come back, but there's a rhyme, there's a, there's the chord, there's the... But, but it's still different and, and there's some beautiful-- I wanna point out to everyone because I, I d- really do want you to get this book, everyone who's listening and watching right now. Uh, and there's-- I've, I've, like, dog-eared some pages-

Rick Rubin 29:17 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:17 ... that, that have some really beautiful moments. I really like this because one thing I really aim to do here on, on the podcast but also in life is to try and give people really practical tiny steps that they could take, and you, you do that artfully in this book. And there was this section here, uh, which identifies why I brought it up now 'cause exactly what you said, breaking the sameness, right? And, and we think there's the sameness or completeness, and you give these beautiful examples of things people can do in order to do that, and I just wanna touch on a couple of them.

Rick Rubin 29:49 Please.

Jay Shetty 29:50 I would love to hear some examples from you that where it worked. So I really like this one, change the context. So you say, "There are times when a singer doesn't connect with a song like an actor whose line reading falls flat. It can be helpful to create a new meaning or an additional backstory to a song's lyrics. A love song might sound different if sung to a long-lost soulmate, a partner of 30 years that you don't get along with, a person you saw on the street but never spoke to, or

Jay Shetty 30:19 your mother." Have you-- I, I was intrigued. Have you ever asked an artist to sing to someone real in their life potentially to get an emotion out?

Rick Rubin 30:29 Yes. There's, uh, the first example that comes to mind is we were doing a cover of the song The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face with Johnny Cash, and he- Read the lyrics, and he said, "I don't know if I could sing this song. I don't really feel these words." And I said, "Well, how about if it's a devotional song to God?" He's like, "I could sing that song." And when he changed it to being not singing it to a woman but singing it to God, he was able to tap into the energy of the song, and he felt the vibration. He felt, he, he felt the trueness to him in singing it.

Jay Shetty 31:11 Wow. Yeah. And so he-- But everyone still thought the song was about a woman.

Rick Rubin 31:17 It is.

Jay Shetty 31:17 Yeah. Yeah, it is.

Rick Rubin 31:17 And the song is about a woman.

Jay Shetty 31:18 The song is.

Rick Rubin 31:19 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 31:19 Right, right, right, right, right.

Rick Rubin 31:20 Yeah, but there's-

Jay Shetty 31:20 Yeah

Rick Rubin 31:20 ... there's a long history of songs that are love songs that could be to a woman or could be devotional.

Jay Shetty 31:28 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 31:28 It's interesting when songs walk this line or when we think we know what a song's about-

Jay Shetty 31:33 Yeah

Rick Rubin 31:33 ... and we think it's about a ro- romantic relationship when it's really about their child.

Jay Shetty 31:39 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 31:39 You know, the, these devotional songs.

Jay Shetty 31:41 So, and I'm sharing this with all of you who are listening and watching because I know you're-- I know where you're sitting there thinking, "Jay, I procrastinate, I overthink, I don't know how to focus," which we'll get into all of that. But I wanna share these with you because I want you to try them out in your own area and the worl- the work you do. So change the environment. If we're looking for a performance of a different nature, it can help to change an element of the environment. Turning off the lights and playing in the dark can create a shift in consciousness and break the chain of sameness from performance to performance. Other shifts we've experimented with include having a singer hold the microphone instead of standing in front of it and recording early in the morning instead of at night. To access a greater degree of variation, one vocalist chose to hang upside down while singing. Could you tell us some examples of

Jay Shetty 32:29 those? Because I find that, a- again, these are just... They're so simple, but we don't do it. We will sit at the same desk every day, banging our head against the wall with the same tabs open on Google, going, "Why can't I be creative?"

Rick Rubin 32:43 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:43 And it's often these physical, tangible changes around us.

Rick Rubin 32:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:47 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 32:48 And so it happened in the studio. It's not uncommon if we've played a song three or four or five or six times, and it just feels like it's not getting better, or we've reached a certain peak, and it's really not all it could be, but then it starts not being as good. Usually, when that happens, as soon as you reach whatever peak you're at, and it starts coming down, we usually stop playing the song.

Jay Shetty 33:10 Hmm.

Rick Rubin 33:10 Um, but one thing we've done in the past also would be, again, changing the context, turning the lights off in the studio, is it changes everything.

Jay Shetty 33:20 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 33:20 It's not take seven.

Jay Shetty 33:22 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 33:22 It's the first take in the dark, and it changes. It changes. The first album I recorded with the Red Hot Chili Peppers was their, I think it was their fifth album, and the albums that they had done before, they had all done in traditional recording studios. And them- they told me that none of those were good experiences. So we thought about what could we do for this experience to make it the first different one instead of the fifth if the first four were bad. Could've been the first good one in, in the same environment, or we could change the environment, and it would be the first of any kind. So we chose to rent this big house not far from here and record in this mansion, and that was very different than showing up to a recording studio with people working in an office and other musicians in other, other places. We had our whole own world that we created, and, and some of the members of the band didn't leave during the entire, I- I don't know, six weeks or two months. They never left the premises. They just stayed there, slept there, ate there, worked there, and, um, never left until it was done.

Jay Shetty 34:33 Wow. Yeah, I love that one. Uh,

Jay Shetty 34:36 invite an audience. This one makes sense, but, but I think people need to do it more. When an artist thrives on being in front of a crowd, we may bring in several people to watch a session. Being observed changes how an artist acts. Even if the audience consists only of on one person who isn't part of the project, that can be enough. While some artists may overdo a performance for an audience and others may hold back, most tend to be more focused with someone else present. Even if your art is non-performative, such as writing or cooking, it will still likely change with an observer present. The goal is to find the specific parameters in each case that bring out your best. I, I love the idea. I had a few friends a few years ago. One of their buddies wanted to become a stand-up comic, but he had no experience in stand-up comedy. So they threw him a stand-up show in their backyard, and there were, like, 15 of us present in the audience. He got announced onto stage in front of an audience that wasn't gonna heckle or be the meanest to him, and he got to practice. And it was, it was just such a beautiful way, A, to do that for your friends, but to experience that. And I'm, I'm on tour at the moment. This is my break period. But for my test, we were practicing rehearsing in a small theater in Thousand Oaks. And so what Thou- the theater said to us is they could throw it out to their local audience members who would have no clue who I was or what I was doing, and they'd come along. Little did I know that we'd have, like, 50 to 100 people that weekend watching the show just as a rehearsal.

Rick Rubin 36:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:10 And it was so useful to me before I went out.

Rick Rubin 36:12 Absolutely.

Jay Shetty 36:12 And it was huge, like-

Rick Rubin 36:13 Absolutely

Jay Shetty 36:14 ... huge. So I love that one.

Rick Rubin 36:15 I was listening to a story. On the way here, I was listening to a podcast in the car, and it told a story about The Beatles, um, that when The Beatles were interviewed individually, they were all these thoughtful, interesting, soulful people.

Jay Shetty 36:30 Wow.

Rick Rubin 36:31 But when they were interviewed even two together, they became sarcastic and d- never said much about, about anything real And was much more of a performative, cool, like to look cool in front of the other one.

Jay Shetty 36:49 Wow.

Rick Rubin 36:50 That just be- being with each other changed the way that they appeared in the world.

Jay Shetty 36:56 Mm. Wow. Yeah, that, that group aspect is so interesting. You- you've just sparked another thought for me that I, I think it would be really interesting to, for people to hear. You going back to this, it's interesting again, them being on their own allowed them to be more of their authentic, deeper self to some degree, I guess.

Rick Rubin 37:17 Yes.

Jay Shetty 37:17 I think it was in Bob Iger's book where he talked about how he was saying that George Lucas, Spielberg, Tarantino, and, and a bunch of others used to almost have a movie mastermind where they'd play their movies to each other before they went out. And he was saying that that's how confident they felt about their own work, because they were showing their competitors their movies.

Rick Rubin 37:44 Yes.

Jay Shetty 37:45 But they weren't scared of anyone stealing an idea-

Rick Rubin 37:47 No

Jay Shetty 37:47 ... or taking a concept because they were so confident in who they were, and all their friends were so confident in their styles. And we know that a Tarantino movie versus a Spielberg movie has no similarities.

Rick Rubin 37:58 Yes. And in some ways, that community, we talk about that in the book, too.

Jay Shetty 38:02 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 38:02 Having a community of, it, it doesn't have to be people who do the same kind of art as you, but people who just taste you, you respect, you like what they do, they like what you do, and being able to share your work back and forth is a really great feeling.

Jay Shetty 38:19 Yeah. How have you-- That's, that's a

Jay Shetty 38:21 really nice segue. How has that, how has that affected how you've learned to filter criticism and feedback? Because again, going back to the world we live in today, because of that instant feedback loop, you can have 100 comments that are negative on social media. Your song didn't make it. It's not as big as the next album. You have the top 10 chart, you didn't make it. I think the way everything's measured and broadcasted now can make criticism and feedback in one sense seem louder. Before you went into a room and someone told you you weren't getting a new deal, and no one knew. Today, you didn't get a new deal, and the whole world knows, and your fans know, and the opposing fans know. It's messy. It's like, how have you worked on that for yourself and the work you've done, and even the artists that you work with, who I'm guessing may be more sensitive to it, may not have that natural confidence or groundedness in what it is. How do you, how, how-- And even people who are listening today, how do we think about feedback and criticism?

Rick Rubin 39:22 Most of the artists I work with don't read any, any criticism or reviews of their work, good or bad.

Jay Shetty 39:28 Mm.

Rick Rubin 39:28 Most. Some, some do, and I would say the ones who are the strongest in who they are can even read a terrible review and laugh at it. And that makes sense because when someone gives you criticism, it's telling you as much about who they are as what you've made. It's like we make things, and then we make it with one-- through our filter, our perspective. And then you receive it through your filter with your perspective.

Jay Shetty 40:01 Mm.

Rick Rubin 40:02 So even if we both like it, we probably don't like it the same way for the same reasons. We all have our own relationship to it. Everyone has their own relationship to it. So any of these metrics of which is better, like the idea of the Oscars or, uh, the Grammys, where we're saying which, which album is better than another, it doesn't make any sense to me because it's always apples and oranges. If you have a Drake and Beyoncé, and you're deciding which album's better. Well, Drake's album is clearly a better Drake album than Beyoncé's album is.

Jay Shetty 40:36 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 40:37 And Beyoncé's album, I'm sure, is a much better Beyoncé album out than Drake's album is. But the idea that one's better than the other-

Jay Shetty 40:44 Mm

Rick Rubin 40:44 ... it makes no sense. Who has a better diary entry?

Jay Shetty 40:47 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 40:48 It's like it's, it's-- If we are actually making these personal things-

Jay Shetty 40:55 Mm

Rick Rubin 40:55 ... you, you can't compare them or, um, compete in any way with anyone else. The only people who we can honestly compete with is ourselves. It's like, is this the best I can make today? Have I gone further than I've gone before? That's all we can do. That's the only competition that makes sense, is continuing to evolve and push ourselves artistically and not get complacent, especially in success. It's easy to get complacent once something works. It's like, I'll just keep doing more of that. It ends up maybe one more time you can get away with it, but once three are similar, it stops being interesting.

Jay Shetty 41:35 Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And it, and it come, that comes back to that sameness point that we always-- And, and I'm just addressing things that I know all of you are thinking and feeling right now, like, or I'm assuming you are. The idea of, oh, Jay, there's already... You know, when I started making podcasts, I think there were like 700,000 podcasts in the world, and today there's like two million plus, maybe even more now. And that's in three years, it's tripled. Since I started four years ago, it's tripled. And so when I started, everyone's like, "Jay, there's 700 podcasts."

Rick Rubin 42:07 Too late.

Jay Shetty 42:07 "You don't n- you don't need another podcast." Too late.

Rick Rubin 42:10 You're too late.

Jay Shetty 42:10 Too late. Exactly. You're too late. Uh, and then now everyone's like, "Oh my God, there's two million podcasts." Like, "It's too late." And we do that. We, we start again using a metric to say-- And you'll only feel that way if you're planning to repeat what's already been done. Uh, because if, if you're not planning to repeat it, then you're one of one. You're not one of two million or one of 700,000. It's one of one because the, you're only bringing your own essence out, right? Like-

Rick Rubin 42:36 Yes

Jay Shetty 42:37 ... just because every other podcast, you could be like, "There's so many interview podcasts." There are so many interview podcasts, that's true.

Rick Rubin 42:43 And they're all different.

Jay Shetty 42:44 And they're all different.

Rick Rubin 42:45 Yes.

Jay Shetty 42:45 Exactly. Like, you know, and we, we got introduced through Um, your long-term friend and our, my new mutual friend, Andrew Huberman, who's also been a guest on this podcast, he has a phenomenal podcast. I love his podcast. Um, but so different to who I am-

Rick Rubin 42:58 So different

Jay Shetty 42:58 ... so different to what we do, and, and, and then there's a million other friends that we have that have shows. So the most common thing I hear when it comes to creativity or it comes to tapping into your essence is distraction, overthinking, and procrastination. Like, those words come up from my community again and again and again. And that's the kind of community listening I do like to do, where I'm like, "Well, what are people struggling with?"

Rick Rubin 43:22 Yes.

Jay Shetty 43:22 Because we're trying to help.

Rick Rubin 43:23 Yes.

Jay Shetty 43:23 What are people's challenges? I, I have to know from them what they think it is, and then I'll also share in the way I do.

Jay Shetty 43:30 Have you or anyone you've ever worked with ever dealt with big bouts of procrastination-

Rick Rubin 43:35 Oh, absolutely

Jay Shetty 43:35 ... overthinking? Yeah, and-

Rick Rubin 43:36 Oh, absolutely. Every time

Jay Shetty 43:37 ... and how do you define it? Because I almost think that-

Rick Rubin 43:38 Well, I would say there's two. The distraction and procrastination are related and different.

Jay Shetty 43:44 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 43:44 Procrastination is not a good one. Distraction can be. Distraction can be helpful. You can use distraction if you hold a question to be solved and don't sit and think and try to solve it, but go do something else, and go, you know, take a walk or go for a swim. You'll find that it changes. It changes. And the distraction of when you go for a walk and seeing, oh, look at that tree over there, look at those birds, or whoa, that car came kind of close to me. All of those things that, that living in the world, even though it's not, um, challenging in any real way, it's a distraction that's using some part of your brain. Some part of your brain is occupied with, do I turn left or do I turn right? Oh, look at that thing over there. Oh, is it gonna rain? These other things are happening. That's different than just sitting in a room looking at your laptop. Just those outside cues can give you a way in to solve a problem that you wouldn't solve if you were sitting and working on it. For example, if we were now doing this podcast together on a walk, it would be a very different podcast-

Jay Shetty 44:58 Yeah

Rick Rubin 44:58 ... than us sitting here staring into each other's eyes.

Jay Shetty 45:01 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 45:02 And it's a beautiful idea. I've ha- I've had... There was a period of time where, um, where I lost a whole bunch of weight, and one of the things that I did as part of that was I only did walking meetings. Before, I used to only do lunch meetings. So I switched the lunch meetings to walking meetings, and I would meet people in Santa Monica, and we would walk, and the meetings were so much better than the meetings either in a restaurant or at, uh, in an office. Everything shifted just because we were moving, we were doing something. There were external stimuli. Even though the external stimuli had nothing to do with what we were doing-

Jay Shetty 45:40 Yeah

Rick Rubin 45:41 ... it, it changed. It was a change in context that really did, um, make the conversation much more interesting, and there's also something about when you're walking, you're not looking at each other, so it's easier to go into your own thoughts when you're not looking at someone.

Jay Shetty 46:02 Mm.

Rick Rubin 46:03 So it was very interesting, a great experiment. Lost a lot of weight-

Jay Shetty 46:06 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 46:06 ... and, and the meetings were the best they've ever been.

Jay Shetty 46:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of work in couples psychology that suggests that when couples argue, they're usually sitting on opposite sides of a dining table. And when you're sitting with something in between you, first of all-

Rick Rubin 46:21 Uh-huh

Jay Shetty 46:22 ... I mean, here we don't have anything, but you have something in between you, it's already creating a distance.

Rick Rubin 46:26 Yes.

Jay Shetty 46:26 And now you're working against each other-

Rick Rubin 46:29 Yes

Jay Shetty 46:29 ... rather than what you're saying is you're walking with each other-

Rick Rubin 46:32 Yes

Jay Shetty 46:32 ... and you're looking off into the same direction, so you're almost creating a future. Uh, the idea that you're forward... You're, you're future-forward, you're future-facing.

Rick Rubin 46:42 Yeah. It's funny. My, my wife and I, whenever we get to a new table and we're sitting to, to eat, we always say, we look at where the chairs are, and one of us will say, "Cheek to cheek?"

Jay Shetty 46:53 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 46:53 And we al- and we tend to sit next to each other instead of across from each other.

Jay Shetty 46:56 There you go.

Rick Rubin 46:57 Cheek to cheek.

Jay Shetty 46:58 Yeah, cheek to cheek. I love that. And, and that makes so much sense with leadership meetings, creative meetings, and, and I, I love that... I love, love, love, and this is why this book is so beautiful, 'cause it has so many really subtle points, and the idea of the difference between distraction and procrastination-

Rick Rubin 47:16 Yes

Jay Shetty 47:17 ... and how distraction can actually be healthy, and especially, as you said, when you hold a question or you, you hold an idea and you're just kind of toying with it, but you might pick up a book, you might go for a walk, you might whatever. You can do all these things, but it's almost like you're using that time wisely to, to come back, and-

Rick Rubin 47:35 Absolutely. Going for a drive is a great one.

Jay Shetty 47:37 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 47:38 Just the, just paying attention to not crashing, even though we can drive essentially on autopilot-

Jay Shetty 47:46 Yeah

Rick Rubin 47:47 ... we're not thinking about driving o- once we've been driving for a while.

Jay Shetty 47:50 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 47:51 But just driving, ideas come. I know many musicians, uh, singers who will listen to the instrumental music in a ca- in the car and then sing along when they're driving-

Jay Shetty 48:02 Yeah

Rick Rubin 48:02 ... because they're more free-

Jay Shetty 48:03 Yes

Rick Rubin 48:03 ... than when they're sitting with a recorder.

Jay Shetty 48:05 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That makes perfect sense. Yeah, no, and it's, it's so interesting how we have so many... We've also built up, again, going back to our conditioned beliefs, we've built up a negative relationship with the word distraction. We've built up a negative connotation around, "If I don't solve it right now sitting in this one place, then I'm never gonna figure it out."

Rick Rubin 48:27 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 48:27 And the idea that actually going on a walk, picking up something else, that's, that's one of the reasons why I like having in my office, here in the studio, back in my home, everything's quite minimalist, but I have a lot of, like, little artifacts and little things and because I enjoy the kind of, like, stimulation and the creative juices that start flowing if I get a moment to just observe. And then sometimes I just want to observe nature outside, where I can just sit and bask and almost bathe in nature, which I find to be so useful because- There was this incredible study from MIT a few years ago where they tried to look for who were their most creative, innovative employees inside the organi- inside corporate organizations, and MIT was doing this study. They found two sets of charts of types of employees, employee A and employee B. Employee A knew lots of people that knew each other, and employee B knew lots of people that didn't know each other. And they were looking at which one's more creative, innovative, and hence more imaginative inside a company. And they found it was employee B, because employee A knew people who knew people who knew them back, and it got-

Rick Rubin 49:37 Small circle, closed circle

Jay Shetty 49:38 ... small closed circles that created these echo chambers, and you ask the same 10 people for advice. And employee B knew lots of random people who had no connection to each other. And the point was being made that if your circle, and that I think applies to environment as much as it applies to people-

Rick Rubin 49:57 Absolutely. Absolutely

Jay Shetty 49:57 ... is more random and disconnected, you have more chance of having a original, authentic thought, idea, spark, as opposed to you're surrounded by the four same people and you talk about the same things.

Rick Rubin 50:11 Absolutely.

Jay Shetty 50:12 And, and that to me has always been how, what I'm trying to do. It's like I wanna know what the monks think, and I wanna know what Silicon Valley thinks, and I wanna know what-

Rick Rubin 50:20 Yes

Jay Shetty 50:20 ... music geniuses think-

Rick Rubin 50:22 Yes

Jay Shetty 50:22 ... because that's, there's something there.

Rick Rubin 50:24 Absolutely.

Jay Shetty 50:25 A word you use in this book that I wanna touch on, uh, and that's why this came up for me, was submerge, and I loved it. When I saw that word, I was just like, yes. Like, I love that. I, I've thought about that for so long, submerging yourself. We've, we've lost that ability to submerge. We don't submerge ourselves much because we have so much of a little. How have you in this hyper-connected world, working with the most connected artists in the world, how have you encouraged yourself and others to continue to submerge when everyone's asking us to swim shallow?

Rick Rubin 50:56 I think so many of the great artists do it naturally. Can't, you can't help it. It's the obsessive nature of being really into something that, um, once you start down a, a thread, you just keep pulling forever, if you're interested. Many of the artists that, that, that are great at what they do are great at what they do for that very reason. They fall in love with this thing, and then they just wanna know everything they could possibly learn about it. Um, and there are no distractions. I'm working on a project now, a, a documentary project with comedians, and one of the things that they talk about is their commitment. Like, when other people are doing things on the weekend, going out with their friends, they're going to perform every, you know-

Jay Shetty 51:44 Mm

Rick Rubin 51:44 ... every night that they can possibly go out and perform until they can get good at their craft, and this could be for a period of, you know, 10 years-

Jay Shetty 51:51 Mm-hmm

Rick Rubin 51:51 ... of just having bad performances, you know, having people not like what you do. Like banging your head against the wall. But that obsession with breaking through, and when I say breaking through, I don't mean breaking through to the audience. I mean breaking through with themselves-

Jay Shetty 52:08 Mm

Rick Rubin 52:08 ... to where they get past all of the, uh, blocks, and to be free in this moment in a way where they can really express their views and be heard, and people can react. Uh, it's ve- it's a, it's a fascinating thing.

Jay Shetty 52:28 Mm. That br-

Rick Rubin 52:29 The-

Jay Shetty 52:29 Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Rick Rubin 52:29 I, I just wanna ask about being, uh, being a monk.

Jay Shetty 52:31 Please.

Rick Rubin 52:32 What, tell me about your experience.

Jay Shetty 52:33 Uh, what would you like to know?

Rick Rubin 52:35 Um, how did you choose to do this, first?

Jay Shetty 52:37 I was born and raised in London, and when I was around 18 years old, I started going to events in the city where speakers were invited to come and share their stories or journeys or successes or whatever it may have been, and this is obviously before podcasting and before YouTube. And so you actually went to events to hear people like yourself or anyone speak. And so I would go and listen, and there'd be founders of companies, there'd be athletes, there'd be, you know, musicians, people like that that would come to universities and colleges in, in London. And so I'd go, and one of the nights I went, I was invited to hear a monk speak, and I was 18 years old, and my, I didn't really have a perception of monks. Like, I didn't really have any... I'd, I'd seen saintly people and holy people, uh, coming from an Indian background, but I never really knew what monks were or what they did. And so I said to my friends, I didn't really wanna go, but I said I'd only go if we went to a bar afterwards. That was my, that was my state of consciousness, age 18. And my friends were very persuasive and convincing. They said, "Yeah, yeah, we'll go." And so I went to this event kind of like not expecting anything, wanting to leave, and I was just completely, like, floored. This monk was from India. He was born and raised in India. He had a thick Indian accent. He was wearing, uh, saffron robes, and there was nothing externally that I should or should have found a- attractive about him as an 18-year-old guy. But his whole message, and it's, that's why I smiled when you said it earlier, like, his whole message was that the greatest thing you can do in the world, or greatness, is to use your gifts in the service of God and use your gifts in the service of humanity as a devotional act, and he was talking about how living in devotion. And my 18-year-old self was just completely, like, mesmerized by that idea. I was just like, "I've never heard this." Like, everyone's been telling us how to be successful and how to start a business and how to launch a company and how to become number one or, and it was like this, this guy was just saying that that wasn't it. And so I went up to him, as you do after an event when you're blown away by a speaker, and I just said to him, I was like, "I just wanna follow you around."

Rick Rubin 54:50 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 54:50 Like, "I just wanna spend time with you and learn from you and sit at your, you know, sit at your feet and just ta- observe." And, and he said, "Well, I'm doing all these events in London this week. You can come." So I would go along, and then that turned into my- During college, that turned into my summer and Christmas vacations being with him, and then when I graduated, I turned down my corporate job offers and actually went and lived there for three years.

Rick Rubin 55:13 Fantastic.

Jay Shetty 55:14 And so it was like all these little steps up to, like, this very big decision. And so that's why. It was just one person who... I've just always been fascinated by people that you meet that can change the trajectory of your life.

Rick Rubin 55:26 Yes.

Jay Shetty 55:26 And the reason why I do this show is because I wanna introduce people to people and thoughts that I think will change the trajectory of their life, because I didn't ever wanna be a monk. I didn't think I'd become a monk. I didn't crave to... Like, I, it wasn't a path I saw for myself, but it became the best thing that ever happened to me at that time, and now I live in gratitude. But I also realize, so I always ask people, "Who's your monk?" Like, who's the person you need to meet that you haven't met yet that could change your life?

Rick Rubin 55:55 There's a example in the book of people say, you know, "I'm, I'm not a good artist," or you, you're either living as an... I say you're either living as an artist or you're not living as an artist. Y- there's not, you're not good at it or bad at it. It's like being a monk. You're either living as a monk or you're not living as a monk.

Jay Shetty 56:14 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 56:15 You can't be a bad monk. If you're living as a monk, you're a monk.

Jay Shetty 56:18 Yeah. I love that. Yeah. It's beautiful. I mean, you've, you've had so much, even today, you know, and that's why I was excited to meet you in person because you have such a spiritual journey and essence in, in just in spirit, even in just your presence and what you talk about, the vocabulary you have, the... Where, where did that

Jay Shetty 56:36 get infused with the work you do? Like, or has, again, has that always been there, or what was your journey to-

Rick Rubin 56:41 I, I, I learned to meditate when I was 14, and that's turned into a big part of my life. I stopped meditating when I went to college, and then when I moved to California, I started again, and when I started again, I realized, oh, even though I hadn't done it for the last five years, a big part of who I am is because I did it when I did it.

Jay Shetty 57:01 Mm.

Rick Rubin 57:02 Had I not stopped, I wouldn't have recognized that.

Jay Shetty 57:04 Mm.

Rick Rubin 57:05 So the stopping and starting was a very clear, wow, this is b- this is a big part of how I see the world already, even with not doing it for the last five years.

Jay Shetty 57:15 What type of meditation is it, and how, how do you-

Rick Rubin 57:17 TM. I learned TM.

Jay Shetty 57:17 TM. Oh, perfect. Okay. Got it. Got it. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 57:19 I learned TM.

Jay Shetty 57:20 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 57:20 Um, changed my life, but, and since then, I've learned Vipassana.

Jay Shetty 57:23 Yes.

Rick Rubin 57:23 I do many different, many different practices and breathing practices and Tai Chi and many different meditative practices. Um, I often come back to TM, maybe 'cause it was first.

Jay Shetty 57:33 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rick Rubin 57:34 And it's beautiful.

Jay Shetty 57:35 Yeah, absolutely.

Rick Rubin 57:36 It's beautiful. Simple and beautiful.

Jay Shetty 57:37 Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I... It's interesting to me, meditation just seems to be... But there was definitely an, a generation where meditation became really prominent in the lives of so many, especially so many people today that you, that you meet that are doing... You know, Ray Dalio's been on the podcast a million times, and again, he, he talks about TM as being such a big part of his financial success in terms of making wise financial investment decisions, and he, he's a special human as well. I feel like that resurgence is back now, where, where there's so much more talk about breathwork and meditation. And if, if you had any words of wisdom or insight for anyone who's trying it, experimenting, what, what would you suggest to them as someone who's done it for so long, had breaks, found usefulness in it? W- are there any things that come to your heart or forefront of your-

Rick Rubin 58:29 The first thing that comes up, there's a beautiful book called Wherever You Go, There You Are. I love that book. I had meditated a, a long period of time before I read it, but I remember reading it feeling like this is the best both introduction to meditation and reminder of the power of meditation, regardless of where you are in your meditative journey. So I would recommend that book as a, as a way in. And find the practice that works for you. And I, I've also used, like, Yoga Nidra-

Jay Shetty 58:57 Mm-hmm

Rick Rubin 58:57 ... or gui- different guided meditations, which also are beautiful and helpful.

Jay Shetty 59:02 Yeah, absolutely. I used a load of Yoga Nidra when I had my hernia surgery. I was like [laughs] I couldn't get to sleep 'cause of the pain, and so Yoga Nidra is beautiful. If you, if you have trouble sleeping, everyone, Yoga Nidra is, like, really special. Um, you strike me as someone who appreciates growth and inner work and self-work through, through at least what, what you've said today and shared today and the thoughts in the book, and, and I was wondering, what,

Jay Shetty 59:29 what do you feel has been the hardest thing that you've worked on internally or the most challenging thing that you've worked on internally? You said you can only compete with ourselves artistically, but internally, w- what has been the greatest challenge that you've worked on or are working on now?

Rick Rubin 59:44 No, I would say losing weight was the biggest challenge of my life. I weighed 318 pounds at one point, and I was overweight my entire life, and, and I tried everything from the beginning. I went to Weight Watchers meetings with my mom. You know, like, my whole life was dealing with weight issues. And finally, just h- honestly getting the right information, because I would do whatever was recommended, and nothing worked. At one point in time, I had a performance coach living at my house for two years who watched everything I ate and, um, got me to exercise and changed, changed my life m- for the... I got so much healthier with his help. And he said, "In the last two years, I've watched everything you've done. 99 out of 100 people would have shed 100 pounds, and for some reason, it just, the weight just doesn't come off." So I ca- I... He's just scratching his head. "I don't understand it."

Jay Shetty 1:00:41 Oh.

Rick Rubin 1:00:41 "Must be s- you know, must be something else." And then finally, uh, I saw a nutritionist at UCLA, and I, and I had n- by this point, I believed nothing would change the situation. My mom was obese. My mom was in a wheelchair. I just assumed that that was the way it was. It was a genetic thing, I assumed. And I went to see a guy at UCLA based on a mentor friend of mine saying, "I really want you to see this guy." And, um, and I was sure it wouldn't work because I'd tried everything and nothing worked, so, um, but I loved this person who recommended me to go. He was one of my great mentors. R- recently passed away. His name was Mo Ostin, a great, great man. He worked for Frank Sinatra and-

Jay Shetty 1:01:23 Oh, wow

Rick Rubin 1:01:24 ... signed Jimi Hendrix and signed the Sex Pistols and, uh, unbelievable person, unbelievable human being. Um, and he, he was the one who got me to see this nutritionist at UCLA. He said, "Just go to see this guy. Go to see the guy that I send you to, and do whatever he said."

Jay Shetty 1:01:40 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:01:41 And, and I did. And, um-

Jay Shetty 1:01:42 Wow

Rick Rubin 1:01:43 ... I lost like 140 pound- 135 pounds in 14 months.

Jay Shetty 1:01:47 Wow.

Rick Rubin 1:01:47 But that was probably the most radical, just 'cause it was a lifelong issue.

Jay Shetty 1:01:51 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:01:52 And I believed it couldn't change. Eventually, I believed it couldn't change 'cause I'd tried everything. And it was, in some ways, this is interesting, the moral of the story is through giving up, I turned myself over to this nutritionist.

Jay Shetty 1:02:09 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:02:09 I didn't do what I thought was right. I did what he felt was right. And what he suggested sounded crazy to me, but I did what he sound, what he thought was right, and it worked. And the same, like, I was... I've, uh, never exercised in my life, and then I started hanging out with Laird Hamilton and these incredible athletes, 'cause when I lost a bunch of weight, they invited me to start training with them. And I just wanted to be around them 'cause they're such interesting people. Like-

Jay Shetty 1:02:33 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:02:33 ... I like being around people who are good at what they're good at, especially when what they're good at is different than what I'm good at.

Jay Shetty 1:02:38 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:02:38 It's just interesting-

Jay Shetty 1:02:39 Yes

Rick Rubin 1:02:39 ... the way they see the world. So I got to hang out with these incredible athletes and, um, and through giving myself to them, of doing what they said, you know, I, first day I went, I couldn't do one pushup. And then, and I say, "I can't do it." He's like, "Don't say you can't do it. Say you haven't done it yet."

Jay Shetty 1:02:59 Hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:03:00 And then they, you know, trained me where I could do 100 consecutive pushups, like cr- crazy things.

Jay Shetty 1:03:05 Yeah. Yeah, you, you reminded me of, um, Thomas Edison's statement of, uh, "When you feel you've exhausted all options, remember this, you haven't." And I, I think it's so interesting with health specifically, it's, it's fascinating that you chose that, but I think that's so true, where you think you're doing everything right, and I've, I've experienced that with myself as well, especially with my, with my gut and inflammation, where I was like, "I was doing everything right. I'm really living a healthy life," and still having this, and then again, passing myself over- [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:03:36 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:03:36 ... to an amazing coach who's just-

Rick Rubin 1:03:38 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:03:38 ... told me exactly what I need to eat and what... And all of a sudden you feel better, and it's almost like magic when it happens.

Rick Rubin 1:03:43 Yes. And but it's also finding the right coach, 'cause you could see 10 other coaches and do what they say, and it doesn't work.

Jay Shetty 1:03:49 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:03:49 It's we're, we're so different. That's another thing, the idea that one size fits all.

Jay Shetty 1:03:54 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:03:54 It's like there is no one answer for anyone.

Jay Shetty 1:03:57 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:03:57 We have to find our path. You could have seen probably many different monks and not had the experience you had. It was that monk spoke to you. I remember the first time I saw Ram Dass speak.

Jay Shetty 1:04:08 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:04:09 I felt like this is the first spiritual teacher that really speaks to me, and the next one was Thich Nhat Hanh.

Jay Shetty 1:04:14 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:04:14 When I saw Thich Nhat Hanh speak, I was so... I felt so much peace in my body hearing him speak that I couldn't even hear what he was saying. I, I, uh, went into a trance in his presence, and this is with 2,000 people. You know, in a room of 2,000 people, he stepped out on stage, and I felt like I was gonna pass out.

Jay Shetty 1:04:32 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:04:33 That's how much peace he carried. So being, seeing these things, seeing these incredible teachers and these deep souls and getting inspired and learning from them all is, um, that's the work.

Jay Shetty 1:04:46 Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and you're right that finding our mentors, our guides, our teachers is such a... or people that inspire you is such a, such a big part of life, and I've found studying their stories and studying their, their life, it, it gives so much texture to your own as well. And, you know, when, when you look at passing these things on, when you look at passing, you know, as you start this book by talking about how you're like, "These aren't facts. They're my thoughts, and hopefully they, they help and support you," when you think about giving this, I can imagine a lot of young parents who are listening thinking, "Well, how do I help my child to tap into their creativity? How do I help, help," even if it's not your child, but my friend, my family member.

Jay Shetty 1:05:31 What are, what have you found helpful ways in being a proponent of ideas that you believe in? Have you found specific things to be more authentic and useful and hence translate better?

Rick Rubin 1:05:46 Well, I think in general, people don't like to be told what to do.

Jay Shetty 1:05:50 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:05:50 So the best way that you could inspire someone to do something is through the way that you carry yourself, and if you, if you act in a creative way in the world, and you do it to the best of your ability, and if someone else recognizes it, it might inspire them to do the same.

Jay Shetty 1:06:09 Hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:06:10 So I think it's hard to teach someone something that we don't practice.

Jay Shetty 1:06:14 Hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:06:14 We have to practice it.

Jay Shetty 1:06:15 Yeah. That's the hardest part. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:06:17 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:06:18 Yeah. That's the-

Rick Rubin 1:06:18 Yeah, but it's also the most fun. It's like-

Jay Shetty 1:06:20 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:06:20 And it, and it's our purpose. It's the reason we're on this planet is to do this work, to do our work, whatever that is, whatever our part is, to play our part in this giant symphony.

Jay Shetty 1:06:31 Hmm. When, when you're trying to find your part, that's the part I think that confuses or concerns so many people because so many parts today have become barcodes or conveyor belts, and there's so many of you doing your part, it may feel sometimes where it's like, well, I work in a company where we all do the same thing. Like, what is my part? I think there's such a... We've been talking about originality the whole time, but I think so many people feel like what they do is so, so much of a commodity, it's not original. When someone's searching for that purpose, as you said, your purpose is to play your part, which, which I think is beautiful, and I couldn't agree more. A few years ago, I really came to the conclusion, I realized that what I do is not better than anyone or worse than anyone. It's not earlier than anyone or later than anyone. It's not for anyone or not for anyone. It's, it is just what I'm meant to do. It's just my role, and that's such a liberating place to live from.

Rick Rubin 1:07:35 Absolutely.

Jay Shetty 1:07:36 But it's, it's... it almost feels like today there's so much pressure for people to pursue that or find that-

Rick Rubin 1:07:42 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:07:42 ... that they either don't find it or they get scared to look

Jay Shetty 1:07:45 for it. What have you found to be useful on that journey?

Rick Rubin 1:07:46 Well, I w- I wanna say that, uh, given the example you gave of the cookie cutter work-

Jay Shetty 1:07:51 Mm. That's the right word

Rick Rubin 1:07:52 ... um, maybe your purpose in life isn't related to your job.

Jay Shetty 1:07:57 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:07:58 Maybe your job is your job, and the job is the thing that supports you, and then the rest of your waking hours are devoted to your purpose-

Jay Shetty 1:08:07 Mm

Rick Rubin 1:08:07 ... whatever that is.

Jay Shetty 1:08:08 Mm-hmm. Yeah, and a lot of us are trying to make it the same thing.

Rick Rubin 1:08:11 Yeah, and, and it's beautiful when it happens-

Jay Shetty 1:08:13 Mm

Rick Rubin 1:08:13 ... but it doesn't always happen, and it's out of our control also.

Jay Shetty 1:08:17 Yeah, yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:08:17 We can decide, I, I would say if you need to have a job to support yourself, that's great. That's a noble thing to do, and follow your dreams. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:08:29 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:08:30 But I'm, I'm not saying they're one thing.

Jay Shetty 1:08:32 Yes.

Rick Rubin 1:08:32 They don't have to be one thing.

Jay Shetty 1:08:34 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:08:34 And don't let following your dreams undermine your ability to support yourself.

Jay Shetty 1:08:39 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:08:40 It could do, it could actually do the opposite. If you decide, "I wanna be a comedian, and I'm putting all my eggs in the comedian basket, and I'm gonna be a comedian," the pressure of having to support, support yourself will change you as a comedian, not for the better.

Jay Shetty 1:08:54 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:08:55 You, you want the stability of being able to take care of yourself in the world to be free to do whatever your passion is.

Jay Shetty 1:09:05 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:09:05 Whatever it is. Fishing. You know? Whatever it is.

Jay Shetty 1:09:09 [laughs] Yeah. And, and that's so true that I think the scarcity ruins the art, right? It's the abundance of, "I did my day job. I'm now safe and secure. I can be artistic-"

Rick Rubin 1:09:22 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:09:22 ... as opposed to sometimes, um, actually, I'm gonna debate my own statement there, 'cause sometimes it also feels like the pain is w- the pain of trying to do something is, is what creates-

Rick Rubin 1:09:32 Maybe

Jay Shetty 1:09:32 ... good art as well.

Rick Rubin 1:09:33 Maybe.

Jay Shetty 1:09:33 But yeah. I mean, I'm... But, but you're- it could be either or.

Rick Rubin 1:09:36 There's pain in it anyway.

Jay Shetty 1:09:38 There's pain anyway, yeah. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:09:39 Yeah, there's pain in, you know, getting up in front of people and them not laughing is painful.

Jay Shetty 1:09:44 Yeah, yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:09:44 It's painful.

Jay Shetty 1:09:44 There's pain in it anyway.

Rick Rubin 1:09:45 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:09:46 Yeah. There's pain in it anyway.

Rick Rubin 1:09:47 Yeah. If that means you also can't eat, I don't know if that makes it less, more or less painful.

Jay Shetty 1:09:53 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:09:53 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:09:54 Yeah, definitely. It's almost like giving ourselves permission to make art.

Rick Rubin 1:09:57 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:09:57 Like, I feel like there's a moment where you go, "Now I'm worthy," almost. But what you're saying is you were always worthy because it's who you are.

Rick Rubin 1:10:04 Yes. You're always worthy. It's who

Rick Rubin 1:10:06 you are.

Jay Shetty 1:10:06 Yeah. Why do you think we don't feel worthy of anything, not just making art? But so many of us, I think, feel a sense of like, we're not worthy to do what we love. We're not worthy to share our purpose or our passion. There's a sense of we don't wanna give ourselves-

Rick Rubin 1:10:20 Yeah, I think there's a mythology that the people who make things that we love are special people, and that we think that they're, you know, the people on Mount Olympus, and they're these magic people who are geniuses, and then there's the rest of us.

Jay Shetty 1:10:35 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:10:36 And that's not the case. It's like we're all just people. We're all doing our best. We all are good at some things, not good at other things. We're humans, and sometimes we find a way to make something beautiful.

Jay Shetty 1:10:48 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:10:49 But that's it. It's, it's-

Jay Shetty 1:10:50 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:10:50 No. Do you know what I mean? There's no, there are no special people, really.

Jay Shetty 1:10:54 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:10:54 We're all special.

Jay Shetty 1:10:55 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I w- I w- I j- everyone please listen to that again and again and again because it's, that's the mess of, like, that person's gifted, they're special.

Rick Rubin 1:11:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:11:04 They did something unique. And I promise you, if you knew them 20 years ago, you wouldn't think that.

Rick Rubin 1:11:09 No.

Jay Shetty 1:11:09 But you just met them at this precipice of their life.

Rick Rubin 1:11:13 And they don't think so.

Jay Shetty 1:11:14 They don't think that, yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:11:15 No. Or if they do think so, their art will suffer.

Jay Shetty 1:11:18 Yeah. [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:11:19 The ones who-

Jay Shetty 1:11:20 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:11:20 ... believe the hype, you

Rick Rubin 1:11:21 know?

Jay Shetty 1:11:21 Yeah, yeah. How did you respond? What was your first time you felt, and even if maybe you didn't even allow yourself to feel it, but what was the first time you experienced success, and how did you respond to it? Because I hear so many people say, "I just wanted to repeat it," right? And that again-

Rick Rubin 1:11:39 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:11:39 ... getting caught in that same... How, when was the first time you experienced, maybe even felt successful, and how did you respond to it?

Rick Rubin 1:11:46 The fir- my first memory of outward success came when, um, the first Beastie Boys album, Licensed to Ill, was the number one album in the country, and I got a call from a person who I worked with saying, "You have the number one album..." I, I only know this because I remember the phone call. Had the call not happened, I wouldn't, I'd would have no idea how I felt. And, and the call came, "How do you feel? You have the number one album in the country." And I remember saying, "I've never been more unhappy in my life." And, uh, and I think we mistakenly think some kind of outward success is gonna change something in us, and it does not. It may make life more comfortable, but it doesn't change who we are, and any, uh, hole in ourselves that we're hoping to fill does not get filled. And if you spend, let's say you spend 20 years of your life working towards a goal that's gonna solve everything, and then you finally achieve what you've been trying to do for 20 years, toiling away. I, "I won't have any fun in, because I'm working for 20 years to, for this end." And then you get that end, and nothing changes. That's when you get hopeless. So it's not uncommon to see very successful artists who are very unhappy in life because they're working towards this, the thing that's gonna make them feel better, and it does not make them feel better. I'm sure you've got to meet many very successful business people, you know, b- billionaire people. Very few of them are happy.

Jay Shetty 1:13:31 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:13:31 Very few. And they've reached their... They've accomplished their dreams-

Jay Shetty 1:13:37 Mm-hmm

Rick Rubin 1:13:37 ... and are unhappy because we don't know what we want. You know, we don't know what's gonna make us happy. We're trying to fill something that maybe can't be filled through material or, uh, cultural success.

Jay Shetty 1:13:53 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:13:53 Public success. It's something else.

Jay Shetty 1:13:55 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:13:56 It's some internal thing.

Jay Shetty 1:13:57 What was it that, at that time that put you-

Rick Rubin 1:14:00 I don't know

Jay Shetty 1:14:00 ... you can't remember. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:14:00 I don't know. I, I think it was more-

Jay Shetty 1:14:02 That's amazing, isn't it?

Rick Rubin 1:14:02 I think it was more just the reality of, well, that doesn't matter at all.

Jay Shetty 1:14:07 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:14:08 And it's always been, I'll say, I like when people like the things I make.

Jay Shetty 1:14:11 Of course.

Rick Rubin 1:14:12 And it changes nothing. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:14:14 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:14:14 You know, it-

Jay Shetty 1:14:15 Yeah, yeah

Rick Rubin 1:14:15 ... it changes nothing.

Jay Shetty 1:14:16 Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I found that there were only a few things through my monk experience that helped me realize what, what made a difference. One was something we're experiencing today, which I really feel from you, and Homer, who's always been here, s- he's filmed every episode pretty much we've done for the past God knows how long now. But that there was a stillness and a quiet and a presence, and so the first thing was presence. The, the idea that presence is a big part of joy and happiness and just being able to actually be here right now in the way you said your, one of your favorite books was, um, Where You Go There You Are. Is that-

Rick Rubin 1:14:52 Wherever You Go There You Are.

Jay Shetty 1:14:52 Wherever You Go There You Are.

Rick Rubin 1:14:53 Jon Kabat-Zinn.

Jay Shetty 1:14:54 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Of course.

Rick Rubin 1:14:55 Beautiful book.

Jay Shetty 1:14:55 Yeah. Wherever You Go There You Are. Um, presence. The other one is learning and growth, the idea that we're growing, we're evolving, we're learning. There is some, some kind of stimulation of evolution. We, we all need to evolve. The third one was achievement. There was a sense of achievement, but I think today's sense of achievement has become about an external metric as opposed to do we even think that's worthy of achieving or pursuing. And then the fourth, which to me, uh, sometimes is the most important, is the service element, the, the act, the offering, that we were working always in devotion. And those were, like, four really simple things that I think have always, uh, formed part of the, the mocktail of joy, happiness, success. When w- you, you said something really beautiful there. You said the first time you felt outward success. When was the first time

Jay Shetty 1:15:50 you experienced inward success or, or felt that, or is that something that's constantly improving?

Rick Rubin 1:15:53 No, that- that's something probably making something, and so it would've been one of the very first records I ever made, the experience in the studio of hearing something that I haven't heard before, getting excited by it, and then maybe going out and hearing it in a club. You know?

Jay Shetty 1:16:07 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:16:07 Like, even getting the club to play it just so I could hear it in the club.

Jay Shetty 1:16:10 Yeah, yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:16:11 That experience of like, wow, there it is, or the first time you hear something that you make on the radio. It's very exciting, not because of what it means, but just I spent my whole life listening to music on the radio, and now there's something I made on the radio. I still have this experience on a semi-regular basis just out in the world. I'll be somewhere and in a coffee shop, and a song will come on that I produced, and the feeling is like, wow, can you believe it's just out there like that? I remember, I remember b- I, I could choke myself up. I can remember being in the room, what we were doing, like, and now it's playing here. How crazy is the world? I went to WrestleMania yesterday, and a song I produced was played at WrestleMania. I wasn't expecting it. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:16:55 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:16:56 I wasn't expecting it. It's like, wow, WrestleMania. It's crazy.

Jay Shetty 1:17:00 Yeah. And you still feel that today. That's what's so special.

Rick Rubin 1:17:02 It's just so wild.

Jay Shetty 1:17:03 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:17:04 It's you can't believe it.

Jay Shetty 1:17:05 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:17:05 It's crazy. It's magic.

Jay Shetty 1:17:06 That, I, I love, I love that, seeing, like, how long have you done this now? Like, how long have you done what you do?

Rick Rubin 1:17:11 35 years.

Jay Shetty 1:17:12 Yeah, like, there was... I, I went, I got to go to, uh, I've been a Manchester United supporter my whole life.

Rick Rubin 1:17:19 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:17:20 And I got to go again recently. I have a really wonderful relationship with the club, and I, I went to watch a game recently when I was back in England, and it was the first time I got to meet, uh, legendary manager Sir Alex Ferguson, and he's, he's the most decorated manager in Premier League history and United's longest-standing manager and, you know, worked with the greats. And I, I got to meet him for the first time, and we're just hanging out and talking and having lunch before the, before the game, and what I loved, what you were saying about you love watching people with greatness, what I loved about him was he was talking about football like, uh, soccer for those who d- but he was talking about football like a fan-

Rick Rubin 1:18:01 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:18:01 ... still.

Rick Rubin 1:18:02 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:18:02 Like, I was like, I was like, "Sir Alex, you gave me the best memories of my childhood." I was naming all these games that they'd won, and I, I knew he knew that. It's like me telling you my favorite songs you've worked on. I know you know them, but I had to tell him for my sake. And he was, like, living each game with me-

Rick Rubin 1:18:18 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:18:18 ... as if it was the first. And I was like, how are you still, you know, how is it that it's still so fresh? And I guess same q- question to you, like, how is it still so fresh that at WrestleMania a song surprises you, and you still get that childlike, like, you know-

Rick Rubin 1:18:32 'Cause it doesn't make s- none of it makes sense. I remember the ordinary situation that it came out of. I remember the studio in, um, it was the f- one of the first times I ever came to California. I remember it's not a studio now. It's a flower shop where the studio used to be, uh, off of La Cienega Boulevard, and it was this tiny little studio. And I remember being in this tiny little room and one of the first times in California, and what a fun experience it was making the record and how cool it was, and that now, however many years later, 25 years later, seeing a stadium of 80,000 people and the song comes on unexpectedly, it's just bizarre.

Jay Shetty 1:19:12 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:19:13 It's bizarre 'cause I know the modest beginnings of all of these. And it's just regular people like you and me showing up somewhere and making something that we think is cool

Jay Shetty 1:19:24 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:19:25 It's unbelievable that it has some life that goes on.

Jay Shetty 1:19:29 Yeah, yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:19:29 It's crazy.

Jay Shetty 1:19:30 But I love that because what I'm hearing you say there is like you took notes. Like, there were mental notes of like that moment we went in, that... Like, there's a gratitude and there's a perspective of it wasn't just, as you've just laid out, it wasn't just about having a record on the radio. It, it was all those minute small moments of discovery and of intrigue and curiosity, which, which you made a note of somewhere in your subconscious that you then recall and live through when you hear that song in that moment. You're not living there just listening to a song at WrestleMania or on the radio or number one. It's like you're living through all those miniature moments that, that created it.

Rick Rubin 1:20:14 Yeah, and, and I never listen back to music that I work on. So when I do hear it out in the wild, it's f- it's funny. It's like, wow, look, it's still there.

Jay Shetty 1:20:24 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:20:24 Crazy.

Jay Shetty 1:20:24 Is there a reason you don't listen to it? Is it-

Rick Rubin 1:20:26 'Cause I'm always making something new.

Jay Shetty 1:20:27 Right.

Rick Rubin 1:20:28 I have no reason to go back.

Jay Shetty 1:20:29 Yeah. You never even feel a sense of nostalgia or like a-

Rick Rubin 1:20:33 No. Unless, unless I'm working with an artist and there's an example that comes up where I think, "Oh, we did something like this a long time ago. This might... Listen to this and see if this gives you any inspiration."

Jay Shetty 1:20:45 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:20:45 So more, more as a tool, but I would do the same for something I didn't make. You know?

Jay Shetty 1:20:49 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:20:49 It would be, let's listen to this Stevie Wonder song-

Jay Shetty 1:20:52 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:20:52 ... 'cause we maybe will learn something. Same.

Jay Shetty 1:20:54 Yeah, yeah. That makes sense. There's, there's

Jay Shetty 1:20:56 a beautiful chapter in this book that I wanna talk about, which is all about memories and subconscious. Um, and I felt that you talk about this idea of larger intelligence and, and tapping into and even making almost journaling about dreams, which I found was something that I'm definitely gonna practically take on. So I've never journaled about dreams. I know I dream, and there's times when I forget and there's times when I remember, and sometimes I'll tell someone, sometimes I won't, and I, I... When I read you say that you actually wrote about dreams and journaled about dreams, I was like, "All right, I'm gonna start doing that now." So that's something you've directly impacted me to do-

Rick Rubin 1:21:31 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:21:31 ... as a practical thing because I feel like I've had fascinating dreams in the past I've forgotten. I've rema- It's, it's too messy.

Rick Rubin 1:21:37 And they go-

Jay Shetty 1:21:38 And they go

Rick Rubin 1:21:38 ... they dissipate very quickly.

Jay Shetty 1:21:40 So quickly.

Rick Rubin 1:21:41 Very quickly.

Jay Shetty 1:21:41 So quickly. And that's when I was reading that part, I was like, "Okay, I need to hold on to these."

Rick Rubin 1:21:44 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:21:45 Um-

Rick Rubin 1:21:45 So some of the tricks I, I-

Jay Shetty 1:21:46 Yes

Rick Rubin 1:21:47 ... talk to some degree in the book, but not s- I just touch on it in the book. There's so much to talk about. [laughs] Um, but when you wake up, you don't move at all because the, the way the dream works, it's a chemical reaction in your brain. So it's also good to know if you wake up from a scary dream and you don't wanna think about it, if you just shake your head around, it'll be gone. So you keep pen and paper right next to your bed, and the minute you wake up, you grab the pen and paper, moving as little as possible, and just start writing. And even if you only remember, I remember there's a part in the dream where this happens, write the part you remember, and you'll see through the process of writing more of the dream will appear. It's... You don't-- Even when you wake up, you don't, you won't remember as much of it as you know. But once you start writing, you can start tapping into more, oh, and before that, this happened, and then this happened after that. And you'll start noticing more details. And the more you practice it, the better you get at it.

Jay Shetty 1:22:47 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:22:47 So I did that for a period of time, and at the time, the dreams made no sense. They were just these abstract, you know, Salvador Dali paintings.

Jay Shetty 1:22:56 [laughs] Oh.

Rick Rubin 1:22:57 And yeah. And just went on abstract.

Jay Shetty 1:22:59 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:22:59 I have no idea. Strange, strange dreams, no idea what they are. And then years later, I found that journal and, and I read it, and when they were happening, I thought every dream every night was completely different and none of them were about anything I understood. And years later, when I looked back at it, all the dreams were about the same thing. [laughs] And they all were... It was so clear what my subconscious was telling me. Uh, I don't remember what it was 'cause it was probably 20, 20 some odd years ago, but I remember being shocked by, oh, this didn't make... I was too close to it to understand it. I was too close. And with a little bit of distance, you can see what it is.

Jay Shetty 1:23:40 Yeah, yeah. And-

Rick Rubin 1:23:41 And it's also interesting to see how your subconscious works, how it, how your subconscious abstracts reality to show it to us in a way that's intriguing and interesting but not obvious. It's very beautiful.

Jay Shetty 1:24:01 Mm. The reason why I love that so much is I even had to retract the immediate question that came into my mind, and I retracted it bec- and I'll tell everyone what it is, but I retracted it because I just love the act of observing and being present with your dream as, as you're showing us how to do. And the modern-day question is, well, what's the benefit of that? Like, why, why would you do that? And, and when I was asking in my head, I was like, if I just listen to you and I'm listening to you and I'm remember reading what I read and I'm thinking, the benefit is just the act of observing and just being there and, and, and being... And then like you said, being able to then look back potentially-

Rick Rubin 1:24:40 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:24:40 ... potentially in the future, maybe not, maybe it is, to see if there are connections. And the subconscious, you're so right, is, is speaking to us in almost such a compassionate, artful way-

Rick Rubin 1:24:50 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:24:50 ... without telling you-

Rick Rubin 1:24:52 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:24:52 ... on the nose-

Rick Rubin 1:24:52 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:24:53 ... but-

Rick Rubin 1:24:53 It's an important point. Don't do things

Rick Rubin 1:24:56 just because you think you're gonna get something for it. That's not why we do things.

Jay Shetty 1:25:00 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:25:00 Do what's interesting to you. Follow what's interesting. Don't worry about the outcome.

Jay Shetty 1:25:06 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:25:07 We don't know. We can't predict the outcome. We can never predict the outcome. Follow your own inner guide. It directs us. It might not make s- it might not make sense to us, might not make sense to anyone else, certainly won't make sense to anyone else.

Jay Shetty 1:25:20 [laughs]

Rick Rubin 1:25:20 But it might not even make sense to us, and that's okay It's fine

Jay Shetty 1:25:24 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:25:25 Listen to yourself. Why is it telling you this? Why is it telling you this? I to- I mentioned my heart surgery earlier.

Jay Shetty 1:25:32 Mm-hmm.

Rick Rubin 1:25:33 My son was born s- 18 months before the heart surgery. I didn't know about the heart issue. I knew about the heart issue and that it was something I was born with, but I didn't know that it was anything I would need to deal with.

Jay Shetty 1:25:44 Wow.

Rick Rubin 1:25:45 And a friend of mine said when my son was born, "You're gonna have a whole lot of energy, and your son is gonna want his mom. So you're gonna have all this energy and nothing to do with it, so pick something interesting to you or that you wanna do or something you want to accomplish 'cause you're gonna have all this extra energy with nowhere to put it 'cause you're gonna want it to go to h- to your son, but he's not gonna want that. [laughs] He's-

Jay Shetty 1:26:11 Mm

Rick Rubin 1:26:11 ... he's gonna be taken." So I decided I wanted to learn, uh, deadlifts, h- heavy deadlifts. I, I... The only exercise experience I had was with Laird Hamilton, and we didn't do any, any formal exercises like that. We did a lot of weight training, but it was more balance and coordination-oriented and super fun, really interesting, and challenging m- as challenging mentally as it was physically. Usually, you'd cognitively not be able to do it before you physically couldn't do it, which was fascinating to me, too. It was never like sitting on a treadmill looking at the TV. It was always if you were not paying full attention to everything you were doing-

Jay Shetty 1:26:50 Yes

Rick Rubin 1:26:50 ... you'd probably get hurt.

Jay Shetty 1:26:51 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:26:52 So really you're focused a- and I like focusing on things, so it was fun. Um, so then I thought, "Okay, learning, like, proper form Olympic deadlifting." I'm doing the Olympic deadlifting, and as the weights got heavier, I realized I was, I had this anxiety before a lift. That didn't make sense to me, and even to the point where I talked to the trainer and I said, "Something doesn't make sense. I'm gonna pick up this weight, and one of two things is gonna happen. The weight will go off the ground, or the weight will not go off the ground. If the weight doesn't go off the ground, we'll take off five pounds, and then I'll try it again. What... If it goes off the ground or doesn't go off the ground, I don't care. I don't care at all. Why would I have anxiety if I don't care?"

Jay Shetty 1:27:40 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:27:41 Turns out the wisdom of the body knowing that when I finally found out what was going on with my heart and I talked to the heart surgeon, and he asked what kind of exercise I do, and I say, "Oh, I'm doing this, you know, heavy Olympic deadlifting," he just, he put his ha- his head in his hands, and he said, "Every time you lifted the weight, you're playing Russian roulette. Every time."

Jay Shetty 1:28:01 Wow.

Rick Rubin 1:28:02 He's like, "There was no worse thing you could have done with what was going on in your heart." So, and again, I didn't know that, but something in my body had all this anxiety around something that I didn't care about at all.

Jay Shetty 1:28:16 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:28:17 So there, there are levels of wisdom that we don't know, we don't understand. So when you have an intuition to take the stairs instead of the elevator, or I always go home this way, but today for some reason I feel like going this other way-

Jay Shetty 1:28:35 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:28:36 ... or maybe I'm gonna cross the street and walk on that side of the street. Whatever it is, whatever little intuitions in your body that come, listen to them. See what happens. B- be open to there's more going on than we know.

Jay Shetty 1:28:49 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:28:50 There's a lot more than our conscious mind can, can pick up going on.

Jay Shetty 1:28:55 Yeah, we often do so many things because we think they're right, we think they're healthy, they're the thing you're meant to do, and it... but it doesn't sit with you somewhere.

Rick Rubin 1:29:02 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:29:02 And, and I think so many people have... I know for a fact that I feel like I started following my intuition when I was probably around 14, and so that voice is very loud. But I know a lot of people that I've worked with and coached and also worked with in, in my life that started stop listening to their inner voice at 14.

Rick Rubin 1:29:21 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:29:22 And so it's very quiet now, and so it becomes harder to really hear it-

Rick Rubin 1:29:27 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:29:28 ... because we've suppressed it for so long, and then the, the ego or the outside noise is so loud that we're guided by that. We're not misguided by that. It- it's hard to tap into it again.

Jay Shetty 1:29:41 Have you found anything that helps you tap into it when you feel like you're losing it, or have you met someone and you've worked with and you've said, "Hey, just try this to tap into it again"? And the example you just gave right now kind of feel real, too, where it can be something as simple as take that route, do that because I find, like, people lose touch with it.

Rick Rubin 1:29:57 Absolutely. I w- I would say when, when you're getting advice of any kind, y- expert advice from whoever it is, know m- maybe that's, maybe that applies to me. Maybe that apply, and maybe it doesn't.

Jay Shetty 1:30:14 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:30:14 But it's okay. It's okay. No, there's no, um, bad intention on the wisdom that's being shared with us. People are g- offering their best information-

Jay Shetty 1:30:25 Yeah

Rick Rubin 1:30:26 ... but they're, the information that they're offering is based on their experience.

Jay Shetty 1:30:30 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:30:30 So know even when it's someone you really respect, when they're suggesting something, maybe that would work. Maybe I'll try it. Maybe not. But listen to what's going on in inside yourself, and I would say getting to wherever it is that you've gotten, we've usually gotten there through listening to something going on inside of ourselves.

Jay Shetty 1:30:52 Mm.

Rick Rubin 1:30:52 I, I have many successful musician friends who have gotten there through listening to what's going on inside themselves and then in success think it's time to start taking direction from the outside world. Makes no sense.

Jay Shetty 1:31:08 It's hard. You either, yeah, like you either do it at the beginning or you do it at the end, and it's almost like they're, they're the same as in the sense of what you were saying earlier, the idea of there's this beginner's mindset where you're always open to hear people's thoughts, so you don't know. There's that idea of I don't know. We have to feel-

Rick Rubin 1:31:26 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:31:26 ... and see. But that's different to I don't know, therefore someone else must know, or I've known up till now and now I don't.

Rick Rubin 1:31:33 No, no.

Jay Shetty 1:31:33 No one knows.

Rick Rubin 1:31:34 We ... I don't know, and nobody knows.

Jay Shetty 1:31:35 No one knows. Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:31:36 And, and everyone's intentions are good. They're not out to get us.

Jay Shetty 1:31:39 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:31:40 But nobody knows. They think they know. The, the wisest thing we can do is know enough to know we don't know.

Jay Shetty 1:31:48 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:31:48 If you start from maybe, maybe that's true, it could work, who knows?

Jay Shetty 1:31:54 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:31:55 Not hold anything so firm as this is the way it is.

Jay Shetty 1:31:58 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:31:59 I know how it is. Any time you know how it is, your world just got a lot smaller.

Jay Shetty 1:32:05 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:32:05 Tiny.

Jay Shetty 1:32:06 Yeah. There's ... Yeah, it's ... Uh, this, this idea is crystallizing for me as we're talking, this idea that you can be thinking, you can be doing, you can be feeling, or you can be knowing, and a lot of us try and place so much emphasis on knowing, but no one actually knows. And so it's better to either change our thoughts, change our behavior, or focus on our feelings and sense, as you've been saying all along. It's like you've got to feel how it, how it, how it's-

Rick Rubin 1:32:31 Yes. And, and I'm not saying we'll always be right.

Jay Shetty 1:32:33 No, no, no.

Rick Rubin 1:32:33 I'm not saying that at all.

Jay Shetty 1:32:33 No, no, no. There is no ... Well, there is no right.

Rick Rubin 1:32:35 It ... Yeah, there isn't even, there isn't even a wrong or a right.

Jay Shetty 1:32:38 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:32:38 Pay attention to what's going on inside yourself. The c- there's so much information going on inside of ourselves, intuitive information.

Jay Shetty 1:32:47 Rick, this has been such a, a beautiful and fascinating conversation for so many reasons. We, we end

Jay Shetty 1:32:53 every On Purpose episode with a Final Five. Uh, and these answers are answered in one word or one sentence each, so you have that kind of capacity. And I, and I want you to tell us about your new podcast that's coming out as well, so we'll talk about that at the end. But, uh, the first question is what is the best advice you've ever heard, received, or given?

Rick Rubin 1:33:16 Uh, don't listen to anyone.

Jay Shetty 1:33:18 And what is the worst advice you've ever heard, received, or given?

Rick Rubin 1:33:23 Don't do the thing you love.

Jay Shetty 1:33:25 Question number three: how would you define your current purpose?

Rick Rubin 1:33:30 Making every step that I make in the interest of the highest good.

Jay Shetty 1:33:37 Uh, question number four: what's something that you believe strongly that you think other people find it hard to understand?

Rick Rubin 1:33:49 Everything.

Jay Shetty 1:33:49 [laughs] That's brilliant. Everything, everything. And fifth and final question: if you could create one law that everyone in the world had to follow, what would it be?

Rick Rubin 1:34:01 Love each other.

Jay Shetty 1:34:02 Beautiful. Rick Rubin, everyone. The name of the book is The Creative Act: A Way of Being. If you don't already have a copy, again, I highly recommend it. Uh, I promise you it will be an investment that will be something you pick up for years. It's not a book you read and put down and then you never see it again. It's gonna be a book that you're gonna go back to again and again and again, day after day, month after month, and find new gems and new jewels and new wisdom that will inspire your creative journey. So if you've been someone who's been blocked, stuck, trying to find out, you know, where that's gone or haven't ever seen it before, this will be the book to unlock it. I highly recommend it. And, uh, Rick, you also have a new podcast as well.

Rick Rubin 1:34:42 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:34:42 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:34:42 It's called Tetragrammaton. I've been doing the Broken Record podcast for about five years, where I mainly speak to musicians, and I'm so interested in, in people who are not musicians. [laughs] I mean, it's just one of the things that I'm involved in, but I'm much more curious than just about music, and it just seemed like, well, why would I do that?

Jay Shetty 1:35:04 Yeah.

Rick Rubin 1:35:04 So I've recorded the first 15 of them.

Jay Shetty 1:35:06 Okay. Amazing, amazing.

Rick Rubin 1:35:08 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:35:08 Where can people find it, everywhere?

Rick Rubin 1:35:09 Everywhere.

Jay Shetty 1:35:10 Okay, okay. Make sure you go and subscribe to the podcast. Got 15 ama- I'm sure they're coming out weekly or-

Rick Rubin 1:35:15 They'll come out weekly.

Jay Shetty 1:35:16 They'll come out weekly. And sounds like I'm sure you've got some phenomenal guests already lined up. So please, everyone who's listening and watching, with the book, go ahead and listen to the podcast as well. I'm sure you're gonna be hearing amazing interviews and introductions and new insights on people that you know and love, and I'm sure there'll be some new people there too. But, uh, make sure you do that. Rick, thank you so much for today. Thank you for your energy, your presence, your, uh, work in putting this together and making sure you put out the book you wanted to put out. I'm very grateful for it. I was, as I said, I was personally amazed at how you'd transformed how people would have thought about a book from you, and I hope it inspires many more people to find their truth as well, so thank you.

Rick Rubin 1:35:55 Beautiful. Thank you so much for reading it.

Jay Shetty 1:35:57 Thank you.

Rick Rubin 1:35:58 I appreciate it.

Jay Shetty 1:35:58 Thank you. Of course. Thank you. I appreciate you. If you loved this episode, you'll really enjoy my episode with Selena Gomez on befriending your inner critic and how to speak to yourself with more compassion.

Speaker 1:36:10 My fears are only going to continue to show me what I'm capable of. The more that I face my fears, the more that I feel I'm gaining strength and gaining wisdom, and I just want to keep doing that