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Jay Shetty Podcast

Robert Greene ON: The Laws of Mastery, Power and Human Nature & Harnessing Your Dark Side For Good

Robert Greene sits down with Jay Shetty to talk about our inner power. How we react to situations, the emotions we pour in, and the amount of control we have over our reactions defines how much power we have over ourselves.

Robert GreeneguestGreat Minds Jay Shettyhost

Nov 8, 20211h 28mWatch on YouTube

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CHAPTERS

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Chapter summaries

Origins of Robert Greene's Interest in Power
After Jay Shetty's opening welcome, Robert Greene traces his interest in power to a sensitive childhood spent observing his parents and to a string of jobs, including Hollywood. He says these experiences inspired The 48 Laws of Power, written from the side of the naive underdog.
- •Greene felt somewhat helpless as a child and became an observer of people
- •He held many jobs across New York, Europe and Hollywood and saw power games everywhere
- •Figuring people out, in his view, is a form of power
- •He calls Hollywood the most power-hungry environment he witnessed
- •He wrote the book to show naive people the rules he learned the hard way
Redefining Power as Influence and Self-Mastery
Greene says power is not just about CEOs and presidents but about the small margin of life we can control: relationships and ourselves. He describes helplessness as a primal feeling and self-mastery as the most important form of power.
- •Much of life is beyond our control, but a margin remains
- •That margin is mostly relationships with family, colleagues and bosses
- •Helplessness is a primal feeling, like an animal on its belly
- •Power over yourself, or self-mastery, is the most important aspect
Why Power Has a Bad Name: Gandhi, MLK and Strategy
Jay asks why people see power negatively. Greene blames cultural tropes of villains and hypocritical self-help writers, and cites Gandhi and Martin Luther King as strategic users of power. Jay adds that sincerity and strategy must go together.
- •Culture teaches that power is Machiavellian and ugly
- •Gandhi's Salt March and King's marches were strategically planned for publicity
- •Those fighting for a cause must think in terms of power
- •Jay says sincerity and strategy must go together
- •Jay quotes King on those who love peace organizing like those who love war
Using the Laws: Offense, Defense and Awareness
Jay asks how to use the laws without being consumed by them. Greene says the laws have offensive and defensive sides, you needn't practice ones that offend your values, and you should know them so you don't become a victim. He uses "crush your enemy totally" and "always say less than necessary" as examples.
- •Laws that clash with your values need not be practiced
- •"Crush your enemy totally" prevails in business, so awareness matters
- •The person who talks less often has an aura of power
- •Many laws are positive, such as appealing to self-interest and despising the free lunch
- •The book is meant to open eyes to reality, not to be evil
Intention, Dark Sides and Whether Power Brings Happiness
Jay asks whether intention affects how well a law works. Greene says people with a dark side can get far, but their one-note aggression eventually hits a wall. He argues that power, defined as control over your environment, relieves anxiety and brings some satisfaction, though not fulfillment.
- •People with dark intentions can succeed in a secular world without consequences
- •Greene cites Melanie Klein's greedy baby as evidence such patterns start early
- •Manipulators lack the soft side of power and eventually hit a wall
- •The art of insinuation works better than yelling at an annoying spouse
- •Control over your environment relieves anxiety but is not the same as fulfillment
Law 29: Plan All the Way to the End
Jay asks how to plan to the end when circumstances shift. Greene says planning is a mental process that prepares you to adapt, warns against plans infected by wishes, and recommends micro goals and deadlines. He also says dreaming of the finished result keeps your energy up.
- •Vague dreams are often infected with wishes, as with the rosy scenario in Iraq
- •Mike Tyson's line about getting hit in the face shows why you must adapt
- •Break big goals into micro goals with deadlines, such as ending the month with ten pages
- •Death ground strategy creates urgency
- •Craftspeople lay the foundation brick by brick while holding an overall vision
Mastering the Art of Timing
Greene explains that time is subjective and that you can shape your relationship to it. He advises acting a little before you feel ready, with Caesar and Obama as examples of forcing time, and distinguishes alive time from dead time.
- •Time is a psychological construct and feels different when you're energized
- •Take action a little before you feel ready and you'll rise to the occasion
- •Caesar crossing the Rubicon and Obama running in 2007 are examples of forcing time
- •Alive time is time you control; dead time is working for others
- •Failure teaches far more than business school
The Stroke, the Shirt and Confronting Mortality
Asked what changed after his stroke, Greene shows the repaired shirt he wore that day and describes it as a memento mori. He says confronting mortality in a visceral way is liberating and has changed how he sees life and other people. He describes meditating on his own death.
- •The jagged line on his shirt marks where paramedics cut it during the stroke
- •He felt himself moving away from life just before he lost consciousness
- •Mortality had been an abstract idea; it became visceral
- •He practiced meditating on his last day on Earth even before the stroke
- •Thinking about death is liberating and makes you appreciate people and moments
Humility, Empathy and Jay's Death Meditation
Jay connects the discussion to The Daily Laws and shares how he uses death meditation to make big decisions. Greene describes how the stroke taught him humility, empathy for dependence and patience. Jay adds a story from his time as a monk.
- •Jay used deathbed reflection when deciding to leave the corporate world
- •Greene says the stroke brought humility and deeper empathy for people who lack control
- •He had to confront his impatience and radical independence
- •He admits he still loses patience some days
- •Jay recalls young monks taking elderly monks to the hospital
Zen Meditation and the Koan Mu
Greene describes his daily Zen practice, zazen, which he has done every morning for 11 years. He explains the non-intellectual nature of the practice and the koan "mu," which he has meditated on for five years. Jay shares the monks' saying that enlightenment is received, not achieved.
- •Greene practices zazen every morning and has for 11 years
- •Enlightenment cannot be reached by thinking
- •The koan asks whether a dog has Buddha nature and the answer is "Mu"
- •Greene has meditated on mu alone for five years
- •Jay recalls the idea that enlightenment is received, not achieved
The Daily Laws and Changing Through Daily Habits
Asked why the book is organized by day, Greene says daily habits, not vague dreams, get you where you want to go. He explains how The Daily Laws is structured, moving from mastery to power, toxic people, persuasion and human nature, ending with the sublime.
- •Daily habits and positive routines displace bad habits
- •Change happens by altering everyday thinking
- •The book follows mastery, the 48 laws, toxic people, persuasion and human nature
- •December draws on his upcoming book about the sublime
Dealing with Toxic People
Greene says most toxic people are narcissistic and tend to appear charming at first, so the key is to detect them before getting involved. He describes warning signs and the importance of emotional detachment, quitting a toxic job if possible, and being wary of people who try too hard. Jay asks how to tell sincerity from an agenda.
- •Toxic people are often narcissistic and disguise themselves as charming
- •Judge character and patterns, not words or resumes
- •Watch for the person who is always the victim of others
- •The animated face with dead eyes is one nonverbal cue
- •Detach by telling yourself it isn't personal, and leave a toxic job if you can
- •Trust intuition and stay a little wary, as envious friends can turn on you later
How We Destroy Our Own Power: Rigidity and Success
Asked how people undermine their own power, Greene names failure to adapt and the grandiosity that success breeds. He and Jay discuss renewal, the Zen raft story and why Greene never wrote a second 48 Laws.
- •Repeating the same strategies in new circumstances leads to hitting a wall
- •Success is more dangerous than failure because it inflates grandiosity and hides the role of luck
- •Jay shares the Zen story of the raft that must be let go
- •With success you become conservative, so Greene changes with each book
- •Jay describes enjoying feeling at the beginning of a journey again
The Sublime: Greene's Upcoming Book
Greene describes The Law of the Sublime, a book that has been brewing for 16 years and grew out of the last chapter of The Laws of Human Nature. He explains the sublime as what lies just outside the circle of convention, with death as the ultimate unknown, and stresses how improbable our existence is.
- •Many people's minds are locked into conventional ways of thinking
- •The sublime lies just outside the circle of accepted thought and jolts you alive
- •Sublime means up to the threshold of a door, and the door is death
- •The odds of your existence are astronomical, yet we never think about it
- •The book is probably three or more years away
Final Five Rapid-Fire Questions
Jay closes with the Final Five questions and Greene gives short answers on advice, purpose, money and the one law he would create. Jay then thanks him for traveling to the studio despite his physical challenges.
- •Best advice was to learn to watch the grass grow
- •Worst advice was to capitalize on the 48 Laws and make a lot of money
- •His current purpose is to write the books he wants to write before he dies
- •He doesn't value money beyond the freedom it gives
- •His one law is to be yourself and be weird

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