Robert Greene: "You Feel Empty Because You’re Living Someone Else’s Life!" – Reclaim Yourself Today

1. 0:00 – 4:28

   Intro

   1. RGRobert Greene0:00

      We don't really have a self. The self is a construction of our minds. There actually is nothing there, and that kind of emptiness, egolessness, is enlightenment. It's a beautiful feeling.

   2. JSJay Shetty0:11

      One of the best-selling authors of the last 20 years.

   3. RGRobert Greene0:15

      Robert Greene. If you're dealing with your own weaknesses and your own emptiness inside, you're gonna be drawn to people who fill that up. People's perception of you can almost become how you perceive yourself if you're not careful.

   4. JSJay Shetty0:30

      Hey, everyone. I've got some huge news to share with you. In the last 90 days, 79.4% of our audience came from viewers and listeners that are not subscribed to this channel. There's research that shows that if you want to create a habit, make it easy to access. By hitting the subscribe button, you're creating a habit of learning how to be happier, healthier, and more healed. This would also mean the absolute world to me and help us make better, bigger, brighter content for you and the world. Subscribe right now. The number one health and wellness podcast. Jay Shetty. Jay Shetty. The one, the only Jay Shetty. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the place you come to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's guest is one of your favorites, someone who's been on the show before. You absolutely loved our first episode together, and so I had to have him back. He's also one of my favorite authors, someone that I've been rereading recently, especially when I fell out of love with learning, and I'll tell you about that in a second. Today's guest is Robert Greene, the author of The New York Times bestsellers The 48 Laws of Power, The Art of Seduction, The 33 Strategies of War, The 50th Law, Mastery: The Laws of Human Nature, and most recently, of The Daily Laws. I am so excited to welcome back to the show Robert Greene. Robert, thank you for being here.

   5. RGRobert Greene2:01

      Thank you so much for having me, Jay.

   6. JSJay Shetty2:02

      Um-

   7. RGRobert Greene2:02

      Thanks for that great introduction.

   8. JSJay Shetty2:04

      Of course. Grateful to have you back in the sea. And as I was just saying to you offline, over Christmas, I spent last year touring. I was on stages. We did nearly 40 cities across 90 days. My book had come out. I was really pouring out externally, and whenever that happens to me, I always kind of after that get a feeling of, "I need to grow again. I need to learn again. I need to nourish myself." And I really believe that last Christmas, The Daily Laws of Power became my daily read, and I have recommended it to so many people. My wife started reading it. My closest friends have started reading it. And it was just such a great book for anyone who's either stuck with reading, someone who's kind of, like, not sure what to read, someone who's trying to figure out their direction in life, The Daily Laws of Power is a great starting place, I'd say.

   9. RGRobert Greene2:57

      Thank you. Thank you very much.

   10. JSJay Shetty2:58

       And, uh, I've always been a fan of your books, and you sent me this beautiful limited edition version, which I'm getting to show off on the show. Uh, but The 48 Laws, what a, what a phenomenal book. So thank you for being such a big part of my learning journey.

   11. RGRobert Greene3:11

       For having me. You're a rock star. But what a tour you've been on.

   12. JSJay Shetty3:13

       [laughs]

   13. RGRobert Greene3:13

       I've never been on a tour like that. That sounds like fun.

   14. JSJay Shetty3:16

       It was fun. It was fun. We went to Sydney and Melbourne and Brisbane.

   15. RGRobert Greene3:19

       Oh my God.

   16. JSJay Shetty3:19

       We went all over India. I went to Dubai. I went to-

   17. RGRobert Greene3:23

       Whoa. I'm so jealous

   18. JSJay Shetty3:24

       ... Amsterdam, Paris, Berlin. It was phenomenal. Like, it was amazing.

   19. RGRobert Greene3:27

       Would you consider yourself more of an extrovert or an introvert?

   20. JSJay Shetty3:30

       That- So that's a great question, and I'm gonna let you define the two for me because you'll probably have some wisdom to share with us. I energize alone, but I enjoy connecting with small groups of specific people. So I assume I'm overall an introvert, but 99% of people would say, "Jay, you're an extrovert." But if I was in a big group of people, I would find the one person who I share values with to have a deep conversation. I wouldn't be milling around introducing myself to everyone.

   21. RGRobert Greene4:00

       Uh-huh.

   22. JSJay Shetty4:00

       So if that makes any sense.

   23. RGRobert Greene4:01

       Do, but do you need to be alone? Do you feel-

   24. JSJay Shetty4:04

       I, I crave alone time a lot.

   25. RGRobert Greene4:06

       Yeah.

   26. JSJay Shetty4:06

       Yes, a lot.

   27. RGRobert Greene4:07

       So you're a mix.

   28. JSJay Shetty4:08

       Yeah.

   29. RGRobert Greene4:09

       You're a mutt.

   30. JSJay Shetty4:09

       Ambivert, yeah.
2. 4:28 – 9:04

   How to Deal with Negative People?

   1. JSJay Shetty4:28

      one I have is, one of the biggest things I get asked is, "Jay, how do I deal with negative people? How do I deal with negative people in my family? How do I deal with negative people in my friend circle? How do I deal with negative people at work?" In close intimate circles, I feel a lot of people feel they're dealing with negativity.

   2. RGRobert Greene4:50

      Well, you know, it all depends on the details, the kind of negative person you're dealing with. There, there are several kind of ways of looking at it, some kind of micro and some kind of much larger. The larger picture is we all have negative traits. We all have dark traits, right? And so you kind of, if you have this idea that it's just humans, human beings are like this, it's like a f- a flower or a rock or a tree. It has its nature. You know, I just accept it. I accept people for who they are, and I deal with them on that level. I don't judge them, et cetera. Now, of course, when you're dealing with negative people, it can be very difficult because negative people like to stir up a lot of drama around you, around them, and that's the kind of power that they get. They like the attention that they get from making people upset, from pulling on your emotions, right? So you have to have, you have to have this kind of larger look at them where I, I... It's not about me, right? They're dealing with their own issues, their own problems. There's a history behind it. It could be their parents, it could be their family, it could be their spouse, their children, whatever, and they're venting it on me in this particular moment, but it's not personal. I tell people, "Don't take everything so personally," right? But then, you know, so there are all these different levels, and it's, it all really depends on the specifics 'cause a lot of people come to me for advice. But a lot of times you're enmeshed with a negative person. Like it's your boss, it's your spouse, et cetera, et cetera, and it's very difficult to do what I'm talking about, right? And so you have to try and get a little bit of distance from them. You have to be able to, to say to yourself, um, "They're not me," right? "They have their own problems. I'm separate from them." The sense of being separate from them is very liberating, right? So they have issues, and they're trying to drag me into it, and they're trying to drag me down. But I'm not them, I have my own life, and I'm not going to get involved. Sometimes you need to have empathy, but sometimes you need to shut that off. And so the best thing in life, though, is, that's why I say there's just so many angles to approach this from, is if they're like a deep narcissist, and, um, that's probably the most common type of negative person you deal with in the world today, and we all have come across this. The power that you have is to recognize people like that before you get involved with them and to not get involved with them, right? And so they have signs, things that you can pick up in advance. People who are toxic, I don't know if we're gonna s- toxic and negative are the same here, they don't show it immediately. They're good at deceiving you. They can be very charming. They can be very dramatic. They pull you in with their great stories. They have-- Sometimes they're even charismatic. A lot of important CEOs in the world, people like Elon Musk, are raging narcissists. They appear very exciting, and you wanna get to know them. But you have to recognize that these are people that are probably going to use you, right? They don't see you as an individual. And the people you associate with, w-we're very, um, as, as humans, we're very open to the emotions of other people, right? And so the people you associate with have a huge role on who you are and the energy you have, you know, your daily life, et cetera, et cetera. And so you have to be very, very careful who you let into your life, right? And, um, God, Jay, I don't know. There's so many different angles-

   3. JSJay Shetty8:40

      Yeah

   4. RGRobert Greene8:40

      ... to approach it from.

   5. JSJay Shetty8:41

      No, that's some really powerful-

   6. RGRobert Greene8:42

      I, I, I tell, I tell people that don't judge people as far as who are you gonna let into your life. Don't be, um, deceived by the appearances. Don't judge people based on their intelligence, on their charm, on whether they're good or bad, et cetera. Judge them on their character, whether they have a weak or a strong character.

3. 9:04 – 13:26

   Look Behind the Mask

   1. JSJay Shetty9:04

      What are some of the signals, the signs we can look out for? Because I think what you just said is so true, that we naturally get attracted to people's appearance, intelligence, charisma, access, because we haven't really been trained to view character.

   2. RGRobert Greene9:23

      Yeah.

   3. JSJay Shetty9:23

      So I remember when I lived in the monastery, the highest quality or character trait that was considered the epitome of internal emotional evolution was humility. And so when you met someone who was humble, and you met someone who didn't have false ego-

   4. RGRobert Greene9:47

      Yeah

   5. JSJay Shetty9:47

      ... they were considered of high character, and we were trained in order to understand that. But in the modern world, that isn't how the material world works. We're almost attracted to people who can come off arrogant and showboaty, and, and even if we sense we don't like that, we still believe that person has power. And so what are things that we have to look out for?

   6. RGRobert Greene10:07

      Well, also there are people who appear to be humble, but they're not really humble.

   7. JSJay Shetty10:11

      Agreed.

   8. RGRobert Greene10:11

      There's a lot of people now who feign humility because it's seen as a positive trait.

   9. JSJay Shetty10:16

      Yes.

   10. RGRobert Greene10:16

       So humans are born actors, and you have to kind of look behind the mask. So I tell people I, I view it as strong or weak character. A strong character is a person who can take criticism, right? Who can work with other people, right? Who can deal with stressful situations, who can handle responsibility, and if there's something goes wrong, they take, "I, I am to blame for it." They don't look at other people. There's somebody you can rely on. You lean on them, and there's something there to lean on. You can rely on them in situations. A weak character is somebody who cannot take criticism. That is probably the number one characteristic. The worst trait, I think, in people, and a definite trait of, of negativity, is somebody who can't take any kind of criticism, right? They're so defensive. So that means they can get away with anything. They can say anything they want, and there, there's just like a wall, a shell around them, right? So the ability in a work situation, in a relationship to, um, to take criticism and not, and be able to use it constructively is an incredibly useful and powerful trait to me that reveals strong character. How people handle stress is a really good sign of their character. So in a work situation, people are good at faking it and, and pretending that they're very strong. But when it gets really stressful, and there's a lot of pressure on it, the mask falls off, and they reveal that they can't handle it. They're too weak. They're reacting to everything. They can't get out of the moment. They're so impatient, you know, and fragile. And so the ability to handle stress shows that somebody has something strong inside of them, right?

   11. JSJay Shetty12:01

       Mm-hmm.

   12. RGRobert Greene12:01

       How they handle power Right? So when people are kind of climbing up the ladder in, in a group or in a job, they, they generally wear-- they generally try and pretend like they're, they're, they're work- with the group. But once they have power, that all falls off, and they can become abusive, and they feel like they can get away with any things that they couldn't get away with before. They treat people below them miserably, et cetera. So when people have power, how do they handle it? Are, are, are they responsible? Do they suddenly become somebody different, or do they maintain the character that they had beforehand, right? What kind of partners do they choose? Do they choose a spouse, a husband, a girlfriend, et cetera, somebody that they can push around, somebody that's inferior to them so that they can feel better about themselves? How do they look when they're playing, like, a game or they're in outdoor activities or something that has something to do with work? Are they so competitive they have to win at everything, even when it's, like, outside of that kind of environment, you know? That-- those-- these are kind of traits-

   13. JSJay Shetty13:08

       Hmm

   14. RGRobert Greene13:08

       ... that help me sort of judge a person's character.

   15. JSJay Shetty13:11

       Yeah, and these are often the things that we either ignore or we actually let them kind of fall by the wayside or, or don't pay enough attention to them because we think, "Oh, no, but they're so smart, and they're so this."

4. 13:26 – 15:02

   Getting Attracted to the Wrong People

   1. JSJay Shetty13:26

      And I wonder how much of that is also like, what, what does that say about us that we often get attracted to the wrong things within people? What does that say about us? Does that make us of strong or weak character?

   2. RGRobert Greene13:40

      I know that, uh, I tend to be-- I tend to get involved with narcissistic people. It's a weakness of mine, right? Um, and maybe it's because of my upbringing, and maybe it's because I feel a kind of emptiness inside of me, and that their charm and the attention that they tend to-- they pretend to give you is kind of enchanting or casts a spell on you, and it draws you in. Yeah, so if you're dealing with your own weaknesses and your own emptiness inside, you're gonna be drawn to people who fill that, fill that up, or you're gonna be drawn to causes and charismatic leaders that pretend to give you a, a, a purpose in your life because you don't have a purpose, but they have it for you kind of thing. So a lot of it has to do, yeah, with ourselves, and we're attracted to, to s- we're even attracted to negative people. And, uh, there are people who have patterns in their life where they deliberately choose the wrong, the worst kind of person for them, right? And, uh, over and over and over again because at least that makes them feel alive. At least the pain of it, you know, gives them a sense of something's hap- something dramatic. And so they deliberately bring on those kind of-- that kind of pain. So it, it's complicated, yeah. Um.

   3. JSJay Shetty15:01

      Yeah. When,

5. 15:02 – 17:23

   Filling Up the Emptiness

   1. JSJay Shetty15:02

      when you said that often we feel an emptiness inside, and you were saying maybe because of your upbringing, you felt that emptiness inside as well. Have you tried to fill that emptiness, or is there another solution?

   2. RGRobert Greene15:17

      Well, uh, to me, uh, it's w- why I wrote the book Mastery. Um, the way I fill my emptiness and how I've done it for, since I was a kid is through my work and through my ideas and my thinking and, and how I'm constantly looking for, uh, new thoughts and new ways of looking at the world. So, um, I, I, I find that if I don't-- if I didn't have my work as kind of... Some people think of work as something that you just have to do, right? It's just a way to get money. But for me, it's a way to, to feel like I'm, I, I'm a, a human being, that I am who I am. I was destined to write these books, and it gives me a, a... Every day I wake up, and I know this is what I need to accomplish, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and so I-- that's why I read so many books. That's why I'm so intrigued by ideas. That's why I'm writing a book right now about a subject that very much captivates me because it does fill that inner kind of emptiness. But on the other hand, um, as someone who meditates and practices a form of Zen meditation, there is a purpose to emptiness, right? There-- It's, it's not necessarily good to be always having to fill things up in your brain, like you're just pouring food into your system. You know? There is something actually kind of intrinsically beautiful about the idea that there, that there is emptiness, that, that I don't really have a self, that there is actually not-- that there is no such thing as a mind, actually. It's, it's an illusion that we create, right? It's something, it's a la-- It's something through words that we have. So that sense of emptiness that, you know, I'm, I don't have an ego or that I'm confronting the world, and I'm just hearing and seeing things as they are, is actually a beautiful thing. So you have to ki- I have to kind of struggle against this idea of always having to fill myself up.

6. 17:23 – 19:10

   Surprising Characteristics in Humans

   1. JSJay Shetty17:23

      What's something... You were saying you like observing humans and humanity. What's something that you've observed about humans over time that surprised you?

   2. RGRobert Greene17:33

      Well, nothing really surprises-

   3. JSJay Shetty17:37

      [laughs]

   4. RGRobert Greene17:38

      ... me because, um, I read a lot of history, and I see that things just keep repeating over and over and over again. I know, though, um, since I had my stroke and since I'm physically weak and there are things I can't do anymore, I've actually noticed that people respond to me differently, and it's actually very positive. So sometimes I can be very negative about people. That's kind of my inclination. That's how I'm, my mind tends to work, which is not necessarily a good thing. We all have these attitudes that make us look at the world a certain way. I tend to have a negative bent towards human nature. But I must say- People have been very, very kind to me since I've had my stroke, and it's, it's sad that you have to have an accident like that to be able to perceive it. But I've seen another side where everyone wants to help me. They kind of empathize with the fact that I'm a little bit helpless in these situations. And, um, it's also made me kind of feel differently about other people who have disabilities or things that they can't help in their lives. But the sense of I'm a little bit helpless, and people are really eager to try and help me-

   5. JSJay Shetty18:52

      Mm

   6. RGRobert Greene18:53

      ... actually is something that has kind of surprised me in a way.

   7. JSJay Shetty18:56

      Mm, mm. Yeah, I, I liked what you said there, that it's, it's sad that someone has to go through something for us to then show that sides of ourselves, which means that it's always there. It means that it exists inherently within us.

   8. RGRobert Greene19:09

      Yeah.

7. 19:10 – 21:31

   Our Capacity for Empathy

   1. JSJay Shetty19:10

      Do you think it's because we... Why, why do you think that is? Why, why do you think that is that if it's inherently there, we don't display it at all times to all people?

   2. RGRobert Greene19:19

      I don't know. Um, I mean, we're all born with a capacity for empathy. It's something that interests me a lot because, uh, the feeling that I'm connecting very deeply to another person, let's say my wife, et cetera, is a very overpowering emotion. It me- gets me out of myself, and I'm seeing the world through her eyes, as opposed to me always projecting myself onto her. It's a very moving experience. And sometimes you go to a movie, and you find yourself getting inside the characters. You're getting outside of yourself, and you're feeling this empathy for them. You're identifying with them. These are all very powerful emotions, right? And we all have the capacity for that. But the world we live in is actually a machinery to deaden those, those emotions, that sense of empathy, right? It just puts so much emphasis on ourselves, on our individuality, on who we are, our needs, you know, our, uh, the attention that we want, that we deserve. We're so focused on ourselves that that natural feeling of wanting to get inside of another person. And you know, it's very strange, Jay, because if you think about it, our inner lives are actually quite boring. The same thoughts repeat over and over and over again, the same emotions, the same preoccupations, the same anxieties. And other people, they're so different. They have their own worlds, right? They're like a, it's like traveling to another country. So we should actually be much more oriented towards other people. Uh, we should have a natural interest in their world because it takes us out of ourselves. It's like therapy. But it's been deadened by so many things in our world, by social media, by the pressures we're under, by just modern lifestyle. And so that empathetic muscle that everybody has is kind of atrophying. And yet there'll be moments where it kind of sparks to life, and you feel like, "God, I want that. I want more of that in my life, more of that in my world. How do I get it?"

8. 21:31 – 22:34

   What’s Your Most Repeated Thought?

   1. JSJay Shetty21:31

      What, what would you say is your most repeated thought on a daily basis?

   2. RGRobert Greene21:35

      Like, um, what do I need to do today?

   3. JSJay Shetty21:38

      [laughs]

   4. RGRobert Greene21:39

      What's on my schedule?

   5. JSJay Shetty21:40

      Yeah.

   6. RGRobert Greene21:40

      You know, so like I'm meditating in the morning, and I'm trying to empty my mind, and I'm going into what's ca- known as a koan, right? And, um, then these thoughts keep pu- bubbling up, and they're so annoying, and it makes you aware of what, how, the machinery of your own mind. And so as you, to answer your question, it's always like, "Oh, did you remember that you have to, uh, call this person this afternoon? Did you remember that you have to change that reservation? Do you remember that you have to do this, that?" They're scheduling things, so unimportant, so trivial. When I'm trying to open my mind up to something vast and important, it's little things like scheduling and stuff like that. Then there'll be other thoughts that will be repeating, you know. Like if I saw a movie from it, images will keep popping up from that and such. It makes you aware that you're not in control of your own mind, right?

   7. JSJay Shetty22:33

      Mm.

9. 22:34 – 24:54

   How Quiet the Mind

   1. JSJay Shetty22:34

      How have you found over time with meditation and other practices, what have you used in order to start quietening, emptying, whatever the right word is for you, releasing those thoughts so that you can connect with vastness, be creative, or self-express?

   2. RGRobert Greene22:51

      Wow. It's, uh, it's not easy, and it's an ongoing process, and I could say I'm maybe 10% of the way where I'd like to be. Um, but first of all, uh, you recognize, you go through a thing where a thought pops up, and it's like, "Why am I thinking about that? I don't like it." You, you realize that it's just a thought. And what is a thought? Now, I know we're getting really weird and metaphysical here.

   3. JSJay Shetty23:15

      I like it.

   4. RGRobert Greene23:16

      But it's not, it's, it's not real. It's a phantom, right? It has no reality. Reality is your body, the present moment, the birds outside, the sky, where you are sitting, the fact that you're alive, that your blood is pumping. These are real. But that thought in your mind is a shadow. It's a phantom. It doesn't exist. It has no reality. And so I go through this process where don't engage with it. And it's really weird because then my mind plays tricks on me, and it pulls up a thought that's definitely gonna engage me, right? 'Cause it wants that. It's, it's like a sugar rush. And so I go, "Okay, no, I'm not gonna engage with it." And it made me realize as I went through that process that this is what social media is based on. Social media has mirrored the human brain on a large scale. We have thoughts that are designed to g- grab our emotions and make us think about them repetitively over and over again, compulsively, right? And there's probably a purpose behind that. But social media is, is actually a genius at that at picking at, putting up things up there that are gonna engage our emotions, so we have to pay attention. So I always try and every time that happens, I withdraw, and I say, "It's just a thought." It's not real. It's not who I am. This is a very important part of meditation. Your thoughts are not who you are. They're a separate part of yourself. You are something different from your own thoughts. I don't know if that means anything to you.

   5. JSJay Shetty24:52

      It does. It does, definitely. And

10. 24:54 – 30:20

    Becoming More Aware

    1. JSJay Shetty24:54

       while we are not our thoughts and we are not our mind, our thoughts become our reality.

    2. RGRobert Greene25:00

       Yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty25:00

       We find that a repetitive thought turns into a habit, that turns into a pattern, that turns into an action, becomes our reality. For example, I am a unorganized, lazy individual usually translates into, "Oh, I forgot to send that. It didn't happen," because now it's a belief that's built up. And so it's so fascinating that something that's so not real becomes so real. And, and I've been really into seeing how thought editing is so useful as an activity and an exercise, because I've found so many of my thoughts become my beliefs, that become my life. And I think a lot of people don't realize, because they don't realize that their thoughts are like clothes that you can change, we do believe that our thoughts are real and our reality-

    4. RGRobert Greene25:55

       Right

    5. JSJay Shetty25:55

       ... and whatever we're hearing in our head is exactly what is.

    6. RGRobert Greene25:59

       Right.

    7. JSJay Shetty25:59

       And we don't realize that, oh, it's like looking in your wardrobe and saying, "I don't like the color green anymore. I'm gonna change it for blue."

    8. RGRobert Greene26:05

       Right.

    9. JSJay Shetty26:05

       It's, it's as simple as that.

    10. RGRobert Greene26:07

        Well, there was a, a, a something I read recently, um, in, in one of the Buddhist, uh, books that I like to read that said our minds are basically topsy-turvy. They're upside down. So the reality is we don't re- I mean, I don't want to get too deep into this, but we don't really have a self. The self is a construction of our minds. There actually is nothing there. And that kind of emptiness, like egolessness, is enlightenment. It's a beautiful feeling, and maybe s- in your life you've touched upon it briefly. I know I've touched upon it briefly. It's not the reality I have every day. But that's the re- that's real, and what's not real are the thoughts, but everything is turned upside down in our worlds. And so these delusionary thoughts about of, about people, about who I am, about my habits, et cetera, they become our reality when it's exactly the opposite, right? You have to be able to s- to, to be aware of that. And so, you know, meditation is all about being aware of, is becoming aware of these things, because we walk around like automatons. You know, I, I'm very into this writer named Gurdjieff. I don't know if you've ever heard of Gurdjieff.

    11. JSJay Shetty27:22

        No, I haven't.

    12. RGRobert Greene27:23

        He was this, um, he's basically from Armenia. He was, uh, the beginning of the 20th century. He was this man who was very interested in, in mysticism, and he traveled throughout Asia trying to find the, the, uh, the essence of all the different esoteric philosophies, and he created his own philosophy, and it's very interesting, very exciting stuff. He wrote a book called In Search of the Miraculous that I highly recommend people. And it's not woo-woo stuff. He was a very, very practical man. He puts it in very practical terms. But his idea is that we walk around asleep. We're, we're on automatic pilot constantly. We're not really aware that we're breathing, that we're existing. We're not aware where our thoughts come from. We're not aware of how our body moves, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so it's a process of slowly becoming aware of these kinds of things that is really kind of... I've been doing this 14, 15 years now, and it's really, really kind of changed the course of my life, I have to say.

    13. JSJay Shetty28:27

        Mm. Yeah, I love that, and I can't wait to read that book now. And I, I couldn't agree more. I feel we're so disconnected from our mind and body that we constantly believe that someone outside of ourself has the answer for how we feel. And while that may be true when you're seeing a doctor or a dentist or something of that professional nature, we don't really know how our body's been feeling for weeks or months until it crashes, and then we realize that we haven't paid enough attention to X or Y or Z, or a relationship in the same way has to end in order for us to realize that it had lost investment and energy or whatever it may be. And we're so far away from the self, or at least this version of the self, that, yeah, we're not really aware. I love what you just said about the idea of how conscious are we of the fact that we're breathing, we're here, we're present, we're together, versus how much are we living up here.

    14. RGRobert Greene29:30

        Yeah.

    15. JSJay Shetty29:30

        And, and it's really interesting, isn't it? Because there's almost two realities that we're always dealing... And if we're getting too heady, I'm happy to move away from it. But it's, it's almost like I've been thinking a lot about how in one sense what's out here is real and in one sense what here isn't. And at the same time, actually, what's going on here is the real because it defines how I interact with everything else. And, and it can help me be a better filter, a better, uh, chooser, selector of the people I'm around and the places I visit.

    16. RGRobert Greene30:03

        So you say you have to kind of use the mind to be able to become present? It's a process?

    17. JSJay Shetty30:08

        I would say I'm alluding to that in discovery, not in pushing it, if that makes sense.

    18. RGRobert Greene30:14

        Yeah, yeah. It makes sense to me.

    19. JSJay Shetty30:16

        Yeah.

    20. RGRobert Greene30:16

        Yeah, I agree with that, definitely.

    21. JSJay Shetty30:17

        Yeah, yeah. I, I've been reflecting

11. 30:20 – 33:42

    How We Process What We’re Experiencing

    1. JSJay Shetty30:20

       a lot recently about how most of what's happening is in the invisible world and that-

    2. RGRobert Greene30:26

       That's very interesting. Tell me more about that.

    3. JSJay Shetty30:28

       So I've just been... I was thinking that in o- in one sense you have reality externally, the visible world, but how I make sense of that visible world is all in the invisible space. And- Ultimately, how I make sense of it is the reality that I experience regardless of what's happening around me, which is why we realize that people who-- Well, we all are telling ourselves stories and narratives all day long, but how we're processing what we're experiencing is our reality as opposed to the event or what someone said or social media, as you gave an example. Like, I can either sit here and say... Like, I know that when I wake up in the morning and I start scrolling on social media, my mind is now moving ten times, hundred times faster than if I don't do that. And I know that brushing my teeth and showering is a much more peaceful process if I haven't looked at my phone than if I do.

    4. RGRobert Greene31:31

       Right.

    5. JSJay Shetty31:31

       And so that choice is being made in the invisible world. And the visible world is simply something I'm interacting with and taking from or being affected by.

    6. RGRobert Greene31:43

       Well, so we mostly live in, in, amid things that are invisible.

    7. JSJay Shetty31:47

       Yes.

    8. RGRobert Greene31:48

       Right? Symbols, et cetera.

    9. JSJay Shetty31:49

       Yes.

    10. RGRobert Greene31:50

        Language is, is, is a symbol. It's not reality. And so, um, things like government and, and social behavior, they're rules and codes that we abide by, but they're not visible. They're invisible, right?

    11. JSJay Shetty32:05

        Yes.

    12. RGRobert Greene32:05

        Yeah, definitely. And, and we're not aware of that.

    13. JSJay Shetty32:08

        And so we're trying to raise our awareness of the invisible world. I'm always trying to raise my awareness of why do I process this, this way? Where, where does this come from? Where is this idea taking root?

    14. RGRobert Greene32:20

        That's a very... Yeah, it's a very interesting process to go through. Yeah.

    15. JSJay Shetty32:23

        Yeah, it's hard. [laughs] It's like-

    16. RGRobert Greene32:24

        It's-

    17. JSJay Shetty32:24

        ... yeah, it's not clear. It's not-

    18. RGRobert Greene32:27

        Yeah

    19. JSJay Shetty32:27

        ... it's not like a here's the step-by-step process. It's just something I've been engaging with a lot.

    20. RGRobert Greene32:30

        Yeah.

    21. JSJay Shetty32:31

        Yeah.

    22. RGRobert Greene32:32

        I like to try and, um, go through a thing where I, I question all of my beliefs-

    23. JSJay Shetty32:36

        Yes

    24. RGRobert Greene32:37

        ... and things of why. Where does that come from? Why do I believe that? Why has that become something that's so hardened into my brain? I believe that about myself and who I am, about other people. I continually try to challenge it and look at what might be the source of it, and then maybe say, "It could be the opposite," right? And actually, it can be-- it can lead to a lot of problems because it's like my mind is always swimming, and I never really think anything is certain. I'm always, you know, seeing the opposite side of it. But, um, I think it's a... In the end, it's a very healthy process.

    25. JSJay Shetty33:11

        How, how do you-- I, I love, I love where we're going because it kind of comes back to your same point. Early-- Sorry, your earlier point about how someone of strong character knows how to take criticism, which means they know how to deal with the opposite of what they think or feel. And so this idea that you're sharing now that it's healthy to be able to question, to evaluate, to assess our beliefs and values. But like you said, it's one of the hardest things to do because you get into a space of uncertainty, you question your identity, you lose a sense of direction.

12. 33:42 – 37:44

    Who Really Are You?

    1. JSJay Shetty33:42

       How do we question ourselves without losing ourselves and actually realize that that is the process of discovering and building ourselves?

    2. RGRobert Greene33:50

       You know, like, who, who really are you in the end? You know? What, what, w-what constitutes you, the essence of you? What were you meant to accomplish in this world, right? Your sense of purpose, you know, to use the title of your show. What is it that makes you an individual, makes you unique, that you alone are, are meant to accomplish in life? Well, it's not given. We don't know it. And a lot of people really, really struggle with trying to figure that out, right? Because they've been programmed by their pa-parents, by their siblings, by the culture, by their teachers to say, "This is who you are. This is what you should believe in. This is what you were meant to accomplish in life. This is what's cool and what's not cool." Okay? And so you have to question yourself. You have to say, "Is this really who I am?"

    3. JSJay Shetty34:41

       Mm.

    4. RGRobert Greene34:41

       "Do I really... Am I really interested in this subject? Am I really interested in this kind of person, in getting in a relationship with this kind of person?" And so question yourself on that level. You're getting at a deeper and deeper core of maybe who you are at essence. You're, you're cutting away all of the social stuff that has been foisted upon you, that it has nothing to do with you, right? So in some ways, you're kind of a mystery to yourself, and you're sort of trying to solve that puzzle. And you have to ask these questions: Is this something I'm actually really interested in? Is this an intrinsically important thing to me, or is it something that's in the culture or something that other people have told me? And questioning that over and over and over again is not to lead you into this abyss where there's nothing real. It's to get you closer to who you are-

    5. JSJay Shetty35:32

       Mm

    6. RGRobert Greene35:32

       ... to what really matters, to what that essence of you is, to what you're meant to accomplish in life. And once you reach that, that inner kind of gold, then you have, you have a degree of certainty.

    7. JSJay Shetty35:43

       Mm-hmm.

    8. RGRobert Greene35:44

       So I know I knew from a very young age that I wanted to be a writer, right? I had a struggle to figure out what kind of writing I wanted. But knowing that's who I am, probably about at the age of eight, it allowed me to go, "I'm not interested in that. I don't wanna do that. This isn't important. Why am I following this career path? Why am I wasting my time here?" And then so knowing that kind of core, you don't have to keep questioning yourself. So I'm never gonna question myself, "Why are you a writer? Why are you writing books? You should've been a, a, a pop star. You should've been a rock singer. You should've written poetry. You should've been a lawyer." No, I'll never go there because I have that, that firm ground beneath me, and that's what your questioning is supposed to lead to, get to the essence of who you are. And once you're there, you have a degree of certainty in your life.

    9. JSJay Shetty36:36

       Mm. Yeah, it does. It does. And I feel like a big challenge, something that I've been thinking a lot about lately is a big challenge of where that comes from is Because we care so much about what people think, and we're scared of being an unsuccessful version of ourselves because we'd rather be a successful version of what someone else wants us to be.

    10. RGRobert Greene37:00

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty37:01

        And so we're scared of being an unsuccessful writer if we could be a successful accountant. We're scared of being an unsuccessful artist because we'd rather be a successful tech person, whatever else it may be, fill in your blank. And because what we think people think of us has such a strong hold on us that we can't pivot to our passions, we can't maneuver to our purpose, we can't accept that maybe I'm not what this person wants me to be. And I've been spending a lot of time in this to try and figure out, and I'll-- and we'll-- let's, let's dive into it from different perspectives. But I guess, how much, Robert, do

13. 37:44 – 41:00

    How People Think About You

    1. JSJay Shetty37:44

       you care what people think of you, and how have you made sense of that over your time as someone who obviously writes, that a lot of people enjoy your reading. People may disagree with you, they may agree with you. People, as you said, debate, discuss. But how have you made sense of that, and, and what's been your process of dealing with how you think people think about you?

    2. RGRobert Greene38:05

       There's, there's how people think about me who know me personally, and there's how people think about me in the social realm who don't know me personally and who have an idea of who I am, which is often very different from the reality. But naturally, as a human being, I care that people understand that I'm, I'm a certain way, that I have a certain character, that I actually love jokes and silly hu- bathroom humor, and that, you know, I like stupid movies, and that I'm not always, you know-

    3. JSJay Shetty38:37

       [laughs]

    4. RGRobert Greene38:37

       ... reading heavy philosophy. You know? My wife can tell you all about this childish side of my personality. So, you know, it's always been important to me to feel kind of authentic and sincere. And I've always hated, and it's probably why I wrote The 48 Laws of Power, I hate people who are pretending to be something that they're not.

    5. JSJay Shetty39:00

       Mm.

    6. RGRobert Greene39:00

       Deeply, deeply wounds me, and I don't know why. I don't know why it's been like this since I was a child. Maybe I suspected that in my parents, the kind of falseness, that upsets me deeply. And so I wrote The 48 Laws of Power because I felt people are such hypocrites. They pretend that they're not interested in power, but that's all they're interested in, right? They wear this front like, "Oh, I just wanna help people. I just wanna r- make movies," and culture and art. No, you're interested in power. So it's always been deeply important to me to kind of reveal what's really going on as someone to sort of feel that way about myself. So when I don't feel like I'm myself, when I feel like I'm faking it... And sometimes, to be honest with you, Jay, being a kind of, quote-unquote, "self-help guru," it feels false. It doesn't feel like who I am. I feel like a bit of an imposter.

    7. JSJay Shetty39:52

       Mm-hmm.

    8. RGRobert Greene39:52

       That's not really what I wanted to be.

    9. JSJay Shetty39:54

       Can relate to that.

    10. RGRobert Greene39:55

        I just wanted to write books. I love ideas. I love thoughts. I love expanding my consciousness.

    11. JSJay Shetty40:02

        Mm.

    12. RGRobert Greene40:02

        Right? So the feeling that I'm not being who I am and that other people are kind of glomming onto that is upsetting to me.

    13. JSJay Shetty40:11

        Yeah.

    14. RGRobert Greene40:12

        I don't know if I'm answering your [chuckles] question.

    15. JSJay Shetty40:13

        Oh, no, that, that's, I mean, that's resonating so deeply with me. I think it, it's so interesting, isn't it, how your self-perception is so different from people's projection onto you, and so I, I can identify with that. I do what I do because I'm just sharing what I love.

    16. RGRobert Greene40:34

        Right.

    17. JSJay Shetty40:34

        So I love meditation. I love, uh, wisdom books. I love traditions. I love ancient wisdom and modern science and seeing the parallels between the two, and I just love talking about that and sharing that.

    18. RGRobert Greene40:49

        Yeah.

    19. JSJay Shetty40:49

        And I don't think I've ever thought of myself as a guru or a guide or a, or that kind of individual. But

14. 41:00 – 43:46

    People’s Perception of You

    1. JSJay Shetty41:00

       we, in society, if someone shares or teaches or gives insight or advice, we box them or bucket them as that. So same as you.

    2. RGRobert Greene41:09

       Right.

    3. JSJay Shetty41:10

       We'd go in the same bucket even though we kind of do similar things but very different things, and we probably have some similar interests and some different interests. And it's interesting how there isn't a space. Like, I often say to people, "I'm just trying to be everyone's spiritual friend." Like, that's my goal. Like, I'm that guy who's introducing my friends to cool things that they may not have come across, whether it's Eastern spirituality or wisdom or whatever it may be. Like, I'm that guy, and that's all I wanna be. I d- I don't wanna be anything else.

    4. RGRobert Greene41:40

       Right.

    5. JSJay Shetty41:40

       But it's hard when you almost get put on a pedestal even though you didn't ask for that or didn't want that.

    6. RGRobert Greene41:47

       Well, people's perception of you can almost become what, how you perceive yourself if you're not careful.

    7. JSJay Shetty41:53

       For sure.

    8. RGRobert Greene41:53

       You know? And so, um, that's why I keep coming back to myself and going, "Is that really who I am?"

    9. JSJay Shetty42:00

       Yes.

    10. RGRobert Greene42:01

        "I don't think so, Robert." You know? And also, I actually, um, am ver- I'm a flawed individual. I'm a flawed human being. I have, you know, blind spots in my nature. I have compulsions that I wish I didn't have. And I don't like this idea that people think I'm this powerful person who's figured everything out-

    11. JSJay Shetty42:23

        Mm

    12. RGRobert Greene42:23

        ... 'cause I'm not. I have... That's why, you know, I write the, wrote the book The Laws of Human Nature. It was because I understand that I share the same flaws, that I have narcissistic tendencies, that I too can feel envy, that I have moments of grandiosity. So I'm not comfortable with the idea, like, that I'm this, somebody that I'm not, the, the, the perception of me is. But that's what happens to a lot of successful, famous people. They become trapped in what other people are thinking about them. They become trapped in that image.

    13. JSJay Shetty42:55

        Mm-hmm.

    14. RGRobert Greene42:55

        And I honestly think, I, I could be way off base, but I'm thinking of somebody like Anthony Bourdain, who committed suicide. I think he was burdened and weighed down so much by how people thought of himself, and it wasn't who he was, and it kind of made him feel deeply uncomfortable. Now, I'm sure there were many other issues going on, but a lot of times it can make you uncomfortable in your own skin, the way people perceive you, and it can lead to deep feelings of depression and lo- and is- and a loss of who you are kind of.

    15. JSJay Shetty43:27

        Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, could write a new book called The Flaws of Human Nature. It's like, [chuckles]

    16. RGRobert Greene43:34

        Thank you.

    17. JSJay Shetty43:35

        It's, uh-

    18. RGRobert Greene43:35

        Well, that's what the book is really.

    19. JSJay Shetty43:36

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, yeah.

    20. RGRobert Greene43:37

        It's the 18 dark corners of human nature.

    21. JSJay Shetty43:40

        Yeah.

    22. RGRobert Greene43:40

        But yeah, that's a good idea.

    23. JSJay Shetty43:41

        Yeah. It's... No, it's just a, you know, a thought of like, it i- it is true. It's there's

15. 43:46 – 46:57

    The Before and After

    1. JSJay Shetty43:46

       a seeking of perfection, and there's a sense that we've created in the world of before and after, in the sense that if you look at like a, a workout program, and there's nothing wrong with this because it makes sense, but there's a before picture and there's an after picture. And if someone's wealthy, it's like they were poor and now they're rich, and everything's a linear before and after journey. And what we're talking about, and I fully agree with you on this, is that actually all of my challenges are cyclical, and they're different. So it's not that I never feel envy anymore, it's that I feel it differently to how I felt it 10 years ago. And hopefully I'm a bit better at dealing with it and understanding it and, and engaging with it than I was 10 years ago, but it's not that it doesn't affect me anymore.

    2. RGRobert Greene44:37

       Right. Right.

    3. JSJay Shetty44:38

       And same with spiraling thoughts. It's not that I don't have anxious or negative thoughts anymore because I'm enlightened. I still have those thoughts. I just deal with them better than I did 10 years ago, and I probably have more tools to help me engage with them.

    4. RGRobert Greene44:53

       That's true. That's very true.

    5. JSJay Shetty44:54

       And, and I think that cyclical nature is a wonderful thing to accept as an individual and as someone who's learning because you then don't fool yourself to think, "Oh, there will be one day where I will no longer have-

    6. RGRobert Greene45:08

       [laughs]

    7. JSJay Shetty45:08

       ... a negative or anxious thought like Jay and Robert." Like, you know, they probably never have it. And it's like, well, yeah, you probably have less, but it's not that I never have them.

    8. RGRobert Greene45:17

       Exactly.

    9. JSJay Shetty45:17

       Uh, right?

    10. RGRobert Greene45:18

        Yeah.

    11. JSJay Shetty45:19

        Yeah. And so, so that kind of idea of this before and after, I think, is what confuses so many people because it feels like, oh, there is a point at which I never have to go back to being this version of myself.

    12. RGRobert Greene45:33

        Well, that life isn't like that. You know, it's weird sometimes because before The 48 Laws of Power came out, I was just this nobody living in a two... one-bedroom apartment in Santa Monica, rent-controlled, you know, never really made any money, never really had any success in life, and I was constantly giving people advice, but nobody would listen to me because I hadn't written the book. And suddenly the book comes out and I'm supposed to be a different person.

    13. JSJay Shetty46:00

        Mm.

    14. RGRobert Greene46:00

        It was very strange. But I'm actually the same person that I was-

    15. JSJay Shetty46:03

        [laughs]

    16. RGRobert Greene46:03

        ... when I was living in that miserable one-bedroom apartment, you know, and giving out my advice that nobody listened to. Now people listen to it, but the only difference is because suddenly I have this credential-

    17. JSJay Shetty46:14

        Yeah, yeah

    18. RGRobert Greene46:15

        ... which is very strange.

    19. JSJay Shetty46:16

        Yeah. I ca- I can relate to that in so many ways. I was... I, I used to be mentoring, coaching people in my community. I would do these little events in London 10, 11 years ago now, where like five people would show up.

    20. RGRobert Greene46:32

        [laughs]

    21. JSJay Shetty46:32

        And, and it was, you know, I was, I was just doing it. I, I would speak at universities for free for years. Like, I was, it was, you know, it's been such a big part of my life to just do this. I've always wanted to be someone who's learning and sharing. That's what I enjoy. I enjoy learning and I enjoy sharing, and I enjoy synthesizing and making things simple and practical for other people. That's, that's what I get my joy from. And

16. 46:57 – 49:58

    Timeless Knowledge in Books

    1. JSJay Shetty46:57

       I was always inspired by two quotes. One is Ivan Pavlov, where he said, "If you want a new idea, read an old book." And so that's always been something that my work has been inspired by. It's always based on ideas that seem timeless, but they're... and, and old.

    2. RGRobert Greene47:13

       Very beautiful. Yeah.

    3. JSJay Shetty47:14

       Yeah. And then there's another thought from Einstein, which is another part of what inspires my work, which is, "If you can't explain something simply, you don't understand it well enough."

    4. RGRobert Greene47:26

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JSJay Shetty47:26

       And so these were the two kind of tenets that what I enjoyed doing in the world. And again, I don't think they're magnificent, miraculous, or brilliant. They're just what I'm meant to do. Uh, and there's such a beautiful significance and insignificance in that very understanding. Like, it's really significant building because I'm like, "I know what I have to do." And it's really insignificant because I'm like, "It's just what I have to do." It's, it's not the best or the worst, or it's not comparative.

    6. RGRobert Greene47:55

       Right.

    7. JSJay Shetty47:55

       Um, and I think that's how when you're talking in The Daily Laws of Power, that's, that's kind of how, in different words, how you describe, like, your life's, um, you know, your life's gift, your life's work, your life's path.

    8. RGRobert Greene48:06

       I've always liked old books myself. So, um, you know, I read a lot of books of philosophy, et cetera, history, but I also read books of famous Zen classics. The 20th century books, eh, I'm not so much, but I'd read like something from the 11th century where the thought process is so different, but it's timeless, it's human. Man, it is so beautiful. It so sparks these ideas that he or this writer, this thinker, was dealing with the same things now a thousand years later, but they still strike a truth. But it's in this language that's very weird and primitive and barbaric. I don't know why that excites me so much.

    9. JSJay Shetty48:50

       [chuckles]

    10. RGRobert Greene48:51

        It's the same idea that a modern writer might write, but put in the words of somebody a thousand years ago, it suddenly touches me.

    11. JSJay Shetty48:57

        Yeah. I f-

    12. RGRobert Greene48:58

        Can you explain that, Jay?

    13. JSJay Shetty48:59

        N- I mean, [laughs] I don't know if I can ex- apart from the fact that you've reincarnated and you had some-

    14. RGRobert Greene49:04

        Yeah

    15. JSJay Shetty49:04

        ... connection to it.

    16. RGRobert Greene49:05

        Yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty49:06

        Can I explain it? I can't explain it, but I can, I can reflect on it. I mean, I find that there's a part of it that that writer or creator may never have known if anyone would ever read it.

    18. RGRobert Greene49:19

        Yeah.

    19. JSJay Shetty49:20

        And so that privacy and that secrecy and that intimacy with their work, not knowing that it would ever be viewed, seen, read, broadcasted, that has some power to it, I feel.

    20. RGRobert Greene49:35

        Yeah, yeah. There's a, there's a humility to that, whereas now people write and we're expecting all these people to be reading it, and we do it for the attention.

    21. JSJay Shetty49:43

        Yeah.

    22. RGRobert Greene49:43

        It was much different back then. Yeah, that's very interesting.

    23. JSJay Shetty49:45

        Yeah.

    24. RGRobert Greene49:45

        I never thought of that.

    25. JSJay Shetty49:46

        Yeah. I've, I've definitely found that I try and re-th- ... Yeah, I try and sit with ideas for longer now and try and kind of... I'd love to know

17. 49:58 – 53:16

    What Makes You Excited?

    1. JSJay Shetty49:58

       your process for that. How have you managed that since that moment of where you became, quote-unquote, successful because externally, because of 48 Laws? How did that change your creative process? How did you hold on to the, the roots of this kind of thinking?

    2. RGRobert Greene50:13

       So after The 48 Laws of Power came out and it was successful, I was at a turning point in my life, and it's a turning point that a lot of people I think have faced, was, do I just continue redoing The 48 Laws of Power? It was successful. It worked well. Why don't I just write The 48 Laws of Power Part II? It'll bring in money. It'll bring in attention. I'll just riff off what I wrote there. And something about me was not comfortable with that. It seemed cheap, it seemed easy, and it seemed lazy. And I know myself that if I'm not challenged by something different, I grow bored. So I have to write something that feels like there's energy behind it, there's anger, there's love, there's something-

    3. JSJay Shetty50:59

       Mm

    4. RGRobert Greene50:59

       ... powerful behind it. I have to feel it or it won't be in the words.

    5. JSJay Shetty51:03

       Mm-hmm.

    6. RGRobert Greene51:04

       So if I'm just doing The 48 Laws of Power Part II, it won't be there. It'll have an emptiness. And damn it, a lot of artists and writers fall into that trap, and it's why their books kind of have this sort of hollow ring to them, right? They're just going through the motions, just repeating what worked before, and I can't stand that feeling. I have to feel like I'm off into a new land if, with this new book, so each book has to represent a challenge, right? And so the one I'm writing now is completely different from all seven of the other books, and it's an incredible challenge, but it makes me excited about it every day because I know I cannot repeat the same kind of books over and over and over again. My soul becomes dead, and I have to feel alive with each project.

    7. JSJay Shetty51:49

       Mm.

    8. RGRobert Greene51:50

       Am I answering your q-

    9. JSJay Shetty51:50

       Yeah

    10. RGRobert Greene51:51

        I keep feeling like I'm not answering your q-

    11. JSJay Shetty51:52

        You are.

    12. RGRobert Greene51:52

        Okay. [laughs]

    13. JSJay Shetty51:52

        You're totally answering my question.

    14. RGRobert Greene51:53

        Okay.

    15. JSJay Shetty51:54

        I'm loving these personal answers.

    16. RGRobert Greene51:55

        Yeah. Yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty51:55

        No, no, I, I can resonate very deeply with that as well. I always try and write about something that I'm working through or struggling with, whether it's personal, whether it's with clients, whether it's with someone in my life, friends, family. Like, it feels alive.

    18. RGRobert Greene52:09

        Yeah.

    19. JSJay Shetty52:09

        It needs to feel alive.

    20. RGRobert Greene52:10

        Yeah.

    21. JSJay Shetty52:11

        I can't write from a point of theory or knowing.

    22. RGRobert Greene52:13

        Yeah.

    23. JSJay Shetty52:14

        Like, the book has to be a discovery.

    24. RGRobert Greene52:16

        Exactly.

    25. JSJay Shetty52:16

        And I've only just started my j- ... I've only written two books, but as I'm h- hearing you, I'm, I'm happy to, that I feel that I'm thinking about it in a healthy way.

    26. RGRobert Greene52:26

        Yeah.

    27. JSJay Shetty52:26

        Because, yeah, I was, I was about to write my third book, and the topic everyone wanted was so predictable and expected and it made sense, and I was like, "I don't want to write about something that makes sense."

    28. RGRobert Greene52:38

        Yeah.

    29. JSJay Shetty52:38

        Like, that's boring. [laughs] Like, it's like-

    30. RGRobert Greene52:40

        Right
18. 53:16 – 55:57

    The Second Self

    1. JSJay Shetty53:16

       When you're, when you're discovering your process through a book or, or, or work, how have you learned to become comfortable in the discomfort of creativity, in that, like, you don't know where the path's gonna take you, you don't know if it's going to land or not, you, you don't know if it ... Like, how are, how are you grappling with that process of what we're discussing?

    2. RGRobert Greene53:39

       Well, it's very strange, um, because I'm dealing with it right this very moment.

    3. JSJay Shetty53:42

       [laughs]

    4. RGRobert Greene53:43

       I'm writing something that's driving me crazy, and it's this, and the very subject I'm writing about is about what I'm going through. So I'm writing it, this is in my book On the Sublime, and I'm writing about the concept of the daemon. Are you familiar with that?

    5. JSJay Shetty53:58

       Mm.

    6. RGRobert Greene53:59

       It's the idea, it's an ancient Greek idea, but it's in many other cultures, that we have a second self, that there's something, there's a voice inside of us that is guiding us to something higher or better, but it can also lead us to something lower and worse. It can be demonic, which is where the word comes from, or it could be something. And Socrates had his daemon. It was a voice inside of him, and it said, it always just said, "This is the right way to go," or, "This is the wrong way to go," nothing more than that, right? And so when I'm writing, it doesn't feel right.

    7. JSJay Shetty54:35

       Mm.

    8. RGRobert Greene54:35

       And it's driving me crazy, and I'm going through this right now. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't resonate. It's not truth. It's not real. You gotta start over. You gotta do it again. And in the back of my mind I'm thinking, "God, I've lost it. I'm getting old, and I just don't have my mojo anymore." But then I realize I've gone through this, like, 85 times.

    9. JSJay Shetty54:56

       [laughs]

    10. RGRobert Greene54:56

        Every single book. It'll come to you. It'll come back. It's, isn't right because it doesn't feel right. It doesn't resonate. It doesn't have a reality to it. So I have to go through this process Where I write something and it excites me and it interests me, and it just flows out of me as opposed to, like, I have to pull every word out. And so I learned to trust myself that eventually I'll figure it out. But each time I hit that wall, I go, "This is it, Robert. You're finished."

    11. JSJay Shetty55:24

        [laughs]

    12. RGRobert Greene55:24

        "The book isn't gonna come out. You're done. The wells are dry," you know? So-

    13. JSJay Shetty55:28

        Yeah. That's so interesting. I feel like that is every creative's journey. Like, it has to go through that, the wells are dry, as you just said, that kind of experience of, "That's it. It's over."

    14. RGRobert Greene55:41

        [laughs]

    15. JSJay Shetty55:41

        "There's nothing else coming out now. I'm like..." You know? And, and it's almost like we ... As, as we know, like, the cliche of, like, it's on the other side of that feeling.

    16. RGRobert Greene55:50

        Yeah.

    17. JSJay Shetty55:50

        But it's, but it's true. There, there is a sense of when everything is just not making sense. How

19. 55:57 – 59:21

    The Core of Your Reality

    1. JSJay Shetty55:57

       have you learned to sense whether something feels true to you? Because it obviously felt true to someone. How, how do you decipher between, "Oh, this feels true, it feels real to me," even if people don't agree with it?

    2. RGRobert Greene56:09

       Because it just feels that way.

    3. JSJay Shetty56:10

       It, it's purely just a feeling.

    4. RGRobert Greene56:12

       First of all, it, it, like ... I'm always trying to get at what's real and, and not at what's theoretical. I have a real dislike of abstraction for its own sake, right? It feels like it's, it's, it's, it's a, a way of eluding something. It's, it's, it's an evasion. I wanna get at the core and the reality of what I'm trying to write about. And so when I get it, I feel it, and I know that I've done that. And I, and I have the reader in my mind, and I know the reader can connect to it. It's, it's gonna have a personal appeal. Whereas I have a tendency to be abstract and professorial and theoretical. I cross all of that out. You ... If you saw my notebooks, 95% of it's crossed out, and I don't let the public ever see that side of me because I don't like it. I want my books to feel like I'm a- I'm hitting something that's actually truthful and real, that people don't like to talk about kind of thing.

    5. JSJay Shetty57:10

       Mm-hmm.

    6. RGRobert Greene57:10

       You know? So right now I'm writing about w- what is our self? What is the sense of self that we have in our world? It's a very limited idea of the self. S- We have a very limited idea of our consciousness. We have a very limited idea of what it means to be a human being in the 21st century. We're actually much more immense and much more interesting than we think we are. We have these possibilities, these connections, because we're a part of something incredibly vast. And to have consciousness is absolutely a, a, an astounding thing.

    7. JSJay Shetty57:43

       Mm-hmm.

    8. RGRobert Greene57:44

       Right? So I wanna sort of expand what you, the reader, thinks of who you are, what your self is. It's much larger than you imagine. But I have to, to convey that in language that feels right to me, that feels authentic, that feels like everybody in Africa, in China, in, in India, in Idaho is gonna be able to relate to it, you know?

    9. JSJay Shetty58:09

       Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah, no, no, for sure. And that's, I think that's what I was alluding to with that invisible world point of, like, how that's what we don't see. Like, there's so much to ourself that we don't see, that we're fully unaware of, that we don't have a- we don't realize we have access to.

    10. RGRobert Greene58:24

        Right.

    11. JSJay Shetty58:25

        And yeah, it i- finding the right terminology I find to be such a ... There's, there's one word that I love, which is a bit more ethereal, but I guess an astronomer could find some beauty in it. But there's a term in the Vedic literature. It's called antariksha, which means inner sky.

    12. RGRobert Greene58:43

        Say, say it again.

    13. JSJay Shetty58:44

        Antariksha.

    14. RGRobert Greene58:45

        Antariksha.

    15. JSJay Shetty58:45

        "Antar" means inner and "akasha" means sky.

    16. RGRobert Greene58:48

        Inner sky?

    17. JSJay Shetty58:49

        Yeah, inner sky.

    18. RGRobert Greene58:50

        Beautiful.

    19. JSJay Shetty58:50

        And it's this idea of how, you know, we're so fascinated by s- outer space, but there's that same inner sky that exists. So just that, like the galaxy and the planetary systems and everything else, that exists internally too.

    20. RGRobert Greene59:05

        Oh, I have to-

    21. JSJay Shetty59:05

        But, but there has to be a ... Just as we have to go and do space exploration-

    22. RGRobert Greene59:10

        Yeah

    23. JSJay Shetty59:10

        ... you could do the same internally-

    24. RGRobert Greene59:12

        Oh, for sure

    25. JSJay Shetty59:12

        ... and you'd discover so much.

    26. RGRobert Greene59:14

        That's exactly what I'm writing about.

    27. JSJay Shetty59:15

        Yeah, yeah.

    28. RGRobert Greene59:15

        That's very interesting.

    29. JSJay Shetty59:16

        Yeah. And, and, and it's, yeah, it's fascinating. And so yeah, I find language is what ...

20. 59:21 – 1:01:41

    Limited Language

    1. JSJay Shetty59:21

       I find vocabulary so needed, and I feel like I grew up with a smart vocabulary, but not the biggest. And I feel reading, of course, expands that, and especially when you read history and other books. And I've found that it's ... Language is just so powerful, and I, I worry that social media exposes us to such limited language that the brain and the mind and the consciousness doesn't have the opportunity to be expansive because the words don't allow for it. If we're all reading the same memes and the same trends and the same hashtags, and it, it kind of just creates this very, very limited space of consciousness.

    2. RGRobert Greene59:59

       Well, that's why I like looking at other languages. I've, I speak several other languages, and I'm constantly learning them. And I'm, right now I'm reading arou- a, a lot about an African culture called the Akan, um, in West Africa, in Ghana, and they, their concepts of the soul, the spirit, and the body. And they have a word in there called sunsum, and we translate it to spirit, but then I'm reading the African philosophers who actually know that word, and they go, "It's not the s- it's not the same as the word spirit." And then they go on and describe it. And that one word contains all of these other worlds that are so weird and interesting that the word spirit in English does not convey, right? You know? And other languages have that sense. And so language can have that possibility where it opens up. It's not just this uni- this one track meaning. It has other valences, other possibilities to it, right?

    3. JSJay Shetty1:00:59

       Mm.

    4. RGRobert Greene1:01:00

       And so yeah, we're kind of deadening our language in a way. And, you know, if you study, like, other cultures- You know, Eskimos had like a thousand words for, for snow and we have one word, you know? Russians have like 40 words for the color blue and we have one word kind of thing. Our l- as the language gets smaller and smaller and more uniform, our thoughts become more and more limited and uniform. So to now hear a word like inner sky, it opens up all these other ideas in your mind.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:01:36

       Mm.

    6. RGRobert Greene1:01:36

       Whereas we don't have a word like that in English, you know?

    7. JSJay Shetty1:01:39

       Mm-hmm. Mm.

    8. RGRobert Greene1:01:40

       And th- and then,

21. 1:01:41 – 1:04:49

    The Limited Circle of Harmony

    1. RGRobert Greene1:01:41

       uh, 'cause I'm, I'm doing things with Zen, Japanese language is so rich with things that we can't possibly even begin to express in English, you know? So, yeah.

    2. JSJay Shetty1:01:52

       What, what have been other ways of people opening up their minds? Uh, this has been something, one of my favorite things to do. I remember reading a quote from Robin Sharma years ago that said, um, [lip smacks] "Ordinary people have big TVs. Extraordinary people have big libraries."

    3. RGRobert Greene1:02:09

       Uh-huh. [laughs]

    4. JSJay Shetty1:02:09

       And, and it was one of those c- you know, little dreams I had. That was like, one day I have a home, I'm gonna have a big library, and, and that was one of my most favorite things to kind of put together when I, when I moved here. And, um, I started spending more time in... When I would travel, I've always collected books. I've always... [inhales] And, and I started also collecting, expanding my audio library. I realized as I grew, when I was growing up, we listened to a very limited form of music in my home. And even as I was growing up as a teenager, I listened to like one genre of music.

    5. RGRobert Greene1:02:43

       What was that?

    6. JSJay Shetty1:02:44

       Uh, rap and hip-hop. Like that was... And again, I love rap and hip-hop. I love rap and hip-hop history. It's super cool. I have no issues with it. I just think that my audio library was so limited in my teens that now that I'm in my 30s, I'm now listening, I'm trying to listen to so many random different things, which again inspire different thoughts, different feelings, different emotions. And so I've realized that vocabulary was one thing. Audio's been another thing. What are other things that you've discovered that help open up that consciousness and mind? Because as we both keep referring to, social media technology is, is almost making us more limited, more singular, more one-dimensional.

    7. RGRobert Greene1:03:22

       Well, um, as I said, it's something I'm, I'm writing about right now. So m- music and the audible stuff is very, very interesting and very exciting. So this is new phenomenon where musicologists have been able to recreate music from eras that we never could listen to before. So I was writing at one point about, um, a, a, uh, festival in ancient Greece, and to put me in the mood, I wanted to hear ancient Greek music. That, well, that doesn't exist. I mean, there are no recordings of it [laughs] , but sure enough, there are. And the rhythms and the sound is so weird and alien that it makes it... Music captures the spirit of a time, right? So if we're only hearing these same melodies, you hear cars going by with that same kind of pop song, it's such a limited circle of harmony, such a limited circle of what music can be. But when you open up to African music, to music from ancient Babylonia, to Greece, to music in South America, other rhythms, other poetry in, in music and sounds, it's mind-blowing. It's interesting. So that's what I'm saying, that the human animal is much more interesting than we think it is. Reading about ancient cultures is a very mind-expansive, um, project you can go

22. 1:04:49 – 1:11:04

    Different Thoughts About the World

    1. RGRobert Greene1:04:49

       on.

    2. JSJay Shetty1:04:49

       Mm.

    3. RGRobert Greene1:04:49

       Because-

    4. JSJay Shetty1:04:49

       Are there any books you'd recommend in that regard?

    5. RGRobert Greene1:04:51

       Oh.

    6. JSJay Shetty1:04:52

       [laughs]

    7. RGRobert Greene1:04:54

       You know what's so exciting now is they have these books called The Daily Life In. The Daily Life in ancient Babylonia, The Daily Life in, um, I forget which city in India, The Daily Life in ancient Greece, et cetera. And you get a feel for not just the grand philosophical issues, but how people ate, what their houses were like. And so, um, so I was writing a wr- I just wrote a chapter about our relationship to time and history, and I was trying to take the reader... In my new book, I'm giving them exercises, and I'm saying, "Try to imagine yourself in a world a thousand years ago, and you walk out your front door. There's no mechanical sounds. There's no airplanes, there's no cars, there's no machines. It's just birds, maybe a saw and a hammer is the most you're gonna hear." That's a strange thing. There are no signs. There are no advertisements. There's no words everywhere. It's kind of empty, right? You're just wandering around. There are all these kind of rants and weird, horrible smells 'cause people aren't bathing. There's no s- but they're very human smells, right? Your whole sensory experience is on another level. But when you live in this 21st century world where things are so sanitized, where we don't smell these things, we only hear these packaged mechanical sounds, your sensory world is shrinking down and down and down. And you realize, yeah, ancient world, they had some bad stuff. They weren't very good. You know, they had slavery. I, I, I understand all of the negatives, so I'm not painting this portrait. But on another level, their realm of senses, their realm of language, their internal worlds were far richer than ours. And by connecting to that, by reading these books, by reading books, not just the daily life thing I said, but actually text from those times, as I was mentioning when I read a monk, a Zen monk from the 11th century, and the different thought processes, it opens my mind to a different way of thinking, to a different way of accessing reality.

    8. JSJay Shetty1:07:03

       Mm.

    9. RGRobert Greene1:07:04

       But like I'm reading a lot about Aztecs 'cause I'm sort of obsessed with the Aztecs. I don't know why. And they had these amazing spectacles. That was the thing about the ancient world, these festivals and spectacles that are far beyond Burning Man or any rock concert, right? You know, I could describe the fire ceremony in Aztec culture that only occurred every 70 years. There is nothing you can ever imagine in your life that would be like that. It is so utterly spectacular. And so I have this 800-page book called Aztec Philosophy, and it's very theoretical. But God, it gives you an i- an entree into a totally different way of thinking about the world.

    10. JSJay Shetty1:07:48

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    11. RGRobert Greene1:07:49

        Right? Where they have these metaphors, um, that the universe has this energy. Some of the energy is like string that's being wound around a certain way. It's like weaving, like other, other things like that, this kind of energy that the world has. Wow, this is fascinating. You know, our ancestors were actually thinking of... But they're not our an- they're us.

    12. JSJay Shetty1:08:13

        Mm-hmm.

    13. RGRobert Greene1:08:13

        It's a human being. We're all human. We all have those same kind of consciousness.

    14. JSJay Shetty1:08:17

        Yeah. You know, I, I love also finding things in cultures that match but are in different languages. And so-

    15. RGRobert Greene1:08:24

        Like what?

    16. JSJay Shetty1:08:26

        So I, I went to Hawaii a few years ago, which obviously for someone who grew up in London, it's not normal. People in America or LA travel to Hawaii fairly often. I went to Hawaii and, um, well, not often, it's more accessible. But I went recently, and my wife and I went, went on one of the tours there, and they showed us, uh, the petroglyphs, which are there obviously like markings and storytelling-

    17. RGRobert Greene1:08:49

        Yeah

    18. JSJay Shetty1:08:49

        ... uh, technique and tool. And they were showing us how when a child is born, they used to place the umbilical cord on the ground, and they would then draw a spiral around it.

    19. RGRobert Greene1:08:59

        Ah.

    20. JSJay Shetty1:08:59

        And that would be seen as a place that the child could always come back to-

    21. RGRobert Greene1:09:02

        Wow

    22. JSJay Shetty1:09:02

        ... to feel the energy and reconnect with the earth.

    23. RGRobert Greene1:09:04

        How exciting.

    24. JSJay Shetty1:09:05

        And I was thinking, "That's spectacular. I wish everyone felt this connected-

    25. RGRobert Greene1:09:08

        God

    26. JSJay Shetty1:09:08

        ... to the earth." And then we would go out every morning on a canoe. I forget their name for it, but they had their version for it. And they would pay respects to the sun and the ocean, and we would take part in this ceremony with them. And in India, there's something known as Surya Namaskar, which it translates to sun salutation.

    27. RGRobert Greene1:09:28

        Sure.

    28. JSJay Shetty1:09:28

        Which again, I've talked to Andrew Huberman about this. It's like kicking off the circadian rhythm, but the goal is you pay your respects to the sun for everything it offers to you-

    29. RGRobert Greene1:09:37

        Yeah

    30. JSJay Shetty1:09:37

        ... and the energy that it provides. And so to see that in Hawaiian culture, Indian culture. And then I was in Bhutan recently. I went on a trip to Bhutan, which I'd always wanted to visit. And this is a culture that really feels like you're going back in time. Like you walk out there, and it feels like what you just described a thousand years ago. When-
23. 1:11:04 – 1:13:21

    Slowing Down

    1. JSJay Shetty1:11:04

       we all, all of us who were there experienced this sense of slowness that you don't experience anywhere else, and not in a bad way. In a, in a, the mind, the, the gravity almost of the space was really, really powerful to experience.

    2. RGRobert Greene1:11:22

       That's very exciting because, you know, you can go out into nature, into the mountains, and you can feel that, and you can feel like this is what it was like 2,000, 100,000 years ago. But we don't have that feeling with human things because every city has its Starbucks, its malls, its generic culture that we've transported throughout the world. So to have a place where you can actually go back in time is fantastic.

    3. JSJay Shetty1:11:50

       Mm-hmm.

    4. RGRobert Greene1:11:50

       But I wish it wasn't so far away.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:11:52

       [laughs]

    6. RGRobert Greene1:11:53

       You know?

    7. JSJay Shetty1:11:53

       Yeah, yeah. It's f- it's fine. It's fine. It's worth visiting for anyone who wants to. It was a really special trip. But you're right, the, the generic culture is the right word, actually. There's, there's, uh, every street looks the same. Every area looks the same. You, you do-- I know there's a lot of passion behind local businesses, and it's healthy. People want to support local business. We need more of that because the generic culture really takes away from... Like you expect, I mean, I was in India just recently on the way back, and it's like there was a Tim Hortons like [chuckles] right there.

    8. RGRobert Greene1:12:25

       A what?

    9. JSJay Shetty1:12:25

       A Tim Hortons, which I think is like popular in Canada or somewhere like that.

    10. RGRobert Greene1:12:29

        Never heard of it.

    11. JSJay Shetty1:12:29

        Is it popular in the US, Tim Hortons? No, it's Canada. Or my wife was telling me about it. But it was just one of the, it's, it's, and then there was a Starbucks, and then it was the same-

    12. RGRobert Greene1:12:37

        Yeah, yeah

    13. JSJay Shetty1:12:37

        ... the same thing. And I was like, "I'm in India." Like-

    14. RGRobert Greene1:12:39

        I know. [chuckles]

    15. JSJay Shetty1:12:40

        ... you know, like I, I did not expect it. But it's, yeah, it's the generic is what's made the brain so dull.

    16. RGRobert Greene1:12:47

        It has.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:12:48

        Yeah.

    18. RGRobert Greene1:12:48

        Yeah. We're becoming homogenized. I mean, I, I like going to pl- countries like Mexico because there's still pockets in Mexico-

    19. JSJay Shetty1:12:55

        Right

    20. RGRobert Greene1:12:55

        ... where you can feel something of another, of a very different culture. You know, uh, it's only in small little areas, but it's very exciting. It's nothing like Bhutan, but you can still get it a little bit, you know?

    21. JSJay Shetty1:13:09

        Yeah. Robert, it's been such a joy talking to you today. And as always, I love how we just get lost, and this is what I wanted. I was, I was craving a ... authentic, real connection-

    22. RGRobert Greene1:13:17

        Ah, okay

    23. JSJay Shetty1:13:17

        ... of where both of our minds are in this moment.

    24. RGRobert Greene1:13:19

        Okay, yeah.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:13:20

        Um,

24. 1:13:21 – 1:18:53

    Robert on Final Five

    1. JSJay Shetty1:13:21

       but I wanna end with a few, uh, solid, uh, fast-paced questions. We call this the fast five. Uh, and I probably did it with you last time, so I'm gonna change it up this time for you.

    2. RGRobert Greene1:13:31

       I hope my mind is fast enough-

    3. JSJay Shetty1:13:32

       [laughs]

    4. RGRobert Greene1:13:33

       ... to keep up with you.

    5. JSJay Shetty1:13:33

       So you have to answer the questions. It's more like the final five. You've got to answer the questions in one word to one sentence maximum.

    6. RGRobert Greene1:13:40

       Ah.

    7. JSJay Shetty1:13:41

       So, uh, Robert Greene, these are your final five. The first question is, what is something you had wish you'd learned earlier?

    8. RGRobert Greene1:13:51

       The piano. I mean, I know you were-

    9. JSJay Shetty1:13:52

       [laughs]

    10. RGRobert Greene1:13:52

        ... probably thinking about-

    11. JSJay Shetty1:13:53

        No, that's beautiful

    12. RGRobert Greene1:13:54

        ... something about life, but I love music, and I wish I had learned the piano when I was young.

    13. JSJay Shetty1:14:00

        Do you still play? Do you play now?

    14. RGRobert Greene1:14:02

        No.

    15. JSJay Shetty1:14:02

        No, okay. Uh, second question. What is something that you used to be sure about but that you now are less sure about?

    16. RGRobert Greene1:14:13

        I guess a sense of, um, right and wrong or good, good and evil.

    17. JSJay Shetty1:14:19

        Mm-hmm.

    18. RGRobert Greene1:14:20

        When I was young, I had a very strong sense of it.

    19. JSJay Shetty1:14:23

        That's a great answer.

    20. RGRobert Greene1:14:23

        And now I'm not so sure about what it is.

    21. JSJay Shetty1:14:26

        It's a great answer. Uh, question number three. If you could go back and live in any age, I'm thinking you're gonna say the Aztecs, but, uh, where would you like to go and where would you wanna live, and what would you ask?

    22. RGRobert Greene1:14:40

        I would go back to the Paleolithic era and our earliest ancestors because I'm fascinated by their world and what they were like.

    23. JSJay Shetty1:14:52

        Mm.

    24. RGRobert Greene1:14:52

        So the Paleolithics 20,000 years ago, okay? And I would, uh, like to know about their, their religion, their spirituality. I'm interested in origins of human consciousness, so.

    25. JSJay Shetty1:15:07

        Mm.

    26. RGRobert Greene1:15:07

        Yeah.

    27. JSJay Shetty1:15:07

        Have you read any books on that, that-

    28. RGRobert Greene1:15:09

        Yes. Oh, my God

    29. JSJay Shetty1:15:10

        ... what would you recommend if someone's-

    30. RGRobert Greene1:15:11

        It's a subject I was just... my last chapter I was writing about.

Episode duration: 1:18:53