Russ ON: Toxic Masculinity, Music & Mental Health: “My Songs Were Cries For Help”

Russ 0:00 When you get everything you thought you wanted and you still feel empty, you realize, wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing.

Jay Shetty 0:07 This is one of the most remarkable, amazing stories in hip hop. Russ.

Russ 0:12 I do whatever I want, whenever I want. I love it. I thought, I'm never gonna get depressed. What does that even mean? I don't need any of y'all. Look, uh. And it's like deep down you wanted everyone, though. How strong of a man are you if you're scared to face yourself? Straight up.

Jay Shetty 0:29 Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.

Speaker 0:51 The best-selling author and host.

Jay Shetty 0:53 The number one health and wellness podcast.

Speaker 0:55 On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 0:58 How

Jay Shetty 0:59 do you even go about thinking about what being enough means, especially in a culture that's comparing and-

Russ 1:03 Right

Jay Shetty 1:04 ... always putting you up against other people?

Russ 1:06 Yeah, it's so hard for me, 'cause I think it does start in childhood, and I think it started with, you know, wanting to meet the standard that my dad set. And, you know, my dad, who I love him... And disclaimer before, like, this interview goes more, it's like I love my parents, and they have done, I think, a great job, and I don't blame them for anything. Um, there's just realities that have happened that, like, you know, there's experiences that I have that I now have to deal with and learn from, et cetera. But my dad's standard was perfection a lot of times, you know, and he was very critical. And so for me, you know, his metric w- it was impossible to me. I ended up adopting it as my own, you know? And so the inner voice for a long time, it was my dad's inner voice of, you know, "That's not good enough. Nah, you know, you got a 92 on the test. If you would've studied, you'd get 100, but it's still an A," but, you know, little things like that or showing him music early on and career stuff and just in general, right? And but that inner voice that used to be his became my own inner voice. So now, like, it, it becomes this sort of inner critic that when I go platinum it's like, it doesn't do it. Maybe double platinum will. Maybe triple... Oh, you- how much money did you make, 10? Oh, maybe 11 million will make you feel good. And so you keep chasing the next thing thinking that's what's gonna make you feel good about yourself. And I think, um, to reference, like, the Rick Rubin interview, I think he mentioned something where it's like you get the number one album, you get all this stuff, and it doesn't do what you wanted it to do, and you feel emptier than ever. And I think that's kind of the place I got to, was I got the money, the house, the this, and whatever, and that's how you know there's really something missing.

Jay Shetty 2:55 Mm.

Russ 2:56 Because how'd you get all that and you still don't feel good?

Jay Shetty 2:58 Mm-hmm.

Russ 2:59 And it's a really empty feeling, 'cause most people in the world think that the reason why they're not happy and not feeling enough is all these things that they'll probably never get. And it's kind of this beautiful, uh, blissfully ignorant place to live, because you just get to, like, always have this idea that, nah, I know, like, I'm gonna keep going towards this, and I know this is what's gonna give me happiness, even though you'll probably never get it, right? Most people won't ever see a million dollars or whatever. But for the people who get it, and by... And I want no sympathy for, like, [laughs] "Oh, we don't feel bad for you. You're a millionaire, get over it." But it's like when you get everything you thought you wanted and you still feel empty, you realize that, wow, that was not what I was supposed to be chasing, and there's a bigger hole here. And now I need to grow down.

Jay Shetty 3:45 Mm-hmm.

Russ 3:45 You know? And I, I need to look internal, because external didn't do it.

Jay Shetty 3:49 Mm.

Jay Shetty 3:50 And that's what Oasis is all about on the album, right?

Russ 3:52 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 3:52 Like, would you say Oasis is the closest track to that feeling or?

Russ 3:55 So Oasis was sort of this fool's paradise is what the, um, idea behind that song was. It was like I got the house, the life. Everything on surface looked like, okay, you did it, and internally, though, I was still a mess. I was joking with you, you know, off camera, like last time we talked. You know, I was 30 pounds overweight. It was just proportioned nicely so it didn't [laughs] it wasn't-

Jay Shetty 4:19 [laughs]

Russ 4:19 ... it wasn't, like, too big in any one place. [laughs] But I was 30 pounds overweight. I was drinking too much. I was eating too much. I had no discipline over my thoughts, my eating habits. I had no discipline over my sexual energy, things like that. So it was really like I was a glutton, you know? But the way that is dressed up sometimes, you're a rock star. You're a king, you know? And so Oasis is about on surface, yeah, you're eating good. You're, you know, you're, you're gaining weight, but, uh, d- 'cause you're getting money and you're eating good and you're sleeping with random women and drinking. But it's all good, because look, another plaque just came in and more money came in, another sold-out show. Um, and it was sort of poking... Like, that whole song is sort of like poking fun at me, 'cause I'm in my little oasis. I'm distracted by, like, look at my house. Look at my life. What, like-

Jay Shetty 5:10 I love what

Jay Shetty 5:11 you just said. You're like, you're distracted-

Russ 5:13 Yeah

Jay Shetty 5:13 ... by the gold.

Russ 5:15 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 5:15 And you're distracted by the shining lights and the bright things and the plaques.

Russ 5:19 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 5:20 When you're that distracted, how do you open up your eyes? Like, how do you even get to a point now where you're able to look back and go, "I was distracted. Now I'm a bit more awake and I'm working on this stuff"? Because I can imagine that it gets so loud. You're a rock star, you're a king, you're all these things, and then all of a sudden you've got to kind of like quiet that down and go, "But I'm still not happy." How do you get that breakthrough? Because I feel like we're all the best at setting ourselves up for failure.

Russ 5:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 5:46 And we're all the best at avoiding advice when it's good. Like, I know ... when I'm wrong because when my wife says something and I know she's right-

Russ 5:55 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 5:55 ... and I don't wanna admit it-

Russ 5:56 Right

Jay Shetty 5:57 ... because I know she's right, and that's what ... But it's that awareness piece is so hard.

Russ 6:02 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:02 How, how did you, what was the moment for you? 'Cause you are killing it. You're still killing it.

Russ 6:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:07 You looked well then to me. You look well to me-

Russ 6:09 Thank you. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 6:10 ... t- today.

Russ 6:10 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 6:10 Like, you look great. Like, right? So and, and I really enjoyed your company last time, and I'm enjoying your company this time. So externally-

Russ 6:17 Yeah

Jay Shetty 6:17 ... you could argue, well, what's going on? So-

Russ 6:19 Well, as men, we get good at masking it.

Jay Shetty 6:21 Yeah.

Russ 6:22 That's part of, like, you know, I have a long answer for this, but, um-

Jay Shetty 6:26 Go on. Go for it

Russ 6:27 ... first of all, therapy is kinda what, like, not woke me up, but it helped. But something I learned in therapy is, uh, this idea that, you know, society measures a man based off of how much they can carry, how far they can carry it, and how alone they can carry it. And I think for a lot of men, we have become professional, um, hiders of our pain. And so while I was, quote-unquote, "distracted," what woke me up to what was going on was that there was psychological warfare and internal chaos constantly anyway, you know? I like, I just kept pushing it down, pushing it down, but I knew it was there 'cause I was pushing it down. And it just got to a point where I just had a breakdown one day. It just, you push it down enough, and at some point you can't push it anymore, and it, you know, overflows, and it ... And what I learned is, um, when you're burying it, burying it, burying it, when it does finally just explode, it's always gonna be at the worst time. And, uh, that time came right before a European tour that I had scheduled, and I had to cancel it 'cause I was like, my body and spirit and mind just shut down. I just couldn't even do it. Uh, I couldn't even, like, go through the motions of acting like I could perform. And, um, you know, through therapy and talking every week and, you know, and really, really being vulnerable and being honest with my therapist, which I couldn't wait for. Like, getting a therapist has been at the top of my to-do list for, like, four years, and I just never did. I never got around to it 'cause I just always, once again, was like, "Do I really need one? Look how good my life is. Like, nah, I think I'm tripping." But it just got to this point, man, where I was like, "I need to talk to someone 'cause I feel like I'm going insane."

Jay Shetty 8:10 Yeah.

Russ 8:10 It's just been so helpful 'cause I'm like-

Jay Shetty 8:13 Yeah

Russ 8:13 ... I wanna figure out what's going on internally. So it's like, well, I don't know how to fix this, so let's act like it doesn't exist, you know?

Jay Shetty 8:18 I'm so

Jay Shetty 8:19 glad you raised this 'cause I've been looking for the person ... I'm about to introduce a conversation that I've been trying to find the right person to have it with.

Russ 8:25 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:25 And it just clicked me in this moment that you're that person.

Russ 8:28 Come on.

Jay Shetty 8:29 Like, literally, and I think it's such an important conversation that I've been trying to navigate. I have it offline a lot, but I haven't really had it online, so this will be the first time that I talk about it here. But it's like you just raised that as a man especially-

Russ 8:45 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 8:45 ... we're good at masking it.

Russ 8:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 8:47 And I think men in today's society, being a man in today's society is such an interesting time. And you come across to me as, you know, like, you're ... And, and you can describe in your own sense, but you're a confident man. You know, you're a man's man I'd, I'd, I'd say as well.

Russ 9:04 I don't know.

Jay Shetty 9:04 Like, I don't know how you see yourself.

Russ 9:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 9:05 That's why I don't know how you see yourself-

Russ 9:06 Yeah

Jay Shetty 9:06 ... I was gonna ask you.

Russ 9:07 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 9:08 Because you, you so confidently are like, "Hey, man, I need to find help. I went to therapy."

Russ 9:13 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 9:13 But at the same time, you're a rapper on stage who's, like, dropping, like, the best bars. And so I'm like, when you look at that paradox, I love that because I'm thinking about what is it that you think men are struggling with most? And maybe it's even through your own friends, the people you hang out with. Like, what do you think men are struggling with in today's society? Because I don't feel we talk about that enough with, like, what the struggle is.

Russ 9:34 Yeah, I think, I mean, so much. But I think, I think men are struggling with being in tune with their own emotions and feeling safe and feeling like they have permission from themselves to feel what they're feeling-

Jay Shetty 9:50 Mm

Russ 9:50 ... because society has told them, "Get over it," effectively, you know? And, um, I think for me, that's what I did for the, you know, for the most part. And I think my generation, let, let alone, like, generations before me, like, we all saw our dads probably just, like, get over it and figure it out and, you know, brush, brush the dirt off and, and, and keep going. And, um, that's what I did, and I would just put little trickles of what I was feeling in the music. Like, it's so funny, you know, when I had that breakdown, when I finally just was honest with myself and, and got a therapist, I would go back and listen to old songs, like songs like Nobody Knows or songs like All to You, and it's like these were, like, such cries for help that I think made me feel more insane because I would put them out, and they just became songs, you know? And it sort of downplayed what was really going on because it's like I take a very vulnerable, real emotion of sadness and pain and confusion and feeling lost and don't know what to do and turn it into two and a half minutes of music, and now it just becomes numbers on a screen and streams and how loud is it at the shows. And I forget, fans forget, people forget, but most importantly, I forget that, oh, no, like, this was, like, really what I was going through. This isn't just, like, a, a lullaby.

Jay Shetty 11:11 Yeah. I think you're right. I feel like when I talk to people, I feel like men are feeling a lot of pressure to be a lot of things.

Russ 11:20 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 11:20 Like, to be successful, to have it together, to have some emotional maturity, figured out their mental health. And again, you know, every gender has their own pressures that come with it.

Russ 11:31 Right.

Jay Shetty 11:32 But I think I know a lot of men who feel scared to share that pressure because they feel, like you said, that they shouldn't have it.

Russ 11:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 11:39 Like, they're not allowed to have that pressure. I think you're

Jay Shetty 11:42 one of the few music guys that has found a way of intertwining mental health and music in a way that it's not cheesy-

Russ 11:48 Yeah

Jay Shetty 11:48 ... and it's not, like, corny, and it's not, like ... It comes across ... Like, when I listen to you, I'm just like God, that's a bar. That's like, you know-

Russ 11:55 Yeah

Jay Shetty 11:55 ... you just, it's, it, you can appreciate it just because it's good music-

Russ 11:58 Yeah

Jay Shetty 11:58 ... and then knowing that you have this conscious side to yourself. Was that, like, always at the forefront of when you got into music, or was it something that evolved with time because of your journey? Because I think it's quite, it's quite a hard balance to talk about meaningful stuff-

Russ 12:12 Yeah

Jay Shetty 12:12 ... in a way that doesn't come across as cheesy and corny. So how, how do, how have you found a way of being able to do that?

Russ 12:18 Yeah. I think I always was looking for answers, you know? And I think I always, as a consumer of music, I always like substance and lyrics and things that I could, you know, things that meant something. You know, things that maybe could help me. And as an artist, when I wanted to make my own, I was trying to find answers. Like, my creative side was trying to piece together these other sides of me, like what was going on with my family, with my friends, with my relationship, with my career. Like, the creative side of me would come in and be like, "Maybe this means that. Maybe what you're feeling means this. Maybe..." You know? And like, like I said, there's, like, all these little, like, Easter eggs, I guess, throughout my catalog of me trying to figure it out. And so I think I was just naturally and am naturally a curious person and an ambitious person. And so, like, am- ambitious in the sense that I really want to figure out what is going [laughs] on with me.

Jay Shetty 13:13 [laughs]

Russ 13:14 Like, I wanna know why I think the way I think, where that came from. And I think in the past, it's funny when you're like, "You're a confident man," et cetera, et cetera. I was omnipotent, and I've learned that that's not confidence. You know? That's insecurity. And, you know, I, because it's, I mean, this is so, so multilayered, but it's funny your shirt says, "Imperfections," 'cause it really stems from me being a perfectionist-

Jay Shetty 13:40 [laughs] Yeah

Russ 13:40 ... right? So, like, me being a perfectionist, there's no room for me to not be right. There's no room for me to not know what, like, not act like I know everything and what's going on. And I got being a perfectionist from, like, the standard that my dad set, which ended up becoming my own standard. So early on in my career, I had this omnipotence where, like, I knew everything, everything I was doing was right, and I felt like I had to act like that because if you're a perfectionist, there is no room for criticism.

Jay Shetty 14:07 Mm.

Russ 14:07 Perfectionists are trying to run from criticism, and help is coded as criticism-

Jay Shetty 14:13 Mm

Russ 14:13 ... to a perfectionist. So I didn't want any help, and if you tried to help, I took it as a critique, and it threatened my idea of being a perfectionist.

Jay Shetty 14:20 Wow. [laughs]

Russ 14:20 You know? But, like, I'm trying to figure out the answers.

Jay Shetty 14:23 Yeah, yeah.

Russ 14:23 So, like-

Jay Shetty 14:24 Dude, I- one thing you said to me last time, I've quoted this so many times in interviews when I get asked questions about like, "Oh, what was one of your favorite takeaways?" And it's from our interview, and it's you said that when you sometimes get in the studio at that time, you were like, "I get rid of all my friends-

Russ 14:40 Yeah

Jay Shetty 14:40 ... so I can be in there alone and make weird sounds-

Russ 14:43 Yes

Jay Shetty 14:43 ... that I wouldn't make when people are in the room because I might be scared of what they think." And I've said that to so many people, and everyone's always, like, quite blown away or taken aback because I guess-

Russ 14:52 Wow

Jay Shetty 14:52 ... it's not a common thing that artists do. And, and it stayed with me for so long, but I was interested by what you just said. Like, how did your immediate, I

Jay Shetty 15:02 guess your immediate circle, I'm assuming you're around people that you love, but-

Russ 15:04 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 15:05 ... how do you think then the wider circle responds to you saying things like, "I need help. Therapy is good for you." And be like, you know, like, do you have, do you feel like the wider circle goes automatically? Like, do you think the world's got to a place now where we're like, "Yes, Russ, that makes sense. You're right"? Or do you still have people around you going, "No, you don't need therapy, man. You just need to go smoke or blow some cash" or like-

Russ 15:25 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 15:25 ... like, what, what... Because you come from the rap music world, I wonder what do you hear?

Russ 15:30 Um, I think my friends, like my immediate circle-

Jay Shetty 15:33 Yeah

Russ 15:33 ... my friends were all very supportive. My family was supportive as well, but they're obviously like, "What's going on?"

Jay Shetty 15:40 Mm.

Russ 15:41 Because my identity has been attached, when it comes to my family, my identity has been attached to helping them.

Jay Shetty 15:47 Mm.

Russ 15:47 You know? That's how I felt safe. That was the role I played.

Jay Shetty 15:50 Mm.

Russ 15:51 And I've never asked for help. I've never received help. I've never come off like I needed help.

Jay Shetty 15:57 Mm.

Russ 15:57 And so when they saw that I needed therapy, I'm canceling tour, it's like 911 in my house, you know, as far as, like, my family. And, um, so they were just, like, really concerned. Um, but I think as far as the world's concerned, I do think the world is more open and receptive to the idea of men needing help, and that's okay.

Jay Shetty 16:20 Mm.

Russ 16:20 And even if they're not open to it, that is naturally where this is going. Like, I just feel like the pendulum has to swing at some point, and this whole idea that men have to just be like, you know, military men who show nothing, no emotions, and, like, figure it out and don't ask for help and we do it ourselves, it's like that is not sustainable. You know? It's just not. Men need to communicate and collaborate with each other and, you know, not feel so alone.

Jay Shetty 16:49 How have you found the

Jay Shetty 16:51 reaction to that from, like, straight women? Do straight women find men more or less attractive or good partners based on-

Russ 16:58 Yeah

Jay Shetty 16:58 ... that kind of approach and vulnerability? Like, how, how-

Russ 17:01 I think it depends on the woman.

Jay Shetty 17:02 Yeah.

Russ 17:02 I- and I think a lot of times there's great women out there who will respond well to that, and there's women who won't. And I think a lot of times with men, you know, they are scared to show that vulnerability because of what a lot of women have displayed, which is like, "Now I'm not attracted to you."

Jay Shetty 17:20 That part, yeah.

Russ 17:20 And it's like, you know, I said on, um, I said on Enough, on Santiago, "Some women looking at you lesser if there's tears on your cheek, but if there's tears tattooed, that same girl is a freak."

Jay Shetty 17:31 Oh.

Russ 17:31 "So they're attracted to the pain unless they hear the pain speak." So it's like, it's really interesting 'cause when you-

Jay Shetty 17:36 [laughs]

Russ 17:37 ... when you talk to, when you talk to women, when you-

Jay Shetty 17:39 It's so good.

Russ 17:40 Thank you. But it's like when you talk to women and you, like, kinda see where their head's at, you see that they kinda, like, a lot of women want this sort of rough and rugged guy who's like, he's tough and all these things, but, like, you don't want him to talk about it 'cause now he's soft. But it's like, so you want him to have some pain- S- because that's what makes him the rough and rugged, you know, but you just don't wanna hear about it.

Jay Shetty 18:06 Mm.

Russ 18:07 And so where does he go then? It's, oh, so you just want him to be quiet, but then you're wondering why he can't open up to you. Oh, well, he just doesn't open up to me. Which one is it? This isn't Build-A-Bear.

Jay Shetty 18:19 [laughs]

Russ 18:20 You know what I mean? Like, and I feel women, too, who it's like dudes want the girl who does the-

Jay Shetty 18:24 Yeah, yeah.

Russ 18:25 That's why it's like find someone that's compatible with you and gets you and rock out and forget about the rest.

Jay Shetty 18:30 Yeah, but I love the way you j- I mean, the lyric, it speaks for itself, but that is summed up so well. And by the way, everyone who's listening, I'm not trying to take sides or-

Russ 18:39 Yeah

Jay Shetty 18:39 ... you, you get where I'm coming from. Like, I'm just trying to come from a place of, like, where are we... It's exactly what Russ just said, like we want someone to be tough, but without the pain, without talking about the pain, and it's like that's just not real. It doesn't exist. The idea that someone is tough and hasn't been through pain is nonexistent.

Russ 18:59 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 19:00 And at some point, that person is going to need to express or connect or collaborate, as you said, either with you or other people about their pain. This also applies to women. It applies to every gender that-

Russ 19:10 Yeah

Jay Shetty 19:10 ... people who've been through pain are gonna have stories to tell.

Russ 19:13 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 19:13 And if you want someone tough, chances are that they've got grit and resilience because they've had massive loss in their life or-

Russ 19:20 Right

Jay Shetty 19:21 ... so I think you just summed up... That is exactly what I was [laughs] trying to get to. And so-

Russ 19:24 It's like pain is a prerequisite for being a tough, hardened man.

Jay Shetty 19:28 Mm.

Russ 19:28 Hardened from what? You know? Hardened by what? Pain.

Jay Shetty 19:32 Yeah.

Russ 19:32 Experience. So it's like I just... I do think it's really interesting for, um, the group of women who want vulnerability and openness emotionally from men who they also almost shame into thinking that keep your pain to yourself, though.

Jay Shetty 19:49 Yeah, and then there's the other side. I find I have a lot of friends who are like, "My man doesn't open up," right? Like, I have a lot of friends who are like, "Look, I wanna be there for him. Like, I'm ready to listen to him. Like, I'm, I want him to be more open about his feelings."

Russ 20:01 Well, 'cause men are scared that if they do, oh, wow, never mind, this is unattractive.

Jay Shetty 20:05 Yeah, yeah.

Russ 20:06 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:06 Yeah.

Russ 20:06 'Cause it goes against what we as men have been taught makes a strong man.

Jay Shetty 20:10 It's not personal to you. It's how society has set us up, right?

Russ 20:13 We've been brainwashed.

Jay Shetty 20:14 Yeah.

Russ 20:15 You know?

Jay Shetty 20:15 Would you say yours is just you're so seeking the answers? Like, what gave you cou- the courage to break that as someone who's a stage performer-

Russ 20:23 Yeah

Jay Shetty 20:23 ... who's crushing it, who has, who has actually everything that 99% of men want.

Russ 20:28 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 20:28 What gave you the... Was it courage, or was it just like, "I just need this," like, you know?

Russ 20:32 Yeah, it was out of desperation, to be honest. And also, I think, like, being isolated from society plays, like, a part in it. Like, I'm not out and about. I'm not trying to be on the scene and make friends. I... Like, there's a part of, like, being in my bubble that sort of gives me that safety net of like, okay, if I'm vulnerable, it's like who does that really... I'm not worried if that girl or this person is gonna feel a way. Like, it's kinda just me, you know, that has to deal with this.

Jay Shetty 20:59 How do you keep that distance? I feel like people struggle with that even if they're not an, in entertainment.

Russ 21:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 21:05 People get glued to social media. They get addicted. How are you keeping distance when you're so interconnected to the industry in one sense?

Russ 21:12 I think it's also just a testament, though, to my fans. I think I've had, like, I'm really fortunate to have the kind of fans that I do that are actually supporters of me. And from the beginning, I've tried to be as authentic as I was in that moment, and I've tried to be vulnerable and introspective, and I think all of that played a part in when I did have to cancel tour and when I have let fans in on, like, the journey of mental health and therapy, them being open to it because this isn't coming out of complete left field as far as the introspection and the vulnerability. I'm a vulnerable artist.

Jay Shetty 21:48 Mm.

Russ 21:48 Um, I never was, like, that worried, like, if my male fans would be like, "Oh, we're out," because it's like y'all are singing Losing Control.

Jay Shetty 21:57 Yeah.

Russ 21:58 You know what I mean? Like, y'all are singing love songs and heartbreak songs, so-

Jay Shetty 22:00 [laughs]

Russ 22:01 You know what I'm saying? Straight up. And it's like-

Jay Shetty 22:03 Yeah, yeah

Russ 22:03 ... everyone's at a different place in their journey, and, like, however, like, wherever you're at is fine.

Jay Shetty 22:07 Yeah, I remember that. When I was, when I was a teenager, when I thought I was... When, that's when I thought I was cool.

Russ 22:13 Right.

Jay Shetty 22:13 It was like I was that kinda person that didn't understand how someone could get depressed-

Russ 22:18 Same

Jay Shetty 22:18 ... because I didn't get it. Like, as a-

Russ 22:20 I was like that four years ago. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 22:21 To- [laughs] it's like, it's so bad. Yeah, and it's like you have that mindset.

Russ 22:25 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 22:25 You're like, "What does that mean," right?

Russ 22:26 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 22:26 Like, and then you go through your own stuff, and you're like, "Oh, I get it now." And I found that for me, I found that life has this really strange way of making you go through things that you thought shouldn't affect anyone.

Russ 22:42 Right.

Jay Shetty 22:43 So if you in your head have an idea of like, "I don't understand that. I don't know how that affects someone," in a-

Russ 22:47 Life's like, "Just wait." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 22:49 Literally, and that is-

Russ 22:49 Hold up. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 22:50 That has happened to me so many times-

Russ 22:52 Yeah

Jay Shetty 22:52 ... where, and so whenever now I have that thought, I literally catch it, and I go, "Let's get rid of that thought," because let me actually try and be curious about it rather than look at it in a condescending way.

Russ 23:02 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 23:02 'Cause chances are if I see it in a derogatory way or a negligent way, I'm gonna have to experience it just for life to teach me that it's real.

Russ 23:10 Yeah, yeah. I got humbled for sure by, um, by that kinda thing where it's like I reali- back to me being omnipotent, I got humbled by realizing, oh, I don't know everything, you know? 'Cause I thought I'm never gonna get depressed. What does that even mean? Like, what's ha- you know, and then all of a sudden you're like, "Okay, so this can happen to me."

Jay Shetty 23:28 Yeah. Describe that for me. What was that for you? Like, I think you hear... And I think I can ask you this because I feel like you articulate your thoughts so well, and you really get in there with what's going on. Like,

Jay Shetty 23:38 ev- so many people have said this, right? This idea of like you get the triple platinum, you get the money, and it doesn't work. Like, what actually, and I'm asking you 'cause I feel like you'll get in there, what is actually not working about that? Like, what is it about that that doesn't help you feel better or solve the void? What is it? Why does it not work? Because I think so many people say that, but then everyone goes, "Oh, yeah, but you're a millionaire. You can say that."

Russ 24:03 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:03 But let's, let's try help people out there because I still f- like, if I, if s- I prefer being financially safe And successful in doing what I love. I do prefer that-

Russ 24:15 Mm

Jay Shetty 24:16 ... to when I was close to being broke and not successful in what I did.

Russ 24:20 Right.

Jay Shetty 24:20 I much prefer my life right now.

Russ 24:23 Right.

Jay Shetty 24:23 But I also know that the thing that gives, gives me deep meaning and keeps me going is my purpose-

Russ 24:28 Mm-hmm

Jay Shetty 24:28 ... that's connected to my work. Like, as long as I feel I'm positively impacting people-

Russ 24:33 Yeah

Jay Shetty 24:33 ... I'm serving people, and I'm using my voice to make a difference in people's lives, that is what actually makes me happy.

Russ 24:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 24:39 And then what happens around it is, like, the best bonus of all time.

Russ 24:42 Yeah. See, that's a good value to have, though. Is, like, in good perspective for me, the plaques and whatever, it not working is really just because you're clearly, or I was clearly seeking validation subconsciously, and I thought that becoming a big artist and plaques and all that was going to make me feel validated and make me feel like I belong and make me feel approved and make me feel good enough. And when I got all that and I still had all of those issues, that's what I mean by it not working. And I agree too, like, I prefer my life now [laughs] than, than the alternative. But the hole is still there, and I think at 17 when I started, like, really going after this, um, I don't know if I had the depth and the awareness to know what I was going after, like I'm chasing approval and validation. But, um, when I look back, I can pinpoint certain behaviors and certain times in the studio, whatever, where I was like, where I can tell I wanted people to validate me.

Jay Shetty 25:48 Mm.

Russ 25:48 And I want... And I thought that rap in the industry was gonna pat me on the back, you know? And that's kinda what I talk about in I Love You Boy, which is like, you know, I just, I replaced my dad with the industry, which is really, like, wild, right? Because I felt like as a kid wanting just approval of your dad as a son, you know, when you don't get it, you can feel, like, ostracized kinda and just like you don't belong and you're not good enough and all these things. And it's so strange that as a white guy, what I chose to pick to replace my dad to give me approval was a craft that I'm not, that I'm ostracizing off, off that. You know what I mean?

Jay Shetty 26:33 Yeah.

Russ 26:33 It's like-

Jay Shetty 26:34 Yeah

Russ 26:34 ... it's like I picked the hardest thing to get approval from.

Jay Shetty 26:38 Mm-hmm.

Russ 26:38 Like, I replaced my dad with an industry and started to rap. I wanted praise and acknowledgement and picked a profession that people who look like me don't get.

Jay Shetty 26:46 Mm.

Russ 26:47 You know what I mean?

Jay Shetty 26:47 Mm-hmm.

Russ 26:47 So it's like, it was almost like, I guess if I could, like, analyze where my head was at when I was 17, maybe 'cause it's like if I could get approval from this thing that I love, this genre, this lifestyle, this whole culture, then I'm officially approved.

Jay Shetty 27:04 Mm.

Russ 27:05 You know?

Jay Shetty 27:05 Mm-hmm.

Russ 27:05 Because I know how hard it is to get approval from that. And I don't know, it just, it, but it really stems from, once again, not having the self-approval and the self-validation and thinking that someone else is gonna give it to you. And I remember talking with my therapist, and he was like, uh, or I think I said like, "Yeah, but you know, if I do get a number one album or a number one, go number one on the Billboard Hot 100 and this person says I'm great, I'm sure, like, I'll feel really good." He's like, "You probably will for about 20 minutes, and then I think you'll have your lowest moment of your life." You know? And I agree.

Jay Shetty 27:41 Mm.

Russ 27:41 You know? Because when I have gotten crazy accomplishments, it lasts for not that long.

Jay Shetty 27:46 Mm.

Russ 27:46 And I'm right back to like, I'm lower-

Jay Shetty 27:49 Mm

Russ 27:49 ... because that's another thing on the list that didn't do it.

Jay Shetty 27:52 Mm.

Russ 27:53 That's another thing that didn't fill the hole.

Jay Shetty 27:55 Mm.

Russ 27:55 You know, Forbes list, nope. Platinum, nope. Buy mom house, nope. P- like, none of it, you know?

Jay Shetty 28:01 I see what you're saying, and I want pe- I want that to register with people because what Russ is doing, which I appreciate, is clarifying the difference. It's great in and of itself.

Russ 28:11 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 28:11 It just doesn't fill the hole inside.

Russ 28:13 No.

Jay Shetty 28:13 Like, it doesn't solve the fact that I don't feel better about who I am and myself. It's beautiful to buy your mom a house.

Russ 28:19 Of course.

Jay Shetty 28:19 That's awesome. Like-

Russ 28:20 Yeah

Jay Shetty 28:20 ... it's good for her. It's great.

Russ 28:22 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 28:22 Like, that, that's not the point. The point is it doesn't change how I feel-

Russ 28:26 Yeah

Jay Shetty 28:26 ... about my level of self-worth-

Russ 28:29 Right

Jay Shetty 28:29 ... and self-esteem.

Russ 28:30 Yeah. The point is, like, if, if I thought that buying my mom a house and making the Forbes list and going platinum was gonna make me feel validated, approved, and like I'm good enough, then that's the mistake.

Jay Shetty 28:41 Yeah, yeah.

Russ 28:41 That's where you're gonna feel emptier than ever 'cause you're gonna do that, and that's not what's gonna do it.

Jay Shetty 28:46 Yeah.

Russ 28:46 You know?

Jay Shetty 28:46 What's really interesting for me listening to you is, so I'm, I'm kind of like where you're at with your parents where I love both my parents and independently and in the same way I have a good relationship with both of them today, and but, but it wasn't always, it wasn't that way externally. And with my dad especially, so my dad didn't validate me or even support me when I was growing up. Like, he would, if he turned up to a swim competition, 'cause I used to swim a lot, when I'd look up at the stands, he'd be reading his newspaper.

Russ 29:18 Wow, yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:19 So, or if I was p- I played rugby for my school, and it was one of my favorite things that I made it onto my school's rugby team. I used to be a lot bigger growing up. And he d- he would never turn up to support me. And so my dad wasn't there, and that was really interesting because at the time it made me just wanna get approval of my friends and, like, be cool and whatever, and that leads you to do all sorts of dumb stuff.

Russ 29:37 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 29:38 But what it ultimately led me to was I got to make my own rules of what success were. So not getting his ver- he never had a version of success for me.

Russ 29:48 Right.

Jay Shetty 29:48 Like, he almost had, didn't have, like, this is what you have to be to be successful.

Russ 29:52 Right.

Jay Shetty 29:53 And so I've always seen it as I just got freedom to define what kind of man-

Russ 29:57 Wow

Jay Shetty 29:57 ... I wanted to be-

Russ 29:59 Yeah

Jay Shetty 29:59 ... because my dad didn't really define what kind of man he cared I would be.

Russ 30:02 Right.

Jay Shetty 30:03 And it's really interesting now 'cause when I look at my relationship with him today, he's more like a friend than he is my dad-

Russ 30:08 Mm

Jay Shetty 30:08 ... because he wasn't really fathering me. And I think where I got really lucky, like this really was, was like ... one of those moments when you feel fortunate, is I projected that lack of fatherhood-

Russ 30:22 Mm

Jay Shetty 30:22 ... fortunately onto the monks.

Russ 30:24 Oh.

Jay Shetty 30:25 So I, like, because that wasn't what I was meant to be, and I wasn't spiritual. And I really look at that as like, I didn't have any positive role, role models in my life. I didn't have any positive male role models in my life, and the monks were positive male role models, and I met them at, when I was 18 years old.

Russ 30:40 Which is so important to have.

Jay Shetty 30:41 So, so important.

Russ 30:42 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:42 And the crazy thing about them is they don't validate you.

Russ 30:45 Wow.

Jay Shetty 30:46 So it was, like, even more challenging, but it's like you see an amazing role model who's showing you the right way-

Russ 30:54 Yeah

Jay Shetty 30:54 ... but is not trying to falsely validate or approve you.

Russ 30:57 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 30:57 So you still have to figure it out. [laughs]

Russ 30:58 You still have to do it yourself.

Jay Shetty 31:00 You still have to do it yourself.

Russ 31:01 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 31:01 They're teaching you what you just said-

Russ 31:03 How, yeah

Jay Shetty 31:03 ... how to do it yourself.

Russ 31:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 31:05 Like, that it's still you on your own. You gotta live in your own mind. And, and when you realize that, it's like, yeah, I live in my own mind.

Russ 31:11 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 31:12 These are my thoughts.

Russ 31:13 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 31:13 What you just said earlier, I either have to, I either am translating my dad's voice-

Russ 31:18 Yeah

Jay Shetty 31:18 ... into becoming my voice-

Russ 31:20 Right

Jay Shetty 31:20 ... or I'm actually gonna choose what I want my thoughts to be.

Russ 31:23 Right.

Jay Shetty 31:24 And, and that's what they were training us in. So through so much fortune, I got to that point.

Russ 31:29 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 31:29 And even till this day, I'm constantly just practicing that, because again, I haven't perfected it. I still get into the place where you start hearing the

Jay Shetty 31:37 noise.

Russ 31:37 It's so funny, 'cause that's why I ended the album with just me singing It Was You All Along.

Jay Shetty 31:41 Mm. Mm.

Russ 31:42 'Cause all these things I'm chasing, validation, love, approval, uh, patience, all of it is things that I have to give myself.

Jay Shetty 31:50 Mm.

Russ 31:50 And I just, I thought that everything and everyone else was gonna give it to me.

Jay Shetty 31:54 Tell me some of the ways you've been giving it to yourself, because you are getting, like you said, like, a lot of people get to the point you've got to when they're unsuccessful.

Russ 32:02 Mm.

Jay Shetty 32:02 So, like, they wait till the record's now not getting the downloads and the streams-

Russ 32:07 Yeah

Jay Shetty 32:07 ... and, like, they're not really winning the stuff and things aren't going well, and then you go, "Oh, this wasn't it." You're realizing it while things are hot, right? Like, things are good. You got a new album dropping. The music sounds great, by the way. I wanted to say, like, I, I, uh, cr- I was thankful that your team sent me the-

Russ 32:20 Of course

Jay Shetty 32:21 ... the album before, and it's like I can't wait to play it more and more, and it, I can't wait for everyone to hear it. Music's awesome. And I just go, "You're winning and you realized it." Like, what are some of the things you're doing to validate yourself?

Russ 32:34 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 32:35 Like, what, what are you doing?

Russ 32:36 [laughs] I mean, like, that's what I'm still working on.

Jay Shetty 32:38 Yeah, yeah.

Russ 32:38 You know?

Jay Shetty 32:38 What are some of the practices, the habits?

Russ 32:40 I think, um, you know, it's having good values is one of them. Uh, values that, like, I can control, you know? Uh, I think honoring the gift is important, celebrating myself, and I think a way that I've celebrated myself, which makes me feel good about myself, is to honor my gift. And so for example, like, going to the gym, for me to lose 30 pounds of fat, not muscle, right? 30 pounds of fat was crazy. Um, I did it through shame. "You need to lose weight." Did, you know, and just talking crazy to myself, and it still worked, but I lost the weight and I still didn't feel good about myself. I still had a breakdown, you know? Um, and so now I'm looking at going to the gym as I'm celebrating my health and my body. I'm honoring the gift of being alive and being mobile.

Jay Shetty 33:28 Mm.

Russ 33:28 You know? And h- uh, celebrating the gift of, of my creativity by going to the studio instead of looking at going to the studio like, "I need to catch a hit, otherwise I'm a loser."

Jay Shetty 33:38 Mm.

Russ 33:38 It's like, "Nah, I'm celebrating myself." Every time I go to the studio, it's a celebration.

Jay Shetty 33:43 That's, that's already a great mindset switch, man.

Russ 33:44 Yeah, it's better than where I was at. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 33:46 No, but it,

Jay Shetty 33:47 it, what, I think what we don't realize is even if critical, judgmental, negative motivation works-

Russ 33:54 Yeah

Jay Shetty 33:54 ... the problem is now that's all you have in your toolkit-

Russ 33:58 Yes

Jay Shetty 33:58 ... to motivate yourself.

Russ 33:59 Right.

Jay Shetty 33:59 So when you've lost the weight you wanted to lose, you're now motivating yourself still through that criticism, judgment, and-

Russ 34:06 Right

Jay Shetty 34:06 ... like, talking down to yourself. And even with the music, I love what you just said. You feel so much more abundant-

Russ 34:12 Yeah

Jay Shetty 34:12 ... when you walk into something and you go, "I'm just here because I'm grateful to be alive. I'm happy to be here." As opposed to, "God, if I don't write the next hit..." And I know so many musicians that say that to me, and in music it's the hardest place.

Russ 34:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 34:25 And I feel like I have so many people in my life that are friends that feel that pressure because, again, like you said, it's the pressure they're hearing from their management-

Russ 34:33 Right

Jay Shetty 34:34 ... their team-

Russ 34:35 Their fans even

Jay Shetty 34:35 ... their fans, potentially.

Russ 34:37 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 34:37 If they're not connected to them, you're gonna become irrelevant.

Russ 34:39 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 34:40 You'll never be as big as so and so.

Russ 34:42 Right.

Jay Shetty 34:42 Didn't you see what they just did? Like, and so if you don't have that healthy dialogue internally... And I do think it is that. For me as well, it's like I spend, I spend so much time alone just to monitor my internal dialogue.

Russ 34:57 Phew, scary. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 34:58 Because it's the only way.

Russ 34:59 That's terrifying.

Jay Shetty 35:00 Because when I'm alone-

Russ 35:01 Yeah

Jay Shetty 35:01 ... I can truly choose and program the thoughts in my mind.

Russ 35:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 35:05 Whereas if I'm constantly surrounded by people and noise, it's natural that it's gonna seep in.

Russ 35:10 Well, sometimes the noise distracts us from looking in, 'cause looking in is scary. That's what I was doing.

Jay Shetty 35:14 I think that's the biggest reason why people don't want to spend time alone.

Russ 35:17 Of course, especially men, because, like, we once again know that, or we have, like, believed that our emotions are irrelevant and ignore them. You know? Be like, just completely avoid feeling anything, and that's what makes you a man. And so I think spending time alone in meditation and doing, like, s- you know, personal work is a very, like, it feels feminine to men. It feels soft. And the, the, like, something interesting that I stumbled on is, like, how strong of a man are you and how brave of a man are you if you're scared to face yourself? And-

Jay Shetty 35:59 Wow.

Russ 36:00 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:00 Yeah, that's the real bravery.

Russ 36:01 Yeah. Sit in a room with yourself. That's, like, that's courageous.

Jay Shetty 36:05 Yeah. I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier, that it's the perfection and positivity issue, that we keep thinking that everything has to be, like, positive and sunny. And when I look inside of myself- I see tons of a dark side and stuff that I don't wanna see, but I also know that that's not me because of how we were trained. The idea that, you know, the concept in all of the monk teachings is that the sun is always shining. It's just often covered by clouds. And so when you look up at the sky, all you see is the clouds. You don't see the sun, and you think, "I am the clouds."

Russ 36:43 Wow.

Jay Shetty 36:43 So when you look at your thoughts, you see the cloudy thoughts and you think, "I'm darkness."

Russ 36:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 36:47 But actually, the sun's always there. It's just you can't see it. And so the light that me and you are, the light that everyone who's listening and watching is, is always there. It's just we're just seeing all the dirt and the clouds and the rain and the, you know... And we then judge it and see it as negative rather than the fact that, hey, wait a minute. I'm just, I'm just gonna find the light, and I understand that sometimes it's gonna be a cloudy day, just like it is outdoors.

Russ 37:10 Yeah. And that's what led me to feeling like a fraud.

Jay Shetty 37:13 That-

Russ 37:13 That, that song's amazing. That's what that is, is because looking at the cloud, thinking you are the cloud. And so then when people give you a compliment, you're like, they're giving you a compliment on you being the sun, and for me, I'm like, "If only you knew I was a cloud." I would look at my shadow self and the parts of me that I'm ashamed of. It would make it impossible for me to receive love and compliments or anything positive. Also tied in with feeling like a fraud was me having to analyze, well, why did my parents getting a divorce actually affect me? Why did the hate coming in actually affect me? 'Cause on surface, it felt so vapid. Like, "Ooh, your parents broke up and people don't like you. Big deal," right? But when I, through therapy and through really growing down, that's when I learned, like, okay, hold on. Since I was a kid, my role and my identity came from being the savior of my family emotionally, you know? And I talk about it on I Love You, Boy, where my dad was very reactive and my mom was, like, fatalistic and, um, I was just the one running around, knocking on everyone's door to make sure, like, everyone was good after a big fight or whatever, you know? 'Cause I was, I was worried, genuinely worried, so the stakes were super high. They felt like life or death. You know, like maybe there was gonna be self-harm or something. And so my identity was tied to saving my family and helping them. So when my parents got divorced, it was the ultimate blow to my identity of being the savior. It wasn't just like, "Your parents broke up, bro. You're 23. Get over it."

Jay Shetty 38:42 Wow.

Russ 38:42 It was like, "Who am I if I, if my parents break up? Who am I if I can't save us?" Right? And then with the hate coming in, I got my self-worth from being approved and liked by everyone. And so when I got hate, and a lot of it, it wasn't just, "You have haters, get over it." It was, "Who am I if people don't like me?"

Jay Shetty 39:03 Mm-hmm.

Russ 39:04 So it ju- that's what threw me for a spin. It was, "I feel like a fraud."

Jay Shetty 39:09 That is so deep. Yeah. The, your identity is based on the roles you played.

Russ 39:14 Right.

Jay Shetty 39:14 And if you can no longer play that role-

Russ 39:16 Who am I?

Jay Shetty 39:16 ... then who is, what is your identity?

Russ 39:18 Right.

Jay Shetty 39:19 And that's where it's hard because that means, going back to what you said earlier, which was really powerful, is that your values is the best place to start because your values is something you can control. If you only value yourself for a role you play for other people, which you don't control-

Russ 39:35 Right

Jay Shetty 39:35 ... now that's not your value.

Russ 39:37 Right.

Jay Shetty 39:37 And when they break up or it goes astray, you don't know who you are anymore. That is-

Russ 39:44 Devastating blow.

Jay Shetty 39:45 Yeah.

Russ 39:46 Yeah. Especially when I didn't know why I was so upset by it, you know? I was like, "This shouldn't be affecting. I'm 24, 25. Like, what's the big deal?"

Jay Shetty 39:54 Yeah.

Russ 39:55 But it just didn't go away, and then it, it was funny that, like, the hate and them divorcing came at the same time. And now when I look back, I'm like, "This was all, like, by design."

Jay Shetty 40:04 Mm.

Russ 40:05 You know? This was all to help me grow down. But yeah, it's like, you know, when you, when you've gotten your identity from a role that you've been playing for so long and that role is taken away from you or threatened, it's like, yeah, who are you?

Jay Shetty 40:19 You've

Jay Shetty 40:20 said that phrase twice just now, growing down, not growing up.

Russ 40:24 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 40:24 What does that mean? Because I like that.

Russ 40:26 I think a lot of times in my career, I was just focused on, like, external growth and, like, am I getting more followers? Am I getting more money? Am I getting more plaques? And am I growing up, you know? And I wasn't focused on growing down into, like, the core of who I am and getting to the, to the root of it and to the truth of myself, and that's what I've been trying to do. That's what this album is, is, like, me growing down, trying to, like, get deeper and deeper into who I actually am, you know? 'Cause I'm just trying to operate from a place of authenticity and truth.

Jay Shetty 41:00 Mm.

Russ 41:00 And it's hard to feel authentic and be authentic when you're operating from a place of shame. Like, I'm ashamed of who I am, and I'm insecure about who I am, so how can I be authentic?

Jay Shetty 41:17 Mm.

Russ 41:17 Because authentic would... Being authentic would mean being insecure and being ash- And it's like-

Jay Shetty 41:22 Yeah

Russ 41:22 ... I can't be that.

Jay Shetty 41:22 Yeah.

Russ 41:23 Especially in rap, you know what I mean?

Jay Shetty 41:24 Yeah.

Russ 41:24 So it's like, gotta mask it, gotta be omnipotent, you know?

Jay Shetty 41:28 What was

Jay Shetty 41:29 the darkest and scariest thing you saw when you started growing down?

Russ 41:33 I think the biggest thing I... The, like, darkest thing and thought I had was, like, I don't like myself. That was, like, the heaviest.

Jay Shetty 41:43 And what was it that you didn't like about yourself?

Russ 41:45 I was ashamed about how I've handled my career. I was very mad about at, at, like, 23-year-old me. I would beat him up daily. Um, I was mad about, you know, me being reactive towards people. I just didn't like anything about, you know, myself, and that was a real low point of, like, once again, fraud. If only the world knew, you know? And I have a self-help book, right? And I mentioned that on Fraud as well. It's like- Who am I, like, to try to give people a book? Like, and for me, the book's so successful and has helped a lot of people, but I look back at that book, I'm like, it's like vapid to me now, you know? And I'm glad it's helping people, but... And I shouldn't, I shouldn't denounce any version of me. That's like I'm- you're watching it in real time what I do. And, um, yeah, that's the, that's the heaviest, darkest thing that I've come to terms with. N- not that it's a reality of mine that I wanna come to terms with, but getting to a place of like, I don't, I don't like myself. That was the lowest point.

Jay Shetty 42:57 I love what you just said, that it's like being authentic means being able to accept that I feel insecure-

Russ 43:05 Right

Jay Shetty 43:05 ... and that that last version of me just got me through that.

Russ 43:10 Right.

Jay Shetty 43:10 And that doesn't make it good or bad, but it was a reality, but we think being authentic means being like smooth and like-

Russ 43:17 Right

Jay Shetty 43:17 ... organized.

Russ 43:18 What I've learned in therapy is the admission of insecurity and feeling nervous is step one, because what happened to me, and I think what happens to a lot of people, is rejecting your insecurities l- leads to self-destruction.

Jay Shetty 43:35 Mm-hmm.

Russ 43:35 So for example, like I used to do interviews super drunk, right? Why? 'Cause I was nervous and insecure about just being my authentic self. I didn't know how to be that version, so I would drink to knock the edge off. So, like the, the rejecting of my insecurity led to self-destructive habits, and overall, a result that I don't like, you know? So yeah, I think just sitting in your insecurities and, and, and, and saying that it's okay to be insecure and feel nervous.

Jay Shetty 44:08 Yeah.

Russ 44:08 And I think for me it's like, nah. Like, especially as men, like nah, I'm not allowed to. Like, we gotta be the man, you know?

Jay Shetty 44:14 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I often like, even when I... If I ever end up, I don't go to many parties or events and things like that, but if I ever have to or I do go for a specific purpose, and it was someone, it was what? It was on the Trevor Noah interview. When Trevor came on the show, he said to me, he goes, "Jay, you always seem really comfortable whenever I see you somewhere." And I was like, "That's because I only really go to places I have a purpose."

Russ 44:36 Mm.

Jay Shetty 44:36 Like I was like, "If I don't have a purpose there," I was like, "If you ever see me uncomfortable, it's because I don't have a purpose then. I don't know what I'm doing there."

Russ 44:42 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 44:43 And I, I had a couple of those last year, which we talked about, it's funny enough. My, my team was like, "Oh, you should definitely go to this event. It's really important and stuff."

Russ 44:50 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 44:50 And so I went along and I just felt really like insecure there and useless-

Russ 44:54 Yeah

Jay Shetty 44:54 ... because I didn't have a role. I didn't have a purpose.

Russ 44:56 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 44:57 I wasn't representing what I believe. I go to r- obviously, I was representing myself, but I mean, I wasn't there to represent anything bigger-

Russ 45:03 Yeah

Jay Shetty 45:04 ... than me showing up. And I found that when I do feel like that, I just go up to one other person that I feel I could connect with and just be like, "Hey, I'm, are you feeling insecure too? 'Cause I am." And it's-

Russ 45:13 That's huge though

Jay Shetty 45:14 ... and it's amazing because everyone's-

Russ 45:15 Yeah

Jay Shetty 45:15 ... feeling insecure.

Russ 45:16 Right, right.

Jay Shetty 45:16 Like especially at like these big events-

Russ 45:19 Yeah

Jay Shetty 45:19 ... that like no one f- there's no one, no matter how cool you think anyone is, there is no one who's at an award show or an event or a party or anything that is feeling anything but insecure.

Russ 45:30 Right.

Jay Shetty 45:30 I've not met them at least.

Russ 45:32 Right.

Jay Shetty 45:32 Like-

Russ 45:32 And doesn't that break the wall down?

Jay Shetty 45:34 Literally, completely.

Russ 45:34 Like as soon as you do that, it's like it goes away. It's the resisting the insecurity that has everyone on edge, and they're looking at you, and you seem to have it all the way toge- together. Meanwhile, you're panicking inside.

Jay Shetty 45:47 Yeah.

Russ 45:47 And now they feel like, "Well, I gotta have it all the way together," and we're all tense and just like acting.

Jay Shetty 45:52 Yeah.

Russ 45:52 And if we could just be like, "Hey, is everyone nervous?"

Jay Shetty 45:54 [laughs]

Russ 45:55 Like it's almost like let's all stand here naked.

Jay Shetty 45:56 [laughs]

Russ 45:57 Like that's what that does emotionally, you know what I mean? It's like, all right cool. Now let's like, now let's continue.

Jay Shetty 46:03 Yeah, yeah. And that happens in our like, you know, it happens in family events. It happens at weddings. It happens at holiday events. Like it happens in normal life. You don't, this isn't just about the entertainment industry. Like it happens everywhere.

Russ 46:14 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:15 And I fully agree with you that it's 'cause we're just resisting, in your, in your words, like resisting that insecurity.

Russ 46:22 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 46:22 What's an insecurity that you were resisting for the longest time? Like what would you say was an insecurity that you've just been holding onto for too long?

Russ 46:29 Not, uh, feeling like I don't belong. That's probably like one of the biggest ones. Being a white guy in rap, in hip-hop, um, with no cosign within the culture to sort of make me feel like I do belong, it was, it was a massive insecurity of mine, and I just came in guns blazing. Like, "I don't need any of y'all. Look, uh," and it's like deep down you wanted everyone, though.

Jay Shetty 46:55 Yeah.

Russ 46:55 You wanted help deep down, you know? But you masked it by, "Well, if I'm not gonna get it, I'll do it myself," and that became like a really big like brand and motto for me, and I don't think people understand that my song Do It Myself and that energy, it was survival. It wasn't like if you have people willing to help, you should tell them no.

Jay Shetty 47:18 Yeah.

Russ 47:18 It was I didn't have help. I wish I did, but I didn't, so I had to do it myself.

Jay Shetty 47:24 Has there anyone who's ever reached out in the industry that you feel has, not cosigned obviously, but like given you a bit of that kind of nurturing, or has it, has it still always been kind of like I'm making my way?

Russ 47:34 I think I've met a lot of great people-

Jay Shetty 47:35 Yeah

Russ 47:35 ... in the industry who have given me validation-

Jay Shetty 47:38 Mm-hmm

Russ 47:38 ... and like, "You're great. You're dope," but like yeah, I mean, I've never been like taken under someone's wing.

Jay Shetty 47:43 Yeah, yeah.

Russ 47:43 You know? It was always just kind of like me and my manager just like going at this thing, you know? And, um, I'm trying to be more proud of my younger self, as much as I want to beat him up for how he like was omnipotent and a maniac. But it's like for what you were going through, you crushed.

Jay Shetty 48:03 Mm.

Russ 48:04 You know? Like I don't know how you did all that. And, and that's what I Love You Boy, that song is about, especially on that third verse where it's like, you know, saying, "You deserve a pat on the back," you know? It's just like I've never given myself a pat on the back.

Jay Shetty 48:17 Mm.

Russ 48:18 And I wanted to take that song to like, as an opportunity to give myself the much needed, you know, pat on the back-

Jay Shetty 48:25 Yeah

Russ 48:25 ... and compassion.

Jay Shetty 48:26 Inspired by that song, if,

Jay Shetty 48:28 if you saw, like if you were- If instead of me, your younger self was sitting in front of you, right?

Russ 48:32 [laughs] This is a therapy exercise right here.

Jay Shetty 48:34 [laughs] If, if your y-

Russ 48:35 This is good

Jay Shetty 48:36 ... instead of me, if your younger self was sitting in front of you right now, like sitting in this seat, what does he need to hear? Not advice, but what does he need to hear?

Russ 48:43 What does he need to hear? He needs to hear that, "You're okay, you're safe, and I got you." That's what he needs to hear.

Jay Shetty 48:53 And what do you think he'd say back?

Russ 48:54 Probably, "I don't need your help."

Jay Shetty 48:56 Mm.

Russ 48:56 Yeah. It's really interesting how, like, what I think all of us need from ourselves is just more compassion and more grace, and the younger version of me needs that so bad, needed that so bad, and I didn't get it. And he didn't know how to receive that help and receive that compassion. Um, and I don't know, if he, you know, if I was talking to him and he rejected the help and compassion, I would just keep trying, 'cause I know that's what he really needs. He, he just wants to feel safe, like he belongs, like it's gonna be okay, like he's allowed to make mistakes, you know? That's the other thing. Once again, being a perfectionist, it's like, it really is, like, hindering when it comes to everything, like accepting help, because once again, help is coded as criticism, as a perfectionist, feeling good about anything you've done because you could have always done better, so you didn't quite nail your standard of perfection.

Jay Shetty 49:53 Mm.

Russ 49:53 And I just think, like, that's what I'm trying to get to now, is b- like, giving myself more grace.

Jay Shetty 49:58 Mm.

Russ 49:59 And I talk about it on Tunnel Vision, where I say, "I want to stop thinking that I got to go through hell to get the credit I desperately need to give to myself." You know, you can just do this an easier way. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 50:10 [laughs] It's also hard being a high performer who gives grace to themselves-

Russ 50:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 50:16 ... because that's the hard part, right? It's like, "I want to perform at the best-"

Russ 50:21 Yeah

Jay Shetty 50:21 ... "but I know I need to be nice to myself, but I can't be too nice, because if I'm too nice to myself, then I can't perform at my best."

Russ 50:27 Right.

Jay Shetty 50:27 And it's like this fight inside of you.

Russ 50:30 Yeah. I think it, it, it comes down to kind of what you were saying earlier, where it's like, if your toolkit is only shame and, like, dark motivation, then you're just gonna use that and it's not sustainable. I think for me, the light motivation is like, you know, I love what I'm doing. You know, when I'm on stage, I love the fans, I love performing, and as long as I did my best, I have to be okay with that.

Jay Shetty 50:53 Yeah.

Russ 50:53 You know? I can say, "Oh, okay, you know, I know I can do better than that, but tonight I did my best." And it's easier said than done. Like, I'm working on that, but I think that's the place to start-

Jay Shetty 51:05 Yeah

Russ 51:05 ... is just knowing, like, did you do your best with the resources that you had? And to think that you were supposed to just be this all-knowing entity-

Jay Shetty 51:13 Yeah

Russ 51:14 ... it's like, that's arrogance, you know? But that's why I would beat myself up a lot, is like, how did you not know, you know? But it's like, you're allowed to not know everything.

Jay Shetty 51:22 That's powerful. Yeah, that's powerful actually, to look back and think, "I wouldn't have done anything better. I'm glad that-"

Russ 51:28 Yeah

Jay Shetty 51:28 ... "I had to just go through that," and-

Russ 51:30 That's who I was back then

Jay Shetty 51:31 ... that's who I was back then.

Russ 51:32 That, those were... Like, I based my decisions in the past off of what I knew back then and what felt true to me back then, what felt authentic, and with the reservoir of knowledge I had back then. That's what I based my decisions off of.

Jay Shetty 51:46 Mm.

Russ 51:46 Obviously now, seven years later, 10 years, whatever it is, I would make different decisions, but it's like, I can't be mad at 23- three-year-old me that he didn't know what 30-year-old me knows.

Jay Shetty 51:58 Yeah, yeah.

Russ 51:59 It's so hard for me to not want to beat him up. Like, "You're such an idiot. All you had to do was, like, read this one book and you would've even been better off," [laughs] you know?

Jay Shetty 52:06 Yeah, yeah.

Russ 52:06 Sometimes it

Russ 52:07 feels like the answer was right there.

Jay Shetty 52:09 But that's what it is, right? Like, we have this habit as humans where we judge ourselves off of one conversation, one event, one performance, one song, one meeting. And what's really interesting thing is about that, is that we then project that onto other people, where we judge them-

Russ 52:28 Yeah

Jay Shetty 52:28 ... on one song, one moment, one interaction, rather than looking at someone as this-

Russ 52:34 Right

Jay Shetty 52:34 ... story of a human. And it's, it's fascinating to me that you would never, ever pick up a book and read one page and judge the whole book. You, no one really does that.

Russ 52:47 [laughs] Right.

Jay Shetty 52:48 You would read some of the book at least.

Russ 52:50 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 52:50 But it's like, with ourselves and with others, we don't see them as a story, we see them as a page.

Russ 52:54 Yeah, that's-

Jay Shetty 52:55 And, right?

Russ 52:56 That's so true.

Jay Shetty 52:57 And you-

Russ 52:57 It's so brutal, though.

Jay Shetty 52:58 It's so brutal.

Russ 52:59 [laughs] It's so brutal. I do it to myself, and I think, I think in the world of social media too, you're not allowed to make mistakes. Your one mistake is the book.

Jay Shetty 53:09 Mm.

Russ 53:09 That just tells me everything I need to know about you and how you treat yourself.

Jay Shetty 53:12 Mm.

Russ 53:13 'Cause I know, like, I tend to be, and this is, like, not a great thing, a very judgmental person, and I justify it by saying, "Relax, I judge myself too." It's like, that's not good though.

Jay Shetty 53:25 Yeah.

Russ 53:25 You know? And it's, but I do what you said. I look at one event and be like-

Jay Shetty 53:30 Yeah

Russ 53:30 ... "You don't deserve anything," because of that one convo or that one tweet or that one...

Jay Shetty 53:34 Yeah, not realizing that at that point, that was where that person was.

Russ 53:38 Right, right.

Jay Shetty 53:38 And, and actually, we open people up to change, including ourselves, when we recognize that our capacity for change can increase.

Russ 53:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 53:47 Right? If you look back at an event, like you're saying, and you're like, "I actually appreciate, that's what I knew then. I, I didn't do something I was proud of, but that's what I knew then."

Russ 53:55 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 53:55 Now that I... I think there's a famous Maya Angelou quote where she says that, "Now that I know better, I do better."

Russ 54:01 Right.

Jay Shetty 54:02 And the idea of if you don't accept that that's possible for you and others-

Russ 54:09 Yeah

Jay Shetty 54:09 ... that's what actually keeps you in prison, because you keep saying, "No, no, no, that's who you are."

Russ 54:15 Right.

Jay Shetty 54:15 "That event 10 years ago is who you are, and that's who you'll ever be."

Russ 54:19 It's so tough. That's so true.

Jay Shetty 54:22 It's tough.

Russ 54:22 But I mean, in social media, you're not allowed to change your mind. That also keeps people, especially celebrities and people in the public eye, like, into this prison, where it's like, "No, no, no, no, no." What you said you believed, what you said 10 days ago, let a- 10 years ago, you better still believe that or you're fake. Like, and it's crazy because you're allowed to change your mind, and not only are you allowed to change your mind, you're supposed to change your mind. You're supposed to now have a new belief system. It's not like, Rick Rubin talked about it with you, and I thought it was so spot on. It's like, if you still like have the same beliefs you did 20 years ago upon learning new things, then you're not growing.

Jay Shetty 55:01 Mm.

Russ 55:01 Like, you know? But I think that's why you gotta like remove yourself from social media and what the world and the mob of the internet, stop trying to reconcile with them. Reconcile with yourself-

Jay Shetty 55:12 Mm

Russ 55:12 ... and give yourself the permission to change your mind.

Jay Shetty 55:14 Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've... What's something you think that you have changed your mind on from, let's say, like maybe 10 years ago, or maybe if you need to go back longer, 20 years ago? Like I'll, I'll share one of mine. Mine was when I was young, I didn't... Because I grew up in this mindset, I believed that people who had money had to do something dodgy to get money.

Russ 55:35 Yes. Oh my God.

Jay Shetty 55:36 'Cause that's the language that I was raised in. Like, we always heard that like, "Oh yeah, but he doesn't pay his taxes" or-

Russ 55:41 Right

Jay Shetty 55:41 ... if I saw a nice car and I'd be like, my family would be like, "Oh yeah, yeah, but they always do that dodgy business on the side." And so in my head, anyone who had money must be doing something wrong to have money, and that, not only did that limit me from appreciating others or admiring or learning from those people, it blocked me from thinking that was good for me and possible for me.

Russ 56:05 Right.

Jay Shetty 56:06 And-

Russ 56:06 'Cause you would've had to do dodgy shit.

Jay Shetty 56:07 'Cause I would've had to do dodgy stuff-

Russ 56:09 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 56:09 ... and I thought I was a good person-

Russ 56:10 Yeah

Jay Shetty 56:10 ... so I don't, I'm not gonna do any-

Russ 56:11 Right

Jay Shetty 56:11 ... I'll never do anything bad, so.

Russ 56:13 So you'll never get money. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 56:13 So you'll never get money. Yeah, exactly.

Russ 56:15 Right, right, right.

Jay Shetty 56:15 And, and then you all of a sudden start realizing where like you need to meet... And this is why I think, this is why I love the podcast, 'cause I wanna show people or show sides of people or let people show sides of themselves where people can go, "Oh, that is possible. I can be

Jay Shetty 56:31 a rapper-

Russ 56:32 Yeah

Jay Shetty 56:32 ... and go to therapy." Like I can-

Russ 56:34 Right, right

Jay Shetty 56:34 ... I can be-

Russ 56:35 Right

Jay Shetty 56:35 ... you know, I can be someone who makes songs about this, this, this, and work on myself. Like that is, there is an and-

Russ 56:42 Yeah

Jay Shetty 56:42 ... as opposed to like this, you know, or-

Russ 56:43 Fine, I ju- Yeah.

Jay Shetty 56:44 Exactly.

Russ 56:45 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 56:45 So for me, that was a big one for me, of recognizing that you could make money with integrity, you could use it in service, you could, it could be used proactively for purpose, and that was a massive limiting belief and, and negative belief I had. What was something for you that you, that you changed your mind on?

Russ 57:02 I think the big thing for me was, um, thinking that I was always right.

Jay Shetty 57:07 Ooh, that's a good one.

Russ 57:08 That's the biggest one for me, because I was operating in this place, once again, of omnipotence, just that I knew everything, everything I did was right, every decision I've ever made was right, because look at my life.

Jay Shetty 57:23 Mm-hmm.

Russ 57:23 Clearly, everything I've ever done was right, and everything I say is right, everything I know. So I got to a place now where I'm so much more curious and I'm so much more humble in the sense of like I'm open to being wrong. Because it's like-

Jay Shetty 57:39 Yeah

Russ 57:39 ... I believe what I believe, but I'm open to changing my mind. I'm open to someone else telling me their beliefs and me being open-minded and curious about it. I'm open to not always being right, and I think that is a much better like starting place.

Jay Shetty 57:52 And that's... It's really interesting, 'cause everything we're saying is basically that paradox of like we were saying, you wanna be ambitious, but you gotta have grace for yourself. You wanna be, you wanna h- know your values, but you wanna be open to learning more and changing them. And it's almost like everything is this, and I think that's where we struggle the most, because whether it was parenting, whether it was school, whether it was our background-

Russ 58:18 Mm

Jay Shetty 58:18 ... we were always told that there was one right answer.

Russ 58:21 Right.

Jay Shetty 58:21 Right? Like you had to get-

Russ 58:22 And it's in the back of the book. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 58:23 And it's in the back... [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.

Russ 58:25 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 58:26 And it's like there's one right answer that everyone has to get to, and if you're one mark off the answer, then it's the wrong answer. And the truth is that life is so variegated. It is so-

Russ 58:35 Yeah

Jay Shetty 58:35 ... gray. It is... As you just said, even when you were talking earlier, you were like, "There are so many layers to this."

Russ 58:40 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 58:40 So it's like one answer is material stuff doesn't make you happy, right? But it's like when you broke down the layers of like, actually, why did my parents' divorce make me unhappy? It's because this is... And so you're like, everything is so layered, but I feel like we haven't... I don't know if our brain,

Jay Shetty 58:55 our brain almost needs, not an app, but our brain needs the ability to be able to understand how everything is so multi-layered.

Russ 59:04 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 59:04 But we're so, it's so much easier to just put someone in a box and, and go, "That's what I'm judging."

Russ 59:09 And just be more flexible.

Jay Shetty 59:10 Yeah.

Russ 59:10 And I think, uh, Atomic Habits talks about like keeping your identity small, and I thought it was so genius. Talks about, you know, there's athletes who their identity is, "I'm an athlete. I'm a point guard." And what happens when you're not playing basketball anymore though? And they have this identity crisis, and sometimes it gets really, you know, severe. And he talks about how like instead of saying, "I'm an athlete," how about saying, "I'm a hard worker who, you know, works well with teams, and da, da, da," and so that you can still get, you can still apply what your strengths are from being an athlete into other aspects of your life after being an athlete is done.

Jay Shetty 59:49 Mm.

Russ 59:50 And I thought that was so powerful because it's so easy to get tied up into, "I'm a rapper," or, "I'm a this," or, "I'm a that," and you start trying to like do things based off of the perception of yourself. And I just think being more flexible, you know, and not being so rigid on who you are and just, you know, be open.

Jay Shetty 1:00:10 What's something that you were very, I guess, inflexible about, unflexible about, and now that you've become more flexible about in your identity?

Russ 1:00:18 I think being a man and being what I thought that means, like being ster- not showing any emotion, not showing like anything is affecting me, um, not receiving help, doing it myself, all these things. Like that, to me, is the most valuable thing that I'm now flexible on, is because I've learned that- There's strength in vulnerability, and there's strength in being honest, and there's strength in collaboration. You know, learning from a positive, uh, male role model who's older than you and just can give you, you know, n- new wisdom, new knowledge. It's like there's strength in collaboration. I think we've talked about it in therapy. There's this documentary that my therapist was talking about, like, and he was talking about how, like, alpha males who lead by dominance via, like, fear are often, like, exiled or killed, and the ones who lead through collaboration and cohesion, like, like, exhibit peace, and, like, people love them. And it's so funny 'cause I think growing up, like, we would idolize those male figures who were the, like, just dominant, you know, and just invoke fear and all these things. And I'm just trying to help myself-

Jay Shetty 1:01:36 Mm

Russ 1:01:36 ... and I'm also trying to help my fans. And then on a real, real specific level, I'm trying to be a lighthouse for young men that can look at me and say, "You know what? I don't have to have it all figured out because he doesn't, and if he's allowed to make mistakes, I'm allowed to make mistakes." I'm trying to get men and people to just be nicer to themselves, have more compassion, have more grace.

Jay Shetty 1:02:01 I love what you were saying about leaders because I feel like there is that perception that leaders have to be stoic and strong and cold.

Russ 1:02:10 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:02:11 And it was really interesting to me because I'm, I'm still close with my monk teachers and, like, they're the kind of people that, like, would come and sit in the back on the floor of a class and listen to a young monk give a talk.

Russ 1:02:22 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:02:23 And that was considered humility, and the strength of a leader was like they weren't enforcing their authority.

Russ 1:02:29 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:02:30 Like, they would always say, like, "A real leader doesn't..." I would always hear them say this, like, "A, a real leader doesn't demand respect, they command it."

Russ 1:02:37 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:02:38 Right? It just-

Russ 1:02:38 Wow

Jay Shetty 1:02:38 ... it's natural for them. They don't have to walk into the room and all eyes on me. They don't have to do something big to gain attention. They actually would come on and put the spotlight on you.

Russ 1:02:48 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:02:48 But it's interesting because that isn't our general belief around leaders. We almost want to be pushed around and moved around to think someone's powerful.

Russ 1:02:59 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:02:59 It's almost like if someone's kind and gracious, you kind of think of them as like a-

Russ 1:03:03 Soft

Jay Shetty 1:03:03 ... a soft and-

Russ 1:03:04 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:03:04 ... a pushover. Yeah.

Russ 1:03:05 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:03:05 Whereas... And so I think there's so much rewiring that almost needs to go on into what is healthy leadership or...

Russ 1:03:11 I know, and I'm not, like, the epitome of-

Jay Shetty 1:03:14 No, no

Russ 1:03:14 ... you know, where-

Jay Shetty 1:03:15 Neither am I

Russ 1:03:15 ... dudes should be looking, but it's like I agree. I think there's a rewiring that has to happen on what it means to be a man.

Jay Shetty 1:03:23 Yeah.

Russ 1:03:23 And I think men need to also stop looking for what it means to be a man from women, and women need to stop even caring what men say when it comes to what does it mean to be a woman.

Jay Shetty 1:03:33 Mm.

Russ 1:03:34 It's y- we don't know each other's experiences, you know? Men need more male collaboration, positive male collaboration, positive role models.

Jay Shetty 1:03:43 And I think it's what you said earlier, like knowing that we're wrong. If we are sitting with someone to learn about them-

Russ 1:03:48 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:03:48 ... to actually go into it going, "I probably don't know-"

Russ 1:03:51 Right

Jay Shetty 1:03:51 "... what you're going through right now-"

Russ 1:03:53 Right

Jay Shetty 1:03:53 "... and I'm probably wrong."

Russ 1:03:55 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:03:55 As opposed to like, "Yeah, I already know. I've, I've got you figured out," like all men are like this or women are like this or, or whatever it may be, which, which is kind of how we live in the world. What...

Jay Shetty 1:04:04 Does anything... Do you sleep well? What keeps you up at night?

Russ 1:04:08 I sleep well now. I got a Oura Ring.

Jay Shetty 1:04:09 Oh, nice.

Russ 1:04:10 Yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:04:10 I like the Oura Ring. Yeah.

Russ 1:04:11 Yeah. I'm a, I don't know, I'm 30 now. I'm trying to, like, be in bed by, you know, midnight. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:04:15 You're living... Dude, you're getting... I'm 30, I'm 36 this year, and I be- I sleep at, like, 9:30 PM, 10:00 PM, man.

Russ 1:04:21 Wow, that's beautiful.

Jay Shetty 1:04:22 Yeah, it's so good.

Russ 1:04:23 I've been going to sleep at, like, 9:50, getting, like, eight hours of sleep. I feel like-

Jay Shetty 1:04:26 It's beautiful, isn't it?

Russ 1:04:27 ... waking up, going on walks. I'm like-

Jay Shetty 1:04:28 [laughs]

Russ 1:04:29 ... "Who am I?" This is crazy.

Jay Shetty 1:04:31 How does it feel to hit, have hit 30 and 31 soon?

Russ 1:04:34 It, like, even SANTIAGO, this feels like my debut album because it just feels like this is a version of myself that has not been shown to the world.

Jay Shetty 1:04:43 Mm.

Russ 1:04:43 And I still feel as young as I ever felt, but I just feel like I know myself more. I'm more comfortable with myself. I'm living in more of my truth and authenticity, and I'm excited. Like, I just feel, I feel blessed to make it out of my 20s alive, you know, without any, like, drug problems or anything 'cause looking back, I'm like, I can see, you know, reasons for numbing the pain, you know? But, um, yeah, I'm excited.

Jay Shetty 1:05:15 I

Jay Shetty 1:05:16 also love the, uh, you know, I was watching you... I've- I'm always following everything you're up to, and I love the way you talk to the fans when you're on stage and when you post from it, but also how you've been encouraging so many young artists to, like, jump on tracks and, like, be a part of the music-

Russ 1:05:30 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:05:30 ... through TikTok and everything else.

Russ 1:05:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:05:31 And, like, I think that's so dope, man, 'cause I, I just... I think there was, I think there was one when you do with Caitlin, right?

Russ 1:05:38 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:05:38 Like, yeah, and it was just like I, I just found that whole approach to be so true to how you came up-

Russ 1:05:44 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:05:44 ... and, and what you do and, like, being able to pass that on. How does that feel to be able to now, like-

Russ 1:05:49 It's, it's, it's incredible

Jay Shetty 1:05:50 ... you know, put people on?

Russ 1:05:50 I feel like I, I've said it before to, like, my friends and, and people, like you don't really feel the power of your platform or the power of your money until you give it away and see how it affects someone who maybe doesn't have that. It sort of, like, snaps you out of it for a second and snaps you into really what you've built. But yeah, I mean, for me, like the, you know, the approach on TikTok and putting Caitlin on the song, it's like it's a no-brainer. Like, and that's where, like, I'm glad I don't have a ego in that sense, in, in that field. It's like if I'm putting up a song and someone is affected by it enough to want to do their own version and people love it and I think it sounds good, why would I not-

Jay Shetty 1:06:28 Mm

Russ 1:06:28 ... just, like, make that a thing?

Jay Shetty 1:06:30 Yeah, yeah.

Russ 1:06:31 Just like this is the entertainment business, and it's like meaning we're in the business of people enjoying what you're doing. This is a cheat code. They've already said that they enjoy it. Just give it to them.

Jay Shetty 1:06:42 [laughs]

Russ 1:06:42 It's like-

Jay Shetty 1:06:43 Yeah

Russ 1:06:43 ... yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:06:44 I thought it was dope. I loved it too.

Russ 1:06:45 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:06:45 Yeah, she's great. Very talented.

Russ 1:06:46 She's incredible.

Jay Shetty 1:06:47 Yeah.

Russ 1:06:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:06:47 Very talented.

Russ 1:06:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:06:48 Where, where... You

Jay Shetty 1:06:49 just mentioned the ego there. Where does the ego still block you sometimes? Where you're like, "That's somewhere where I don't have an ego." Where is somewhere where you-

Russ 1:06:54 I don't have a... How would you describe the ego? It's a great question, 'cause then I could answer it

Jay Shetty 1:06:59 Yeah, yeah. It's a great, it's a great question, and that's why I want to give you a, a very thoughtful answer. I would say that the ego is any moment in which you create a false sense of security.

Russ 1:07:11 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:07:13 So you're creating a false sense of being safe, as opposed to just being like arrogant, blah, blah, blah. That's... Because those are all ultimately, it's a false self-defense mechanism.

Russ 1:07:23 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:07:23 So like, for example, with my wife, it's like if my wife tells me something that I know is blatantly true, my ego will even construct something where I'm like, "Oh yeah, but this happened before and this..." And, and it's like I'm constructing a tru- I'm... What I'm saying is true, it's factual, but I'm still using it just to defend my ego-

Russ 1:07:40 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:07:40 ... 'cause I'm scared of just saying like, you know?

Russ 1:07:42 That you're wrong.

Jay Shetty 1:07:43 Yeah.

Russ 1:07:43 Oh, I do that all the time.

Jay Shetty 1:07:44 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Russ 1:07:44 So that's-

Jay Shetty 1:07:45 So the wrong part's true, but like-

Russ 1:07:46 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:07:46 ... where, where do you create a false sense of safety in your life or a false sense of security?

Russ 1:07:52 I think trying to constantly save my mom emotionally and take on my family's emotions as my responsibility, because without me doing that, they're not safe, is like a really big crux of like my stress, you know? And it's not on them, it's on me. And it's really me not... Like, I'm not allowing my mom to pull herself out of the hole-

Jay Shetty 1:08:30 Mm

Russ 1:08:30 ... unless I go down there with her.

Jay Shetty 1:08:33 Mm.

Russ 1:08:33 But that's really the opposite of empowering. It's like I need to, I need to let go, but letting go is so scary because if I feel like she's drowning, or if I feel like my brother's drowning, or my sister or whoever I love is drowning, and I'm watching them drown, how am I supposed to not go in and save them? But the reality is sometimes they're just flapping their arms and their feet are on the ground.

Jay Shetty 1:08:57 Mm.

Russ 1:08:58 And it just looked like they were drowning.

Jay Shetty 1:09:00 Mm.

Russ 1:09:00 You know? But-

Jay Shetty 1:09:02 Dude, that is a great answer.

Russ 1:09:04 Was it?

Jay Shetty 1:09:04 That is a great answer.

Russ 1:09:05 Okay. [laughs] Cool.

Jay Shetty 1:09:06 No, because you just... There was another definition as, as... When you asked me that question, that came to my mind. It's, and whatever anyone's belief in God is, when I say the word God, it's like God, universe, what- whatever you personally choose.

Russ 1:09:18 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:09:18 But like, the ego is when you choose to play God-

Russ 1:09:22 Mm.

Jay Shetty 1:09:22 ... instead of-

Russ 1:09:23 Wow

Jay Shetty 1:09:23 ... play your part for God.

Russ 1:09:25 Wow.

Jay Shetty 1:09:26 Right?

Russ 1:09:26 Okay, so that was a good answer. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:09:27 And that's why it's, it's a great answer-

Russ 1:09:29 Yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 1:09:29 ... because that is exactly what's happening. It's like you're, you're saying, "It's all on me."

Russ 1:09:34 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:09:35 Like, you're trying to be the universe.

Russ 1:09:36 The, the almighty me.

Jay Shetty 1:09:36 The almighty-

Russ 1:09:37 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:09:37 ... omnipotent. You used the word at the beginning.

Russ 1:09:39 Yeah, yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:09:39 Like, that's a God-like word, right? Like, where you're like, "Everything rests and depends on me."

Russ 1:09:45 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:09:45 Which means if I do it, I'm gonna save it, and if I'm not there, it's gonna fall apart.

Russ 1:09:49 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:09:49 And that's ego, because like you just rightly said, like, not only... You can love someone and let them still grow by themselves and still be there for them, y- but you can't grow for them.

Russ 1:10:00 Right.

Jay Shetty 1:10:00 But when you wanna grow for someone instead of grow with them or help them grow.

Russ 1:10:05 Yeah. And I think that that level of like omnipotence and that level of control also influences, like, lack of confidence.

Jay Shetty 1:10:15 Mm.

Russ 1:10:15 Because by me being like, "Let me handle it," really says, "Oh, so you think that if I handle it," you know, me being my mom, like, "Oh, you think if I handle it and don't let you help me, Russ, that, like, I can't do it?"

Jay Shetty 1:10:28 Mm.

Russ 1:10:29 You know? And I'm just like, "Yeah, kind of." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:10:32 [laughs]

Russ 1:10:33 You know? But I need to... It's just really, it's coming back to that place of my role and my identity. I always played the role of helping and being responsible emotionally for people and, and saving them and fixing things. And so it's just second nature. I get very hypervigilant when I, when someone around me is upset because if you're upset, it's my fault-

Jay Shetty 1:10:56 Mm

Russ 1:10:56 ... is what, is what it gets, like, coded as. And I'm trying to unlearn that, but that's tough.

Jay Shetty 1:11:03 Yeah.

Russ 1:11:03 Because like I said, I feel, um... [lips smack] Or when I was a kid, the stakes seemed so high, it felt like it was life or death if I don't help. What if someone self-harms, et cetera? But now, when someone's upset, I still can't let go and, and still be there for them, but not feel like I have to go down into the hole with them because I'm still operating from that childlike role.

Jay Shetty 1:11:25 Mm.

Russ 1:11:26 You know? And I, and, and I'm just working on understanding that, like, they're okay, they're gonna be okay. Like, you know, no one's saying like, "Cut them off and don't talk to anyone."

Jay Shetty 1:11:34 Yeah. [laughs]

Russ 1:11:34 But it's like, you don't need to go down into the hole with them.

Jay Shetty 1:11:38 Yeah, that's beautiful. And

Jay Shetty 1:11:39 man, the, the album SANTIAGO is inspired by Paulo Coelho's Alchemist-

Russ 1:11:43 Yes

Jay Shetty 1:11:43 ... which is a legendary... If you haven't heard of... I mean, you have to have heard of this book, everyone who's listening. If you haven't, it's a legendary book by a legendary author. When did you first come across the book, and, and why did you feel like you wanted to bring music into the book?

Russ 1:11:56 Um, so Boogie, who's my best friend, put that book in my hand when I was probably 17, 18.

Jay Shetty 1:12:02 I met him last time.

Russ 1:12:03 Did you? Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:12:04 He brought him with you last-

Russ 1:12:05 Oh, beautiful

Jay Shetty 1:12:05 ... yeah, yeah.

Russ 1:12:05 So you-

Jay Shetty 1:12:06 He's such a great dude. Yeah, yeah

Russ 1:12:06 ... he's incredible. So-

Jay Shetty 1:12:07 Yeah

Russ 1:12:08 ... he put, like, that book in my hand and-

Jay Shetty 1:12:09 Pretty sure, yeah

Russ 1:12:10 ... Napoleon Hill in my ha- you know?

Jay Shetty 1:12:12 Yeah.

Russ 1:12:12 And crazy books to read at that age. Um, and I was instantly like... It became like a Bible for me, you know? And there's, there was just so many parallels that I found, and I just... I've, like, opened it back up a, you know, a few times over the years. But for whatever reason, two years ago, summer of 2021, I decided to reread it. And you know how you can, like, read a book that you've already read, but you read it at a different time in your life, and all of a sudden different things stick out, and it resonates deeper? And so it, it just felt, it just spoke to me so deeply than even before. And I was like, "Man, I wanna make a whole album-

Jay Shetty 1:12:50 That's beautiful

Russ 1:12:50 ... that gives like, that parallels the book with my story." But what ended up happening was it was hard for me to just tell my story. And not make an album about The Alchemist

Jay Shetty 1:13:04 Mm.

Russ 1:13:04 And so that's why I ended up saying it was loosely inspired by The Alchemist, because at the inception it was truly, like, it felt like I couldn't write about my life, I had to write about Santiago's.

Jay Shetty 1:13:14 Yeah.

Russ 1:13:14 But then Paulo Coelho says something in, in I think the forward, where he says, "Santiago is my journey, but it's your journey, because one man's journey is everyone's journey."

Jay Shetty 1:13:23 Mm.

Russ 1:13:23 And that was the unlock for me, and the permission for me to, like, tell my story. And there is, like, parallels within The Alchemist and my natural story, but it's not a complete side-by-side thing.

Jay Shetty 1:13:36 Yeah.

Russ 1:13:36 It's just, it was a lighthouse for me, you know? The wind and oasis. It was things that I related to, but I still had my own input on. But yeah, complete framework and lighthouse, and he's a genius.

Jay Shetty 1:13:48 Yeah. Beautiful homage.

Russ 1:13:49 So I sent him the album and-

Jay Shetty 1:13:51 What did he say?

Russ 1:13:52 Yeah, he likes it, so it's like, [laughs] that to me was like, this is insane.

Jay Shetty 1:13:55 That's beautiful, man.

Russ 1:13:56 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:13:56 What a beautiful homage to like, you know-

Russ 1:13:58 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:13:58 ... one of the great writers of our time.

Russ 1:13:59 I was nervous, 'cause I'm like, it was so, so insane. I start making this album summer 2021. He doesn't follow me on Twitter. Randomly, like right when I start to make it, he follows me on Twitter. You know, he follows like 160 people, and I was like, "What are the odds that, like, while I'm making this..." But you know, if you read The Alchemist, the signs and all these things, I'm like, all right.

Jay Shetty 1:14:17 [laughs]

Russ 1:14:17 Clearly I'm supposed to be reading this, or unless he's got the room bugged, like I don't know what's going on. Um, but I-

Jay Shetty 1:14:23 [laughs]

Russ 1:14:23 So I told... Right when he followed me, I told him, I was like, "Yo, I'm actually making an album about, like, loosely inspired by The Alchemist." And he was like, "That's so great. Keep me posted." And he would, like, check in periodically like, "Yo, how's it coming?"

Jay Shetty 1:14:36 I love it.

Russ 1:14:36 And I was like, he doesn't follow me anymore. I don't think it's personal, but-

Jay Shetty 1:14:38 [laughs]

Russ 1:14:39 So [laughs]

Jay Shetty 1:14:41 I love it, I love it. You just, you took Santiago down a different path, but it's like-

Russ 1:14:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Jay Shetty 1:14:45 ... no, no, that's beautiful, man. I love that.

Russ 1:14:47 Yes.

Jay Shetty 1:14:47 I love that. If there's one song... Russ, you've been amazing. This has been such a, it's always great having you here. I've got two questions for you. One is, is there anything I haven't asked you that you want to talk about? 'Cause you're a friend and I, I, I have to honor you with that question. Is there anything we haven't dove into that you're like, "Jay, I want to talk about this," or even if it's quieter and you're like, "It's on my heart right now, I need to say it," the floor is yours.

Russ 1:15:07 No, I think, honestly, I think we touched on everything.

Jay Shetty 1:15:09 Everything.

Russ 1:15:10 Yeah. And I'm really, really happy with how this went. I appreciate you having me, for real.

Jay Shetty 1:15:13 Of course, man.

Russ 1:15:14 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:15:14 I appreciate you. I was looking... You can come back on whenever you want. Like, this is like, it's, it's, I love conversations where they really are just like a back and forth-

Russ 1:15:21 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:15:21 ... and like, that's how I feel with you. I'm just like, we can just talk about stuff and figure stuff out and not know the answer and-

Russ 1:15:28 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:15:29 ... you know? But

Jay Shetty 1:15:30 if there's one, I'm gonna say my one, you can say yours. What is the one track you want everyone to go stream after listening to this episode? Which one would you recommend?

Russ 1:15:38 I Love You Boy.

Jay Shetty 1:15:39 I was gonna say the same one, yeah. I think it's so aligned with today's conversation. But the other ones that I recommend too that we discussed today, Fraud, really powerful. Oasis, highly recommend too as well. And then of course go listen to the whole album. Russ, you've been amazing to have back on.

Russ 1:15:53 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:15:53 I appreciate you so much as a, as a human, as a artist. I, I don't know anyone who's made mental health and music seem that cool as you have, which I love because it's, it's my life's work, but seeing you do it in your way-

Russ 1:16:08 Yeah

Jay Shetty 1:16:08 ... is so empowering, and I think there are a whole group of listeners that are gonna come up and just have different viewpoints because of you, so.

Russ 1:16:15 I hope so, man.

Jay Shetty 1:16:16 Yeah, no.

Russ 1:16:16 Thank you. Thank you.

Jay Shetty 1:16:16 It's happening already. It's happened and it's happening, so.

Russ 1:16:19 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:16:19 But thank you, man, I appreciate you being on On Purpose.

Russ 1:16:21 Thank you. And listen, it's a testament to like, the reason why I always want to come back here is 'cause the energy you have and, like, the barriers down vibe you have where there's no judgment, and the depth you have, it was just such a no-brainer for me to like, I always gotta go back and sit with him because it's just such a like, even the energy in this room is just so curious and, like, safe, you know? So.

Jay Shetty 1:16:45 Thank you for saying that, man.

Russ 1:16:45 That's a testament to you.

Jay Shetty 1:16:46 No, thank you for saying that, man.

Russ 1:16:47 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:16:47 I appreciate it. Anytime.

Russ 1:16:48 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 1:16:48 Anytime. And everyone who's been listening, watching, wherever you are, whether you're walking your dog, whether you're cooking, whether you're driving to and from work, or whether you're at the gym, make sure you tag me and Russ in all your posts on TikTok, on Instagram. Let us know what resonated with you, what stuck out to you on Twitter, on Threads. I love seeing the little clips. I love seeing how you're enjoying the podcast. It means the world to me. I know it'll mean a lot to Russ. And tag us when you're streaming as well. SANTIAGO, it's out right now. Uh, thank you so much everyone. If you loved this episode, you'll love my interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking the power of manifestation.

Speaker 1:17:24 Anybody who hasn't spoken to their parents or their brother, call them right now. Don't think you're gonna have a chance to call them tomorrow or next week. That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life