The Meditation Expert: The KEY To Becoming A More MINDFUL Person

Michael Acton Smith 0:00 Do you remember how stigmatized it was? No one talked about it. Could you imagine telling your boss you were struggling with your mental health? People did have so many misconceptions about meditation. They thought it was either religious or connected to the counterculture, or sit for hours and hours in an uncomfortable position, and we just wanted to let people know that that is not true. You can literally start with one mindful-

Jay Shetty 0:21 Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite you to join this community to hear more interviews that will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All I want you to do is click on the subscribe button. I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments, and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing. It means the world to me.

Michael Acton Smith 0:43 The bestselling author and host.

Speaker 0:44 The number one health and wellness podcast.

Michael Acton Smith 0:46 On Purpose with Jay Shetty.

Jay Shetty 0:50 Hey, everyone. Welcome back to On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every one of you that come back every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed. Thank you so much for tuning in. It means the world to me that our community is growing every single day. It's amazing. So many of you are listening to multiple episodes a week, even more than the new ones that come out, and it honestly, honestly means the world to me. Thank you so much. Today's guest is a very special friend, someone that I've known for five years now, maybe even a bit longer. We've been in each other's orbit for longer than that, for sure. And I can't believe we haven't had this conversation on the podcast before. So please join me in welcoming Michael Acton Smith, the co-founder and co-Executive Chairman of Calm, the leading mental wellness brand with the number one app for sleep, meditation, and relaxation. Calm has grown to over one hundred and fifty million downloads and was Apple's twenty seventeen App of the Year and is the world's first mental health unicorn. Michael is fascinated by neuroscience, flow states, and mental fitness, and is passionate about spreading meditation as a simple but valuable skill around the world. Please welcome to the show my friend and incredible human, Michael Acton Smith. Michael, thank you so much for being here.

Michael Acton Smith 2:05 So happy to be here. Thank you, Jay.

Jay Shetty 2:07 I know. I can't believe it's taken this long, and we were both remembering, I, I think it was probably like seven years ago, six, seven years ago, where you had a lot of your friends and people in your community saying you had to meet me, and I had everyone in my community saying I had to meet you. And then we had a lunch at my first apartment in LA in twenty eighteen, and we were just talking about that, and

Jay Shetty 2:28 it's so wonderful that I feel so grateful to be the Chief Purpose Officer at Calm, and that came from the relationship we built up. And I always say that to people when people see partnerships like this, I always say to people it actually came from just a partnership and a friendship behind the scenes with one person.

Michael Acton Smith 2:46 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 2:46 And it's evolved into this incredible thing. I love the Calm family, and I'm so grateful to be a part of it.

Michael Acton Smith 2:51 Oh, well, the feeling is very mutual. You know, I think building a partnership that has foundations and friendship and years of getting to know each other, I think makes it much, much stronger. So your impact at Calm has been phenomenal. The Daily J is, uh, is just brilliant.

Jay Shetty 3:04 I would honestly say it's the content I'm most proud of that I create because the team that I work with in order to curate and research and build what we do, we have so much fun. I want to give big shout-out to Ben, big shout-out to Chris. Like-

Michael Acton Smith 3:17 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 3:18 We have just s-

Michael Acton Smith 3:18 Great team

Jay Shetty 3:18 ... you, you've developed such a phenomenal team who's so conscious and thoughtful and innovative and creative and not, not scared to push the boundaries, too. And it's an amazing balance to have that, where everyone's so thoughtful, yet so innovative. And I think that that's-- It's been amazing. I was just talking about last year I went to the Calm Retreat. I didn't, I didn't-- I missed this year's, but I went last year. And what I was really moved by is everyone who's part of your team has a Calm story. So for everyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about, I was doing a Q&A with David, the CEO, on stage, and we were doing this Q&A, and people would stand up and ask me questions, but they would share their Calm story. And everyone who worked there had this really emotional, really powerful personal story of how Calm has helped their family or their friends or them. And I was nearly in tears, like, a couple of times because some of those stories were really emotional.

Michael Acton Smith 4:12 It's so meaningful to be in a company where, as you say, everyone has a story, a reason, a purpose for being there. It's so much more than a, a nine-to-five job, and you can feel that and, and obviously you felt that when you came. And when you're surrounded by hundreds of the Calm team, it's very, very special. You were such a, a big hit. You know, a year on, people still talk about it.

Jay Shetty 4:31 Wow.

Michael Acton Smith 4:31 You were doing selfies and chatting-

Jay Shetty 4:33 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 4:33 ... long, long into the night, meeting every single person and, and listening to those stories. So thank you for that.

Jay Shetty 4:38 No, of course. And Michael, I wanna dive in now with you because, you know, what I think what you've done for the world through Calm is truly remarkable. Like, I think it's, it's historic. It, it truly is.

Jay Shetty 4:49 You know, I think it's really interesting because today technology has become the way to serve humanity.

Michael Acton Smith 4:55 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 4:55 And therefore, we don't often think about cultural shifts in the same way because they're through technology. Almost feels a bit robotic or a bit more kind of organized, and so we don't realize just how powerful these things are because we see numbers, but we don't see the deep transformation. But Calm has helped and transformed so many people's lives. When you set out to popularize meditation, did you ever imagine that it would have the impact it has today?

Michael Acton Smith 5:25 No, no. It's, it's been an extraordinary journey. Alex Tew and I set the company up a little over a decade ago, and we were living in Soho. Um, you know Soho, London?

Jay Shetty 5:34 Love Soho.

Michael Acton Smith 5:35 Obviously, it's not the most calm place in the world. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 5:37 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 5:37 It's full of all the best restaurants and bars, incredible energy and, and passion. And, um, we lived in a house, and we'd play video games at, at night, talking about business and ideas. And I remember Alex saying to me he'd heard about this domain name that was available, calm.com. And we pressed pause, and I was like, "Wow, say that again." Calm.com. And I got goosebumps and Just thought what an incredible word, what an incredible brand we could potentially build. We felt that the world, could have been 'cause we lived in SoHo, but we felt the world needed more calm, and it was just getting more anxious, more stress. And so that was the, the starting point. And as I say, it's been a, a one extraordinary journey.

Jay Shetty 6:18 [laughs] How was that available?

Michael Acton Smith 6:20 Well, it wasn't available at GoDaddy for $10, sadly.

Jay Shetty 6:23 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 6:24 Um, it was owned by a, a chap in Sheffield in England, and it was offered to us for about £1 million, I think, and both of us were like, "No, that's a ludicrous amount of money. Uh, we could never afford that." And about a year later, he came back to us. Um, we were able to get it for a much lower amount, still quite expensive. I was gonna use the money to put a deposit down on a house, [laughs] and, uh, we decided to buy a domain name with it in- instead, which my parents thought was a rather strange move. But we just thought there was magic in, in that word, and, uh, we felt Alex had been meditating for, for many, many years. He was, um, a teenager who was very interested in, um, consciousness and meditation and breathwork, and so he was a little more into this than, than I was, and he brought me along. But I felt that we could build almost like the, the Nike of the mind. Could we take mental health, could we take meditation and mindfulness and simplify it, make it more accessible, sprinkle in a little bit of magic and, and joy, and bring it to, to billions of people?

Jay Shetty 7:26 Mm.

Michael Acton Smith 7:26 Because these practices have been around for thousands of years. Pretty much every culture and, and religion has something similar, but it wasn't clicking. It wasn't resonating with society, and there was so much unnecessary suffering. There were so many issues, and, and we felt this could be a very, very powerful area to explore. So that was the, the little acorn that Calm blossomed into.

Jay Shetty 7:50 Yeah. Have you meditated today, Michael? Did you meditate this morning-

Michael Acton Smith 7:53 Do you know what?

Jay Shetty 7:53 Or do you meditate today or?

Michael Acton Smith 7:54 I, I take some days I, I'm not able to, to do the Daily Calm for 10 minutes, and instead I take three mindful breaths before I leave the, the door. So, um, that was what I did this morning.

Jay Shetty 8:05 Yeah. That's beautiful. No, and it's ... I think that's what's really interesting about the way Calm's approached meditation, and I saw this obviously from an outside point of view until we, we joined forces, but when I was observing what Calm was doing, I was really, really admiring it because I felt it took such a broad-minded view to meditation, which I actually think meditation is as a practice. So even though you're saying you've simplified it and made it more accessible, which I agree Calm has, I actually think that is how meditation should be and, and is in reality. When you even look thousands of years ago, it was far more easy and accessible. It wasn't this mystical thing.

Michael Acton Smith 8:41 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 8:42 And it's almost like as things come into the modern world, when they're older, we just kind of put this tag on them as being vintage or mystical or unknown. But the truth is that it was a part of society. It was a part of the way kids were raised and what they were taught at school. And so what even gave you the perspective to say we feel that we're going to take this broad-minded view to meditation? Like, you started with, like, sleep tales and stories, and when I saw that, I was like, "This is genius," because so much meditation, especially of the past in, in my tradition too from my monk time w- is storytelling. Like, so many meditations are based on stories, and I think that the modern day became about, like, being still and being silent and ... But you had this really broad-minded view. How did that evolve, and where did that come from?

Michael Acton Smith 9:30 Yes, so there were two big step changes in the early days where we saw a big, big increase in, in usage and audience. Uh, the first was when we introduced the Daily Calm. You know, Tamara was our first teacher. She, she was just phenomenal.

Jay Shetty 9:44 She's incredible, yeah.

Michael Acton Smith 9:44 She is, she is so good. But before that, we just were encouraging people to, to meditate, listen to the same content every single day. That's hard. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 9:54 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 9:54 People are busy sitting down, and, uh, it, it just wasn't connecting with people. And the beauty of the Daily Calm is that it's different every day, and humans like variety. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 10:04 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 10:05 And they like storytelling, as you say, and Tamara would leave everyone with a beautiful quote. Um, it would be memorable. Uh, people actually started instead of thinking of it as a chore every morning, people would look forward to it. They'd talk about what they learnt in the Daily Calm, and they'd share it in the Daily Calm community, and so these ripples started to, to grow. So that was a, a big early shift. And secondly, the sleep stories. You know, we, um, we were looking at the, the data, and we realized that a lot of people were using Tamara's beautiful voice to fall asleep at night, and we were like, "No, no, no."

Jay Shetty 10:39 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 10:39 "That's not what, [laughs] that's not what you're supposed to do." So we thought, what if we could create stories? We could take the bedtime story that's been around for- [laughs] forever, sprinkle a little magic on it, and create the sleep story. And so people think, oh, they're boring tales. They bore you to sleep. But it's not like that at all. There's a lovely curve of interest where you start in an engaging way. Your mind is probably whirring away with a lot of other things, and you're intrigued about this story. And then we mix in music and sound effects, and the voice gently gets softer. The pacing between the words get longer until before you know it, you're fast asleep. And sleep has been such a big issue. So many people knock themselves out with alcohol or sleeping pills, and this is just a delightful, joyful, simple way of, of drifting off every night. And it, it's now actually the biggest part of the app because meditation, again, is, is not straightforward. Everyone goes to sleep every night, eight billion people.

Jay Shetty 11:34 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 11:34 That's, uh, a pretty big market to, uh, to look after. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 11:37 [laughs] Absolutely. Absolutely, and it's such a important part of our life to solve, right? Like, I think you know the importance of sleep. When was it, when did you find that not only, of course, eight billion people are going to sleep, but when did you find that, like, you looked at the studies on how important sleep is for our health and wellbeing? Like, how early did you kind of realize that was an issue you wanted to solve?

Michael Acton Smith 11:58 So Matthew Walker's book Why We Sleep came out a few years ago, and I think society had a big awakening, ah, excuse the pun-

Jay Shetty 12:05 Yeah. [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 12:06 ... at, at that point around sleep because before then there was this, uh- View in society that, you know, well, I'll sleep when I'm dead. The lack of sleep you got was almost a badge of honor in the workplace, and I think very importantly, that has changed. People get it now. It's not just part of your health and wellness. It- it's a foundation. So we were a little bit before Matthew Walker's book came out. We just felt a, a sense that there was something really, really key here, and, um, and then one

Michael Acton Smith 12:33 of the, the big elevations there was bringing in talent and, and celebrities. For years, we'd been trying to get Hollywood interested in recording some content within Calm. We were knocking on doors, and no one would answer, and, uh, eventually, um, uh, Guy and, and Ashton from Sound Ventures, they were one of our early investors, they introduced us to Matthew McConaughey, and he used Calm for one of his charities in Texas. And we said, "Matthew, would you record a sleep story for us?" And he said, "Sure thing." And, uh-

Jay Shetty 13:01 Great voice. [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 13:02 Oh, he's got such a good voice.

Jay Shetty 13:03 Yeah.

Michael Acton Smith 13:04 Very, very popular.

Jay Shetty 13:04 Yeah.

Michael Acton Smith 13:05 Um, so some of the earliest talent we had on the app, uh, was Anna Acton, my sister, Stephen Fry, Jerome Flynn from Game of Thrones. So, um, the talent coming onto Calm suddenly made this practice and talking about your mental health and meditating and mindfulness, it popularized it. It made it almost cool, and so that really helped the growth, uh, accelerate dramatically.

Jay Shetty 13:30 No, it's fantastic, and, uh, again, I was watching all of that from the sidelines at the time and just thinking how genius it was because to me as well, it was making meditation accessible and relevant, as we've already said, but it was putting it into a language and a voice that people could understand, could relate to, could connect to, could see as entertainment almost.

Michael Acton Smith 13:55 Entertainment is a, a really good example, and it seems strange to talk about this beautiful ancient practice as, as entertainment, and mental health is a very serious subject. But as we know, if you wanna connect with people, if you wanna get their attention, make something joyful, make something entertaining. The, the fastest way to connect with another human being is, is through a smile, and so we thought, could we not take ourselves too seriously? Could we have a little bit of fun with this? And we did, and so several examples over the last few years, you know, we, um, we have a brilliant, uh, person working with our PR team, Peter, who came up with the idea of creating BaaBaa Land around the time of La La Land, the film. And he said, "What if we created a movie eight hours long of sheep grazing in a field?" [laughs]

Jay Shetty 14:40 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 14:41 And it was very calming and peaceful, and we did our premiere with red carpet in London and had sheep walk down, and we got so much publicity and attention for it. People loved it. Then when GDPR came out, do you remember the legislation? Uh, very, very serious and dare I say a little bit boring. We got someone to read it as a sleep story. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 15:00 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 15:00 And we got loads of PR for it, um-

Jay Shetty 15:02 Yeah

Michael Acton Smith 15:02 ... falling asleep to GDPR. So we did a lot of these kind of quirky, unusual little ideas, and that PR, again, made people go, "Wow, maybe I'll check this out. Maybe this isn't so weird and, and woo woo."

Jay Shetty 15:13 Yeah.

Michael Acton Smith 15:14 "And this could be for me."

Jay Shetty 15:15 Yeah, it's j- I mean, I, I, I love it, and it's so genius, but at the same time, like you said, there, there can be the view, and I've definitely talked about this before, like there can be the view that it's like, well, this is such an ancient, sacred practice, and, like, how can you make it so, you know, how can you make it so silly or so one would say silly or clever or genius or, or how can you make it so frivolous? And it's really interesting because that perspective, I think, has, of course, validity, and there's, there's great thought behind that. But I think what I've gained or learned over time is that people starting their journey of meditation, meeting people where they're at, meeting people where they're starting with their struggle, with their challenge, is so much more compassionate and loving and kind than it is to force someone to adopt a practice that they may never adopt or may think is so alien to them that they'd never have a chance. And I've always said that to people, like real... It's not a technique. It's actually compassion and empathy, where it's like, "I understand where you are. I understand that." And

Jay Shetty 16:22 I think about myself in that way, where as a young kid growing up in London, the amount of times I laughed or was making fun of someone trying to get me to meditate when I was younger because it was j- was just bizarre. It's like, I just wanna go and drink and have a good time. Like, I don't wanna think about meditation, but maybe if Calm had been around when I was younger, then it would've been an easy place to start for me, and that would've been the beginning of my journey. And of course, Calm has evolved so much since. But yeah, how have you kind of tackled that opinion? Because I'm sure you've faced that so much.

Michael Acton Smith 16:54 Very much so. In the early days, when we'd go to parties and tell people we were building a, a meditation app, we'd get one of two reactions. One is that they'd back away from us and make any excuse to go and talk to someone else. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 17:04 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 17:05 Um, the second was that they'd be like, "Oh, I've heard of that. I've tried it, but I can't do it, you know. Uh, I'm, my mind is far too, too busy." And it has been extraordinary how that has shifted over the last decade. Again, this is connected to mental health. Do you remember how stigmatized it was? No one talked about it. Could you imagine telling your boss you were struggling with your mental health, uh, years ago? It, it wouldn't have been a, a good move, and, and for most organizations now, that has changed dramatically. I think it was because people did have so many misconceptions about meditation. There were so many myths associated with it. I think they thought it was either religious or connected to the counterculture. They thought they might have to dress up in robes or go to a different country or sit for hours and hours in an uncomfortable position, and we just wanted to let people know that that is not true. You can literally start with one mindful breath. If you don't have time to, to meditate for a minute or 10 or, or longer, uh, literally start with one conscious mindful breath-

Jay Shetty 18:04 Mm

Michael Acton Smith 18:04 ... and then build your practice from there.

Jay Shetty 18:06 Yeah. No, and I, and I think that I'm hoping that, and I mean, we know it from the fact of the amount of people that have taken up to it, and it's been the beginning of their meditation practice and, and just where it's gone from there as well.

Jay Shetty 18:18 But for you, what's it been like? Building the business of it, because that's, you know, obviously it's been over 10 years now, and I'm guessing that it's really interesting when you're building a meditation business, it doesn't mean you're not immune to burnout [laughs] and stress-

Michael Acton Smith 18:32 Very true

Jay Shetty 18:32 ... and pressure. And that includes the team, it includes you, it includes, there's so many things that come up in business that don't help you be mindful, or on the contrary, where mindfulness can really help as well. So talk to us about that balance.

Michael Acton Smith 18:45 Yeah, so Alex and I love business. You know, we love startups, taking crazy ideas and putting them out in- into the world. So this has been such a, a joy to, to work on. But even though we, we practice what we preach and, and we've learnt a, a huge amount from, from Calm and this journey, we're not, uh, immune. And, and during the pandemic, we both really struggled. We were running the company over Zoom. We were on Zoom for 10, 12 hours, sometimes more, every single day. And, uh, we were based in Europe, the team was over in, in the US, so there was time zone challenges as well. And, uh, we just started to feel it. We felt it in our bodies. You know, we weren't moving, uh, around as much. Um, we felt it in our minds. We were just tired and stressed and exhausted. So that was a, a very, very challenging time and, and we're both in a much sharper, more energized place now. But, uh, that was a, a very tricky part of the, the journey. And it was one of the reasons why we both decided to take a new role and bring David in as, as the CEO, who was absolutely brilliant. We bought his company, Ripple. One of the reasons was we wanted to move more into healthcare. You know, healthcare in the US, uh, is a $4 trillion industry, and a very small proportion of that is spent on mental health, and that is changing rapidly. And so Ripple was a healthcare company, so that helped. But we also just wanted to get back, both of us, to, to what we love most, which is the, the zero to one phase, that messy, chaotic, creative, wonderful part where you're building something that, that has never existed in the world before, and we weren't able to do that when we were on Zoom for 12 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 20:25 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 20:25 ... 12 hours a day. We were doing, you know, 2026 financial planning and, uh, feedback with team members, and it, it was, uh, it was not lighting us up. We could do it. We can run hundreds pers- people company, but, um, I think in life you have to focus deeply on what you are really, really good at. So a few sleepless nights before handing over the, the reins to David as CEO, but I, I can honestly say it's been one of the best things I've ever done, and I think Alex feels the same. So we are both now co-chairman, so we're still involved very deeply in a new way. But, um, because we love business and creativity so much, we're now running Calm Studios in London, which is fully connected to Calm, but it's where we can dream up the future. Where is the pup going? What is the future of mental health? And what is the future products and services of Calm? So, uh, that's what we're deeply involved in at the moment.

Jay Shetty 21:15 I mean, that's so exciting, and it's such a beautiful example as well of just how detachment works, even in business.

Michael Acton Smith 21:23 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 21:23 And knowing when it's okay to let go of something to create more space for something else. And it's interesting 'cause you can talk about that, but to do it in a practical sense when you're building, you know, the first mental health unicorn and building one of the biggest mental health and sleep apps in the world, to then go, "Actually, d- we don't wanna work on this part anymore. We have, we believe in it, we care about it, but we actually wanna focus on the future again," I, and that, you know, you've made it sound seamless, but I can imagine that's very challenging because, you know,

Jay Shetty 21:52 I think we get attached to roles, we get attached to titles, we get attached to journeys, and we talked a lot about this when, when I was coming on with you. And, and it was the same for me, where I had a lot of people in my business and my world saying to me like, "Jay, you should start up your own app," and, "Why would you partner with a Calm?" And, "Why would you partner with anyone?" And you know, we had other apps that were reaching out to us. And I saw all of that, I think we talked about this very openly.

Michael Acton Smith 22:16 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 22:16 And I said, "I saw that if I went down that path, it would've been egotistic. I would've done it for my ego, not for what I actually want for the world." And what I saw you doing was so aligned with what I'd wanna do for the world, I was like, "Well, wouldn't I join forces?" Like, isn't that what my meditation practice [laughs] would want me to do? Where collaboration would be better than competition if you're trying to achieve the same goal for society. And so it's really interesting how, for me at least, I'm always looking for how am I still acting out of the same old mindset, even though I've been meditating for years? Am I still pulled by that, or am I able to be self-aware and say, "Okay," and that was, you know, one of the biggest reasons why I came on at Calm because I was like, this is a mission I believe in. Obviously I'm friends with the team. Loved getting to know David now, he's fantastic. And I'm like, "Okay, I wanna work for the world with people that I love and care about, for people that I wanna sh- serve and help, as opposed to live for my ego," and I'm guessing there's a bit of that. And when you go, "Yeah, I'm not gonna be CEO anymore, even though I've built this thing from scratch, but now I'm gonna start again," I'm guessing there's a bit of detachment there. Would you, is that accurate, or-

Michael Acton Smith 23:27 Very

Jay Shetty 23:27 ... how would you put that in your words?

Michael Acton Smith 23:28 Very, very, very accurate, and I think what you're saying is, is about focus as well. We can't do everything in life. You know, you, like us, get asked to do a lot of different things, and you have to, uh, get good at saying no, and know what is the elements that really light you up. What are the areas where you can have the biggest impact? And, uh, and I think focus is so important. For anyone listening wanting to build something new, figure out what that is. And don't be worried if you're not quite sure what that is. Take your time to find it. You know, I use this phrase, um, when you wanna create something new, take a step back. Often if, if you have the chance, not everyone has the luxury, but if you have the chance, go away on your own for a few days. Clear your head. Get into a new space, a new environment. And then marinate yourself in the, the areas that you're intrigued about. And what starts to happen is you start connecting dots that you might not have seen before. You know, watch documentaries related to what you're thinking about, read books and autobiographies, chat to people who are expert in this area, and suddenly the light starts to, to become brighter, and it becomes clearer what you need to do. Now, that often doesn't happen, you know, over a few days. It can take weeks, sometimes years. Every time I've started up a new company or a business, there's been a huge amount of work before day one, uh, just thinking and planning, and then you just have this very strong foundation that you can build your skyscraper on top of. Calm was, was that case. From the very early days, we did a lot of research and a lot of thinking, but our mission was to make the world happier and healthier, and it stayed exactly the same, uh, over this last decade.

Jay Shetty 25:00 You know, I, I love hearing that because... And I love your advice on stepping back, you know, to kind of really understand what you're trying to do, and I love the idea of you saying that it could take years. I, I think the challenge has become that today, because we're living in a world where there's so many successes, and there's so many more success stories in our generation, that people are scared to start because they're scared if it won't be big enough, or it won't be... Like when I started creating content, I wasn't even aware that it could get a million views. Like, I didn't think about that. I was happy with 100 views or 1,000 views at one point because I didn't have a false marker. In the same way with business, like, I don't think most companies that today have a billion-dollar valuation or even billion in revenue, like, they didn't start with knowing that that would be the case. It maybe at one point it became a strategic plan or a focus to get there, but that's not how they felt on day one. And it's almost like not having that pressure was better because then you were able to pivot and shift and change and not stayed so tied. And I think today we're-- I mean, Calm was always meant to be a meditation app, I guess, and now it's so much more. It's a sleep app. It's got, you know, like you were just saying now, like there's now the Daily Move, right? There's so much more happening on the app that's not meditation, and that comes from being open and curious and... So

Jay Shetty 26:21 how do you encourage people? Because I think there's so many people listening right now, and they may be like, "Michael, I want to start the next app," or, "Jay, I want to start the next podcast," or, "I want to build this." Like, you've given some really great insight, but I personally feel there's too much pressure for what you build to be big-

Michael Acton Smith 26:35 Yes

Jay Shetty 26:35 ... and that's actually what ruins it.

Michael Acton Smith 26:37 Yes. Very, very good point. So we live in this culture where it just looks like there's overnight successes everywhere. We're surrounded by people who are, who are smashing it, and the reality is every one of those people have been on a journey, and they've spent a long time getting to that point. So first of all, do the deep work, as I just mentioned. Do your research. There's no shortcuts. And then patience is incredibly important. Accept and understand that you're going on a journey, and you're not going to [laughs] crack it and be on front of magazines, you know, in the first week or year, maybe not even in the first decade. But if you believe deeply in what you're doing, if it, you know, is, is deeply ingrained and you've done that, that foundation work, then you'll put one foot in front of the other, and, and you'll get there eventually. And it's often said that compounding is the eighth wonder of the world-

Jay Shetty 27:29 Mm

Michael Acton Smith 27:29 ... in financial terms. It's true in self-development and building a business and, and growing ourselves. It doesn't happen overnight, and so being aware of that and being ready for that, uh, long journey I think is very, very important.

Jay Shetty 27:44 Yeah, and I think that time that it takes to, to master something so that it becomes world worthy almost to s- to speak, it's almost like a law of the universe that when you've put in that much time and energy and effort and diligence, it's likely to succeed, but it's just that the patience that it takes to put in that 10 years of mastery or whatever it may be for a different skill, like you just kept saying, there's no shortcuts. There's no easy way through that.

Michael Acton Smith 28:13 And I think one of the other challenges is people will see success around them and hear about a story or a type of business and then go and build it. Like a good example is there are now thousands and thousands of meditation and mindfulness and, and sleep apps, and Headspace and Calm and a handful of others were, were there first. The problem is, if you're building something because you're seeing it everywhere in society, you're gonna be too late. You know, I often talk about the analogy of, of surfing, when you're trying to catch that wave. [laughs] If you're hearing about something in society, the wave has already broken, and those surfers are, are far off into the sunset. That's why you've got to do that work upfront and figure out which wave is building, uh, in the distance, what's coming closer and closer. You also don't want to be too early because-

Jay Shetty 28:57 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 28:57 ... you'll freeze to death before the sun comes up and before that d- wave ever gets to you. So timing is so crucial. But when you catch that wave, when you're ready, it's an extraordinary thing. And then as I say, the compounding takes place. And we were very fortunate with our timing, and it was tricky in the early days because, as I say, no one was really talking about mental health or-

Jay Shetty 29:17 Mm

Michael Acton Smith 29:17 ... or mindfulness. It took about half a decade, uh, before we were able to raise our Series A investment. But again, we had that very deep conviction that this was eventually gonna happen. We just needed that patience, and, uh, we were building day by day, step by step, and then, uh, then whoosh. Uh, it's been holding onto the rocket ship ever since.

Jay Shetty 29:37 [laughs]

Jay Shetty 29:38 So would you say that that process-- Because I love what you're saying there, and I think it, it reminds me of something that Rick Rubin was saying when he was here, and, you know, he was, he was talking about from a music point of view, but creating art. And, and even with you, I, you are a, you're a great businessperson, and, you know, that's such a-- You've, you've built companies before this as well. Like, you have a successful track record. But at the same time, whenever I talk to you, and this is, I think, why we get along as well, is because you're, you're an artist at heart, and, and you're a creative at heart, I feel, at least. And- What I'm hearing is that there's, it's almost like you have to be so, like when you talk about surfing, I'm, I'm terrible at surfing. I've only tried it once, but-

Michael Acton Smith 30:15 Me too, by the way. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 30:16 Yeah. Yeah. I was, I was gonna ask you. I was like, you sound like a pro right now. But when you think about surfing and you think about it, it's being so aligned with nature and being so aware, and you're so present and conscious about the air and the wind and the wave. And as, as you're describing it, it's almost like you've gotta be so in tune to really know when to catch that wave. You're almost talking about it as if it's an intuitive art. Like there's some ... Can you expand on that for us? Because that's really beautiful, and I think we almost talk about it through all the externals, like where's the industry going and where's this, and that does work for sure, but I think what you are saying is actually far more of an artist conversation, isn't it?

Michael Acton Smith 30:56 Yeah. So surfing is a, a very mindful activity. You know, you're out there in nature, and balance is important, so, so many different connections with, with meditation and, and mindfulness. And I feel that analog works with, with business as well. You can analyze stuff until you're blue in the face and look at every chart and projection, [laughs] and, uh, sometimes you just have to step back and, and feel into it. What's the intuition? What is your gut instinct telling you about this opportunity? I listen very carefully to my mind and my body at 4:00 AM [laughs] in the morning. That's a great signal when I'm waking up, and it, and it alerts me to opportunity and trouble as well. I've built many businesses that haven't worked, and even though I may have been winning awards and, uh, being written about positively in the press, I'll wake up every night at, at 4:00 AM [laughs] and my body will be saying, "Uh-uh, this isn't working. Listen to me." [laughs]

Jay Shetty 31:50 Mm.

Michael Acton Smith 31:51 And I, you can ignore that voice for, for only so long. So I think business is this just beautiful mix of data and, uh, analysis. Very, very important, but when you combine it with magic and creativity and intuition, the center of that Venn diagram I think is where the, the, the biggest, most exciting opportunities are built.

Jay Shetty 32:09 Yeah.

Jay Shetty 32:10 What are some of the learnings that are coming out of Calm Studios? I'm fascinated now.

Michael Acton Smith 32:13 Calm Studios. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 32:13 As soon as you mentioned that, I was like, "Oh, that's amazing. I wanna know what's happening there." Like yeah, what are some of the key learnings or the key kind of curiosities that have already stemmed from that work?

Michael Acton Smith 32:22 Well, next time you're in Soho you must come and visit.

Jay Shetty 32:25 I have to. I, yeah, I have to.

Michael Acton Smith 32:26 And it's a tiny space. You wouldn't think this is, you know, Calm. Yeah, there's-

Jay Shetty 32:30 That's the best though.

Michael Acton Smith 32:30 [laughs] It's very scrappy. Uh, we're a barely a one-pizza team. There's Sam and Ennis and Steve and me and Alex, and, uh, we're just having an absolute blast. So we, we've been thinking very carefully, as I say, about this marinating process and thinking deeply. We've been exploring a lot of different ideas. Uh, psychedelics is such a fascinating area, and I think we could talk about that for hours and hours. I won't. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 32:55 No, we can. [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 32:56 But, um, but you know, that, uh, that could, um, hold a huge amount of promise for how we treat and support people with mental health.

Jay Shetty 33:04 Mm.

Michael Acton Smith 33:04 You know, there's still a lot of research and science that needs to take place, but there's very early positive signs. So we explored the idea could Calm step in and, and, uh, work here, and I think that may be something for the future. We've looked at going offline. Calm has 100 million downloads, but not that much presence in the physical world, and there's nothing quite like looking in someone's eyes or being in the same space with them. So how can Calm show up there? Could it be physical products? Could it be events and parties and, uh, creating communities, uh, around the world in, in different cities? Could it be a resort one day? You know, the most relaxing, calm resort in, in the world. So we've explored that a little bit, but where we've kind of settled and where we're going deep at the moment is an area that has really caught the attention over the last year, uh, which is artificial intelligence. Now, obviously AI has been around for decades. You know, we've, we've had the, the deep learning revolution over a, a, a decade ago. ChatGPT caught the attention, uh, last December, so everyone's buzzing about it now, but we've been thinking about this for, for quite a bit, uh, longer and asking the question, how can these incredibly powerful silicon brains support our beautiful and fragile human brains? How can AI help humanity? So many, many different ways, uh, we're, we're tackling that. Could AI be an amplifier and augment mental health professionals? Could it help onboard patients? Could it provide support 24/7 when you're not with a human therapist? The average time it takes to see a therapist in, in the US is about six or seven weeks. When you need support, that's way too long. Um, so could there be an intermediate step? And if you think of mental health as falling on a spectrum, apps like Calm are fantastic at the, the healthier end, um, but as you move into the sort of amber and orange and, and middle end, uh, therapy becomes more valuable. But there's a big gap between an app like Calm, which is very proactive, and seeing a human therapist. Could AI play a role in that center point? Um, so there's many different, uh, paths we're exploring there. I'm very curious to know what your thoughts are of, of AI 'cause I imagine you've had many-

Jay Shetty 35:19 Yeah

Michael Acton Smith 35:19 ... many conversations on this.

Jay Shetty 35:21 I think we have a similar approach to things where I try not to get lost in the kind of negative news that stems around any new discovery because I think we kind of do it constantly, and sometimes I find we make it harder to find usefulness and solutions through new technology that's happening anyway, as opposed to we get so distracted by like, "Well, these are the issues and this is what's going wrong, and this is where it's gonna destroy humanity," et cetera. And, and I think that those kind of headlines kind of steal the show-

Michael Acton Smith 35:57 Mm

Jay Shetty 35:57 ... and they distract us from saying, "Well, actually, this is happening anyway, whether you like it or not. It already exists." How can we now make sure that as humans we are benefited by it, and that it helps us and supports us by analyzing the potential challenges and coming up with solutions rather than going, "Oh, God." It's, it's the same thing we did with the internet. I'm sure it was the same thing that was done with TVs back in the day. It was the same thing we did with social media. And it's kind of tiring 'cause we're kind of still having those same conversations when I'm like, "Look, no one's gonna stop using social media. No one's gonna stop using their phones. Let's stop talking about that as the ultimate solution to helping people with this." And the same with AI. People are using ChatGPT already, and like you said, AI's been around. So I think when I think about AI, I personally think about it in a similar way to you saying. So I've always wanted the idea of people to have a coach in their pocket.

Michael Acton Smith 36:52 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 36:52 So if people were able to get not only reminders, which is what our phones do already, but they're reminders that you have to put in. But I've always had this feeling of like if your body could notify your coach of what you need without you knowing it, and then your coach could then prescribe you whether it's content, food recommendations, diet recommendations, supplement recommendations, it would make it so much more seamless and easy because I think for so many of us, we don't actually know how we feel. And unless you're looking at data, and unless you're looking at what's actually happening in the body. So to give you an example, for me, a couple of years ago, I was feeling fatigue and low energy, and I couldn't figure it out because I thought I was sleeping well, I thought I was eating well, and I thought I was working out. So I was doing all the right stuff, and it was only when I got my vitamin D levels checked where I realized that my vitamin D level was at a 10. Supposedly healthy is around 60, and like great is like 100, and I'm at 10, and I'm living my current level of lifestyle just two, three years ago. And without that piece of data, I wouldn't have known what the problem was, and I would have diagnosed the problem as, "Well, maybe there's something going wrong up here. Maybe I'm not working out enough. Maybe I'm not eating enough greens." Like, you just make stuff up. And so I think a data-level approach that AI could help measure but then AI could help find solutions for, to me is very exciting because I think when humans are left to diagnose their own issues, I think we cause more issues and cause more stress. And stressing about stress is, we both know, is not healthy. So I love the gaps that AI can fill. So I've been testing a NutriSense glucose monitor just because I've been fascinated by glucose levels and how keeping steady glucose levels is healthier for us. And so I had the monitor in me for a couple of weeks. I'm gonna put the new one in soon. And while I was testing it, I could see where if I ate, like, and I was eating... I was back in London, so I was back for my sister's wedding in London. I literally got back two days ago. And when I'm back in London, I'm eating much unhealthier than when I'm in LA. And I still went out and find, found a no sugar cereal, gluten-free, whatever. I was trying to be really healthy. And I had it, and it still spiked my glucose into the bad levels. And I was thinking I would never have known that because eating it, I felt fine. And so I think if AI could help us monitor, measure, and then navigate solutions, which includes meditations, but includes, uh, sleep monitors, whatever it may be, I th- I think it's incredible what could happen, especially to make it affordable.

Michael Acton Smith 39:21 Yes.

Jay Shetty 39:21 And that's what I get excited about, is making it affordable, which Calm has always been at the forefront of that, like making things affordable and accessible.

Michael Acton Smith 39:27 Well, I love

Michael Acton Smith 39:28 what you're saying because it's, it's very similar [laughs] to what we're thinking at, at Calm Studios. You know, one of the questions we've asked ourselves is could we build the world's greatest health coach? What would that be? And as you say, you know, having a human coach is the best, the gold standard, but that is not cheap and, and not widely distributed. So having a coach in your pocket 24/7 that you can chat to whenever you want, nudging you, motivating you, inspiring you. And here's the interesting thing, the AI will get to know you better than yourself. It will see your HealthKit data. It will ask how you're feeling every day, and then start making fascinating inferences and, and connections and surprising you on a, on a day-to-day basis. So, you know, I think it was Socrates that said many, [laughs] many years ago, "Know thyself." And AI can help you really know yourself. But that's only one part of the puzzle, and I think one of the problems with AI at the moment is it's very logic driven. One of the foundation models we've been so impressed with is what Inflection have built, Pi. I don't know if you've had a chance to check out Pi.

Jay Shetty 40:28 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael Acton Smith 40:29 It's beautiful. If, if GPT-4 is IQ, Pi is more EQ.

Jay Shetty 40:32 Mm.

Michael Acton Smith 40:33 It's, uh, it's like chatting to a really thoughtful friend. It asks you questions. It keeps the conversation flowing. It's very compassionate and empathetic, and that's the essence that we want to capture with what we're doing. And the other thing to say here is that interface is so crucial. You know, GPT-3 was released I think in about 2020, but it didn't capture the imagination. It was only when the wrapper of chat came about that people suddenly were able to, to connect with it, uh, and talk about it and make it more accessible and simple, kind of like we did with, with meditation back in the day. So we're asking ourselves, having a great AI health coach is one step, but what do we build around it?

Jay Shetty 41:10 Mm.

Michael Acton Smith 41:11 Could we create something that is set in a universe with a vast array of characters? Could there be storytelling? Could there be music and, and magic? Could we add a gamified element? You know, look at Duolingo and what they've done, uh, to make learning a language fun and joyful. And as we said at the beginning, if you can make anything fun a- and entertaining, that's how you cut through the noise and, and get people to pay attention. So I think that's one of the big shifts we're thinking about at Calm Studios and, and we think for this next evolution of, of Calm. Because 100 million downloads is great, but there are eight billion people in the world. There's a lot more people we wanna connect with and reach.

Jay Shetty 41:48 These are the kind of conversations that I love too, because [laughs] because it's, it's so exciting trying to figure out. And, and by the way, I wa- I wanna remind everyone that, look, you know, Michael said it earlier too, if

Jay Shetty 41:58 you can get a physical coach, if you can get out in nature, if you can get out there and, you know, play pickleball, which I'm doing a lot of right now. Like, whatever it is, like, those things are never, ever not going to help, right? Being outdoors in nature, like listening to nature sounds for real. But like Calm, you know, I, I use nature sounds on Calm all the time. I'm not always in a space where I can access [laughs] nature sounds. Like, I can't always be in a rainforest or ever. And, and being able to have it digitally is helpful. And I think that's what we're saying here, where it's like, if you can do things physically, of course, do them. Don't, don't stop doing them. Like, it's important to talk to a real friend. It's important to talk to a real human. But for everyone who's struggling or those things are not immediately accessible, that's where I think why we've seen such a rise in the digital world, because we are looking for alternatives, and we are looking for support. And I've definitely found that the collective approach of, of data and human has been really powerful for me personally. Like, I've found in my own personal mental health journey, I still need to talk to my best friend three times a week, which I don't stop doing, but at the same time, I do need to measure the quality of my sleep, my glucose, my vitamin D levels, whatever it may be, because they're equally affecting how I feel on a daily basis.

Michael Acton Smith 43:19 Yeah. No, that's, that's well put. I think, I think the key is awareness and understanding, and this is what developing a, a mindfulness practice does. Attention is the most valuable [laughs] resource in the 21st century, but our attention is dragged in so many different directions. It's so easy to go through life like a, a marionette on, on the, the strings of the, the puppet master, not being consciously aware of what's going on. But if you can catch yourself, if you can build a, a practice and know where your attention is going, you can put it where you want. So you can spend time in the digital world and on social media and watching Netflix and all these things that, that do bring value to our life, but you catch yourself and don't overdo them and suddenly find yourself three hours later after using TikTok. And so I think having that sense of, of control, knowing what's going on in your mind, knowing where you're consciously putting your attention and how you're feeling and striking that right balance is, is a superpower in our modern society.

Jay Shetty 44:17 Yeah, and I think what we're trying to do here, which I think is key, is trying to create alternatives for viewers or listeners on the platform that we're on anyway.

Michael Acton Smith 44:26 Yes.

Jay Shetty 44:26 Like, often, like, people will always often ask me, "Well, Jay, you're making social media content." And I'm saying, "Yes, because we're gonna be on social media anyway, so why not give people another option to have something that hopefully is educational, entertaining, and insightful that can benefit their life?" And so same way as you're saying, I love the idea of looking at, you know, I mean, AI is already able to, but especially with the EQ version you're saying there with Pi, like, AI's able to write movie scripts and TV show scripts and conversation scripts, and it's gonna be able to ... It is already able to, but going to be able to do so many things in an entertaining way to find a way that people can almost go on a unique journey that was tailored-made for them. Like, I always get asked when I coach clients, everyone's like, "So what's your program?" And I'm like, "The program's unique for every client because you can't take everyone on the same program." The fact that you could have a tailor-made unique program for you and visuals and universes and experiences could be created is quite crazy and phenomenal to think about. Like, right now we're just used to Suggested for You.

Michael Acton Smith 45:33 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 45:33 But imagine Suggested for You in the metaverse and suggested for you landscapes, places to visit, people to know. It's quite remarkable to think how, how personalized it could get.

Michael Acton Smith 45:45 Yeah. We think it's, it's gonna be very, very exciting combining all these things to- together. So yeah, we're having a lot of fun at, at Calm Studios.

Jay Shetty 45:53 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 45:53 And I just

Michael Acton Smith 45:54 wanna jump back-

Jay Shetty 45:54 Yeah, please

Michael Acton Smith 45:54 ... to something you said on, on social media, because social media gets a, a really bad rap in our society, and there's a lot of people that are very stressed about it, and it does cause a lot of, uh, anxiety and polarization in society. But there's a lot of joy in social media a- as well, again, when you, when you take to it consciously. You know, I've met some wonderful friends through social media. Incredible business opportunities have, have flowed from it. It can be really joyful and, and entertaining. But again, it's about using it for you instead of against you, being very aware of how you're using it, dipping in and out. Um, if you're on social media mindlessly scrolling late at night before you go to bed, that's, that's not ideal. If you dip in and out every now and then, that, I think, is a, a much more powerful way of doing it. And you can apply this to most things in life. You know, stop, pause, take a deep breath, and think, "Is this helping me? Is this serving me?" And, uh, that fraction of a, a second can completely transform and, and change a life.

Jay Shetty 46:55 I guess that's it though, Michael. Like, you've just hit the nail on the head there, and that is the ultimate human skill of being conscious. It's almost like being selective about where you are, why you're there, and how you want to interact with this person, app, technology, space. But being conscious seems to be the ultimate lesson because like you just said, that doesn't just apply to social media, it applies to everything. How do we help people develop that? Because that's, that's how I feel like I ... You know, I often talk about it with people as well, this idea that envy has always existed. Social media's just amplified it.

Michael Acton Smith 47:37 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 47:38 Ego has always existed. Social media's just put a magnifying glass on it. The desire for competition and-

Michael Acton Smith 47:45 Status and yep

Jay Shetty 47:46 ... status and all of these pursuits that we have, they've always been there. Like, I remember at school it was what s- what trainer you wore to school or sneaker you wore to school made you the cool kid. Now you just post your latest sneakers on Instagram. It's the same thing. And so it's just amplified it, and it's exposed you to far more m- people's trainers, right? Like, the idea that back in the day if there were 20 kids in the class, and there's 20 kids in the playground, you know, I had Hi-Tecs on 'cause my parents didn't buy me Nikes. And then so it was like I had Hi-Tecs, that person had Adidas or Adidas, that person had Nike or Nikes, and, and that was the competition. Whereas now you can see three million kids' shoes, and now you feel 2 million in '19, seven on the list, as opposed to 23rd. And so the exposure's gone high, the scale has increased, but the problem has still remained the same, that we don't know who we are, we don't know where our self-worth and our confidence comes from, and we're not conscious about our choices. Like, that is the root, at least in my op- opinion. How have you thought about answering that question for people? Because that is the real problem.

Michael Acton Smith 48:56 It's the fundamental question, isn't it? And it, it's what we're trying to achieve through Calm. It's wh- it's what you're doing with your work. You know, Sam Harris talks about it as waking up. Um, it is becoming more aware and more conscious, so developing a, a mindfulness practice helps. You know, one of the things that, that I think has been very useful from doing it is this idea in life of responding instead of reacting to stimulus. Stuff happens constantly throughout the, the day, and if you, instead of from the amygdala, reacting, someone cuts you up in traffic and you honk your horn and suddenly you're miserable and angry all day. If you pause for a fraction of a second and think more thoughtfully and respond, it, it changes everything. You can still get angry and honk your horn, but you're a lot [laughs] you're more aware you're doing it.

Jay Shetty 49:43 Yeah.

Michael Acton Smith 49:43 I think this is really important in interpersonal relationships as well. So many triggers and, and little things that can cause arguments and, and stress with our partner, but I think pausing and thinking before responding is so, so valuable.

Jay Shetty 49:57 Mm.

Michael Acton Smith 49:57 So that's, that's one step. But there isn't an easy answer.

Jay Shetty 50:01 Yeah.

Michael Acton Smith 50:01 Human beings are complex things, and even though we know what we should do-

Jay Shetty 50:06 Yeah

Michael Acton Smith 50:06 ... even though everyone loves the idea of being more mindful and meditating, one of the challenges, very few people sit down and do it and build it into a, a healthy habit, uh, every single day. And so this is why what we're doing at Calm is a, is a lifelong journey, you know, decades of work ahead of us.

Jay Shetty 50:24 I agree with you, and I think it's also just, I really would love for everyone to step back and look at their decisions and choices thus far in life and ask themselves why they chose those things, and what was their value behind that choice.

Michael Acton Smith 50:45 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 50:45 And almost kind of go backwards as far as you can and figure out what made you do something. And most people will track it back to parents, society, or hopefully some of the things will be things that they really value. And it's almost like how can you edit everything to be living your life based on what you really value so that there's as little noise and as little distraction from the outside world, or force, as you're saying, responding to something's happening, as opposed to this is who I want to be-

Michael Acton Smith 51:16 Yeah

Jay Shetty 51:17 ... and this is how I want to live my life. And that's not an easy practice, and I'm not saying that that will solve everyone's problems. But I know that we've,

Jay Shetty 51:26 you've talked about Calm in, in healthcare, which I fully agree with, and I love that direction. I was really passionate about that happening. How hard has it been to talk about Calm in schools or Calm for kids or where's that conversation? Because I know that that's something we've talked about before, and I think we'd both be passionate about it. How hard is that to make happen?

Michael Acton Smith 51:43 Well, again, that's a, a long journey, but it's, it's shifted a lot in the last decade. I remember some of the early conversations we had where we wanted to bring Calm into schools. We got quite a bit of pushback. I think, again, people thought this was a bit weird and, and religious, and teachers have been opening up to it, and in, it is now in, you know, thousands of schools around the world start their day with, with silence or, or short meditations, which is so valuable. You know, I, I use this quote a lot, but if you want to change the world, as we do at Calm, start with the youngest generation. And the Dalai Lama said, "If we could teach meditation to every seven-year-old in the world, we could eradicate violence in a generation." Pretty profound and not easy to do. [laughs] So, um, that is shifting. The problem is kids are not particularly excited about meditation-

Jay Shetty 52:32 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 52:33 ... and mindfulness. They've got a lot of, lot of other exciting things going on. So you have to, as you were saying earlier, bring it to them and shape it in a way that, uh, resonates with them, and often entertainment can do that. So we just did a, a wonderful partnership with Disney, and so Disney Princess is helping kids, uh, fall asleep and, and learn about meditation. We've worked with Peppa Pig and Moshi Monsters and a whole bunch of others. So that's been a very powerful step in the right direction, and sleep has, has been very valuable for kids. So rather than trying to get them to sit down and s-

Jay Shetty 53:03 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 53:04 ... be still for a minute, which is hard enough for adults, almost impossible for kids, when they're going to bed, Sleep Stories is a very mindful way, a very gentle way for them to learn about this practice.

Jay Shetty 53:13 Yeah, I love that. I'm so glad that y- you're talking about it that way because I agree. You're not, you know, anyone who's listening is going right now, they're going, "I can't get my kid to sit still."

Michael Acton Smith 53:20 Could you, yeah. [laughs]

Jay Shetty 53:21 And, and so I think, you know, I love the idea of the Disney collaboration's fantastic, and I, I think more of that is so needed, these innovative ideas of how meditation and mindfulness can be presented to kids, because that, that's literally all it is. And I just, you know, this is a really great conversation to make that point that please understand that when you're trying to make things more accessible, more entertaining, more practical for people, that's the only way it's gonna work.

Michael Acton Smith 53:47 Mm-hmm.

Jay Shetty 53:47 Because if we keep forcing people to do things in what we assume is the purest way, uh, it, it may never, ever be... S- like you're saying, like a kid, when are they ever, how many kids are actually gonna sit down and, you know-

Michael Acton Smith 54:00 Exactly

Jay Shetty 54:00 ... just breathe?

Michael Acton Smith 54:01 Meet people where they are, understand what's going on in their world, and then try and create and frame something that, that works for them. You know, for anyone listening who is thinking about, you know, their big idea, what their purpose, uh, in life is gonna be, one thing that I found very helpful is take something that is already successful, whether it's today or, or in, in decades past, and then put a twist on it.

Jay Shetty 54:23 Mm.

Michael Acton Smith 54:23 A tweak. And if you look at some of the biggest successes of all time, that, that kind of is what's going on. It's a pattern that human beings have done again and again and again, but with a little tweak, so it's familiar, but it's got that newness and, and uniqueness. And if you can find that- ... uh, that no one else has done before. As I say, lean into it, do your research, be patient, and, and you can have a phenomenal success.

Jay Shetty 54:45 I love it. Michael, thank you so much for today. This has been so, this has gone in so many different directions than what we planned, but it's been so fun talking to you.

Michael Acton Smith 54:52 Oh, likewise.

Jay Shetty 54:53 And, and I'm so glad that we've ... I'm hoping that anyone who's listening and watching, you've gained a bit more insight into how you can kind of tune into that voice that you've got within you to be creative, to be reflective, to be introspective, and you've found that, you've found just a bit of clarity on the direction that you need to take internally towards creating something that can help the world. And you can hear how it can be a business, it can be an app, it can be a product, it can be a service, it can be anything you want it to be, but you gotta be just, that, that timing piece, I want you to go back and listen to that because I thought that was so powerful of if you're really aware of the problem and you're aware of the people you want to serve, then you'll find the potential solution. But that requires stillness, it requires sitting with that community and that problem.

Michael Acton Smith 55:42 I think just to jump in here-

Jay Shetty 55:43 Yeah, please

Michael Acton Smith 55:43 ... I think you said something so important, listening to that inner voice. And what we're very good at, at human beings at doing is distracting ourselves. As we said earlier, [laughs] there's so many distractions, and we mask what we really need to hear with alcohol and drugs and Netflix and a, a ton of other things. How often are we really truly in solitude and alone and listening to ourselves? And I, I would encourage anyone listening to do to try and carve out time to do that. If you can, as we said earlier, go away for a few days on your own, fantastic. If you can't do that, a really valuable practice is first thing in the morning before you turn your phone on, sit with a blank sheet of paper, you know, do the, the artist's way and just scribble and think, and it's amazing when you have that stillness what starts to bubble up, and the things you really need to hear only emerge in that silence.

Jay Shetty 56:36 Mm. That's beautiful. Michael, if there, is there anything you want to add? Anything I haven't asked you that's on your heart or mind or-

Michael Acton Smith 56:41 Oh, my goodness. We could-

Jay Shetty 56:41 ... anything you want to share?

Michael Acton Smith 56:42 We could talk for hours-

Jay Shetty 56:43 [laughs]

Michael Acton Smith 56:43 ... Jay, but, uh-

Jay Shetty 56:44 Yeah

Michael Acton Smith 56:44 ... but I think this was, uh-

Jay Shetty 56:45 Yeah

Michael Acton Smith 56:45 ... this was a pretty good, uh, [laughs] -

Jay Shetty 56:46 Yeah. This was good

Michael Acton Smith 56:47 ... pretty good conversation. I loved this.

Jay Shetty 56:48 Yeah.

Michael Acton Smith 56:48 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 56:48 Yeah. So do I. No, I loved it too because we totally got lost in a, in a real conversation, and that's always the best ones. But everyone who doesn't already, make sure that you, uh, follow Michael. Michael, where should people find you? If they want to follow you and follow your work, where would you like them to go?

Michael Acton Smith 57:01 I'm Acton on Twitter. I'm Michael Acton on Instagram. I'm not as active on social media as I, I used to be, but I dip in and out ev- every now and then. And, uh, yeah, just come and check out Calm and, and join our community.

Jay Shetty 57:14 Absolutely. Thank you everyone who's been listening and watching. I hope that you're gonna share on social media your takeaways, your insights, something that you're playing or practicing with as well. Share them with us. Tag both me and Michael. Let us know because I'd love to see what ideas come from this. I'd love to know that this sparked some creativity for you or brought out some genius from within you or maybe just even made you take some time for yourself. Uh, and of course, you can go and listen to The Daily Jay on Calm or The Daily Calm on Calm or any of the incredible programs that we have on the platform. Come and join us and, uh, find an easy, accessible, and fun and playful way of practicing mindfulness and meditation in your life every single day. Thanks, everyone, and thank you so much, Michael. This was wonderful. Thank you so much.

Michael Acton Smith 57:56 Thank you.

Jay Shetty 57:57 If you loved this episode, you'll enjoy my interview with Dr. Julie Smith on unblocking negative emotions and how to embrace difficult feelings.

Speaker 58:06 You've just got to be motivated every day, and if you're not, then what are you doing? And, and actually, humans don't work that way. Motivation, you have to treat it like any other emotion. Some days it will be there. Some days it won't.