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The Jefferson Fisher PodcastThe Jefferson Fisher Podcast

3 Signs You Have a Toxic Boss (And What to Do About It) ft. George Stern

We've all dealt with difficult people at work. But how do you know when your boss is just having a bad day or when their behavior has become toxic?

Jefferson FisherhostGeorge Sternguest
Nov 13, 20261h 23mWatch on YouTube

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Transcript

  1. 0:00 – 0:19

    Three red flags that your boss is toxic: personal attacks and distrust

    1. JF

      How do you know if your boss is toxic?

    2. GS

      The number one responses they're giving you are personal instead of focused on the work. If you make a mistake and that person says to you, "Here we go again, always screwing that up." Number two, they don't have any trust in you, and they show you they don't have any trust in you.

    3. JF

      What's number three?

    4. GS

      Number three is-

  2. 0:19 – 2:43

    Handling a toxic boss: diagnose the driver, then decide between a direct talk or an exit

    1. JF

      So as an employee, how do you handle a toxic boss?

    2. GS

      What I always tell employees to do is to understand what's driving that boss. If you are convinced they're just a jerk, my advice is find your exit. But most bosses are not like that. They just don't know how they're coming off. So you're gonna need to have a direct conversation.

    3. JF

      What do you see the number one mistake that bosses make?

    4. GS

      It's lack of empathy. For example, a person messages their boss and says, "Hey, my grandmother just died. I'm taking our five-day bereavement policy." To which the boss basically said, "Grandmother? Does that fall under our bereavement policy?"

    5. JF

      There's no way.

    6. GS

      And, and it's like-

    7. JF

      Are you serious? So what does a good boss do in this situation?

    8. GS

      It is simple, Jefferson. Just be a good human being, and we can talk about how to be a good human being in very difficult situations.

    9. JF

      So this is between a boss and an employee. She's asking for time off for her birthday, and this is what her boss said in response. I wanna get your take on it.

    10. GS

      Oh, man. This is the worst. Again, being directly saying no would be better than this.

    11. JF

      Man, thank you so much for spending some, some time with me. The reason why I wanted to, to bring you is not only get to meet you and say, "Hey, I... From creator to creator, I see you," and there's not that many, uh, in this space that, in my opinion, do it to solely provide value, not entertainment or anything else. There's a lot of people who provide good things. I, I see you as one of those who says, "Hey, I'm, I, I wanna make this kinda content, talk about business things, corporate things, boss things, employee things," to, to help that relationship, to put more good out in the world than I'm trying to, to take in. So first off, thanks for what you do, man.

    12. GS

      Thanks for saying that.

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. GS

      And, and you're a big inspiration, uh, Jefferson.

    15. JF

      Thanks.

    16. GS

      You're... I think I, I follow four people on TikTok, and you're one of those four.

    17. JF

      Hey. [laughs]

    18. GS

      And so it's, uh-

    19. JF

      That's funny

    20. GS

      ... but it, it is from... Uh, what, what I like most about your content is how practical and actionable it is.

    21. JF

      Thanks.

    22. GS

      And, you know, I, I laugh every time someone's saying something long-winded, which I usually do, and you're sort of like, "All right, let's, let's boil that down to the three steps-"

    23. JF

      Yeah, yeah, yeah

    24. GS

      "... that you're, you're gonna take from that."

    25. JF

      Let's cut to the chase.

    26. GS

      And I'm just like, "That's what, that's what I try to do," and-

    27. JF

      Yeah

    28. GS

      ... and you usually end up meandering around it for a while. So-

    29. JF

      Yeah

    30. GS

      ... it's, uh, it's refreshing to see-

  3. 2:43 – 4:47

    Why corporate communication is harder than personal communication: empathy with boundaries

    1. JF

      Yeah, this guy, this guy's got something wrong with him. Um, so the questions I, I, I wanna talk about specifically, um, for those who don't know George, don't follow George, um, it's not gonna be long until you're seeing his content across your For You page. What he does is provide communication advice, is what, how I put it, in relationships in the corporate world. So I, I wanna firstly... What's the one thing that corporate communication has to have that relational communication does not have?

    2. GS

      I, I love that question because, uh, so often the question I'm getting is like why, why does my boss not understand me the way that other people do or, or not give me-

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm

    4. GS

      ... the empathy that other people do? But corporate communication needs to be professional and, and, uh, concrete and respectful in a way a- and, and have a, a, uh, a sort of level of professionalism to it that you don't necessarily have to have in your relationships with friends or with family. So you know, i- it's important to hold people accountable in a way that you might not at home, to be drawing boundary lines that you might not at home-

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm

    6. GS

      ... to recognize that at the end of the day, this is a transactional relationship the way it is not at home, right? People get hired and fired at offices. You don't at home, and you, you don't in, in your personal relationships. And so it's critical to be able to... A- and this is why it's so tough for managers. You have to pack in the empathy and the, uh, ability to relate to someone and to show that you care while still holding boundaries and being professional and respectful and keeping a healthy distance in it all, and that's incredibly challenging-

    7. JF

      Yeah

    8. GS

      ... to do, and it's why we see so many people come up short in it.

  4. 4:47 – 7:50

    What employees wish bosses remembered: life happens (and it isn’t laziness)

    1. JF

      What's the one thing that employees wish their boss knew?

    2. GS

      I, I think what so many employees wish their boss, uh, remembered rather than knew, because they know it, is what it's like to be an employee. [laughs]

    3. JF

      [laughs]

    4. GS

      So many bosses sort of cross that line, and then all of a sudden think like, "All right. I'm, I'm in charge now. I'm gonna lay down-"

    5. JF

      Ego. Yeah.

    6. GS

      Uh, exactly. And, and, and they forget that, hey, life happens, right? [laughs]

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. GS

      Like, I was an employee once where my kids were getting sick or where traffic was coming out of nowhere-

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm

    10. GS

      ... or where someone in my family was, uh, going through something and I needed to be there, and I would have wanted my boss to have grace.

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. GS

      And, and so they're sitting there thinking like, "Man, I, I wish my boss would just be able to empathize and be able to understand that life happens-

    13. JF

      Yeah

    14. GS

      ... and be able to remember what that's like when, yeah, you wanna do a good job and you wanna show up and be there for your, your company and for your boss and for, you know, the, the goals you're striving for. But sometimes things come up, and work is always gonna be number two in someone's head to family.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. GS

      And so, uh, so maybe the short answer to your question is they, they want, uh, their bosses to know that- They care and that they want to be there, but that they've got other things going on, and, and it's a balancing act that, that they just need the boss to recognize that work is not always gonna be priority number one.

    17. JF

      Yeah. Life doesn't equal laziness.

    18. GS

      100%.

    19. JF

      Yeah. It's just, it-- life happens. [laughs]

    20. GS

      Yeah.

    21. JF

      That doesn't, that doesn't mean you're lazy.

    22. GS

      And, and when, when you least want it to happen, right? [laughs]

    23. JF

      Yeah.

    24. GS

      It's... N-no one, uh, like imagine-

    25. JF

      Nobody plans for accidents.

    26. GS

      Right.

    27. JF

      Yeah.

    28. GS

      Like exactly. And, and but oftentimes, right, when the boss gets angriest is when it's crunch time. You're going on something big and, and then this employee has a problem-

    29. JF

      Mm

    30. GS

      ... as you see it. You know, that, that something's come up and now they're, they're making your life more difficult. Let's make it about me, the boss.

  5. 7:50 – 10:01

    What bosses wish employees understood: pressures cascade downstream

    1. JF

      What, what is the one thing bosses wish that every employee really knew?

    2. GS

      So I, uh, this... You're, you're pointing out, I think, the, the crux of all of this-

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm

    4. GS

      ... which is it's, it's just empathy. It, it just comes down to put yourself in the other person's shoes. And so for bosses it's, "Hey, understand that I have a boss probably." Most, most managers have-

    5. JF

      Mm

    6. GS

      ... a manager or someone above them who's, who's putting demands on my time. I have life happening too. I have usually multiple employees, all of whom have things coming up, and you are expecting me to just handle your thing and, and focus on your thing when there's all kinds of different pulls on, on my time.

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. GS

      I'm going through the same stressors. Life happens. And, and so in all cases, right, I, I think a, a boss just wants this person to recognize how this is impacting everyone downstream. So-

    9. JF

      Mm

    10. GS

      ... you've called out sick for the tenth time this month, and to you it's a no-brainer because your family needed you or you were sick or couldn't show up. And look, if you're sick, don't, like don't show up. You gotta call, call out and, and make it clear. But, uh, but is there something you can do to help? [laughs]

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    12. GS

      It, it... Can, can you say... At, at least lead with empathy. "I'm so sorry that this is happening again. I know this has been a wacky month, and that this seems-

    13. JF

      Yeah

    14. GS

      ... crazy and maybe like I'm a little checked out, but here's what's actually going on. And by the way, last night when I had a few hours, I put together a handover doc for this client because I know that they've been getting neglected for a week, and so I, I gave that to you guys." Just a little thing like that-

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm

    16. GS

      ... would go such a long way to making that boss' life easier. To your call being like, "Thank you so much for thinking about us-

    17. JF

      Mm

    18. GS

      ... and we got it. Don't worry about a thing now." As opposed to like, "Oh, again?"

    19. JF

      Right.

    20. GS

      Like, "Seriously?" And, and those little, those little acts of empathy, those little acts of like, "Hey, how is this impacting the other person?" Whether it's boss to manager or boss to employee or employee to boss, uh, can go such a long way, and I think that's ultimately what they both want the other person to know is, "What am I going through? Uh, what, what if you were in my shoes?"

  6. 10:01 – 12:50

    The most common boss mistake: short-term control that causes long-term loss

    1. JF

      Mm. What do you see the number one mistake that bosses make?

    2. GS

      The number one mistake i-i-it, you know, for risk of repeating myself is that lack of empathy. So let, let's get more specific than it because, uh, b- because I think it'll be more interesting. But, but really it is just not treating the employee as you would want to be treated, not recognizing that they're not doing this to you intentionally. But, um, but one specific I'll put on it is a-- It's taking a short-term view as opposed to a long-term view. So when that employee is faced with a choice that day, right-

    3. JF

      Mm-hmm

    4. GS

      ... of, "My mom just got sick. Am I gonna go be by my mom's side or am I gonna go into work today because that's what my boss wants?"

    5. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    6. GS

      If you are the boss forcing them to come into work that day when their alternative is being by their sick mom, you are forcing them to put work above family, and they may do that for you that day.

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. GS

      You may win that day.

    9. JF

      Yeah.

    10. GS

      But that's it. They-

    11. JF

      Yeah

    12. GS

      ... they are now taking any free time they have-

    13. JF

      Mm

    14. GS

      ... to look for their o- another job that's gonna give them the flexibility to be there by a sick parent, I mean, come on.

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. GS

      Or, or a sick kid. And so when you take the short-term view of, "No, we- we're in crunch time now. We need to be on, uh, we need to be on this. I don't care what's going on in your life. Get in here," all you're doing is losing that person long term. And, and if you think your job is stressful because this employee's out a few days because life is happening, imagine how your life is gonna be when they're gone.

    17. JF

      Yeah.

    18. GS

      And you're trying to hire a replacement who doesn't know as much and who's getting caught up. And so taking that, that short-term look at it is, is gonna ultimately hurt you in the long term in a way that will be so much worse for you than, than that day's problems.

    19. JF

      Yeah, the short-term gain for the long-term loss.

    20. GS

      Uh-huh.

    21. JF

      Yeah, that math doesn't work out.

    22. GS

      Ever.

    23. JF

      Yeah, [laughs] never.

    24. GS

      And, and that's why it's like no matter how annoying it is in the moment, just give them the grace and they come back-

    25. JF

      Mm-hmm

    26. GS

      ... after whatever is happening. ... so much more energized to work for you, so much more appreciative of you-

    27. JF

      Mm

    28. GS

      ... wanting to give even more.

    29. JF

      Yeah.

    30. GS

      I mean, we see this, right? Someone, someone's given a little grace by their boss. I, I get this in my DMs all the time where someone's like, "Oh, all my boss did was, when I had something really bad happen, be like, 'Don't even think about work. I got you.' I'm gonna be with that person my entire career."

  7. 12:50 – 19:59

    Why bosses and employees misunderstand each other: the "me show" and comparison trap

    1. JF

      Yeah. I, I, um, I was laughing thinking about the, how easy it is in the business context, you just forget what it's like to be a real human sometimes. What, what it is to be a, a person. When I was a young associate in the law firm, we would complain about the partners and be like, "These partners don't get it. You know, these partners don't understand what it's like. You know, they've, they've forgotten what it's like to be a associate. They don't understand us."

    2. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JF

      Right? "They don't get it." Always complaining [laughs] about them. Man, when I w- I became partner, I got a email within five minutes, and I was like, "These associates."

    4. GS

      Yeah. [laughs]

    5. JF

      [laughs] Like, they, all they do is complain.

    6. GS

      [laughs]

    7. JF

      They don't know what it's like to, uh, to, to, to be responsible for decisions. You know?

    8. GS

      Well-

    9. JF

      They don't have all this weight on their shoulders.

    10. GS

      And why ... It's ... I mean, in your situation, why do you think, why is there, why is there such that line? Why do the two sides not-

    11. JF

      Yeah

    12. GS

      ... understand each other so dramatically?

    13. JF

      It has nothing to do with employee versus m- boss. It has everything to do with me and me.

    14. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. JF

      I mean, it's ... It, it doesn't matter what it is. It could be you and your spouse. You, you ... Have you ever ... You, you do some chores, and you realize you're, you know, you're ... You, you, you see some toys on the floor, and you're like, "No, I'm not gonna pick those up. I think, you know, somebody else is gonna pick those up," and they don't. And you're like, "Oh, you don't wanna pull your weight?"

    16. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JF

      Like, it's, it's easy to make that, that judgment call among friendships and relationships from, I mean, across the board. It's the, it's the me show.

    18. GS

      Yeah.

    19. JF

      And so nobody has it harder than me. Uh, nobody's working harder than me. Uh, can't they see what I'm doing? The answer's no.

    20. GS

      Right.

    21. JF

      You know? We're, we're the only ones that are, are the, the subjective judgers of [laughs] how much effort we're putting into something. And I think that, to your point, when a employee comes to a boss, the number one mistake that a boss makes is wanting to launch into the, "Oh, you think that's hard? Oh, you think you have a lot on your plate?" Right? And we do this in relationships, too. "Oh, you think you're busy?"

    22. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    23. JF

      "You think that's hard?" When we have this kinda comparison of who's, who's doing more, who's pulling the load. And it's, it's real easy, I think, especially for those that are in, in management, to go, "They don't even know how much I have on my shoulders. They think this is a fire? I have eight others-

    24. GS

      Yeah

    25. JF

      ... that I have to deal with, and they want me to stop and sit down and, and, and, and hold their hand, and, you know, walk them through something that they should be..." You know, I mean, it's that same kind of mentality that can ... It, it ca- it can corrode a, a lot of things, where if you don't have that little bit of, little bit of empathy. What I wanna do with this is, for the two of us to kind of put together ... This is us in the lab right now of I wanna solve some problems. 'Cause I agree wholeheartedly in most things is, especially in, in, in relational, and I would say that even in the business context, 'cause it al- it's all relational. You have to lead with empathy. That does not mean you have to lead with agreement.

    26. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    27. JF

      So w- when you're able to acknowledge to them, if you're a, a manager or a boss, and you're able to say, "That sounds really tough. Yeah, I can imagine that's really hard right now. I know you're having a tough morning right now," just even a sentence of ... Instead of going the right to, "Yep. Well, okay. You can let Sheryl know, and then X, Y, and Z," and you don't mention anything of just remembering they're a human. How do you find that from a, a ... 'Cause I wanna take both perspectives 'cause we could complain a lot about bad bosses, and we're gonna complain about them a little bit.

    28. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    29. JF

      And, and but we can also complain about the employee who's taking advantage of the system.

    30. GS

      Yep.

  8. 19:59 – 24:31

    Defining the three clearest signs: personal attacks, crushed confidence, and boundary violations

    1. JF

      How do you know if your boss is toxic?

    2. GS

      [laughs] It's, uh, what's, what's the old legal maxim, Jefferson? You, you know it when you see it.

    3. JF

      Yeah.

    4. GS

      It's, it's hard to define, but you know it when you see it. So I, I, I think this is important, though, and we can get more specific than that because a- everyone in our lives, right, does things we don't like. No boss is perfect.

    5. JF

      For sure. It could be a lot. Let's, it could be a lot. Let's, let's break it down into, like, uh, uh, three, top three.

    6. GS

      Yeah. No, uh, for sure. But, uh, but what I wanna do is, is also paint this picture of, like, just because your boss tells you to do something you don't like, that doesn't make them toxic. [laughs]

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. GS

      I, I mean-

    9. JF

      Yeah

    10. GS

      ... my, my [laughs]

    11. JF

      Right

    12. GS

      ... my wife and I have disagreements like that all the time.

    13. JF

      Yeah.

    14. GS

      Like, they're, they're... Everyone in our lives, our best friends do things we don't like, but we choose them as our best friends. We're humans. And, and-

    15. JF

      Yeah

    16. GS

      ... bosses are gonna make mistakes, and bosses are gonna tell you to do things. They need to tell you to do things that you might not want to do, and that's part of the relationship.

    17. JF

      Yeah. Don't, don't mistake tough calls from toxic behavior.

    18. GS

      100%. So when, when what they're asking, what, when the feedback they're giving you or in the responses they're giving you, when those are personal instead of focused on the work product-

    19. JF

      So first being personal attacks

    20. GS

      ... toxic, right? If, uh, i- if you make a mistake and that person says to you, "Here we go again. Always screwing that up. You just can't get that, can you?" That's toxic.

    21. JF

      Yeah.

    22. GS

      And it's just plain and simple toxic.

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    24. GS

      Right? And, and what it should be is a, "Hey, sorry. Hey-

    25. JF

      Mm-hmm

    26. GS

      ... I see that one didn't go well."

    27. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    28. GS

      "Let's talk about what happened there."

    29. JF

      Mm.

    30. GS

      "Let's figure out how we can do this differently next time." It's a totally different approach, right?

  9. 24:31 – 27:32

    Extra toxic pattern: taking credit, rejecting blame—and what it signals

    1. JF

      Absolutely. So I, I hear, how do you know if your boss is toxic? You got, one, personal attacks. Instead of talking business, they, they wanna respond to personally dismissive behavior. Two, um, when they... I like the phrase crush your confidence, meaning they, they put you down rather than pull you up. And then three, no respect for, for boundaries. W- whatever it is, it's, it is only their world and, and nothing to do with yours, and they have no problem skirting that line a- a- a- as if there's no line at all-

    2. GS

      Mm-hmm

    3. JF

      ... when it comes to the family. For me, I also see the... A lot of times I get that the boss is, claims credit but also rejects criticism. So it's, it, they, they kinda want their cake and eat it, too.

    4. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    5. JF

      Or somebody uses this... With the, in legal world they'll call it using a, a sword and a shield, meaning it's, "I'll own all the praise-

    6. GS

      Yep

    7. JF

      ... but I will redirect all the criticism."

    8. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    9. JF

      "That's somebody else's fault. That's somebody else's... You know, they didn't do what I told them to do." And they, and it's, it's always, you know, their ego is so high that to hear an opinion that's different from theirs, it just sends them through the roof.

    10. GS

      Yeah. W- a- and so toxic because it is the opposite of a good leadership maxim of, the exact opposite.

    11. JF

      Yeah. Any leadership book. [laughs]

    12. GS

      Spread, spread the credit broadly because your team's success is your own success. And insulate them from the blame and the, the incoming because, you know, ultimately the buck stops with you, and you should be doing that. And when you're doing the opposite, it, it is such a, it's such a weak boss trait, right? It's from a position of insecurity of like, "Oh, I, I don't wanna be seen as doing something wrong."

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    14. GS

      And, uh, and your team catches onto that quickly and is going to not want to do more for you-

    15. JF

      Yeah

    16. GS

      ... that you're gonna be stealing the credit, and never wanna be covering for you if you're never covering for them.

    17. JF

      Right. For all of the, the messages that you get of saying, "Hey, I have the f- I'm compli- complaining about this terrible boss that I have," what, it... You know, I'm curious, what is the main complaint, like the main behavior that you see these managers and bosses exhibiting?

    18. GS

      It's falling into the categories we've defined here.

    19. JF

      Okay.

    20. GS

      So I, I think the boundaries is probably the biggest one. It's-

    21. JF

      Yeah

    22. GS

      ... this, this person-

    23. JF

      I asked off and, and you're acting like this is the end of the world.

    24. GS

      Yep. Or, or something truly is happening in my life that's important, and they're completely insensitive to, insensitive to that and, and don't care at all. And, and basically are like, "The w- the work is what matters." Or they're texting me at-

    25. JF

      Mm-hmm

    26. GS

      ... "You up?" At 10:00 PM, which is a terrible thing for a boss to be texting an employee.

    27. JF

      Yeah.

    28. GS

      And, uh, and, and, and it's just sort of them being like, "I, do, do they even get it that, like, this isn't my everything?"

    29. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    30. GS

      "That I do have a life outside of here?" I, I, that's what I see so frequently.

  10. 27:32 – 32:25

    Worst-case example: bereavement questioned, time minimized, and proof demanded

    1. JF

      What's a story of one that was really bad you've seen?

    2. GS

      Oh, man. The worst-

    3. JF

      Kinda sticks out in your mind

    4. GS

      ... the worst ones for me are when someone is in a terrible situation in their life that would be hard on anyone.

    5. JF

      Personally.

    6. GS

      Personally.

    7. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    8. GS

      And their boss piles on. So I, I received one where the person is, uh, messages their boss and says, "Hey, my grandmother just died. I'm gonna go, I'm flying to Ohio to s- to attend her service and-

    9. JF

      Mm

    10. GS

      ... to be with my family. I'm taking our five-day bereavement policy and, uh, and I'll, I'll, uh, help you when I'm back." To which the boss basically said, "Grandmother? Does that fall under our bereavement policy?"

    11. JF

      [laughs]

    12. GS

      "Are, are you sure about that?" One, and then two, "Five days? The service is one day, right? You don't, you don't actually need five days." And it was... Now, this person-

    13. JF

      A grandmother? A grandmother.

    14. GS

      Grandmother. And, and who r- raised this person, by the way, shouldn't matter but, but in more detail-

    15. JF

      No, no, that does matter. I mean-

    16. GS

      And-

    17. JF

      It's not like somebody you've been distant with-

    18. GS

      Oh

    19. JF

      ... and you've n- you see them, you know, once every five years.

    20. GS

      Right.

    21. JF

      This is somebody who raised this person.

    22. GS

      Exactly. And, and it shouldn't matter because even if it was distant-

    23. JF

      For sure. It's still their grandmother

    24. GS

      ... it's still, it's still a grandparent.

    25. JF

      Agreed.

    26. GS

      They're significant in your life. But... And five days, it's not that much time. But, but a- and, like, you know, oftentimes it's not a- about the person who died, it's about being there for your parents and your siblings-

    27. JF

      Yes, yes

    28. GS

      ... and your cousins who all-

    29. JF

      Yes

    30. GS

      ... knew this person really well.

  11. 32:25 – 37:34

    Middle managers: managing up while advocating down

    1. JF

      I think that's... I wanna, I wanna move towards that. We've talked, we've kept it very simple on boss versus employee. I wanna make it, um, I wanna, I wanna touch on a different transition here, and that is the middle manager. I, what I call people managers.

    2. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JF

      Meaning they have people that they have to report above, and they have the people who they are responsible for below, okay? In this kinda middle category. What, what is it about these people managers? How should they communicate?

    4. GS

      So first of all, this is the hardest job in a company.

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. GS

      Because the senior leadership is usually making decisions that then the middle manager has to implement.

    7. JF

      Yes.

    8. GS

      And they might not agree with those decisions. They might know, because they're close to the employees, this is a terrible decision.

    9. JF

      Yeah.

    10. GS

      This is gonna backfire.

    11. JF

      Oh, they're gonna hate this.

    12. GS

      But, but they, they were not asked for their feedback because that person above them wasn't doing a very good job, and now they have to sell this. And, uh, and if they don't, it's their job, right?

    13. JF

      And they're the face of it now.

    14. GS

      Ex- exactly. And, and they're the one who's gonna see the day-to-day impacts, have to take on more of the work if-

    15. JF

      Mm-hmm

    16. GS

      ... you know, employees are protesting on it or not willing to do it. So, uh, incredibly tough, and at the same time, you're facing all the challenges any manager does of all kinds of people-

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm

    18. GS

      ... having different needs, different wants, different life happening.

    19. JF

      They're in a lot of no-win situations.

    20. GS

      E- exactly. And so incredibly, incredibly hard situation. What was the question?

    21. JF

      Well, how, how do they... I wanna focus specific- for those in, that are listening right now, and they go, "Yeah, hey, George Jefferson, this, this is where I'm at, okay? I have... I'm at a hospital. I'm a teacher, and I ha- I have admin, faculty, and I also have, uh, uh, parents. I'm at a hospital where I also have admin. I have other, uh, people on the floor with me. I also have patients." You know, they're, they're stuck in this middle of having to say yes to the people above and yes to the people below. And like we said, there's not really a, a win-win situation.

    22. GS

      Mm-hmm. So what's important for this middle manager to be doing is to, A, managing up. So you need to make sure that the level above you that's making these tough decisions that you need to implement, you need to make sure that they are s- hearing and seeing the impact of it. Even if they don't ask you, [laughs] even-

    23. JF

      Mm-hmm

    24. GS

      ... if they, they haven't solicited your feedback. It's important because you know how this is gonna impact the folks on the ground, that you're communicating that up.

    25. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    26. GS

      And so that requires difficult conversations and direct conversations-

    27. JF

      Mm-hmm

    28. GS

      ... where you're saying to them, "Hey, I understand this decision is made here. If this is the decision, I will be helping implement it."

    29. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    30. GS

      "And, and I know that that's important part of my role. But I want you to know how I think this is gonna impact our folks, and where this is gonna be particularly tough for them. And that we might... What the consequences are gonna be of it. We might lose-"

  12. 37:34 – 42:11

    Why “we’re a family here” is a dangerous workplace phrase

    1. JF

      Are you somebody who ... Do you believe that the people you work with are to be a family?

    2. GS

      No. I, I hate that phrase.

    3. JF

      [laughs]

    4. GS

      I, I, uh, man, this one is, it, it's, it's often so well-intentioned. It's, uh, by, by some. I, I wanna- it's abused by others. But by some it's like a, "We take care of our people here. We are a family." But then oftentimes the bosses who are saying, "Oh, we're like a family here," are the ones who are saying like, "And therefore we should be working 80 hours and going above and beyond for each other-

    5. JF

      [laughs]

    6. GS

      ... and expecting more of each other."

    7. JF

      Yeah.

    8. GS

      You're not a family. Families don't do layoffs. Families, when things get tough, don't say, "You're out of the family." Families aren't, uh, like cutting people's [laughs] pay when, when they-

    9. JF

      Yeah

    10. GS

      ... most need it or deciding whether they have healthcare or ... Uh, there, there are so many ways in which work is not a family, and it shouldn't be a family.

    11. JF

      Mm.

    12. GS

      It, it is a transactional relationship. It is good to want to treat people like family, so when Grandmother dies you say, "Oh my God, I am so sorry. Don't think about anything but that."

    13. JF

      Mm.

    14. GS

      Uh, like, "Don't think about work," 'cause that's what a family would say.

    15. JF

      Right.

    16. GS

      "Don't think about work." But to say, uh, "We're a family here," is, is usually just code for we're going to demand more of you than is reasonable to demand of you. And, and I, I wish businesses and bosses would get that out of their thinking.

    17. JF

      Is the idea ... I, because I agree with you. There is nothing wrong with it being a ... It's a, it ... A transactional thing. I, I work here, and in exchange I receive some kind of amount of money.

    18. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    19. JF

      Uh, of ... It's called work, and I'm, I'm working for the ability to afford things-

    20. GS

      Mm

    21. JF

      ... for my family. So I, I, I agree with you that it can be definitely overstated. And I think there's a difference between ... I like that you lay out this distinction of acting like you're family versus treating you like you're family. In other words, are you treating them as you would treat somebody in your own family-

    22. GS

      Mm-hmm

    23. JF

      ... versus, um, having these unrealistic expectations of, that you're p- putting on them. Like, would you talk to your grandmother this way?

    24. GS

      Yeah.

    25. JF

      K- [laughs] kind of, uh, thing. I was like, that's kind of a crazy family if this is how we're treating each other.

    26. GS

      Right. I mean, we, we do favors for our family. We, we do things without expecting anything in return.

    27. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    28. GS

      You-

    29. JF

      There's give and take

    30. GS

      ... you, you should, you should not be just doing favors and giving things away at work. You should be getting something for that-

  13. 42:11 – 50:23

    When kindness gets abused: a 3-part checklist for tough accountability talks

    1. GS

      do I know when it's time to have the tough conversation of this is your 911 call?" Mm-hmm. This is so important. This is the most common question I get from managers is, "I'm trying so hard to be good, and for my top performers I am an incredible manager because I'm supporting them, I'm giving them challenges-

    2. JF

      Mm

    3. GS

      ... I'm, uh, helping them go farther than they ever thought they could go, and I'm giving them balance, and there's so much trust there. But I've got that one who's taking advantage of how kind I am."

    4. JF

      Man.

    5. GS

      "And I don't wanna be a jerk."

    6. JF

      Yeah.

    7. GS

      "So how do I manage them?" And I, I, I like how you ask it of is it time to have that, that tough conversation, because my answer to these folks is often, when they're like, "How do I hold someone accountable?" Or, "How, how do I, you know, know if it's time to lay down the law?" Is it actually- You need to step back and see have you taken the steps that make it time to have that conversation and-

    8. JF

      What questions should they be asking themselves?

    9. GS

      Here-

    10. JF

      Like there's like a checklist.

    11. GS

      I'll give you a Jefferson Fisher three-

    12. JF

      Oh my gosh

    13. GS

      ... three-part list here-

    14. JF

      Let's go

    15. GS

      ... of, of what you should be looking for. The first thing is whatever you think they are coming up short on or doing wrong or-

    16. JF

      Mm

    17. GS

      ... need to have a conversation about, can you define what that is? So i- it's, you can't just say, "Oh, they're just not getting the work done." B- you can't hold someone to get the work done. It needs to be, "If you're a salesperson, you need to make 150 cold calls a day." Or if, you know, it's-

    18. JF

      Yeah

    19. GS

      ... project based, it's like, "When I give you this project on Monday, it needs to be done by Friday." You need to be able to define it.

    20. JF

      Is there an objective standard that you can define?

    21. GS

      Exactly.

    22. JF

      Yeah.

    23. GS

      Yeah, you can't hold someone to something that isn't that or, or just sort of expect it. So number one, can you define it? Number two, have you communicated that to them clearly? Uh, i- is this, uh, something that they know? And, and this is what a lot of bosses-

    24. JF

      Mm

    25. GS

      ... get tripped up on because they were often, before becoming a boss, were a talented individual contributor, and that's why they got promoted. And there's all kinds of problems with that that, that we can talk about. But, um, but this is the most common boss. It's someone who's crushing it on their own. And so they just sort of know expectations, and even when they're poorly defined, and how to meet them-

    26. JF

      Mm

    27. GS

      ... and how to, uh, and how to rise to the occasion and make sure that they're, uh, doing what they're supposed to do and, and showing up when they're supposed to. And so, uh, you may assume that this is clear to someone, but if you have not explicitly said what you have defined in number one to the person-

    28. JF

      Mm-hmm

    29. GS

      ... then it is unreasonable to hold them to it.

    30. JF

      Got it.

  14. 50:23 – 58:41

    Good bosses in practice: ask about life, ask about goals, and set texting boundaries

    1. JF

      Right. Do you also get success stories where these, you know, people are, are bragging on their boss?

    2. GS

      I do. I, I, I didn't-

    3. JF

      Well, I wanna make sure I ... Before you get into it, I wanna make sure I pose the question because I'm hoping, I was hoping the answer is yes. What, what does a good boss do?

    4. GS

      So I actually now get a lot of these whi- which is awesome because, uh, when this first started and I was putting out bad boss stories, it w- every DM was like, "Let me tell you mine. You think that's bad?"

    5. JF

      Whoo, I got one for you.

    6. GS

      "Watch this one."

    7. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    8. GS

      And, uh, man, it was, it was depressing to get into my DMs every day.

    9. JF

      Yeah. [laughs]

    10. GS

      It was like, "Oh, God. Are there, are there actually this many out there?"

    11. JF

      Yeah.

    12. GS

      And then, um, I started to have people saying like, "Hey, I love your videos, but could you feature some positive, too? Just, uh, like, A, as a palate cleanser-"

    13. JF

      Maybe one too. Yeah, yeah, yeah

    14. GS

      ... "to, to make me feel better, but B, 'cause, you know, I wanna see what to do. You talk about what to do, but I wanna actually see it."

    15. JF

      Yeah.

    16. GS

      Which, which is fair, 'cause what, what drives, you know, this content is that it's, it's concrete and vivid for people.

    17. JF

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    18. GS

      They're like, they can relate to it. And to which I'd always respond to them, "I'd love to, but my, I'm getting nothing but negative in my DMs right now."

    19. JF

      You have one? Yeah. [laughs]

    20. GS

      "Do you have one? Send it to me."

    21. JF

      Yeah.

    22. GS

      And then a few did, and then I, I did one, and then the floodgates opened and I started-

    23. JF

      Good

    24. GS

      ... getting a lot of positive. So man, it is simple, Jefferson. It, I can boil it down to just be a good human being. I, like, it, it really does not go much further than that. You, you can ... There's difficult situations and, and we can talk about how to handle, you know, how to be a good human being in very difficult-

    25. JF

      Mm

    26. GS

      ... situations. But ultimately, it's like what, what would you want a boss to do in, in the situation you're in? What kind of grace would you want from-

    27. JF

      Mm

    28. GS

      ... the person on the other end of the table? Would you want them to support you through this incredibly difficult time and, as you said, take a burden off your plate?

    29. JF

      Mm.

    30. GS

      Feel like a weight's lifted off your shoulders? Or would you want them to be an absolute jerk to you? And-

  15. 58:41 – 1:03:00

    Coworker conflict: stop assumptions from growing and have the direct conversation

    1. JF

      How do you, how do you respond, hmm, Matt says, "How do you handle a coworker that you don't like?"

    2. GS

      This is, uh, maybe as common as, uh, as bad bosses, because again, I mean, workplaces are made up of humans, and we all have humans that we love and humans we can't stand. And, and frankly, you often have less that you can improve upon when it's a coworker than when it's a boss, because-

    3. JF

      Hmm

    4. GS

      ... uh, you may love your boss, and so not wanna leave this place. Are you gonna leave because there's a coworker you really can't stand?

    5. JF

      Yeah.

    6. GS

      And, um, and there's various reasons you, you might not be able to stand them. So, you know, I, I think it ultimately comes down to what is driving you crazy about them, or what can't you stand about them? And i- if, you know, if it's basic human communication patterns or anything, I, you know, you've got tons of content on-

    7. JF

      [laughs]

    8. GS

      ... on how to, how to handle those people.

    9. JF

      Mm-hmm.

    10. GS

      But, um, but if it is toxicity or, you know, any of the things we've been talking about bosses, then it's, it's equally as important to have those direct conversations where you're coming at it from a position-

    11. JF

      Mm-hmm

    12. GS

      ... of empathy. Maybe they can't stand you and recognize that-

    13. JF

      Mm-hmm

    14. GS

      ... there might be something to that. Maybe you just have different operating styles. And, um, and you wanna figure out, you know, what do you think is, is causing whatever they're doing that, uh, is driving you crazy, and how can you two come to a, a position of understanding on it through a, a direct conversation?

    15. JF

      Hmm. The way I see it is never let the assumptions grow, where you just assume that they're lazy, or you assume that they don't like you, or you assume about, something about their behavior. And rather than having the conversation, you just let it get bigger.

    16. GS

      Mm-hmm.

    17. JF

      You know? You let that continue to grow, and you could've, you could've removed that thought from your brain months ago had you, you know, walked across the hall and said, "Hey, I need to talk to you about something that's been bothering me."

    18. GS

      Wh- which is so important. Everyone dreads that conversation.

    19. JF

      Yeah.

    20. GS

      Everyone dreads-

    21. JF

      Why?

    22. GS

      ... the direct thing. But it, uh, it's usually after, we all know this, it's you walk out and you're like, "Oh, I feel so much better now."

    23. JF

      That was it.

    24. GS

      "Thank God I did that."

    25. JF

      Yeah.

    26. GS

      And, and that's where I just, you know, if, if it's hearing from us or if it's just putting in the reps to have those hard conversations once in a while, you'll find that they're worth having. Because you're right, it usually is just something that was so small. He, he, like, took your lunch from the fridge one day.

    27. JF

      [laughs]

    28. GS

      And you just let it fester, and now you assume that, yeah, you know, he's always doing the wrong thing. And it's like-

    29. JF

      Yeah

    30. GS

      ... "Oh, sorry. I, my wife packed it. I thought it, mine was in the brown bag. I didn't mean to do that."

  16. 1:03:00 – 1:23:40

    Reading real messages: the birthday PTO guilt-trip and a bereavement exchange (what to tweak)

    1. JF

      using the code BACK2ROUTINE. That's the word back, the number two, routine. That's drinkag1.com/jefferson. Use the code BACK2ROUTINE. And now let's keep going. Okay. I'm, I'm, I'm showing you a, a text message, okay? This is between a boss and an employee, and she's been working there for 13 years, and she's asking for time off for her birthday, and this is what her, her boss said in response. I wanna get your take on it. All right. I'm, I'm seeing an email subject line, "Time Off." "It's your call if you think you have earned the time and it's appropriate to take a week off for a birthday." Oh, man. [laughs] So [laughs] person's worked there 13 years. Right. It's their birthday. When, when they're taking a week off, often, I'm making an assumption here, but often it's, like, the 40th birthday or the- Right ... 50th birthday. Yeah. They've, they've already told family, like, "Let's, let's go build, let's have a vacation-" There are plans that have been made "... and celebrate this one." Yeah. Exactly. Flights might have been booked. People have already put in their time. Yeah. And, and instead of saying, if it truly is no, "I'm so sorry, you can't that week. You kn- you've known for two years-" Right "... that we've got this major, major conference coming up." Right. Or saying what you should say, what you should make work. A, "Of course. Of co- take, take two weeks if you want it." Yeah. "You've been a loyal, dedicated employee for 13 years. Happy birthday. Can I buy the first round of drinks at the-" Yeah "... at the dinner as a thank you for-" Right "... all your time?" They say, "Well, it's your call if you think you've earned the time and it's appropriate." How bad is that? This, this is, this is the worst. Again, being directly- Yeah ... saying no would be better than this, where you're making them think, like, "Oh, do I... I have... I wasn't feeling funny about it. Am I supposed to feel funny about-" Yeah. That funny feeling "... taking time off?" That heartburn. "Is, is my job here when I get ba- if I say, 'Yeah, I have earned it,' and they don't agree, like, am I coming back from this blowout birthday celebration-" Right "... that probably is costing me some money to no- not having a job anymore?" You know what I hate so much about this message? It's that he used the phrase, "If you feel like you've earned it." Yeah. Okay? Which as... It, it's the logical assumption is he doesn't think- Right ... that she's earned it after 13 years. And, and if you don't think they've earned it because they've b- their performance has been bad for the last few years, have you communicated that? Right. Because none of... Y- you can't surprise someone with it at a birthday PTO request that, "Oh yeah, your performance has been bad, so you have not earned this, and I just was keeping that from you." Right. I, this is, you know, it's red flag, red flag, red flag. It's like people should always know where they stand with you. Right. They should know exactly how they're doing. You shouldn't be asking them to determine whether they've earned something or not. It's like, "I know I've earned this because you tell me that I've earned it," or, "I know I'm not in a good spot right now," and in which case they probably wouldn't have asked for a week- Right ... if you had been doing your job of communicating that. They should know where they stand. Uh, they should always feel like they can choose big life moments over work if this isn't a, like- Mm ... every day, you know, they're celebrating someone else's birthday. And, and this doesn't feel like an unusual ask. Uh, this doesn't feel like a common ask for this person. This feels like a special thing. Yeah. And so they should know that they can do that and that no one's gonna question it, and they should know that their boss is gonna have their back and be supportive in that. Yeah. Because if you've given 13 years to a place and you get this email, you're checked out. Yeah. We'll see. You're like, "Se- seriously?" Yeah. I... Imagine, like, the seed of, "If you feel like you've earned it and you feel like that's appropriate," versus the, "Hey, you've more... Absolutely, you've more than earned it. In fact, where are you going? Well, you know, f- first dinner reservation on me." Mm-hmm. Like, whole... I mean, totally different seed that's being planted. And now they're seeing all their family at their birthday. Family's saying, "How's work?" And they're like, "I've got the best boss in the world. I'm gonna spend another 20 years with them." Uncle's saying, "Oh, God, you're lucky. I don't have a boss like this." And that person's thinking like, "Wow, I am lucky." Yeah. "That was really cool. I'm gonna come back hyper-charged to, like, work harder, to stay with them more-" Yeah "... to tell others that this is a great place to work and to bring them in." You, you are creating your own reality by having a reaction like this versus the opposite. Yeah. Letting the brand of the company take over your personal brand. Mm-hmm. Okay, I just sent you another one. Th- this is an interaction between a manager and an employee, and the employee, uh, lost her grandmother and they're going, uh, th- through this time. I want you to take a look at The, the exchange, what went right, what went, what went wrong?

    2. GS

      Cool. All right, so let's, let's read this. So the manager is saying, "Hey, can you help with this board deck?" Uh, the other, your coworker's asking if you're working today, and if you can help. "How are you, your family, and your grandma doing?" To which the employee says, "My grandma's in her final days, so I need to focus on my family this week."

    3. JF

      Okay.

    4. GS

      Man-

    5. JF

      Stop. That, this is good. Like, good that the employee is what?

    6. GS

      Yeah, th- this is, this is good that the employee is communicating exactly what's going on.

    7. JF

      Okay.

    8. GS

      Saying, "Hey, I, I'm not gonna be able to help with that. My grandma's in the final days." That's something a, a boss should immediately understand and know, "Okay, give this person space." Boss says, "Okay, I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to be insensitive to that. Do what you need to do and take the rest of the week off." I love that response. So few bosses give that.

    9. JF

      Yes.

    10. GS

      They go directly to the, uh, the, what does this mean for me?

    11. JF

      Yeah, yeah.

    12. GS

      What does this mean for the company? When will you be back?

    13. JF

      Mm.

    14. GS

      Rather than-

    15. JF

      Yeah

    16. GS

      ... the do what you need to do, take the rest of the week off. I, I probab- Uh, then they say, "I'm so sorry." So they've, they've covered the, you know, they're, they're actually pausing, having some empathy for the person, and saying, "Don't even think about it."

    17. JF

      Mm.

    18. GS

      "Take the rest of the week off." Same day, they say, "Sorry for reaching out." Oh, the, the, yeah, so this message, so this message continues. They say, "Sorry for reaching out. We'll be praying for you and your family." More good kindness. Next day, they text the employee, "You doing okay?" And that's it.

    19. JF

      Yeah.

    20. GS

      And so I like that, and, and there's no response from the employee-

    21. JF

      Mm

    22. GS

      ... which is also okay, and hopefully the boss doesn't take that personally. This person owes nothing. They've been told to take the rest of the week off. You don't need to text your boss, but it's just a boss checking in and, and seeing if they need anything.

    23. JF

      Right.

    24. GS

      Next day, so now we're at Friday, the end of the week that they've been told to take off. "Hey, just wanted to check in to see how you were doing and understand when you think you will be coming back to work. No rush, just let me know what you're thinking." And the employee says, "I will see you Monday. Please refrain from texting me until then." So I think maybe we're feeling some tension there.

    25. JF

      Yeah.

    26. GS

      That the employee is not happy they're texting. In this case, I think the boss... I, I understand how it may be coming off to the employee like that, right?

    27. JF

      Right.

    28. GS

      They texted Thursday. The manager did. Employee didn't respond. They're texting again Friday saying, "When are you coming in?" And so you see the employee thinking like, "God, they told me to take the week off, and now they've been texting me daily?"

    29. JF

      Two, two days in a row now. Yeah.

    30. GS

      Like, back off. I, I genuinely think here though the manager is, doesn't realize they're coming off like that.

Episode duration: 1:23:40

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