The Jefferson Fisher Podcast5 Practical Ways to Handle High Conflict Conversations Without Losing Control | Jefferson Fisher
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
85 min read · 16,833 words- 0:00 – 3:33
Making room for emotion: the “conversation bubble” and why it feels hard
- JFJefferson Fisher
I will be the first to admit I have trouble sometimes in conversation when the other person gets emotional. That's, that's me being honest and transparent with you. If somebody is getting really emotional, whether it's anger, meaning they escalate in anger, or maybe they're really sad and they're crying a whole lot, or maybe they feel really closed off or they're having big emotions, that's hard for me to process sometimes. Throughout this episode, I want you to see the conversation between me and you or you and another person as you two in a circle, in a enclosed, confined space. But let's give it some room. Let's not be claustrophobic. Give yourself some, some space. That it's this preserved bubble that you're in that is a circle, and whether or not how much space do you have in this conversation for emotion. Like I said, sometimes I have a hard time with that. I tend to be, um, somebody who can sometimes see emotions as a distraction to the point or the goal or the finish line of what I'm wanting to communicate, and sometimes that's good. As an attorney, that's how we're taught, right? I can have clients that are very emotional right in front of me and it won't affect me at all. And there's some times that, yeah, I get pulled on my heartstrings and I, I want to help and I'm there. And there are other times where it is... it's just part of the process because I've seen a lot of emotion. People come to me, and a lot of trial attorneys can relate to this, I... they're seeing-- I'm seeing them at some of the lowest, hardest points of their life. And so it's also a sign of strength for me to say, "I can take on your emotion. I can be here with you. I..." And at the same time, I can still be empathetic without trying to make you feel worse or make it feel like you shouldn't feel this way. So there's some p- part of it where emotion's just part of the game. I can... or, um, I might be deposing a witness, like asking questions, and they start to cry. That's, that's part of it. So sometimes I have to see through that emotion. That's professionally. In relationship side, that's just part of the, the life. That's part of the relationship is to be vulnerable with those emotions of how you're f- feeling. And I, I'm definitely not gonna talk to a witness when they're going through some time of emotion that I'm gonna talk with my wife or my mom or my dad or my siblings or my kids. So it's, it's understanding context, it's understanding environment. So let's call that the, the bubble in this. So admittedly, sometimes I have trouble with that. That's just me being honest. And there are other times where despite me having difficulty sometime, I can tell you how to control your own self in the conversation even when they get emotional. And I don't do this... I'm not telling you this in some kind of hidden trick way or there's some kind of Jedi mind trick. There's not. There's just very simple key things I want you to keep in mind when somebody else on the other side is starting to get emotional. So I want you to kind of nod your head right now if that's you. You feel like when other people get emotional in the conversation, y- you don't know how to process that. Maybe you get... you tense up, maybe you freeze, maybe you want to distance yourself from it. You're not really sure how to do it and you're... you feel awkward all of a sudden. I want to reassure you that's totally normal, all right? I can, I can relate to that to some extent, so I want to help you through this in this episode. So here we go. You ready? Number one, what I want you to do when it comes to maintaining control
- 3:33 – 7:35
1) Identify your physical tells when someone else gets emotional
- JFJefferson Fisher
when the other person gets emotional is to understand first before you start even assessing the other person, understand your own physical cues, and I mean physical. So understand how in that moment their emotions affect your physical, meaning do you find that your face scrunches up like I'm doing right now? Do you find that your body or your neck tenses up? Regardless of the emotion that they're showing, let's, let's not go into the details yet. Let's, let's keep it surface and then we'll go deep. What happens when you perceive any kind of emotion? 'Cause most of the time, whether it's happy or sad, we still have a physical reaction to it from whatever emotion that they're showing. So maybe you scoot away. Maybe your head looks away 'cause you don't want to face it. Maybe you feel like you... Maybe you clench your fists. I was thinking of the word. I didn't know the... forgot the word. You clench your fists in some extent. We all have a physical reaction, and your job right now is to think of yours. So just five seconds. What tends to be your first gut reaction when somebody on the other side of you gets emotional? For me, I find that often it's difficult for me to keep eye contact with them because I don't want them to feel that they're on the witness stand or they are on this pedestal or they are... all eyes are on them, and sometimes eye contact makes it harder on the other person. So maybe I might avoid my eyes. Sometimes I can shut down. In other words, I'm gonna distance myself a little bit because I don't wanna be maybe too strong in the conversation. Um, so that tends to be s- sometimes that, that happens when somebody gets really, really emotional in the conversation. And it also depends, which I'm hearing you saying right now, is Jefferson, it depends what kind of emotion they're showing, and I, I understand that. If it's sadness and the other person is very sad and let's say they're crying a whole lot, you know, I don't know really how to deal with that. What I can tell you is that it's not helpful if you try to avoid it and distance. Why? Because it makes them feel all the more isolated. Instead, you have to get comfortable with understanding your physical cues and being comfortable around what they're doing and that sadness. That shows empathy, that shows sympathy, that shows that their emotions aren't scaring you off If it's anger that they're showing, different story, because what happens? We typically hold our breath, and then we start to prepare to run, to yell, to fight back. We're f- it's the fight or fight fully on board. We don't know if we wanna throw hurtful words, escalate the behavior. So what is the main key that drives this is your physical cues. Your body will almost always betray you in that way. You ever heard when somebody goes, "What's... You, you seem like you're mad," and you're like, "I don't know. I'm not, I'm not mad." And they're like, "Okay. Well, your, your face and your voice say you do." It's because your body knows. Regardless of what you say in your mind, your body knows, and sometimes it will betray you that way in ways that you're not expecting. So number one, understand your physical cues. If you don't know naturally what you do when you're feeling the emotions of somebody else, ask a friend. Ask your closest friend, a partner, a spouse, a parent. Say, "Hey, when things get emotional, what do you see that I, I tend to do?" Ask them that question and I promise you'll learn something. It's, it's gonna help you. Why, why do you want to know your physical cues? Because that is step one. If you cannot control your physical cues, if you do not know what's happening to your body in that moment, then I cannot help you. Then nobody can help you. Then you will not have control when the other person gets emotional
- 7:35 – 13:10
2) Ground yourself with internal phrases: “Put it down” and “There is space for this”
- JFJefferson Fisher
if you cannot at least acknowledge and identify what your physical cues are. Cool? Okay. Number two, I want you to start using phrases in your head that ground you. That sounds woo-woo. It's not. I promise it's not. I do it, and I, I'm not a woo-woo fan. So what does that mean, use phrases in your head to ground yourself? We're going to talk to ourself and use phrases when the other person's getting emotional that help us stay in the moment. When I say present, I mean my mind is not off somewhere else. I am here. I'm focused in on what is happening in front of me. I am not in the past. I am not in the future. I am right here in this moment. There is no other point in time that will ever be the same as when I am listening to you right now. And I might need to use phrases that I'm gonna say to myself that you and I are gonna work out together that's, that are gonna be personal to you, that are gonna help you make sure and realize that your feet are planted. So wherever you are right now, if you're listening, maybe you're standing, maybe you're walking, maybe you're in your car, I want you to just, like, wiggle your toes. Remember th- those guys? Yeah. You, maybe you forgot that they were there. Wiggle them for a second. Okay, cool. Now just keep them still. That's... I, I, I want to just put this image of grounding, so just push your feet if you can into the ground, the soles of your feet, of your shoes, your socks. Feel it in the ground. That is you planted in that moment. So what we're gonna do, we're gonna use phrases that help you, and I'm going to share with you two of mine. All right? Number one, when somebody's getting emotional, what I say to myself is the same thing that I say if I find that I'm getting defensive because often if there's anger in front of me, that emotion, I want to pick it up. So what do I ground myself with? I use the phrase, "Put it down, Jefferson." I, I'm not kidding. I immediately will go, "Put it down, Jefferson. Put it down. Put it down." I, I think of my, my son picking something off the ground and I'm like, "Eh, let, let go of that. You don't need to be picking up this," uh, I don't know. It could be whatever kids pick up that it's best that they not. So you name it. Or I just go in my head, "Put it down, Jefferson. That's not yours to carry. That's not yours to pick up." It is not yours. It is their emotion. Don't pick it up. You can see it. You can acknowledge it. I say, "Put it down, Jefferson." So right now just say it to yourself, whatever your name is. Put it down. See how that feels to you. You're gonna come up maybe with your own personal phrase that feels good to you to remind you to drop it. Drop it. Don't take on their emotion. You are here in the present grounded without trying to add anything else to it. Another that I like, another that I like is I will say to myself, "There is space for this." There is space for this, meaning if I'm in a conversation with somebody who's starting to get emotional, whether it's sadness or anger, I ground myself with the phrase, "There is space for this," meaning two things can be true at the same time. I can have my emotions and they can have their emotions and two things can be true at the same time. Both emotions can be true. Doesn't mean either one is right. Doesn't m- mean either one is less valid than the other. Two things can be true at the same time. There is space for both of this. So maybe I'm mad, right? And maybe my wife is really sad or vice versa. It doesn't, it doesn't mean that either one of us is on a bad playing field. It, it, it means that there is space for both of this. Or maybe I am having a conversation with, um, an attorney who's really grinding my gears and this attorney's getting heated. Well, I know that's coming from a purpose and a reason. I'm not gonna let that control me. For me to control myself and control the conversation even when they start to get emotional is to remind myself there's space for this. There's enough room. So that goes back to the circle that we talked about, this bubble. So if there's space for it, we're gonna widen that enough. The circle between me and you right now, there's enough space. If there's not, then we have to widen our circle. That means I... If there's not enough space, it means that bubble doesn't include both of us. It only includes me. And if that's the case, then that's a conversation you w- we're gonna have to rethink from the very beginning because that's a conversation you don't really wanna be in and that's a conversation that the other person doesn't deserve you in So because that's not a two-way connection. You feel me? So when you are both in the bubble, the circle of communicating, it's okay for you to ground yourself, make sure you have control to say, there is space for this. Those are two of my favorites. Now, you can make any phrase that you want. That's totally up to you. Totally up to you. A phrase that's going to ground you. There's no right answer. There is no wrong answer. It is simply a reminder of I am here. This emotion is valid or this emotion I see, this emotion I observe rather than taking it and knitting it into a sweater and then putting it on deciding that that's now your emotion too and you're going to get worked up about it. All right? That's how to continue to maintain control even when they get emotional.
- 13:10 – 14:11
Ad break: Timeline / Mitopure (mitochondrial health)
- JFJefferson Fisher
I want to take a moment to tell you about Timeline. When we talk about aging well, we usually like to talk about our diet, our exercise, the cold plunge, whatever it is, but there's actually something that needs to go down at the cellular level. That's right. We're talking the mitochondria. You remember the mitochondria, the powerhouse of the cell? Well, it turns out that you actually need that energy. And what Timeline does through a supplement called Mitopure, which I've been taking now and it tastes delicious. They're like these little gummies that are awesome. Like seriously, they do taste good. That help clear out bad, damaged mitochondria so that it restores and gives you clean mitochondria for better cellular health. Timeline has spent over 15 years researching mitochondrial health and in human clinical studies, people saw improvements in muscle strength and energy without changing their routine. For me, it's about staying sharp, staying strong, and making sure that I am having as much energy in my body as I possibly can. And where
- 14:11 – 18:47
3) Hold firm boundaries when emotions turn disrespectful (and don’t mirror escalation)
- JFJefferson Fisher
does that start? The powerhouse of the cell. I promise you, they really do taste delicious. So Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Mitopure now starts at $79 when you go to timeline.com/JEFFERSON. Go to timeline.com/JEFFERSON. And now let's keep going. Number three, what I want you to stand in line with here is that even when they get emotional, there is a boundary. There is a boundary. That is a boundary that protects you in a way that they don't really have to do anything. So that means if they're starting to raise their voice, this really goes for things that are negative. In other words, it's anger, it's rage, it's frustration, irritation that they're trying to put on you. They're trying to color you in those emotions. When that kind of thing happens, you put up a boundary with that. What I mean is, first off, we're not going to mirror what you see. If they start to get angry, we're not going to mirror that. If they start to raise their voice and their level is at a level six, that doesn't mean you're going to see it as a competition and raise it to level eight. That's not maintaining control. That is simply giving away your control. That means the louder they get, the more steady your voice will be. That means the faster they go, the slower your voice is going to sound. And I promise you, you will always sound more in control of that conversation than the other person. What happens is they're going to eventually regulate to come back down. So how do you maintain that boundary? Here's some phrases that I like. One is I set up this framework that I do not X, Y, Z. If you continue to X, Y, and Z, then this is the end of the conversation for me. For example, I don't respond to somebody who's yelling at me. If you continue to yell and raise your voice, this is the end of the conversation. Simple as that. Simple boundary. Now it's if they want to continue to talk, now they know the rules of the game, the rules of play. I don't respond to disrespect. If you continue to talk with me in that tone, this is the end of the conversation for me. That's still a boundary. Every bit of a boundary. You can still be there for their emotions. You still can be there to observe them, but also maintain your own sense of self-worth and self-respect, making sure that that doesn't get diluted or watered down. Another that I really like is I'm willing to talk, not be talked over. Or I'm willing to talk and I'm not willing to talk like this. That's one of my favorites. Because what I'm doing is I'm using and, not but. This is how my weird brain goes. So if I say I'm willing to talk, but not like this, that but deletes I'm willing to talk. I think it's stronger, my professional opinion, of I'm willing to talk and I'm not willing to talk like this. So it's very clear of what I'm willing to do and what I'm not willing to do. And you can shorten it however you like. I'm not trying to be super nitpicky. It's going to be whatever is right for you. Maybe you want to say I'm not comfortable continuing to talk like this. If we continue to talk this way, I'm going to need a break. I'm going to need a timeout. Those are boundaries to protect you. So even when they start to get overly emotional, that is you maintaining control in the conversation. They're short. They're simple. They are there to help you. And if the other person abides by them, they're also there to help the other person as well, no matter what emotion tends to bubble up on the surface. So when somebody's getting emotional in the conversation and you're not really sure what to do, what do we talk about? Number one, you're gonna maintain and understand and identify your own physical cues. What is happening to you and your body? Your body will drive the train. Number two, you're going to find yourself grounding in that moment, staying planted and present by using phrases that help remind you to do that, like, "There is space for this. Two things can be true at the same time. I can be mad, and they can be sad, and that's okay." Three, don't let yourself be walked over. If you need to, hold a boundary. Do not let their emotions all of a sudden become your emotions.
- 18:47 – 19:48
Not being an emotional “target”: resisting forced emotional matching and manipulation
- JFJefferson Fisher
Don't let them just take a stamp and stamp you with them and say, "You have to also be upset if I'm upset." I've seen that too sometimes in people who, in relationships, they feel like, "I just want you to argue with me. I want you to be mad like I'm mad." They want you to show some kind of emotion to see if it's... to feel something. Be very careful with that because often that's just a manipulation technique. That's a technique that's... They want to self-soothe in some way because they are dependent on your match of emotion that may or may not be healthy for you. I'm not saying that you have to be somebody who's closed off, and you totally shut them out. That's not what I'm saying whatsoever. At the same time, I'm not saying that you have to be someone of just because they're mad, well, now you have to be mad. That's also just as unhealthy, so watch out for that. As any new debut author, I, for good or for bad, have been looking at reviews online 'cause you wanna know, are, are people gonna like the book?
- 19:48 – 22:52
A reader review and the core message: regulate first, then communicate
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's the whole... You get very nervous. Are, are, are you gonna deliver on the message? And the reviews have been so kind and wonderful, and there was one that hit me yesterday that I randomly saw that I wanted to share with you. It's very short. I know you can listen to it. Just bear with me. I know you can do it. Listen. "You are not a target. I was once told by my husband, 'You are an easy target, and everyone knows it.' Time and again, I walked away defeated, even with my children. Jefferson showed me what I lacked was communication skills. From his social media, I started applying these answers to difficult situations. Let me be clear. This is not a book of his social media quips." That's what I thought it would be. "No, it is learning to understand where people are and to adequately communicate with them. It's teaching to deepen relationships by way of strong communication skills. You are not a weak person for purchasing this book. You are strong and courageous for recognizing there is a better way to bridge a gap, create healthy boundaries that work, to not get sucked down a rabbit hole, to not think you've lost your mind. I highly recommend, and I'm starting my second read-through. Kindle edition is an easy read. Bless you, Jefferson, for exhibiting love for people." I, I was just taken aback by it. I was totally blown away by this. I have no clue who this person is. In fact, they didn't even leave their name. It just says "Verified Purchaser." This is my point with this is I want you to know where to go in your mind when conflict comes your way. You are not a target, and if you felt like you've been your whole life, this is where it stops. Rule number one in my book, there are three rules. It's rule number one, say it with control. Number two, say it with confidence. Number three, say it to connect. And the whole focus of rule number one is you can't say anything about what I teach you, whether it's my phrases, my quips, my little words, everything that I, I, I can give you. None of it matters if you do not say it with control, if you do not first regulate yourself. So we're gonna talk about, in this episode, what I want you to think about when conflict comes your way. Any time that somebody says something that you weren't expecting, your body naturally, through its biology, reacts. People think that fight or flight is something that has to happen when you come with physical contact. No, that's not true. It happens every day in these little micro moments, even when somebody just flatly disagrees with you. When somebody disagrees with your opinion, or they say something you don't like, or they call you an ugly name, your body goes, "Hey, brain, I, I didn't like that." And the brain goes, "Give me a second. Yeah, no, we definitely didn't like that." And it naturally reacts. You have a scowl on your face. You wanna say something
- 22:52 – 25:54
Breath as your “first word”: labeling triggers as non-threatening
- JFJefferson Fisher
back. You get heated. Your neck and jaw get tense. All biological, all normal, all natural. So what do you do with that? Rule number one in my book is you use your breath as a first word that you say, and the reason why is because it adds distance between what they say and how you respond, which gives you time to regulate yourself, to think of the quips that I give you and the sentences I give you, and it also mutu- the other benefit is it allows the other person to calm down theirs as well. Gives time for that analytical side to take over. Every day, there are little things that tell your body, "I am threatened." Somebody cuts in front of you in traffic. Somebody merges. Somebody's riding on your bumper. Your body goes, "I am threatened." That's where road rage comes from. "I feel threatened in this environment." When you're talking with your kids, when somebody, um, says something to you that, that they disagree with your opinion, they dismiss your idea. You don't like that. Your body's saying, "Hey, that feels threatening to me." I want you to do something for me right now. Now, if you're driving, don't worry about it. If you're walking on the treadmill, don't worry about it. You can do it later, or do it in your head with me right now. I want you to think of Behavior that somebody does that really, really upsets you, and we're gonna put a label on it. For example, maybe it's disrespect, dismissive, condescending, belittling, rude. Whatever it is, make it yours. What is a behavior that somebody exhibits that really just, just feels like it sets you off? That just, you just explode when somebody does this to you. You got it? You find that word. Now, write it down, and right next to it, I want you to write, "Does not threaten me." Does not threaten me. So the sentence would be, "Dismissiveness does not threaten me. Rude comments, backtalk, insults do not threaten me." This is the mindset I want you to have when this kind of stuff comes up in your life. Why? Because it is telling your body of, "Hey, when somebody raises their voice, that doesn't threaten me. When somebody calls me that, the way I'm reacting and telling my body is, 'Hey, this does not threaten me.'" That's what you're doing with your breath in that moment. That's why we give it time to tell your body, "What is happening in front of me is not a threat." Right? It's this idea that, um, you know, you have... You've seen the big animals, uh, whether it's a lion or an elephant or something, they have, like some, maybe a little dog or something. It... They, they just go, "What is this?" It's like a, a little animal coming up to a big animal. Th- they're not threatened in any way. That's the whole mindset here of,
- 25:54 – 33:16
San Diego airport story: responding to rudeness with reflective questions
- JFJefferson Fisher
"Hey, what you're doing is, this isn't threatening to me. I'm seeing right through it." Cool? I'm gonna tell you a quick story right now that, um, I haven't... I don't think I've ever shared. This was, oh, maybe three weeks ago or so, and where was I? I might've, uh... I think it was in S- San Diego Airport. I was in the San Diego Airport. It may have been San Diego. Everything's bl- blurring, blending together at this moment, and it's early. Give me a break. Is I got through security at TSA and went, and I was looking for my gate. Looking for my gate, and I kept following the signs, and then all of a sudden, I was outside of it, outside of the, the security. The gate, the terminal... It wasn't the terminal. The gate was actually in a separate terminal, and I had just walked myself all the way through. I had already gone through security. I had already gone through all the, the check and the getting your stuff out and ready and giving your ID. I had... I started walking out, and I passed this exit where it goes, you know, y- the point of no return, where it has a red line there at the airport. And I walk out of it, and all of a sudden, uh, this is me by myself, and I look, and I go... I say this out loud. I go, "Oh, my gosh. I gotta do this all over again." Because I have to know... I'm going further down where a separate terminal is. And I say, "Oh, my gosh. I s- I gotta do this all over again." And a voice that I had no clue where it was coming from, female voice goes, "That's why you should read the signs, sir." And I'm trying to find who that is, and I turn and look, and as I'm looking, she goes, "You have no one to blame but yourself, sir. That's why we have signs." I don't know if you're feeling this just hearing it to me. Just the way the tone came across was so condescending and unexpected and unnecessary. You ever had that? "That's why we have signs, sir. You have no one to blame but yourself." And I remember being just taken aback. Uh, "Who, who, who are you?" And it was a TSA agent. Now, if you're a TSA agent, I know not everybody is rough and can be terrible, and I... Hey, I'm an attorney, for crying out loud. Not all attorneys are bad. There are some TSA agents that are wonderful. There are some people that are bad. We all have bad apples in every profession. This one right here, this lady, she was a middle-aged lady, uh, just looked so smug when, soon as she said that. And this is what... My, my body wanted to come back with some really good zingers in that moment. I wanted to say a few things to her, because it was really rude. It was condescend- it was unnecessary. And this is what I did. Of course, I have to practice what I preach, right? I gave it... I looked at her for, like, five seconds trying to figure out, is this... Did she say that? And I just give it time, and now she's sitting back and blinking and looking at me. Her smile is gone. And this is what I asked her. I said, "How do you feel when you say that kind of thing to someone? Is it... Does it give you joy?" That's what I said, like, verbatim. And immediately, she got red, like, "Um, uh," and just got red in the face and apologized right there. I didn't have to prompt anything. She goes, "I, I'm, I'm sor- I'm sorry, sir. You're, you're right. I... That wasn't kind. You're, you're right, sir. I'm s- I'm sorry. Yes, you, you, you can find the terminal if you go straight down." And now she was in helping mode. Now she was in helping mode. "You can go right here, and this is where it's gonna be." I would say, "Oh. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. All right. Well, you have a wonderful day." You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not the outlet for somebody to release all of their frustrations and their angers and their smugness on you. These tools work. This is why I talk about them. That's why I feel so passionate about sharing these. You had the choice right in that moment when somebody says something ugly, when they're the TSA agent in your life. How are you going to react? What are you going to say to that person? Are you going to allow them to just press your remote control and manipulate all your emotions? I had a choice. You have a choice. Is that going to ruin your day? I just can't believe you'd say that. Excuse me? Is that what... Excuse me, are you talking to me? You see how it easily could go the other way when you give in to that fight or flight, when you don't use your breath, when you don't regulate yourself. If you do not say things with control, it doesn't matter what kind of tip I can give you. It's not going to work. It ain't going to work. You have to say it with control. You are not a target. I hope that this is a good reminder for you wherever you are. I can give you lots of tools and tips on what to say, and we have different podcast episodes on that, and I'm going to continue to give you podcast episodes on this. And I want to make sure that you know and you hear, and really the message is very simple for today. You are not a target. When that happens, I want you to go to your breath, regulate yourself, and then use the questions that I've taught you. These are questions like, did you mean? Did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to insult me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me? Or you give it time, and then you ask somebody a question of intent. How did you expect me to react to that? I could have said that to her. How did you want me to respond to that? How does it make you feel? Imagine being the person who would say that to someone. These ways of responding to rude behavior that is actually not a response. It's a question. You're not giving them matters of substance. I'm not saying, let me, you spit in my eye, let me spit back in yours. No, it is a reflection of their own behavior and character. And nine times out of 10, the other person sees that because they, because you're giving them time to, are seeing, it's like the blood, the red, it's not blood, the red comes out of their system. You know, where somebody's seeing red, you have to give them time for that to go away. Come back to normal. Come back. I know that's not who you are. People are not, people are far better than we give them a chance to be. Why? Because we know that in ourselves. So when you have the patience and the discipline to get to that, you're going to have a better communication and a better relationship and a better life because of that. Cool? All right. You are not a target. Hope you have a wonderful day.
- 33:16 – 41:34
Control the pace: silence, listening, and the power of the pause (interview segment)
- SPSpeaker
When I'm in a conversation that I feel like I'm, it's getting away from me, let's say that. That could be a sales negotiation. It could be a conversation with a friend, you name it. I feel like in my case, most of the time, it's speeding up faster than I want it to. You talk about this in rule one, number six is control the pace. And as I listen to you, I mean, you're very cognizant even of your pace and the way that you communicate even on the show today and even in your content. You do. You're actually a little faster when you do the content from your car than you are right now on the show. You're even a pace slower today than you are in your car. So I watch that tonality and pacing. Let's talk about that in a conversation because when emotions run high oftentimes for me, I feel like the conversation is speeding up where my intellect is now not quite as sharp as my emotions are running, if that makes any sense. So what are strategies to control the pace and what does that even mean?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, I love that you picked up on that. Anytime you are getting that fight or flight, and I know all of your listeners, highly educated, they know fight or flight. Whenever you're getting emotionally flooded like that, that's why you're having trouble finding your thoughts and connecting things. And that's why the quicker you get, maybe you've felt it where you're either nervous, same thing when you're really mad, you might stammer and you might go like, no, no, no, that's not, and you're having trouble getting words out. It's because you're just flooded. Your emotions are there. Your logical and analytical side is not. And so what I teach every one of my clients before they go cross-examination and I'm just offering them up to the wolves is a constant reminder of you control the pace, not them. That means no matter how fast somebody is peppering you with questions, the conversation cannot happen any faster than you respond. So whenever they ask you a question and you give a rapid fire answer back or worse, you start to step over their question because you already see where it's going, bad things happen. You say things you don't mean. You say things that are not fully thought out. That's why even in romantic relationships, all of a sudden you blurt something out and you go, oh, that's, oh man, that's not what I mean. And you already knew as soon as it came out of your mouth, you put your foot in your mouth and you messed up. It's because you weren't controlling the pace. That means you need to slow down your words and that you need to leave space between what they said and how you're going and when you're going to respond. There's a difference if you were to ask me, if you said, hey Jefferson, how was your day? And I said, good, it was real good. I mean, it was really good, thanks. Versus, hey Jefferson, how was your day? And I said It was good. It was a good day. Like, you can just hear the difference in which one listened to the question, which one thought about the answer, which one makes the other person feel acknowledged or heard. Same thing with, that's why rule number one is say with control. If you go down and let's say you're, you're at work and all of a sudden you go, "What's wrong? What happened? What, what, what's going on?" And you, all you're sensing and telling the other person is you're grasping for control versus you come in, take a breath, and then you're saying, "All right. What happened? Give it to me." Like, people are looking, like we said, for those emotional anchors. So what I teach is let your breath be the first word that you say. That's how you set the pace of a conversation. So where your first word would be, put a breath in its place. And what's that gonna do is keep your analytical side engaged into where you do not allow yourself emotionally, to get emotionally flooded. And the bene- the second benefit is neither does the other person, because now you are also injecting the time and forcing them to slow down.
- SPSpeaker
Would you agree that an, an inability to listen is probably the biggest mistake people make when trying to communicate effectively?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I, I mean, listening is part of communication. People think that communicating is often what we send out. It's not. It's, it's really what, more about what we accept.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
In my view, you think about it like if you're gonna write a letter. Like, you, you get a letter in the mail. Well, you can't read that letter and write a response at the same time. Well, that's what we do all the time.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, every, every day. We're not really reading what they're saying. We're either anticipating what they're gonna say or we don't care what they're gonna say. We're just focused on writing the letter. And that inhibits our ability to fully appreciate and fully understand the other person. The, it, and it truly is a habit of listening. I, I, I mean, I gotta practice it all the time. Mine is a little bit different because it's part of my profession. So when I ask witnesses things, I am listening because if I don't, they could tell me something that's very good for my case, and I miss it because I'm writing down a note or I'm focused on what my next question's gonna be, just like you were talking about. But the power to listen not only shows that you're acknowledging them, which makes them want to tell you more, it is crucial to exchange ideas.
- SPSpeaker
And building on, on that idea then, uh, of, again, of listening and, and, and being thoughtful in a conversation-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... what I found from podcasting, having conversations with people, interviewing people, having people, um, you know, interview me, one thing I notice a lot of people are scared of is silence. Um, they, you know, when, when you ask a question or somebody gives an answer, a lot of the time people are scared to take two, three, five seconds to process what the other person said, think consciously about what they're gonna say before they say it. A lot of people, I feel, are, are very, uh, self-aware of how long it takes to reply, and they wanna look like they, boom, they're on it. They have the perfect answer, that they're, you know, that they're super smart, they're, they're super attentive. But in reality, to me, when I see someone pause, maybe look up, take a few seconds, I almost value what they're going to say to me even more than if they replied in an instant.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, very good. Yeah. That's, that's exactly right. So one of, um, the tips that I push when I go s- speaking at different places is when you let your breath be your first word, and that sounds kinda, like, hippy-dippy-ish, but it, I mean, it's really a thing. And I, I- it's what I tell my clients, it's what I practice, is if my breath is my first word, the first thing that I say, it makes a difference in how it, it per- how it is perceived that I received that information. So if you were to ask me, uh, I see that in your, in your screen, you say, "Well, Jefferson, do you like The Beatles?" Right? Okay. And if I just immediately said, "Yeah."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It, I mean, it just, it makes it seem like I didn't really put any thought into it, right? It was just this knee-jerk reaction. Versus if you said, "Jefferson, do you like The Beatles?" And I went, "Yeah, I like The Beatles."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, it, it all of, all of a sudden you're like, oh, okay, yeah, he just, he just searched in his mind for something. He really took the time. You see this a lot in panels. Like, if there's a panel of four or five people, the person who gets the question, takes a breath, and takes their time, and then responds-
- SPSpeaker
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you have them waiting. Like, they're just-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you have a captive audience because they're waiting for what you're going to say. And it's makes, makes it much more impactful.
- 41:34 – 48:00
Dealing with interrupters and non-listeners: reframe and set a listening boundary
- SPSpeaker
No, absolutely, man. I, I absolutely love that. And I wonder then, if we are dealing with someone, you know, in that situation where they're talking back at us, we finish our thought and they're almost into theirs before we could even finish ours. You know, they're cutting over us, they can't wait to talk, and you're thinking, "They're not listening to me. They're just queuing up what they're gonna say next when I'm talking." How do we deal with someone like that and turn that conversation into an effective one or an effective argument? How do we combat when we can tell that someone's not listening to us?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, I mean, se- several things go through my head. It's, it's definitely contextual.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
The, the first thing that goes into my head is why are we talking to this person?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
But, but let's say it's a, it's a good conversation, and they- Are certainly not interested in what you have to say. Let's say it's somebody who's pushing their point or wanting to prove a point, and they're wanting you to, um, contribute in some way. A lot of the time, I, the first thing I'll ask is, "Is this something you need me to agree with?" I'll ask that. I'll say, "Is this something you need me to, to agree on?" And typically they'll say, "No, no, I don't, I mean, I just needed to tell you about, you know, X, Y." Well [laughs] okay. Because before s- I don't, I'm not telling them this, but beforehand they're pushing, you know, they're pushing, pushing. "Well, don't you think?" "Well, why don't you..." Like, every time you try to explain yourself, they're cutting you off to try and corner you to eventually just concede to their point. Typically, I get rid of that by the first, second question of saying, "Is, is this some- Hey, just let me, is this something that you're needing me to, to a- for, for us to... Is this something we're needing to agree on?" That's what I'll ask, "Is this something we need to agree on?"
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
When I ask that, it totally changes the frame of, um, them saying, "Actually, no, um, no, we're just having a discussion." Great. Good.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Me too. If somebody is pushing, um, interrupting you all the time, I, I have a kind of a, what's the word, some, some arrows in my quiver of how I, I handle that. And usually I let them interrupt the first time, but the second time I will tell them calmly, say, "I, I can't hear you when you interrupt me."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So I'll say, "Hey, look, uh, Lewis, I c- hey, man, I, I can't hear you when you interrupt me."
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And most of the time, it's the same way it works with my kids. Like, when my daughter or my son have a very whiny voice on something and they come in whining, I'll say, "Uh-uh, I can't, I can't hear you. I can't hear you when you talk like that." Voomp, all of a sudden it changes.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They go right back to how they were. It's just, it's just trying to guide them. "And if you want me to hear what you're saying, you're gonna have to, to talk in a certain way."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. I mean, that, that sounds far more effective than just actively tell, you know, trying to shout louder than the other person. And I think-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... that's when a, a conversation starts to become more of a fight. And ultimately when it becomes a fight, no one's winning that argument.
- JFJefferson Fisher
No. Nobody's winning that. Then it just becomes, just, then it just becomes worse. But it's, it's, uh, to really let people know that so much of their communication in the conflict has to deal with us, like how, how we... I can control how my conversations generally go.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
If somebody's being ugly to me, rude, I'm in complete control whether they have my emotions or not, I'm gonna allow them to, to affect me. And, and a lot of that is your pace. It, I mean, just like we talked about, I, I slow everything down. My voice is gonna get lower. I'm gonna go slower. I'm more interested in why are they saying this, rather than thinking of the next thing to say. And that, that will, um, that's good for all things in life, but it certainly has helped me.
- SPSpeaker
I was gonna s- as you were talking about that then, um, I was, I w- I was thinking that, uh, you know, since we jumped on this call, you have, you know, your, your, your pace has been quite slow. You've, you know-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... you've in a deeper voice. And what I feel as though it's doing to me is it's almost drawing me closer to the screen.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
And I'm, I'm sort of leaning in and, and, you know, I, I'm leaning in further to what you've gotta say, and it's, you know, it's making me pay more attention to you. When you're talking to someone, are you, is, are things like that something that you're always conscious of, or does this, is this just sort of second nature to you now? Or do you know when to play on certain things, when to use little tactics like that?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, I'm just trying to, I know it's late over in your time-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... so I'm just trying to, trying to m- make sure it's easy for you to go to sleep.
- 48:00 – 59:54
Persuasion vs manipulation, plus finding authenticity and emotional intelligence
- SPSpeaker
I, I wonder then, we- we're talking about all these little techniques. Um, a lot of people might, you know, they might be listening to you talk about these techniques, like certain things you'll say, slowing your voice down, and they might be thinking, "That's a little bit sneaky. I wonder if anyone's ever used that on me." What would you say to the argument, and I have heard people pose this argument, that books and content on persuasion, on negotiation, um, I've heard some people, you know, describe them as-
- SPSpeaker
... m- m- manipulative-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm. Mm.
- SPSpeaker
Um, and really put a, a negative spin on it rather than a, than a positive spin. It's a subject I've always been very interested in, you know. I've, uh, years ago when I read, um, Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... it's something I've always been interested in. But I have heard people take the opposite sort of stance on it. What would you say to those people?
- JFJefferson Fisher
I would say I hear you and I see where you're coming from-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... because there are certainly aspects of, I, I'm gonna call it kind of the darker [laughs] the, the darker alleys, back alleys of communication, and that are the people who really push, you know, sales techniques or different ways to keep people on the phone, get people to say yes. You're taking advantage of people who might be what they call more weak-minded, you know, the, somebody who's just very susceptible to going along with whatever you say. That, to me, can be manipulative, and there's certainly people that manipulate in conversation. I would like to think that I am part of the light in communication, and that means I, I wanna teach people to speak with compassion and empathy and grace for, for the other person. And when I say, like, okay, if I'm gonna slow my words, make somebody feel more invited, more attentive, I feel like those are all things I want them to feel 'cause I, I want them to know that I'm paying attention. I think of, like, my kids. If I need to calm my kids down or if I need to tell them something important, that's exactly the kinda tone that I'm, I'm going to, to take. Because in some sense, if you're g- if you're the leader in your life, y- it's up to you to guide people and shepherd people into making them feel safe and together, and that's, that's what I try to push out of these positive experiences in interactions that you can actually predict, uh, based solely upon how you, you communicate. Are there people who would use it to the other's disadvantage? Absolutely, and those people I can't help because they have bad intent and bad motive. Now, that I can't fix, but I, I can certainly help you learn to acknowledge somebody, to make them feel more valued, to value yourself, to feel like you can stand up for yourself, lay more boundaries. All these things that I think are much more on the, the healthier side of the communication.
- SPSpeaker
What about for people who struggle to find their authentic voice?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. You find that when people are having a hard time of just being who they are, of just wanting to represent themselves, or you feel like they're having to be somebody that they're not?
- SPSpeaker
Well, I feel like m- I mean, in my, in my own personal life, you know, I have friends that run the gamut on the spectrum of self-awareness.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Um, I have some fr- I, I personally, I would consider myself very self-aware.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Um, whereas I have other friends that seem to lack a degree of self-awareness.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
You know, they kind of, um, they seem very tethered to, like, rote behaviors, you know. Um, they don't seem to update their, like, preferences very regularly.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, yeah, there just, there just seems to be, like, a, a lack of self-awareness, and I feel like there's, like, a ... in between, you know, the external observer and who they might actually really be inside, there seems to be, I guess, what's sometimes referred to as, like, a block.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I think that people are born with a certain default of emotional awareness. My son is incredibly empathetic. I mean, he can't... He's kind of like me. When we, if there's a movie and there's a sad part, we're both crying. I mean, uh, we just, if something, uh, we're, we're just extremely sensitive to other emotions. If something's happening, he's thinking of, well, how's that going to affect his sister?
- SPSpeaker
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Now, his younger sister, who's a year and a half younger, she could care less about your emotions. She's not once thinking about how anything's going to affect you. It's kind of that, uh, here's a good way of thinking it. Here in, in, um, LA traffic's a little bit different, but in, in Texas, like, if you're driving in the left lane, all right, where you're supposed to go fast, and people are backing up behind you, like me, oh my gosh, I'm definitely gonna move in the right lane. I'm like, "I'm so sorry. Let me get out." I, I feel, I feel that for you. I've also been in the cars with friends where it didn't bother them at all.
- SPSpeaker
That's such a great example.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Or you're passing people, and they're just driving in the left lane. They have the whole entire right lane.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They could drive, but they're not, and they never, they're just never gonna think about it. And it's not their fault. It's just they don't have a higher level default of emotional... They just, it's n- it's not intentional. They just don't have it. And so it is like how everybody has different skillsets. Like, you don't want me doing your electrical work. You don't want me building your birdhouse. Um, but there are other people who are very skilled at that, and so we all have just different defaults, kind of like a soundboard in a studio, and I think that somebody, like in my world, I, and just in yours, I feel like I have more s- emotional awareness. Others do not. That doesn't mean it can't be learned. I think the first step to learning is understanding that there's a level of curiosity you may not be looking for-
- SPSpeaker
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... or that you haven't asked for, um, to, to start there. But yes, to me, it's the left hand, left h- hand lane drivers. I can't stand it. I'm like, how could you not? I guess I'll go to the right lane and move around you.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. Oh my God, it's such a good, such a good, fantastic example of a complete lack of emotional intelligence. [laughs]
- 59:54 – 1:05:39
Scripts for difficult conversations: skip small talk, ask for help, close with connection
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. When it's time for that difficult conversation, number one, don't begin with, "How are you? How are things?" Difficult conversations are not the time for small talk. The only thing that should come out of your mouth is, "Thank you for making the time to talk with me." Number two, follow that up with, "I need your help. I need your help knowing how to feel about this. I need your help knowing what to do about this." When you say, "I need your help," it takes it from opponents to teammates. And number three, end with how you feel about the conversation. "I feel better having talked with you. I feel more settled after discussing this." And the key is you then end it with, "So how about you?" When you say, "How about you?" you are getting them to connect with you, to say, "How do you feel about this conversation? Do you feel better about it, or do we need to continue to talk?" Now, when I get questions about how to have a difficult conversation, it typically revolves around having to deliver bad news, meaning there is something negative that you need to say to someone and you know they are not gonna like it. You know they're going to get upset, it's going to bother them, it's going to ruin the mood, it's going to ruin the, the atmosphere or, or possibly ruin the relationship.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Or you see it with how to address a sensitive topic. Maybe it's something that's been laid heavy on your heart and you don't know how to start, or something that's been bothering you and you know it's for the best that you talk to this other person about it and you just don't know where to begin. You remove the difficult from difficult conversations when you break it down into bite-sized pieces that are going to connect you to that other person. Now, typically in my life where I see difficult conversations is when I have to deliver bad news to a client. You know, not every case is perfect and not every client is a good client, and not every case is a good case. The law applies to the facts, so sometimes you have to tell them, "I'm sorry, but the law doesn't allow this," or, "The law is against you on this case." So that just is part of normal life. And how you handle that conversation, meaning not just what you say, but more importantly how you say it, can mean the difference between making what comes after the difficult conversation easier or just more difficult. Now, the strategy does change slightly depending on whether you need to deliver bad news or simply discuss a sensitive topic. When it comes to strictly bad news, the faster you get that bad news out, the better the conversation is going to go. For example, if you have to fire someone, the first thing out of your mouth should be, "I have bad news." Or you need to say something that's hard for them to hear, you tell them that. "This is going to be hard to hear. This is going to be a difficult conversation. This is not going to be fun for us to talk about." You give them a pause and then you deliver the bad news. In that moment, directness is also kindness. All right? And when it comes to sensitive topics, it's much easier to follow steps one, two and three, where you're going to say, "Thank you for talking with me. Um, I need your help. I feel better about this." So let's go through a everyday typical conversation where you need to say something that's hard for them to hear. So let's assume you need to have a difficult conversation with someone and let's make it about something they said, a comment they made at a dinner with friends last week. You've tried to let it go, but it's just not happening and you know that you need to talk with them about it. If you're following rule number one, what you're not going to do is begin with, "So how was work? How was work today?" When you know good and well that's not at all what you really care about. Because what's worse is when you make them talk about work and then you just drop the hammer and say, "Oh, that's nice. Listen, you remember what you said last week?" That's a safe way to set this up for failure. Instead, what you're gonna do is set aside time and say, "Hey, when you have a moment, can we talk about something?" Next you're gonna go to rule number two: I need your help. "I need your help knowing how to feel about a comment you made at dinner last week. I've tried to let it go. I have dealt with it and, and just kind of simmered on it in my mind and I need your help with it." Then have that conversation. Tell them what they said. Tell them how it made you feel. And that's the difficult part is that you have to express your own thoughts and nobody can do that for you. But what makes it easier is when you lead with, "I need your help," people love to be helpful. They want to be helpful. Rather than coming in and making them defensive and, and going into attack mode, when you can say, "I need your help," it doesn't feel like you're sitting on two separate sides of the table, right? It makes you feel like you've instead scooted up a chair beside you and said, "Let's sit together and look at this problem that's on the table in front of us and let's work through it together." And when you're able to have that conversation and say what you need to say and get it all out, or maybe you just need to hear their perspective of what they meant by their comment last week, it's gonna make it better and bring you closer together because it's the difficult conversations that allow you the chance to dive deeper into your relationship and grow and build. And then after you've had that conversation, number three, you're going to end with, "I feel X." I feel better. I feel relieved. I feel more settled. I feel better knowing your perspective or where you're coming from in it. And then you ask, "How about you?" Or, "How are you feeling? What do you think?" Get that connection just a little bit closer to s- to, to wrap it up in a bow and say, "Hey, we just went through something that, that was a little difficult. We went through something
- 1:05:39 – 1:20:22
High-stakes conflict toolkit: observe don’t absorb, breathe first, and say less
- JFJefferson Fisher
that was not easy and let's walk out of it hand in hand. Let's walk out of it together." Whatever it is, you have that meeting of the minds to say, "I feel okay about this. You feel okay about this? Got it? Good." When we talk about difficult high-stress conflict, I'm f- I'm talking about not just the little bitty everyday arguments. I'm talking about something that's on your plate that's coming up right now and you go, "Jefferson, I don't know how to handle this. I, I don't know what to do. I, I'm afraid I'm gonna shut down. I'm afraid I'm gonna get nervous." I'm gonna tell you exactly what I tell every single one of my clients. You ready? Number one, it is not what you say. It is not anything to do with your mouth. It has everything to do with your nervous system. And the key here is instead of absorbing, you're observing. I'm gonna say it again. Instead of absorbing, you're observing. If you wanna h- handle conflict at a different level of consciousness that you did not know you could handle it, it is going to be the key of not absorbing what they say, but observing what they say. All right? Say it with me. Say it with me wherever you are. It's not absorbing, it's observing. All right? What does that mean? I want you to think, this is just coming to me right now. I want you to think you're in the grocery store and you have your, your cart with you and you're going through and you... Or maybe, maybe you're somebody who likes to bag, you know. You, you, you have a... I'm, I'm all for environmentally friendly stuff too, though it's hard here in Texas, and you have your cart.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And you just start putting things on the shelf or grabbing things off the shelf and putting it in your basket that you, you don't even want. Right? You don't even want. And things just start to come in. You're like, "Yeah, I... You know what? I'm gonna take their belittling opinion of me. I'm gonna put it in my cart. You know what? I'm gonna take their side-eye, put it in my cart. I'm gonna take that, that disrespectful tone and put that in my cart." And you just keep going all the way through, aisle by aisle, and then you go to checkout, which is actually a, a very good word for this. Yeah, you, you, you mentally check out, and you know what checks in? Your nervous system, your emotions, and they just flood you in that moment. And, and in, in that point in time, you have absorbed, you have taken on so many things that there's nothing left for you. You're not observing. You're not seeing what's happening. You're just in it. You're just in it, and you are helpless to it. It is no longer you who controls the emotions. The emotions are now controlling you, and there's no telling what you're gonna say. There's no th- there's no... Nobody can guess what's gonna come out of your mouth or what's going to happen because you're not there. You are checked out. So when I tell my clients, "Hey, when you're in the chair and somebody is... the other attorney's asking you questions, there's gonna be a time where all of a sudden you're tempted to go in it, to, to, to go down the spiral and look inside and look at yourself and feel emotions and get heated because you're gonna start taking things personally. You're going to start absorbing what they're saying." No, no, no, no. If you want to handle this the right way, the proper way in conflict, you have to start observing. What does that mean? That means you're going to approach the conversation at a different level of consciousness that you have before. That means instead of going, "How, how could he say that to me? Oh my gosh, I'm..." Uh, and you start holding your breath, and you start getting flustered, and you get nervous, or maybe you tear up. It's because you're not seeing it as, "Huh, I wonder why he's asking me this. I wonder why she's saying that. I wonder where they're going with this." Look for the intent behind the words, the intent behind the words. When you are observing what's happening, in some sense being an attached observer... I've said this before, where y- it's like you are sitting in a movie theater with your popcorn, and you're watching the conversation take place, and that puts you in a different perspective of looking at the person who's talking to you and thinking, "I wonder why that character is saying this. I wonder what the plot is. I wonder what the narrative is. I, I wonder what scene is coming up next." And you see how when you look at it that way, you have full control. You're now the director, the producer, the screenwriter of exactly what happens next, and then it's just action, [claps] and you're able to be in the state of mind of, "Hey, I'm observing the conversation." And from there, that gives you a chance to let your body regulate because you're not in it. You are seeing it. You're seeing the conversation. Number two, what I teach every one of my clients, is something that's at the forefront of my book, The Next Conversation: Argue Less, Talk More. And rule number one when I say say it with control, and that is let your breath [inhales] be the first word that you say. I've been talking a little fast here in this podcast, which is unlike me. I think... I, I'll tell you why. I drank too much coffee this morning, too much coffee, admittedly. Usually, I talk pretty slow. All right? Can you hear how just the way I'm talking now and how I'm slowing down just a little bit might, in a micro percentage, also slow you down a little bit? Maybe, you know, the neural activity in your brain is starting to slow down just a little bit. Maybe you feel a little bit more relaxed at me speaking a little more slowly. When I put [inhales] [exhales] breath before my words, it is making sure that I am regulating myself, and even more importantly, I am showing you, I am showing you that I am regulated, that I am in control, and what I'm about to say, I've chosen. I've chosen those words. Makes a very big difference. So when I teach my clients, "Hey, don't get wrapped up. Don't try and step on somebody's question. Don't try to interrupt them. Let them get it out," and then you observe the question, observe the, the interaction, take a breath, [inhales] and then choose what you want to say. You are in complete control of the pace of any conversation. Nobody can make you say anything you don't want to say, and nobody can make you say it at a time you don't want to say it. That choice is yours. That choice is yours. And I cannot tell you how many clients I have seen come to find, accept, and then grow in their own power and their own sense of value and worth of, "Wow, I, I get to choose if I say anything, and you know what? If I wanna wait 30 seconds before I say something, I can do that." Uh, it's, it is a freeing feeling to know, "Mm, you know, I'm gonna think about this. Let me chew on this question for a second." Just that alone, the ability to say that, says, "Oh, no, no. I'm, I'm operating at a different level you don't know about. No, I'm, I'm not who you thought I was. I know exactly what I'm doing. I'm going to choose my words, and I'm going to show you that what I'm about to say is something that I absolutely mean and I'm saying with intention." All right? You... Can you feel the difference? Say, what kind of breath are we talking about? I've run through this breath before. It's always good to do it because it's something that is good for me too. It's a conversational breath, and what it does, it's based on a physiological sigh, which is a double... [inhales] Well, that kind of sounded weird. Double inhalation. And double inhalation. So you're breathing, you're inhaling twice. All right, so you ready with me? We're gonna breathe through your nose. Wherever you are, just do it. Don't worry about it. People might look at you, don't worry. Ready? We're gonna breathe in through your nose about two to three seconds. [inhales] One more at the top [inhales] and then let out through your nose. [exhales] My guess is you're starting to come down a little bit. Maybe your shoulders relaxed a little bit. It's the feeling that mimics a sigh. When you use that kind of breath, and I promise you, you continue to do it while I'm talking right now, you'll see that you get really good at it. You can do it anytime. The most crucial part for me is when I teach my clients to do it, is before they answer the question, just take two seconds or one second. What we like to say here in the South is just say one Mississippi. In other words, in, in your head you're gonna go, "Mississippi." Like, well, you can use your own name if you have a long name. You know, just whatever it is, it's, it's to get you in the mindset of taking a beat, a moment, take that breath, and choose what you want to say. It is always going to be better. And number three, the third thing that I teach every single one of my clients is to use less words. Say less. Now, in the legal context, if my witness starts to give a very long answer, you know what happens? Every... Why'd I say it like that? Happens? [chuckles] What happens is I guarantee them that the opposing attorney is now going to slice up that long answer they just gave and turn that into five more questions, 10 more questions. The shorter the answer, the stronger, more clear it is every single time. If I give you an answer that is short and concise, you can do nothing with it. You can do nothing with it. Hear the difference. So I might have a client who I've trained, and we, we practice a lot, and when she might take a breath and answer a question and go, "No," and that's it. That's the only answer. What the, what can the other attorney do? Nothing. They can't do anything with it. They can only go to their next question. But I've also had it, despite my training and teaching, where somebody goes, "You know, I'm not sure. You know, that it was just such a hectic day and, you know, I forgot to go pick up the eggs, and my, and my dog was sick and, you know, he just, it, it just, you know, peanut butter messes up his system, and I, I just find that..." And you're going, and I'm going, "Oh my gosh. What is happening?" So that happens. That happens because people are, are human, right? So we have to take a break and I go, "What, what are we doing? Come on. Get back in it with me." So you see the difference in w- if somebody's giving a very long answer, some practical things happen. One is I'm giv- the witness is giving more information than is needed, right? Unnecessary information, which means the other person... Let's put this in everyday application. Everyday people are going to get confused as to what the answer is. They're going to fill in their own assumptions of why you're not answering it directly. They're going to hear that there's just more words, which just automatically leads to the possibility of more confusion and more miscommunication. We don't want that. We want short, concise. So I like to say it when I, when I teach, is that if I ask you, "Do you have the time? Do you know what time it is?" That means I'm going to ask you to stop and ask that question in your mind. Do I know what time it is? What am I asking? Do you know what time it is? And if you give me the time, "Oh, it's, um, 8:03," that's the wrong answer. That's the wrong answer. If I say, "Do you know the time?" The answer is, "Yes, I do." It's that detailed. It is that detailed because in my world, it has to be that detailed. You have to be. In an everyday conversation, those high stake, high emotion, just when everything is on the, the table, everything's on the line, every little word of clarity matters a great deal, and I have to make sure that you're prepared. So when you condense your words into something that is very short, very concise, the longer of an answer you give, the more opportunity there is for miscommunication, more opportunity there is for somebody to take your answer and twist it. Here's an example. Have you ever been in a text argument with somebody? I have. I know you have. And it, n- they just sent you something and you're like, "Oh, really?" And you just start texting on your phone, just going after it, and you write a paragraph. I'm talking, you just, you hit 'em so good and it's perfect and you're, it's, it's, this is exactly how I feel. And you send it, and they send a text that doesn't even address anything that you said at all. Or maybe they addressed one part that they could defend and like, but they ignored all the rest. It's that same principle. You're giving someone way too much to take and to twist. So if you want to handle high conflict like I teach every one of my clients, you have to keep your answers as short as possible. Answer their question and only their question. All right? Okay. Hey, look, you're, you're ready. You're ready. I know we, we, maybe we're gonna need to talk about this. Let's go grab some coffee. Make sure you get some snacks. Feel good. We're about to go into this deposition room together, and you're gonna do awesome, I promise. What did we talk about today? When it comes to high stakes conversation, number one, observe, don't absorb. Observe, don't absorb. Number two, use your breath. As a first word that you say, slow it down and choose your words. Be intentional with them. Make sure that you are operating on your timeframe, not somebody else's. And number three, say less. Shorten your answers. When you give way too much, you allow the opportunity for somebody to grab onto it, pieces, and say things you didn't mean. You're giving them more to twist. You're giving them more to twist. It's like, uh, giving somebody a long piece of rope. They- they're able to put a bunch of knots in it. But if you just give them a little bit of rope, it... Maybe it's not even enough to do a- a- a- to tie their shoe with, right? It's a big difference. You wanna make sure that you're very short and concise. Man, my, um, examples today are all over the place. We talked about the grocery store, we talked about shoelaces. Man, what a, what a day. What an episode. I am always proud of you, and I hope you use your words for good and for light wherever you are
- 1:20:22 – 1:32:12
Deflecting attacks: mental shields, “trash can” filtering, and handling tears in arguments
- SPSpeaker
When someone is, quote-unquote, "attacking me," or saying nasty things about me that I don't believe are true, or maybe it's just I don't like their wor- way they're saying it and I don't want it to penetrate-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... my heart and my soul-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and be reactive and defensive-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah
- SPSpeaker
... and blah, rigid and frustrated and d- all these things.
- JFJefferson Fisher
When the, when the, when the brow goes like this.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, exactly. One of the psychological or therapeutic, uh, strategies that I've learned is to imagine either a, a field, an energetic field around me that I can see it, but then it bounces off-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay
- SPSpeaker
... the words.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
The intention.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
The energy. It comes and then boink, it just goes around me and-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- SPSpeaker
... like water off a duck.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I feel like there's a Star Wars reference, but yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, exactly.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's exactly right. Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Or what I'll do is I will separate the ego from the self, and I'll have the ego over here next to me psychologically.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And an image of it, the ego of me here.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
And it's like, oh, they're just speaking to the ego.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, there's attachment.
- SPSpeaker
They're just, oh, they're speaking over here.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- SPSpeaker
They're not actually speaking to me.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
Episode duration: 1:32:13
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Transcript of episode Wg2d1dQgEF4
