How to Reset Boundaries in a Long Term Relationship after Tolerating Unhealthy Communication

1. 0:00 – 1:00

   Resetting boundaries after years of tolerating unhealthy communication

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      What if you've already been with someone, so you're in a dynamic with them where you have accepted this way of being communicated to? So it would be a little bit off-putting at that time to say something like, um, "I'm not going to accept you communicating with me this way."

   2. SPSpeaker0:18

      Mm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:18

      Is it just as simple as changing a couple words and saying, "Listen, I know I have accepted this in the past, but I am no longer going to accept having you..." Or is there something else you would say? In other words, you've established a dynamic. It's been five years, three years, 10 years, and that's it. You're not gonna do it anymore. So that's a little bit harder than the first time, right?

   4. SPSpeaker0:40

      Right.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:41

      That, that's why I'm pushing it here, because I know people listening are like, "I would do that the first time, but I've been with this guy," or, "I've been with this lady now for six years, and I have allowed them to walk on me verbally this way for quite a while." That's the toughie, and I'm wondering what you would do in that case.

2. 1:00 – 2:01

   “My choice starts today”: setting a firm boundary without sounding apologetic

   1. SPSpeaker1:00

      So what I would do is I would make it very clear right then and there that... I would begin with something like, "I've made a choice, and that choice starts today," or, "I've made a decision, and that decision starts today." Um, it, it is a this is my bright line of how I'm gonna move forward. So even if it's as simple as I, um... You don't have to go h- well, here's what I don't want people to do. What I don't want to go is, "Hey, I know how, you know, we've been talking in the past, and, you know, y- y- I know you've been talking to me that way, but I'm not gonna allow that anymore this time." Like, that is onl- the people that are intelligent, the people that are, um, and know that they've been taking advantage of you will continue to poke down on you, and they'll make fun of you for saying that kind of stuff. But that's what I don't want. That's more weaker position. Instead, it is a, "I've made a choice, and that choice is going to be instated for the rest of this relationship or the rest

3. 2:01 – 2:40

   Expect pushback: why boundary resistance can mean it’s working

   1. SPSpeaker2:01

      of this conversation." So whenever you can say, "I've made a choice," or, "I am putting this into action," you're using action verbs that say, "I have made a decision, and this decision is gonna be how we move forward," not a just a random, you know, "You're not gonna talk to me that way." But either way, even if you do, people are gonna find ways that the people who enjoyed you not having boundaries are the ones that are gonna be upset by them. So it's, it doesn't mean your boundary is wrong. It just means that it's working. So it's, you're gonna have people that are frustrated that you're changing the dynamic regardless.

4. 2:40 – 4:41

   Communicating with narcissists: recognizing the “praise or provoke” game

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:40

      You, uh, let's take it one level past, and then I wanna ask you some stuff about in the book as well. All of this is in the book, you guys, by the way. It's also in his content, which is basically, here's how you know content is good. When I started on social media, 99% of my videos were me in my car with a camera in my hand, not driving, "Here's some content," and then it went viral. It's exactly how he's gone, and that means it's the content standing on its own, not the curation of it, you know, or the music behind it. You're with a narcissist now. You're with a full-blown narcissist. Now, these are, in my opinion, the most difficult people in the world to communicate with. That and someone who's just patently dishonest all the time in their communication with you. But you're dealing with a narcissist. What do we need to know about narcissists in the first place structurally? Is there anything that you know, if this person's a narcissist, this is structurally who they are, what they do, and then any tactics or techniques in order to navigate conversations with them?

   2. SPSpeaker3:41

      Anytime you are having a conversation with a narcissist, you're playing a game. You, you are on the board, and it's a game of either praise or provoke, meaning that if you are not showering them with praise, Ed, they will turn around and start an argument with you to get you upset because they delight in your frustration just as much as they delight in your praise. They always want that from you. It's that sense of control. Whichever feeling that they can grab from you and suck out of you, that's exactly what they're going to do. It's a game, and it's a, it's a rigged game. And the reason why I say it's rigged, because it looks beatable. Like, we've been in those conversations with narcissists and been on the other side of the table, and you go, "If I can just only get them, if I can just say it this way, I'm gonna get them to understand. I'm gonna get them to apologize. I'm gonna get them to see the light and go, 'Oh, my gosh, yeah, you're so right. I can see how, uh, you are upset

5. 4:41 – 5:42

   Don’t feed the game: short responses and emotional disengagement tactics

   1. SPSpeaker4:41

      by that.'" They're not going to do that. They don't, narcissists just, they don't do empathy. They might know it hurts. They can't care about it. And so the first idea and mindset you need to have is that you're just not going to play the game. You do that by, one, using phrases that are very short and to the point that they can't do anything with. So if you were to just to say, "Got it. Noted. I hear you." Like, something as simple as that, it just kind of puts a wet blanket on the conversation. They can't draw from it. The longer your answer, I, I tell this to all my clients, uh, so it goes really for any communication, but the, the longer your answer, the more questions you're gonna get every time, the more that you're gonna have to say. Like, you've sent that text message to somebody, and it was like a paragraph, and you're like, "Oh, this is the best, most poetic put-together text I've ever sent." And as soon as you send it, all they do is just pick out like one half of a sentence right in the middle, and you're like, "They didn't even address anything that I said." Yeah, that was the point. So you, you,

6. 5:42 – 6:55

   Reputation leverage: shifting a narcissist’s focus to how others will judge them

   1. SPSpeaker5:42

      you, you s- you said too many things. You need to give just a little bit. Two, you need to find ways just to take yourself out of that conversation. Or what I also like to do, and, um, this is, this is a, a go deep moment with me and you here, is that when I am cross-examining a narcissist, typically some type of expert witness, somebody who feels like they just have the ego of ... just out of control that they're the only person who could ever have an opinion, is you use their thoughts about their reputation. So if I'm questioning a witness and he, and I know he's a narcissist, I, I might say, "And you think the jury's gonna like that?" And it might just be me and him in the room. I say, "And you think the jury's gonna like that?" "Well, well, uh..." Because now he's thinking about the jury. Or if I were to say, "If, if you think others are gonna be okay with that," now they're thinking outside of it, because they really don't care about you, they care about the others. And so whenever you can get them to think about their reputation outside of the conversation, they change the dynamic so that they can make themselves feel good about it in that moment.

7. 6:55 – 9:00

   Gracefully exiting conversations: looping back to the opening topic

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:55

      That's very good. What about exiting a conversation? I'm, I'm not good at it. Uh-

   2. SPSpeaker7:02

      You're not good at it?

   3. JFJefferson Fisher7:03

      Well, socially I... Socially, uh, I'm regularly telling a friend or my wife, like, "Don't leave me alone too long," 'cause I don't know how... I don't, I don't... I, I have bu- s- several skills communication-wise, but one of them is not like, "We've sort of tapped out this conversation. We've maxed this one out. Let's, let's exit gracefully." So whether that's on the phone or in person, the only thing I've ever stumbled into is starting to speak in the past tense, but I'd like to know your strategy on that if you do that as well. But like, what do you do? You know what I'm talking about. Everyone's been there.

   4. SPSpeaker7:37

      Yeah.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher7:37

      They're at a cocktail party and you get bumped into this wonderful person. You're eight minutes in. You're like, "I'm gonna be here all night if I can't somehow rotate out of here."

   6. SPSpeaker7:46

      Yeah.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher7:46

      How do you do it?

   8. SPSpeaker7:47

      [laughs] Uh, well, you can just do what we do in the South. I think we just slap our thigh and go, "Well..."

   9. JFJefferson Fisher7:53

      [laughs]

   10. SPSpeaker7:54

       "... yeah. It was good s- you know, better get, better get moving. All right." Um, no. It's, um... A, a real easy trick that, um, I like to teach is that you just loop it. So whatever you began talking about at the beginning, so let's say it's family or work, whatever, it's typically something very surface level like that. You just loop it there at the end. So if you started talking about family, that means you're gonna end with, "Well, I'm glad to hear the family's doing well. I'll, you know, I'll, I'll see you around," or, um, "Look forward to catching up later. Have a good evening." Whatever it is, you just kind of close the loop of whatever you first started talking about. There are some people that also, um, like a method of, of acting like you're the one kind of inconveniencing their time, when you're like, "All right. I'll let you get back to it. You know? All right. Well, I know you're busy." Um, that cuts both ways. Sometimes it, it sounds really disingenuous if it's like, "What do you mean? I don't have anything going on. It's just me and you in the corner here," you know? [laughs]

   11. JFJefferson Fisher8:55

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   12. SPSpeaker8:55

       Um, and so you kind of have to feel that out I, I feel like. But for the people-

8. 9:00 – 9:41

   Using past tense as an exit signal: “It’s been great”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:00

      Do you ever use the past tense like, "I gotta tell you, I've enjoyed this so much. It's been so good to see you"?

   2. SPSpeaker9:05

      Yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher9:05

      Do you do that?

   4. SPSpeaker9:05

      Yeah.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher9:06

      I mean, a- and be sincere about it, but it allows, by past tense phraseology, at least for me-

   6. SPSpeaker9:12

      Yeah

   7. JFJefferson Fisher9:12

      ... if they are actually listening, which maybe they're not, they go, "Oh, we're at the end of this conversation, not in the middle of it anymore."

   8. SPSpeaker9:20

      Yeah. Whenever you can say, "It was," or, "It's been," anytime-

   9. JFJefferson Fisher9:23

      Right

   10. SPSpeaker9:23

       ... you can use past phrases, uh, that is, it's just saying, "Hey, uh, this is our signal that the conversation has now ended. [laughs] We are now talking about it as it's now happened in the past. I'll see you when I see you." Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Uh, that's, that's a great way to do it.

9. 9:41 – 11:44

   Post-conversation reframing: following up to “stamp” the meaning

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:41

      Okay. A few more things I wanna ask you. Can you reframe a conversation after it's over? So it's done. You and I have been texting or we had lunch, let's say, or a sales call that didn't close or whatever. Do you believe that post-conversation you can reframe its meaning to some extent, meaning with a follow-up text or a follow-up phone call? Are you a believer? I do a lot of that, frankly. So, like, throughout my day when I have interactions with people, I really love in the evening circling back with that person and, you know, "I enjoyed our t-..." And being sincere, whatever it was. "I enjoyed our time so much, getting to know about your high school basketball career, you know, the new business you're starting." And I like to frame or stamp a conversation and its meaning, uh, afterwards. Post-framing a conversation, what do you believe about that?

   2. SPSpeaker10:30

      I think it's critical. I, I, I think what it does, i- it... You put the perfect word on it, a stamp on it. It's a great way of, uh, I've always said put a bow on it, uh, to be able to just kind of package that conversation and, and now say, "Let's set it off to the side." Now it's almost a memory. Now it's, it's more than just the transaction. It is now an event that has happened that you and I can both look back on rather than it just a exchange of hands and a handshake and back and forth. If you're able to thank them, show words of gratitude, then you're able to wrap up kind of maybe one sentence, half of a sentence of what you were able to achieve in that conversation. And three, you wanna add on just a little bit of something unique, maybe something that they didn't think you listened to, something about maybe their family or something about, uh, their favorite sports team or the name of their dog. You know, something like that that allows them to j- y- You're sending the message of, "Hey, I actually listened to the person and see you for a person, n- not just as for what you can give me." That's going to solidify and put a bow on it and put your stamp on it. That's going to say, "This is something that, that, uh, that will last."

10. 11:44 – 14:24

    Beyond relationships: applying communication principles to public speaking and leadership

    1. JFJefferson Fisher11:44

       What's another application of your work other than what we're discussing now? So I want people to have reasons to get the book as well. So one is these interpersonal communications, these one-on-ones. Anything public speaking-wise? Uh, like is this your pace and tonality from stage, or do you pick up the pace, for example, when you first walk out? Any other applications of your work? I'm just thinking of stage speaking as another, another, uh, forum for it.

    2. SPSpeaker12:09

       Yeah, definitely public speaking is, is useful, uh, because I... All of my lessons that I teach can also be applied to storytelling. At my pace, you've already picked up that what I do in my social media videos have to be very fast because that's the way social media is. If you're gonna keep it less than a minute, you have to find ways to take 30 pages and turn it into two sentences.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher12:32

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SPSpeaker12:32

       So you have to go a lot faster. On stage, I'm this speed, but I'm going to change and be more dynamic. And by dynamic, I mean my highs are gonna be higher, my lows are gonna be lower. So, uh, you think of a, a cymbal. Like you can barely tap on a cymbal here a little bit. You can hit it too and have a big crash. So you have to find ways to get in the pocket in your communication. And I love music. I play music, so that's why I like that term. You have to find the pocket. So any time a band's playing together, th- there's a part where you kind of start bobbing your head. You're like, "Oh, this feels good." Like something is hitting there. Everybody's on beat. Everybody's in sync. They're not going too fast. They're not rushing it. They're also not dragging. They are in the pocket of the song. And so when you find that you can be in the pocket in your communication, whether it's in public speaking, whether it's interpersonal relationships, whether it's what I see a lot of these managerial roles. So this is, a lot of consumers in my content are people that have people above them, like supervisors, and also have people below them-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher13:39

       Mm-hmm

    6. SPSpeaker13:39

       ... and also have this other, um, opportunity to communicate. So let's say like teachers. You have, they have faculty, they have students, and they have parents. Or nurses. They have administration, they have patients, and they have other nurses. You know, ev- other people and doctors, they have to all communicate. So it's, uh, these principles that I teach in the book apply to just about everything that you have that-

    7. JFJefferson Fisher14:08

       Mm

    8. SPSpeaker14:08

       ... is giving you the power of what to say next. And so when you can find that you're getting in the pocket of your communication, that means you're having the confidence of saying exactly what you need to say at the pace and tone of exactly how you need to say it, and you feel good, and you feel at peace at where you're at.

11. 14:24 – 17:58

    Reducing filler words and adverbs: replacing “like” with “because”

    1. JFJefferson Fisher14:24

       You don't have... One thing I've noticed about you, you're not one word reliant, so I wanna ask you about that. Just a couple more hacks, you guys, before we wrap up. But I, uh, a lot of people will overuse... You just did a piece of content I loved on people who say like. Like, like, like, like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like. In my case, I have this reliance on, uh, literally. I overuse the word literally, right? I've just noticed it listening to my stage speaking, listening to podcasts. I literally use literally too much.

    2. SPSpeaker14:56

       Mm.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher14:56

       So let's just take somebody even who uses the word like. I mean, and by the way, and everyone listening right now, you probably have a phrase or word that you use way more than you realize, right? They do. And so I'm wondering about any strategy or tactic. We could even stay on like if you choose. But, uh, should people be aware they do that to some extent as well? And, um, I wanna say literally, so I'll just let you answer.

    4. SPSpeaker15:21

       Well, yeah. Yeah, so yeah, th- they're all, uh, adverbs. They're all adverbs, words that end in L-Y, um, or th- they, they try and do things in sentences that add a lot of fluff. So like is one of them. So, just, literally, essentially. I have a best friend who will always start his sentence with, "So basically," uh, like you don't... Those are both adverbs. It's very easy to do because we use that in social casual conversation. If you want to eliminate using the word like all the time, swap it for the word because. It forces you to move the conversation forward. So instead of saying something to the effect of, "I didn't like when you said that. Like, it, it really made me feel, um, less," versus, "I didn't like when you said that because it made me feel less." It's adding the cause and effect in there. Like, it's just a fluff filler word. Literally is, you know, as you know, also a big ad word, and what they do is they just water down your sentences. They don't mean anything. I, my, my one that I have is just, which is not great either. So you can tell the difference of somebody going, "Hey, just wanna check in," versus, "I wanted to check in." You remove the word just, it doesn't sound nearly as hesitant. The biggest thing with adverbs is you find a way not to, to use them. Like literally, there's not a, there's not a flip of a word I would say you need to replace it with this. It's just not using the word. That's a lot easier, easier said than done of trying to catch yourself. And there's nothing wrong with them in casual conversation. It's when you're wanting to be assertive, when you're having to have a really important conversation. The literally kind of just clogs up the sentence because they don't know what to do with it. They hear it. Like there's a difference between if I were to say, "So, like, I mean, literally, if, I mean, and maybe you don't think this way, but so I was just thinking, like, but essentially," and you're like, "What are they saying?" Versus just scrapping all of that and getting right to the, getting right to the point.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher17:28

       What if you were all just a little bit better at all of this? I just want you to think about it. Just if you had a tool chest full of these things, that you're just a little bit better at all of these things. You're a little bit more persuasive. Your content on social media is a little bit better. You're a little bit better in front of a crowd. Your interpersonal relationships flow just a little bit better. Think about the implications of this in your life, and is there much m- are there many things you could do that could increase the quality of your productivity and your happiness more than what we're describing right now

12. 17:58 – 21:07

    Silence as the strongest communication tool: listening to learn, not to prove

    1. JFJefferson Fisher17:58

       or instantly? Because I don't believe that there is, literally, no pun intended. So last question regarding silence. So I've watched you today, and you listen quietly You don't do a lot of what I call emotional nudges. Uh-huh, yes, right. You don't speed me up. You listen to the end of a sentence. I just want to give you a whole package on the topic of silence. My opinion is that the best communicators I know utilize silence better than other people, meaning the following. I'm going to throw the whole package at you. My best stand-up friends, when they watched me speak, the advice they would give me, the ones that have been on the show, is, "Ed, a little bit more silence. Make the point and be quiet. Let the audience clap. Let them have the emotion before you move on to the next one. Don't talk over the punchline," is one of the rules in comedy. Uh, listening quietly, um, processing information after somebody speaks. All of this whole package of just silence and its actual unbelievable ability to be communicative to people is the part that I wanted to finish with, and maybe in my mind, the most important part of communication. Just stage, interpersonal, persuasion, presenting, all of it, listening, silence. What does that mean to you when I say it?

    2. SPSpeaker19:19

       Silence is, without a doubt, the most powerful tool anybody can have in their communication, because it may be the absence of words. It's not the absence of communication. Silence is always communicating something. And even some of the best, I would say your best attorneys, your best lawyers, are ones that don't try and step over the witness's answer. They are listening intently. That's when I know I have somebody on the other side I need to worry about, because they're not writing down notes. They're not looking for their next question. They're just looking and listening. And when that's happening, I'm going, "Oh, okay. Now, now I'm in some- with somebody who's, who can play." So it is... Anytime you're listening to somebody, if you begin to kind of really engage, I, I know that goes different for different types of people and their personality, but when you can just sit and listen, it's saying, "I am 100% devoted to this moment. I'm not wishing I was somewhere else. I'm not trying to speed this up so I can get out. Um, I'm not trying to focus on me and what I'm going to say next and my, my story that I'm going to share that's going to be hopefully better than yours." [laughs] It is just an appreciation for letting you shine, letting the spotlight be on you, and me having this sense of wonder to say, "What can I learn from this moment?" And when you begin to have every one of your conversations with this mindset of having something to learn and not something to prove, better things are going to happen in your life when you start to slow down and realize where you're going.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher20:58

       If you enjoyed that clip and want to see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you want to see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 21:08