How to Say No Without Guilt

1. 0:00 – 1:42

   Why delayed “maybes” drain you: the hidden cost of not saying no

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      The last section of rule number two in your book is about boundaries.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:05

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker0:07

      What do you mean by boundaries in this context? And, and also could you explain to me this, this image here? Do you know that image? I'll put it on the screen for anybody to see it.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:15

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is all about how to say no, especially let's put it in a context of somebody invited you to, uh, anything. Let's say somebody invited you to grab a cup of coffee.

   5. SPSpeaker0:27

      Yeah.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:27

      All right? Let's put it in terms of that's what this, this graph is. So the graph says when you have the chance to say no or yes to something and you decide not to say no, instead you go, "Oh, maybe," and then it just lives in your head for the next, you know, week until they ask again. You're like, "Ah, I just put it off." But if you say no when you need to say no, then it doesn't live in your head rent-free. So let's, let's put it in terms of, let's say you and I, uh, work at the same place.

   7. SPSpeaker0:53

      Yeah.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:53

      And I ask you for, "Hey, uh, Steven, let's go, wanna go grab a, a cup of coffee at this new place that I saw?" And you don't... You're like, look, you're thinking in your head, you're like, "Look, Jefferson, you're nice, you know, but you're not, we're not friend friends. We're, we're just work guys. You know, I like you at work, but you're not that cool. Like, let's... I don't wanna go have coffee with you." That's what you're thinking in your head. And besides, you're so busy, you got too many things to do, uh, and you need to say no. And instead you go, "Oh, oh man, um, you know, maybe, maybe. I, I... It just depends. I'll, I'll, uh, let you know." I'm like, "Oh, okay." And then I'm waiting the whole day to hear from you, and now in your head you're like, "How do I tell him I don't wanna do this? How do I tell him?" And now you're just thinking about it, and you're just wasting your emotional energy, and it just... Instead of saying no when you needed to say no.

2. 1:42 – 1:58

   The temptation to make excuses—and why fake reasons backfire

   1. SPSpeaker1:42

      But what if I come up with an excuse? I say, "I, I just checked. I've got a meeting, Jefferson, so I can't come for a coffee."

   2. JFJefferson Fisher1:46

      Well, if that's real.

   3. SPSpeaker1:47

      But if it's not real.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher1:48

      Yeah. Well, that's a problem.

   5. SPSpeaker1:49

      Why is it a problem?

   6. JFJefferson Fisher1:50

      Well, because, one, there's always a chance that they could find out. Two, it's just not genuine. It's not, it's not sincere. You, you owe it to yourself to, to be a truth-teller.

3. 1:58 – 2:37

   People-pleasing at the core: fearing they won’t like you

   1. SPSpeaker1:58

      But we, we don't want to offend somebody.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher2:02

      Yeah. That's the people-pleasing, right?

   3. SPSpeaker2:04

      Yeah. So, like, someone says to me, "Hey, Steve, I know you're in Austin." This actually happens. "Hey, Steve, I know you're in Austin. Um, would be great to, to get a coffee with you while you're in town-"

   4. JFJefferson Fisher2:13

      Right

   5. SPSpeaker2:14

      ... um, on Monday." And I look at my calendar and I go, "Well, I am free on Monday, but I just don't wanna go." [laughs]

   6. JFJefferson Fisher2:19

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker2:19

      So what do I say to them? I just go, "Listen, I..." [laughs]

   8. JFJefferson Fisher2:22

      Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

   9. SPSpeaker2:24

      No.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher2:24

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs] Actually, no. Uh, no, I don't.

   11. SPSpeaker2:28

       Yeah. [laughs]

   12. JFJefferson Fisher2:28

       Um, no, thanks. Pass. Hard pass.

   13. SPSpeaker2:31

       Yeah.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher2:31

       So here's where the mistake happens, all right? Is when it's that feeling of I don't wanna disappoint them.

   15. SPSpeaker2:37

       Yeah.

4. 2:37 – 3:37

   Stop saying “I’d love to, but…”: restructure the sentence

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:37

      I don't want them to not like me. That's what we want. That's what really it is. I don't want them to not like me. I still want them to like me. The mistake happens when you go, "Oh, man, that sounds so great and, and wonderful. I love to, but I can't. I have a, a full day of, uh, meetings." Um, and that's, that's all you leave it at right there. Okay? Problem with that, aside from it just being not true, whatever. To put it as, "Hey, man, I'd love to, but..." All right? The word but has a magic of erasing everything that happened before. If I were like, "Look, I love you, but..." Blah, and I have to say something else. Oh, I think it was great. Yeah. I, I mean, I think being on your podcast was, was wonderful. Um, but, uh, like, it just takes away, it feels less than what you said. So instead, starting with the gra- like, we wanna start with the gratitude. "Oh, thank you so much. That sounds wonderful. I can't." That's what we wanted

5. 3:37 – 4:47

   Texting scripts that work: concise no’s with a soft landing

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:37

      is, like, that soft landing. Uh, reverse it. Start with the no, then end, uh, with the gratitude. So it would be if somebody said, "Hey, can you come to dinner, whatever on... I know you're in Austin." "I can't. Thank you so much for inviting me. I, I, I'd love to meet you or see you the, the next time around." And if you can, add some kindness. "I've heard that place is awesome. Hope it's a great time." Like, uh, same thing if, if you need to tell me no to having coffee. "I can't," or, "I have bad news. I can't. Let me know how it goes. Like, I, I'm sure it's gonna be great. I've heard wonderful things about it. Let me know how it is." Like, it's much easier if you tell them that you can't upfront. Have you ever had somebody tell you no to an invitation and they're like, in a, in a text, they're going, "Oh my gosh, thank you so much. I've been... I've just been so busy and, you know, I've had to go feed my cat, and it's just been so stressful lately and I'm, uh, I might be able to go. I'll let you know if I can, and if anything changes, I'll definitely let you know." Like, you're like, if, if you just, if you don't wanna go, just tell me no.

   2. SPSpeaker4:42

      Yeah.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher4:42

      And it's that kind of feeling.

   4. SPSpeaker4:44

      We don't know the w- we don't have the words though. This is the problem.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher4:46

      Yeah.

6. 4:47 – 5:49

   Radical honesty in real life: the bar-owner story

   1. SPSpeaker4:47

      And I was reflecting over, over, um, New Year's. I was at a restaurant and I was reading this book about, I think it was called The Courage to Be Disliked, and it was just developing my thinking on just trying to be a bit more sort of radically can- give more radical candor to situations.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher5:00

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker5:00

      And we were sat in this, like, bar or whatever, me and my friend, and, um, the owner of the bar had come over and he was being really nice and he likes the podcast and stuff, and we were talking. And I was trying to practice this art of just being honest with, like, in those sort of-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher5:14

      Mm-hmm

   5. SPSpeaker5:14

      ... people-pleasing moments. And my friend says to him, "Oh, we've got to, um, we've got something to get to," blah, blah. And we hadn't got anywhere to go.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher5:23

      Yeah, of course.

   7. SPSpeaker5:24

      We just wanted-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher5:24

      Yeah.

   9. SPSpeaker5:24

      So I remember interjecting and going, "We wanna leave in 10 minutes, so, um, if they can get here before then, then I'll... I'm more than happy to, like, sign the books and stuff-"

   10. JFJefferson Fisher5:32

       Yeah, yeah

   11. SPSpeaker5:32

       ... whatever they want me to do. And it was so interesting how much better I felt about myself when I was just honest with this guy.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher5:37

       Yes.

   13. SPSpeaker5:38

       Like, I was like, "No, I don't have anywhere to be. I just wanna go."

   14. JFJefferson Fisher5:40

       Exactly. [laughs] Yeah.

   15. SPSpeaker5:42

       But it's not, it's not easy on a day-to-day basis, 'cause even when I did land here in Austin-

   16. JFJefferson Fisher5:45

       Yeah

   17. SPSpeaker5:46

       ... there were people that text me saying-

   18. JFJefferson Fisher5:47

       Of course

   19. SPSpeaker5:48

       ... "You're in Austin. Let's go for a coffee."

   20. JFJefferson Fisher5:49

       Right.

7. 5:49 – 6:49

   When it’s not personal: priorities, partner time, and your real constraints

   1. SPSpeaker5:49

      And in reality, what... Here's what my brain is saying. My brain is saying, "I need to spend time with my partner."

   2. JFJefferson Fisher5:53

      Yes.

   3. SPSpeaker5:53

      "When I'm not recording this podcast, I need to do my bloody, like, my to-do list-

   4. JFJefferson Fisher5:56

      Yeah

   5. SPSpeaker5:56

      ... and my Slack and my emails, and then-"

   6. JFJefferson Fisher5:58

      Priorities

   7. SPSpeaker5:58

      ... "I need to go to the gym as well."

   8. JFJefferson Fisher5:59

      Yeah.

   9. SPSpeaker6:00

      So it's not that I don't wanna go for coffee with you.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher6:03

       Right.

   11. SPSpeaker6:03

       It's that, like, I have other priorities that are pressing.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher6:05

       Exactly.

   13. SPSpeaker6:05

       So how would I communicate to them in that moment that- They're just, like, not a high priority. Like, it's not a high priority for me to go for a coffee

   14. JFJefferson Fisher6:13

       Yeah. So what you wanna do is, like we said, instead of beginning with a, "Oh, I'd love to. That sounds-"

   15. SPSpeaker6:18

       Yeah

   16. JFJefferson Fisher6:18

       ... terrific, you know, uh, but I've had... You know, I got so much to do, and I can't do this." They're like, "Oh, okay." Instead of that, just flip it and say, "I can't make it this go around. Thank you so much for inviting me. I look forward to hopefully seeing you soon or the, the next time." Or, you know, if you can't go to wherever they're wanting to go, I- you can say, "Got bad news. I'm not gonna be able to make that happen. Thank you so much for thinking of me," or, "I appreciate you inviting me. I hope it's a wonderful time."

8. 6:49 – 7:11

   No reasons required: how explanations turn into self-justification and anxiety

   1. SPSpeaker6:49

      And you don't even need to give them a reason.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher6:51

      No reason. No, no, no. That's where you make a mistake, is when you give them a reason, you start to have to feel like you have to justify.

   3. SPSpeaker6:57

      Mm.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher6:57

      Because you start... You're very subjective. We're all subjective in our head of, "Nah, that's not a good enough excuse. I have to give something that is worthy enough of the excuse that I'm not gonna be able to make it." And then that's where the anxiety kicks in, and that's where we just push it off.

9. 7:11 – 8:03

   If the reason is true, you may include it—plus a cleaner email response

   1. SPSpeaker7:11

      What if the excuse is real? So I've been invited to this dinner in London. I actually can't go.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher7:16

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker7:16

      But it's a very... Someone that I care about a lot. Um, I can't go because of my calendar, and I haven't responded to the email yet.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher7:22

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker7:22

      Um, I think in part 'cause I'm, like, trying to figure out how to let them down, even though my-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher7:26

      You see how it's taking up your energy even now?

   7. SPSpeaker7:27

      It is taking up my fucking energy.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher7:29

      Yes. [laughs]

   9. SPSpeaker7:29

      [laughs] So I, in that situation, I should say... I, I was gonna say terribly sorry.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher7:37

       Yeah. No, no, no.

   11. SPSpeaker7:38

       Okay. I can't make it on this occasion because I'm in the Middle East. Um, but thank you for the invitation.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher7:47

       Yes.

   13. SPSpeaker7:47

       And if this ever pops up again, please do let me know. I'd love to come.

   14. JFJefferson Fisher7:52

       Yeah.

   15. SPSpeaker7:52

       'Cause all of that is true.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher7:53

       Yeah. There it is.

   17. SPSpeaker7:54

       Okay.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher7:54

       I think that's perfect. There's nothing wrong with saying, "Because I'm in the Middle East." It's when, it's when it's more like that bar scenario, and you don't have anywhere else to go. You-

   19. SPSpeaker8:02

       Saying it

   20. JFJefferson Fisher8:02

       ... don't want to.

   21. SPSpeaker8:03

       Okay.

   22. JFJefferson Fisher8:03

       Uh-

10. 8:03 – 9:03

    Don’t apologize for having a boundary: drop “terribly sorry” and “unfortunately”

    1. SPSpeaker8:03

       And don't say terribly sorry.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher8:05

       Uh-uh.

    3. SPSpeaker8:05

       Why?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher8:05

       No, no, no. Yeah, because there's nothing to apologize for. You haven't done anything wrong. Save your apologies for when you said something you should not have done. You've made an actual mistake.

    5. SPSpeaker8:14

       And I'm not terribly fucking sorry.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher8:15

       Of course you're not.

    7. SPSpeaker8:16

       I'm somewhat terribly sorry-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher8:17

       You're not sorry at all

    9. SPSpeaker8:17

       ... for agreeing to a dinner.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher8:18

        You're very thankful.

    11. SPSpeaker8:19

        Yeah.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher8:19

        You're very thankful about it.

    13. SPSpeaker8:21

        [laughs]

    14. JFJefferson Fisher8:21

        You know? You're not sorry at all. So instead of the so terribly sorry or unfortunately, it's, "I can't make it work." You see how that's... It sound... When I say I can't make it work, I'm signaling to you that I have other things going on, and I cannot fit it in.

    15. SPSpeaker8:35

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher8:35

        It's not that you're not a priority. I just can't make it work. And so anytime you get that out front and then follow it up with the gratitude, "I appreciate you. Thank you. So kind of you for thinking of me," and then add on a little bit, like, just a sprig of kindness of, like, it's, "I know it's gonna be a wonderful time."

    17. SPSpeaker8:52

        Mm-hmm.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

        Perfect. That's, I mean, that's, that's all you need right there. Instead of going, "Ah, I need to respond to that email," and then, like, two weeks later, you're like, "Ah, I gotta respond to that email," and you just get yourself worked up.

11. 9:03 – 11:32

    What verbal fillers reveal: when “um/like/okay” matters (and when it doesn’t)

    1. SPSpeaker9:03

       What is this image that I have in my hand for people that can't see this conversation right now?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher9:07

       Yeah. So it, it looks like it's verbal fillers, so.

    3. SPSpeaker9:11

       Verbal fillers. One thing we've come to learn from doing this podcast is that when a guest on the show uses a lot of verbal fillers-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher9:17

       Mm-hmm

    5. SPSpeaker9:17

       ... people get irritated in the comment section.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher9:19

       [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker9:20

       It's so interesting, but it's-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher9:21

       Yeah

    9. SPSpeaker9:21

       ... it, it's really taught me a lot about how to speak better because if someone comes on the Diary of a CEO and the guest is constantly saying like, like, um, like, like, like, like, um, like, like, it's, like, the top three comments. I just did it then.

    10. JFJefferson Fisher9:34

        Yeah. Well, it's natural.

    11. SPSpeaker9:34

        It's the top three comments on the, on the video.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher9:36

        Right.

    13. SPSpeaker9:37

        Should I be getting rid of these filler words, the like, like, um, uh, if I wanna be a more effective, impactful communicator? Because the great communicators that I see on stages and stuff-

    14. JFJefferson Fisher9:47

        Yeah

    15. SPSpeaker9:47

        ... they don't use like, um, uh.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher9:49

        Right. If you're on a stage, if you're giving a presentation, don't use them. Yeah. That's, that's a real easy rule. In casual conversation, who cares? It's... The only makes, thing that makes this different is because it gets posted, and people are gonna pay attention to every single word that you say, and they're gonna wanna put that up. Everybody has some kind of verbal fillers. If they don't, they've been trained on it. That's all. That can almost be guaranteed. They've had some kind of media training if they don't use any verbal fillers because verbal fillers are, are very common. But if you wanna be an impactful speaker at a presentation, you don't wanna have the um, the uh, the like, um, okay. Add okay right after the sentence. Like, well, I'll see different... It's a habit for very new attorneys to begin to ask a question of a witness and say okay right afterwards. They'll s- they'll ask, "So do you see the red car?" Just give an answer.

    17. SPSpeaker10:41

        Yes.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher10:42

        Okay. And then they'll write it, and then they'll ask another question. And, but the record, so everything's transcribed by a court reporter, reporter, has okay, okay, okay-

    19. SPSpeaker10:51

        [laughs]

    20. JFJefferson Fisher10:51

        ... throughout it. And so what a lot of senior partners will give the transcript to the junior partner and say, "Just review it. See how, what your verbal fillers are and all of that stuff." So it's a great way to train, but yeah, verbal fillers, you don't wanna make a habit of them. They happen. There's nothing wrong with saying like or saying um. Nothing on its face wrong with it. It just has a way of cluttering up your sentences. Like, if I was going to say, "Yeah, so, um, so anyway, I mean, and you can totally tell me if I'm way off base here, but, like, so essentially I was thinking," and it's, it literally does not matter. Like, you see how we kinda, like-

    21. SPSpeaker11:26

        [laughs]

    22. JFJefferson Fisher11:26

        ... dip in and out, and we just, like, get to the point? You don't wanna do that on a, when you need to be very effective in your communication.

12. 11:32 – 13:42

    The ripple effect of words: why what you say shapes lives beyond you

    1. SPSpeaker11:32

       What is the most important thing we should have talked about that we haven't talked about as it relates to the work that you do, the questions that people ask you, and the value that you have to give to my audience? What's the most important thing?

    2. JFJefferson Fisher11:43

       That what they say, what people choose to say, has a ripple effect that will reach far more than they ever thought it possibly could. It'll affect people that they don't even know exist, how they talk to people. And what you say today affects how people think of you. It affects where you go in your career. It affects how your children will talk to their children. It affects how other people will talk to their kids and without you even knowing it. Another, I mean, example of that is the playground, like we talked about. Everybody has a memory of somebody's words. It was probably very simple.

    3. SPSpeaker12:22

       Mm.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher12:23

       The most simple words often are the most powerful, the small ones. They call... I had glasses, big, huge glasses, and I remember being called four eyes. I mean, crushed. I was crushed being called four eyes. If you called me that today, I'd be like, "So?" But at s- eight years old, I, I... Like, something, oh, I have four eyes. Something is wrong with me. I remember that being something that was very important. Words will last for a very, very long time, and the people that are in your life will say something to you, and you will remember it forever. People in high school, you think, "Oh, everybody forgets about high school." No, they don't. You go to law school. Everybody forgets. No, they don't. They remember exactly-

    5. SPSpeaker13:03

       Yeah

    6. JFJefferson Fisher13:04

       ... what you said and who you were. And even if it's the person across the register or the person taking your order at the cafe, how you talk to them affects how they talk to their loved ones when they go home. If they've, you've made their day difficult, they're gonna make sure that they reflect that in some sense, or it's going to put them in a bad mood. So what you say truly has the power to change everything, so it's the question and challenge of what will you choose to say with yours? If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 13:43