How to Spot Non-verbal cues | Jefferson Fisher

Speaker 0:00 You talk a lot in your book about the non-verbals.

Jefferson Fisher 0:06 [chuckles] Yeah.

Speaker 0:06 Which would be, you know, kind of, I think you make the reference of fight or flight, rest and digest.

Jefferson Fisher 0:12 Yeah.

Speaker 0:13 And as a trial attorney, I'm sure you are cued in on those all the time for both the people you represent and maybe the people on the other side of the table.

Jefferson Fisher 0:20 Yeah.

Speaker 0:20 W- as an advisor, what are some non-verbals where you might be able to see there's a, there's a hidden conversation or, or some resistance to a conversation-

Jefferson Fisher 0:28 Yeah

Speaker 0:29 ... and how you need to start to unpack that?

Jefferson Fisher 0:31 Every person has a surface and a depth. That's their current and what's really going on underneath. And this is f- this could be marriage advice as much as it could be-

Speaker 0:43 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 0:43 ... between client and a professional. As soon as you can pick up on what I call the ignition modes and the cooling modes, like you have this phase where it gets you all worked up-

Speaker 0:55 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 0:55 ... and then a cooling phase that kind of calms you down. The non-verbals you have to look for, especially in a professional setting, is the lean away. Anytime there's just the brightest little push away, it's usually a push away from the, the conversation. So let's put in, let's say I'm taking your deposition-

Speaker 1:16 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:16 ... right now, or let's say you're taking mine.

Speaker 1:18 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18 All right. So you have your elbows on the table. You're showing confidence. You're asking this question. You're staring at them in the eyes, and you ask me a question that makes me uncomfortable, or maybe I'm not really sure, and what do I do? Uh, let me think on it. So I just naturally push away from the table. So I'm saying, "Eh, I need some distance here." So that right there is a very big sign that-

Speaker 1:36 And you see that a lot.

Jefferson Fisher 1:37 Oh, I see that all the time. Folding arms, people say, you know, that shows a lot of, mm, defensiveness. Yes. I don't see that near as much as touching your neck. Like that, touching your face is a very high... What they say is it's, it shows your, you, you feel vulnerable, and so you're having to protect yourself. Wanna make sure I don't, like, cover the mic, but it's like, it's because the neck is exposing, right? Think of-

Speaker 2:05 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 2:05 ... um, medieval times.

Speaker 2:06 Almost like a caveman. It's like-

Jefferson Fisher 2:07 Exactly. Yeah, yeah

Speaker 2:08 ... it's like become, you know.

Jefferson Fisher 2:08 Because, you know, that's your vulnerable s- I mean, you could have all the muscles in the world, but you can't, like, get jacked in your neck.

Speaker 2:13 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 2:13 You know what I'm saying? So you, we do this a lot where we're covering our-

Speaker 2:18 So it's like a-

Jefferson Fisher 2:20 ... our mouths

Speaker 2:20 ... like this.

Jefferson Fisher 2:20 Yes.

Speaker 2:21 That kind of-

Jefferson Fisher 2:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anytime you're touching your face, it's usually some kind of indicator that something else is bothering you or going on. That it's, they just, all you have to... It's not like you have to be a mind reader. It's only saying they're thinking of something else. There's a conversation in their head that I'm not invited to right now, and so it's having the patience-

Speaker 2:41 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 2:42 ... to be able to draw the conversation out enough that they feel comfortable once you're dr- I mean, it's, you're truly drawing it out of them.

Speaker 2:49 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 2:49 That they feel comfortable enough of, okay, am I in a safe enough environment to say this? Otherwise, they won't. So okay, we got, um, people pulling away. We have people touching their neck. I find that one of the biggest indicators that if I can tell somebody is, I've hit a, a sensitive area, is their breath. They kind of fidget, and they'll do like this. [inhales] Like they, they take in a really big breath in that moment. Or like if somebody's upset you and they say something you don't like, what do we do? We go, like we t- we turn our head as if like-

Speaker 3:24 Hmm

Jefferson Fisher 3:24 ... "Hmm, I don't know if I really agree with that." You know? "I don't agree with your politics." You know? "I don't, I don't agree what you, with what you're saying." And so those to me are the three that as soon as I get that, I'm automatically on, okay, I need to ease off a little bit-

Speaker 3:38 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 3:39 ... and let's, let's, let's dive down.

Speaker 3:41 So in the book, how you kind of disarm this gentleman that hates attorneys-

Jefferson Fisher 3:47 Yeah. [laughs]

Speaker 3:47 ... doesn't trust attorneys.

Jefferson Fisher 3:48 Yeah.

Speaker 3:48 I, I will say you guys-

Jefferson Fisher 3:49 Yeah

Speaker 3:49 ... might one-up advisors.

Jefferson Fisher 3:51 Right, right. [laughs]

Speaker 3:51 So you might be the next township.

Jefferson Fisher 3:52 I think we do. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:53 So, um, you basically almost, like, change the complete script and just say, "Hey, I, I've..." Was your exact question something about, "Hey, what's been tough for you this year?" It was something where you pivoted just to more the life side-

Jefferson Fisher 4:06 Yeah

Speaker 4:07 ... and kind of opened up a different conversation 'cause he was resisting the other conversation. So when you see that, uh, you're an advisor, how do you shift it-

Jefferson Fisher 4:15 Mm-hmm

Speaker 4:16 ... to build rapport and start to break down the walls of defense?

Jefferson Fisher 4:20 In that moment, I had to say, "Okay, I need to pull him out of what we're doing right now."

Speaker 4:25 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:26 Like, let's forget we're in a room. Let's f-forget our titles. Let me just ask, how you doing?

Speaker 4:31 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:32 And I, that's what I did. I, I asked him, "So what's your biggest, what's been your biggest struggle this year? Like, what are you, what are you chewing on?" You know? I mean, because we, we all have things that are going on.

Speaker 4:43 Oh, yeah. For sure.

Jefferson Fisher 4:43 And so I just was, uh, I, I just felt blessed with the situation that I had for him to be able to actually voice it, even though it was in anger.

Speaker 4:52 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:53 And see, especially when it was in anger because the, the higher that tension, that just means the bigger the release I'm about to get.

Speaker 5:00 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:01 And so when somebody's yelling at me or raise their voice, they're gonna come down. They can't yell forever.

Speaker 5:07 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:07 And so it's like I, they'll hear me then. They just have to get it all. They have to get it all out. So how do you apply that to, in the financial advisor kind of roles, you have to be able to say, "All right, let me pull you out of this dollars and cents conversation. Forget that I want to sign you up. Forget that I know anything about money or that you want me to mon-manage your money or anything like that. Um, for-forget on the idea of wealth. Like, what's, w-what else is wealth to you aside from money? Let's forget that there's money."

Speaker 5:43 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:44 "What else is wealthy to you? What's a sign of success in your life?" Have that conversation with them. Wouldn't you get to know them more?

Speaker 5:52 For sure.

Jefferson Fisher 5:52 If you get to say, "Okay, now we talked about money, wealth. What else is wealth to you in life? What, what other kind of wealth are you building? You having time with your grandkids? Are you building time with your-" Your spouse? How else are you building wealth? Because my job is not just the money aspect. I also wanna build... I mean, to, you know this as well as anybody. I mean, you, w- money is just a piece of the pie in wealth. And so if you said, "Look, I'm only here to..." I'm talking about the holistic wealth-

Speaker 6:26 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 6:26 ... not just the financial. Imagine the conversations you get to build with people, of get to hear their, their hopes, their dreams, and how, where they're dedicating their time and-

Speaker 6:35 Well, and that, and that is also oftentimes what gets people stuck. They're looking at the accounts, they're looking at the returns, they're looking at the spreadsheets-

Jefferson Fisher 6:43 Mm-hmm

Speaker 6:44 ... and there's an anxiety about it.

Jefferson Fisher 6:45 Yeah.

Speaker 6:46 And when you take and say, "That's just the tool, what's the purpose?"

Jefferson Fisher 6:50 Yeah.

Speaker 6:51 You know? What, what's this actually for? What-

Jefferson Fisher 6:53 Mm-hmm

Speaker 6:53 ... time with the grandkids. Where are they at?

Jefferson Fisher 6:55 Yeah. Right.

Speaker 6:56 How many kids do you have? Now you're getting into the aspirational, the emotional side. Absolutely. So you're, you're almost like when you feel the resistance, it's almost like take a step back and let's kind of redirect and kind of refocus. That's kind of what I'm hearing you say.

Jefferson Fisher 7:10 Uh, yeah. I mean, my-

Speaker 7:11 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 7:12 ... well, it, and it tracks with my belief of like you, you're not gonna be able to take the money with you. So then what are you doing it for?

Speaker 7:19 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 7:20 Yeah, everybody wants to make money. What are you doing it for? You can't take it with you.

Speaker 7:23 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 7:24 And so everything, especially in the, in financial advisor, you're advising them on things they can't take with them. Now, they can leave it and pass it on, but that's not going to render them the, the moments of their life they're gonna remember when it's time for them to go.

Speaker 7:44 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 7:45 And so when you put the emphasis on, yeah, money's cool, that's not what I'm about. And so that was the mindset that I had to take of, that I, I, I was led to take on, yeah, attorney income, yeah, that's cool. That's nothing compared to the value that I get to, to help people, to-

Speaker 8:07 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 8:07 ... that kind of stuff. Helping people argue less and talk more, have conversations, and actually communicate and improve their businesses and improve their relationships, yeah, that's way cooler.

Speaker 8:17 How hard is that to allow for space? You talk about in the book taking a breath-

Jefferson Fisher 8:25 Mm-hmm

Speaker 8:25 ... like a, like a, a pause or a beat before-

Jefferson Fisher 8:27 Yeah

Speaker 8:27 ... you respond. I feel like whether you're in a conversation or maybe you're on stage and you're presenting, a lot of advisors do that as well, like a, a space like that at first feels like an eternity, even though to the audience, like you barely even took a, took a breath. Is that a muscle you have to exercise and get comfortable? How do you, how would you recommend to advisors to start to develop that skill set?

Jefferson Fisher 8:56 You just gotta do it.

Speaker 8:57 [clears throat]

Jefferson Fisher 8:58 That's the hard part. You just gotta choose to do it. It, um, once you start doing it and s- hear the difference in your language, it just changes something in you. When you feel the confidence, the weight, I don't have to have this stream of consciousness. Whereas you c- you... Where people, I know some people, where they just start talking and they almost kind of have to, like, catch their breath at the end-

Speaker 9:26 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 9:26 ... of talking because they've just gone on and it's just a nothing but a run of words. But if I can, whether it's a use of a small, small pause, like just a little bit to keep you attentive.

Speaker 9:39 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 9:39 The, just a little bit on edge. Or maybe it's something where you've said something that's pretty hurtful, and rather than me responding, I just let it sit five, seven seconds. The dynamic changes. I don't say any words, but yet I say everything in the, in the silence. So I, I find there's... The benefit of pausing, depending on the length, is, the, to me, if you can do it well, you can master conversation.

Speaker 10:12 Pausing by itself.

Jefferson Fisher 10:13 Pausing by itself. It's, um, like y- you think of, think of people you most respect. Most likely, they're not really fast talkers. Think of people you love to be around. Think about your grandparents. Like, how do you want people to feel in conversation? Do you want them to feel like they're in a cold waiting room at the doctor? Or do you want them to feel like it's your grandfather's living room? You know, when- whenever you are able to slow down in the conversation, it's, it's relaxing. They'll be... They'll, they wanna tell you more because they feel like this is a safe space to pretty much say anything. That's what you want. You think of, I think of, like, my grandfather. I can ask him a question and he'll, "Yep." You know what I mean? Like, he's in no rush whatsoever. But w- his yes is his yes and his no is his no. Uh, I never have to question that. So I would, I would definitely venture to say that if you can master the pause, you can master communication.

Speaker 11:17 I feel like human nature just says that is a wise person.

Jefferson Fisher 11:21 Yep.

Speaker 11:21 Somebody that pauses and speaks slower, it just, it's more thou... Number one, it is more thoughtful.

Jefferson Fisher 11:26 Yeah.

Speaker 11:26 But it also represents, even if it's not more thoughtful, it represents that way.

Jefferson Fisher 11:31 Yeah. Here's another thought for financial advisors specifically, and I know this as a, an attorney. When I get a question from a client, there's this legal question, let's say they're right in front of me. This urge for me to feel like I need the right answer right away and it needs to sound beautiful, and that's just not real life. 'Cause most of the time, sometimes, you're just making it up, right? I, I know legal principles and I can guess, and I know the law, but every set of facts is so different.

Speaker 12:03 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 12:03 So how can I be in a, a place where- [clears throat] I'm gonna know with 1,000% certainty of something. I generally don't. It's, uh, I mean, that's why they're... That's why you're going to trial in the first place. That's why juries. That's why you have appeals court. Those, uh-

12:17 Mm-hmm

12:17 ... it's, it's, it's all over the place. But if you have somebody that's right in front of you, and they ask you a question, what I always try to do is say, "Let me think." I just, I, I choose to let them see me thinking about it-

12:37 Hmm

12:37 ... rather than try to have that rapid fire response. Because what it's telling them is that what I'm about to say is actually thought about. 'Cause they're not, they're not always paying me for the action. They're paying me for the thinking. And so it's the same thing in the, the financial world. They're, they're paying for your mind. And so when I can, ask me a question, rather than have that rapid fire, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're gonna do X, Y, and Z, and this is what the plan

Jefferson Fisher 13:07 is, and blah, blah, blah." If I can just stop and go, "That's a great question. Let me think about it." It works with your spouse too. She asks you something, he asks you something, and you go, "I wanna think before I respond to that." [laughs] All right? Or if somebody-

13:26 Would've, would've avoided a lot of conflict over the years-

13:28 Yeah, yeah

13:28 ... if I would've done that.

13:28 Yeah, I'm telling you.

13:29 [clears throat]

13:30 It's, well, it's, it's come from a lot of pain. [laughs]

13:33 [laughs]

13:33 But it... Or, or if somebody says something that's kinda rude to you or ugly to you, rather than snapping back, say, "Yeah, I'm gonna need some time with that before I respond." I mean, that's-

13:46 You almost just black belt ninja this.

13:48 You just do.

13:49 Yeah.

13:49 You just, uh, you really do. You, you, um, you jujitsu'd them.

13:55 Yeah.

13:55 You really do. [laughs]

13:57 They're like, "Man, I sh- I don't even know where to go with this right now."

14:00 Yeah. Well, it ends up that they, they put themselves in a headlock.

14:03 Mm-hmm.

14:04 You know?

14:04 Mm-hmm.

14:04 That's, and that's, that's what you want, uh, to be able to, uh, communicate in a way that, "Look, I'm gonna make you feel bad about yourself, and I don't have to say anything."

14:15 Hmm.

14:16 Like, that's, that's a pretty powerful way to communicate.

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