How to Spot Non-verbal cues | Jefferson Fisher

1. 0:00 – 0:31

   Intro

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      You talk a lot in your book about the non-verbals.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher0:06

      [chuckles] Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker0:06

      Which would be, you know, kind of, I think you make the reference of fight or flight, rest and digest.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher0:12

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker0:13

      And as a trial attorney, I'm sure you are cued in on those all the time for both the people you represent and maybe the people on the other side of the table.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher0:20

      Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker0:20

      W- as an advisor, what are some non-verbals where you might be able to see there's a, there's a hidden conversation or, or some resistance to a conversation-

   8. JFJefferson Fisher0:28

      Yeah

   9. SPSpeaker0:29

      ... and how you need to start to unpack that?

2. 0:31 – 0:55

   Reading the “surface vs. depth” in conversations through non-verbals

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:31

      Every person has a surface and a depth. That's their current and what's really going on underneath. And this is f- this could be marriage advice as much as it could be-

   2. SPSpeaker0:43

      Mm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:43

      ... between client and a professional. As soon as you can pick up on what I call the ignition modes and the cooling modes, like you have this phase where it gets you all worked up-

   4. SPSpeaker0:55

      Mm-hmm

3. 0:55 – 1:37

   The “lean away” cue: subtle distancing from the topic

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:55

      ... and then a cooling phase that kind of calms you down. The non-verbals you have to look for, especially in a professional setting, is the lean away. Anytime there's just the brightest little push away, it's usually a push away from the, the conversation. So let's put in, let's say I'm taking your deposition-

   2. SPSpeaker1:16

      Mm-hmm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:16

      ... right now, or let's say you're taking mine.

   4. SPSpeaker1:18

      Okay.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher1:18

      All right. So you have your elbows on the table. You're showing confidence. You're asking this question. You're staring at them in the eyes, and you ask me a question that makes me uncomfortable, or maybe I'm not really sure, and what do I do? Uh, let me think on it. So I just naturally push away from the table. So I'm saying, "Eh, I need some distance here." So that right there is a very big sign that-

   6. SPSpeaker1:36

      And you see that a lot.

4. 1:37 – 2:49

   Face and neck touching: vulnerability and self-protection signals

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:37

      Oh, I see that all the time. Folding arms, people say, you know, that shows a lot of, mm, defensiveness. Yes. I don't see that near as much as touching your neck. Like that, touching your face is a very high... What they say is it's, it shows your, you, you feel vulnerable, and so you're having to protect yourself. Wanna make sure I don't, like, cover the mic, but it's like, it's because the neck is exposing, right? Think of-

   2. SPSpeaker2:05

      Yeah

   3. JFJefferson Fisher2:05

      ... um, medieval times.

   4. SPSpeaker2:06

      Almost like a caveman. It's like-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher2:07

      Exactly. Yeah, yeah

   6. SPSpeaker2:08

      ... it's like become, you know.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher2:08

      Because, you know, that's your vulnerable s- I mean, you could have all the muscles in the world, but you can't, like, get jacked in your neck.

   8. SPSpeaker2:13

      Yeah.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher2:13

      You know what I'm saying? So you, we do this a lot where we're covering our-

   10. SPSpeaker2:18

       So it's like a-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher2:20

       ... our mouths

   12. SPSpeaker2:20

       ... like this.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher2:20

       Yes.

   14. SPSpeaker2:21

       That kind of-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher2:21

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anytime you're touching your face, it's usually some kind of indicator that something else is bothering you or going on. That it's, they just, all you have to... It's not like you have to be a mind reader. It's only saying they're thinking of something else. There's a conversation in their head that I'm not invited to right now, and so it's having the patience-

   16. SPSpeaker2:41

       Mm-hmm

   17. JFJefferson Fisher2:42

       ... to be able to draw the conversation out enough that they feel comfortable once you're dr- I mean, it's, you're truly drawing it out of them.

   18. SPSpeaker2:49

       Yeah.

5. 2:49 – 3:41

   Breath changes, fidgeting, and head turns: spotting sensitive areas

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:49

      That they feel comfortable enough of, okay, am I in a safe enough environment to say this? Otherwise, they won't. So okay, we got, um, people pulling away. We have people touching their neck. I find that one of the biggest indicators that if I can tell somebody is, I've hit a, a sensitive area, is their breath. They kind of fidget, and they'll do like this. [inhales] Like they, they take in a really big breath in that moment. Or like if somebody's upset you and they say something you don't like, what do we do? We go, like we t- we turn our head as if like-

   2. SPSpeaker3:24

      Hmm

   3. JFJefferson Fisher3:24

      ... "Hmm, I don't know if I really agree with that." You know? "I don't agree with your politics." You know? "I don't, I don't agree what you, with what you're saying." And so those to me are the three that as soon as I get that, I'm automatically on, okay, I need to ease off a little bit-

   4. SPSpeaker3:38

      Yeah

   5. JFJefferson Fisher3:39

      ... and let's, let's, let's dive down.

6. 3:41 – 4:20

   Case story: disarming a client who distrusts attorneys

   1. SPSpeaker3:41

      So in the book, how you kind of disarm this gentleman that hates attorneys-

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:47

      Yeah. [laughs]

   3. SPSpeaker3:47

      ... doesn't trust attorneys.

   4. JFJefferson Fisher3:48

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker3:48

      I, I will say you guys-

   6. JFJefferson Fisher3:49

      Yeah

   7. SPSpeaker3:49

      ... might one-up advisors.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher3:51

      Right, right. [laughs]

   9. SPSpeaker3:51

      So you might be the next township.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher3:52

       I think we do. Yeah, yeah.

   11. SPSpeaker3:53

       So, um, you basically almost, like, change the complete script and just say, "Hey, I, I've..." Was your exact question something about, "Hey, what's been tough for you this year?" It was something where you pivoted just to more the life side-

   12. JFJefferson Fisher4:06

       Yeah

   13. SPSpeaker4:07

       ... and kind of opened up a different conversation 'cause he was resisting the other conversation. So when you see that, uh, you're an advisor, how do you shift it-

   14. JFJefferson Fisher4:15

       Mm-hmm

   15. SPSpeaker4:16

       ... to build rapport and start to break down the walls of defense?

7. 4:20 – 4:53

   Pivoting to human questions: “How are you doing—what’s been hard?”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:20

      In that moment, I had to say, "Okay, I need to pull him out of what we're doing right now."

   2. SPSpeaker4:25

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher4:26

      Like, let's forget we're in a room. Let's f-forget our titles. Let me just ask, how you doing?

   4. SPSpeaker4:31

      Mm-hmm.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher4:32

      And I, that's what I did. I, I asked him, "So what's your biggest, what's been your biggest struggle this year? Like, what are you, what are you chewing on?" You know? I mean, because we, we all have things that are going on.

   6. SPSpeaker4:43

      Oh, yeah. For sure.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher4:43

      And so I just was, uh, I, I just felt blessed with the situation that I had for him to be able to actually voice it, even though it was in anger.

   8. SPSpeaker4:52

      Hmm.

8. 4:53 – 5:07

   Let them vent: tension peaks and then comes down

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:53

      And see, especially when it was in anger because the, the higher that tension, that just means the bigger the release I'm about to get.

   2. SPSpeaker5:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:01

      And so when somebody's yelling at me or raise their voice, they're gonna come down. They can't yell forever.

   4. SPSpeaker5:07

      Mm-hmm.

9. 5:07 – 6:35

   Advisor application: shifting from “dollars and cents” to holistic wealth

   1. JFJefferson Fisher5:07

      And so it's like I, they'll hear me then. They just have to get it all. They have to get it all out. So how do you apply that to, in the financial advisor kind of roles, you have to be able to say, "All right, let me pull you out of this dollars and cents conversation. Forget that I want to sign you up. Forget that I know anything about money or that you want me to mon-manage your money or anything like that. Um, for-forget on the idea of wealth. Like, what's, w-what else is wealth to you aside from money? Let's forget that there's money."

   2. SPSpeaker5:43

      Hmm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher5:44

      "What else is wealthy to you? What's a sign of success in your life?" Have that conversation with them. Wouldn't you get to know them more?

   4. SPSpeaker5:52

      For sure.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher5:52

      If you get to say, "Okay, now we talked about money, wealth. What else is wealth to you in life? What, what other kind of wealth are you building? You having time with your grandkids? Are you building time with your-" Your spouse? How else are you building wealth? Because my job is not just the money aspect. I also wanna build... I mean, to, you know this as well as anybody. I mean, you, w- money is just a piece of the pie in wealth. And so if you said, "Look, I'm only here to..." I'm talking about the holistic wealth-

   6. SPSpeaker6:26

      Mm-hmm

   7. JFJefferson Fisher6:26

      ... not just the financial. Imagine the conversations you get to build with people, of get to hear their, their hopes, their dreams, and how, where they're dedicating their time and-

10. 6:35 – 7:12

    Reframing money as a tool for purpose, not the purpose itself

    1. SPSpeaker6:35

       Well, and that, and that is also oftentimes what gets people stuck. They're looking at the accounts, they're looking at the returns, they're looking at the spreadsheets-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher6:43

       Mm-hmm

    3. SPSpeaker6:44

       ... and there's an anxiety about it.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher6:45

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker6:46

       And when you take and say, "That's just the tool, what's the purpose?"

    6. JFJefferson Fisher6:50

       Yeah.

    7. SPSpeaker6:51

       You know? What, what's this actually for? What-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher6:53

       Mm-hmm

    9. SPSpeaker6:53

       ... time with the grandkids. Where are they at?

    10. JFJefferson Fisher6:55

        Yeah. Right.

    11. SPSpeaker6:56

        How many kids do you have? Now you're getting into the aspirational, the emotional side. Absolutely. So you're, you're almost like when you feel the resistance, it's almost like take a step back and let's kind of redirect and kind of refocus. That's kind of what I'm hearing you say.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher7:10

        Uh, yeah. I mean, my-

    13. SPSpeaker7:11

        Mm-hmm

11. 7:12 – 8:17

    Mortality and meaning: you can’t take money with you

    1. JFJefferson Fisher7:12

       ... well, it, and it tracks with my belief of like you, you're not gonna be able to take the money with you. So then what are you doing it for?

    2. SPSpeaker7:19

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher7:20

       Yeah, everybody wants to make money. What are you doing it for? You can't take it with you.

    4. SPSpeaker7:23

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher7:24

       And so everything, especially in the, in financial advisor, you're advising them on things they can't take with them. Now, they can leave it and pass it on, but that's not going to render them the, the moments of their life they're gonna remember when it's time for them to go.

    6. SPSpeaker7:44

       Yeah.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher7:45

       And so when you put the emphasis on, yeah, money's cool, that's not what I'm about. And so that was the mindset that I had to take of, that I, I, I was led to take on, yeah, attorney income, yeah, that's cool. That's nothing compared to the value that I get to, to help people, to-

    8. SPSpeaker8:07

       Mm-hmm

    9. JFJefferson Fisher8:07

       ... that kind of stuff. Helping people argue less and talk more, have conversations, and actually communicate and improve their businesses and improve their relationships, yeah, that's way cooler.

12. 8:17 – 10:13

    Mastering the pause: building comfort with silence

    1. SPSpeaker8:17

       How hard is that to allow for space? You talk about in the book taking a breath-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher8:25

       Mm-hmm

    3. SPSpeaker8:25

       ... like a, like a, a pause or a beat before-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher8:27

       Yeah

    5. SPSpeaker8:27

       ... you respond. I feel like whether you're in a conversation or maybe you're on stage and you're presenting, a lot of advisors do that as well, like a, a space like that at first feels like an eternity, even though to the audience, like you barely even took a, took a breath. Is that a muscle you have to exercise and get comfortable? How do you, how would you recommend to advisors to start to develop that skill set?

    6. JFJefferson Fisher8:56

       You just gotta do it.

    7. SPSpeaker8:57

       [clears throat]

    8. JFJefferson Fisher8:58

       That's the hard part. You just gotta choose to do it. It, um, once you start doing it and s- hear the difference in your language, it just changes something in you. When you feel the confidence, the weight, I don't have to have this stream of consciousness. Whereas you c- you... Where people, I know some people, where they just start talking and they almost kind of have to, like, catch their breath at the end-

    9. SPSpeaker9:26

       Mm-hmm

    10. JFJefferson Fisher9:26

        ... of talking because they've just gone on and it's just a nothing but a run of words. But if I can, whether it's a use of a small, small pause, like just a little bit to keep you attentive.

    11. SPSpeaker9:39

        Right.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher9:39

        The, just a little bit on edge. Or maybe it's something where you've said something that's pretty hurtful, and rather than me responding, I just let it sit five, seven seconds. The dynamic changes. I don't say any words, but yet I say everything in the, in the silence. So I, I find there's... The benefit of pausing, depending on the length, is, the, to me, if you can do it well, you can master conversation.

    13. SPSpeaker10:12

        Pausing by itself.

13. 10:13 – 11:31

    Slow is safe: why measured speech increases trust and openness

    1. JFJefferson Fisher10:13

       Pausing by itself. It's, um, like y- you think of, think of people you most respect. Most likely, they're not really fast talkers. Think of people you love to be around. Think about your grandparents. Like, how do you want people to feel in conversation? Do you want them to feel like they're in a cold waiting room at the doctor? Or do you want them to feel like it's your grandfather's living room? You know, when- whenever you are able to slow down in the conversation, it's, it's relaxing. They'll be... They'll, they wanna tell you more because they feel like this is a safe space to pretty much say anything. That's what you want. You think of, I think of, like, my grandfather. I can ask him a question and he'll, "Yep." You know what I mean? Like, he's in no rush whatsoever. But w- his yes is his yes and his no is his no. Uh, I never have to question that. So I would, I would definitely venture to say that if you can master the pause, you can master communication.

    2. SPSpeaker11:17

       I feel like human nature just says that is a wise person.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher11:21

       Yep.

    4. SPSpeaker11:21

       Somebody that pauses and speaks slower, it just, it's more thou... Number one, it is more thoughtful.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher11:26

       Yeah.

    6. SPSpeaker11:26

       But it also represents, even if it's not more thoughtful, it represents that way.

14. 11:31 – 13:07

    “Let me think”: showing your work instead of rushing answers

    1. JFJefferson Fisher11:31

       Yeah. Here's another thought for financial advisors specifically, and I know this as a, an attorney. When I get a question from a client, there's this legal question, let's say they're right in front of me. This urge for me to feel like I need the right answer right away and it needs to sound beautiful, and that's just not real life. 'Cause most of the time, sometimes, you're just making it up, right? I, I know legal principles and I can guess, and I know the law, but every set of facts is so different.

    2. SPSpeaker12:03

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher12:03

       So how can I be in a, a place where- [clears throat] I'm gonna know with 1,000% certainty of something. I generally don't. It's, uh, I mean, that's why they're... That's why you're going to trial in the first place. That's why juries. That's why you have appeals court. Those, uh-

    4. JFJefferson Fisher12:17

       Mm-hmm

    5. JFJefferson Fisher12:17

       ... it's, it's, it's all over the place. But if you have somebody that's right in front of you, and they ask you a question, what I always try to do is say, "Let me think." I just, I, I choose to let them see me thinking about it-

    6. JFJefferson Fisher12:37

       Hmm

    7. JFJefferson Fisher12:37

       ... rather than try to have that rapid fire response. Because what it's telling them is that what I'm about to say is actually thought about. 'Cause they're not, they're not always paying me for the action. They're paying me for the thinking. And so it's the same thing in the, the financial world. They're, they're paying for your mind. And so when I can, ask me a question, rather than have that rapid fire, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're gonna do X, Y, and Z, and this is what the plan

15. 13:07 – 14:27

    Verbal jujitsu: using time and silence to defuse rudeness and conflict

    1. JFJefferson Fisher13:07

       is, and blah, blah, blah." If I can just stop and go, "That's a great question. Let me think about it." It works with your spouse too. She asks you something, he asks you something, and you go, "I wanna think before I respond to that." [laughs] All right? Or if somebody-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher13:26

       Would've, would've avoided a lot of conflict over the years-

    3. JFJefferson Fisher13:28

       Yeah, yeah

    4. JFJefferson Fisher13:28

       ... if I would've done that.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher13:28

       Yeah, I'm telling you.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher13:29

       [clears throat]

    7. JFJefferson Fisher13:30

       It's, well, it's, it's come from a lot of pain. [laughs]

    8. JFJefferson Fisher13:33

       [laughs]

    9. JFJefferson Fisher13:33

       But it... Or, or if somebody says something that's kinda rude to you or ugly to you, rather than snapping back, say, "Yeah, I'm gonna need some time with that before I respond." I mean, that's-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher13:46

        You almost just black belt ninja this.

    11. JFJefferson Fisher13:48

        You just do.

    12. JFJefferson Fisher13:49

        Yeah.

    13. JFJefferson Fisher13:49

        You just, uh, you really do. You, you, um, you jujitsu'd them.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher13:55

        Yeah.

    15. JFJefferson Fisher13:55

        You really do. [laughs]

    16. JFJefferson Fisher13:57

        They're like, "Man, I sh- I don't even know where to go with this right now."

    17. JFJefferson Fisher14:00

        Yeah. Well, it ends up that they, they put themselves in a headlock.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher14:03

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher14:04

        You know?

    20. JFJefferson Fisher14:04

        Mm-hmm.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher14:04

        That's, and that's, that's what you want, uh, to be able to, uh, communicate in a way that, "Look, I'm gonna make you feel bad about yourself, and I don't have to say anything."

    22. JFJefferson Fisher14:15

        Hmm.

    23. JFJefferson Fisher14:16

        Like, that's, that's a pretty powerful way to communicate.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher14:19

        If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here. Or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 14:27