I Asked a Child Behavior Expert How to Be a Good Parent

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 How do you like to communicate boundaries to kids?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:03 People really misunderstand boundaries because boundary is something you tell your kid you will do, and it requires your kid to do nothing. But most parents, they have over-corrected. We think we say no, but we actually ask our kids' permission. We do this weird "okay" at the end. "Can I watch another show?" "Look, it's not good for you, okay?" "Can I watch another show?" "No, sweetie, TV is over," and then stop talking.

Jefferson Fisher 0:25 How do we build capable, resilient humans?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:29 You cannot go through a life of a road being paved for you and expect when you're older to know how to navigate twists and turns. So the hardest moments when your kid is struggling are the moments where resilience gets built, and I think supported struggle comes from two things. The first is, "I believe you," but we have dropped the second piece, which is the [censored] .

Jefferson Fisher 0:50 What is one of the biggest misconceptions when it comes to parenthood?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 0:54 That you have to get it right all the time. Repair is really the most important part of good parenting, and you can't repair if you don't mess up.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01 How do you know if you're spoiling your kid? What do you say to your kid when they say, "I can't"? What can a parent do to make sure that their kid is not entitled?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09 The best way to not have an entitled kid, and I can be concrete about this, is to-

Jefferson Fisher 1:16 How do we build-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:17 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:17 ... capable, resilient humans?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:23 Who... Anti-fragile-

Jefferson Fisher 1:24 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:25 ... children. 100%.

Jefferson Fisher 1:26 Capable, resilient-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:27 Yep. Good

Jefferson Fisher 1:28 ... not just kids, humans.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:29 Yep.

Jefferson Fisher 1:30 'Cause I have two. You have three. Uh, and I am... It keeps me up-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:36 Yep

Jefferson Fisher 1:36 ... all the time-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:38 Yep

Jefferson Fisher 1:38 ... thinking of, am I [laughs] ruining everything? And it doesn't take but a few therapy sessions of my own to go, "Okay, am I doing everything, uh, the right way?" So I, I... The question I have for you is, is there a line between how building capacity and sturdiness, is your word, and just letting them struggle? In other words-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:05 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 2:05 ... like, do you... Where, where's the, the line between letting that balance fall?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:10 Yep. So do you want me to just-

Jefferson Fisher 2:12 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:12 ... answer that?

Jefferson Fisher 2:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:13 Okay. My one-liner for how we do that? No.

Jefferson Fisher 2:16 Yeah. No, no, no. I don't need-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:17 I think the [laughs] key is how

Jefferson Fisher 2:17 ... I'm not worried about one-liners, by the way.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:19 Yeah, no. So I actually... A, a story came to mind. Like, I actually think I tend to think about my biggest ideas in these very specific moments, where then I kind of from there back out-

Jefferson Fisher 2:30 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:30 ... like, a bigger principle. So I think about a moment when my oldest, who's now almost 15, was... I, I'm gonna say he's three, and he was very into puzzles when he was younger. He was doing a puzzle, um, and it was hard, right? And he, he then broke down at some point, melting down and... I don't know if you've had this with one of your kids. Like, "Just do it. Do it for me. I can't do it. It's too hard."

Jefferson Fisher 2:52 That was this morning. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:53 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 2:53 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:54 All the time. Good. That was just a check to make sure you're not-

Jefferson Fisher 2:56 Right. Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:57 ... not a liar.

Jefferson Fisher 2:57 Are you really a parent? Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 2:58 Okay. Um, okay. And so look, there are some times we don't have the energy reserves, and I just wanna start with that. Me too, as a parent, there are days, whatever the equivalent is, "Yeah, I'll do that puzzle for you. Fine, have an extra show."

Jefferson Fisher 3:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:11 Like, that's fine once in a while, but if we think about what builds resilience and capability, you cannot go through a life of a road being paved for you and expect when you're older to know how to n- how to navigate twists and turns. Like, it just... The math doesn't even math. It doesn't make sense.

Jefferson Fisher 3:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:31 And so there's fixing the issue with the puzzle, and then I think sometimes, and you kind of said this, we go to the other extreme, where I say to my kid, "This isn't a big deal. Stop being such a baby. Do the puzzle or don't. I don't care."

Jefferson Fisher 3:43 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:44 I, I, I mean, I guess my kid is left with the struggle. I have never found that particularly helpful in my own life to inspire more hard work. [laughs] Like, find it shameful. I find-

Jefferson Fisher 3:53 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 3:53 ... myself alone. So I just wanna share something I said to him because it kind of did form a foundation for me of how I think about resilience. I said, "Look, first of all, this is a hard puzzle. Like, you're 100%, this is har- you're 100% right, this is hard, but I wanna tell you why I'm not gonna do a piece for you. I think the best feeling in the world is when you think you can't do something-

Jefferson Fisher 4:16 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:16 ... and then you watch yourself make progress on it, and I'm not gonna take that feeling away from you. And you can take a break. You can take a breath. I know at some point that feeling's gonna come, and it's gonna be amazing, so let's take a moment together. I'll watch. I'll step out. At some point, you're gonna finish this." And, and what I think is kind of a bigger principle there is kind of this idea of what I would call supported struggle, not exit from struggle, not shame, and not

Dr. Becky Kennedy 4:47 s- uh, support is not solutions. They're two very different things, and I think supported struggle comes from two things, and I think we've over-corrected to just the first. The first is, "I believe you. I believe you this is hard. I believe you this puzzle is hard."

Jefferson Fisher 5:00 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:01 "I believe you going to soccer practice is hard. I believe you it's hard to do the bonus problem on your math homework when you don't know if you're gonna get it right. I believe you." But we have dropped the second piece, which is the, "I believe in you." That if you can't see a more capable version of your kid than they can access in themselves, you've collapsed into their sense of their own fragility with them, and then that has kind of profound consequences for the rest of their life.

Jefferson Fisher 5:29 I have so many-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:30 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 5:31 ... um, of my own flashbacks recently of how quickly my kids sometimes can just give up-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:40 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 5:40 ... on something, or you hear... I, I, I know yours is a puzzle. My daughter, who's six, she's really into creating these, like, rubber band bracelets.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:52 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 5:52 They're everywhere. She's made gobs.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:54 The little ones?

Jefferson Fisher 5:54 The little ones.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:55 Yep.

Jefferson Fisher 5:56 And she's made-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 5:57 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 5:57 ... gobs of them at our house for everybody. Anybody she can think of, she's making this bracelet. Um, but she was trying to do this really intricate design, and of course, I hear her upstairs- Oh, this is her. She's going, "Oh, come on." Like, that's her upstairs. [laughs] Like, you can hear she going, "Oh." And of course, I go up there, and I wanted to in that moment just go, "Okay, I... This is hard. Let me, let me help you-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:22 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 6:22 ... with this." Um, and long story short, I didn't. The question is, is there ever an okay time when your kid's going through a, a hard moment to rescue them?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:35 Y- y- yes, because I think there's, if you think about struggle, let's just say, or frustration as a bell curve.

Jefferson Fisher 6:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:42 Resilience, this isn't truly scientific, but my guess is resilience is built in the two to eight zone. When you're at a 10 out of 10-

Jefferson Fisher 6:51 H- H- H to D

Dr. Becky Kennedy 6:51 ... no, sorry, like a level two to a level 10. When you're feeling, let's say, frustration or overwhelm at any age at a level 10 and you're frozen in fear-

Jefferson Fisher 7:04 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:05 ... and you're having a panic attack, you're in survival mode.

Jefferson Fisher 7:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:11 Often in that situation, and this can happen, I was actually just talking to, you know, a couple about this. Their kid right now is young and likes to play soccer, but going to soccer practice and joining the team finds it intimidating, and they're like, "We're not gonna give into this. We're not one of those parents who's like, 'Okay, fine, we'll just get you private lessons forever.' No, that's not us."

Jefferson Fisher 7:31 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:32 And by the way, two college soccer players, so there's history, right?

Jefferson Fisher 7:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:35 Okay. So they're like, "We're going," right? And, and they had a little difference of opinion. The mom was saying, "We're gonna go, and the truth is, what am I gonna do? Make my kid play? We're gonna go. We're gonna sit, I feel like, over time."

Jefferson Fisher 7:46 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:46 And the dad was like, "That... N- no. My kid is going to practice, and it's like, if you don't go today, no dessert tonight, no screens tonight-"

Jefferson Fisher 7:53 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 7:53 ... no this." By the way, this has been tried, and actually the kid just freezes more because now that kid feels like a huge failure at soccer-

Jefferson Fisher 8:00 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:00 ... and a few huge failure [laughs] in their home. Is that rescuing to not make them go to soccer? But I think the difference is rescuing in that situation is probably, if you have the means, we'll just give you private soccer lessons forever so you never have to deal with the kind of anxiety of, what if I'm not the best one?

Jefferson Fisher 8:18 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:19 What... Right? I don't think rescuing is saying, as an example, "We're gonna go to soccer. Look, I'm, I don't know if you're-

Jefferson Fisher 8:26 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:26 ... gonna join, but I'm... We're gonna go, and we're gonna sit there-

Jefferson Fisher 8:29 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 8:29 ... because when we sign up for something in this family, we work toward doing it. And also, I just kinda think you're the type of kid who takes a little bit longer to warm up, and that's fine. And I feel like maybe at one of the practices, you might feel ready." That was my daughter for years. For years, a slow-to-warm-up kid. And I think what we take away in the rescuing is we remove kids from the situations that would build resilience. It's just that some kids have a longer timeline, and frankly, we find it inconvenient. I'm like, is that really how I'm gonna spend every birthday party with my kid sitting on my lap into the last five minutes, and then they cry that the birthday party was too short?

Jefferson Fisher 9:08 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:08 I spent two years like that.

Jefferson Fisher 9:09 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:10 But I know my kid wouldn't have gotten to the place of being able to join and function if I just said, "You know what? She's not a kid who can go to birthday parties."

Jefferson Fisher 9:21 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:21 You know? You can't skip that step.

Jefferson Fisher 9:24 I like what you said a minute ago, and that was, "I'm not gonna take the progress away from you."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:28 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 9:29 So I think that was really pivotal, 'cause I think every time there's been that little, that puzzle that was really probably a little bit too hard, or maybe the Legos, it was a little bit outside of the age range, and I know they can do it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:42 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 9:42 I know, I know he can.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 9:44 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 9:44 I know she can. And if I just... What the miracle that I have found that's worked in my life is, I want you to put it down and pick it up tomorrow and watch, you'll do it even better. And there's something about me telling them that, and it comes from musical instruments I teach them to play or little bitty things that if I say, "Okay, then let's put it down. Tomorrow, I bet you'll do it even better."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:06 Uh, e- exactly. Sometimes you need a break. That is-

Jefferson Fisher 10:09 Well-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:09 ... legitimate.

Jefferson Fisher 10:10 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:10 Right? So, and also, I think what you're doing so beautifully, Jefferson, is you're doing that I believe in you part.

Jefferson Fisher 10:15 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:15 You're sharing a version of them, the kid who can do it better tomorrow-

Jefferson Fisher 10:20 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:21 ... that honestly they cannot access in themselves. This is the same in adulthood. If you're in a job and like, "Oh my goodness, I'm gonna... I'm being asked to do this presentation, and I've never done that-

Jefferson Fisher 10:31 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:31 ... in front of a group." And your boss says, "Look, you're right. By the way, when you go, you're gonna be nervous. Let's just get that out of the way."

Jefferson Fisher 10:36 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:36 "I gave this to you because I actually know you're gonna be able to crush it." That feels so helpful versus the boss who says, "Oh, you're nervous. You know what?"

Jefferson Fisher 10:45 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:45 "I'll give it to that other person." [laughs] You're like-

Jefferson Fisher 10:47 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 10:47 ... "No. That, that, that... Now I'm gonna be more nervous the next time."

Jefferson Fisher 10:50 [laughs] Yeah. No, that, that's... They're absolutely gonna be ner- more nervous the next time. Before we get going, a quick word from Factor. One thing that I have truly loved over the past six months or so is eating these Factor meals. These meals are microwavable. The, they are chef-inspired. They are dietician-designed easy meals that are anywhere from 30 to 40 grams of protein, which is awesome for me, and I always know they have a awesome, like, really good protein and vegetable that comes with it. They're easy. I pop them in. I have been eating them for lunch, I kid you not, probably for the past five weeks every day, and I look forward to every time I get a new shipment of them. They're fast, they're easy, and they really genuinely taste good. Better than any other, uh, you know, microwavable meal I've certainly ever had. They are fantastic, and I cannot get enough of them. And so I am... This, they get a big thumbs up from Jefferson. They have, uh, at least 100 different nutrient-dense menu items that you can choose from. They come right to your door, easy to put in your fridge, and just pop in, in two minutes, they're ready. Go to factormeals.com/jefferson50off. That's Jefferson, five zero, off. And use code Jefferson50OFF to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year until supplies last, until 10/31/2026. That's code Jefferson50OFF at factormeals.com/jefferson50off at factormeals.com. I am curious of your thoughts on I'm gonna set the stage.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:18 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 12:20 Okay. In the South where I was raised, the select baseball teams are insano. They are nuts, okay? It's, it's fall ball and seasons. It's all year round, and most of these boys don't wanna be doing it. They wanna be playing with friends, and they have parents that are-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:42 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 12:42 ... "No, you will," and I know some that are, "If you don't perform or you don't hit, there's no, you know, call it iPad. There's no... There's always, like, a, "We'll take you out." There's al- uh, ice cream. There's always some kinda carrot.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:57 No clothes, no dinner.

Jefferson Fisher 12:59 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 12:59 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 13:00 Yeah, something like that. No bath. Um, there's always a-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:03 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 13:03 ... carrot on, on the-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:04 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 13:05 ... on the stick. And I am curious, um, I'm sure I could package this differently, but I, I wanna know to the kids who don't wanna-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:14 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 13:14 ... go to, to the ball practice, who don't wanna show up and practice-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:19 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 13:19 ... the sport that they're in, how do these parents handle that?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:23 You know, I, I have a nuanced opinion of this, and I think if I talked to you a year ago, I would've felt really confident in my opinion. And then I actually did this series of interviews on my pod with athletes, right? Like Tony Finau, Russell Wilson.

Jefferson Fisher 13:37 Whoa, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:38 And I, I kind of expected, to be honest, I don't know why, them all to say, "Yeah, I was that kid at the gym. I was this." Across the board, they had a parent, [laughs] okay, who was like, "Let's go. Let's go," you know?

Jefferson Fisher 13:50 Get up. Let's go.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:50 Get up-

Jefferson Fisher 13:51 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:51 ... because one of my kids sometimes I'm like, "Hello? Go practice."

Jefferson Fisher 13:56 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 13:56 "Like, you could be better, and that should come from you." And it was just interesting, not like my, any of my kids have the raw talent of any of those humans. Let's just be perfectly clear.

Jefferson Fisher 14:05 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:05 But I, I was thinking they had raw talent, and I guess they also didn't have that. And I remember one of them saying it was probably not until age 13, 14, after honestly that habit of waking up-

Jefferson Fisher 14:16 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:16 ... in the morning, then I started doing it on my own. I was like, oh, 13, 14, okay.

Jefferson Fisher 14:19 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:20 Now, uh, if I zoom out from that, I, I think we're, I think we're really asking, like, what are we doing today, and is that in line with a goal that's gonna matter? Or is this gonna e- even be in line with helping that goal happen in the future?

Jefferson Fisher 14:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:34 If anything over time is more of our goal for our kid than our kid's goal for themselves-

Jefferson Fisher 14:41 Oh

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:41 ... the gig usually gets up at some point because at some point a kid gets old enough and they realize like, "I'm not scared of you. You can't put me in timeouts."

Jefferson Fisher 14:51 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:51 "Like, I can kind of get my own food from the pantry. You've helped me get so strong at this sport. Like, I, I actually could arm wrestle you and win."

Jefferson Fisher 14:57 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:57 Like, "What are you gonna do?"

Jefferson Fisher 14:58 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 14:58 The only kids that doesn't happen for are extreme people pleasers who seem perfectly in line until they're about 20-something and then usually are the ones who do, like, have a kind of-

Jefferson Fisher 15:11 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:11 ... early midlife crisis. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 15:14 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:14 Right? Of massive anxiety. So I, I think where I'm landing is there's a balance. Kids often don't inherently want to do hard things that are gonna be helpful in the long term. They want to do fun things that are easy today. By the way, probably me and you do, too, like most of the time.

Jefferson Fisher 15:35 Yeah, I was like, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:35 Yeah. It's not a kid thing.

Jefferson Fisher 15:36 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:36 It's a human thing, right? And so I just think there's a dance. Like, I, I don't love lording... I definitely don't like rewards or consequences-

Jefferson Fisher 15:45 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 15:45 ... for something that to some degree your home run is a little out of your control. Like, I remember when my, one of my kids played baseball, uh, one of the things I tried to say at the end was, "I, I loved the way, honestly, when one of your friends dropped a pop fly, I know that's frustrating 'cause it's true you probably would've caught it. I watched you turn away and not say anything."

Jefferson Fisher 16:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:05 "I watched you say, 'Nice try.'"

Jefferson Fisher 16:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:07 That was amazing.

Jefferson Fisher 16:08 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:08 That feels more in control than whether my kid, you know-

Jefferson Fisher 16:12 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:12 ... hits a home run. But I think you're talking about there's a lot of pressure. Who is this for? Is this our unlived dreams playing out, and our child is the pawn? Is this at all coming from a child? And what I know is if it's 100% parent and 0% child or anything near that ratio, that usually ends up blowing up in a big way when the stakes are higher.

Jefferson Fisher 16:35 And definitely comes out later.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:36 That's what I'm saying. Right.

Jefferson Fisher 16:38 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:38 Exactly, and the stakes being higher usually aren't about baseball. It's, yeah, well, I don't wanna... I'm at college, and it's, you know-

Jefferson Fisher 16:45 Yeah, or they're-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:45 ... whatever, Christmas break, I don't wanna go home to my parents' house. I'm gonna go home with my friend because-

Jefferson Fisher 16:48 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:48 ... I just feel, uh, kind of like a performance monkey in that house, and I don't have to do that. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 16:53 For sure. The next thing you know, they're 40 in a therapist's chair talking about when it all started at that practice.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 16:57 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 16:57 Now, I do know what it's like when my son who's... He's great, naturally great at soccer.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:04 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 17:04 He just didn't wanna practice. I get that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:06 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 17:07 I don't blame you. Practice, not all that fun. Uh, you want the immediate win.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:11 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 17:12 And it got to where it was, "Okay, I can set all this up. W- we're not gonna be some pro athlete-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:19 That's right

Jefferson Fisher 17:19 ... at soccer."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:20 That's right.

Jefferson Fisher 17:20 "So I just want this to be fun. So if that means we get outside and we're just moving our bodies-"

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:24 That's right

Jefferson Fisher 17:24 ... that's great. But I had some friends that, like, he wanted to motivate his son to go after the ball in basketball. His son was really timid. He wants him to go touch the ball and, you know, if, if he shot it, he was gonna get a new video game, and, uh, that really bothered me-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:41 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 17:42 ... Becky. Like, I, I was like, "I don't, I don't... I... That feels misaligned to me."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 17:46 I... Yeah. Look, and I, I don't love that either because I think it, again, confuses, like, we're getting in each other's lanes. I'm kind of as a parent really getting in my kid's lane. Again, so for most kids, youth sports are about building character traits.

Jefferson Fisher 18:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:01 Most you- most kids are not gonna be Russell Wilson and Tony Finau, no matter what. There's just very few people. So it's about learning sportsmanship. It's about learning how to work hard. It's about bouncing back from failure. It's about sticking with the basketball game when you're down by 12 points.

Jefferson Fisher 18:15 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:15 It's about going to the game when you know you're gonna get crushed. Like, there are-

Jefferson Fisher 18:19 I love that

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:19 ... you know, when you know you're gonna get crushed by a team by 40 points, there are kids who are sick every time.

Jefferson Fisher 18:25 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:26 Not my kids. Uh, uh, again, they're going with that cough because you've gotta learn, you've gotta show up even when you know something's [laughs] gonna be hard.

Jefferson Fisher 18:33 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:33 You know? And so I think-

Jefferson Fisher 18:34 I've never heard it explained that way.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:36 It-

Jefferson Fisher 18:36 And I think that's, I think that's wonderful. That, that, that, those kind of team sports, they're about building character traits.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:41 That's it.

Jefferson Fisher 18:42 I- and that's it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:43 And by the way, I hear one of my friends in my ear being like, "Becky, you talk a good game." When you watch your kid not be aggressive at a sport-

Jefferson Fisher 18:51 Oh, that's hard

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:51 ... it is the most triggering thing.

Jefferson Fisher 18:53 It's bad.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:53 So I'm just saying.

Jefferson Fisher 18:54 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 18:54 It's so hard, and sometimes it's just framing it in a different way, and giving yourself something to look for that's a little different. Uh, it, it stops us from, you know, moving too far [laughs] in that direction.

Jefferson Fisher 19:05 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:06 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 19:06 Ha- having to... Yeah. Well, um, they have, you know, baseball dads, they have soccer moms. They have all, all these, the, the little leagues of the world that, um... I think what you said is exactly right, of who are we doing this for?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:19 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 19:20 Is it your unlived dreams?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:21 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 19:21 Are you, are you driving your kid's car?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:23 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 19:23 Um, or-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:25 That's right

Jefferson Fisher 19:25 ... are you allowing them to, to do what they want?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:27 And I have two more things to say about youth sports, 'cause it's actually one of my favorite things. So number one, what you were saying about your son with soccer, where I think the mismatch comes, and then both the resentment and aggression is, okay, my kid doesn't really wanna practice on their own.

Jefferson Fisher 19:38 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 19:39 But I am paying for two private lessons for them, but they practice 0% besides those lessons. I am putting in, as a parent, so much more effort to my kid's sports than they are, and then I end up yelling, "You don't care." I, I think it's okay to set up a system, and I'm just using private lessons as an example. It could not be private lessons. It could just be going to soccer practice-

Jefferson Fisher 20:01 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:01 ... because that still takes up my time. I'm allowed to say to my kid at any point, I would encourage a parent to do this, 'cause I think we've over-corrected as a generation to our kids becoming like the pilot of the family [laughs] plane.

Jefferson Fisher 20:12 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:12 "Hey, you wanna do soccer. That's amazing. I, I, I wanna let you know kind of how this can work in our family, because we love watching you play soccer, but also it takes our time, it takes our money, and so you asked for that private lesson. Here's how we can make that work. Every week, if you have a private lesson, there have to be two times that you practice on your own." That's not a threat. That's not a consequence. That's a way of saying, "Our effort equals your effort."

Jefferson Fisher 20:38 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:38 If it gets to the point where that's too hard to do, "Sweetie, that's fine. We'll still keep up your soccer team. I'm gonna pull back on the lessons." A- and I'm not saying this with aggression. I'm saying it so the family is in balance.

Jefferson Fisher 20:50 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 20:50 And I think sometimes we, we are just in the habit of doing and doing and doing for our kid, and we can just be honest about the system that, that feels better for everyone.

Jefferson Fisher 21:02 I, I, I agree with that mentality wholeheartedly. Um, I want us to be able right now-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:09 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 21:09 ... to kind of put on our nerd glasses and workshop-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:12 Great

Jefferson Fisher 21:13 ... our own three points-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:14 Great

Jefferson Fisher 21:15 ... uh, on how do we teach our kids how to handle hardship when things are-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:21 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 21:21 ... hard. What I hear you said a minute ago is, one, there's the element of, "I believe what you're going through is what you're going through." Like, "I believe that it's hard. I believe that it's difficult." I also heard you say, "I believe in you."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:38 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 21:38 Which is almost more important, I think, that they know that you, you see a different progressed version that they don't s-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:47 That's right

Jefferson Fisher 21:48 ... they don't see.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:48 That's right.

Jefferson Fisher 21:49 What, what's, what's a third one that we can add to this one?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 21:53 Um, that... I think the third thing is that the hard moments, when they lose a game or when they haven't yet been able to finish the puzzle or finish the math problem, just in your head to remind yourself, "This is the moment resilience is building."

Jefferson Fisher 22:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:10 They're gonna whine, right? So the hardest moments when your kid is struggling are the moments where resilience get built.

Jefferson Fisher 22:19 Okay.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:19 So don't take them away.

Jefferson Fisher 22:21 I love it. I'm gonna, uh, give you some of my own, um, parent struggles.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:29 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 22:29 Okay. Here we go. 'Cause I get... You're with me, so I might as well-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:32 Let's do it

Jefferson Fisher 22:32 ... let's might as well have a session. Um, so we just got back from Australia, and any time my kids come, my son is eight, my daughter is six, and she's been like this since she was four. We thought that it was gonna grow, it gonna be like a two-week thing. It is not. It has to do with her ability to walk and complain.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:52 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 22:52 Okay? Meaning, the farther she walks, you would think the more complaints. It's the same no matter what.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 22:59 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 22:59 Whether it's a two-minute walk or an eight-minute walk. If we're walking to ice cream or a playground, there's no complaints.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:06 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 23:06 But if we're walking to, let's say s- something else, we have to go to a museum, we have to go to whatever, th- she will complain the entire time. She will come up with, "My leg hurts," which we know her leg doesn't hurt, 'cause it only hurts when she's walking and it's not going towards ice cream. Uh, or she'll say like she has a growing pain in the other leg, or her tummy hurts, or she doesn't feel good, and it makes walking anywhere miserable.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:38 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 23:39 Because if she's unhappy, she is skilled at making the rest of the family unhappy. And so a lot of it is I'll have to be like... She'll be like, "Is it five minutes? How many more minutes now?" and it's been 30 seconds.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:53 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 23:54 And I have to tell you, it drives me up-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 23:58 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 23:59 ... a wall, and I'm good for a little bit. Honestly, I'm good for a little bit. But then towards like the fifth time asking, I start to kind of come unhinged.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:09 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 24:10 All right? It's... Then we have to have a talk, and I may not show up the way I want to. Or I did the bad thing, and that was I was so tired of it, I picked her up and carried her, which is probably what she wanted in the first place.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:24 Um, look, like I don't think the times we like pick up and carry our children, if that's like the worst parenting offense, it's not, it's not so bad.

Jefferson Fisher 24:30 No, it was-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:30 But I hear what you're saying. Am I reinforcing-

Jefferson Fisher 24:32 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:32 ... quote, "bad behavior"?

Jefferson Fisher 24:33 That.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:33 That's the first thing.

Jefferson Fisher 24:33 I pick her up every time she asks.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:35 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 24:35 Always. It's, it was, that was her version of getting out of ... walking. And there are plenty of examples that it could be whether it's a parent in a grocery store and their kid is throwing a fit, or they are at a department store or whatever it is.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:48 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 24:48 And you know it's just a little bit of hardship.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:51 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 24:51 Like, it's just a, a very s- short amount of time. You can make 10 minutes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 24:56 Yep.

Jefferson Fisher 24:57 And they act as though the world is absolutely crumbling, and I've done what you have said to do, and it's like, "I know it's hard. I know it's a bummer."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:06 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 25:07 "Yeah, this is a bu- I know this is long, and we wanna walk too."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:11 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 25:11 It doesn't-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:11 Okay, so let's-

Jefferson Fisher 25:12 It doesn't stop.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:13 So, okay, so a couple things. C- clarifying questions.

Jefferson Fisher 25:16 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:16 Long car rides that are boring, same thing, or?

Jefferson Fisher 25:19 Same thing.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:19 Okay. And something that doesn't involve a distance, but I don't know, we're going, we're having these people over who she finds boring, [laughs] a lot of complaints too, or-

Jefferson Fisher 25:29 No. Uh, it's, it's like-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:30 Like, in general, when she has to do something that she inherently doesn't love to do.

Jefferson Fisher 25:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:35 Is it, is it a struggle for her?

Jefferson Fisher 25:36 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:37 Okay. So that's, that's kind of what we're talking about then, it seems.

Jefferson Fisher 25:39 Verbally.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:40 Verbally. And then, and then when she gets to the place you're going, she, like, snaps out of it?

Jefferson Fisher 25:44 Yeah. She's, she's gone. It, uh... Or even if we're walking to a playground, if it's 15 minutes away, you'll hear it the whole 15 minutes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:51 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 25:51 And then as soon as the playground's in sight, you know, the bum leg she said she had disappears.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 25:56 Totally. Okay, so a couple things. I think what she's really saying is, "When I'm being asked to do something that I don't inherently want to do, you're gonna hear about it." [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 26:06 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:07 That's kind of, that's kind of... Right?

Jefferson Fisher 26:08 Yeah, yeah. That's true.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:09 Like, I'm not kind of a put on a smile-

Jefferson Fisher 26:11 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:11 ... and do it anyway kind of girl.

Jefferson Fisher 26:13 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:13 At least not now. Which just long-term, and again, there's a range, I, I always think, like, how few parents of 25-year-olds tell me, "I'm so proud of my compliant child. That kid just smiles no matter what's going on." Like, have you ever heard that?

Jefferson Fisher 26:27 No. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:28 Never.

Jefferson Fisher 26:28 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:28 Right? And you actually hear parents say, "I'm actually really proud of my kid. Like, when something happens that they don't like, they figured out, maybe respectfully, hopefully, how to speak up about it," right?

Jefferson Fisher 26:37 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:37 And so she's on the pathway to be that kind of 25-year-old who you're gonna be-

Jefferson Fisher 26:41 She's so fiery. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:42 Exactly. She's so fiery, and our kids who are fiery and who frankly aren't really so people-pleasing-

Jefferson Fisher 26:49 Mm-mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:50 ... th- they tend to do pretty well later on. They're just exhausting when they're young.

Jefferson Fisher 26:54 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:54 And I don't know if that's very different from your other kid, who's a little-

Jefferson Fisher 26:57 It's so different.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 26:58 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 26:58 But he- so he's, uh, what we say is my son, he cares about everybody's feelings.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:03 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 27:03 Extremely empathetic. He cares about everybody's feelings.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:06 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 27:06 My daughter cares about nobody's feelings.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:08 She cares about her feelings, it sounds like.

Jefferson Fisher 27:09 She cares about her feelings.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:10 That's right. That's right, and that's very typical first kid, second kid.

Jefferson Fisher 27:13 Okay.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:13 And one of the things that does happen, and this is where, this is a really good answer to the question, because all these dynamics are really important to understand, and this can happen in any family, but, but isn't it important to know that I've seen it, especially when there's two child kind of, uh, when there's two children in a family, it's especially kind of likely to get kids on a binary, because binaries exist in two.

Jefferson Fisher 27:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:35 So you have a kid who's the flexible one, a kid who's the selfish one, a kid who cares about everyone else, a kid who kind of only cares about themselves, a kid who's generous with everyone, a kid who wants their own needs met first. And unintentionally, it's really easy to reinforce these things when there's two, especially 'cause there's a binary. "Well, I can be more like your brother. Like, come on. W- do, do you see him?"

Jefferson Fisher 27:53 Ah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 27:54 "Do you see him complaining?" Like, and then what my kid learns is kind of, "Oh, I am the one in the family. Like, this is my role."

Jefferson Fisher 28:01 This is my role.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:01 "You're right. My brother's the one who kind of cares about everyone else and is easy."

Jefferson Fisher 28:05 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:05 "And I'm the difficult, fiery one," when actually both kids benefit from a little bit of the other. And this is gonna maybe be counterintuitive, and it's not my only suggestion, but almost always, like, if you, you know, if you're in my office, I'd probably say something like this. Like, "I wanna talk about, I wanna talk about your son for a moment. Like-"

Jefferson Fisher 28:22 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:22 "... kind of worries me he never complains-"

Jefferson Fisher 28:25 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:25 "... on his walks."

Jefferson Fisher 28:27 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:27 And he'd be like, "I don't think you heard me right." Like, and I'd be like, "No, I heard you right."

Jefferson Fisher 28:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:30 "Why does he never complain? Do you want him to be someone who just kind of walks along the road of anyone with a smile?"

Jefferson Fisher 28:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 28:37 Right? And the reason it's a counterintuitive intervention that helps is often, especially with two kids, one kid has to give up a little bit of always going with the flow and making life easy for the family for there to be enough of that trait for the other kid to take on. And so one of the things I would do, and I'll just share a bunch of ideas, is I'd say, "You guys, you know what's funny? When we go on walks, you know, you're always so calm and smiley. 'Don't worry.' And you, 'I get it. We hear. I hate walking.'"

Jefferson Fisher 29:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:04 "Do you guys think on our walk to Aunt Susie's house, like, we could-"

Jefferson Fisher 29:12 Swap

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:13 ..."swap? Do you think just for 30 seconds," whatever your son's saying, "can you be like, 'Ugh, I really wanna go and so...' "

Jefferson Fisher 29:20 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:20 "Can you, can you, like, collapse onto the ground?"

Jefferson Fisher 29:23 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:23 "And could you be like, 'You're so annoying. It's just a short walk'"?

Jefferson Fisher 29:28 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:28 And, and there's such playfulness in it, and it's actually really true that I happen to think any trait that lives in a system, there's only 100% of it, and if one sibling is hogging 100% of the generosity and flexibility, there really is nothing for the other one.

Jefferson Fisher 29:47 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 29:47 So that's one thing that, by the way, I would say the same thing in another sibling. I'd say, "Look, I know you always give your sister the red cup 'cause she has a hard time. I'm actually gonna help you keep the red cup because you actually need help keeping things when other people are upset. It's not always good to give your stuff away."

Jefferson Fisher 30:02 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:02 "I'm gonna help you keep it." And I... Right? And so it's just, it, it, it's like kind of intervening with, like, the good kid first.

Jefferson Fisher 30:09 Ah, how interesting.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:10 And it, it tends to really shift a system, 'cause that's all a family is, is a system where we end up taking on more and more extreme roles.

Jefferson Fisher 30:18 I think you're blowing my mind.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:19 Am I?

Jefferson Fisher 30:19 I'm thinking of, I'm thinking of all these things I could do with mine, with my son, um, and my daughter, reversing their roles and see-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:28 Well-

Jefferson Fisher 30:28 Because I, I like the 100% thing.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:30 Yes. Where I remember, I remember complaining to my therapist years ago, and I'm curious if you and your wife get into this. It's like, "Seriously, my husband, it's crazy. It's crazy. We get home from a long weekend. There's so much to unpack." He's sitting on the couch after a- who sits on the couch? There's... And my therapist, I'll never forget, goes, "I think you need his help." And I was like, "Yeah, I need his help." I was so fired. She goes, "I think you need his help sitting on the couch." I was like, "Are you a cr- am I paying you for this advice?"

Jefferson Fisher 30:58 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 30:58 I was like, "What do you mean?" She goes, "Well, look, Becky, he owns all of the I just had a long drive, I wanna relax, and you own all of the we have to get this done right now," which by the way, no offense, like you actually don't, just to, just to be honest, but-

Jefferson Fisher 31:13 All the unpacking, all the other stuff, yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:14 ... I'm gonna unpack, I'm gonna over-function, you know?

Jefferson Fisher 31:16 Right, right, right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 31:16 And if you ask for his help sitting down, my guess is you'd be shocked at one day when he goes, "You know, I'm gonna get up and just start unpacking." At least it paves the way for that. Because if you approach him as, "Why are you not like this?" He's not gonna say this, 'cause mostly unconscious. He goes, "Well, that's who, that's who you are. That's you." And so it was it, and it really did change things. It real- I hate to admit it, and I've seen it change things with my kids when I approach things that way, um, because it, it just puts more in the system to kind of redistribute.

Jefferson Fisher 31:51 Before we continue, I wanna take a quick moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. One thing that we have really enjoyed in my family are our '90s-themed movie nights. So typically once a week, maybe once every other week, we do a '90s-themed movie where Sierra and I kinda get to relive a '90s nostalgic movie, and we're talking like The Sandlot or something, and we're introducing it to our kids, and we love it. One thing that we have been using every time we do one of these, and it's kind of become a thin- thing of contention, is the Cozy Earth blanket. In fact, it's called the Cuddle Blanket. It's weighted. It feels like a bear rug. I'm telling you, every time we get under it, and we, our whole family can fit under it, one of us is falling asleep. Usually it's, yes, it's, it's this guy. I'm, I'm typically falling asleep. But I'm telling you, if you love family movie nights or you just like a nice cozy cuddle time by yourself with some tea, you need to go try out this Cuddle Blanket. I mean it. I love it. I cannot recommend it enough. Cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 20% off. That's cozyearth.com/jefferson. Use the code Jefferson for 20% off. And now let's keep going. I'm smiling so much because I'm seeing all the things-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:03 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 33:04 ... in my whole family where, who has 100% of a thing?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:07 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 33:08 You know, and if somebody has 100% of the thing, then it leaves no space for anybody else.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:14 100%. And this is not my way. In so many marriages, I think people say, "I over-function." It doesn't let your partner off the hook. It's not... Of course-

Jefferson Fisher 33:21 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:21 ... they have to do more. But it, it's a really... Usually we can't solve a problem, I know you know this too, it's 'cause our mindset, if our m- if our mindset i- is keeping us stuck, you don't need another strategy. You need to switch your mindset to kind of see something in a new way. And the idea of, oh, am I hogging something-

Jefferson Fisher 33:40 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:40 ... is just so different. And it also adds some levity and right, you just kind of-

Jefferson Fisher 33:43 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:43 ... laugh-

Jefferson Fisher 33:43 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:44 ... which also helps you get a little unstuck.

Jefferson Fisher 33:46 Well, I've just never thought of the, you know, well, maybe he needs your help sitting down.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:51 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 33:51 Or maybe, you know, for my son, you know, he needs, you need to be a little bit more complaining.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:58 That's right.

Jefferson Fisher 33:59 You know?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 33:59 Or you could go into her room one day and be like, "This is gonna sound so weird, and I know we talk about you complaining on drives. Is it ever kind of annoying that your brother doesn't complain?" [laughs] Like, are you ever thinking he's so uncomplaining?

Jefferson Fisher 34:11 Right, he's so calm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:12 He's so perfect-

Jefferson Fisher 34:14 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:14 ... all the time. I would understand that. And then you just leave it. You're not throwing your son under the bus, right? It also just kind of shifts, because I think what happens with quote bad behavior in general is kids always respond to the version of themselves we reflect back. We're a mirror. That's like our main kind of role as a parent. We reflect to our kids not just how they're behaving, but who they're becoming. And so when you say to a kid who never shares, "You never share. Why are you so selfish?" If you think about that from the perspective of being a mirror-

Jefferson Fisher 34:47 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:47 ... well, I can't reinforce the identity of being a bad, selfish kid and expect a lot of generous behavior.

Jefferson Fisher 34:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 34:54 And this example, I will never forget the moment. I was so frustrated with my daughter, and I wanted to say, "Why don't you share-

Jefferson Fisher 35:02 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:02 ... with your brother? Your brother gives you all of his snacks all the time." That's when... But I, I had a good moment, and I said, "I, I don't know what's gonna happen. I see he wants some of your snacks. All I can tell you is you have as much generosity as anyone else in this family."

Jefferson Fisher 35:16 Hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:16 "I know you do." And I remember this exact moment because he wanted the certain, like, Cheez-It things from the Chex Mix, and she gave him pretzels, okay? Not perfect, but like a huge, a, a huge growth step. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 35:33 Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:34 And I think it's, it actually is not different from what you said so naturally. I... What you see your kid is capable of doing tomorrow-

Jefferson Fisher 35:41 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:41 ... if I can't see the generosity inside my kid, h- how is my kid gonna see it in themselves?

Jefferson Fisher 35:48 How are they supposed to see it in themselves?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:49 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 35:51 I wanna s- switch gears-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:53 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 35:53 ... to boundaries.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 35:55 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 35:56 Now, I have a certain way that I like to communicate, 'cause you and I both talk in communication, that I like to communicate boundaries. I need to know from the source, Dr. Becky, on how do you like to communicate boundaries to kids?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:14 Often.

Jefferson Fisher 36:14 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:15 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 36:15 Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:17 Clearly.

Jefferson Fisher 36:18 Fre- frequently. Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:19 Frequently, sturdily.

Jefferson Fisher 36:20 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:20 Um, well, I think, and I think you and I have a lot of overlap here. I think people-

Jefferson Fisher 36:25 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:25 ... really misunderstand boundaries because over and over I'll have parents just say, "My kid doesn't listen to me. My kid doesn't respect my boundaries."

Jefferson Fisher 36:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:31 And I'll say, "Ugh, sounds like, that sounds exhausting."

Jefferson Fisher 36:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:34 "Tell me more." And I, I always get something like this: "Okay, well, my kid's watching TV, and I... they know one episode, one episode and turn off, turn off the TV."

Jefferson Fisher 36:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:44 "Turn it off." Okay, I'm gonna... And then I always laugh 'cause- We always just start counting as parents. Like, I don't know if you see that adult or CEOs do that. I've just never seen an adult, "I'm gonna count, I'm gonna count to five," then I count to five

Jefferson Fisher 36:57 Five? I, I got three

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:58 ... whatever it is. Three-

Jefferson Fisher 36:59 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 36:59 ... whatever it is. I count, my kid still probably, again, unless they're a people pleaser, they're not-

Jefferson Fisher 37:03 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:03 ... gonna do it, and then I make a threat that I have no intention of keeping. "If you don't turn off the TV, no dessert tonight."

Jefferson Fisher 37:10 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:10 Uh, and then I go over and I say, "You know what? That's it, you're punished," and then you come to my house when my kid doesn't listen.

Jefferson Fisher 37:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:16 And I would say, due, all due respect, that is not a boundary, right? And so I think we'll just start with what a boundary is before we know how to deliver it, and to me, a boundary is something you tell your kid you will do, and it requires your kid to do nothing.

Jefferson Fisher 37:27 Requires your kid to do nothing.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:28 Requires your kid to do nothing.

Jefferson Fisher 37:30 Okay.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:31 So in that situation, a boundary, first of all, in that situation, you should never let your kid watch TV while holding the remote. It's just a setup for failure.

Jefferson Fisher 37:40 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:40 So but let's say my kid is holding the remote. Turn off the TV, doesn't happen. "Hey, looks like it's hard for you to turn off the TV. I'm gonna walk over to you, and if by the time I get there you're not able to turn it off, I will grab the remote from your hand and turn it off myself."

Jefferson Fisher 37:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 37:56 And I would do that, 'cause people are like, "But then when you do that..." Like, [laughs] I feel like what do people think we work out for when we have young kids?

Jefferson Fisher 38:04 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:04 I work out for those exact [laughs] moments.

Jefferson Fisher 38:06 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:07 Like, that's why my biceps are decently strong.

Jefferson Fisher 38:08 That's right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:09 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 38:09 I know, I felt them earlier on.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:10 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 38:10 I was like, "Golly."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:11 There we go.

Jefferson Fisher 38:12 There you go.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:12 It's from the remote battles-

Jefferson Fisher 38:13 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:14 ... back in the day. Um, and then I think people think my children, my house say some version of, "Here you go. You're such a sturdy leader. I know you're doing this for me." No.

Jefferson Fisher 38:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:24 Your kid has one response to a boundary if they're not used to it. They freak out, and then you can say something short and sweet. I think we've gotten this wrong, and I talk about validating feelings, but we over-talk feelings. Like, I would just say, "Ugh, I know that stinks."

Jefferson Fisher 38:41 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:41 And then I turn off the TV, and I stop talking.

Jefferson Fisher 38:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:46 Not, "Have you seen the research? It's not good for your brain."

Jefferson Fisher 38:49 Yeah, or you over-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:50 So I'm gonna say what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna expect my kid to protest. I know I'm gonna tolerate that protest.

Jefferson Fisher 38:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 38:57 And then the way I'm gonna hold the boundary actually just has to do with my behavior in that moment, what I do or don't do, not anymore with my language. How does that vibe with your sense of boundaries?

Jefferson Fisher 39:06 I love it. Mine, you know, I, what I do-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:10 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 39:10 ... uh, is like you, people like, like these concise little things. What you're doing is my k- my child is doing something that I do not want them to do, and I now need to intervene.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:22 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 39:22 And my wife does... She follows what you do on the, "I can see you're having a hard time."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:29 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 39:29 "I can see that we're having a hard time letting go. We're having a... I, I, I see that you need help, uh, getting your shoes on, right? Because we've told you to put on your shoes three times and that, that hasn't happened," kind of thing. Um, very different from the way when it's just pure words and communication of, "You can't back-talk to me."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 39:51 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 39:51 And turning that into, "I don't respond to back talk." You see that, that, letting that be the boundary. "If, if you're gonna continue to back talk to me, then we're gonna spend the rest of the afternoon doing X or then we're gonna be doing X, Y, and Z." And that consequence being something that you're actually going to be willing to do. Don't, don't assign the false consequence. To me, that's one of the biggest crimes you can, you know, have of being, putting a consequence of if you, if you don't, I'm gonna take away this toy, you have really no intention of taking away-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:27 That's right

Jefferson Fisher 40:27 ... that, that, or, you know, "I'm gonna sell all your things."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:29 That's right.

Jefferson Fisher 40:30 Don't say things that don't have a true consequence. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:32 Right.

Jefferson Fisher 40:33 You know? Um, it's-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:34 I learned that the real hard way. My youngest is 0% people pleasing. I mean, he's amazing. He's gonna... He's so charismatic-

Jefferson Fisher 40:41 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:41 ... like a lot of these kids are, and there was a time I, I was not at my best, 'cause I'm not always either, and I was like-

Jefferson Fisher 40:46 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:47 ... "If you keep doing this, I'm gonna take away all your stuffed animals." This is a kid who's, feels so much older than his age but does sleep with stuffed animals-

Jefferson Fisher 40:53 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:53 ... 'cause he's really a softie, and it's like-

Jefferson Fisher 40:55 Love it

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:55 ... the meanest thing I could say. "I'm gonna take away your stuffed animals."

Jefferson Fisher 40:57 That is, that's pretty rough.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 40:58 This kid walked to his room. He gets a stool. He gets a roller suitcase from the top of his shelf.

Jefferson Fisher 41:05 Oh, no.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:05 He takes all of his stuffed animals.

Jefferson Fisher 41:07 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:08 Puts them in.

Jefferson Fisher 41:10 Zips it, gives it back.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:11 "Here you go."

Jefferson Fisher 41:12 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:12 I was like, "One-zero." [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 41:14 Yeah, that was good.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:15 But I think your reversal, Jefferson, it's interesting. You c- you can't talk to me that way. You're right, that's not in your power.

Jefferson Fisher 41:21 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:21 That's what I mean. Like, your p- your boundaries are your power.

Jefferson Fisher 41:24 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:24 So to give it away to your toddler, [laughs] it's not a good bet. "Hey, if you keep talking to me that way," whatever you say next, "I'm... Here's how we're gonna spend our afternoon," or, "I'm just gonna stay silent because I know you can do better," and then you do stay silent-

Jefferson Fisher 41:38 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:38 ... until they calm down. You're, you're asserting what you will do, and so then the success of the boundary has nothing to do with your kid.

Jefferson Fisher 41:43 Correct.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:43 Which is, I think, I think that's the key.

Jefferson Fisher 41:45 Well, the, it, there are two different things, you know. I think what you do is spot on with if there's an activity that I now need to inter- intervene on. If there is, where that kid is back talking, rude behavior, yelling-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 41:56 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 41:57 ... it's having that kind of thing, then that's a, um, I think, um, s- they both work in, in tandem-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:03 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 42:03 ... with each other because to me, it's, "Here is my requirement for how we're going to interact."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:09 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 42:09 "I've made my choice. What comes next, that choice is yours."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:12 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 42:12 "And if you want to continue to act rude, well, then this is where we're gonna, this is where we're gonna go. But understand that's, that's the consequence of your, of your behavior-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:22 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 42:22 ... and your action." I do, I find it funny on the one, two, three because I was... One of the things I was gonna ask was, you know, does one, two, three really work? I, I grew up on the one, two, three.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:33 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 42:34 Um, and I absolutely have used and will occasionally still use the one, two, three.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:41 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 42:42 When I need them to go upstairs and get ready for bath, th- they know how to get ready for bath. They're just kind of playing around. They're finding some ways to procrastinate and, you know what. And so when I get to two- My son's gone

Dr. Becky Kennedy 42:56 Of course he does

Jefferson Fisher 42:57 Right? My daughter will look at me and count to three. She'll say three to my face.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:02 I love her.

Jefferson Fisher 43:03 Okay? So she, she is-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:04 I love your son, too. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 43:04 She... Yeah, yeah. I'm telling you, it- she, she suffers no fools, okay? And so, um, it's, it's the best that way. So what I've done instead is I will just do, like, [laughs] sometimes I'll make it fun as a, like, can y'all beat me up there?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:26 100%.

Jefferson Fisher 43:26 Then if I do that, it's like, "Y'all can't beat me." Then it's, as soon as I act like I'm going, they're gone, and they w-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:32 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 43:32 ... because they wanna... And then it's now it's a team, they won against-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:37 Against you

Jefferson Fisher 43:37 ... against me.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:37 And look, kids like that, like your daughter and my son, they have this need, and, and it's healthy, it doesn't have to be unhealthy, to feel powerful.

Jefferson Fisher 43:43 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:43 And they wanna, they always wanna tell their parent, "Hey, I know you're bigger than me, but I, I really need you to know I'm a person, too."

Jefferson Fisher 43:49 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:49 Right? Which is why she's like, "Three." [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 43:51 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:51 Cool.

Jefferson Fisher 43:51 This was she at three.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:52 Three.

Jefferson Fisher 43:52 Right, around three.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:53 I'm gonna say it before you say two. Want three.

Jefferson Fisher 43:54 Yes, yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:55 Now what? Like, what do you got?

Jefferson Fisher 43:56 Exactly. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:56 And, and what you're actually doing in a game-

Jefferson Fisher 43:58 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 43:58 ... is you're giving her a much more pro-socially effective way-

Jefferson Fisher 44:03 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 44:03 ... to feel powerful.

Jefferson Fisher 44:04 And you're great at c- at, uh, doing it, of having all these tips of make a game. Find a way to make a game into it, and that's true with her. I can make a game and all of a sudden it's-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 44:16 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 44:16 ... it's, it's totally different.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 44:17 You know, another thing, kids like that, and I don't know if you've ever tried it, tried it with her, um, because there are times when you're like, "I can't make a game," or, "I just, like, need you to do this thing," you know? And I remember this moment, I was sitting with my youngest... Sorry, I was not sitting. You'll hear why.

Jefferson Fisher 44:31 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 44:31 He was sitting on a disgusting New York City sidewalk, and I was-

Jefferson Fisher 44:34 Ugh

Dr. Becky Kennedy 44:34 ... crouching. Even I won't really sit there, and he wouldn't walk to a restaurant we were going to. "I'm not going." Right? And he's, he was big. So I was like, okay, I, I started doing this random thing, and my husband's like, "What are you doing?" I was like, "What is..." I can't remember what it was, but it was a math equation. I was like, "What is if I have two groups of apples?" I just kind of... He's a kid who really loves math, and he feels very strong and capable at math.

Jefferson Fisher 44:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 44:59 And I kind of knew, he was sitting down as a way of saying, "I'm a strong, capable kid. Uh, what are you gonna do?"

Jefferson Fisher 45:05 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:05 And I was like, I wonder if I give him some, like, kind of random exit into a different form of capability-

Jefferson Fisher 45:12 Hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:12 ... if he'll kind of get that need met. I swear it was insane. What ended up happening, he stands up, he's like, "That's not the right answer. It's this."

Jefferson Fisher 45:19 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:19 You know, he's, like, walked into it. I was like-

Jefferson Fisher 45:21 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:21 ... "Got you." And so I'm curious for your daughter with even, like, if you don't have it in you to run up the stairs-

Jefferson Fisher 45:27 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:27 ... what is her area of expertise? Like, I know someone else who's like, "I tried this by saying the wrong song lyrics to something from Frozen. My daughter's-"

Jefferson Fisher 45:34 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:34 ... "obsessed with Frozen, and as soon as she corrected me-"

Jefferson Fisher 45:38 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:38 ... the cooperation followed."

Jefferson Fisher 45:40 She's definitely that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:41 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 45:41 She'll, she'll find a way, you know, to, to kind of add her two cents.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:44 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 45:45 My, uh, favorite thing, uh, that she says right now is [laughs] you know, uh, my son's never said this, and here she is six, and it's, she just goes, "Why do you always have to tell me what to do?"

Dr. Becky Kennedy 45:58 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 45:59 Like, that was her line, and I thought, you know what? That's-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 46:05 Oh

Jefferson Fisher 46:05 ... I'd be frustrated about that, too, like I'm always being told what to do.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 46:09 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 46:10 Uh, so I, I, I just kind of laugh it off of, "Baby, I, I get it. I-"

Dr. Becky Kennedy 46:15 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 46:15 ... you know what? Sometimes I don't want to be told what to do either. You know Daddy g- gets told what to do, too, sometimes?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 46:21 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 46:21 You know what? I don't really like it either.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 46:23 I, I think that's ex- that's the plight of a child.

Jefferson Fisher 46:25 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 46:25 You know? [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 46:26 Right, for sure. Do you think that boundaries change as, uh, the, the boundaries that you need to give to a kid, do those boundaries change as they get older?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 46:39 Yes, and your ability to set true boundaries, right, versus a request-

Jefferson Fisher 46:46 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 46:46 ... right, with an older kid gets increasingly hard. Young kid, "Hey, it's too hard to leave the playground. I'm gonna pick you up and carry you to the car." My kid's three, it stinks, but they-

Jefferson Fisher 46:55 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 46:56 ... can do that. My kid's 14, "Hey, it's time to leave the party. I'm gonna carry you," definitely not happening.

Jefferson Fisher 47:01 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 47:01 So-

Jefferson Fisher 47:02 Or a kid's 16. It, it's-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 47:04 The phone charge is in the-

Jefferson Fisher 47:05 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 47:05 ... you know, kitchen, as an example. Well-

Jefferson Fisher 47:08 Or they can drive.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 47:09 That's right.

Jefferson Fisher 47:09 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 47:09 I mean, their... Most boundaries, the truth is, as people get older, are more requests that you need some cooperation around. Like, the- because again, they're bigger. You can tell them what you're gonna do, but I think what that means is older kids definitely need boundaries, especially around screens, especially around phones-

Jefferson Fisher 47:29 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 47:29 ... especially what's in their room at night, things like that. Um, but the importance of being connected to your kid only matters more-

Jefferson Fisher 47:38 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 47:38 ... as you get older, because that's the only way your kid will listen to-

Jefferson Fisher 47:41 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 47:42 ... anything you say. Like, the only reason a teenager is gonna tell you the truth or cooperate on something that they don't inherently want to do when they're 15 versus 5-

Jefferson Fisher 47:53 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 47:54 ... is that they have, over the course of their many years, felt seen by you, respected by you, and, and sometimes I think, you know, and, uh, the adolescence that we have in America has traditionally been, um, you know, full of so many arguments. The teen years are the worst-

Jefferson Fisher 48:10 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 48:10 ... right? And look, teens are meant to separate from their parents, and they, we all over-correct before we kind of come back, right?

Jefferson Fisher 48:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 48:16 So we have to push our parents away.

Jefferson Fisher 48:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 48:18 But I do think that if you have parented your kid only through rewards, punishments, fear, your kid becomes 14, and if they're not a people pleaser, they look at you and they just think, "I am not scared of you, and I-"

Jefferson Fisher 48:34 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 48:34 ... "don't care about your stickers. I don't care about your stickers, and we have missed 14 years of having a relationship."

Jefferson Fisher 48:39 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 48:39 So that rule about my phone-

Jefferson Fisher 48:43 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 48:43 ... there was no relationship to kind of stick that flag in.

Jefferson Fisher 48:47 Yeah, because it's, it, um, it's... I feel like the little things you do when they're five and six-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 48:53 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 48:53 ... it's just all compound interest to what you have when they're 25.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 48:58 That's the only thing you have when they're 25-

Jefferson Fisher 48:59 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 48:59 ... is your relationship. And I just have to say, because I think we've mistaken the two, connecting with your kid is a completely different thing than saying yes to everything your kid asks.

Jefferson Fisher 49:08 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 49:08 Keeping your kid happy all the time actually tends to lower your- ... or connection with your kid.

Jefferson Fisher 49:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 49:13 Um, there's only one way you can connect with your kid, when they're in optimal comfort and happiness. That's actually a very, very limited form of connection, and so I just want to make sure to establish those are-

Jefferson Fisher 49:23 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 49:23 ... very different things.

Jefferson Fisher 49:24 They are.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 49:25 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 49:25 I'm glad you pointed that out. Um, I have a question. What is something that parents do that is well-meaning-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 49:35 Hmm

Jefferson Fisher 49:35 ... but more often causes more harm than good? What do you see that tends to kind of r- rise to that level-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 49:46 Yeah, I-

Jefferson Fisher 49:47 ... in your practice?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 49:49 I, I mean, I, at the risk of sounding repetitive, although it's, it's important 'cause it's always the thing, is I think optimizing for kids' comfort and happiness leads to relief of a hard situation in the moment.

Jefferson Fisher 50:04 Can you say that again?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 50:06 Optimizing for a kid's comfort and happiness in the moment leads to relief today, but tends to lead to a lot of entitlement and fragility and anxiety later on.

Jefferson Fisher 50:21 Hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 50:22 And so, like, I'll give an example. You know, when we're recording right now, school year's about to start. Like, you find out your kid isn't in class with their best friend, right? And they're upset. "All my friends are in this class." Like, calling the school, or before that happens, calling the school to make sure your kid is in class with their best friend. It feels [laughs] like it, it feels like a really loving thing to do.

Jefferson Fisher 50:47 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 50:47 Right? So it comes purely from love. But I, I tend to think in a l- long-term, greedy way about parenting, that my kid's gonna be out of my house more than they're living in my house. The stakes only get higher, and what we do in the early years has an inordinately large impact on the rest of our kid's life. And so do I want to forever be the person who rescues my kid from the discomfort of having to be in a class with new kids? Which sure, that won't happen forever, but my kid is gonna have a job one day when they don't know anyone. My kid is going to have to be in new situations. I'm actually depriving my kid of the chance to feel capable, and worse, I'm sending my kid a message that I don't think they're capable.

Jefferson Fisher 51:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 51:32 I have to micromanage their life and make their world tiny, and then they feel very tiny, even though they might not have a tantrum, you know?

Jefferson Fisher 51:41 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 51:41 And so I, I guess I feel like maybe kids are screaming out to us, um, "Help me develop into the type of adult who's gonna be able to succeed in the world."

Jefferson Fisher 51:53 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 51:54 And I think about teens especially, and young adults I used to see, and I think this really matters, who legitimately felt angry at their parents. And I-

Jefferson Fisher 52:03 For making their life too comfortable?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 52:05 Like, "Oh, me yelling at you as a 12-year-old was enough for you to change your decision?"

Jefferson Fisher 52:14 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 52:15 Like [laughs] grow up.

Jefferson Fisher 52:16 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 52:16 Like, that, like, now I have to suffer the consequences. And I think when we think about kind of our kid in the future, um, it, it, it helps us make decisions that help our kid through a tough situation today in a way that's actually gonna prepare them for the world they're gonna encounter tomorrow.

Jefferson Fisher 52:38 How do you raise a, a confident kid-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 52:41 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 52:42 ... who is not also entitled-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 52:46 Ugh

Jefferson Fisher 52:47 ... self-important, full of themselves?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 52:49 So I want to break apart two words, confidence and entitled, two of my favorite things, because... Okay, so going back to definitions-

Jefferson Fisher 52:56 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 52:56 ... right? I think we've been given a definition of confidence that makes us optimize for the wrong thing.

Jefferson Fisher 53:02 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 53:02 I used to think confidence was feeling good about yourself. I don't know, I feel good about myself. I don't think that's confidence at all. I think confidence is self-trust, which are actually very different things when you think about intervening. Because when I think about the most confident person I know, and this is what got me thinking about confidence differently, it was this girl in my class in a seminar at Duke who was super smart, just like really, really brilliant, and there was a part in the seminar where I still remember this, I was so confused by what my professor was saying.

Jefferson Fisher 53:31 Hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 53:31 I was just like, "I don't really know what you're saying."

Jefferson Fisher 53:32 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 53:33 And I just remember thinking, "Ah, I don't know." I looked around. Everyone else seemed to be nodding. I was like, "I guess I'll figure it out later." This girl shot her hand up, and she goes, "I'm really sorry, and I'm sorry if everyone else gets this. I usually understand everything you say. I'm totally confused the last [laughs] couple minutes. Is there any way you could say it in a different way? It feels important to understand." I was like, "Damn. Damn." That's confidence.

Jefferson Fisher 53:53 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 53:54 She trusted her confusion-

Jefferson Fisher 53:56 Hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 53:56 ... enough to say something. And more than that, she was able to hold onto something complicated in that moment. I'm a good, smart person who is confused right now.

Jefferson Fisher 54:05 Hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 54:05 If she was trying to feel good, which frankly, back in the day when I was 18, I was, if I was trying to be confident by feeling good, I talked myself out of my experience.

Jefferson Fisher 54:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 54:15 It's probably fine. So I think building confidence in kids comes from very different things. When our kid says, "I'm the only one in my class who can't read," confidence doesn't come from saying to that kid, "That can't be true, but you're the fastest runner." That's what we say when we're trying to make a kid feel good about themselves. A kid comes home and says to their dad, "I'm the only one in my class who can't read," and essentially someone says back, "That's not true." [laughs] Like, that's what we're saying.

Jefferson Fisher 54:42 Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 54:43 You don't feel that way.

Jefferson Fisher 54:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 54:44 Confidence is actually built when you say to a kid in that situation, "Ugh. First of all, thank you for telling me this. Tell me what happened today. Sounds like a hard day."

Jefferson Fisher 54:54 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 54:55 I can tolerate this experience in my kid. Now my kid's gonna be able to be confident because they're gonna be able to tolerate a wider range of things that happen to them instead of a narrower range.

Jefferson Fisher 55:06 How do you make... What can a parent do to make sure that their kid is not ... entitled-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 55:16 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 55:16 ... or full of themselves bec... And, and what I mean is-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 55:19 Yep

Jefferson Fisher 55:19 ... you know, I, I wanna boost my kids with all the, "I believe in you so much."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 55:24 Yep.

Jefferson Fisher 55:26 And what I don't want is ever the f- the fear is, on the other end of the spectrum-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 55:32 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 55:32 ... is the ego, the, you know, Lucius, uh, the Draco Malfoys of the world. You know, that's, that's not what I want. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 55:38 Well, give me, give me a scenario made up of an entitled kid that you're like, "Becky, I have the heebie-jeebies thinking about that."

Jefferson Fisher 55:45 Um, there was a kid who I, I know, and they have every... First off, they're wearing every trend that could be happening, okay? From head to toe. Everything every, any kid wants, that my son wants, this kid has. Phone, already at the age of, like, eight. Um, and is listing off all the places that he's gone to-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 56:14 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 56:14 ... with his parents, okay? And doesn't really care to share at all with any of the kids. That, to me, comes across-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 56:22 Right. Uh-huh

Jefferson Fisher 56:23 ... as somebody who's r- probably entitled.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 56:25 Yeah. Agree. So what I hear in all those things, has every single brand, already has a phone, doesn't share. I think entitlement is fear of frustration.

Jefferson Fisher 56:38 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 56:38 That's what it actually comes from in our body. And what I mean by that is if every time a kid is frustrated... You know when you get frustrated when you want a shirt and your parent says no. When you want to play with blocks and you have to wait. When you ask for a phone and you're told, "Yeah, no way, you're eight." Okay, whatever the version is.

Jefferson Fisher 56:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 56:59 Whenever you want something and you don't have it, you're frustrated. Okay? So think about this kid. I don't know him.

Jefferson Fisher 57:06 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 57:06 But every time his body got frustrated, it sounds like it was met with an off switch. And it looks like it's about money, and money is complicated with entitlement because primarily, the way a lot of people use money is to turn off frustration. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 57:23 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 57:23 Right? And so, "I want this shirt," ordered. "I want a phone," at Verizon, right?

Jefferson Fisher 57:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 57:30 "I don't wanna share these blocks," I'm making this up.

Jefferson Fisher 57:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 57:32 "Okay, I'll get your sister one set and I'll get you another set-

Jefferson Fisher 57:34 Right. Forget it

Dr. Becky Kennedy 57:34 ... and you'll never have to actually share." It's not about sharing or items, it's actually about your body never learning to tolerate the frustration of not having something. But it's worse, which is why it's fear. When every time you're frustrated you have a parent who turns it off by giving you something, you actually wire your fear next to your... Your parents are scared of you being that way. That's why. That's the only reason they'd avoid it.

Jefferson Fisher 57:57 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 57:57 And so they give you everything. And so entitlement, even in adulthood, right, all that is actually-

Jefferson Fisher 58:03 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 58:03 ... under the hood is someone who's frustrated and probably still has the coping skills of a two-year-old. Or worse, they've lived a life, Jefferson, where someone has shut off the frustration.

Jefferson Fisher 58:15 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 58:16 So now, "I'm sorry I'm not bumped up to first class even though I am a Medallion whatever."

Jefferson Fisher 58:23 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 58:23 What they're really saying is, "Where is the person who will turn off my frustration-

Jefferson Fisher 58:31 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 58:31 ... because I have learned that that's what the world will do."

Jefferson Fisher 58:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 58:34 That's r- And so the best way to not have an entitled kid, and I could be concrete about this, is to make sure you don't take frustration away from your kid, or to make sure there are literal doses. In your... Like, "Hey, can you drop me off before we go to-"

Jefferson Fisher 58:50 Intentional doses.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 58:51 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 58:51 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 58:51 "My, my sister's soccer game?" "No, sweetie, we're going as a family." And by, and-

Jefferson Fisher 58:56 [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 58:56 ... by the way, your kid might say, "But my sister doesn't even play. She's on the bench the whole time."

Jefferson Fisher 59:00 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 59:00 You're like, "Yeah, that's... And we're not bringing her, right? But we're gonna do that every Saturday, and it's not gonna be fun. And I'm gonna expect you-

Jefferson Fisher 59:06 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 59:06 ... to whine." That is not a kid who feels entitled to personal pleasure and enjoyment every hour of their weekend, because they have built in time where they are actually frustrated and not getting exactly what they want. That's so important.

Jefferson Fisher 59:21 H- how do you know if you're spoiling your kid?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 59:25 I mean-

Jefferson Fisher 59:25 I, I can tell you, I, I'm, I think I'm overly cautious-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 59:31 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 59:32 ... of it. If I have to lean one way, I'd lean on, in terms of, like, I'm really aware of, okay, if my kid is having a different experience than what another kid is having, I, I, I feel like I need to have a conversation with him about how this is different and this is not what everybody gets. Or there, I'm, I'm afraid, I don't want to have a spoiled kid.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 59:55 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 59:56 And so I know there are other people listening, and that's, like, one of their biggest fears-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 59:59 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 59:59 ... is having a kid who's spoiled.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:00:02 Yeah. I, I think, "How do I know if I have a spoiled kid?" is very similar to, "How do I know if I'm creating an entitled kid?" And I think you know when you watch what happens when your kid has to do something that's not for their enjoyment, when they have to wait-

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:17 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:00:18 ... or when they have to do something that inherently isn't enjoyable. And if you watch your kid over and over have huge meltdowns around that, I would say to a parent, it doesn't mean you're having a spoiled kid. It means you have to really shift things and make sure your kid has more opportunities to fold the laundry and unload the dishwasher- [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:37 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:00:37 ... and go to their kid's soccer game, go to their sister's soccer game.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:40 Can I share with you what's one of, been one of the bus- biggest conversation-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:00:44 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:44 ... boosters around that whole, at least that's helped my fear of, "Am I raising a spoiled kid?" is getting them involved in any type of community service activity.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:00:54 Totally.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:55 And you have to make it a family thing. And so whether it's mission trip, whether it's helping, uh, with a, an initiative for, you know, people who are underprivileged or whatever it is.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:01:07 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:07 I have found that that has at least a, at least opens the door for trying to reverse that, because I think there are a lot of people who go, "Oh my gosh, I give my kid an iPad at the drop of a hat, and the TV's on all, all the time, and I, we don't... There are-" They, they have-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:01:25 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:25 ... everything that they could possibly want, and I've made nothing difficult, and they, and they really are spoiled. How do we reverse that kind of thing?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:01:31 A- and so I guess I- I'll amend my answer, 'cause I think that's really good. I think one way to not raise a spoiled kid is just to pay attention to how your kid reacts when things don't go their way. And if they-

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:42 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:01:42 ... really can't tolerate it, it's a sign they need more opportunities for things not to [chuckles] go their way. Now, another thing I think that matters is impact on the world around them. There's something about the word spoiled, it's not just about having things. It's kind of a sense that I am the protagonist of the universe, you know?

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:01 [laughs] Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:02 Not just of my life.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:03 I'm the main character. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:04 Yeah, of, of everyone's life. And so when you do community service, even when you do involve your kid in doing grocery shopping for the family while you stay in the car-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:14 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:14 ... in New York City while you stay in your apartment-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:16 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:16 ... they have an opportunity to exist in the world-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:20 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:20 ... and feel impactful. Because I think the most generous interpretation of a kid who's entitled and spoiled is they're kind of just always gazing in only, like their own needs-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:32 Ah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:32 ... and their own wants. And so beyond learning to tolerate not having, they... You're right, they have to get out in the world and kind of be involved in other people's worlds.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:44 I keep thinking of the, the 100% thing.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:46 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:46 That I, I, I'm, I'm telling you, right after this I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna tell Sierra, say, [laughs] "We're gonna be trying something." Um-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:54 It's just as true in marriage. It's true in any system-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:56 I believe that, too

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:57 ... any system.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:58 No, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:02:58 You know?

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:59 I, I think it, um, it spans any system.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:03:02 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:02 I, I absolutely agree to that.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:03:03 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:04 This is a, a point that is, uh, akin to what we just spoke about. How do you raise a human who can handle being told no?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:03:17 Mm. I mean, I think it starts with being a parent who says no to your kid.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:27 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:03:28 I, I... You know, a couple years ago someone came up to me and goes, "Dr. Becky, I hear we're not supposed to say no to our kids. Everything should be a creative yes." I'm like, "Where are you getting this information?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:40 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:03:40 "Can we go to the park?" "Yes, we can go on Saturday." I'm like, if I had to change-

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:46 [laughs] Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:03:46 ... everything. Like, also, if we just think the world today is a little bit of a microcosm with my kid for what they're gonna carry here, they're not gonna get a million creative yeses.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:55 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:03:56 Now, if a parent listening to this is saying, "Great, that feels validating. I say no to my kid with 95% of my communication," that's not gonna be a great relationship.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:05 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:04:05 But most parents today have over-corrected, and we find a creative yes, or we think we say no, but we actually ask our kids permission. We do this weird, "Okay?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:17 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:04:17 At the end, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:18 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:04:18 You know, "Can I watch another show?" "Look, it's not good for you, okay?" That-

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:22 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:04:23 "Can I watch another show?" "No, sweetie, TV is over."

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:26 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:04:27 Then stop talking. So that, I think about this concept of emotional vaccination a little bit.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:33 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:04:33 Like, if we think about the purpose of a vaccine, it's to give your body a chance to respond to something before the big thing is coming.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:42 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:04:42 The big thing is your boss is gonna say no. Your-

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:44 Correct

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:04:45 ... girlfriend's gonna say no. Those are high-stake situations sometimes. So every time you say no to your kid, and hold the line lovingly and firmly, they're both possible, you're getting your kid ready. And I think, yeah, what I want parents to know is if for the first time at 20 they're hearing the word no, it's kind of unfair to expect my kid to just react well to that when it, it probably feels like an assault on their body 'cause they've [laughs] never really-

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:15 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:05:15 ... heard that before.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:17 If you want your kid to learn how to handle being told no, you need to start with maybe telling them no.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:05:24 And then stop talking.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:25 And then stop talking instead of trying... Because what will happen is it teaches them that there's, there's something after the no. There's a chance that we can negotiate this-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:05:36 Y-

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:36 ... and compromise this and, and possibly break you down.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:05:40 Yeah, and I think we have this negative view, like, yeah, then my kid, you know, pushes further, tries to manipulate me. Like, if I'm a passenger on a plane, and I somehow knock on a, the door of the cockpit, and I say, "Can we, you know, detour to Hawaii?" And the person's like, "No, but let me explain why, and let me ta- "I, I, my, I'm sorry. You're supposed to be-"

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:59 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:05:59 "... focusing on the flight."

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:00 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:06:01 "No."

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:01 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:06:02 "Done." It... I'm gonna push further because it actually makes a kid feel very unsafe-

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:08 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:06:08 ... when they're being recruited as kind of the need to approve of their parent's decision.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:15 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:06:16 Like, "You're, you're, you're now asking me to make you feel better for saying no," they do act out more because they don't really feel like they have a sturdy leader.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:25 Yeah. My, um, [laughs] my son, when I, I will tell him, like, "Okay, hey. It's, it's time to put down the, the..." He loves to read.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:06:35 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:36 So, "Okay, we need to put down the Kindle. It's time to go brush your teeth." He'll go, "No, thank you." [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:06:40 So polite.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:41 Very polite.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:06:42 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:42 He's learned if he's, can try and be polite. He'll be like, "No. No, thank you, Dad. I appreciate that, but no, no thank you." And he's, he is absolutely, [laughs] completely genuine about it. And so I have to be like, "That's very polite. We still need to, we still n- to make that work."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:06:57 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:58 And my kids, uh, for good or for bad, are very good at finding every... If the door is locked, they're gonna check every window, you know, to every argument that there is. And so a lot of the times he starts to kind of create an argument, and I'll be like, "I see where you're going. I respect that. I appreciate that. I'm gonna give you points for creativity. The answer's still no. But when I do the I'm giving you some points-"

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:07:27 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:27 ... for some, you know, standing your ground on this-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:07:30 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:30 ... I, I, I admire that. So when I ... compliment not the, exactly the, the content, but I'm complimenting or acknowledging the character trait-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:07:45 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:46 ... it seems to go a lot better when, you know, for my daughter who, like we said, is very fiery, I'll say, "I see that fire. I like that. It's very strong. I love your strong personality."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:07:57 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:57 But need to... But there's something about that that it, it, it f- it flows. It flows through, and they don't mind going through it once I have been like, "Okay, that was a great point."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:08:09 Yeah. I think what makes sense about that is I think at any age we're all just looking to feel seen.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:14 Yes. Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:08:15 And we're not actually looking to feel seen in the very specific content on the surface. We're looking to feel seen in the part it comes from.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:22 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:08:23 Right? And so when we do, we all get a little more flexible on the surface. Like, when my kid says, "I don't wanna go to school today," "You're going to school," right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:33 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:08:33 "Okay. I have a stomach ache." I have... It, it just is gonna escalate 'cause I think the thing my kid needs to hear is, "Yeah, that makes sense. We just finished summer. I wouldn't really wanna go to school either. I gotta get your breakfast ready, bagel or yogurt?" Like, that's as my- [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:47 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:08:47 And, and that, that part, once that's seen, for all of us-

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:51 Right

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:08:51 ... often loosens up.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:52 To be able to say, "Hey, I see the element-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:08:55 That's what you did

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:56 ... yeah, the character trait in here-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:08:57 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:57 ... that we can at least affirm rather than going, "No, I said... Because I said so. I said no."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:06 That's right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:06 "I said you should've," you know.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:08 Because that part of your kid probably is amazing. You're a kid who asks so many questions. After every answer, you have one more question.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:14 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:14 Uh, you're a really curious kid. That's gonna take you far in life. Your questions will only take you so far today with me. I am tapped out. I love you. You know?

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:21 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:22 Like, but that's true. You don't want your kid to think they shouldn't ask questions.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:25 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:25 So name it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:27 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:27 Set the boundary. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:29 I love it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:30 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:31 Um, I wanna f- uh, switch to school really quick.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:33 Okay.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:33 What, what can a parent do w- in the... Let me rephrase that. What should a parent be doing in the first five minutes that they pick up their kid?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:44 Oh, such a good question. I actually think the first five minutes with your kid in the morning, the first five minutes you see them after school, and the last five minutes-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:52 Ooh

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:52 ... of their day are just the three most impactful times.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:55 I agree.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:55 Sometimes I think, can I just be a good parent 15 minutes of the-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:58 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:09:58 ... 10, what if it's two? Um, so it depends on your kid's age, but, but actually it's probably mostly true. The biggest thing when you pick up your kid is to be available without questions and without an agenda. Okay?

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:14 Just if you can, that means when you pick 'em up, quiet.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:10:18 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:19 All right. I love it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:10:19 It's so hard because we have so... We wanna know. We wanna know about their day, but, I, I mean, I'm sure you too. You travel all the time. You're doing a million things, and you come home, and if the first thing is, "Jefferson, how was your day? Who was your guest on your podcast? What'd you eat for lunch?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:35 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:10:35 "Tell me who you played with today. Did you end up following up with this doctor?" You're like, "Ah," you know?

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:39 [laughs] Yeah, I wouldn't like it.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:10:40 Um, and it's not because anyone's wrong. It's just because i-i, you've just done a lot. You need to transition, right? And so I think sometimes the most loving thing we can do and we can show is just show up, right? Um, and just try not to have so much of an agenda. Know you're gonna get your questions answered probably in those last five minutes before bed, even though it's inconvenient-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:02 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:11:02 ... when kids tell you everything. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:04 It is.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:11:05 Um, and, and I think the thing I want parents to know is, [laughs] like, presence is an action.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:12 Tell me more.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:11:14 So you want me to just do nothing? You want me to j- like, that's... You want me to just do nothing?

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:11:18 I think just do nothing is a very funny phrase. Do you know how hard it is in 2026 to do nothing? Do you know how hard I have to work to stay quiet in front of my kids?

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:28 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:11:28 I am doing nothing on the outside, and I am doing everything on the inside to regulate my anxiety, my own needs, my own emotions. The irony is when we all do a lot on the outside, we ask all those questions, or our kid is mad at us. We're like, "You can't talk to me that way."

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:45 Right, right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:11:45 It looks like I'm doing something on the outside, and I'm doing nothing on the inside.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:50 Yes.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:11:50 And so, yeah, it's not just doing nothing, and I think the thing as a very... 'Cause I talk a good game, but I love action. So that phrase as a mantra when I'm quiet in the car, when I'm quiet when my kid yells something at me that is inappropriate but also is just a sign they're not really in a-

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:10 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:11 ... productive conversation place. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:14 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:14 Presence is an action. Presence-

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:17 I love it

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:17 ... is an action, and it, and it helps me feel like it's enough.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:20 So when you pick up your kid-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:21 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:22 ... if we can boil this down, let's say, one, resist the urge to say all of your litany of questions. "Hey, how was your day?" Which is probably gonna get a, "Fine," "Good," a nothing.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:34 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:34 Best to leave silence.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:38 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:38 Two, be ready to catch if anything's coming. M- maybe nothing comes on that car ride, right? Noth- may- maybe they're not wanting to talk.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:46 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:46 I'll ask my son, "Did you play any music?" And sometimes he'll go, "No."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:49 Yep.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:49 And we just ride in silence.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:51 Great.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:51 And he's totally good 'cause then he'll start to hum, like, by himself.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:54 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:54 And I already know he's calming himself down.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:12:56 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:56 And three, know that it's probably gonna come. The questions are... All the information you want to know is gonna happen right when you're laying them down to bed and they're not wanting to fall asleep.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:06 And you wanna be on the couch.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:07 And you, and you, and you-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:08 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:08 ... and you're so exhausted. And you're so exhausted.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:11 Now, my one trick, and I'll share it-

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:14 Yes

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:14 ... for finding out about your kid's day before the last five minutes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:17 Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:17 Still give yourself the transition don't. Kids love to correct parents. They love to correct parents. I was just watching this reel. They're like, "I ask, oh, did you play soccer with Jai?" "It's Jay."

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:29 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:29 It's... Right? It's, like, so intense.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:31 Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:32 You can use this. So when you say to your kid, "What did you do at recess?" Nothing, right?

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:39 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:39 I randomly would say, not in the first car ride, "Oh, today at recess I was playing with Max, and it was so annoying. He always has to go first on the slide." My, my kid always will go, "That's not what happened. Well, what actually happened is Max wanted to be quarterback and this."

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:52 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:53 And I'm like, "You just walked away."

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:55 It's, it's perfect.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:13:55 And so kind of pontificating in a way that lets your kid correct you-

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:01 Yeah

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:14:01 ... not in the first 20 minutes is a great hack to kind of find out about a young kid's day.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:05 I love it. That's fantastic.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:14:07 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:07 What is one of the biggest misconceptions when it comes to parenthood?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:14:12 That you have to get it right all the time, because I just want to establish, getting it right all the time would be bad for your kid.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:20 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:14:20 Forget not being possible, the model of a relationship we have with our kid forms the foundation for how they think about love in the future. So I don't want my kid to go into adulthood thinking, "Who's gonna get it right all the time? Who's gonna be perfectly attuned to my needs?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:36 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:14:37 And so repair is really the most important part of good parenting, and you can't repair if you don't mess up. So if you think about that, if you're gonna try to get good at repair, step one is yelling, is snapping, which doesn't mean, "Great, I'm gonna do more of that." [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:56 Right. Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:14:56 It means when that happens, 'cause I'm human, I now have the opportunity to do the healthiest thing for my kid's future. I can go and say, "I'm sorry I yelled. I'm sure that felt bad. I'm working on staying calmer even when I'm frustrated."

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:15:11 And that is so powerful to a kid.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:14 When you say repair is one of the number one things-

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:15:16 Mm-hmm

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:17 ... that you have to be able to show in parenthood necessarily means you have to mess up, and they need to see you mess up.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:15:24 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:26 The phrase that I use to model repair with my kids is, I will say, "Daddy didn't say that very nice, did he? I, I, I could've said that better."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:15:38 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:39 And what I have found, Dr. Becky, is, not yet in my daughter, but my son, he'll say, "I didn't say that very nice, Dad."

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:15:49 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:49 "I need to say that again." And so it's that, like, little... But, see, we would never, we would have never gotten to that place had I not raised my voice or not said it as kindly and been perfect.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:16:02 Uh, that, that's right.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:03 So you have to see it, the, the, the, they have to see the humanness.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:16:06 That's right. And I, I think the other thing there is the words we use with our kids become the words they use with themselves and the words they use with others. It's not a surprise he says the exact words you do.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:16:20 And it's also not a surprise your daughter will probably take double the amount of time to get there, given her personality. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:25 [laughs] Right.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:16:25 But she will, so don't doubt it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:27 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:16:27 It really will, and you're right. You couldn't have ever shared those words, which, by the way, your son will use for so many years after he's out of your house.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:16:36 That could have never happened if you were perfect, always calm, always saying the right thing Dad. So yeah, it's such a gift.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:45 And honestly, that's such a, like, a relief moment that I can actually be a little kind to myself rather than beating myself up of, of whether, uh, I didn't do it as perfectly as I should have.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:16:56 Yeah, I think that's the best it gets in parenting. Whenever I hear myself [laughs] talk on a podcast, I leave thinking, "I'm gonna do one of those ideas I talked about today."

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:03 Yeah. [laughs]

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:17:04 "I'm gonna do a little better today, and then I'm gonna repair a lot more."

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:07 Yeah.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:17:07 I think that's, that's what I try to hold myself-

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:09 Mm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:17:09 ... accountable for.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:10 Love repair. What do you say to your kid when they say, "I can't. I, I can't do it"?

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:17:14 Mm. Okay, I think there's what you say in the moment, but I think the power is what you say before those moments. There's only so... You can only be so effective in a hard moment-

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:24 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:17:24 ... in any situation. So in a calm moment, find your kid, and truly say this to them when it's calm. "By the way, do you know that whenever I'm frustrated with something hard, I have this voice in my brain, and it starts to trick me. Instead of it saying, 'This is so hard,' it says, 'I can't.' That might happen to you. It might happen to you today when you do your homework."

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:45 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:17:45 "Could you let me know if it comes?" I'm actually preloading a story for them, and their relationship with I can't, I really mean this, is forever different, because instead of it coming by surprise and taking over, they're looking for it. You know how insanely different that is? Now my kid is doing math homework, and they will be able to say, "Dad, I heard that I can't voice." That is mental health, your ability to recognize something before it's taken over. Then in the moment, I think you can reframe it. "I can't." "You're right. This is a really hard puzzle. You're right. It's really hard to start an essay."

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:18 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:18:18 And then I would get practical. My second grade teacher told me this. I will never forget it. I use it with my kids all the time. "If something feels too hard to do, it just means the first step isn't small enough."

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:27 Mm.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:18:27 "So what is the first step?" "Well, I have to write this essay." "Oh, I couldn't do that either. What's smaller? A paragraph. That sounds intimidating. What about a sentence? What about a word?" And usually when you make something small, your kid can do it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:39 If you can put it into a story or a voice or a other, then it's, it's not I as a person cannot. It's I'm hearing the voice that says that I can't.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:18:51 Well-

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:52 Very different thing

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:18:53 ... that's any emotion or thought. As soon as you can s- kind of see that thought as a passenger in your car-

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:00 Mm-hmm

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:19:00 ... instead of the driver of your car-

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:03 I like that

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:19:04 ... it changes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:06 Dr. Becky, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:19:09 Thank you.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:09 I admire you a ton.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:19:10 Oh.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:10 Thank you so much.

Dr. Becky Kennedy 1:19:11 So fun.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:11 Awesome.