EVERY SPOKEN WORD
50 min read · 10,341 words- 0:02 – 1:33
Welcome, how the live coaching Q&A will work, and inviting audience participation
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hey, everybody. Welcome. How are you doing? Wherever you are in the comments, I want you to say hi so I can see them. I may not be able to see them in real time, but I like to go back. This will be recorded, so if you can't make all of it, don't worry. Uh, we're just gonna be taking it easy. I haven't done a coaching call in a pretty long time. Usually we do this as a master class, as you all know, and I'm teaching some certain subject, and we're gonna be talking about that. Uh, but we had hundreds of questions from y'all, so thank you for sending those, and I was able to take a lot of these in big chunks and big topics. And while I'm talking, don't ever feel afraid to talk in the comments, whether it's a question or a point, because I promise you, somebody else probably has that, that question, too. And I like seeing where you're from. I have some people that, uh, we chose their question and they're gonna be coming up on stage, virtual stage, with me because they had a question that represented kind of a big chunk of things. And so I read every question that y'all had, and there were a lot of the same things, a lot of the same topics, and so I kind of ca- categorize those in a sense. And I just want to tell you, I'm really glad that you're here. So I feel, I feel like I haven't been able to have a coaching call outside of my community. Inside the community we have these monthly, but haven't done this live out- outside, and so feels good. Feel good. I, I hope that right now you have a smile on your face and it's... We're just gonna
- 1:33 – 3:03
Quick grounding exercise: setting intentions for better conversations
- JFJefferson Fisher
be, we're gonna be taking it easy. Y'all are here, uh, in the living room [laughs] and so we're just gonna be trying to make sure that we are being as open as we can. I want to start off, if you're good with this, and I know you will be good with it. I want to start off for a moment just kind of respecting the space that we're about to create. Cool? You with me? So if you're watching... If you're driving or walking, please don't do it. But if, if you're good with that, I want you just to close your eyes for a moment. I want you to just take a big breath. Just a big breath in through your nose and out through your mouth. And already you should be starting to kind of relax. I am by no means any kind of meditation teacher, but what I can tell you is this is helpful for us to take a moment and set an intention of how do we want to show up in our conversations and use our words. And I am proud, and I want you to be proud of the time that you're committing to here. You ready? All right. Eyes open. All right. First up, I want to make sure that we have it right, is Kelly is... If you, if... Also in the comments, Kelly is the one helping me in the background. Those in the membership, you all know Kelly. Give Kelly some love and tell her how amazing she is. Uh, Kelly's gonna pull on, uh, our, our first, first question
- 3:03 – 7:40
Workplace interruptions (women talked over by men): naming the problem and the stakes
- JFJefferson Fisher
of the day. Hey, Sarah, what's going on?
- SPSpeaker
Hey, so lovely to meet you. Um, the question that I have is, how would you deal with men who constantly talk over people in meetings?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh.
- SPSpeaker
So the outcome that I need is solutions to prevent men from talking over me or other people in meetings, because I work with a lot of entrepreneurs and investors, and it's deeply frustrating. [laughs] So I need you to give me some stock phrases or questions that can be used to diffuse the situation, because it's very frustrating. And then secondly-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- SPSpeaker
... when in a conversation, when someone is hammering their point and talking over you and also quite entrenched in their view, which means that things can get a bit stuck and not move forward the way that you would like things to be moving forward. So how would you advise trying to flip the conversation so that whoever that person is listens to the perspective that you're bringing? I feel like if we can solve this, we might just change the world.
- JFJefferson Fisher
No, that's no lie. Uh, is it... You go by Sarah Louise?
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Uh, where are you from, Sarah Louise?
- SPSpeaker
I am from Northern Ireland.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. I, I could tell from the accent. I, I wish you could do-
- SPSpeaker
And it's weird
- JFJefferson Fisher
... I could listen to you read the phone book, uh, is what it sounds like.
- SPSpeaker
My mom introduced me, introduced you to me, so she found you on Instagram.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
She sent me all your content.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs] What's her name?
- SPSpeaker
She's called Iris.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, well, shout out to Iris. Thank you so much, my love.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's awesome. [laughs] That's perfect. Uh, Sarah Louise, I know I'm being light-hearted, and I also know that you asked a very serious question, because there are people on this call that are nodding their heads along. And if you're somebody like Sarah Louise who goes, "Yeah, this is a real thing," I want you to, one, support her there in the comments and say, "I know what it's like. I feel you." Because the truth is, there's, there is a disparity. There are things that certainly in the workplace, there is a, a demarcation line between what women can say and what men can say, and how, as a consequence or result, you'd be treated that way. Your first question that I heard you say was, what are some phrases I can use when, in particular men, are interrupting you? Do I understand that right, Sarah Louise?
- SPSpeaker
Correct.
- JFJefferson Fisher
All right. Also, kudos to Sarah Louise. That, that was a very direct, awesome question. Here's what comes to mind for me, and I want you to feel free to push back or if you think this is... You have a question about it, because this, this is your time and there are other people who probably also have the same kind of questions, all right? Is when somebody is interrupting you- What I want to do is I'm going to hit... Ooh, I know what I want to do. I want to hit it globally, and I want to talk specifically to this, what are some phrases that you can use because the downfall is, right, the consequence is you say something and it either m- it colors you a certain way, right? They, they're, they're going to... The men are going to interpret you as something different, something lesser than, something that is... It's not favored or looked upon, am I right?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. It's, I think p- partly it is the entitlement that their opinion, that they're either right or that their opinion carries more weight.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And often what I've experienced is that they neglect to find out the experience that the other people are carrying when they could actually speak into a situation and be incredibly knowledgeable or bring a really interesting perspective that they had never heard about or thought. And I'm not timid, so I will call it out normally, but I need different ways to do it so that it's not so, um, so that people don't feel shut down.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I want to make sure before I get going, are these, the men that you're thinking of, are these peers? Are these people who are managers or supervisors? Like, where are they in the, the hierarchy?
- SPSpeaker
Um, at all levels, I would say.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. [laughs] That's fair. That's fair enough. All right.
- SPSpeaker
It's an easy one to solve then. [laughs]
- 7:40 – 11:14
Strategy 1 for interrupters: let the first interruption happen (and why)
- JFJefferson Fisher
All right. So what I'm going to share with you, I want you to know are, are my first level thoughts. All right? You know and many people know how I talk about interruptions. W- my rule is when somebody interrupts you, you let them do it the first time because I, if we go pause and time out, what is it about them interrupting me that doesn't feel good?
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It feels like they are saying I'm not important. I, I don't have a voice. I'm not here, I'm just here to listen, and I'm wrong and they're right, and that doesn't feel good. And also if we say, okay, let's flip that perspective, and what are they thinking right now? Maybe it's insecurity. Maybe it's excitement. Maybe it's anxiousness. We don't know yet.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So that's the point. We don't, we don't know yet. And the reason why I say let them interrupt the first time is because they... You, you and I, Sarah Louise, I already know that you kind of have that, this sense of confidence, I can hear it from you, of knowing just because they interrupt you the first time, they don't take anything away from you.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right? Just because they interrupt you doesn't mean that you no longer have something to say or that all of a sudden they've taken that, that spotlight. Uh, in other words, both things can be true, that they can interrupt and you can be just as confident, full, solid, grounded-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... as you were had they not.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So when they interrupt the first time, I let them go. Why? Because they weren't listening to me anyway. They weren't going to listen to me anyway. They already were running, brr, through their mind of what they wanted to say. And what it allows me to do is give first almost a sense of grace to that conversation, that just, that moment, because not only were they n- not going to listen to me, but I have to let them pour out their drink. Like, if I'm going to fill up their cup, I'm going to first have to let them pour it out before I can say anything else. So it's like let them get it out, and then I continue on exactly with what I was saying. I don't go, "As I was saying," you know?
- SPSpeaker
Mm. Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Or I, and I'm not going to do any of that. That's something that's kind of passive. Um, but you see how it's easier to do that, just let them go the first time, rather than going, "Excuse me, I was talking." Right? Everybody goes, "Whoa. Hold up. Like, okay. Some... Yeah, Sarah Louise has something to say, everybody. Okay, let's, let's hear it." You know? Um, because a lot of the times that's... Let's call that giving away... Let's, I'm finding the word. It can make it seem as though it is almost weakness in a sense.
- SPSpeaker
Right.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Because it makes it sound desperate, and we're not desperate. We're confident.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Another thing of letting people interrupt first is some people can't help it. Now, we're not talking about friendships and conversations on the couch. We're talking at work here, and some people can't help it, whether they have ADHD or they have some type of, there's some type of neurodiversity where they're, they can't help but get out that thought, and they need to get out that thought right then and there. All right. So let's say they just said what they need to say. You're going to come right back to it and continue to talk. You're not going to address what they said yet. You're going to continue to
- 11:14 – 16:16
Strategy 2: stop the second interruption with their name + a calm boundary line
- JFJefferson Fisher
talk. If they interrupt again, Sarah Louise, this is where you get to say first their name. Right? Names have a very particular power because it's like, um, [laughs] it's like a, a bell to a dog, right? They... Or a whistle.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Or f- you know, for my kids, it's like opening a bag of chips. You know? They could be upstairs and I open that bag of chips, and they know exactly, you know, what's going on. As a way of getting our attention.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
If you've ever had somebody call you, like, the wrong name and they introduce you, and like, "Oh, this is..." I've had it once where they called me, like, "This is Harrison." And I was like, "Ugh, I don't, [laughs] I don't even want to be here." Um, there's something wrong with, you know, when you know that's, this isn't the... Something, my identity, this is who I am, so there's nothing more beautiful than the sound of somebody's name to them.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So when you need to get their attention, so they interrupt a second time and you need to get their attention, let's say, um- Let's, I don't know, let's say Greg. That feels like a very interrupter name.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Uh, so let's say that, and sh- and if there are any Gregs on the call, just know that wasn't for you. Uh, not... The, the other Gregs, the other Gregs that are out there. And y- you go, so they're inter- interrupt a second time, you go, "Greg, I can't hear you when you interrupt me."
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm. That scares them.
- JFJefferson Fisher
What that does... And what, what it does, why that works is because without you saying, "You're interrupting me. Stop interrupting me," they already know they are. It's you saying, "If you want me to listen to you, I, I can't, I can't do it. It can't happen." It's like, uh, I sometimes will use that kind of technique on, uh, our kids. When they have that whiny voice, I say, "I can't hear you." [laughs] And, and all of a sudden they know, like, [clears throat] "Okay, let me fix it and ask it the right way." So when I say, "I, I can't hear you when you interrupt me," and we have to do it always in a tone that is assertive and balanced, as if you are not put out.
- SPSpeaker
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's, it's very solid. If you look like you're aggravated, well, they're only gonna get aggravated by you.
- SPSpeaker
That's true.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so if we come at it as a very calm tone of, "Greg," and trust me, he's gonna stop, right? Because there's nothing like the sound of somebody's name. They- they're going to pause. This works really well when somebody's trying to dominate a conversation in a meeting and they're just, you know, you didn't sign up for a lecture, but yet you somehow have a seat to one, and they're just talking away. A name is a, is a wonderful way of, rather than trying to, like, "Yeah, uh, yeah, but e- excuse me, but, I mean, but, but," and you're trying to... And they're not. They, they're just oblivious. They're a big freight train blowing through. When you use their name, it's gonna stop. "I can't hear you when you're up, uh, when you interrupt me." Another I like is, "I will, I will, I will listen to your point. I want to hear your point. Let me finish my thought." Or, "I will listen to you when I'm, when I'm done with this." If I tell them, "I'm gonna hear you," in other words, "You haven't missed, you haven't missed your chance. You know, I'm, we're, we're gonna talk about this. I do, I want to hear what you have to say. Let me finish this thought." Because I'm telling that it, that's me relieving that anxiety possible, or that fear that they're having of, "I need to say this now or it's gonna be lost," or they're not n, they're never gonna come back to it. And so if I tell them that, that's a great way of signaling back. Now, there are times when, you know this, Sarah Louise, it don't matter. They're, they're gonna continue to just steamroll on. That's when I think you need to put up a boundary. So there are levels to it, like-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... with anything else, and that boundary needs to sound like, "If there's not room for me in this conversation, th- then I, then I need to exit it." You know? Of, I, I love the idea-
- SPSpeaker
I'm stubborn. I'm too stubborn to do that, though.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Say what?
- SPSpeaker
I'm too stubborn to exit the conversation because I do-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Is that the Irish? Well, well, I can't tell-
- SPSpeaker
That's probably it, yeah. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs] Okay. Well, that's fair. So what I want you to know is for people who aren't as strong as Sarah Louise-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... um, and, and is ready to knock them in the-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... in the jaw, um, one, one avenue, [laughs] one avenue is to put a bound-
- SPSpeaker
Violence never works.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, exactly. [laughs] When words don't work. Um, is to put up that kind of boundary, is, "I'm, I'm not gonna be in a conversation in which I, I'm only here to listen. This, this is, this sounds like a one-way conversation. Um, and if, if this, if that's how it's gonna be, then, then we're gonna have to rearrange this." To be able to say, "Then this is gonna be the end of this conversation."
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- 16:16 – 19:27
Handling entrenched or dominating speakers: use questions that make ‘no’ easy
- JFJefferson Fisher
I... When you go, okay, so now we have that general framework, right, of interrupters. When we talk about s- stuff you can say to some of these men, the biggest thing I need you to know, Sarah Louise, is when you want to react really strongly, really negatively, I know that's what your brain's telling you, it will almost always act the opposite. Like it will-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... only affirm, it will only confirm to them that you are who they think you are, somebody who is emotional, easily angered, reactive, rather than somebody who's, somebody who's controlled. I like using questions, when you turn statements into questions. Um, or maybe you need to clarify. "I, I need to know before we continue i- if, if there's room for me in this conversation or this is something that I'm only participating in. You know, am I only, am I only here to listen?" Um, when you say, "I need some thoughts," this is kind of part of your second question of what are some phrases that I can do when, um, I need to share something and they're kind of, you said they're dogged in their view. You know, they are really, really entrenched. What I really like to do in those moments is I'm trying to get to a, to a no answer, meaning to get to a yes, I'm getting them to a no first. For example, instead of saying, asking the question, "Are you ever gonna let me talk?" Right? You, you want them to say yes, but it's hard for people to say yes. Instead they, they would rather say, they'd rather say no. Instead, I want you to say something along the lines of, um, "Are you against a different perspective? Are you against looking at this another way?" What it does is they're gonna say no, because no is much easier to say.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You see how you've now opened the floor in a very confident way?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And instead of, um... Go ahead. Push back. Do you have a thought?
- SPSpeaker
Um, no, I think, um, that's really helpful. I tend to... If it comes to a point where they've been going on for a bit, I just kind of let them, and then I'll ask a clarifying question, like you've said.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And normally the clarifying question will either take them by surprise or will notify them that they haven't been clear in what they've said, or they're lacking in some way that hasn't included people that I feel maybe need to be included in the conversation. So it's a-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... it's a hard environment because it's, like, entrepreneurs moving fast, investors moving fast.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
And that's good. Um, but I just have clocked over the years that it has been frustrating, and instead of it stealing my peace, which I don't want it to do-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- SPSpeaker
... I would just prefer to have other methods. But it's been really helpful what you've said. Thank you.
- 19:27 – 24:55
Clarifying without triggering defensiveness: replace ‘So you’re saying…’ with affirmation-first framing
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Here's some others that, that come to mind. So it's using ways that are like... I like using, "Are you against? Would it offend you?" Um, um, or would... Not would you be open to, but, like, this idea of I'm, I'm using the negative first to prop up my sentence. For example, the, "Are you against?" Right? Instead of, "Are you for?" Um, "Are you against?" "Are you against looking at this another way? Would... Are you against hearing so and so's perspective?" Being able to stop them with their name, right, and then asking that clarifying question. What kind of clarifying questions do you like to use, Sarah Louise?
- SPSpeaker
[lips smack] It depends really on the scenario. So if something isn't clear, I will repeat back to them, "So you are saying that X, Y, Z."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
"Does this mean X, Y, Z?" And if it's, if it's obvious that they're, what they've shared doesn't make sense, then it gives them the opportunity to reframe and fill in the information. But often that can be a frustrating point because then that's sometimes when they dig their heels in because instead of... Their sense is I'm trying to make them look stupid. That's not the case. I'm trying to ask a question because what they've shared has not been clear.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I think that is a very common scenario. Um, when often we are... It's not the, the fact that you're trying to label or mirror, because those, those are effective techniques. When sometimes the fact that their question is even repeated out in the air makes them feel like you disagree with it.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so that in turn makes them feel more insecure.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. And so I think there is a very easy way of propping it up of just simply what you hear. Um, instead of, "So what you're saying is-"
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You hear that, that almost sounds accusatory.
- SPSpeaker
Okay.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Let me get this straight. What you're saying is blah, blah. And they're thinking, "Wait, she doesn't, she doesn't like this. She doesn't believe it. Now I have to get more ammo. Now I have to, like-"
- SPSpeaker
Yes
- JFJefferson Fisher
... build up my wall more. I want you to switch that, okay? I hear you saying that this is really important. Or better yet, use the word I agree, but don't do it in terms of... 'Cause you don't have to agree with what they said.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It can be, "I agree that, that, that that is a worthwhile perspective. I agree that's something to worth... I, I think, I agree that's something to consider." You see how they're not... How much better that is than, "So what you're saying is if you were in our position, you would do X, Y, and Z." That feels as though you almost don't believe them-
- SPSpeaker
Okay
- JFJefferson Fisher
... even though your intent is to clarify. What they're really needing is let's, let's do it more of an affirming clarification that doesn't feel like they're trying to... You're questioning what they said, but rather than you're hearing what they said.
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And I, I think that would be a... I think that'd be a lot more helpful to you. I wanna make sure that you feel equipped, Sarah Louise. Because I, I don't want you to waste any of your time with me, first off, of feeling like when somebody's saying something and you feel like you're not being heard, to stop the interruption and say, "I need you to hear this." And be comfortable with those kind of phrases of, "I, I need you to receive this. I, I need to know that, that this is being heard."
- SPSpeaker
Mm-hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, uh, using that I need, being extremely direct of what exactly you're needing from that, from that conversation. I do like using questions as that form to, to call out if somebody else is, you know, not interested. You know, maybe it's even, "Are you against hearing my perspective? Are you against hearing..." It doesn't have to be yours. You can say, "Are you against hearing another take?"
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And then you giving yours. "Are you, are you against another approach to that?" So let's say they're saying something, let's first acknowledge and go, "I hear that. What I, I hear is X, Y, and Z. Are you against hearing another perspective to that?" And they're gonna go, "No." Rather than you go, "Let me make sure I got that right. You're saying that blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah." Um, and then going, "But you know what that doesn't consider is..." And they're, they're not gonna hear you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They're only gonna start gathering up, you know, their ammo. But I think you, you already sound like such a strong, uh, voice. I can see how sometimes your concern is whether you come off too strong.
- SPSpeaker
Um, I think I just don't want... I, I want to diffuse. I don't want to inflame a scenario. I want... I'm, I'm very good at flipping things when, when it's really hard to bring joy and use humor and all that kind of stuff.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
But I don't want it to get too difficult, um, unnecessarily. But really-
- 24:55 – 30:24
Tech hiccup with Courtney; transition to Katie in Brisbane (3:00 AM)
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay, awesome. Thank you for that. Everybody in the comments say thank you, Sarah Louise. That was awesome. That was great. [laughs] Looking over here, I see... Okay, I think we have Courtney up next. Hey, Courtney.
- SPSpeaker
Hello.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hey. I am a fan of-
- SPSpeaker
Ooh, I can't hear you
- JFJefferson Fisher
... your car.
- SPSpeaker
I can't hear you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Can you hear me now?
- SPSpeaker
Dude.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Can she hear me? Can y'all hear me? She can. She can? You're good. Oh, we can hear you, but she can't hear me. No problem. Can you hear me now? You have an AirPod in? She's fixing it. Hey, guys, this is just real life. Okay, everybody can hear me. Got it. Courtney, can we hear you? Can you say something?
- SPSpeaker
Can you hear me?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- SPSpeaker
Okay. I guess it can be a one-sided conversation. I can-
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
I have no idea why I can't hear you. I'm so sorry.
- JFJefferson Fisher
No. No, you don't, don't, don't worry about it. Go ahead, go ahead and ask, ask your question if you can, uh... Oh, she can't even see me, Demi.
- SPSpeaker
I was hearing you a second ago, and then now I can't. When you were with the other conversation.
- JFJefferson Fisher
What a bummer. Okay.
- SPSpeaker
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Courtney, this is what I want. Um, Kelly, if you don't mind, communicate with Courtney off screen, and then let's pull up Katie. And then that way Courtney can... we can try and figure it out while, um... in the background. Not a problem. Yeah, maybe car Bluetooth. Let's use that.
- SPSpeaker
Hi. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hey, Katie.
- SPSpeaker
Hi, Jefferson.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Can you hear me?
- SPSpeaker
Yes, I can hear you properly.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Good.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- SPSpeaker
Really loud, sorry.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Thank you so much.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. [laughs]
- 30:24 – 35:03
Managing client expectations under pressure: lead with what clients ‘don’t want’
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. So let's, um... And I remember there were other, uh, folks who sent in questions about client expectations, and how do you-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... kind of have that buy-in and talk to clients, and I, and I really love this theme because- This is all hovering around this idea of open, honest, transparent communication, that they know where you're coming from and where they are coming from. Can you hear me?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay, good.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay, good. So here, here, here are my thoughts. I find that in conversations with clients, what often will move the needle in getting them to understand some things is telling them what they don't want. Meaning, what you don't want is for me to rush this. What you don't want is for me to turn something around in 14 days. Because if I... A- and let me tell you why. You see how I'm, I am... You're reframing yourself as the authority of the subject matter. And rather than going, "Yes, absolutely, I can get... Yeah, I can do that date. Yes, I can do that date," and then what's happening? That's stressing you out to no end because you want to look good in that moment and say, "Yes, I can deliver it." Listen to me, Katie.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, naturally. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
It will be, it will be, it will be stronger. It will... You will come across even stronger if you say, "I hear that need. I'm also gonna tell you something other people won't in this industry, and you don't want me to do it at, at, at this time period. If... To deliver the product that you're asking for and what this product deserves, and to give you my full effort, what I, what you're going to want is a project that's gonna take four weeks, and let me tell you why. I'll be able to do this better, this better." In the same way, I mean, you, you... An architectural design team, I mean, that's incredible. So what we're doing right now is I am... Let me help you structure this. So we're gonna... I want you to kind of blueprint out, maybe, I don't know, may- I, I don't know what you call it over there, like, your CAD design. H- how, how do you-
- SPSpeaker
Okay
- JFJefferson Fisher
... uh, what, how do you create this, okay? So let's create this together. The first thing is I want you to be reaffirming and hearing what they need, and we're telling them what you can't do and what you can do. Instead of the, "Yeah, but," I'd much rather you use, "Yes, and." "Yes, I hear that. Yes, I think this is a, a great project, and also you're not gonna want me to complete it in a week." And they're gonna go, "What do you mean?" "I'm gonna tell you something most people won't, and that is if I complete it in seven days, this is what's gonna be missing. This is what's going to be rushed." In a project like this, whether it's they, they don't agree with how much money it costs or, uh, the, the timetable or whatever it is, when you tell people what they don't want, that is going to bolster, uh, your, not only your authority of it, but also I'm, I'm telling you this for your ultimate good. Yes, you can go with somebody that's faster. You can go with somebody who's cheaper or whatever it is, and that's fine. But when you identify with clients of these are the people who I work well with or the type of clients that I work with versus I'm just open to everybody, and so it- that's going to... I think that's gonna frame you in a, in a really positive way. When you talk about also setting client expectations, use those words, the expectations. Uh, I know the words like deliverables, but the more specific you can be with that timeframe rather than using the words like soon or next week, the more specific you can be of the day and the time and stick to it, um, the less black, I mean, the less gray, right, of what their expectations are. And usually it just has a matter of communicating. If, if you can communicate that expectation, that's why a lot of the times they have it in... I mean, they scope it out in, in writing, which I'm sure that you do as well. H- how are those things, you know, feeling to you, Katie?
- 35:03 – 38:46
Being the new leader in a tense room: rebuild confidence with a learner mindset
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, I think that's a really good advice, really. [laughs] Just tell them what they don't want. They don't want to have, like, messy drawings and, uh, or something that is inconsistent, and they're, uh... which leads to more mistakes in the future. I think that's, that's something gross, and I can bring it forward. Yeah, and then I also need some, a little bit advice with going, like, the way they try to... Um, they're trying to put burdens on me in the first meetings, like, because, um, before me there is a very long-term vacancy for longer than half a year.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
So pretty much, uh, within this half a year nobody's following up on this project, and the clients say, "Oh, well, there's a new person in." [laughs] Just trying to put her, um, uh, put, put everything on her. And, well, they're really strategic the way they do it, um, uh, trying to burden me in, like, a group meeting in front of other consultants and trying to do sa- things like, um, "Well, uh, yeah, how do you feel, like, um, are you, have you settled in yet? Um, and how do you feel providing this project? Oh, I know that's... I don't want you to have that much burden. I know how it feels." And things like that are just really... [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, it just make me very stressful all the time. Yeah, and it's try- it, it's, um, uh, uh, it, it kind of raised it some kind of bad feeling in a way that they, um, trying... They f- the, the way they structure it, uh, it kind of makes me feel, oh, oh, oh my gosh, I'm new. Oh my gosh, I'm like, uh, I, I feel I'm, I'm so, I'm so small in the project that everybody- Else knows so much better than myself. And, um, it just like kind of crept my confidence in a way. [laughs] But I, I-
- JFJefferson Fisher
But it-
- SPSpeaker
I know I shouldn't be like that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, that's okay to be like that. That's... There's nothing wrong with-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... being like that. That, that means even in Brisbane, Australia, you're normal. I mean, I, I mean, it's, it's, it's-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... we all feel that, that way. And if there's anybody right now who's listening and you go, "I know what that's like, when I feel like I'm the small o- on the totem pole, and everybody knows more than me, and I don't know enough," uh, give her some encouragement, 'cause Katie, I'm gonna give you that encouragement. You-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Thank you so much
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you are exactly where you need to be. There's a reason, there's a reason you're in this position, okay? So what I want you to do is instead of thinking of expecting that you have to be more than what you are, right, and that you in some way have to feel like, "Oh, everybody knows more than me," I want you to flip that to a sense of excitement of that how much there is for you to learn, right? That, and that you will. Because you will. So rather than it being a fear or nervousness, I want you to turn that into an excitement for something that you can... How much growth there is going to be. And the fact that you are in somewhat of a new world, this opens up the door to have a lot of awesome conversations with people, to talk to them and say, "Hey, here's my concern. I'm, I'm curious what you would say or how you would be in this cert... situation." And kinda take on that learner mindset of when you talk to them, say, "I wanna know what it was like in, you know, in your shoes, and I know that, you know, I'm, I'm excited to be the person that's, that's new here," rather than the, "Oh, I mean, I'm... I don't wanna cause a scene," and be real hesitant. I want you, I want you to walk right in that door. You deserve to, you deserve to be there, okay?
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- 38:46 – 40:55
Handling ‘gaslighting’ and shifting client narratives: anchor decisions to the written scope
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, definitely. That's a good advice. And there's also one thing about, uh, gaslighting that just, um, that just happened with developer clients. They li- like, they're, like, changing their minds. [laughs] So maybe previously there may be some conversations, say, uh, something like, uh, they may have, um, some budget concern previously that they have cut off some design items. And lately-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- SPSpeaker
... when I step in, they are trying to flip the story around saying, "Well, I, I, I'm not remembering this way." [laughs] Um, um-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- SPSpeaker
... um, "Oh, well, that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well-
- SPSpeaker
... that is not something we have agreed on," and I have to, I have to take care of those things as well. What would you, what would you say? I-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, from what we wanna do-
- SPSpeaker
Yeah, there's a change.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Well, that's, that all the more highlights, Katie, why we wanna put this in something that's in writing, right? Into a scope, let's say. That's what we call a scope of some sort. Because then you can remove the, "You didn't say that." You now can say, "I follow the scope. The scope says this." Or, you know, uh, "The terms of our organization, the way we handle business is we follow this." It's not a, "You didn't say that. You didn't do this." You're, you're separating out the person from the problem in that moment by creating that third person that's not them, that's gonna get on the defensive, instead of you're saying, "This is either how we handle business, and this is..." or, "what's according to the scope." Cool? So that's what I want you to try. All right? Thank you so much, Katie. I, I really appreciate, uh, at 3:00 a.m. Oh my goodness. Everybody say good night, Katie.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Get some sleep. Get some sleep.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
All right? That's awesome. Thank you.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay, I think we're gonna try, um-
- SPSpeaker
Well, thanks for that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Of course, yeah. All right, we're gonna try Courtney. We're gonna try Courtney, and if not, we're gonna, we're gonna power through it.
- SPSpeaker
Can you hear me?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes, I can hear you.
- SPSpeaker
Uh, oh, sh- all of a sudden now I can't hear, but you can hear me, so I'll listen to this in the, in our, in our master class. I'll go back. So it's weird-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay
- SPSpeaker
... to talk when I know you can't hear, but just if you need me to stop talking, just give me sign language.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You're good.
- 40:55 – 53:20
HOA board conflict with an ‘impenetrable’ dominant member: mindset, questions, and boundaries
- SPSpeaker
So if you need to answer. Okay. So, uh, my, [laughs] my question or my issue is these, this is... I, I'm on a board of a HOA, which in and of itself, don't ever be on the board of an HOA. I'm the vice president. Don't ever do that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
But we're doing a humongous renovation project, and we have nine people.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's funny.
- SPSpeaker
This is, this is a case study in group dynamics-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... at its worst.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
So we have people on there, there's like, uh, little factions, but we have one person that is continuing to be so dominant and the expert in everything. And in fact, one day I said to her, "I bet you could do brain surgery, too, because you are an expert at everything." I totally went against everything you teach-
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
... and I just dropped it. And so, but she's... It's to the point that we're gonna get fired by our construction company, and we're getting in legal problems, and it's a problem for everybody. And I, I even said to her, "What's it worth to you? You're gonna take down the whole property because of your problem?" And she said, "Yes." I was like... So I guess my question is, is when you are in a group dynamic like that and you have somebody to the point where I, I mean, I've turned this over to our attorney and said, "I don't wanna say anything. You're gonna have to talk," because, like, how do you handle somebody... And I've said repeatedly, and in fact in our master, in our other classes at times, I've never in my professional or personal life dealt with a personality type that you abso- Somebody on the board said she's a terrorist. I, I mean, they literally said that. So I, I hate to say that. That's a heavy word.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
But she's a nightmare. And so I just, I guess I'm at the point where, like, what do you do in a group? When you have so many personalities, they don't listen, you can't reason with them, you've tried every way to try and, like, diffuse them. I've used your tactics. It worked for about 10 minutes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- SPSpeaker
So I guess that's my, that's my question, is what do you do? And I'll look forward to hearing the answer at another time. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Got it. Got it, got it. Thank you. Um, thanks, Courtney. I'm gonna ... I know she can't hear me, but we're gonna keep talking as if, if she can. Uh, also, that's hilarious, uh, and very real. If you know somebody like that, I need you to just say, "Courtney, I know exactly what that's like." Man, I've, I have been there. And as, also as an attorney, I have represented an HOA before, and I can attest it is, uh, an experience. An experience for sure. It's, uh, uh ... I feel like it is an experiment of the, the human, [laughs] the human nature. Um, here are my thoughts, Courtney, and I know you'll come back and, and watch this. Courtney's also part of our membership. Um, when you're dealing with somebody who is just impenetrable, impenetrable, what I try to do is ... I can get really upset if I just stay along this path of, "What's wrong with them?" Because I won't know that answer. I'll never find that answer. And if I stop asking what's wrong with them, and then I start asking what happened to them, well, then I can start looking at them in a different way. And so rather than the they're impossible, which is, to me, a, a scarcity type of mindset, that I'm ne- I, I'm already saying I'm never going to reach that person. Rather than the I'm impossible, it's much better to have the where is the disconnect of how I need to know this person better? I take this as, as somebody who's difficult. It reminds me of I had an, a, another opposing attorney once, and he was just as she described, somebody who was, uh, terrible. Really terrible. And I did not like him one bit. And I was at his office one time, and then I look on the shelf, and he has a picture of his wife and his kids. And I think, "Somebody married this guy." [laughs] And I think, "Okay. Well, he can't be difficult all the time. There's got to be something there that I'm, that I'm missing," so to speak. I'm not saying you're missing anything, Courtney. What I'm saying is most likely you're seeing a ... I want you to just call it as it is. You're seeing a snapshot of her life. I want to make sure ... I'm gonna put this over here. You're seeing ... Can you still hear me, Grant? Okay, cool. You're seeing a, a snapshot of her life. It's not a fun snapshot. How do you, how do you ... So how do we handle it better? You already know not to do the stuff of, "Yeah, I bet you could handle brain surgery, too." You already know not to do that, and we know that's not helpful. But it, it happens. I know that it happens. What's a more positive way of looking at this? One, you have actual, let's say, more legalistic routes to remove that member. As an HOA, you have a charter. You ... There are processes by which you can vote to terminate, uh, a person, and I can't remember, maybe this person was the, the homeowner, uh, not a member of the board, but I'm pretty sure she's a member of the board. But even so, you have avenues for that. Obviously, these are people that you don't want in your life. You have to deal with her at the moment. What I need you to do is not see her. I need you to see the 11-year-old version of her and how you want to communicate. So first off, no more ... I know I'm being harsher, more direct with you, Courtney, because I, I know you. No more of the passive slight comments. That's not gonna be helpful. That's, that's only going to further her in, into being against you. Second of all, I want you to un- H- have you done the work ... I'll ask the question. Have you done the work to truly understand what she cares about? Or are you just upset that she disagrees with you? Like, have you done the work to ask questions of how she is thinking about something? Not just why, but her process, using how questions of how ... Maybe it is, how are you expecting us to do this and do this? Or asking what her perspective is on X, Y, and Z. Maybe she's as terrible as, as you say, and maybe that's just a very un- unhappy person. You're in an interesting situation that you kind of have to be around this person, so I need you to ... It's like this idea of ... Uh, what's the saying? Be careful when you argue with a fool, 'cause on- on- onlookers won't know the difference. Right? You have to be very careful of knowing that you're somebody who's gonna be very confident. You're somebody who is going to ... Just like I talked with Sarah Louise. I need you to talk in a very, like, calmer voice, a lower volume with her, and there are some people you just have to give ... You kind of have to let them run in the conversation before they'll talk, um, to, to get that flooding out, because she's, she certainly sounds like defending something, and you're gonna have to find out what that is. of questions, turning more questions, finding the right question. I need you to have a sense of discernment, of pursuing the right question. And how I want to run that through you right now of what I teach, uh, Courtney, and for everybody who's listening, when you're dealing with that difficult person, there are ways of asking questions that is going to open up the conversation. Those are questions that begin with what, how, when, where, but not why. Why can come across very accusatory. And so when you have that chance to talk with them and they're still pushing back, the key is not to give them exactly what they want. Don't throw back that insult. Don't throw back that backhanded compliment. I need you to give that a lot of pause in slowing it down. So when somebody is flooded, what the research shows, when somebody's heartbeat seems to be over a hundred BPM, they're not going to be hearing you. They're only going to be reacting to you. And that's not the person that you need to be talking with. You need to be talking to the, the logical person, the, the person who's, who's back online with you. And that means a conversation that's going to take a lot longer instead of going, "This person's just impossible. We, we would all move forward if not for this person." Most likely, what could also be true? So that's a question that I encourage also with my own kids. But a question I challenge each and every one of you. For every situation that you have, and you feel like you're running into a wall, and you feel like you are eager to characterize somebody as difficult or terrible or horrible, ask the question, what could also be true? Doesn't mean that it is, but it is an experience or experiment in flipping the perspective in a way that's going to realize that there are bigger things at play. Like sometimes when I'm upset about something, especially in a conversation, I don't feel like I'm reaching somebody and I'm frustrated. I just need to go outside and I need to go find where the moon is. You know, I need to go look at it. I need to remember that I'm on a, on a planet. I need to go touch a tree. [laughs] You know what I'm saying? Of just remembering that I'm a human and there are bigger things that are happening. And why in the world would I let somebody who is aggravated on an HOA board ruin the rest of my day? Because sometimes the best thing you can do is choose to have a good day and not let them have some sort of control over you, because you can't control anything about them. So how, how do you deal with it, Courtney? Is one, sweeping off your own porch, making sure that you, you're in a healthy mindset and not getting wrapped up in letting her control your emotions. She's not worth those. Who... And that, for who-- Everybody who's watching, you have that one person in your life, they are not worth your emotions. So why are you giving them to them? All right. Instead, I want you to focus on what's going to make you regulated, [laughs] and breathing, and s- just how we talked about, setting your intention of how you want to show up in that conversation. Second, I want you to, if you don't have, like Courtney has, a way of saying, "I need to move somebody off of the board. There is a process for this," then this is not somebody you need to have in your life. So that means we're going to be adding distance from them. Maybe we don't need to see them as much. You keep facts very n- very neutral and to the point. You don't try and color things. If some kind of slight rudeness or snarkiness, be the bigger person and don't talk about... Don't, don't say that because it's gonna, it's gonna make things worse. And three, if you need to, just like we talked about with Sarah Louise, you can find ways to turn statements into questions. And when you operate on questions, it keeps them talking. It keeps them in a pattern of processing, because some people are external processors, and they just haven't thought... They're feeling it. They're not thinking it yet. And so when you can get past that, that reactive person, you're, you're, you're gonna find somebody who might surprise you. Thank you, Courtney, for that question. Um, also just,
- 53:20 – 1:00:05
Closing framework: write the conversation plan + reset with breath and intention
- JFJefferson Fisher
uh, I, I love it if everybody said thank you, Courtney. Thank you so much for, for sharing that with us. There's some things that I want to make sure, um... We also had, um, Tim on the line, and Tim had a, a step away, and I know what his question was. I, I, I know that we talked some big categories of things, of how do you handle that kind of difficult person? How do you say something more direct and assertive, and how to handle those interruptions, and how do you deal with client expectations? I want you to understand that there's a conversation right now that I know you want to have and you need to have. And what I want you to do, rather than putting it all in your head and thinking, "Jefferson's gonna solve all of this for me," I want you to write it down. I have content that probably addresses most of your stuff, of the questions that are, that are out there. And I know that that stuff will help. So, so I don't want you to think that just because I wasn't able to answer your specific question that y- it-- I can't still be helpful to you. And I hope that this session, hearing others, was incredibly helpful. It was for me. Uh, every time I, I learn something just a, a little bit more. And, you know, what did, what did I learn? I learned that our communication problems are global. [laughs] No matter where you're from on the earth, we're much more alike than we are different. And I want to take this idea of we are, mm- It's a beautiful thing to know that we have a lot of, um, things in common in the way that s- that we communicate and the struggles that we have. I started wrapping this up by going, "Okay, we have these, these big topics. What can we, what can we push?" I want you to be somebody who comes into a conversation as regulated as they can be. When we first started this, I asked you to kind of set your intention for who do you want your words to be, and there are a lot of content that I have writing it down. That's where I was. They are, uh, s- somebody's blowing, has a blower, leaf blower right outside my window, and I can't hear a thing [laughs] aside from that. Writing it down. All right, so what I want you to write down is this. Number one, I want you to write down what's the goal of the conversation? What are you, what are you needing the two of you to do? Two, I want you to walk, write down what do you want to walk away with? In other words, every time you're in a conversation, you're coming away with something. What do you want them to know? Maybe you need to walk away with them understanding a, a decision. Maybe you need to walk away with knowing something that you just needed them to hear. That you don't need them to solve anything, you need them to hear. And three, I want you to ask the question, what's a way that I can better understand them? When you can go into a conversation expecting things, expecting that behavior, ex- expecting certain results of their personality, the less anxiety there is because you're prepared for it. That's, that's what I want, and that's why we do these coaching calls, is so that you can come... You know, the, the, the saying goes you can't a, you can't solve a problem from the same... I think it's like the same perspective that it was created in. Um, I think it's level of consciousness. Yeah, you can't, you can't solve a problem with the same level of consciousness that it was created. So I need you to get whatever communication problem you have on paper. I need you to see it on the table in front of you and start doing exactly what I did with Sir Louise. Whatever situation it is, ask the question, why is it that, what, what is it about this that bothers me? And the second is, what also could be true about their behavior? 'Cause once, when you say somebody's difficult, you don't mean that really they're a difficult person. What you're saying is you find them... It's difficult for you to interact with this human because like the opposing counsel I told you about, he had a family. He had friends. I, I had a very hard time. We had a very hard time communicating. And so when I can ask the question what also could, what also could be true, and what is it about this that is bothering me, almost always come out with a different level of consciousness about the problem, and a different approach and a different, different perspective that I think is great for all of us. All right. Hey, I want to end the same way that we started. You cool with that? I don't know. Let's try it out. Close your eyes for a minute. Another big breath. I feel good. I know that your words, um, are representation of who you are, and you're here because you want to improve your life by improving your conversation and for that, I am extremely grateful to, um, share that with you and to hopefully play a small part. Remember who you are with your words and, um, just remember to tell them who you are without telling them your name, and to, um, use your words to, to help put good in the world. All right, big breath. Let it out. Eyes open. All right. That was awesome. Great reset to your day. Or maybe you're in Brisbane, Australia, and this was just the nighttime routine you needed to fall [laughs] quickly back to sleep. Thanks, guys, for attending. Say goodbye on the comments. Thank y'all. I'm gonna put, I'm gonna say goodbye in some comments. So thanks, guys. Thanks for attending. I'm just gonna be chilling, so you feel free to leave at any time. Bye, everybody. Also, I think you're on YouTube. If you haven't, [laughs] if you don't follow my YouTube, you can subscribe to it. [laughs] I didn't think about that. That's fine. I see everybody. Hey, hey, Janine. Tim, what's up, man? I see you, Greg. It wasn't you, man. Bye, Cindy. Bye, Dawn. Later, guys. Bye, everybody. All right, y'all be good. I'm gonna head out
Episode duration: 1:00:10
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode 3AYSIEMnRTM
