The 3 Second Rule That Ends HIGHLY Emotional Argument | Jefferson Fisher

1. 0:00 – 0:30

   You are not a target: the mindset shift that stops emotional spirals

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not somebody's outlet for all of their frustration and their anger and their insecurities that have been built up all their life. This episode is a little bit different for the podcast. One, it's very early on a Saturday morning, and I wanted to record this so that I had the full day with the kids. So if it looks like my face hasn't woken up yet, it's because it hasn't. It's... We're in the middle of the book tour, which is going fantastic,

2. 0:30 – 2:33

   A reader’s review and why communication skills change everything

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:30

      but I wanted to make time to tell you what is on my heart. You ready? So my book has been out for a little over a week now, and it's been fantastic, amazing. The book tour is going wonderful. And as any new debut author, I, for good or for bad, have been looking at reviews online, 'cause you wanna know, are, are people gonna like the book? That's the whole... You get very nervous. Are, are, are you gonna deliver on the message? And the reviews have been so kind and wonderful. And there was one that hit me yesterday that I randomly saw that I wanted to share with you. It's very short. I know you can listen to it. Just bear with me. I know you can do it. Listen. "You are not a target. I was once told by my husband, 'You are an easy target, and everyone knows it.' Time and again, I walked away defeated, even with my children. Jefferson showed me what I lacked was communication skills. From his social media, I started applying these answers to difficult situations. Let me be clear, this is not a book of his social media quips." That's what I thought it would be. "No, it is learning to understand where people are and to adequately communicate with them. It's teaching to deepen relationships by way of strong communication skills. You are not a weak person for purchasing this book. You are strong and courageous for recognizing there is a better way to bridge a gap, create healthy boundaries that work, to not get sucked down a rabbit hole, to not think you've lost your mind. I highly recommend, and I'm starting my second read-through. Kindle edition is an easy read. Bless you, Jefferson, for exhibiting love for people." I, I was just taken aback by... I was totally blown away by this. I have no clue who this person is. In fact, they didn't even leave their name. It just says, "Verified purchaser." This is my point with this, is I want you to know where to go in your mind when conflict

3. 2:33 – 3:04

   The three rules: control first, then confidence, then connection

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:33

      comes your way. You are not a target. And if you felt like you've been your whole life, this is where it stops. Rule number one in my book, there are three rules. It's rule number one, say it with control. Number two, say it with confidence. Number three, say it to connect. And the whole focus of rule number one is you can't say anything about what I teach you, whether it's my phrases, my quips, my little words, everything that I, I, I can give you. None of it matters

4. 3:04 – 4:06

   Fight-or-flight in everyday moments (not just physical threats)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:04

      if you do not say it with control, if you do not first regulate yourself. So we're gonna talk about, in this episode, what I want you to think about when conflict comes your way. Any time that somebody says something that you weren't expecting, your body naturally, through its biology, reacts. People think that fight or flight is something that has to happen when you come with physical contact. No, that's not true. It happens every day in these little micro moments, even when somebody just flatly disagrees with you. When somebody disagrees with your opinion, or they say something you don't like, or they call you an ugly name, your body goes, "Hey brain, I, I didn't like that." And the brain goes, "Give me a second. Yeah, no, we definitely didn't like that." And it naturally reacts. You have a scowl on your face. You wanna say something back. You get heated. Your neck and jaw get tense. All biological, all normal, all natural. So what do you do with that?

5. 4:06 – 7:09

   The “breath as your first word” and labeling what ‘does not threaten me’

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:06

      Rule number one in my book is you use your breath [inhales] as the first word that you say. And the reason why is because it adds distance between what they say and how you respond, which gives you time to regulate yourself, to think of the quips that I give you and the sentences I give you, and it also mutu- The other benefit is it allows the other person to calm down theirs as well. Gives time for that analytical side to take over. Every day, there are little things that tell your body, "I am threatened." Somebody cuts in front of you in traffic. Somebody merges. Somebody's riding on your bumper. Your body goes, "I am threatened." That's where road rage comes from. "I feel threatened in this environment." When you're talking with your kids, when somebody, um, says something to you that, that... They disagree with your opinion. They dismiss your idea. You don't like that. Your body's saying, "Hey, that feels threatening to me." I want you to do something for me right now. Now, if you're driving, don't worry about it. If you're walking on the treadmill, don't worry about it. You can do it later, or do it in your head with me right now. I want you to think of behavior that somebody does that really, really upsets you, and we're gonna put a label on it. For example, maybe it's disrespect, dismissive, condescending, belittling, rude. Whatever it is, make it yours. What is a behavior that somebody exhibits that really just, just feels like it sets you off, that just, you just explode when somebody does this to you? You got it? You find that word. Now, write it down, and right next to it, I want you to write, "Does not threaten me." Does not threaten me. So the sentence would be, "Dismissiveness does not threaten me Rude comments, back talk, insults do not threaten me. This is the mindset I want you to have when this kind of stuff comes up in your life. Why? Because it is telling your body of, "Hey, when somebody raises their voice, that doesn't threaten me. When somebody calls me that, the way I'm reacting and telling my body is, 'Hey, this does not threaten me.'" That's what you're doing with your breath in that moment. That's why we give it time to tell your body, "What is happening in front of me is not a threat." Right? It's this idea that, um, you know, you have... You've seen the big animals, uh, whether it's a lion or an elephant or something, they have, like some... maybe a little dog or something. It... They, they just go, "What is this?" It's like a, a little animal coming up to a big animal. Th- they're not threatened in any way. That's the whole mindset here of, "Hey, what you're doing is... This isn't threatening to me. I'm seeing right through it." Cool? I'm gonna tell you a quick story right now that, um, I haven't... I don't think I've ever shared. This

6. 7:09 – 11:15

   Airport TSA story: responding to condescension with a question of intent

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:09

      was, oh, maybe three weeks ago or so, and where was I? I might've... I, I think it was in S- San Diego Airport. I was in the San Diego Airport. It may have been San Diego. Everything's bl- blurring, blending together at this moment, and it's early. Give me a break. Is I got through security at TSA and went, and I was looking for my gate. Looking for my gate, and I kept following the signs, and then all of a sudden, I was outside of it, outside of the, the security. The gate, the terminal... It wasn't the terminal. The gate was actually in a separate terminal, and I had just walked myself all the way through. I had already gone through security. I had already gone through all the, the check and the getting your stuff out and ready and giving your ID. I had... I started walking out, and I passed this exit where it goes, you know, the point of no return, where it has a red line there at the airport. And I walk out of it, and all of a sudden, this is me by myself, and I look, and I go... I say this out loud. I go, "Oh, my gosh. I gotta do this all over again." Because I have to know... I'm going further down where a separate terminal is. And I say, "Oh, my gosh. I s- I gotta do this all over again." And a voice that I had no clue where it was coming from, female voice goes, "That's why you should read the signs, sir." And I'm trying to find who that is, and I turn and look, and as I'm looking, she goes, "You have no one to blame but yourself, sir. That's why we have signs." I don't know if you're feeling this just hearing it to me. Just the way the tone came across was so condescending and unexpected and unnecessary. You ever had that? "That's why we have signs, sir. You have no one to blame but yourself." And I remember being just taken aback. Uh, "Who, who, who are you?" And it was a TSA agent. Now, if you're a TSA agent, I know not everybody is rough and can be terrible, and I... Hey, I'm an attorney, for crying out loud. Not all attorneys are bad. There are some TSA agents that are wonderful. There are some people that are bad. We all have bad apples in every profession. This one right here, this lady, she was a middle-aged lady, uh, just looked so smug when... soon as she said that. And this is what... My, my body wanted to come back with some really good zingers in that moment. I wanted to say a few things to her because it was really rude. It was condescend- it was unnecessary. And this is what I did. Of course, I have to practice what I preach, right? I gave it... I looked at her for, like, five seconds trying to figure out, "Is this... Did she say that?" And I just give it time, and now she's sitting back and blinking and looking at me. Her smile is gone. And this is what I asked her. I said, "How do you feel when you say that kind of thing to someone? Is it... Does it give you joy?" That's what I said, like, verbatim. And immediately, she got red, like, "Um, uh," and just got red in the face and apologized right there. I didn't have to prompt anything. She goes, "I, I'm, I'm sor- I'm sorry, sir. You're, you're right. I... That wasn't kind. You're, you're right, sir. I'm s- I'm sorry. Yes. You, you, you can find the terminal if you go straight down." And now she was in helping mode. Now she was in helping mode. "You can go right here, and this is where it's gonna be." I would say, "Oh. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. All right. Well, you have a wonderful day." You are not a target. You are not somebody's punching bag. You are not the outlet for somebody to release all of their frustrations

7. 11:15 – 14:21

   Don’t hand out a ‘remote control’ to your emotions: use reflective questions

   1. JFJefferson Fisher11:15

      and their angers and their smugness on you. These tools work. This is why I talk about, uh, them. That's why I feel so passionate about sharing these. You had the choice right in that moment when somebody says something ugly, when they're the TSA agent in your life, [laughs] how are you gonna react? What are you gonna say to that person? Are, are you going to allow them to just press your remote control and manipulate all your emotions? I had a choice. You have a choice. Is that gonna ruin your day? "I just can't believe you'd say that. Excuse me? Is that what... Excuse me, are you talking to me?" Uh, uh, you see how it easily could go the other way when you give in to that fight or flight, when you don't use your breath, when you don't regulate yourself. If you do not say things with control, it doesn't matter what kind of tip I can give you. It's not gonna work. It ain't gonna work. You have to say it with control. You are not a target. I hope that this is a good reminder for you wherever you are. I can give you lots of tools and tips on what to say, and we have different podcast episodes on that, and I'm gonna continue to give you podcast episodes on this. And I want to make sure that you know and you hear, and really the message is very simple for today. You are not a target. When that happens, I want you to go to your breath, regulate yourself, and then use the questions that I've taught you. These are questions like, "Did you mean? Did you mean for that to be rude? Did you mean to insult me? Did you mean for that to embarrass me?" Or you give it time, and then you ask somebody a question of intent. "How did you expect me to react to that?" I could have said that to her. "How did you want me to respond to that? How does it make you feel?" Imagine being the person who would say that to someone. These, these ways of responding to rude behavior, that is actually not a response. It's a question. You're not giving them matters of substance. I'm not saying, "Let me s- you, you spit in my eye, let me spit back in yours." No. It is a reflection of their own behavior and character. And nine times out of 10, the other person sees that because they, because you're giving them time to, are seeing... It's like, uh, the, the blood, the, the red. Uh, it's not blood. The red comes out of their system. You know when somebody's seeing red? You have to give them time for that to g- go away. Come back to normal. Come back. I know that's not who you are. People are not... People are far better than we give them a chance to be. Why? Because we know that in ourselves. So when you have the patience and the discipline to get to that, you're going to have a better communication and a better relationship and a better life because of that. Cool? All right. You are not a target. Hope you have a wonderful day.

8. 14:21 – 15:59

   Coaching segment begins: learning to argue less by starting with control

   1. SPSpeaker14:21

      Where do we have to start to understand this? Like, I wanna be a much better conversationalist, and I wanna be a much more effective communicator. I wanna argue less, I wanna talk more.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher14:29

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker14:29

      I wanna be heard more. This is probably r- reflective of most people listening right now. So if, if, if I was a, a student of yours coming in to be trained by you, where is the first place you would start with me?

   4. JFJefferson Fisher14:42

      Number one.

   5. SPSpeaker14:42

      Yeah.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher14:43

      You say it with control.

   7. SPSpeaker14:45

      Okay, what do you mean by that?

   8. JFJefferson Fisher14:46

      Yeah, so, uh, when you're in an argument with somebody, what happens automatically is your fight or flight starts to take over, even in a little argument. Even in the very m- especially even in the small ones. If I disagree with your opinion, your fight or flight kicks in because your body's saying, "Hey, I'm being undermined." Your mind is telling you, "Hey, I didn't like that. What he's saying is different from what I'm saying. You know what? Uh, we're gonna think of some other things that's going to put that down." Immediately what I wanna do is say something that is going to fight. In other words, I'm gonna hurt you. I wanna say something that's gonna cut you. I wanna say something that is hurtful. Or we run from it. You ever had somebody been on the phone and go, "You know, I, I'm over this," and they hang up?

   9. SPSpeaker15:27

      Yeah.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher15:27

       Or they go, "Uh, the, I'm outta here. You know what? Forget this," and they go and slam the door. That's their flight. That's their, their leaving. It's, "I feel threatened in this current moment by this conflict, by this differing view, so I need to get out of it." When you decide to say it with control, you make sure that that doesn't happen. And it all begins with your breath. All right? That's the key. So what, what I teach every one of my clients is let your breath be the first word that you say. So we'll run through it right now.

   11. SPSpeaker15:58

       Okay.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher15:59

       If that's cool.

   13. SPSpeaker15:59

       Yeah.

9. 15:59 – 23:14

   The conversational breath: physiological sigh + making pauses work for you

   1. JFJefferson Fisher15:59

      All right. So let's do it, uh, an exaggerated one, and what this is called, and it takes advantage of, is a physiological sigh. So what we're gonna do is, um, two seconds in through the nose. [inhales] One more at the top. [inhales] And then go heh.

   2. SPSpeaker16:16

      Heh.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher16:17

      Yeah. Okay. Now, how do you feel after you do that?

   4. SPSpeaker16:18

      Very relaxed.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher16:19

      Yeah. All right, cool. So what we're gonna do is get a shortcut to that exact result. This time, we're gonna do it, same thing, but don't make the, the noise. [inhales] One more at the top. [exhales] Through the mouth again. Now, instead of the mouth, only through the nose. Ready? [inhales, exhales] Now, that was a l- now we did that almost a little... That was very intentional, so let's do it again, but, like, give it a haircut, as if, like, you don't even w- um, you're not even gonna get me to notice. Ready? [inhales, exhales] That right there.

   6. SPSpeaker16:55

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher16:56

      Now, that is your go-to. Whenever somebody is telling you something that you disagree with, that is your go-to before you even say your first word. Because it is going to make sure that that fight or flight never kicks in. It keeps that analytical side, that logical side, in it the whole time. Instead of going, "Oh, but wait, they can't yell at me like that. No, no, that's, that's a dumb idea. Can you believe that you said..." Instead of that, that's your fight or flight. You never even gave yourself a chance to breathe. When you breathe and use that, what I call a conversational breath, now you, it allows you to go, "Huh, I wonder where this is coming from. I wonder why they said it like that." Now, it allows you to kinda stay detached from that current moment because you're injecting your breath into it. When you allow yourself to breathe, then it's gonna keep you much calmer. And so any time I have a client that maybe is getting a question from an attorney that would be triggering to them or upsetting to them, it's always the training of use your breath while they're asking the question and start getting really curious as to why they're asking that. What's the point that they're trying to prove? Don't look at the surface of the question. Look at the intent behind it. Where are they trying to take you? Whenever I can teach them that, it's, it's a very powerful result.

   8. SPSpeaker18:09

      And to do that, I have to kind of be comfortable with the fact that there will be a pause between my response and That question

   9. JFJefferson Fisher18:17

      Yeah

   10. SPSpeaker18:17

       Which is quite uncomfortable for a lot of people

   11. JFJefferson Fisher18:19

       Uh, you'd think, but the more they do it, the better it becomes. In fact, I like it because it tells you that I actually listened. So let's say, for example, ask me, ask me about my... Just say, "How was your day, Jefferson?"

   12. SPSpeaker18:30

       How was your day, Jefferson?

   13. JFJefferson Fisher18:30

       It was good. It was good. My day was great. Um, you know, it was, it was a day. Now ask me again.

   14. SPSpeaker18:35

       How was your day, Jefferson?

   15. JFJefferson Fisher18:39

       It was good. It was a good day. I liked it. You see how one says, "I didn't even think about what you asked me"?

   16. SPSpeaker18:45

       Yeah.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher18:45

       The other says, "No, I actually thought about the question. I considered it-

   18. SPSpeaker18:50

       Yeah

   19. JFJefferson Fisher18:50

       ... and then I chose my answer." And so you can do that even when, especially for leaders, they go into a very busy work environment where there are problems right on the floor. They have to address this right at that current moment. The bad leaders will get very hectic and rise to that same level of energy. The great leaders will capture the calm energy. They inject that breath and go, [inhales] "Okay, what's next?" Have you ever... Uh, my grandfather, for example, I can ask him, um... One time I was like, "Hey, do you know where your, your, um, your screwdriver is?" And he goes, [inhales] "Yeah." I mean, like, you know what I mean? [laughs]

   20. SPSpeaker19:34

       [laughs]

   21. JFJefferson Fisher19:35

       Like, but, but, I mean, it just... But there's something about it where these kind of people in your life that you're looking and drawn to the calm energy, the anchors in your relationship and your conversations, the people that just to be near them calms you down. Just to be around them, you go, "Okay, great. Steven's here. I, I feel better. Good. Okay, he's here. All right, things are gonna go all right." Because they're looking for the person who's going to be the lead, not just in the conversation, but the frequency of the room. It's a calm energy that you have to capture.

   22. SPSpeaker20:07

       When you took that pause when I asked you how your day had been, two interesting observations I had. The first is whatever you were about to say next, I trusted more-

   23. JFJefferson Fisher20:15

       Yeah

   24. SPSpeaker20:15

       ... because you'd had some time to think-

   25. JFJefferson Fisher20:17

       Exactly

   26. SPSpeaker20:17

       ... and you weren't just spewing out your, like, automatic response. So I thought, "Oh, gosh, what's he gonna say here?" And I... There was this element of, like, he's really thinking. He's like, he really cares about-

   27. JFJefferson Fisher20:25

       Yes

   28. SPSpeaker20:25

       ... giving me the honest, the honest answer. And the second one is I was just so much more intrigued.

   29. JFJefferson Fisher20:29

       Right.

   30. SPSpeaker20:30

       Because I could see you thinking, so I thought, "This is gonna be an interesting response."
10. 23:14 – 27:18

    Control also means slowing down: pace, tone, and the words that project authority

    1. JFJefferson Fisher23:14

       I mean, and just left it at that. I mean, and he just couldn't really do anything with it. But the bigger thing was it gave her the confidence of saying, "No, I listened. I see where you're going with this. I'm not gonna go there." And so it, it helps you navigate and empower you really with the tools of making sure you're always saying it with control. Another part of saying with control is slowing your words down. When people talk really fast, without thinking about it, it gets us kind of anxious. When somebody is talking really, really fast, you're, "Okay, I'm trying to understand you." It's harder, uh, let's say... I mean, I like hip-hop. I like rap music. If you listen to somebody who's rapping really, really fast and you can't understand a word they're saying, you're kind of like, "Oh, okay, I've... I'm, I'm lost in this song. I like the beat. That's great, but I can't understand what you're saying." People that slow their words down shows a lot more effectiveness when you communicate. So let's illustrate this. I want you to say quickly with some almost some exasperation, um- I already told you I'm not gonna do that. Say that real quick

    2. SPSpeaker24:22

       I already told you I'm not gonna do that

    3. JFJefferson Fisher24:23

       Say it louder

    4. SPSpeaker24:24

       I already told you I'm not gonna do that

    5. JFJefferson Fisher24:25

       Perfect. Now what you to do is slow it down, slow it way down, each word. You don't have to have the disdain with it.

    6. SPSpeaker24:34

       Mm

    7. JFJefferson Fisher24:34

       Just slow it down and say it again

    8. SPSpeaker24:37

       I already told you I'm not gonna do that

    9. JFJefferson Fisher24:40

       Say it even slower

    10. SPSpeaker24:42

        I already told you I'm not going to do that

    11. JFJefferson Fisher24:46

        Oh, man. That's awesome. [laughs]

    12. SPSpeaker24:48

        [laughs]

    13. JFJefferson Fisher24:48

        Yeah. So you see how without the emotion-

    14. SPSpeaker24:50

        Yeah

    15. JFJefferson Fisher24:51

        ... you sounded even more in control?

    16. SPSpeaker24:53

        Yeah

    17. JFJefferson Fisher24:53

        Somebody who goes, "I already told you I'm not gonna do that," says I have maybe 5% control. But if I slow it down, same thing, and I say, "I already told you I'm not going to do that," now I sound like I have 100% control. This is the person you go, "Whoa, okay. They're not moving off their spot. They're not somebody who's... I can't press their buttons and control their emotions that way."

    18. SPSpeaker25:16

        What type of person struggles with this?

    19. JFJefferson Fisher25:19

        Somebody who, um, would be not aware of their emotions, not aware of their triggers, somebody who just... Let's put it as a lack of awareness of certain things

    20. SPSpeaker25:34

        Does one's self-esteem and one's insecurities play a role i- in this?

    21. JFJefferson Fisher25:41

        Yeah. Uh, I mean, they play a role with anything. My counter to, to that is w- we can overcome it. It's, it's not your self-esteem that's talking. It's the words. The words do it for you. We have people who have a hard time saying what they want. It's the words that they need to say. So when somebody's having a hard time with self-esteem, what I find is all I need to do is get them to start beginning their sentences with certain words, and it's always a different outcome. They just don't know how to begin it. So it's very curious on how, like, somebody who... Rarely does people w- with self-esteem issues say, "I need," for example. They typically don't like to say that 'cause it feels too, uh, uh, forward. Somebody who has self-esteem issues will typically begin with, "So, you know, maybe like, uh... You know, I was thinking this," and you can, uh, you can totally tell me if I'm wrong, but, uh, that's the kind of thing that you typically hear. They're just using the wrong words to begin their sentences. You have to find words that push the progress of the sentence. For example, if someone says "like" all the time. "I mean, I... When you said that, like, it, it just really upset me."

    22. SPSpeaker26:52

        Mm-hmm

    23. JFJefferson Fisher26:54

        That doesn't push the sentence forward. Now, if you trade out the word like for the word because, well, I mean, that just hurt. Be- because when you said that, that, that hurt me. I'm pushing the sentence forward rather than letting it drag, and so it's just these little bitty tweaks that one or two words make a big, big difference

    24. SPSpeaker27:12

        So that was the first point. You said control.

    25. JFJefferson Fisher27:14

        Yeah, control. Say it with control

    26. SPSpeaker27:15

        Okay. Is there a second point?

11. 27:18 – 35:04

    Rule 2—Confidence: assertiveness creates confidence (not the other way around)

    1. JFJefferson Fisher27:18

       Number two, say it with confidence

    2. SPSpeaker27:21

       Confidence. Okay. How do I say something with confidence?

    3. JFJefferson Fisher27:24

       You have to first understand what it is, and I don't mean that in, like, a, a woo-woo, like, setting. A, a lot of people come to me and go, "How do I have the confidence to say this? I'm getting up the courage or confidence to say that." It's the wrong way to look at it. Confidence is not what you have before. Confidence is the outcome, and you get to that by saying things that are assertive. What I teach is confidence is as assertive does. So when you learn how to use your assertive voice, y- the result is feeling confident. Like, if I were to tell you right now, "Steven, I need you to feel sad," you have a hard time feeling sad. If I said, "I need you to be afraid right now," you'd be like, "I, I don't... I mean, what am... What is there to be afraid of?" Like, you just can't conjure that feeling. Now, if I, for whatever reason, just gave you a elbow to the chest, I mean, you'd be, like, upset, right? You don't have to f- you don't have to wonder what it's like to feel mad. You're gonna feel it. It's the same with confidence. You can't just conjure up the feeling of, of confidence. You only get it by doing assertive things. And the people that are most confident I find are the people that have done the thing already, so they have already said the assertive thing. They've already used their voice because the more assertive they are, the more confident they're going to feel. That's the way it works. So you do it. You find confidence by using your assertive voice

    4. SPSpeaker28:48

       And what is my assertive voice? And how is sort of an assertive voice different to, like, disrespecting someone? Um, I've got this graph, I think it's from, taken from your book-

    5. JFJefferson Fisher28:59

       Okay

    6. SPSpeaker29:00

       ... which shows the sort of middle ground of-

    7. JFJefferson Fisher29:03

       Yeah

    8. SPSpeaker29:04

       I'll put it on the screen for anyone that can't see, but respecting others sort of versus respecting yourself, and in the middle there you have your assertive voice.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher29:11

       Right

    10. SPSpeaker29:12

        What is my assertive voice?

    11. JFJefferson Fisher29:13

        It's a balance. It's a balance between sounding almost passive and sounding aggressive. Assertive says, "I'm willing to be direct with you even in the face of it not going well, but I'm a- at least gonna give you my truth," or, "I'm going to say what I need to say without sounding rude." Whenever you are direct with someone, it's also very kind to someone. If I were to tell you and prep the sentence with, "Steven, I'm gonna tell you this because I know you can handle it," that's different than me going, "Hey, look, this is, you know, probably gonna upset you and, and I don't mean to upset you, but you just let me know." Like, that is a lot, whole lot harder. The assertive voice says, "I'm gonna be very direct. At the same time, I'm going to say it with a sense of this is... doesn't have to do with me trying to push my way. I'm just letting you know where I stand." Uh, you don't, you don't have to always play nice. That's not what I'm saying. There are times when somebody says something that's, that's terrible to you. Y- you don't have to push back. You just can't be pushed over. And so when you learn your assertive voice, that's where you find ways to speak your truth More easily and more readily. So one of the first words or lessons of say it, uh, in using your assertive voice is that every word matters. The number one culprit of that is the word just. We use the word just a lot. It's probably one of my, my weaknesses that I have, is using the word just. In common conversation, no problem. It's... Nobody cares. But when it comes to having to push a boundary, say something at work, be a little bit more on your toes, just has a way of making you sound hesitant. The most common way we hear that is if somebody goes, maybe write an email or a text, "Hey, just wanted to check in with you. Hey, uh, do you have five seconds? Just wanted to, to touch base with you." It sounds like you're hesitant, as if like, "I don't really wanna bother you." If you remove the word just, now you're leaning into it. So instead of, "I just wanna check in," "I wanted to check in with you." That's a lot more forward, a lot more forward progress rather than us- using the word just. But every little word matters. You've had those texts where somebody gives you, like, a whole paragraph. I, I don't, I don't know what... how to respond to this. What I teach is that the longer your answer, the more questions you're gonna get, the longer that conversation's gonna go, the longer the argument's going to go. So you have to find ways to say more with less.

    12. SPSpeaker31:42

        You have to find ways to say more with less. So does the amount that I speak have consequence?

    13. JFJefferson Fisher31:48

        Yes. There is this... It's this idea of the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds like a lie. Like, the more you have to say to explain something to me, the more I start to assume you don't know what you're talking about. And we have this way of, what they... I guess they call it word vomit, where you just, you talk a whole lot. People get lost in your sentences. And also, when you choose to speak makes a very big difference. Like, have you ever been in one of those meetings and there's always this one person that has to throw in their two cents? They always have to throw out their idea or be the devil's advocate or have something to say at every single issue that gets brought up. Most of the time, those are the people that are honestly the least connected to what's actually happening, or at least part of the conversation, because they want you to know how smart they are or how many people they know. These are the same people that name-drop, like, every other sentence. Uh, the person that is like, you know, "Oh, I, I was talking to Steven the other day. Oh, you know Steven, right? Oh, yeah, great guy." Uh, you know, and they start to name-drop just so you know how many people that they know. Insecurities are, are very loud. Confidence, on the other hand, is very quiet. Insecure people have the f- the need to say everything so that I sound more believable, so you'll know how much I know and how smart I am. Confident people have the urge to say nothing, because they have nothing, nothing to prove. Like, if you disagree with me on something that I know to be true, I, I wouldn't be nearly as affected. Let's say, uh, like, we both have on a black shirt. If, if you were like, uh, "Jefferson, this is a dumb purple shirt you have on." I'd be like, "Oh, okay." Like, I don't need to convince you what I already know the color of my shirt is. It's like, if you know that about yourself, what you have internally inside, you don't have the need, the insecurity to prove it to everybody else that they're wrong. The confidence is very quiet. The people that are typically the most looked to are the people that say the least. They listen a whole lot more.

    14. SPSpeaker33:56

        Do people capitalize on, on that? So if, if you're triggered by me saying that you have a purple shirt on-

    15. JFJefferson Fisher34:02

        Mm-hmm

    16. SPSpeaker34:02

        ... have I got the power now? Because I can, like, play you like a fiddle if that's... You're so easily triggered by something that's so obviously, like, provocation. Surely I, like, I have the power over you now, right?

    17. JFJefferson Fisher34:15

        No. I mean, I mean, the, the people that are not emotionally intelligent, the people that don't have the emotional awareness, yeah, you can, you can press their buttons and play them like a fiddle.

    18. SPSpeaker34:23

        Hmm.

    19. JFJefferson Fisher34:23

        And because what they've done is they've... That, that would be like me giving you the remote. Say, "Here. Here's the remote to my emotions. Go ahead. Play them. Press that button. Oh, yeah. Oh, you made me angry. How, how dare you?"

    20. SPSpeaker34:32

        Hmm.

    21. JFJefferson Fisher34:32

        Instead of handing out remote controls, you get in the habit of giving out manuals. And so if you want to yell at me and press my button, and me to say, "You can't yell at me like that," versus me handing you a manual and go, "Hey, I heard you yell at me. If you don't mind, go to page 72. You can look on paragraph three. I don't respond to that volume." Like, you're giving a whole different mind shift of this is what I tolerate and this is what I don't tolerate.

12. 35:04 – 40:07

    People-pleasing, over-apologizing, and why gratitude works better than ‘sorry’

    1. SPSpeaker35:04

       Do you have a lot of, um, people pleasers coming to you? You know-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher35:07

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker35:07

       Yeah.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher35:08

       Yeah. People pleasing is very hard. It... I mean, and the thing is you can, you can please people. Just make sure that you're one of them, and that's the harder part, is I'm always... People say, "I'm always saying yes to things. I don't know how to say no to things. I don't know where to go with this." That's a whole lot harder. Using your assertive voice is... helps with that in a lot of ways, and it is about trying to make sure that when you people please with people, you have to find a way to set a boundary that is going to protect yourself, and that's, that's easier said than done.

    5. SPSpeaker35:46

       It's, it's interesting. Being, um... I started my first business when I was... my first proper business when I was about 18 years old. And when you're 18 years old and you're dealing with people that are, like, double your age, and you're different because your skin color's a little bit different, you have no experience, you... I reflect... I was talking to the guy that was cutting my hair yesterday, 'cause he's a, a young Black man starting in business, and you're aware that every conversation you're having to some degree is a test.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher36:14

       Yeah.

    7. SPSpeaker36:14

       It's like a test of how much you value yourself, how much you believe in yourself, and how much you believe in what you're building and what you're saying. Like, it's an interesting way to think of life that, like, every conversation is actually a test.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher36:26

       Hmm.

    9. SPSpeaker36:27

       A test of- ... your conviction. And I was just, I was talking to my barber about how I've changed over time and how business has made me become more direct and more assertive than I was when I was 18 years old. Because, like, I wouldn't have survived in some of the rooms that I'm in with, like, very eccentric billionaires who have done this-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher36:45

        [laughs]

    11. SPSpeaker36:45

        ... 40 years before me if, if I didn't have that assertive voice-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher36:50

        Mm

    13. SPSpeaker36:50

        ... if I wasn't able to look them in the eye and say with calmness and a slower pace what I believe to be true. Um, it's so interesting, like, just thinking about how so much of our life is about developing this ability to assert what we believe without the just or the-

    14. JFJefferson Fisher37:05

        Yes

    15. SPSpeaker37:05

        ... caveats or the-

    16. JFJefferson Fisher37:07

        Exactly

    17. SPSpeaker37:07

        ... excuse.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher37:07

        Yeah. Where they also go into trouble is when people... What I see a lot are people that over-apologize. I, I find that that is big with people pleasers, where they say, "I'm sorry" in every single sentence. "Hey, so sorry, I'm just now getting back to you." "Sorry, just now seeing this." "Oh, I can't come. So sorry." Like, they start to apologize for things that are not a mistake. They apologize for things that, that are not errors.

    19. SPSpeaker37:31

        Mm.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher37:31

        And when you start to over-apologize with every little thing, without you knowing it, it's slowly drip by drip corroding your sense of self-esteem, your sense of self-worth. I-I it's, you- your self-worth is not tied to how little of an inconvenience you can make yourself by always saying, "Hey, so sorry, I, I, I don't mean to bother you. I just have a quick question." Instead of the over-apologies, what I teach is use words of gratitude. So instead of the, um, "So, so sorry I'm late," even though you were like one minute late, "Thank you for waiting on me."

    21. SPSpeaker38:07

        Mm.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher38:07

        Or thank you giving... Uh, let's say it's an email. "Thank you for giving me the, the time to think on this. Thank you for giving me the time to reply."

    23. SPSpeaker38:15

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher38:15

        "Thank you for giving me the patience." And you know what the other person's gonna think? "I am patient. Why, yes I am. You're so welcome."

    25. SPSpeaker38:20

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher38:21

        I mean, you're, you're using words of gratitude to press that, and that's a whole lot easier than the problem of people pleasers, and that's just over-apologizing to just about everything. Or they undercut their words. Or they say like, uh, "I hate to bother you, but..." And then they have to say what they need to say.

    27. SPSpeaker38:39

        In this regard, what do the most successful people in the world, the leaders, the prime ministers, the presidents, the CEOs, have in common as it relates to the stuff we're talking about right now? So you, you know what I'm saying? So like-

    28. JFJefferson Fisher38:53

        Yeah

    29. SPSpeaker38:53

        ... are they, are they assertive? Are they people pleasers? Like, what do they have in common here?

    30. JFJefferson Fisher38:59

        What I find that, people are people, so it's gonna... Most often it's just gonna come down to, to their personality. But overall, your most effective leaders find ways of taking a lot of ideas and words and saying them very concisely. The bigger leaders, they don't write long emails.
13. 40:07 – 48:07

    Rule 3—Connect: conversational frames + don’t try to ‘win’ arguments

    1. SPSpeaker40:07

       What's number three then? So you've given me two.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher40:10

       Yeah. We say, say it with, uh, say it with control, say it with confidence, and three is say it to connect. These are how do you have, how do you have these difficult conversations with somebody? How do you find ways to say what you need to say in one of the most difficult times? That gives a lot of people anxiety if they know they have to have a difficult conversation, even in weeks ahead, especially the day ahead. They're just dreading it.

    3. SPSpeaker40:34

       Mm-hmm. So how do I say something to connect?

    4. JFJefferson Fisher40:37

       Yeah. What you wanna do is get really curious about the other person, but not just so much that there is a framework that I'm, I can even give you. So we can go a step further. There is a frame, and I call them conversational frames. When to connect with somebody, it is a fancy word. I think connection can be overused at times. Just means I say something that you can understand and you acknowledge me. That's all we're looking for. Doesn't mean that everything's happy. Doesn't mean that it's a Hallmark card. Like, I can connect with you and still be upset at you. My dad would, used to tell me if I came, if I disagree with something, he'd say, he would go, "You don't have to like it. You just need to understand it."

    5. SPSpeaker41:18

       [laughs]

    6. JFJefferson Fisher41:18

       I mean, that, that right there was a great example of allowing me to connect with him and giving me the, the space to disagree. If you were to begin your sentence with, "I'm not asking to change your mind," or, "I don't need to change your mind," uh, it's almost like a relief before you say the rest of what you need to say. Now you're not in that combative fight or flight of do I have to defend myself at any time. So connection is this way of setting up conversations that is going to get you more of what you want. We talked about the frame. Here's how to do it, and this is the most effective tool that you can use for a difficult conversation. Number one, you're gonna begin with telling them what you want to talk about. Number two, you tell them, and this is the most important, how you want to end the conversation, what you wanna walk away from. And three, you get their buy-in into that conversational frame. This is what it sounds like. Let's say this is, I need to come to you and talk about something serious. So first I'm gonna say what we need to talk about. "Steven, I'd like to talk with you about some comments you made at last Thursday's meeting." Two, I'm gonna tell him how I wanna walk away. It sounds like, "And I wanna walk away from that conversation with the understanding that's not gonna happen again." Three, I'm gonna get their buy-in. I'm gonna say, "That sound good?" You're gonna say, "Yeah." Now you know exactly where we're going. You know exactly what we're gonna talk about. You know when that conversation's going to end and how it's going to end, and now I have your buy-in, and it's like almost an invisible contract when somebody goes, "Yeah, that's good. We can talk about that." They don't wanna leave it. They don't wanna break their word, so they, they know that they're gonna be stuck in it.

    7. SPSpeaker42:49

       Mm-hmm. And then is there anything I need to be aware of when I have that difficult conversation with them so that I don't... so that I'm successful in getting to that outcome?

    8. JFJefferson Fisher43:00

       N-number one would be set the goal of knowing where it's going to end. That, that is the hardest, probably the biggest downfall of the difficult conversation. People expect them to go how they had it in their head. They want the conversation to happen just like they had it while they were brushing their teeth that morning or driving on the way into work. They're like, "Okay, I'm gonna say this, and then they're gonna say this," and you expect everything to go just how you had it in your head. But as soon as they say that one thing you weren't expecting, all of a sudden they disagree with you, and you go, "Wait, that's not how it's supposed to be. They were s- they were supposed to say this. They were supposed to say I'm right. They were supposed to say they're wrong. I mean, it, uh, how's this gonna go?" And then it begins to falter like that.

    9. SPSpeaker43:36

       'Cause when we go into those sort of difficult conversations, whether it's with a colleague or our spouse or whoever it might be, much of the objective, I think, for some of us is to, is to win the conversation-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher43:46

        Yeah

    11. SPSpeaker43:46

        ... in whatever definition of winning one might have. Is endeavoring to win a conversation a good idea?

    12. JFJefferson Fisher43:53

        I teach that you never want to win an argument, and this is why. When you look to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship. Like if you set out to only prove people wrong, yeah, you might win the point, but you will lose the person. You know, being right doesn't keep you company. Let's put it that way. When I look at it as arguments, there's only something to win. All I've won is really the first step to, to apologize typically when you set out to win it because most arguments aren't really won. It's just they're won by forfeit. Somebody goes, "I, I'm over this," or you said it, something that was really hurtful that makes them say, "I, I don't wanna... Uh, we're done. I don't wanna talk about this." An argument eventually burns out. That's what happens. But when you set out to win, you will lose the relationship. Like if you, you and I are in an argument and I say something that's really hurtful and then you leave, you hang up the phone, what have I won?

    13. SPSpeaker44:52

        Mm.

    14. JFJefferson Fisher44:53

        Yeah, I mean, what... I, I've, I've won awkward silence now when we pass each other in the hall. I've, I've won that awkward feeling now I have to pick up the phone and apologize. I still have to find a way to probably work with you or live with you. W-what have you proven? When has ever you go onto social media and disparaged somebody's political belief ever changed their mind, ever?

    15. SPSpeaker45:18

        There's been so many arguments that I've had with, like, my girlfriend where I have, quote unquote, "won," and I felt like shit.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher45:24

        Yeah. You will.

    17. SPSpeaker45:25

        'Cause I... 'Cause she, like, she might come to me and say, "Do you know what? I understand your point and I'm, I'm sorry," and there's part of me that just feels like shit and I, I, it's, it's because I thought that's the outcome I was looking for. But actually, the outcome I was look-looking for was resolution. And I actually lo-love this person so much that a concession was not, like, was actually not... I- it's not what I wanted. I actually wanted to be happy with them.

    18. JFJefferson Fisher45:53

        Yeah.

    19. SPSpeaker45:54

        So I had to... You know. I was thinking of so many... Some, some recent examples where my girlfriend came to me and apologized for something where we were, like, disagreeing about it, and I just felt like shit that she apologized. [laughs] It's hard to explain.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher46:04

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no, that's not an uncommon experience. Whenever you feel like you had to always be right, th-that's what we really want. We want the last word. When you have the last word, you are typically first up to apologize. That's all you've, that's all you've bought yourself. That's the, that's your prize. Congrats.

    21. SPSpeaker46:22

        Mm.

    22. JFJefferson Fisher46:22

        And when that happens, you find a way of going, "That's not really what I, I wanted. Why did I say that? That was just, that was just hubris. That was just me. I just... I had a feeling of being right." And sometimes we have that feeling of when... especially in terms of people that are in charge of other people, um, we expect others to do what we say. When you're in work mode and you say, "I need this done," people get it done. You set the tone. You... This is how we wanna do it. And sometimes we translate that into our own romantic relationships.

    23. SPSpeaker46:53

        Mm.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher46:54

        "Oh, no, I said it needs to be this way, so you know what you need to do? You need to do it this way."

    25. SPSpeaker46:58

        Mm-hmm.

    26. JFJefferson Fisher46:58

        And it's a different shift when you're doing something that's romantic versus something that is you have to be captain of the, the ship. And so whenever you're in those difficult conversations and you're only seeing something to win, you're gonna have a pro-problem. What I teach is instead of seeing arguments as something to win, you see them as something to unravel, meaning what we wanna do is pull my way, and then you pull it your way, and it just makes it worse. It makes it worse. We have to give up, and it's not until that next conversation that we actually ch- try and care of what happened. I will often tell someone, "Help me find the knot. Help me find the knot." And what I'm doing is encouraging them to say... I'm not saying, "What's wrong with you?" I'm not saying, "Can, can you be any more stupid?" I'm saying, "Help me find the knot." It's a way of detaching the issue, detaching the problem, saying, "This is something for us both to look at." Help unravel where's the, what am I missing? That phrase right there is very, very effective. If you can just ask them the question, what am I missing, they will always tell you 'cause most likely it's not something that you're focused on. You're only focused on what you're saying. You're not focused on what they're hearing. Big, big difference.

14. 48:07 – 58:21

    Curiosity that creates space: the two-glasses analogy and hidden backstories

    1. SPSpeaker48:07

       I have, um, two glasses on the floor here.

    2. JFJefferson Fisher48:09

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker48:10

       Um, try not to spill it.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher48:15

       Nice.

    5. SPSpeaker48:15

       Long time since I've been a waiter.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher48:17

       [laughs]

    7. SPSpeaker48:19

       Um, so I have these two glasses of water in front of me. H- what is... I know there's an analogy you, you have for having a good, effective conversation that can be demonstrated with these two glasses of water.

    8. JFJefferson Fisher48:30

       Yeah. So let's say that- This glass right here is all of my thoughts and knowledge, and your glass is all of your thoughts and knowledge, and not just what you think now. These are things that you've known throughout your entire life. So if I were to tell you something about... I want to get your thoughts on maybe a political opinion or something that's a religious belief. I'm talking like deeply held beliefs that you grew up with. That's what's in that cup right there. When we go into a conversation with someone, often what we find is, especially if it's like a stranger, that what I say in our first conversation should convince you automatically that if I were to take all of my knowledge right here and I pour it in, there should be no problem. But what, but what happens? When I start to pour into here, it overflows, meaning you have no room. You have no room for what I want to share whatsoever. It's gonna just... It's overflow. Instead, what you have to find are ways to ask questions and get really curious, meaning instead of me pushing my point, instead of saying, "Why do you believe that?" beginning your question with why, I start to get really curious about, "How did you come to believe that? Where did you learn that? When did this happen?" Ways that I get to ask questions every day like I do as a trial attorney to find ways of getting to the issue of what's that deeply held belief. Where does it come from? Because only then... Let's go ahead and pour yours into mine. [glass clinking] [pouring] There we go. Perfect. And so it's only then, until you have space that I'm asking questions, whenever I ask questions and you start to answer just a little bit more, and then you answer just a little bit more to where you actually have space to care at all to what I'm gonna tell you. Like you can't fill... I can't fill a glass that's already full with new thoughts. It's not gonna happen. It's not until I can get you to pour it all out, till you'll ever be receptive and have room for what I want to share with you. So that's the key in difficult conversations, that you have to find ways to get really curious about who's the person behind the words, because the person you see isn't the person you're talking to. I might be talking to Stephen right now, but there are things that happened in your life that you believe that happened long before I ever talked to you. And we have this hubris about us that we think that just because I told you you should believe something right at this moment, you're gonna automatically change your mind. Minds don't get changed in one conversation. Th-they happen over a year of 100 conversations, 1,000 conversations before anybody will ever be receptive to what you have to say.

    9. SPSpeaker51:17

       So what's like a real world example of this idea that you might not be talking to Stephen, you might be talking to something he's dealing with?

    10. JFJefferson Fisher51:24

        Yeah. So let's put it in terms of I've had a, a, a client before. Uh, this is not a... Let me rephrase that. I had a deposition before where I was talking to a witness, and he was a huge mountain of a man. His name is Bobby Lapray. I'm talking, Stephen, he was huge. His hands... I mean, he just looked... I looked like I was physically deficient in every way next to this guy. And it didn't matter what I asked him, Stephen. He got mad at me. I mean, I was asking him basic things like, "Where were you, where were you born?" okay, and, "Where'd you, where'd you go next? And what happened next?" And every time he would just get angrier and angrier. And eventually I had to ask him, I said, "Do you need a break?" And he said, "No, but I got something to say." And I thought, I thought he was about to just flip the, the table on me. He, he was just so furious. And I asked him... Well, once he even told me, he said, "You, you can cut all this buddy-buddy stuff." Except he didn't say stuff. And he said, "You, you lawyers, you attorneys, you're the worst thing to happen in this government. You're the worst thing to happen. So you can go on and ask your stupid questions, but I don't trust you as far as I can throw you." Well, instead of taking that bait, which is most people wanted to do, I asked him a question. I said, "What am I missing? What's, what are you struggling with right now in your, in your life? What's been your biggest struggle?" And they have to ask my... They have to h- answer questions in a deposition. And what I learned was that he, big ol' Bobby Lapray, this huge guy, had just put his mother in a nursing home, and he was the only one to take care of her. His dad had died, his brother was off, and he had been getting letters for months about his mom and her home from lawyers about foreclosing, making demands, debt collection, all these things that he just didn't understand. And so right then in that moment, I represented everything he knew about the law and lawyers and everything else. And so the person I saw was an aggressive, mad witness. The person I was talking to was a worried son. And, and we got to talk that out, and I helped him, and it was a... It ended, it ended wonderful. We ended actually hugging. But every day you have these micro moments of the person you see is not the person you're talking to. The, the waitress that looks like she's being rude and dismissive is actually worried because she should've gotten off two hours ago and her mom is still keeping her kids. Or you have somebody who, even in the workplace, who seem like they're a little bit short on their, their phone call with you. Somebody who looks like they're aggravated, actually their day began because, y- you know, he and his wife are going through a divorce and they stayed up all night arguing. Everybody has a struggle that you can't see. They're having a conversation in their head that you were not invited to. And so when you have the patience to try and understand the person behind the words, it's going to go a, a whole lot better for you, and they'll feel that. When you just wanna accept them for what they look like, it's, it's always different. Like when I... If I were to tell you you were wrong about something- Uh, for me to change your mind, like right now, I most likely am not saying that Steven's wrong. I'm saying your parents are wrong. I'm saying a grandparent's wrong. Something you grew up your whole life was wrong. A camp you went to growing up was all wrong. There's pieces and identities that have all combined into what you believe now, and we have this horrible habit of thinking for some reason that if I say it to you right in this moment, it's all going to change, and you're gonna, uh, just immediately conform to what I want you to be.

    11. SPSpeaker55:11

        Being triggered is a hallmark of that, isn't it?

    12. JFJefferson Fisher55:13

        Yeah.

    13. SPSpeaker55:13

        Like being... When we say, "Oh, dear God, they're like easily triggered," it's really you're scratching at a open wound that might have been there many years ago. I r- I was reflecting as you were speaking about a particular friend that I have who I remember a conversation with him in the middle of the pandemic where he, he like turned to me and said, um, [lip smack] "It's people that are young and healthy that are ending up in the hospital beds." And I remember saying to him, I was like... I was living at his house. I was like, "No, I don't think that. I think the web-"

    14. JFJefferson Fisher55:39

        Yeah.

    15. SPSpeaker55:39

        "... the NHS website says it's people that are like out of shape and slightly older that are ending up in hospital beds." And he like was like really, really triggered by that.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher55:47

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SPSpeaker55:48

        And I remember he's like a good friend of mine, so we had a conversation about it, and we dug and dug and dug 'cause we're like really good friends. Like, why, why is it that all of us as, like, boys, we know in like the group chat when we're bantering, all we've gotta do is say, like, "No, you're wrong."

    18. JFJefferson Fisher56:01

        Wait, one last thing.

    19. SPSpeaker56:02

        One thing, and it's like red mist.

    20. JFJefferson Fisher56:03

        Yeah.

    21. SPSpeaker56:04

        And we had like a really open conversation about it over, uh, really over the last like year and a half, and he said, um, [lip smack] "When I was younger, all of the teachers thought I was stupid, and also, I then got bullied on the playground because people thought I was stupid. And then I found text messages from my grandmother to my mum where they said I was stupid, and then I found on my report card they'd basically written me off." So 30 years later, when we're having a conversation-

    22. JFJefferson Fisher56:33

        Wow

    23. SPSpeaker56:33

        ... just a trivial conversation about-

    24. JFJefferson Fisher56:34

        Yeah

    25. SPSpeaker56:34

        ... the pandemic, when I go, "No, I don't think that's right," and I like pull up the website and stuff, and he gets... like sees the red mist, as me and him call it now. It all stems back-

    26. JFJefferson Fisher56:43

        Yeah

    27. SPSpeaker56:43

        ... 30 years to this experience of on the playground. So-

    28. JFJefferson Fisher56:46

        Hmm

    29. SPSpeaker56:46

        ... like you said, it could be proving, proving someone wrong, but in that case, it's actually like proving the bullies right.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher56:51

        Yes.
15. 58:21 – 1:28:19

    Dealing with triggers, insults, disrespect, and bullying: silence, repetition, and walking away

    1. SPSpeaker58:21

       If you're dealing with someone in your romantic relationship, at work, whatever, that is easily triggered in that regard, what advice would you give to the person dealing with that person who is, like, continually-

    2. JFJefferson Fisher58:34

       Hmm

    3. SPSpeaker58:34

       ... easily triggered? They see the red mist all the time. It's almost impossible to talk to them because they immediately just flip to 10.

    4. JFJefferson Fisher58:39

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker58:40

       They avoid the difficult conversation. You feel now that you can't even have that conversation with them because they're immediately gonna gaslight you, or they're just gonna go straight to 10, and they're gonna be flooded.

    6. JFJefferson Fisher58:51

       Right.

    7. SPSpeaker58:51

       You know that phrase that I've heard before about, like, when the brain gets flooded. Like, they just-

    8. JFJefferson Fisher58:54

       Yeah

    9. SPSpeaker58:54

       ... get overwhelmed, and they're-

    10. JFJefferson Fisher58:55

        Yes.

    11. SPSpeaker58:56

        What do you do with that kind of person? You just-

    12. JFJefferson Fisher58:58

        Curious

    13. SPSpeaker58:58

        ... curious or?

    14. JFJefferson Fisher58:59

        Well, it's... I don't wanna just say curious because I don't... I think that doesn't do it justice. One would be you have to delay what you, what they said from when you respond. You have to add a lot of distance there because if you continue to engage and go, "Why, why can't you talk about this? What's wrong with you?" That will only spiral it more. You... What they're gonna hear is something is wrong with me, something I am feeling is bad, when in that moment, their body is fighting. Their body is going, "I feel threatened. I feel anxious. I gotta get out of here." And it's happening in micro minutes that you... There's nothing you're gonna be able to say that's going to help that trigger aside from you allowing them the space to have it. So that means you're going to find ways to approach conversations with that in mind. So one would be adding distance and not addressing it in that current conversation because they're triggered. You don't wanna do that. You wanna find it in the second conversation. So in the first one, you can easily end it with, "Hey, we can drop it. Not a problem. We can talk about it later." Because y- problems happen, Steven, when you try and push people into having conversations on your timeline. In other words, when they're not ready. You ever had somebody come up to you and go, "Hey, I need to talk to you right now."

    15. SPSpeaker1:00:20

        Yes.

    16. JFJefferson Fisher1:00:20

        And, and you're like, "Ugh, oh, you wanna talk?" Like, that's the last thing. You're, "You're trying to control my time. This is not what I wanna talk about right now, and I'm not ready for this conversation." And that, that causes a big problem when somebody's trying to push their timeline on you. He, um, we can talk about ways to, to deal with that, but it is... That's what happens. And when you do it with somebody, going, "What's wrong with you? Let's talk a- wh- why can't you talk about this right now?" You're just pushing them into a corner, and you're making them harder. I mean, you just... They become hardened to you. They'll totally shut off from you. Then they're gone. Then they won't come back for several days most likely. So when you start to push on them, things are go- wrong. So that's, when somebody's feeling triggered, that second conversation, that next conversation is the, "I'd like..." Well, let's put a frame on it. "I'd like to talk about what we began talking on, on last Monday, and I, I'm not trying to solve anything. I, I just wanna understand where you're coming from so that I can do better. Can we do that?" Like right there, that's gonna be a much better way to set up and frame that difficult conversation, rather than going, "Hey, so, um, I... Question for you. Uh, what's up with you? Because something's, something's off." All right? Like, that's the way that it's gonna, you're gonna trigger them again.

    17. SPSpeaker1:01:39

        How do you handle somebody that kinda belittles you? They're, like, picking on your weight, or they're-

    18. JFJefferson Fisher1:01:46

        Mm

    19. SPSpeaker1:01:46

        ... constantly like, "Are you still single?" Like-

    20. JFJefferson Fisher1:01:49

        Yeah. [laughs]

    21. SPSpeaker1:01:49

        You know? Like, people, like, especially-

    22. JFJefferson Fisher1:01:51

        Yeah, yeah

    23. SPSpeaker1:01:51

        ... people that you're close with have a way of belittling you.

    24. JFJefferson Fisher1:01:54

        Right.

    25. SPSpeaker1:01:54

        What, what, what do you do in those situations?

    26. JFJefferson Fisher1:01:57

        When somebody's belittling you or giving you a insult and a hurtful comment, you make them repeat it. Because what they're hoping to do in that belittling comment is get that reaction out of you. And instead, you find a way to take all the fun out of it. So when you ask them to repeat what they said, they're... You're not giving them that hit of dopamine that they're expecting from your reaction. They're not getting that, that response time from you. Instead, you're delaying that gratification for them, then it's just not worth it. Then it's just not fun. And so when you ask them to repeat it, to say, "I need you to say that again," uh, you're-

    27. SPSpeaker1:02:34

        I'm thinking of, of, like, using this-

    28. JFJefferson Fisher1:02:36

        Yeah

    29. SPSpeaker1:02:36

        ... with a couple people in my life.

    30. JFJefferson Fisher1:02:38

        Yeah. It-

Episode duration: 1:28:20