The One Thing People Remember More Than Your Talent ft. Will Guidara

Jefferson Fisher 0:00 Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast. On today's episode, my guest is Will Guidara. He is the author of The New York Times bestselling book, Unreasonable Hospitality. If you see a bright yellow book in an airport or a bookstore, it's most likely Will's. He is fantastic. He is the former co-owner of the restaurant Eleven Madison Park in New York, and under his leadership, it was named the number one restaurant in the entire world. And he is also the co-producer of FX series Emmy Award-winning show, The Bear. There are so many gems from this conversation. We talk all about the art of hospitality in conversation. How, how do you bring creativity and deliver more than just the minimum expectations in how we interact with one, with one another? We talk all about how to have the right kind of meetings, how to get attention immediately, how to navigate the right way, and at the end of the day, how to do it with grace and kindness and a little bit of something spontaneous that you never expected. Enjoy. So you go to a restaurant, and then it's easy to kind of pick up on those little moments. I, I, I imagine even when you're working and even if you're just there hanging out, like it's almost impossible for your eyes not to be just like hypervigilant the whole time.

Will Guidara 1:09 Well, so like with intention.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11 Yes.

Will Guidara 1:12 The other night at dinner-

Jefferson Fisher 1:13 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 1:14 ... I sat in the chair facing the window.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16 Yeah. I, I noticed that.

Will Guidara 1:17 I will always, if there's a chair where I'm looking at a wall-

Jefferson Fisher 1:22 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:23 ... that's where I'll sit.

Jefferson Fisher 1:24 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:25 Just because I've gotten pretty good at it, but like I don't need... It's like an addict hanging out with like heroin on the table.

Jefferson Fisher 1:33 [laughs]

Will Guidara 1:33 It's unnecessary. Like-

Jefferson Fisher 1:35 Yeah, yeah, you don't need to be doing that

Will Guidara 1:36 ... I don't need the distraction because I will invariably like, "Wait, why are they... Oh."

Jefferson Fisher 1:41 Yeah. And all of a sudden you're, and then you're gone from the conversation.

Will Guidara 1:44 And then, and then I just missed the most beautiful part of the conversation-

Jefferson Fisher 1:46 Right

Will Guidara 1:47 ... that I helped to perhaps set in motion.

Jefferson Fisher 1:49 I get that. I have, uh, one of my best friends, uh, was a policeman forever, and still he sits always where he can see the door. Like that's just-

Will Guidara 1:58 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 1:59 ... he, he, he's, he's not gonna sit anywhere. He can't c- feel comfortable not looking at a door when he's sitting down like that.

Will Guidara 2:05 So I do the opposite. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 2:06 You do the opposite.

Will Guidara 2:07 Yeah. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 2:07 Well, yeah, 'cause you don't wanna see it. And one thing I was gonna s-

Will Guidara 2:09 But also my work doesn't have the capacity to save someone's life.

Jefferson Fisher 2:12 That's true.

Will Guidara 2:13 So [laughs] there's, the stakes are a little different.

Jefferson Fisher 2:14 Well, you are trained in the Heimlich, you know what I'm saying? [laughs]

Will Guidara 2:16 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 2:16 Like you might, you might be. And I was gonna tell you, uh, this is a little gem most people don't know. So when I, uh, was at my old, uh, first law firm, big defense firm, and I was getting the itch of I'm in my mid-20s, and who-- Everybody in their mid-20s thinks, "I know this better than everybody."

Will Guidara 2:39 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 2:39 Like, "I'm the smartest. I know this. E- I'm right. Everybody else is wrong."

Will Guidara 2:42 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 2:43 And I was really wanting to learn business, of like having my own business, 'cause I went straight from law school into big law and, and doing that life. And-

Will Guidara 2:52 Business as in starting your own firm?

Jefferson Fisher 2:54 Uh, yeah, or, or just, uh, w- how do you, how do you have your own employees? Like what's that?

Will Guidara 2:59 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 2:59 How is it you can do that?

Will Guidara 3:00 Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 3:01 And so COVID, my, one of my best friends, amazing chef by himself, uh, and he had just gotten let go of this restaurant, and then there was this like, I don't know what they call it, Class A commercial building that had a restaurant in it that was looking for a new person to come in. And so I came in with him, and we opened that little restaurant.

Will Guidara 3:26 Wait, you actually did it?

Jefferson Fisher 3:27 Uh-huh. And a coffee shop right next to it. Like a, a little-

Will Guidara 3:30 No way

Jefferson Fisher 3:31 ... American food little place, uh, that did really well. And, and so I learned all about plate costs and all of like the things-

Will Guidara 3:41 Were you actually in it?

Jefferson Fisher 3:43 Yeah, dude.

Will Guidara 3:44 You're like on the floor?

Jefferson Fisher 3:45 Yeah.

Will Guidara 3:46 No way.

Jefferson Fisher 3:46 Yeah. And so it was... And I would help out on expo and try all the different-

Will Guidara 3:51 No way.

Jefferson Fisher 3:51 Yeah, man. And so it was-

Will Guidara 3:53 Is that restaurant still there?

Jefferson Fisher 3:54 It's still there. I, I, I sold my part. If like I got... It was like I could either try to get an MBA in business, or I could just put the same amount of money into-

Will Guidara 4:03 Go work at a restaurant for a while

Jefferson Fisher 4:04 ... learning and, yeah, yeah, and, and doing it. Even though many would say not the best business model for, for certain things. But it was, it was fantastic. And now, and I, what I learned a lot, and I think whereas I wish I had had, and we're gonna tuck into this field guide that you have. Like I'm, I'm generally not a jealous guy.

Will Guidara 4:25 All right. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 4:26 All right? This field guide, as soon as I saw it and got it in my hands, I was like, "Dog gone it, this is so good."

Will Guidara 4:33 Dude, thank you.

Jefferson Fisher 4:34 I wish I had had that.

Will Guidara 4:35 Thank you, man.

Jefferson Fisher 4:35 Because I came in, and a lot of my creativity, which I think... I know I'm, I'm actually a very creative person that just went into law, and life has led me back-

Will Guidara 4:48 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 4:48 ... to doing more creativity, is I got focused on brand.

Will Guidara 4:53 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 4:53 I got focused on the right logo, the right tagline, the right like aesthetic-

Will Guidara 4:57 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 4:58 ... instead of just serving people to what they w- a- above and beyond-

Will Guidara 5:05 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 5:05 ... and exceeding that expectation. And I know a lot of your stuff is it's not just... Hospitality is not meeting expectation. It is exceeding it and giving people more than they think they could ever deserve.

Will Guidara 5:17 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 5:17 And, and so that was my like, "I need to make sure I mention that to him" of-

Will Guidara 5:22 Thank you, man

Jefferson Fisher 5:22 ... so I wish I had had, I wish I'd had that. But I got in and out. I was, I had it for like, uh, four years.

Will Guidara 5:28 And you had fun.

Jefferson Fisher 5:29 I did. I had a blast.

Will Guidara 5:29 And you learned a bunch.

Jefferson Fisher 5:31 I learned a bunch. I had some of the biggest laughs I've ever had in my life just-

Will Guidara 5:35 Also, there are few things, there are few groups that will ever be as close-

Jefferson Fisher 5:44 Yeah

Will Guidara 5:45 ... as a group that has opened a restaurant together.

Jefferson Fisher 5:48 Right. [laughs] Yeah.

Will Guidara 5:49 Do you know what I mean?

Jefferson Fisher 5:49 Yeah. For sure.

Will Guidara 5:49 Like, 'cause it's the, it's, it-- the entire emotional gamut.

Jefferson Fisher 5:54 Yeah.

Will Guidara 5:54 Like you have all the highs and the fun and the laughs-

Jefferson Fisher 5:58 Right, right

Will Guidara 5:58 ... and then those moments when you're on expo-

Jefferson Fisher 6:00 Yeah

Will Guidara 6:01 ... and you're like, "I was a very successful lawyer."

Jefferson Fisher 6:05 Exactly.

Will Guidara 6:05 "How does my brain have an inability-"

Jefferson Fisher 6:07 Yeah. Exactly. [laughs]

Will Guidara 6:07 "... to figure out how to figure out what plate of food goes to what table-"

Jefferson Fisher 6:10 Yeah.

Will Guidara 6:10 "... within what frame of time" and like-

Jefferson Fisher 6:11 Yeah

Will Guidara 6:12 ... and then there's the teamwork to figure it out. I love that.

Jefferson Fisher 6:14 Mm-hmm. And, and, and the thing was at the time, the law firm was like shut down. For a year, you know

Will Guidara 6:19 So you had-

Jefferson Fisher 6:20 Because they were trying to still get the ti- with the times of remote work.

Will Guidara 6:23 So you had space.

Jefferson Fisher 6:24 And so, yeah, I had space, and because it was a commercial building, we were able to do a lot of stuff that others weren't.

Will Guidara 6:29 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 6:29 And take advantage of proximity and six feet or whatever. But man, I laughed some of the hardest I've ever laughed-

Will Guidara 6:36 It's so fun

Jefferson Fisher 6:37 ... in being back a house doing stuff like that. And we, um, we had-- Uh, it was also some of the worst hurricanes, and so we were able to provide a lot of food for first responders. And so, and so we're making-

Will Guidara 6:50 Doing that well

Jefferson Fisher 6:50 ... food at like four AM.

Will Guidara 6:52 It's like, "Okay, let's open a restaurant."

Jefferson Fisher 6:53 Yeah.

Will Guidara 6:54 But we have to figure out how to work within all of the adversity that is COVID.

Jefferson Fisher 6:59 Yes.

Will Guidara 6:59 You know what? What else would be cool? Hurricanes. [laughing]

Jefferson Fisher 7:04 So sorry, anybody got it? Anybody? Yes, that's it, hurricanes. Let's go. Man, and, um, but, uh, mine is just a small fraction of just the depth of, of knowledge that you have in this industry. And I, I do-- I absolutely wanna get into the, the field guide, which I am just thrilled to be one of the first to get it in the hands. Um, but I-

Will Guidara 7:28 The way you articulated, like, the brand.

Jefferson Fisher 7:31 Yeah.

Will Guidara 7:33 It is very, very common for someone to get like, "All right, I wanna be really creative about the food on the plate."

Jefferson Fisher 7:40 Mm.

Will Guidara 7:40 "I wanna be really creative about what plates we use, about what the room looks like. I wanna be creative about what the logo is and the tagline-

Jefferson Fisher 7:48 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 7:49 ... and the uniforms." And yet, the one thing that people will actually remember is where people stop being creative.

Jefferson Fisher 7:59 Yeah.

Will Guidara 8:00 And-

Jefferson Fisher 8:01 Where they stopped

Will Guidara 8:02 ... where they stop. No one-- very few people, rather, invest their best efforts into just the big and little things that make people feel a sense of connection to, to a place.

Jefferson Fisher 8:14 Yeah. I think that's so right.

Will Guidara 8:15 And it's so counter-- Like, the moment you say it out loud like that-

Jefferson Fisher 8:20 Yeah

Will Guidara 8:20 ... and it's like, "Oh, well, that makes sense."

Jefferson Fisher 8:23 But yet.

Will Guidara 8:24 But yet.

Jefferson Fisher 8:25 Yeah, but yet. I, um, you know, you have the book Unreasonable Hospitality, and I'm gonna be able to share with my audience all, all of your background. But I, I-- my mind always turns to communication.

Will Guidara 8:40 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 8:40 And so I, I have been toying with the idea of, like, what is the equivalent of unreasonable hospitality in communication? If, if we define hospitality as you do, the creative, intentional act of making people f- feel seen, heard, and cared for-

Will Guidara 9:00 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 9:00 ... above and beyond the service. You know, what does that feel like, look like in communication? So I was curious, in your mind, what-- whether it's relationships, whether it's team, 'cause I do wanna talk team, what do you find are those moments that have been that unreasonableness that you benefited from-

Will Guidara 9:23 Hmm

Jefferson Fisher 9:23 ... in conversation with people? So, so some of your best friends.

Will Guidara 9:28 Well, I mean, I think a lot of your work centers around hospitality.

Jefferson Fisher 9:35 Right.

Will Guidara 9:36 I really do. Like, those two words, creativity and intention-

Jefferson Fisher 9:42 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 9:42 ... I circle back to often, right? I think the most beautiful things happen at the intersection of those two things, right? The intention of saying, "I want to communicate this."

Jefferson Fisher 9:53 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 9:54 'Cause a lot of people in communication are not very intentional about-

Jefferson Fisher 9:58 [laughs]

Will Guidara 9:58 ... what is coming out of their mouths, right?

Jefferson Fisher 10:00 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Will Guidara 10:00 Like, as opposed to saying, "What am I actually trying to communicate? Okay, it's this." Then creativity. What's the right way to communicate it such that the message will actually be received and, depending on the context-

Jefferson Fisher 10:16 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 10:16 ... in a way that is supportive and not destructive or thoughtful-

Jefferson Fisher 10:22 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 10:22 ... and not insulting, right? And when it's that kind of communication or if you're attempting to make someone feel some level of affirmation, they're actually communicating to them in a way that they can receive it well.

Jefferson Fisher 10:36 Yeah.

Will Guidara 10:36 So, like, on the... I talk a lot about feedback.

Jefferson Fisher 10:41 Right.

Will Guidara 10:42 I think you cannot create anything extraordinary in a business absent, like, creating a culture where feedback is the norm. And when I talk about feedback, yes, I'm talking about praise, obviously, because when you set really high expectations for people and they meet or exceed those expectations, you better be there to celebrate them.

Jefferson Fisher 11:05 Yeah.

Will Guidara 11:05 A, because it's the right thing to do, but, well, B, the more praise I receive, the more praise I want to receive.

Jefferson Fisher 11:14 Right.

Will Guidara 11:14 Right? You're telling people what right looks like, and you're encouraging them to do more of that. And not to mention the fact that in a group, if we're having a daily huddle, and I'm celebrating the heck out of you-

Jefferson Fisher 11:25 Yeah

Will Guidara 11:25 ... everyone else in the group is gonna be like, "I want a piece of that."

Jefferson Fisher 11:28 Exactly.

Will Guidara 11:29 So obviously praise, but I think we focus so much on praise that we don't spend nearly enough time focusing on criticism.

Jefferson Fisher 11:36 Mm.

Will Guidara 11:37 Because if praise is affirmation, criticism is investment.

Jefferson Fisher 11:41 So if we can say un- an equivalent of unreasonable hospitality and communication is the value of criticism done right.

Will Guidara 11:49 Thoughtful criticism.

Jefferson Fisher 11:50 Hmm. Thoughtful criticism.

Will Guidara 11:51 Yeah. And in the same way that I've watched your videos where you're like, "Hey, if you wanna do this, like, do this."

Jefferson Fisher 11:58 Yeah.

Will Guidara 11:59 Right?

Jefferson Fisher 12:00 Right. You-- It-- What are, what are some other ways that you could-

Will Guidara 12:03 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 12:04 It, it was kind of like your idea of like, there's a better way to do this.

Will Guidara 12:06 There's a better way.

Jefferson Fisher 12:07 You know, when you walk into a restaurant-

Will Guidara 12:08 What's the-- Yes, exactly

Jefferson Fisher 12:09 ... a hotel, you know, there's a better way to do this.

Will Guidara 12:11 But with criticism, I mean, unreasonable communication and criticism is recognizing that there's, like, things you need to keep in mind if you want it to be thoughtful-

Jefferson Fisher 12:22 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 12:22 ... if you want it to be an investment, and-

Jefferson Fisher 12:24 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 12:24 ... let's criticize in private, not in public.

Jefferson Fisher 12:26 Mm.

Will Guidara 12:27 It's criticize the behavior, not the person. Remember that I'm telling you to wear white socks. I'm not telling you you're an idiot.

Jefferson Fisher 12:37 [laughs]

Will Guidara 12:38 You know what I mean? Like-

Jefferson Fisher 12:38 Yeah, yeah

Will Guidara 12:38 ... you're great.

Jefferson Fisher 12:39 Right.

Will Guidara 12:39 Just do this differently. To criticize consistently-

Jefferson Fisher 12:43 Mm

Will Guidara 12:44 ... because some people are so uncomfortable with investing in someone else's growth through criticism that they don't do it until they're either in a bad mood or have the energy and-

Jefferson Fisher 12:55 Yeah

Will Guidara 12:56 ... two things happen when you are inconsistent in criticism. People don't actually know what right looks like 'cause they could do-

Jefferson Fisher 13:02 Yeah

Will Guidara 13:02 ... the same thing three days in a row, and they're only getting called on it the third. Or a negative connotation is attached to it because you only do it when you're in a foul mood, right? And so you-

Jefferson Fisher 13:12 Yeah

Will Guidara 13:12 ... do it in a bad way. Um-

Jefferson Fisher 13:15 Do you think that there's, like, a line between just feedback, general feedback and also criticism?

Will Guidara 13:22 I think criticism is a type of feedback.

Jefferson Fisher 13:24 Okay.

Will Guidara 13:25 I think praise is a type of feedback.

Jefferson Fisher 13:27 Yeah.

Will Guidara 13:27 And criticism a ty- is a type of feedback.

Jefferson Fisher 13:28 Not all feedback is criticism.

Will Guidara 13:29 No.

Jefferson Fisher 13:30 Yeah.

Will Guidara 13:30 If, if you do something great, my feedback is, "Hey"

Jefferson Fisher 13:33 Yeah.

Will Guidara 13:34 "You crushed that."

Jefferson Fisher 13:36 Right.

Will Guidara 13:36 That's feedback.

Jefferson Fisher 13:37 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 13:38 Or if you do something not so great-

Jefferson Fisher 13:40 Yeah

Will Guidara 13:41 ... "Hey."

Jefferson Fisher 13:41 [laughs]

Will Guidara 13:43 But listen, anyone that wants to grow, if they are not receiving criticism, they're never gonna become their most fully realized self.

Jefferson Fisher 13:52 Yeah, you have to have it.

Will Guidara 13:54 It's like if... Do you see a trainer?

Jefferson Fisher 13:56 For?

Will Guidara 13:57 To like a physical trainer?

Jefferson Fisher 13:59 No, this is all organic, brother.

Will Guidara 14:00 That just comes, that just comes. You just wake up like that?

Jefferson Fisher 14:02 Yeah, that's right.

Will Guidara 14:02 All right, well, I, I do. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 14:05 [laughs] I fr- I, I probably would benefit from one. Just-

Will Guidara 14:07 I just started this year, and it's a game changer.

Jefferson Fisher 14:10 Is it really?

Will Guidara 14:11 What it's done is I spent-

Jefferson Fisher 14:12 I need somebody for nutrition. Like, I need somebody to help go, "You need to eat these things," because if I'm not careful with school drop-off and everything, I will miss breakfast, and I turn around and it's 2:00. And it's like, okay this-

Will Guidara 14:23 And then you're eating the least healthy thing in the entire world.

Jefferson Fisher 14:25 For sure, and then, and then it ha- it happens that I'm really not hungry for 5:30 PM-

Will Guidara 14:29 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 14:29 ... dinner with my kids, and so, you know, I... Not my be- That's what I need. Okay, so trainer.

Will Guidara 14:34 Well, first of all, it's a great thing to have in my experience-

Jefferson Fisher 14:38 Yeah

Will Guidara 14:38 ... because I get as much done in half the time.

Jefferson Fisher 14:40 Mm.

Will Guidara 14:40 But if I'm doing a workout not the right way, I want him to tell me what I'm doing wrong.

Jefferson Fisher 14:48 Yeah.

Will Guidara 14:50 Otherwise, I'm just wasting time, and I'd rather invest that time efficiently and actually get stronger by result of the investment. So-

Jefferson Fisher 14:56 Right. And how much stronger you could get if you just-

Will Guidara 14:58 Exactly

Jefferson Fisher 14:58 ... move your form just, like, a little bit.

Will Guidara 15:00 But if every time the trainer was like, "Hey, do this," whatever the... "Bro, stop talking to me like that."

Jefferson Fisher 15:04 Yeah. "I'm doing it right."

Will Guidara 15:06 Guess what he's gonna stop doing.

Jefferson Fisher 15:07 Yeah.

Will Guidara 15:08 Correcting me.

Jefferson Fisher 15:09 Right.

Will Guidara 15:09 Because it's too exhausting to give me the feedback.

Jefferson Fisher 15:11 Yeah. Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. First off, uh, my mama has their pajama set, which I gave to her last year. They-- The company sent them to me. They're like, "Here, maybe your mom's gonna like these." I was like, "Let me send them to my mom," who, let me tell you, is the type of person who likes to salt and pepper everything. So she's extremely particular about all the things. And she told me so much that she loved these. I got a text from her three weeks before Mother's Day asking me if I still had my code for Cozy Earth because she wanted some more pajamas. I said, "Mama, I will get them for you." So y'all know I got her some more pajamas. But that's how good they are. So if you, whether it's Mother's Day or not, who cares? If you know a mom or you're a mom, or you're just somebody who likes to sleep in a full set pajama, you can go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code JEFFERSON, and get up to twenty percent off. They have a ten-year warranty. Awesome product, awesome company. cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the

Jefferson Fisher 16:12 code JEFFERSON for twenty percent off. Let's keep going. When I was, uh, on the way, knowing this conversation was coming, I was like, wow. I was just wrestling and kind of chewing on the idea of, like, to me, what is that unreasonable hospitality in conversation? And the theme that keep, kept coming up for me is grace. Like, grace can be an unreasonable-

Will Guidara 16:36 Hmm

Jefferson Fisher 16:37 ... thing, like an unreasonable feeling. And it draws that line between mercy and grace. Mercy being you don't get what you deserve. Grace is you get what you don't deserve.

Will Guidara 16:56 Hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 16:57 And so, so much in conversation, like, you might deserve me to give you that clap back, comeback insult right in your face.

Will Guidara 17:09 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 17:10 It would be unreasonable for me-

Will Guidara 17:12 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 17:12 ... to have pause and decide that your worst moment is not gonna determine how I respond.

Will Guidara 17:19 Do you know the, the phrase that I learned from my longtime mentor, his name is Danny Meyer, is Danny Meyer. It was one of the central tenets of the company, was charitable assumption.

Jefferson Fisher 17:31 When you say the company, I wanna-

Will Guidara 17:33 Uh, Unreasonable, uh, Union Square Hospitality Group.

Jefferson Fisher 17:35 Yes. Got it. Okay.

Will Guidara 17:35 So that was like Gramercy Tavern-

Jefferson Fisher 17:37 Yes

Will Guidara 17:37 ... Union Square Cafe. It's where I came up. Um, and there's a whole 'nother idea about communication from that company. But he had these isms, like these short, succinct-

Jefferson Fisher 17:50 I love a good ism

Will Guidara 17:51 ... bordering on cheesy-

Jefferson Fisher 17:53 [laughs]

Will Guidara 17:53 ... articulations-

Jefferson Fisher 17:54 Yeah

Will Guidara 17:55 ... of his non-negotiables.

Jefferson Fisher 17:57 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 17:58 And every time he made an idea into an ism, it was like a meta signal to all of us in the company that that thing mattered.

Jefferson Fisher 18:03 Yeah.

Will Guidara 18:04 Um, one of them was charitable assumption.

Jefferson Fisher 18:07 Hmm.

Will Guidara 18:07 Charitable assumption is another way of saying give people the benefit of the doubt or ask the question before you say the thing.

Jefferson Fisher 18:16 Yeah.

Will Guidara 18:17 And so I'll give an example. Um, someone comes into the restaurant, and they're just a jerk. They are just a jerk. They're acting like a jerk. Now, it's totally reasonable for me to say he doesn't deserve my best hospitality.

Jefferson Fisher 18:35 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 18:37 The charitable assumption though would have me say instead, "Gosh, maybe on his way to the restaurant he found out that someone died."

Jefferson Fisher 18:45 Yeah.

Will Guidara 18:46 Or his wife filed for divorce. Maybe the guy acting like a jerk actually needs my hospitality more than anyone else in the room.

Jefferson Fisher 18:55 Mm.

Will Guidara 18:56 And for me to have that conversation and engage accordingly.

Jefferson Fisher 19:00 Yeah.

Will Guidara 19:00 Now, sometimes just so happened the person was just a jerk.

Jefferson Fisher 19:04 Turns out, yeah.

Will Guidara 19:05 But I'd always rather err-

Jefferson Fisher 19:08 Oh, yeah

Will Guidara 19:08 ... on the side of assuming the best in someone and being proven wrong than err on the side of assuming the worst and being proven wrong.

Jefferson Fisher 19:16 I think that's so true. That just, if you can keep in your mind those maybes, you know, rather than they are exactly what you think they are.

Will Guidara 19:23 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 19:24 And sometimes maybe they are.

Will Guidara 19:26 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 19:26 But maybe they're not.

Will Guidara 19:28 But it's the same thing when you're managing people.

Jefferson Fisher 19:30 Yeah.

Will Guidara 19:30 Someone comes in, and they've been like five minutes late to work for two weeks straight, and because I'm not criticizing consistently, I wait until I'm really upset.

Jefferson Fisher 19:43 Yeah.

Will Guidara 19:43 And I just rip into them. Like, "Do you not care about this job? Like, why do you think it's okay to disrespect us by coming in fi- da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da."

Jefferson Fisher 19:51 Right.

Will Guidara 19:52 Charitable assumption would be like, "Hey, what's going on? Are you okay? Like, I've noticed you're five minutes late every single day, and is there a reason?" And by the way, maybe it's because that person, I'm speaking New York right now, lives in Queens, and there's two different buses that get them to Manhattan on time. One would have them arriving at the restaurant an hour early, and one has them arriving five minutes late, and they have to get their kids to school and-

Jefferson Fisher 20:20 Yeah.

Will Guidara 20:21 Okay, now I've asked the question. Now I have that information. Now I can say, "You know what? Why don't we just shift your in time back 15 minutes?"

Jefferson Fisher 20:28 Yeah.

Will Guidara 20:29 You know, like-

Jefferson Fisher 20:29 Just a little bit like that.

Will Guidara 20:31 And now that relationship, had I reacted the first way, it would've been damaged.

Jefferson Fisher 20:36 Right.

Will Guidara 20:37 Reacting the second way, now it's actually stronger.

Jefferson Fisher 20:39 Yeah.

Will Guidara 20:40 'Cause now they feel like I'm actually invested in them, not just as an employee, but as a human being.

Jefferson Fisher 20:46 And you gave them some grace.

Will Guidara 20:47 Yeah. And I learned something along the way.

Jefferson Fisher 20:49 Right. And that in itself can be unreasonable.

Will Guidara 20:51 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 20:52 Which, which is, um, I think the, the state of things sometimes, it, uh, doing the kind thing can be and feel unreasonable-

Will Guidara 21:02 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 21:02 ... to the given-

Will Guidara 21:03 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 21:03 ... to the given moment. Now, you have managed, I mean, just the number of teams and the number of pressure, and I have heard your story of how Eleven Madison Park had just went under your helm to the number one restaurant in the world, which is just bonkers.

Will Guidara 21:24 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 21:25 Right? But the level of determination, not for just the food being perfect or this being perfect, is that you cared just as much about your team-

Will Guidara 21:37 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 21:37 ... as you did about the people that you're serving. And so there are people that will be listening to this who have their own business, who are small business owners or big business owners that they, they're people managers. And so what I was really curious about are what are some of the questions and things that we need to think about as people managers? So what, what are some of your big like tenets that you're going, "Hey, if I have everybody on hand..." I know you have, what do you call it? Pre-meal.

Will Guidara 22:04 Pre-meal.

Jefferson Fisher 22:05 Yeah, so those kinda like meetings. H-how do you... How can we better manage people?

Will Guidara 22:11 Well, okay, let's start with pre-meal, 'cause that's one of my favorite places to start.

Jefferson Fisher 22:15 Yeah.

Will Guidara 22:16 And I'll frame what that is. So pre-meal is the 30-minute meeting we have every day with our entire team right before we unlock the doors and go into service. And it's a meeting that most restaurants have, and yet it is one that is almost always wasted. Um, and a wasted pre-meal, that happens when, well, you spend the entire time talking about ideas that could easily be communicated via an email, like operational concerns. Because that meeting, it's called a daily huddle, right, in other worlds-

Jefferson Fisher 22:48 Yeah, daily huddles

Will Guidara 22:48 ... is, in my view, the greatest opportunity a leader has to actually step up and lead the people around them.

Jefferson Fisher 22:55 So it's taking our, the, our daily hu-huddle seriously.

Will Guidara 22:58 Taking it very seriously.

Jefferson Fisher 22:59 Okay. For the regular mom-and-pop business, the small business out there, when you have, one, it's understanding daily huddles are a necessity.

Will Guidara 23:07 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 23:08 Um, do, do you require that it be every day, or is it-

Will Guidara 23:12 I mean, listen, I, I never, when I'm talking-

Jefferson Fisher 23:14 Yeah

Will Guidara 23:14 ... to people in other industries, I never want, um, perfect-

Jefferson Fisher 23:19 Sure

Will Guidara 23:19 ... to be the enemy of the good.

Jefferson Fisher 23:21 A cadence that works.

Will Guidara 23:22 A cadence that works.

Jefferson Fisher 23:23 Yeah.

Will Guidara 23:23 And the cadence should be more frequently than you're comfortable with.

Jefferson Fisher 23:29 Oh, that's a good basis.

Will Guidara 23:30 Well, because most people, when they start doing this, they kinda start at somewhat the bare minimum.

Jefferson Fisher 23:36 Yeah.

Will Guidara 23:37 And there is always time to do something if we decide it's an important enough thing to do.

Jefferson Fisher 23:42 Got it.

Will Guidara 23:42 Um, I did 30 minutes a day before lunch and before dinner, so an hour a day, seven days a week. That is obviously not necessary.

Jefferson Fisher 23:49 Right.

Will Guidara 23:49 But some number of minutes. And when you have your team circled, it's not just focusing on the what, but on the how, and more importantly, the why.

Jefferson Fisher 23:58 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 23:59 When, as a leader, we are walking through the world looking for things that inspire us-

Jefferson Fisher 24:05 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 24:05 ... so that we can bring them home and share them with our teams. It like... I'm, I've benefited from the popularity of TED Talks.

Jefferson Fisher 24:14 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 24:15 And yet I think those are so successful because as human beings, we crave inspiration.

Jefferson Fisher 24:21 Yeah.

Will Guidara 24:21 And very few people in our lives have answered the call to actually step up and inspire us. So many companies spend so much time focusing on training, which is important, obviously.

Jefferson Fisher 24:33 Yeah.

Will Guidara 24:33 And yet training absent inspiration is wholly insufficient, because I don't care how much How well you know how to do a job.

Jefferson Fisher 24:41 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 24:42 If you're not inspired to want to do it really well, you're never gonna bring your most fully realized self to the table. I think a lot of leaders, even the ones that have that meaning, there's something about people that holds them back from bringing their most passionate self to it.

Jefferson Fisher 24:59 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 25:00 Because we've all been on the receiving end of this at some point, like passion is contagious.

Jefferson Fisher 25:06 Yeah.

Will Guidara 25:06 If someone steps up in front of you and speaks with every ounce of their being why the work you are doing matters-

Jefferson Fisher 25:13 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 25:13 ... how you can impact other people, why taking it seriously is a virtuous approach to take, why there's fun to be had or connections to be made, whatever it is.

Jefferson Fisher 25:27 Yeah.

Will Guidara 25:28 I don't think a lot of people can, like, fully understand that. I, I think communication with your team, people need to stop trying to be so cool and just be really, really, really excited because that bleeds into those around them.

Jefferson Fisher 25:43 That's hard for some people. I mean, I'm, I'm thinking of like you have, uh, the history of what you've created empowered and gave autonomy to your team to say, "Hey, when you see those magical moments-"

Will Guidara 25:58 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 25:58 ... "that we can create unreasonable hospitality, when you overhear that table talk about going sledding or wishing they had a..." What do you, you call it Dirty Dog?

Will Guidara 26:08 Dirty Water Dog.

Jefferson Fisher 26:09 Dirty Water Dog.

Will Guidara 26:10 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 26:10 You know, the hot dog, and you're like, you know, how can we create these-

Will Guidara 26:13 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 26:13 ... and cultivate these experiences with them? That is exciting because it's like you don't know, every day is a new adventure of what could come up, and so that unexpected surprise. And I hear in my mind those people who, I don't know, they're a plumbing industry, or they're, they're a fabrication shop, or they're a small accounting business, you know, of ways that they go, "That sounds great, but I'm not in a restaurant. How can I possibly get excited about the fact that we do this and that and this?" When what I hear you saying is you're focusing on the wrong objective. You're-- What you need to be focusing on is what are ways that you can inspire yourselves to be excited about what you're doing? And if you're excited-

Will Guidara 27:06 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 27:06 ... other people are gonna be excited too.

Will Guidara 27:07 The people around you will be too.

Jefferson Fisher 27:08 Yeah.

Will Guidara 27:08 But, but here's the thing. It's not just a restaurant thing. I think there's nobility in service.

Jefferson Fisher 27:14 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 27:15 And I'd say 9.9 out of 10 of the people that are listening to this are in the service industry.

Jefferson Fisher 27:21 Yeah.

Will Guidara 27:21 They're in the business of serving other people. Like-

Jefferson Fisher 27:24 I am

Will Guidara 27:24 ... I think about the world that you came from.

Jefferson Fisher 27:26 Yeah.

Will Guidara 27:28 I would love to run a daily huddle-

Jefferson Fisher 27:31 [laughs]

Will Guidara 27:31 ... in a law firm.

Jefferson Fisher 27:32 [laughs] Well, you can do it for me, my man. [laughs]

Will Guidara 27:35 No, but do you know what I mean? Like-

Jefferson Fisher 27:36 Yeah

Will Guidara 27:37 ... so many people focus so much on the objective that they forget about the people they are there to serve and-

Jefferson Fisher 27:42 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 27:43 ... the anxiety and trepidation with which they're walking into that room. You are there to defend them.

Jefferson Fisher 27:48 Yeah.

Will Guidara 27:48 But you are also there to walk with them through an unbelievably scary experience.

Jefferson Fisher 27:53 Yeah, absolutely.

Will Guidara 27:54 And remembering that it is much more than pleading a case.

Jefferson Fisher 27:58 Yeah.

Will Guidara 27:59 It's actually like defending a human being during some of their darkest moments, and if that is not noble, I don't know what is.

Jefferson Fisher 28:06 Right.

Will Guidara 28:06 But I'm saying I could do that about any industry-

Jefferson Fisher 28:09 Oh, I'm sure

Will Guidara 28:09 ... because I genuinely believe everything matters. It's just about how you look at your world and how you celebrate the impact you can make.

Jefferson Fisher 28:17 Before we continue, I want to take a moment to talk to you about Our Place. Got a question for you. When's the last time you thought about what you're cooking with? In other words, the pan itself. Are you still using that pan from college? Well, let me tell you, you can upgrade. We love, at our house, in our kitchen, Our Place. They have this four-piece cookware set where it's like two, they call Always Pans and two Perfect Pots, and they're awesome. Let me tell you why they're awesome. Because Saturday mornings is dad breakfast, and what I very much value a pan on is if I can do an egg, put some butter in there or oil and have an egg go perfectly. Well, you can with this Always Pan. It's my number one go-to, aside from the cast iron that we keep in the back, and it's been fantastic. So if you are somebody who also cares about what you cook with, in other words, it's nothing that's like Teflon, PFAs, what they call forever chemicals, something that's clean and you know it's going to do good for you, look no further than Our Place. So stop cooking with toxic cookware and upgrade to Our Place today. You can go to fromourplace.com/jefferson. Use code JEFFERSON for up to ten percent off site-wide. Plus, you get a one hundred-day risk-free trial with free shipping and returns, which is awesome. That's fromourplace.com/jefferson for up to ten percent off, code JEFFERSON. Now, let's keep going. I want to make sure we don't leave it up, me feeling like this, we, we button this up. So when it comes to communicating and people managing in teams-

Will Guidara 29:52 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 29:53 ... one is you need to have, take seriously the, a repeatable cadence of communication with your team.

Will Guidara 29:59 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 29:59 Does it need to be in person or can it be virtual, you think?

Will Guidara 30:01 I think it can be virtual.

Jefferson Fisher 30:03 Okay. It just needs-- Whatever it is, it has to be consistent.

Will Guidara 30:05 And it needs to be, you need to be prepared for it.

Jefferson Fisher 30:08 Is there a certain way that you run the meeting in terms of we're gonna talk about this, this, and this, or is it just kind of top of mind?

Will Guidara 30:15 Well, so the way I always did it, I had notes that-

Jefferson Fisher 30:18 Index cards or?

Will Guidara 30:18 ... every single person on the team would be given a piece of paper.

Jefferson Fisher 30:21 Oh, you give them a note.

Will Guidara 30:22 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 30:23 Okay.

Will Guidara 30:23 And the, the paper was kind of everything, all the stuff I needed to make sure they knew.

Jefferson Fisher 30:27 Okay.

Will Guidara 30:28 Uh, depending on the company and the industry, it's different, right? Like-

Jefferson Fisher 30:32 Yeah

Will Guidara 30:32 ... health insurance enrollment begins on this day. This policy changed. This is a new system we're implementing. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Now they have all the information I needed to communicate literally in their hands.

Jefferson Fisher 30:43 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 30:44 No one can ever say-

Jefferson Fisher 30:45 I didn't give it to you

Will Guidara 30:46 ... I didn't get the email.

Jefferson Fisher 30:47 Yeah.

Will Guidara 30:47 Or I didn't check the portal or whatever.

Jefferson Fisher 30:49 Right. [laughs] Yeah.

Will Guidara 30:49 Like, it's literally in their hands.

Jefferson Fisher 30:51 Uh-huh.

Will Guidara 30:52 If I have a few housekeeping notes, I'll say that at the top, and then I will come in to that meeting prepared in the same way that I am now when I step up on a stage.

Jefferson Fisher 31:04 Right.

Will Guidara 31:05 I'll say, "All right, I wanna tell you guys a story of something that happened to me last week." And da, da, da, da, da, da, da. I'll tell the story. Anyone doing-- Anyone who's ever done public speaking knows stories make ideas stick. And then I'll talk about the lesson that I learned from it. And then we'll talk about it as a group.

Jefferson Fisher 31:23 How do you end it?

Will Guidara 31:24 I would always end with this. The, the way the meeting started would be, it-- What's today? Uh-

Jefferson Fisher 31:30 April Fools'

Will Guidara 31:30 ... Wednesday.

Jefferson Fisher 31:31 Yeah, yeah.

Will Guidara 31:32 So I would always say, "Happy Wednesday." The entire group would say back in unison, "Happy Wednesday."

Jefferson Fisher 31:36 Wednesday, yeah.

Will Guidara 31:36 Just to start it.

Jefferson Fisher 31:37 Yeah.

Will Guidara 31:38 And then at the very end, I would say, "Have a good service." And they'd all say back, "Have a good service."

Jefferson Fisher 31:43 Good service. Okay.

Will Guidara 31:43 Just because I believe in rhythms and rituals-

Jefferson Fisher 31:45 Yeah, yeah. Well-

Will Guidara 31:46 And, and-

Jefferson Fisher 31:46 ... I mean, there's, there's, there's a reason why people will say, turn to the person next to you and say, you know-

Will Guidara 31:53 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 31:53 ... "I believe in this." You know, whatever it is.

Will Guidara 31:54 Hundred percent.

Jefferson Fisher 31:55 When, when the people say it together, there is a feeling of that unison and that team mentality.

Will Guidara 31:58 Well, and also, like, when you watch one of those locker room speeches at halftime-

Jefferson Fisher 32:02 Oh, yeah

Will Guidara 32:02 ... in a movie, and the team comes back and wins the day.

Jefferson Fisher 32:05 Let's go.

Will Guidara 32:05 It's so fired up because at the end-

Jefferson Fisher 32:06 Yeah

Will Guidara 32:06 ... they put their hands in, "Rah."

Jefferson Fisher 32:08 Right. Exactly, yeah.

Will Guidara 32:09 [clears throat]

Jefferson Fisher 32:10 Yeah.

Will Guidara 32:10 I would always say every day is the Super Bowl. Like, every day you walk into service, you need to take it seriously as the biggest game of your life. Otherwise, there's people you're serving, that might be the only time they ever come into the restaurant.

Jefferson Fisher 32:21 Yeah.

Will Guidara 32:22 So you better take it seriously for them.

Jefferson Fisher 32:24 Yeah.

Will Guidara 32:24 And there's something beautiful about team sports, and I think, um, it's remarkable to me how many leaders played team sports in high school and college and yet don't take some of the lessons they learned from team sports-

Jefferson Fisher 32:36 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 32:36 ... into how they lead a team.

Jefferson Fisher 32:38 I can see that. I think, it-- I, I more and more believe that managing people is a very particular skill. It is a skill that can be learned, but it is not easily taught. Like, it's not something that without kind of being plugged into a system where you get shown how to do it-

Will Guidara 32:58 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 32:58 ... it's, it can feel kind of like you're in a lost place. Like, I hear you saying, "Okay, I have a, I have a way that I start. I have a way that I end." Whatever industry, you create it how you wanna create it.

Will Guidara 33:09 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 33:09 Say what you wanna say.

Will Guidara 33:10 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 33:11 Be as goofy and as you and genuine as you want to be.

Will Guidara 33:15 Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 33:15 But you, there's some things that you're gonna have to hit, and I love that you go, "I'm giving you the information that I already know in black and white you gotta have, to have. Two, I get to talk of what's on my heart and put it in a story."

Will Guidara 33:27 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 33:27 'Cause everybody's got stories because we all live, and you can just say what you did yesterday. But relate that to the point that you're wanting to hit home, whether it's something that is specific to a special moment or a way that they have created impact.

Will Guidara 33:40 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 33:40 And so I think even if a company were to pull up their latest Google review and read it to their team-

Will Guidara 33:48 Oh my gosh

Jefferson Fisher 33:48 ... like, you know what I mean? Just to go, just as a reminder, that person you touched is, this is how this is-

Will Guidara 33:53 But, like, and also, like, finding and seizing and talking about inspiration is a practice.

Jefferson Fisher 33:59 Mm.

Will Guidara 33:59 It's a muscle that you strengthen. You don't need it right away. Like in the beginning, "Hey, I was listening to Jefferson's podcast yesterday, and he said this, and it stuck with me."

Jefferson Fisher 34:08 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 34:09 "And I wanna share it with all of you. Tell me, uh, how you react to it."

Jefferson Fisher 34:13 Right.

Will Guidara 34:14 Yeah, that's a great premial.

Jefferson Fisher 34:15 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 34:16 'Cause now you're actually flexing your brain, and when you think together and dream together and create together, it brings people closer.

Jefferson Fisher 34:21 Yeah.

Will Guidara 34:22 The other thing I would always do, I worked Monday through Friday.

Jefferson Fisher 34:26 Okay.

Will Guidara 34:26 Very, very long days. We're still open on the weekends.

Jefferson Fisher 34:29 Now, what's, what's a long day?

Will Guidara 34:31 Nine AM to midnight.

Jefferson Fisher 34:33 Okay. Yeah, that's a long day. [laughs]

Will Guidara 34:34 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 34:35 Yeah, that would count.

Will Guidara 34:35 Yeah. For a long, long time.

Jefferson Fisher 34:36 Right. Sure.

Will Guidara 34:38 Um, on Saturday, when you got the schedule-

Jefferson Fisher 34:41 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 34:41 ... there would be a star next to one person every Saturday, which meant you're running premial.

Jefferson Fisher 34:48 Oh.

Will Guidara 34:49 And that gave them a heads-up because I do believe public speaking is a leadership skill.

Jefferson Fisher 34:53 Yeah.

Will Guidara 34:54 And also, once you've delivered that speech and you know how hard it is to do it well, you're gonna be one of the most attentive people next time-

Jefferson Fisher 35:04 Yeah

Will Guidara 35:04 ... you're on the receiving end of it.

Jefferson Fisher 35:06 Right. Right.

Will Guidara 35:07 And so the more you can push people outside of their comfort zone and have them actually lead, the more ready they are to become leaders when their days arrive.

Jefferson Fisher 35:12 Oh, I love that. So actually changing who gets-

Will Guidara 35:15 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 35:15 ... to lead it.

Will Guidara 35:16 Exactly.

Jefferson Fisher 35:16 Like, whoever's doing it, and you're getting to change every single time. Man, I, I think that's a great, um, idea for people to have for every team meeting that they have. Somebody else run it.

Will Guidara 35:27 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 35:27 'Cause then, then you all share in both the privilege and the horror-

Will Guidara 35:33 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 35:33 ... and, uh, you know, and the anxiety of-

Will Guidara 35:36 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 35:37 ... leading it. A-and, and then it doesn't go, "Oh, great. Okay, we got Greg again reading, you know, l-leading meeting here." It's, "Oh, okay. It's Lisa's turn." Oh, it's a different f- a breath of air, you know? It's always changed.

Will Guidara 35:49 And then also, there's always that quiet person on the team.

Jefferson Fisher 35:51 Yeah.

Will Guidara 35:52 And sometimes they will stand up in front of the team and just stun people.

Jefferson Fisher 35:56 Knock their socks off.

Will Guidara 35:57 And then the confidence, like anyone you've ever seen that steps up on stage for the first time-

Jefferson Fisher 36:02 Yeah

Will Guidara 36:03 ... and is celebrated for the work they did-

Jefferson Fisher 36:06 Right

Will Guidara 36:06 ... it changes their confidence level.

Jefferson Fisher 36:08 Yeah.

Will Guidara 36:09 And that confidence spills over into everything they do.

Jefferson Fisher 36:11 Right. I think that's sometimes the beauty of, like, inside jokes.

Will Guidara 36:15 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 36:16 You know? Uh, because it's something that we share.

Will Guidara 36:19 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 36:20 And because we can kinda riff off each other and have that level of bond.

Will Guidara 36:27 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 36:27 Like, if it's two people, w-whether it's, you know, they're look- working on, uh, what is it, the cold line or whatever, and they're like behind the-

Will Guidara 36:35 Yes. Yes

Jefferson Fisher 36:35 ... you get what I mean? And they're, or they're prepping for the day. Like, just to have that sense of... You have to find ways to make the mundane fun.

Will Guidara 36:44 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 36:45 And sometimes that ... to me is the same thing we do in conversation. Like we have mundane conversations-

Will Guidara 36:51 Well, an inside joke makes you feel like an insider.

Jefferson Fisher 36:53 Yeah.

Will Guidara 36:53 And that's what we all want. We all wanna feel like we're a part-

Jefferson Fisher 36:55 Included

Will Guidara 36:56 ... of something.

Jefferson Fisher 36:57 Yeah.

Will Guidara 36:57 And the fewer people that are a part of it, the more special it feels to be a part of it.

Jefferson Fisher 37:01 Right.

Will Guidara 37:02 Like, that's why I love creating words within an organization.

Jefferson Fisher 37:06 Mm.

Will Guidara 37:06 Like Dan- or isms.

Jefferson Fisher 37:07 Yeah.

Will Guidara 37:08 Like charitable assumption or we used to have all these little... Like if you-- Let's say if I still had a restaurant, now we've become friends.

Jefferson Fisher 37:16 Yeah.

Will Guidara 37:16 You come into the restaurant, I'm not there. I'm just gonna send a text, uh, Jefferson Fisher dash table forty-two dash crush him.

Jefferson Fisher 37:23 Yeah. [laughs]

Will Guidara 37:25 And would that mean-

Jefferson Fisher 37:25 Yeah

Will Guidara 37:25 ... everyone on my team would know what that means.

Jefferson Fisher 37:27 Yeah.

Will Guidara 37:27 Which means, like, there's seventeen different things we can do to elevate someone's experience, do as many of them as feels natural to what, what he's doing there tonight.

Jefferson Fisher 37:34 Crush him.

Will Guidara 37:35 Crush him.

Jefferson Fisher 37:36 I love that. [laughs]

Will Guidara 37:36 And if I were to say that to someone else, they wouldn't even know what I was talking about.

Jefferson Fisher 37:39 Yeah.

Will Guidara 37:39 But to my team, it's clear.

Jefferson Fisher 37:42 Th-th-they said that right there is gonna have to be a special experience for whoever is there that night at the table.

Will Guidara 37:48 Or another one, this is actually feels like it fits into, to your work. Um, DBC-

Jefferson Fisher 37:54 Okay

Will Guidara 37:54 ... was another one of our isms, which isn't... Listen, no matter what you do, restaurants are an extreme version of this high-paced-

Jefferson Fisher 38:01 Yeah

Will Guidara 38:03 ... you know, v- chaotic environments.

Jefferson Fisher 38:06 It's, it was mad.

Will Guidara 38:07 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 38:07 It really was.

Will Guidara 38:07 People can get into the weeds. Then they-

Jefferson Fisher 38:09 Yeah

Will Guidara 38:09 ... when you get into the weeds and you start to get overwhelmed, that's when you start making mistakes.

Jefferson Fisher 38:13 Yeah.

Will Guidara 38:14 And that's when you need someone on your team to tell you to chill out or calm down.

Jefferson Fisher 38:19 Right.

Will Guidara 38:19 And yet, have you ever told someone who is overwhelmed-

Jefferson Fisher 38:23 [laughs]

Will Guidara 38:23 ... to chill out-

Jefferson Fisher 38:24 Yeah

Will Guidara 38:24 ... or calm down and had it achieve the desired effect?

Jefferson Fisher 38:27 Never. Never.

Will Guidara 38:29 So DBC, one of my best friends, his name is Andrew Tepper, he and I went to preschool together. He's still one of my best friends.

Jefferson Fisher 38:36 Okay. Okay.

Will Guidara 38:37 He, um, he got a graduate degree in social work, and he does a lot of amazing-

Jefferson Fisher 38:43 Okay

Will Guidara 38:44 ... work with kids, and he was working at a psychiatric hospital where there's a lot of kids there. And he felt like the therapists were just over-prescribing sedatives-

Jefferson Fisher 38:54 Mm

Will Guidara 38:55 ... when kids were having difficult times. So he went to his parents' basement, where they still had silk screening equipment from when he was a kid, and he designed these really cool T-shirts that just said in block letters DBC, which meant the Deep Breathing Club. And he wore one of them to the hospital, and all the kids were like, "Dude, that's such a cool T-shirt." He goes, "Do you want one?" And they're like, "Yeah." And he goes, "Here's how you get one."

Jefferson Fisher 39:19 Here's how you get one. I love it.

Will Guidara 39:20 And all they had to do was overcome a potential meltdown three times in a row through deep breathing and deep breathing alone.

Jefferson Fisher 39:27 Okay.

Will Guidara 39:29 Six months later, half of the kids in the hospital were wearing DBC shirts, and the amount of sedatives being prescribed had dropped dramatically. So-

Jefferson Fisher 39:37 Deep Breathing Club

Will Guidara 39:38 ... I brought him to the restaurant. I had him lead pre-meal a bunch of times over the course of a month, and I said to the team, I was like, "Guys, sometimes people here lose their cool. They need to be told to calm down. They need to be told to chill out, and yet we all know that never feels good. So we're just replacing the words. Now it's DBC."

Jefferson Fisher 39:58 I love it.

Will Guidara 39:58 And so literally every night, someone would just walk over to someone else and just whisper it in their ears like, "Hey, DBC, I got you. What can I do?"

Jefferson Fisher 40:05 I love that.

Will Guidara 40:06 And the simple change... Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 40:09 Yeah, but, like, but also having somebody come alongside you-

Will Guidara 40:13 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 40:13 ... and be like, "Hey, I got you. I got your back. I've been there." Because in-- when you're back of house-

Will Guidara 40:18 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 40:18 ... and you have that chef or the per-

Will Guidara 40:21 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 40:21 And then there's like, it's just like The Bear, right?

Will Guidara 40:23 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 40:24 It's like you have people yelling and, like... And you realize in that moment, they're just stressed out.

Will Guidara 40:29 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 40:29 That's not who they are.

Will Guidara 40:30 They're, and their energy is impacting you negatively as opposed to your energy impacting them positively.

Jefferson Fisher 40:34 Exactly. You know, you worry about this, I'll worry about... And it gets into that. I wanna, I wanna know a little bit. So you co-produce FX, The, The Bear.

Will Guidara 40:44 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 40:45 Which is just the wildest thing.

Will Guidara 40:46 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 40:46 Again, I'm not a very often a jealous guy, but you-- the creativity projects that you're in-

Will Guidara 40:51 Oh, man. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 40:52 I'm like, "God, that's so cool." All right. So, uh, first I wanna know, you know, when you... How do you get involved in this project, and then how did you make sure that what is on film... I know there's other writers and a, a whole cast of amazing-

Will Guidara 41:08 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 41:09 ... people that are helping bring this to life. Make sure that it reflects exactly kind of what was going on and what you've seen in your whole experience-

Will Guidara 41:16 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 41:16 ... in Eleven Madison Park and everything else.

Will Guidara 41:18 Well, so, so how I got inv- I was not involved with The Bear from day one.

Jefferson Fisher 41:21 Right.

Will Guidara 41:22 Um, I got to know Chris Storer, who's the creator of The Bear. Awesome, awesome guy.

Jefferson Fisher 41:28 That's cool.

Will Guidara 41:29 Unbelievably creative, and by the way, one of the most remarkable leaders. Like, m- the way that every single person, regardless of position on that show, is treated and how they all feel such a genuine sense of ownership in the product as a whole.

Jefferson Fisher 41:45 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 41:46 And I wanna share one thing they did in a moment to, to reinforce that. But-

Jefferson Fisher 41:50 Yeah

Will Guidara 41:51 ... they did the first season. All of a sudden it's a hit. At this point, I'd gotten to know him a little bit, and he came to the release party for Unreasonable Hospitality, like the dinner that I had when the book first came out. Then season two is about like three months from coming out, and he emails me, and they were doing all the editing in, in Brooklyn. [clears throat] He's like, "Hey, can you come out to our offices some point in the next couple weeks? I wanna show you something." I was like, "Yeah." So I go out, and they show me episode seven of season two. It's called Forks.

Jefferson Fisher 42:20 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 42:21 And the entire episode is effectively right out of my book.

Jefferson Fisher 42:25 Okay.

Will Guidara 42:26 And it's this beautiful episode, literally lines of sc- of text. L- like, there's things in the script that are verbatim what was in the book, and this whole story... Uh, m- my book has a famous story about a hot dog, and it's reimagined as a deep dish pizza in the episode.

Jefferson Fisher 42:42 Yeah. I want you to tell them, tell them real quick the, the hot dog-

Will Guidara 42:45 The hot dog story?

Jefferson Fisher 42:45 Yes. I want-- They need, they need to hear it. It's too, it's too good.

Will Guidara 42:48 So the [laughs] so the hot dog story It's one of the stickiest out of the book.

Jefferson Fisher 42:54 Yeah.

Will Guidara 42:54 And by the way, it, it's an example of why stories make ideas stick.

Jefferson Fisher 43:00 Yeah.

Will Guidara 43:02 That happened with me in the restaurant as we were really trying to figure out what unreasonable hospitality meant.

Jefferson Fisher 43:09 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 43:09 I'd written it down because I knew there was something in that approach but didn't yet understand how it would be brought to life.

Jefferson Fisher 43:18 Meaning you wrote the words down-

Will Guidara 43:20 I wrote the words down

Jefferson Fisher 43:21 ... the phrase hospitality.

Will Guidara 43:21 I want to be unreasonable in pursuit of hospitality. Great.

Jefferson Fisher 43:25 And you have-- And you're managing Eleven Park-- uh, Madison Park at the time.

Will Guidara 43:29 Yeah, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 43:30 Okay. Which for anybody who doesn't know, is just the most amazing restaurant in the world.

Will Guidara 43:34 And it was already... Like, at that point, we had three Michelin stars. We had all the stars.

Jefferson Fisher 43:37 Correct.

Will Guidara 43:37 But I wanted to be the best.

Jefferson Fisher 43:39 Which is-- That's mind-blowing.

Will Guidara 43:40 That was... Thank you. Thank you.

Jefferson Fisher 43:41 That's mind-blowing. And what? You were like top twenty, something like that already?

Will Guidara 43:44 Well, no, I wrote those words down when we came in fiftieth-

Jefferson Fisher 43:47 That's right, fiftieth

Will Guidara 43:47 ... of the fifty best.

Jefferson Fisher 43:48 Yeah. Okay. Which is still, like-

Will Guidara 43:50 It's still... But that's just not how I'm wired.

Jefferson Fisher 43:51 And you were like, "Not good enough."

Will Guidara 43:52 In, in that room, I was last place.

Jefferson Fisher 43:53 Okay. Yeah.

Will Guidara 43:55 Anyway, one day I'm in the dining room on a busier than normal lunch service. The team is in the weeds. And so I was doing what I would always do when I was helping out the team. I was just clearing dirty plates.

Jefferson Fisher 44:07 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 44:08 Uh, mostly because my dad, one of the lessons he taught me when I was coming up, he goes, "Hey, the further up in the hierarchy you find yourself, when you choose to help, just do the most menial thing as often as you can because it's a great way to communicate to your team-

Jefferson Fisher 44:24 Yeah

Will Guidara 44:24 ... that you're never gonna ask them to do something you are either unwilling or incapable of doing yourself." It's a great way to show your fire as a leader.

Jefferson Fisher 44:30 I love that. So where... As... Meaning the higher up you go in the hierarchy-

Will Guidara 44:34 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 44:35 ... if it is as simple as gathering up a trash can and rolling up and tying up the bag-

Will Guidara 44:41 Just do it

Jefferson Fisher 44:42 ... like, you need to show the signal that you're not above anything.

Will Guidara 44:45 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 44:45 Yeah.

Will Guidara 44:45 And you can also do it.

Jefferson Fisher 44:48 Ex-exactly. You're not gonna ask them to do anything-

Will Guidara 44:49 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 44:49 ... that you can't do.

Will Guidara 44:49 Like, "Hey, I'm not above it, and I can actually do it pretty well."

Jefferson Fisher 44:53 Yeah.

Will Guidara 44:54 As I was clearing appetizers, and it was this table of four. They were foodies, like Europeans on vacation to New York, but just to eat at restaurants.

Jefferson Fisher 45:02 Okay.

Will Guidara 45:03 And this was their last meal. They were headed straight to the airport from the restaurant to go back home.

Jefferson Fisher 45:07 Okay.

Will Guidara 45:07 And while I was there, I overheard them talking, and they were just raving about their trip. They'd been to all the fancy French four-star restaurants and now Eleven Madison. But then one woman at the table jumped in, and she said, "Yeah, but we never got to have a New York City hot dog." And it was just one of those light bulb moments from a cartoon. I went into the kitchen, dropped off the plates, ran outside to the hotdog cart, bought a hotdog, ran back inside. Then came the hard part, convincing my fancy chef to actually serve it in our fancy restaurant.

Jefferson Fisher 45:37 Yeah.

Will Guidara 45:38 But I asked him to trust me. Even more so, I told him it was important to me.

Jefferson Fisher 45:44 Yeah.

Will Guidara 45:44 That, that is another articulation we'd use a lot. "This is important to me."

Jefferson Fisher 45:50 Hmm.

Will Guidara 45:50 Um-

Jefferson Fisher 45:50 I wanna make sure I set that aside. That's... That is a big deal, like even in relationships.

Will Guidara 45:54 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 45:55 "This is important to me." Saying those words-

Will Guidara 45:57 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 45:58 ... is a different higher caliber of communication.

Will Guidara 46:01 Yeah. And so we can come back-

Jefferson Fisher 46:02 Yeah

Will Guidara 46:02 ... to that in a little bit.

Jefferson Fisher 46:03 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 46:03 And eventually, he cut the hotdog up into four perfect pieces, put one on each of the plates, added a little swish of ketchup, one of mustard, a little scoop of sauerkraut, one of relish, topped it off with a micro herb to make it look fancy-

Jefferson Fisher 46:14 Yeah. [laughs]

Will Guidara 46:14 ... enough. And, and then before their final savory course, which at the time was our honey lavender glazed Muscovy duck that had been dry aged for two weeks-

Jefferson Fisher 46:24 As one eats

Will Guidara 46:24 ... as one-

Jefferson Fisher 46:25 Yeah

Will Guidara 46:25 ... as one eats for lunch-

Jefferson Fisher 46:26 For sure

Will Guidara 46:26 ... on a Wednesday.

Jefferson Fisher 46:26 I ate one yesterday. Great. [laughs]

Will Guidara 46:28 I brought out what we in New York call a dirty water dog.

Jefferson Fisher 46:31 Okay.

Will Guidara 46:31 And I explained, I said, "Hey, I overheard you talking. I didn't want you to go home with any regrets. Here's that New York City hotdog." And dude, they freaked out.

Jefferson Fisher 46:39 Did they just lose it?

Will Guidara 46:40 I mean, at that point, I'd served, mm, really fancy food, tens of millions of dollars worth of it at some of the best restaurants in the country.

Jefferson Fisher 46:49 Yeah.

Will Guidara 46:49 I had never seen anyone react to anything I'd served them.

Jefferson Fisher 46:52 You serve like the highest quality of beef-

Will Guidara 46:54 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 46:54 ... seafood, the top of the top of the top, and here you give-

Will Guidara 46:58 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 46:58 ... a New York just off the street hotdog, and he just loses his mind.

Will Guidara 47:02 Yeah. And you know, and, and it, it's in those moments, in so many businesses, every single day, someone does something spontaneously that is brilliant.

Jefferson Fisher 47:13 Mm.

Will Guidara 47:15 That's not what defines the company, though. What defines them is if they identify that something great just happened, and they slow down for long enough to figure out why it just happened, so they can put intention to the intuition.

Jefferson Fisher 47:28 Yeah.

Will Guidara 47:29 And it was, it was a few simple things. It required being present. I wasn't-

Jefferson Fisher 47:34 Just listening.

Will Guidara 47:35 Yeah. It-

Jefferson Fisher 47:36 Yeah.

Will Guidara 47:37 I wasn't looking at what I needed to do next. I was just so fully focused on that table that I stopped caring about everything else, and that's why I was able to pick up on the line. Second, it required... Yeah, obviously, we took what we did seriously.

Jefferson Fisher 47:50 Yeah.

Will Guidara 47:51 But as a rule, I've never taken myself that seriously.

Jefferson Fisher 47:54 Mm.

Will Guidara 47:55 And I think far too many people in life or companies in business, we're so focused on perfecting brands that we are not focused enough on just pursuing people. We end up with these self-imposed standards that effectively disrupt our ability to give other people joy.

Jefferson Fisher 48:12 Yeah.

Will Guidara 48:12 A hotdog is not on brand in a four-star restaurant.

Jefferson Fisher 48:15 No.

Will Guidara 48:15 But who cares when you look at how it made them feel?

Jefferson Fisher 48:17 Right.

Will Guidara 48:18 And then, and then third, like this idea that hospitality is just making other people feel seen, and the best way to do it is not to treat people like a commodity.

Jefferson Fisher 48:31 Mm.

Will Guidara 48:32 One size fits all will only ever take you so far. It's the same reason why at Christmas I don't buy everyone in my family the same present. I buy people individual presents based on who they are.

Jefferson Fisher 48:45 I imagine buying your wife the same present you did last year.

Will Guidara 48:47 Right. [laughing]

Jefferson Fisher 48:51 It's like, you liked that shit.

Will Guidara 48:52 Yeah. Honestly, I looked at your facial expression before-

Jefferson Fisher 48:54 Yeah. Yeah

Will Guidara 48:54 ... and it really seemed like it worked and-

Jefferson Fisher 48:56 Thought I'd get it for you again.

Will Guidara 48:57 [laughing]

Jefferson Fisher 48:58 Yeah.

Will Guidara 48:59 Um, but in Unreasonable Hospitality, one size fits one

Jefferson Fisher 49:02 Mm. One size fits one

Will Guidara 49:05 And so those three things, be present, stop taking yourself so seriously, one size fits one, and that hotdog-

Jefferson Fisher 49:10 Yeah

Will Guidara 49:10 ... changed everything for us.

Jefferson Fisher 49:12 And what you do so well in the, in the book, and the book is full, it, of these examples where you go... You could have just heard the conversation and go, "Ah, kind of blows for that guy. Didn't get a hotdog."

Will Guidara 49:24 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 49:24 "Okay, next, next table." Instead you said, "What if?" Right? And, and built off that.

Will Guidara 49:29 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 49:29 And then you hired somebody specifically for creating these magical moments.

Will Guidara 49:33 Someone there as a resource to help everyone-

Jefferson Fisher 49:35 Yes

Will Guidara 49:36 ... create them.

Jefferson Fisher 49:37 Yeah.

Will Guidara 49:37 Because I think what's important is everyone on the team needs to be empowered to come up with these ideas. You just need to make it easy for them to deploy those ideas.

Jefferson Fisher 49:48 They have them.

Will Guidara 49:49 Yeah. And by the way, I mean, it happens to us all the time in life. How many times have you seen something or thought like, "Man, that would be really cool to do for this person. Gosh, I'm too busy."

Jefferson Fisher 50:00 Yeah.

Will Guidara 50:01 And we hired a person onto the team just so all you had to do was say, "Hey, Emily, can you do this?" And she would make it happen.

Jefferson Fisher 50:08 I'll say, my habit is I'll say, "Once this is done, then I will." Like-

Will Guidara 50:17 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 50:17 ... it's easy to go, "This is just a really crazy week, but after this I'll be able to get to that." And then it's funny how there's always another.

Will Guidara 50:24 Do you know, I was in a, uh, I did a talk, and in the, the meet and greet afterwards, a guy came up. He's like, "You know, we have this expression in my family, and your speech really made me think of it. Never let a gracious impulse pass."

Jefferson Fisher 50:40 Mm.

Will Guidara 50:40 And gosh, I love that.

Jefferson Fisher 50:42 That's, that's some good stuff.

Will Guidara 50:44 Because how many times do you have them? And when you have them, the whole idea is just do it.

Jefferson Fisher 50:48 Yeah.

Will Guidara 50:48 And I was literally at the, the Goodwill that weekend with my, with my kids.

Jefferson Fisher 50:53 Yeah.

Will Guidara 50:53 We call it the treasure store.

Jefferson Fisher 50:54 The treasure store. It's pretty apt too.

Will Guidara 50:57 And basically every so often, we call it treasure store day.

Jefferson Fisher 51:01 Yeah.

Will Guidara 51:02 We have to go up into the room and we take 10 things, and we go give them to the Goodwill, and then they can buy one thing from the Goodwill.

Jefferson Fisher 51:09 Yeah.

Will Guidara 51:09 Um, and Andrew, the guy, the DBC guy, when we were growing up, he loved the band Sublime.

Jefferson Fisher 51:17 Oh, nice.

Will Guidara 51:17 And he would literally like busk on the streets-

Jefferson Fisher 51:19 Yeah, yeah

Will Guidara 51:19 ... playing Sublime songs. And we're in the treasure store, and I see a Sublime T-shirt in his size, uh, as we're walk-- like an old school Sublime T-shirt. And I just heard this guy say, "Never let a gracious impulse pass." If I'm being honest, like a version of me would've seen that and been like, "Man, Andy would like that. Then I gotta buy it, and then I gotta put it in a box and go to the thing." And I would've just walked right past it. But this time I was like, "No, I had a gracious impulse. I can't let it pass."

Jefferson Fisher 51:47 Yeah.

Will Guidara 51:47 I took it off the thing and sent it to him, and he was like, "Dude, that was the coolest gift."

Jefferson Fisher 51:52 Isn't that awesome?

Will Guidara 51:53 It took all of 15 minutes and probably $2.

Jefferson Fisher 51:56 Just to have that.

Will Guidara 51:57 But just do it. When you have a gracious impulse, do it.

Jefferson Fisher 52:00 So recognizing those, those gracious impulses, not just in relationship, but also in your own business of the way that you can-

Will Guidara 52:08 Business and life, yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 52:10 I think when you... Again, in the book, to me it's like if you ever wonder which one's Will's in the store, just look for the brightest yellow one.

Will Guidara 52:20 The yellow one. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 52:22 That's the one, dude. That's the one. That, that's the one to get. You need to go get it. It's-

Will Guidara 52:25 [laughs] Just get the really bright yellow one.

Jefferson Fisher 52:27 Yeah, just whatever.

Will Guidara 52:28 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 52:29 Uh, by the way, have you-- I would assume you'd love this. I would assume you know him. I don't know him. Maybe one day. Of the guy who started the Savannah Bananas.

Will Guidara 52:39 Oh, yeah, Jesse Cole.

Jefferson Fisher 52:40 Yes. Okay, also yellow.

Will Guidara 52:43 He is amazing, by the way.

Jefferson Fisher 52:44 But, but I mean, like, that's like right up your kind of stuff.

Will Guidara 52:47 He spoke at my conference-

Jefferson Fisher 52:48 Did he? Oh

Will Guidara 52:48 ... in New York last year.

Jefferson Fisher 52:49 Okay, well, then there you go.

Will Guidara 52:51 And-

Jefferson Fisher 52:51 I see a lot of like parallels with just-

Will Guidara 52:54 And their work is very, very similar to ours. Just three Michelin star restaurant and a minor league baseball team and how they kind of came closer to one another.

Jefferson Fisher 53:04 Yeah. And I think that's, that's just one of the many examples in which any business, I think, can do this. And I know y'all train a lot of these-

Will Guidara 53:13 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 53:13 ... businesses where you go out, a lot of service industry-

Will Guidara 53:16 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 53:16 ... folks of how can you... 'Cause they need a little bit of help. They need a little bit, bit of push.

Will Guidara 53:21 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 53:21 They'd be like, "I-- We just need to get some of that unreasonable hospitality."

Will Guidara 53:26 Just get a little bit of that.

Jefferson Fisher 53:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This reminds me of, uh, my dad and I love O Brother, Where Art Thou? 'cause it's just so quotable.

Will Guidara 53:32 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 53:33 And he goes, "We need to get some of that reform."

Will Guidara 53:36 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 53:36 And so it's like, 'cause there's the other guy's a reform candidate, and they're like, "Maybe we need to get us a little reform." So that's-

Will Guidara 53:42 You know.

Jefferson Fisher 53:43 Sometimes you just, you need that push because sometimes you need somebody on the outside-

Will Guidara 53:48 For sure

Jefferson Fisher 53:48 ... looking in.

Will Guidara 53:49 Well, and it's just easier. You see things with fresh eyes.

Jefferson Fisher 53:51 Before we keep going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Upwork. You grow, you and your business grow not by doing more things, but by doing the right things and letting go of the rest. And I know what I struggle with sometimes in several businesses that I've begun is that delegation is a problem, because I would rather sometimes spend way too long, too many hours trying to look up how to do something or work some other platform when I could have just gone to Upwork. Upwork has a selection of seriously some of the best freelancers out there for everything you could possibly want to do. I'm talking about da- data and analytics, software and development, marketing, business operations, people who want to do a logo or video editing or help with a brand, you name it. They're all there. And so what's so great is that instead of spending weeks of trying to research something, Upwork already has them. It has a full profile. You can see all the work they've done. You can see their portfolios for things. I've hired people from Upwork, and I have not been disappointed. So if you want the best of the best, Upwork's Business Plus gives you access to the top 1% of talent with AI-powered matching that connects you with the right freelancer in under six hours. That's pretty incredible. It also handles contracts and payments all in one place, which means less admin for you, which means happier life for you as well. So thousands of businesses are already using Upwork to scale smarter. It's free to sign up, and posting a job is simple. Visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That's upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's U-P-W-O-R-K.com, upwork.com. Let's keep going.

Will Guidara 55:30 But so, okay, back to The Bear.

Jefferson Fisher 55:31 Yeah. [laughs]

Will Guidara 55:32 They ask me to go out there, and they show me this episode.

Jefferson Fisher 55:35 Okay.

Will Guidara 55:36 And literally at one point, the guy is walking, holding my book and reading it, like, voraciously in the episode. And they're like, "Is this cool?" Effectively, they asked me to go out there to say, "Is this cool that we used a lot-"

Jefferson Fisher 55:48 Is this all right?

Will Guidara 55:48 "... of stuff from your book?" And I was like, "Well, yeah, obviously it's cool. It's beyond cool. I'm so flattered."

Jefferson Fisher 55:54 Yeah.

Will Guidara 55:54 "This is amazing."

Jefferson Fisher 55:55 Yeah.

Will Guidara 55:55 Like, my book is now in one of the hottest television shows in America.

Jefferson Fisher 55:58 Yeah.

Will Guidara 56:00 And that's when they were going from the little beef stand, and they were about to open a proper restaurant.

Jefferson Fisher 56:04 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 56:05 And in the same meeting, they're like, "Also, can you join the team and be a writer and a producer as we move into this next season?" I was like, "Well, heck yeah."

Jefferson Fisher 56:14 Dude.

Will Guidara 56:15 You know those moments where-

Jefferson Fisher 56:16 What if-

Will Guidara 56:16 I'm like, I don't know-

Jefferson Fisher 56:17 Am I-

Will Guidara 56:17 ... how much you're paying me. I don't care.

Jefferson Fisher 56:19 Am I alive right now?

Will Guidara 56:19 The answer is yes.

Jefferson Fisher 56:21 Yeah. Am I awake?

Will Guidara 56:22 And man, it is so fun. Y-y-your question was how did I ensure that things were actually real?

Jefferson Fisher 56:28 Yeah.

Will Guidara 56:29 And it's television, so it's all dramatized a little bit.

Jefferson Fisher 56:32 Yeah, but it's, I, I mean-

Will Guidara 56:33 But it's very real

Jefferson Fisher 56:33 ... it's about as close as it can get to what it really is.

Will Guidara 56:36 And, and I think it circles back to the culture on that show.

Jefferson Fisher 56:40 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 56:40 Like, I mean, some of the actors on that show are now-

Jefferson Fisher 56:45 Phenomenal

Will Guidara 56:46 ... not only phenomenal, but also really famous.

Jefferson Fisher 56:50 [laughs] Yeah. That too.

Will Guidara 56:52 Right? And when people get really famous, oftentimes they stop being as good at listening, or they don't necessarily feel the need to learn as much. No one on that cast is like that.

Jefferson Fisher 57:06 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 57:07 Um, I mean, there is one episode, one of season three, Carmy, the chef, picks up a tray to bus a table in the morning. And I was like, "Are you cool if I show you the right way to do that?" And he's like, "Yes, please." Something that simple.

Jefferson Fisher 57:29 Yeah.

Will Guidara 57:29 He just wanted to know what right looked like, because if you've been in the restaurant business like he, like his character had been, you would know-

Jefferson Fisher 57:36 The right

Will Guidara 57:36 ... the right way to do it or how to expo, like I did expo classes or-

Jefferson Fisher 57:41 That's cool.

Will Guidara 57:41 Um, I mean, the most fun thing is I basically got to design a restaurant and never have to run it. You know, like-

Jefferson Fisher 57:47 Yeah

Will Guidara 57:47 ... the plates and the florals and-

Jefferson Fisher 57:50 Yeah

Will Guidara 57:50 ... there's all these stories within the story that most people would never even notice.

Jefferson Fisher 57:53 Yeah.

Will Guidara 57:53 But-

Jefferson Fisher 57:53 But I mean, how cool is that? You just get to kind of live in that, that creativity. So I, I wanna make sure that I, I don't-- you don't leave without me asking some of these is... I mean, I know I could text you, but this is too good. Of when you're thinking, you know, the, the, the hot dog moment or, and all the other stuff in your book. I love the one with the s- the sled-

Will Guidara 58:16 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 58:16 ... of like all these others, is what made the difference is you led and empowered your team by example to listen.

Will Guidara 58:28 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 58:28 None of that happens without having the specific and right ear for it.

Will Guidara 58:33 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 58:33 Because you're not, you're not listening to the conversation. You're listening to the need-

Will Guidara 58:39 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 58:39 ... that is almost unspoken.

Will Guidara 58:41 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 58:41 And so it's not like the guy said, "Man, you know what would be great? If somebody brought me a hot dog."

Will Guidara 58:47 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 58:47 You know what I mean?

Will Guidara 58:48 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 58:48 He didn't say that. He, he just... A-and so you heard the need that wasn't even exactly spoken.

Will Guidara 58:56 A hundred percent.

Jefferson Fisher 58:56 And I feel like in conversation and in teams and with sp- you know, especially with customers, clients, you're having to have the right... to train your ear for the right kind of needs. And so I don't-- How did you do that? What did... Did you teach them to listen for anything?

Will Guidara 59:15 Well, yeah, by the way, I mean, you know this better than anyone. You're listening not just with your ears.

Jefferson Fisher 59:21 Mm.

Will Guidara 59:22 Right? Like I, I think I f- have found that you can teach people how to do something, and you can be like, "Hey, if someone says this, like, just go back in, in the conversation before you even arrived there. Like, where did that thing come from? You might not have heard it, but... And where could it go next?" The sledding.

Jefferson Fisher 59:46 Right.

Will Guidara 59:46 Someone says, "Our kids have never seen snow before."

Jefferson Fisher 59:49 Yeah.

Will Guidara 59:50 Okay, so where does that go next?

Jefferson Fisher 59:52 What could it be? Yeah.

Will Guidara 59:52 What could it be? Like, I think the best experiences are when you dream of the world you wish existed, and then you invite someone else into your imagination.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:03 That's a good one.

Will Guidara 1:00:04 So like, all right, they've never seen snow. These are kids. What do kids love doing in the snow? Sledding. Oh my gosh, let's go buy them sleds right now.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:13 Yeah. These spontaneous moments.

Will Guidara 1:00:16 But then even the things that you don't hear. I mean, the, the, the stories that get celebrated the most out of the book are the more over-the-top ones.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:22 Of course.

Will Guidara 1:00:22 But like, you can tell when someone's on a first date, right? The moment you go over and greet them at the table, like it-

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:31 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 1:00:31 ... it's pretty clear when you've done it long enough.

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:33 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 1:00:34 Um, and you can tell without having to be at the table whether the first date is going really well-

Jefferson Fisher 1:00:41 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 1:00:42 ... or whether they're just struggling to find their groove. You can tell when people are talking to one another a ton or when there's just a bit of awkward silence. Okay, so unreasonable hospitality doesn't mean having to buy a hot dog. It could mean, gosh, this guy is having a hard time getting a conversation going. I'm gonna go hang out with them at the table for a little bit.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:02 Okay.

Will Guidara 1:01:03 And I'm just gonna start talking to them, and I'm gonna try to get them laughing, and I'm gonna try to get them each to put their-

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:08 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:01:08 ... guards down, and then I'm gonna leave, and hopefully I've gotten them up to enough of a momentum-

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:12 Okay, I love this. Okay, I love this. So that's-- What this is-- My brain's going, is it's, it's not just listening with your ears. It's also listening with your eyes.

Will Guidara 1:01:23 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:24 Whereas every time with a customer or a coworker or somebody coming into your restaurant or somebody you're in a relationship with, it's listening with your eyes. How are they reacting?

Will Guidara 1:01:35 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:35 And so you have the privilege in a restaurant when you see some of the most intimate moments, you go, "This date's not going well." Or somebody is fighting, you can tell it's tense.

Will Guidara 1:01:44 Yes. [chuckles]

Jefferson Fisher 1:01:44 And y- they're having a hard time in their marriage, maybe. Or, uh, two guys who are talking about a business deal or something, and just for that brief moment, the, the staff is able to kind of-- the, the waiter, the waitress are able to kind of be able to curate something to say, "Let me listen with my eyes here."

Will Guidara 1:02:05 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:05 "What else is--" Read the room.

Will Guidara 1:02:06 Although sometimes, like, hmm, based on what's happening over there, maybe I should just stay away.

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:11 [chuckles] Yeah, that too.

Will Guidara 1:02:13 Like, they're having a really good conver-- How many times have you been halfway through a story at a restaurant and someone comes over and says, "How's it going?" And you're like-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:19 And you're like, "Can you just leave me alone right now?"

Will Guidara 1:02:21 I just, I just-

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:21 Like, you just ruined the punchline. [laughs]

Will Guidara 1:02:23 Right. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:24 Yeah. The, the worst is, like, when you're in serious conversation-

Will Guidara 1:02:27 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:27 ... and some cheery-

Will Guidara 1:02:29 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:29 ... young guy comes in and he's like-

Will Guidara 1:02:30 And you're having, like, a fight with your wife at the table. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:31 ... "Hey, would you like the catfish?" And you're like, "My man, I'm-- Can you not see that, like, we're hanging on by a thread right here?"

Will Guidara 1:02:36 We're, we're barely holding on. [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:40 Yeah. [laughs] No, just, no. I don't, I don't need a refill. You're good. I...

Will Guidara 1:02:44 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:02:44 Yeah. There's, there's those moments too, but it's like when you, when you can also lis- uh, like, listen with your eyes and see the reactions of other people and how does that translate to when you see that person who is running five minutes late and they look frantic or they look hurt or there's things going on you can tell beneath that surface.

Will Guidara 1:03:03 Yeah. Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:03 It's, it's, uh, not just going, "Well, you didn't say anything," but you saw it.

Will Guidara 1:03:08 I mean, it's the same thing in life, though. Like, how often-

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:10 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:03:11 ... how many times do you invite people over to your place and if you actually just take a moment, intention, and just look at everyone in the room, you can pretty quickly tell the person that just feels awkward.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:26 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:03:27 Maybe they just don't know anyone and they're not good at starting a conversation with someone. They feel out of place.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:32 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 1:03:32 It is so easy to just be the person, never let a gracious impulse pass, that walks over and says, "Hey, Joe, come here. I want to introduce you to Jefferson."

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:42 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:03:42 "You guys both play the drums."

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:44 Right.

Will Guidara 1:03:46 That's unreasonable hospitality, but you just, you cared enough to identify what needed to be done and then to do something with what you saw.

Jefferson Fisher 1:03:54 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:03:54 And, like, I'm just saying it exists everywhere. It just... By the way, it's so cool when you get to do that for other people. So why not just do it all the time?

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:03 Yeah. Well, why not? Why not just do it every day?

Will Guidara 1:04:06 I mean it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:07 Yeah. No, no, I think it's a-

Will Guidara 1:04:08 Why not just do it all the time?

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:09 I, I truly think the world would be just so much more fun. And I think when you can find ways to be more spontaneous, more creative-

Will Guidara 1:04:17 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:18 ... um, you know, the, like, what I would often try and do is just have conversations in the most random of places just to, like, just switch it up, even if it's at, like, an ice cream shop. Like, just-

Will Guidara 1:04:32 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:32 You know, like, I-- when I first was starting my, um, the new law firm, that's what I did. I would try and have a conversation with a client of like, I was like, "You don't wanna go sit in my office. Let's go-"

Will Guidara 1:04:43 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:44 "... let's go sit somewhere at this..." I know a lot of people do a coffee shop, or, like, I would do a park, or, uh, just because let me show you that if I can at least bring a little bit of-

Will Guidara 1:04:54 A hundred percent.

Jefferson Fisher 1:04:55 "You know why I like this park? This park reminds me of this time I was with my dad and I did this." And, like, just to be able to share a little bit of that context and story is enough for them to trust you more than any deg-degree they'd see on the wall in your office.

Will Guidara 1:05:11 Well, and also, you just said something that m-makes me think of two things. One, I, I don't mean to talk about Andrew this much, but he's, he's a therapist now, and he doesn't do therapist in an office. He lives in the Hudson Valley, and there's two ways to see him. You can either go on a hike with him, or you can go skiing with him.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:29 Skiing?

Will Guidara 1:05:30 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:30 Oh my goodness. How do you-

Will Guidara 1:05:31 On the lift.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:32 Oh, on the lift. Okay.

Will Guidara 1:05:34 And-

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:35 That's awesome. I'm terrified of ski lifts, but-

Will Guidara 1:05:37 So then go, you, you do the hike.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:39 I'll do, I'll do the-

Will Guidara 1:05:39 You do the hike. Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:40 I'll do the hike. Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:05:40 Or you do cross-country.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:41 Yeah. [laughs]

Will Guidara 1:05:42 But also, what you're doing, you're bringing them to a park, you're changing the environment. I think a lot of communication is... I mean, for me, communication is about connection.

Jefferson Fisher 1:05:51 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:05:52 And connection happens when people let their guards down, and part of that is earning informality and just changing an environment into a, a less formal environment is a way to fast-track the idea of earning-

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:07 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:06:08 ... informality. Um, but the other thing you do in offering-

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:12 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 1:06:12 ... the thing about you and your dad and why you love that park is you're offering up a piece of yourself, which is an invitation to them to do the same in return.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:20 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:06:20 We did this thing. I went to a restaurant in New York, and on the menu it said, "Don't tell us if you're allergic to anything. We don't make substitutions in the food." I was like, "Okay, this is unreasonable, but not unreasonably hospitable."

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:36 Yeah, that's the bad kind. That almost sounds illegal.

Will Guidara 1:06:38 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:38 [laughs] It should be.

Will Guidara 1:06:38 Like, it's just rude.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:39 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:06:40 It's like-

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:40 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:06:41 Eh, and so I went back to the restaurant, and I was like, "I wanna go-- I wanna run hard in the opposite direction of that." Obviously, we asked about allergies.

Jefferson Fisher 1:06:48 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:06:49 But this was a tasting menu. Certain people don't like certain things. So I was like, "I wanna spend the next month coming up with endless permutations of everything we serve so that at the beginning of the meal we can say, 'Are you allergic to anything?' Also, is there just anything you don't like or anything you're not in the mood to eat tonight? Let us know, and we'll make sure you don't see it.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:11 That's a great one.

Will Guidara 1:07:12 But here's the thing. We started it. And by the way, it took a long time, and it was expensive because-

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:19 Took a long time for what?

Will Guidara 1:07:20 To redesign an entire menu.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:21 Oh. Hmm.

Will Guidara 1:07:22 'Cause if you have chicken that's served with mushrooms and someone doesn't like mushrooms, it's not a good experience just to remove the mushrooms.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:29 Ah.

Will Guidara 1:07:29 So now you have to have an entirely different chicken dish to serve them.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:33 Yeah, yeah.

Will Guidara 1:07:33 But it was important to me. And so we did all this work, and then we started it day one. No one told us a single thing they didn't like. Day two, no one told us a single thing they didn't like, so now we're just throwing away food that we've been prepping.

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:47 Right, right, right.

Will Guidara 1:07:48 And I was like, "What is going on?" And so I took a station, meaning I was a waiter-

Jefferson Fisher 1:07:53 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 1:07:53 ... on day three or four. 'Cause sometimes the best way to solve a problem is to actually just get in there yourself. And again, first table, second table, third table, no one's telling me anything. And I was like, "I wonder if it's this," which is this was like Anthony Bourdain had his show, and there are all these shows about people traveling around the world eating weird stuff. I was like, "Maybe people just don't think it's cool to not like stuff."

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:18 Oh.

Will Guidara 1:08:18 And so they're embarrassed.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:20 My son's really cool. [laughs]

Will Guidara 1:08:22 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:24 He's just straight butter noodles, man.

Will Guidara 1:08:25 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:25 I can barely get him to eat anything.

Will Guidara 1:08:26 By the way, I-

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:27 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:08:27 ... I, that's, that's a real experience for most of us right now.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:30 For sure. But you, but that's, that's what you go, maybe that they don't feel comfortable doing that.

Will Guidara 1:08:33 Well, so the next table, I went over, I said, "Is there anything at all you don't like?" And they're like, "No." And I was like, "Can I tell you something? I really don't like oysters, and I really don't like sea urchin." I was like, "You didn't ask. I just felt the need to share."

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:46 Yeah, yeah.

Will Guidara 1:08:47 And they're like, "You know what? I actually don't like beets, and I don't like..." whatever they said.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:51 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:08:52 And all I needed to do-

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:53 Which is-

Will Guidara 1:08:53 ... was tell them something I didn't like.

Jefferson Fisher 1:08:55 Right.

Will Guidara 1:08:56 And then they were like, "Oh, wait. This is a safe space to talk about not liking stuff." I'm not saying that not liking oysters is a display of profound vulnerability.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:05 [laughs] Right, right.

Will Guidara 1:09:07 But just opening up about something-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:09 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:09:10 ... gave them permission to do the same in return, and-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:12 It's vulnerability

Will Guidara 1:09:13 ... it's vulnerability.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:14 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:09:14 And that's, you gave, when you're saying, "I like this part because of this"-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:18 Mm-hmm

Will Guidara 1:09:18 ... that guy's like, "Oh, we can actually connect on more of a human level."

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:23 Right. All of a sudden it's, that's-

Will Guidara 1:09:24 100%

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:24 ... it has nothing to do about degree or experience, and it ends up that, I mean, they, that's just one element of many that they care about.

Will Guidara 1:09:33 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:33 But see, a lot of people could have experience.

Will Guidara 1:09:35 100%.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:35 I mean, it's, it's, it's all the different stuff that they could, you can have of what's your, your personality, and I think, I think that's awesome. I mean, the-

Will Guidara 1:09:43 And then by the way, that person shares something with you about their dad.

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:47 Correct.

Will Guidara 1:09:47 And then you go and you win the case, and-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:49 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:09:50 ... a week later they get a little note from you acknowledging that about their dad, and maybe he said his dad was a big Dallas Cowboys fan, and so you put in a little Dallas Cowboys baseball hat-

Jefferson Fisher 1:09:59 I'm telling you

Will Guidara 1:10:00 ... and you say what a pleasure it was to work with you.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:01 Exactly. Just those little bitty, like, touch points is-

Will Guidara 1:10:03 And they're gonna remember that Dallas Cowboys hat more than they're gonna remember the smart way that you-

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:10 Oh my gosh

Will Guidara 1:10:10 ... argued their case in the courtroom.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:13 This Unreasonable Hospitality field guide, I'm so jealous of it.

Will Guidara 1:10:18 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:18 I'm, I'm, I'm gonna keep telling you that. One, it is-

Will Guidara 1:10:23 Thank you, by the way.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:24 Yeah, absolutely. Let me tell you why I l- I love this thing. I like your book, Unreasonable Hospitality. It's great. The... It really is. It's also, having written a self-help nonfiction book, and this is, we're kind of in the same category, um, th- what makes this so different is, one, it's kind of like as soon as you get it, it feels like it's a... I was in Cub Scouts.

Will Guidara 1:10:50 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:51 And so it's very much a field guide-

Will Guidara 1:10:52 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:53 ... like this, and it's like I, it kind of looks like I should be learning how to, like, build a fire or, like, some knot-

Will Guidara 1:10:58 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:10:58 ... like, certain types of, you know, overhand knots. But I can see... I wish I had had this when I had the restaurant 'cause-

Will Guidara 1:11:06 Mm

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:07 ... one, it's super colorful. S- so you did a really good job of making it to where you want to read through it. The illustrations are really cool. Things change. It doesn't look like it's just ho-hum, and so the design of it is really cool, and that's probably just, like, my brand, like, self-

Will Guidara 1:11:22 Dude, I, I wanted so badly for a workbook about hospitality to itself-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:27 So good

Will Guidara 1:11:27 ... be hospitable and not feel like work. And so the designer is this guy named Don Clark, who has literally worked with Pixar and NASA and Lego.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:36 What?

Will Guidara 1:11:36 And I convinced him-

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:37 Dude

Will Guidara 1:11:37 ... to do this with me.

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:38 I, if, if I... I'm telling you, if there's anybody that I could just Freaky Friday, you know what I'm saying?

Will Guidara 1:11:46 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:46 To just trade, trade your life, man. That's, that's what I would probably do. Like, this one that I really, really like-

Will Guidara 1:11:53 Okay

Jefferson Fisher 1:11:54 ... uh, that I had bookmarked. So you have, "Why is Joe struggling?" And this is, like, a decision tree.

Will Guidara 1:11:59 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:00 And so I thought, "Oh my gosh, how many Joes do we know of, like, somebody on my team is struggling-"

Will Guidara 1:12:05 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:05 "... with something." And then you have this tree of Joe is struggling because he doesn't care and he's not trying. Like, that's rarely the case.

Will Guidara 1:12:11 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:12 But it's so easy to think they just don't care.

Will Guidara 1:12:15 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:15 In relationship, it's easy, the first thing they say is, "Well, you just don't care."

Will Guidara 1:12:18 You just don't care.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:19 And that's never the, that's never the, the truth. Well, rarely, if ever. Joe is trying but still not succ- succeeding. You have all these, like, different ways of if it is true that he's struggling 'cause he doesn't care, fire Joe as fast as you possibly can.

Will Guidara 1:12:31 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:32 Right?

Will Guidara 1:12:32 Just get him out.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:32 If that's really... Yeah, yeah.

Will Guidara 1:12:33 If that's actually the reason-

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:34 Exactly

Will Guidara 1:12:35 ... just fire him.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:36 But is Joe is trying but not succeeding?

Will Guidara 1:12:38 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:12:39 Then it's all these, like, is it training? Is it too much too fast? Is something else going on? It's like listening with your eyes kind of thing. And I, when I first looked at this, I was like, "Dude, this is so cool." Like, of, of, do you know if they're in the right role? It talks all about on specifically what you had, uh, mentioned a minute ago of your rules for criticism. You know, how do you have these teams together? A lot of the things that you and I covered. And so when I, um- I look at this, one, I'm super jealous of it. Number two-

Will Guidara 1:13:12 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:13 ... is you're gonna help so many people with this thing.

Will Guidara 1:13:16 Oh, man. Thank you.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:16 Man, you really, really are. And it i- and it's not at all for just restaurants.

Will Guidara 1:13:23 No.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:24 And, and here I am sitting with somebody who was part of the number one restaurant in the entire world. I've never been. One day I'm gonna go. I've never been.

Will Guidara 1:13:33 One day. I mean, it's different now, but I... You gotta go just to at least experience it a little bit.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:36 Uh, but I also... I mean, I love-- I am a foodie. I just have kids.

Will Guidara 1:13:40 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:40 You know what I'm saying? [chuckles]

Will Guidara 1:13:41 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:41 And so it's like there's only so many places, like, we can go when we have kids, 'cause it's usually like, okay, where's a... Let me go to an Italian place 'cause I know they have noodles and, and a pizza place.

Will Guidara 1:13:51 Dude, I took my ki- I took my, my kids to In-N-Out Burger here, and I was like, "All right. This is great."

Jefferson Fisher 1:13:57 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:13:57 "I love In-N-Out Burger. My kids are gonna love In-N-Out Burger. Like, this can be the connective tissue in our culinary relationship."

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:04 Nice, In-N-Out Burger.

Will Guidara 1:14:04 And we get there, and my three-year-old's like, "Can we go to McDonald's?" [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:08 Yes. Oh my gosh, yes.

Will Guidara 1:14:10 I was like-

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:10 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:14:11 ... I was like, "Guys, why?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:13 Right.

Will Guidara 1:14:13 "Why are you doing this to me?" [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:15 Right. Right, right, right. So my, uh... Back in our s- uh, small town, hometown, uh, right in front of the Walmart is a Chili's. And so you know how you grew up thinking certain places... Mine was Olive Garden. I thought it was, like, the fanciest of the fanciest.

Will Guidara 1:14:31 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:31 And so my... We were in the car in the Uber, and, um, we're trying to find a place, and my son was like, "I got an idea. Y'all wanna go to Chili's?" I'm like... He was like, "That's-"

Will Guidara 1:14:44 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:45 "... like, the top of the line." And we're like, "We'll s- If we see one." And so now if my daughter just raises... She sees a Chili's, she's like... So that's just kind of become, like-

Will Guidara 1:14:54 Dude

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:54 ... also the McDonald's. It's just like the-

Will Guidara 1:14:56 But that's awesome though.

Jefferson Fisher 1:14:56 It really is. We, we, we love it. We love it. I, I want to... This is why I also am really cool about these. And it's really cool when you come across somebody's work and it makes you go like, "Ah, I really wanna just, like, redo everything I've ever done." You know?

Will Guidara 1:15:11 Mm-hmm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:11 Like you, you just kind of get that inspiration and things.

Will Guidara 1:15:14 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:14 So it's like this. This is just I'm reading in the middle of something. It just goes, "Go back to your mission statement. What three strategies could you focus on right now?" And then it just, like, has all the spaces for it, and then it goes right into, what might a strategic planning meeting look like for you? And just, like, you... It's banger after banger of who's gonna be in charge of it, how are you gonna do there, where you gather. Like, the, the way that you have... You talk about pray circles. What... How do you celebrate top performers? Um, I'm gonna use this myself.

Will Guidara 1:15:45 Oh, man.

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:45 It's just super, super cool. Um, and I can... This is the kind of stuff that, like, I nerd out about secretly. I'm just like, "This is so cool." So-

Will Guidara 1:15:54 I, I think, I think we're the same. When I, I recorded my audiobook for the first book-

Jefferson Fisher 1:15:59 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:15:59 ... and then you remember doing this, right? You record it all, and then you go away.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:04 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:16:05 And like a month later you have to go back to do pickups-

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:07 Yes. Yeah, yeah

Will Guidara 1:16:08 ... and the credits and that stuff.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:09 Yeah, yeah. I remember.

Will Guidara 1:16:10 In the month between recording it and doing pickups and the credits, I listened to Greenlights, McConaughey's book-

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:15 Oh, nice

Will Guidara 1:16:16 ... on audio.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:16 I haven't listened on audio.

Will Guidara 1:16:18 Dude, it's just a masterful audiobook performance. And I listened to that, I was like, "Gosh, I wish I'd listened to this before I recorded-

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:26 Before I did it

Will Guidara 1:16:27 ... my audiobook." And so I went in to do the pickups, and he just does so many creative things in how he delivers the material.

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:33 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:16:33 And I was like, "I gotta do something." And meanwhile, I had already started the practice of collecting observations when I was writing the book-

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:39 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:16:39 ... and I didn't want it to stop. And so on my phone, there were just a bunch of new things that I'd... observations, ideas, insights, and the book was done. So we get to the end of doing all the pickups and the credits, and I said to the producer, I was like, "Hey, keep rolling. I wanna add something after the credits."

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:56 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 1:16:57 And he's like, "Well, you're not allowed to do that."

Jefferson Fisher 1:16:59 [laughs]

Will Guidara 1:16:59 And I was like, "Uh, just keep rolling." And so I said, "Hey, to whoever makes the decision about whether or not there's allowed to be bonus material after the credits, this is important to me-

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:11 Mm

Will Guidara 1:17:11 ... and if you've read the book, you know what that means.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:13 Mm-hmm.

Will Guidara 1:17:14 My cell phone number is this. Call me if you wanna have a conversation about it."

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:17 Oh, I love it.

Will Guidara 1:17:17 And I just did this whole Easter egg.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:19 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:17:19 And basically I was like, "Hey, are you still there?"

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:21 Yeah. Oh, that's cool.

Will Guidara 1:17:22 "Me too."

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:23 Yeah.

Will Guidara 1:17:23 And did this whole, like, Easter egg at the end-

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:25 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:17:25 ... of the audiobook.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:26 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Will Guidara 1:17:26 And it was just inspired by listening to someone else's work-

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:28 Right

Will Guidara 1:17:29 ... being jealous, wishing I could do it all over again-

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:31 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:17:31 ... but saying, "Well, I can't, but I can at least do this."

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:34 But that, that comes too from... Like, what's the takeaway? Is expose yourself to creativity.

Will Guidara 1:17:40 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:40 Like, expose yourself to... There's some people who go, you know, there's the downside of reavi- reading too many self-help and whatever, and I agree. You can have too much if you're not acting on it, but you have to expose yourself to different-

Will Guidara 1:17:55 Yes

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:55 ... mediums.

Will Guidara 1:17:56 Yes.

Jefferson Fisher 1:17:56 Different, like... Th- there's a reason why the color wheel has a spectrum, like, that you have to have spectrum-

Will Guidara 1:18:02 100%

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:02 ... and diversity in your life. Like, there would... Even in investments, like, you don't wanna just go with one th- Like, it's-

Will Guidara 1:18:08 Yeah, you gotta diversify

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:08 ... you always have to... Exactly. And so it's the same thing of how do you... You, you hear that from Matthew McConaughey-

Will Guidara 1:18:14 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:15 ... and you go, "You know what? I'm gonna add a little bit of spectrum here."

Will Guidara 1:18:17 Yeah.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:18 And so, and that turns into something else.

Will Guidara 1:18:20 100%.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:20 And then you have, uh, because you've written this book, here you are doing stuff with The Bear. You're d- like, designing a stadium. You're doing, like-

Will Guidara 1:18:30 We're doing lots of fun stuff.

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:31 I'm telling you, and your wife's amazing. Like, so you're just getting to do all stuff.

Will Guidara 1:18:35 But I mean, like, I, I think... I mean, you too. Like, we... The two of us were in a room yesterday-

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:41 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:18:41 ... with a bunch of really successful authors learning from other people, and gosh, I, I'm pretty intent on never getting to a place where I don't pinch myself when I find myself in these rooms because-

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:55 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:18:55 ... I'm just filled with gratitude for the experiences that I get to have and-

Jefferson Fisher 1:18:59 Yeah

Will Guidara 1:18:59 ... for the people I get to meet.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:00 Same.

Will Guidara 1:19:00 And it's pretty amazing.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:02 Same, same. The fact, um, of just how we even kind of came into play is, is crazy. But that's, that has to do a lot with opening yourself to a lot of different-

Will Guidara 1:19:12 Yeah

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:12 ... colors in the, in the spectrum.

Will Guidara 1:19:14 Mm.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:14 So man, thank you so much for sitting-

Will Guidara 1:19:17 Dude, thanks for having me

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:18 ... and, and talking with me. This thing, uh, The Field Guide, Unreasonable Hospitality Field Guide, you gotta get it. When does it come out?

Will Guidara 1:19:24 It's April 28th.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:27 It's gonna be a killer, man. I, I, I... As soon as I got it, I was like, "Doggone it."

Will Guidara 1:19:31 [laughs]

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:31 "This is so good." Uh, for anybody wanting to add strategic planning to their teams and how to do it differently, it's just a step-by-step roadmap to elevating the magic in what you do with your business. Can't recommend it enough. Thanks, man, for sitting with me.

Will Guidara 1:19:45 Thanks, brother.

Jefferson Fisher 1:19:46 All right, brother.