The Jefferson Fisher PodcastThe One Thing People Remember More Than Your Talent ft. Will Guidara
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
80 min read · 15,885 words- 0:00 – 2:16
Why hospitality pros avoid “watching the room” while dining
- JFJefferson Fisher
Welcome to The Jefferson Fisher Podcast. On today's episode, my guest is Will Guidara. He is the author of The New York Times bestselling book, Unreasonable Hospitality. If you see a bright yellow book in an airport or a bookstore, it's most likely Will's. He is fantastic. He is the former co-owner of the restaurant Eleven Madison Park in New York, and under his leadership, it was named the number one restaurant in the entire world. And he is also the co-producer of FX series Emmy Award-winning show, The Bear. There are so many gems from this conversation. We talk all about the art of hospitality in conversation. How, how do you bring creativity and deliver more than just the minimum expectations in how we interact with one, with one another? We talk all about how to have the right kind of meetings, how to get attention immediately, how to navigate the right way, and at the end of the day, how to do it with grace and kindness and a little bit of something spontaneous that you never expected. Enjoy. So you go to a restaurant, and then it's easy to kind of pick up on those little moments. I, I, I imagine even when you're working and even if you're just there hanging out, like it's almost impossible for your eyes not to be just like hypervigilant the whole time.
- WGWill Guidara
Well, so like with intention.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes.
- WGWill Guidara
The other night at dinner-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- WGWill Guidara
... I sat in the chair facing the window.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I, I noticed that.
- WGWill Guidara
I will always, if there's a chair where I'm looking at a wall-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... that's where I'll sit.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
Just because I've gotten pretty good at it, but like I don't need... It's like an addict hanging out with like heroin on the table.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- WGWill Guidara
It's unnecessary. Like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah, you don't need to be doing that
- WGWill Guidara
... I don't need the distraction because I will invariably like, "Wait, why are they... Oh."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. And all of a sudden you're, and then you're gone from the conversation.
- WGWill Guidara
And then, and then I just missed the most beautiful part of the conversation-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right
- WGWill Guidara
... that I helped to perhaps set in motion.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I get that. I have, uh, one of my best friends, uh, was a policeman forever, and still he sits always where he can see the door. Like that's just-
- WGWill Guidara
Yes
- JFJefferson Fisher
... he, he, he's, he's not gonna sit anywhere. He can't c- feel comfortable not looking at a door when he's sitting down like that.
- WGWill Guidara
So I do the opposite. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
You do the opposite.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Well, yeah, 'cause you don't wanna see it. And one thing I was gonna s-
- WGWill Guidara
But also my work doesn't have the capacity to save someone's life.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's true.
- WGWill Guidara
So [laughs] there's, the stakes are a little different.
- 2:16 – 7:28
Jefferson’s surprise detour: opening a restaurant during COVID (and hurricanes)
- WGWill Guidara
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like you might, you might be. And I was gonna tell you, uh, this is a little gem most people don't know. So when I, uh, was at my old, uh, first law firm, big defense firm, and I was getting the itch of I'm in my mid-20s, and who-- Everybody in their mid-20s thinks, "I know this better than everybody."
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, "I'm the smartest. I know this. E- I'm right. Everybody else is wrong."
- WGWill Guidara
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And I was really wanting to learn business, of like having my own business, 'cause I went straight from law school into big law and, and doing that life. And-
- WGWill Guidara
Business as in starting your own firm?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Uh, yeah, or, or just, uh, w- how do you, how do you have your own employees? Like what's that?
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
How is it you can do that?
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah, yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so COVID, my, one of my best friends, amazing chef by himself, uh, and he had just gotten let go of this restaurant, and then there was this like, I don't know what they call it, Class A commercial building that had a restaurant in it that was looking for a new person to come in. And so I came in with him, and we opened that little restaurant.
- WGWill Guidara
Wait, you actually did it?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Uh-huh. And a coffee shop right next to it. Like a, a little-
- WGWill Guidara
No way
- JFJefferson Fisher
... American food little place, uh, that did really well. And, and so I learned all about plate costs and all of like the things-
- WGWill Guidara
Were you actually in it?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, dude.
- WGWill Guidara
You're like on the floor?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
No way.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. And so it was... And I would help out on expo and try all the different-
- WGWill Guidara
No way.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, man. And so it was-
- WGWill Guidara
Is that restaurant still there?
- JFJefferson Fisher
It's still there. I, I, I sold my part. If like I got... It was like I could either try to get an MBA in business, or I could just put the same amount of money into-
- WGWill Guidara
Go work at a restaurant for a while
- JFJefferson Fisher
... learning and, yeah, yeah, and, and doing it. Even though many would say not the best business model for, for certain things. But it was, it was fantastic. And now, and I, what I learned a lot, and I think whereas I wish I had had, and we're gonna tuck into this field guide that you have. Like I'm, I'm generally not a jealous guy.
- WGWill Guidara
All right. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
All right? This field guide, as soon as I saw it and got it in my hands, I was like, "Dog gone it, this is so good."
- 7:28 – 8:25
The brand trap: what guests remember more than food, logos, or aesthetics
- WGWill Guidara
The way you articulated, like, the brand.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
It is very, very common for someone to get like, "All right, I wanna be really creative about the food on the plate."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- WGWill Guidara
"I wanna be really creative about what plates we use, about what the room looks like. I wanna be creative about what the logo is and the tagline-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- WGWill Guidara
... and the uniforms." And yet, the one thing that people will actually remember is where people stop being creative.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Where they stopped
- WGWill Guidara
... where they stop. No one-- very few people, rather, invest their best efforts into just the big and little things that make people feel a sense of connection to, to a place.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I think that's so right.
- WGWill Guidara
And it's so counter-- Like, the moment you say it out loud like that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... and it's like, "Oh, well, that makes sense."
- JFJefferson Fisher
But yet.
- WGWill Guidara
But yet.
- 8:25 – 10:36
Unreasonable hospitality in communication: creativity + intention
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, but yet. I, um, you know, you have the book Unreasonable Hospitality, and I'm gonna be able to share with my audience all, all of your background. But I, I-- my mind always turns to communication.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so I, I have been toying with the idea of, like, what is the equivalent of unreasonable hospitality in communication? If, if we define hospitality as you do, the creative, intentional act of making people f- feel seen, heard, and cared for-
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... above and beyond the service. You know, what does that feel like, look like in communication? So I was curious, in your mind, what-- whether it's relationships, whether it's team, 'cause I do wanna talk team, what do you find are those moments that have been that unreasonableness that you benefited from-
- WGWill Guidara
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... in conversation with people? So, so some of your best friends.
- WGWill Guidara
Well, I mean, I think a lot of your work centers around hospitality.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- WGWill Guidara
I really do. Like, those two words, creativity and intention-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- WGWill Guidara
... I circle back to often, right? I think the most beautiful things happen at the intersection of those two things, right? The intention of saying, "I want to communicate this."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- WGWill Guidara
'Cause a lot of people in communication are not very intentional about-
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- WGWill Guidara
... what is coming out of their mouths, right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
Like, as opposed to saying, "What am I actually trying to communicate? Okay, it's this." Then creativity. What's the right way to communicate it such that the message will actually be received and, depending on the context-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- WGWill Guidara
... in a way that is supportive and not destructive or thoughtful-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- WGWill Guidara
... and not insulting, right? And when it's that kind of communication or if you're attempting to make someone feel some level of affirmation, they're actually communicating to them in a way that they can receive it well.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- 10:36 – 12:11
Feedback culture: praise is affirmation, criticism is investment
- WGWill Guidara
So, like, on the... I talk a lot about feedback.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- WGWill Guidara
I think you cannot create anything extraordinary in a business absent, like, creating a culture where feedback is the norm. And when I talk about feedback, yes, I'm talking about praise, obviously, because when you set really high expectations for people and they meet or exceed those expectations, you better be there to celebrate them.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
A, because it's the right thing to do, but, well, B, the more praise I receive, the more praise I want to receive.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- WGWill Guidara
Right? You're telling people what right looks like, and you're encouraging them to do more of that. And not to mention the fact that in a group, if we're having a daily huddle, and I'm celebrating the heck out of you-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... everyone else in the group is gonna be like, "I want a piece of that."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly.
- WGWill Guidara
So obviously praise, but I think we focus so much on praise that we don't spend nearly enough time focusing on criticism.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- WGWill Guidara
Because if praise is affirmation, criticism is investment.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So if we can say un- an equivalent of unreasonable hospitality and communication is the value of criticism done right.
- WGWill Guidara
Thoughtful criticism.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm. Thoughtful criticism.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah. And in the same way that I've watched your videos where you're like, "Hey, if you wanna do this, like, do this."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
Right?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right. You-- It-- What are, what are some other ways that you could-
- WGWill Guidara
Exactly.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It, it was kind of like your idea of like, there's a better way to do this.
- WGWill Guidara
There's a better way.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know, when you walk into a restaurant-
- WGWill Guidara
What's the-- Yes, exactly
- JFJefferson Fisher
... a hotel, you know, there's a better way to do this.
- 12:11 – 16:12
How to deliver criticism that actually works (and the trainer analogy)
- WGWill Guidara
But with criticism, I mean, unreasonable communication and criticism is recognizing that there's, like, things you need to keep in mind if you want it to be thoughtful-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- WGWill Guidara
... if you want it to be an investment, and-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- WGWill Guidara
... let's criticize in private, not in public.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- WGWill Guidara
It's criticize the behavior, not the person. Remember that I'm telling you to wear white socks. I'm not telling you you're an idiot.
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- WGWill Guidara
You know what I mean? Like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... you're great.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- WGWill Guidara
Just do this differently. To criticize consistently-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm
- WGWill Guidara
... because some people are so uncomfortable with investing in someone else's growth through criticism that they don't do it until they're either in a bad mood or have the energy and-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... two things happen when you are inconsistent in criticism. People don't actually know what right looks like 'cause they could do-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... the same thing three days in a row, and they're only getting called on it the third. Or a negative connotation is attached to it because you only do it when you're in a foul mood, right? And so you-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... do it in a bad way. Um-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Do you think that there's, like, a line between just feedback, general feedback and also criticism?
- WGWill Guidara
I think criticism is a type of feedback.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- WGWill Guidara
I think praise is a type of feedback.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And criticism a ty- is a type of feedback.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Not all feedback is criticism.
- WGWill Guidara
No.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- 16:12 – 21:03
Grace, charitable assumption, and asking before accusing
- JFJefferson Fisher
code JEFFERSON for twenty percent off. Let's keep going. When I was, uh, on the way, knowing this conversation was coming, I was like, wow. I was just wrestling and kind of chewing on the idea of, like, to me, what is that unreasonable hospitality in conversation? And the theme that keep, kept coming up for me is grace. Like, grace can be an unreasonable-
- WGWill Guidara
Hmm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... thing, like an unreasonable feeling. And it draws that line between mercy and grace. Mercy being you don't get what you deserve. Grace is you get what you don't deserve.
- WGWill Guidara
Hmm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so, so much in conversation, like, you might deserve me to give you that clap back, comeback insult right in your face.
- WGWill Guidara
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
It would be unreasonable for me-
- WGWill Guidara
Yes
- JFJefferson Fisher
... to have pause and decide that your worst moment is not gonna determine how I respond.
- WGWill Guidara
Do you know the, the phrase that I learned from my longtime mentor, his name is Danny Meyer, is Danny Meyer. It was one of the central tenets of the company, was charitable assumption.
- JFJefferson Fisher
When you say the company, I wanna-
- WGWill Guidara
Uh, Unreasonable, uh, Union Square Hospitality Group.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes. Got it. Okay.
- WGWill Guidara
So that was like Gramercy Tavern-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes
- WGWill Guidara
... Union Square Cafe. It's where I came up. Um, and there's a whole 'nother idea about communication from that company. But he had these isms, like these short, succinct-
- JFJefferson Fisher
I love a good ism
- WGWill Guidara
... bordering on cheesy-
- JFJefferson Fisher
[laughs]
- WGWill Guidara
... articulations-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... of his non-negotiables.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- WGWill Guidara
And every time he made an idea into an ism, it was like a meta signal to all of us in the company that that thing mattered.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
Um, one of them was charitable assumption.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Hmm.
- WGWill Guidara
Charitable assumption is another way of saying give people the benefit of the doubt or ask the question before you say the thing.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And so I'll give an example. Um, someone comes into the restaurant, and they're just a jerk. They are just a jerk. They're acting like a jerk. Now, it's totally reasonable for me to say he doesn't deserve my best hospitality.
- 21:03 – 29:59
Leading teams with daily huddles: turning ‘pre-meal’ into real leadership
- WGWill Guidara
Yes
- JFJefferson Fisher
... to the given moment. Now, you have managed, I mean, just the number of teams and the number of pressure, and I have heard your story of how Eleven Madison Park had just went under your helm to the number one restaurant in the world, which is just bonkers.
- WGWill Guidara
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right? But the level of determination, not for just the food being perfect or this being perfect, is that you cared just as much about your team-
- WGWill Guidara
Mm
- JFJefferson Fisher
... as you did about the people that you're serving. And so there are people that will be listening to this who have their own business, who are small business owners or big business owners that they, they're people managers. And so what I was really curious about are what are some of the questions and things that we need to think about as people managers? So what, what are some of your big like tenets that you're going, "Hey, if I have everybody on hand..." I know you have, what do you call it? Pre-meal.
- WGWill Guidara
Pre-meal.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, so those kinda like meetings. H-how do you... How can we better manage people?
- WGWill Guidara
Well, okay, let's start with pre-meal, 'cause that's one of my favorite places to start.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And I'll frame what that is. So pre-meal is the 30-minute meeting we have every day with our entire team right before we unlock the doors and go into service. And it's a meeting that most restaurants have, and yet it is one that is almost always wasted. Um, and a wasted pre-meal, that happens when, well, you spend the entire time talking about ideas that could easily be communicated via an email, like operational concerns. Because that meeting, it's called a daily huddle, right, in other worlds-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, daily huddles
- WGWill Guidara
... is, in my view, the greatest opportunity a leader has to actually step up and lead the people around them.
- JFJefferson Fisher
So it's taking our, the, our daily hu-huddle seriously.
- WGWill Guidara
Taking it very seriously.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. For the regular mom-and-pop business, the small business out there, when you have, one, it's understanding daily huddles are a necessity.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Um, do, do you require that it be every day, or is it-
- WGWill Guidara
I mean, listen, I, I never, when I'm talking-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... to people in other industries, I never want, um, perfect-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Sure
- WGWill Guidara
... to be the enemy of the good.
- JFJefferson Fisher
A cadence that works.
- WGWill Guidara
A cadence that works.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And the cadence should be more frequently than you're comfortable with.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, that's a good basis.
- WGWill Guidara
Well, because most people, when they start doing this, they kinda start at somewhat the bare minimum.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- 29:59 – 34:22
A practical meeting format: written notes, stories, and closing rituals
- JFJefferson Fisher
Does it need to be in person or can it be virtual, you think?
- WGWill Guidara
I think it can be virtual.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. It just needs-- Whatever it is, it has to be consistent.
- WGWill Guidara
And it needs to be, you need to be prepared for it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Is there a certain way that you run the meeting in terms of we're gonna talk about this, this, and this, or is it just kind of top of mind?
- WGWill Guidara
Well, so the way I always did it, I had notes that-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Index cards or?
- WGWill Guidara
... every single person on the team would be given a piece of paper.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, you give them a note.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- WGWill Guidara
And the, the paper was kind of everything, all the stuff I needed to make sure they knew.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- WGWill Guidara
Uh, depending on the company and the industry, it's different, right? Like-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... health insurance enrollment begins on this day. This policy changed. This is a new system we're implementing. Da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Now they have all the information I needed to communicate literally in their hands.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- WGWill Guidara
No one can ever say-
- JFJefferson Fisher
I didn't give it to you
- WGWill Guidara
... I didn't get the email.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
Or I didn't check the portal or whatever.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right. [laughs] Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
Like, it's literally in their hands.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Uh-huh.
- WGWill Guidara
If I have a few housekeeping notes, I'll say that at the top, and then I will come in to that meeting prepared in the same way that I am now when I step up on a stage.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- WGWill Guidara
I'll say, "All right, I wanna tell you guys a story of something that happened to me last week." And da, da, da, da, da, da, da. I'll tell the story. Anyone doing-- Anyone who's ever done public speaking knows stories make ideas stick. And then I'll talk about the lesson that I learned from it. And then we'll talk about it as a group.
- JFJefferson Fisher
How do you end it?
- WGWill Guidara
I would always end with this. The, the way the meeting started would be, it-- What's today? Uh-
- 34:22 – 36:11
Shared leadership: rotating who runs the huddle to build confidence
- WGWill Guidara
The other thing I would always do, I worked Monday through Friday.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- WGWill Guidara
Very, very long days. We're still open on the weekends.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Now, what's, what's a long day?
- WGWill Guidara
Nine AM to midnight.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. Yeah, that's a long day. [laughs]
- WGWill Guidara
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, that would count.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah. For a long, long time.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right. Sure.
- WGWill Guidara
Um, on Saturday, when you got the schedule-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm
- WGWill Guidara
... there would be a star next to one person every Saturday, which meant you're running premial.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh.
- WGWill Guidara
And that gave them a heads-up because I do believe public speaking is a leadership skill.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And also, once you've delivered that speech and you know how hard it is to do it well, you're gonna be one of the most attentive people next time-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... you're on the receiving end of it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right. Right.
- WGWill Guidara
And so the more you can push people outside of their comfort zone and have them actually lead, the more ready they are to become leaders when their days arrive.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, I love that. So actually changing who gets-
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... to lead it.
- WGWill Guidara
Exactly.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, whoever's doing it, and you're getting to change every single time. Man, I, I think that's a great, um, idea for people to have for every team meeting that they have. Somebody else run it.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
'Cause then, then you all share in both the privilege and the horror-
- WGWill Guidara
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
... and, uh, you know, and the anxiety of-
- 36:11 – 40:34
Team language and emotional support systems: ‘Crush him’ and DBC
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right. I think that's sometimes the beauty of, like, inside jokes.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know? Uh, because it's something that we share.
- WGWill Guidara
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And because we can kinda riff off each other and have that level of bond.
- WGWill Guidara
Mm.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Like, if it's two people, w-whether it's, you know, they're look- working on, uh, what is it, the cold line or whatever, and they're like behind the-
- WGWill Guidara
Yes. Yes
- JFJefferson Fisher
... you get what I mean? And they're, or they're prepping for the day. Like, just to have that sense of... You have to find ways to make the mundane fun.
- WGWill Guidara
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And sometimes that ... to me is the same thing we do in conversation. Like we have mundane conversations-
- WGWill Guidara
Well, an inside joke makes you feel like an insider.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And that's what we all want. We all wanna feel like we're a part-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Included
- WGWill Guidara
... of something.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And the fewer people that are a part of it, the more special it feels to be a part of it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- WGWill Guidara
Like, that's why I love creating words within an organization.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- WGWill Guidara
Like Dan- or isms.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
Like charitable assumption or we used to have all these little... Like if you-- Let's say if I still had a restaurant, now we've become friends.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
You come into the restaurant, I'm not there. I'm just gonna send a text, uh, Jefferson Fisher dash table forty-two dash crush him.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. [laughs]
- WGWill Guidara
And would that mean-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... everyone on my team would know what that means.
- 40:34 – 42:42
The Bear: how Will joined the show and kept it restaurant-real
- JFJefferson Fisher
Exactly. You know, you worry about this, I'll worry about... And it gets into that. I wanna, I wanna know a little bit. So you co-produce FX, The, The Bear.
- WGWill Guidara
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Which is just the wildest thing.
- WGWill Guidara
[laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
Again, I'm not a very often a jealous guy, but you-- the creativity projects that you're in-
- WGWill Guidara
Oh, man. [laughs]
- JFJefferson Fisher
I'm like, "God, that's so cool." All right. So, uh, first I wanna know, you know, when you... How do you get involved in this project, and then how did you make sure that what is on film... I know there's other writers and a, a whole cast of amazing-
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... people that are helping bring this to life. Make sure that it reflects exactly kind of what was going on and what you've seen in your whole experience-
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... in Eleven Madison Park and everything else.
- WGWill Guidara
Well, so, so how I got inv- I was not involved with The Bear from day one.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- WGWill Guidara
Um, I got to know Chris Storer, who's the creator of The Bear. Awesome, awesome guy.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's cool.
- WGWill Guidara
Unbelievably creative, and by the way, one of the most remarkable leaders. Like, m- the way that every single person, regardless of position on that show, is treated and how they all feel such a genuine sense of ownership in the product as a whole.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- WGWill Guidara
And I wanna share one thing they did in a moment to, to reinforce that. But-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... they did the first season. All of a sudden it's a hit. At this point, I'd gotten to know him a little bit, and he came to the release party for Unreasonable Hospitality, like the dinner that I had when the book first came out. Then season two is about like three months from coming out, and he emails me, and they were doing all the editing in, in Brooklyn. [clears throat] He's like, "Hey, can you come out to our offices some point in the next couple weeks? I wanna show you something." I was like, "Yeah." So I go out, and they show me episode seven of season two. It's called Forks.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- WGWill Guidara
And the entire episode is effectively right out of my book.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay.
- WGWill Guidara
And it's this beautiful episode, literally lines of sc- of text. L- like, there's things in the script that are verbatim what was in the book, and this whole story... Uh, m- my book has a famous story about a hot dog, and it's reimagined as a deep dish pizza in the episode.
- 42:42 – 49:37
The hot dog moment: presence, not taking yourself too seriously, and ‘one size fits one’
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. I want you to tell them, tell them real quick the, the hot dog-
- WGWill Guidara
The hot dog story?
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yes. I want-- They need, they need to hear it. It's too, it's too good.
- WGWill Guidara
So the [laughs] so the hot dog story It's one of the stickiest out of the book.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And by the way, it, it's an example of why stories make ideas stick.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
That happened with me in the restaurant as we were really trying to figure out what unreasonable hospitality meant.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm-hmm.
- WGWill Guidara
I'd written it down because I knew there was something in that approach but didn't yet understand how it would be brought to life.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Meaning you wrote the words down-
- WGWill Guidara
I wrote the words down
- JFJefferson Fisher
... the phrase hospitality.
- WGWill Guidara
I want to be unreasonable in pursuit of hospitality. Great.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And you have-- And you're managing Eleven Park-- uh, Madison Park at the time.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah, yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Okay. Which for anybody who doesn't know, is just the most amazing restaurant in the world.
- WGWill Guidara
And it was already... Like, at that point, we had three Michelin stars. We had all the stars.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Correct.
- WGWill Guidara
But I wanted to be the best.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Which is-- That's mind-blowing.
- WGWill Guidara
That was... Thank you. Thank you.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's mind-blowing. And what? You were like top twenty, something like that already?
- WGWill Guidara
Well, no, I wrote those words down when we came in fiftieth-
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's right, fiftieth
- WGWill Guidara
... of the fifty best.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. Okay. Which is still, like-
- WGWill Guidara
It's still... But that's just not how I'm wired.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And you were like, "Not good enough."
- WGWill Guidara
In, in that room, I was last place.
- 49:37 – 57:53
Never let a gracious impulse pass: making spontaneity a habit
- WGWill Guidara
Because I think what's important is everyone on the team needs to be empowered to come up with these ideas. You just need to make it easy for them to deploy those ideas.
- JFJefferson Fisher
They have them.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah. And by the way, I mean, it happens to us all the time in life. How many times have you seen something or thought like, "Man, that would be really cool to do for this person. Gosh, I'm too busy."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And we hired a person onto the team just so all you had to do was say, "Hey, Emily, can you do this?" And she would make it happen.
- JFJefferson Fisher
I'll say, my habit is I'll say, "Once this is done, then I will." Like-
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah
- JFJefferson Fisher
... it's easy to go, "This is just a really crazy week, but after this I'll be able to get to that." And then it's funny how there's always another.
- WGWill Guidara
Do you know, I was in a, uh, I did a talk, and in the, the meet and greet afterwards, a guy came up. He's like, "You know, we have this expression in my family, and your speech really made me think of it. Never let a gracious impulse pass."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- WGWill Guidara
And gosh, I love that.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's, that's some good stuff.
- WGWill Guidara
Because how many times do you have them? And when you have them, the whole idea is just do it.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
And I was literally at the, the Goodwill that weekend with my, with my kids.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
We call it the treasure store.
- JFJefferson Fisher
The treasure store. It's pretty apt too.
- WGWill Guidara
And basically every so often, we call it treasure store day.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
We have to go up into the room and we take 10 things, and we go give them to the Goodwill, and then they can buy one thing from the Goodwill.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
Um, and Andrew, the guy, the DBC guy, when we were growing up, he loved the band Sublime.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Oh, nice.
- WGWill Guidara
And he would literally like busk on the streets-
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah, yeah
- WGWill Guidara
... playing Sublime songs. And we're in the treasure store, and I see a Sublime T-shirt in his size, uh, as we're walk-- like an old school Sublime T-shirt. And I just heard this guy say, "Never let a gracious impulse pass." If I'm being honest, like a version of me would've seen that and been like, "Man, Andy would like that. Then I gotta buy it, and then I gotta put it in a box and go to the thing." And I would've just walked right past it. But this time I was like, "No, I had a gracious impulse. I can't let it pass."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
I took it off the thing and sent it to him, and he was like, "Dude, that was the coolest gift."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Isn't that awesome?
- 57:53 – 1:19:46
Reading the room: listening with your eyes and creating safety through vulnerability
- JFJefferson Fisher
But I mean, how cool is that? You just get to kind of live in that, that creativity. So I, I wanna make sure that I, I don't-- you don't leave without me asking some of these is... I mean, I know I could text you, but this is too good. Of when you're thinking, you know, the, the, the hot dog moment or, and all the other stuff in your book. I love the one with the s- the sled-
- WGWill Guidara
Yes
- JFJefferson Fisher
... of like all these others, is what made the difference is you led and empowered your team by example to listen.
- WGWill Guidara
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
None of that happens without having the specific and right ear for it.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Because you're not, you're not listening to the conversation. You're listening to the need-
- WGWill Guidara
Yes
- JFJefferson Fisher
... that is almost unspoken.
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And so it's not like the guy said, "Man, you know what would be great? If somebody brought me a hot dog."
- WGWill Guidara
Yes.
- JFJefferson Fisher
You know what I mean?
- WGWill Guidara
Yeah.
- JFJefferson Fisher
He didn't say that. He, he just... A-and so you heard the need that wasn't even exactly spoken.
- WGWill Guidara
A hundred percent.
- JFJefferson Fisher
And I feel like in conversation and in teams and with sp- you know, especially with customers, clients, you're having to have the right... to train your ear for the right kind of needs. And so I don't-- How did you do that? What did... Did you teach them to listen for anything?
- WGWill Guidara
Well, yeah, by the way, I mean, you know this better than anyone. You're listening not just with your ears.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Mm.
- WGWill Guidara
Right? Like I, I think I f- have found that you can teach people how to do something, and you can be like, "Hey, if someone says this, like, just go back in, in the conversation before you even arrived there. Like, where did that thing come from? You might not have heard it, but... And where could it go next?" The sledding.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Right.
- WGWill Guidara
Someone says, "Our kids have never seen snow before."
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
Okay, so where does that go next?
- JFJefferson Fisher
What could it be? Yeah.
- WGWill Guidara
What could it be? Like, I think the best experiences are when you dream of the world you wish existed, and then you invite someone else into your imagination.
- JFJefferson Fisher
That's a good one.
- WGWill Guidara
So like, all right, they've never seen snow. These are kids. What do kids love doing in the snow? Sledding. Oh my gosh, let's go buy them sleds right now.
- JFJefferson Fisher
Yeah. These spontaneous moments.
- WGWill Guidara
But then even the things that you don't hear. I mean, the, the, the stories that get celebrated the most out of the book are the more over-the-top ones.
Episode duration: 1:19:46
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