What To Say Instead Of Getting Defensive

1. 0:00 – 0:31

   Why arguments really start: the defensive response

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      The fastest way to lose an argument is to start one. Oh, can I get a witness? Man, I tell you, there's been so many times I have gotten into an argument and realized I did this all to myself. Anybody relate to that? Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher Podcast. I'm throwing it back in the truck where it all began. Here we go. So what I wanna share with you today is something that's been on my heart, and that is how to reduce the relational arguments in

2. 0:31 – 3:02

   The disclaimer: everyday conflict, not abuse dynamics

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:31

      your life. Now, hear me. I need you to hear me. This is a disclaimer in bright letters, all caps. I am no marriage guru. All right? I am married. What I'm about to share with you has come at great cost because I have done things that have been terrible. All right? I have gotten us into bad positions, bad arguments, bad conflicts, and a lot of the things I'm gonna teach you are the ways that I have gotten through it, and the way that we, Sierra and I, work through things. This is a process. This is growth. So h- how can I give you some insight here? Number one, when you start a conflict, anytime with a spouse, a friend, a coworker, I want you to question for a second, how does the argument start? When somebody is complaining to you, when they are saying the thing they don't like, "I don't like it when you leave this out," or, "Put this here," or, uh, "The way you wrote that document," or, "Sent that email," or, "Worded this," or, "Did this." Okay. Whenever they send you something, that's not the argument. That's not somebody starting an argument. The argument starts when you say, "That's not true. That's not what I said." "But yeah, but what about... But what about... But yeah, but..." Like, all, all of those things, that's, that's where the argument begins, right there. Not when they first have their sign, their signal. They're, they put out that signal of communication. It is when you respond and get, what? Defensive with that. It is when instead of receiving what is being sent, you immediately put up your spam blocker, right? Just going, eh, nope. As if you have a red button that just goes, eh, I am not dealing with this. I do not accept what you're putting out. Now, I'm not talking about if someone's being verbally abusive or gaslighting or anything like that. Put, put that aside. This is just your everyday conflict most of the time that, that you deal with and how to get better at it. So I want you to have the mindset of arguments do not start from what the other person has said. Arguments start when you butt up against it, when you get defensive, you pick up that shield, and you go, "That's not what I said. That's not what I did. That's not what... Yeah, but what about..." As soon as you go into

3. 3:02 – 4:33

   Mindset shift: they’re fighting to be understood, not fighting you

   1. JFJefferson Fisher3:02

      that mode of, "That's not true. You know what I did..." You, you are... That's the argument, and that's how you lose. That's how you lose. I want you to have this mindset, okay? This mindset that when you hear somebody, they are not fighting you, they are fighting to be understood by you. They are fighting to be understood by you. And when you find that it's-- you have this knee-jerk reaction, which is gonna happen. Like it's not w- it's not a if things are gonna go south, it's when they're going to go south. It's gonna happen. Listen to me. It's gonna happen. Whenever that, whenever it does, I need you to find a path to reduce the length of that pain. So when I find that I'm getting defensive, because I'm gonna sometimes have that knee-jerk reaction and go, "That's not true. That's not, that's not accurate. That's not what I said." That is creating more pain in the conversation because I'm skipping over what I'm gonna talk to you in section two, is I'm skipping over the need by her or by a friend or by anybody to feel heard and understood in that moment. I'm totally skipping right over it and going to what I'm fighting for. And the quicker I can get to that mindset of they're not fighting me, they're fighting to be understood by this, the faster I can get there. Even

4. 4:33 – 6:35

   The power of affirming: calm the nervous system before solving

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:33

      when I mess up, the faster I can get there, the better it's going to be. So the mindset of they're not fighting you, they're fighting to be understood. How do we do that? Number two, we affirm. We affirm. Let me tell you what I've learned. There are phrases that I'm gonna share with you on how to affirm the moment. How do you make them feel heard and understood and calm everything down? Because what they're hearing, their whole nervous system is, is going, "Hey, you're safe here. You're not threatened. You don't have to, uh, continue to give all the evidence, all the reasoning, all the justification," uh, and over talk, over explain, and they go, "Oh my gosh, this person gets it. They, they, they, they get it. They, they, they understand." Like I, I want you to under-- to receive this concept for a second. I- if somebody says something to you and you go, "I get it. I really do. I get it," does it make you feel like they really get it, or they're just trying to, like, placate you? They're, they're just trying to push it on. They go, "Ah, I get it." Verbalizing I get it doesn't do it. They will feel I get it when you use words that actually affirm what they just said. So often I'll have people who go, "Jefferson, you know, my spouse said something to me, and I just, I didn't know what to say, so I just kinda go quiet." And I go, "You know exactly what to say because they just told you. All you need to do is repeat either back to them or tell them that that's okay to feel." Most of the time in relational arguments, I'm talking people you are married to, in a relationship with, um, and, and, um, work relationships, in any kind, okay? That... Romantic, non-romantic. That- They are in many ways just wanting to feel as though you get it. And how we do that is by telling them it's okay to feel that way. So many arguments in my life have been created because I skipped over that fact. I

5. 6:35 – 7:35

   Stop telling people how to feel (and why “calm down” backfires)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:35

      chose instead to tell somebody how to feel. I go, "What do you, what do you mean you're concerned about that?" And I start arguing with them about why they shouldn't be concerned about that, why they shouldn't be afraid of that, why I think that's a stupid idea for them to be worried about that, and how, you know, I think it's dumb that this is how... And listen, this has crushed me, all right? Because I'm missing it. I'm missing the plot when that happens, when I go into telling them how they should feel. That never works. Wh- when you tell somebody, "Calm-- you need to calm down," does that ever work? No. It only confirms with them that what they're feeling isn't okay, isn't safe, and what does that do to their nervous system? It just erupts it. Erupts it. You'll just have a volcano of emotion because you had the chance to put out that fire and instead you poured gasoline on it. And in, uh, in the process, you, you, you created more of a rupture.

6. 7:35 – 9:06

   Sponsor break: Timeline (Mitopure)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher7:35

      You created more distrust. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Timeline. Now, when we talk about aging well, we usually think of things like diet, exercise, sleep. Well, those are all well and good, but what I want us to do is also have to keep looking down at the cellular level. That's right. You know it, the mitochondria. If you remember from school, mitochondria, the powerhouse of the cell. Well, it's actually a real thing. And in fact, if you might be aging and go, "I feel like I don't have as much energy," yeah, that's, that's because mitochondria can actually get old and damaged. And that's why I've been taking Mitopure from Timeline. It's a small little like tapioca gummy that tastes excellent, actually. You can say you can take up to four. I always take four. [chuckles] That's how good they taste. And what they do, it's one of this clinically, uh, proven research that they've been putting into to help clean out old mitochondria to renew the energy that you have. So Timeline has spent over 15 years researching mitochondrial health, and in human clinical studies, people saw improvements in muscle strength and energy without changing their routine, which is awesome. For me, this is about staying strong, staying sharp, and feeling like myself as I continue to get older. Timeline's clinically proven formula is now available at a new lower price. Mitopure now starts at $79 when you go to timeline.com/jefferson. Go to timeline.com/jefferson to learn more. Now, let's keep going. So when I say they've already told you what to say, here's what I mean by that. If somebody

7. 9:06 – 11:07

   Don’t make it an “accuracy contest”: get under the surface issue

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:06

      in your life is making a statement about, "Hey, um, you know, I, I really feel frustrated when you do X, Y, and Z," or maybe they don't even give it a name. They don't even say frustration. They say, "I really don't like, uh, that you come home late. You're always home late, and you never seem to be on time." Rather than you fighting these-- go into the accuracy of the statement, right? That's what we wanna do first. We wanna go, "Hold up. When's the last time that I've done that?" And they go, "I wasn't late last night." And they go, "Yeah, but you were late the night before." And you go, "But that's-- But, okay, well, the week before..." And it becomes what? An accuracy contest. Who has the better memory? Why, why are you doing that? Because you're wanting to discount what they're saying. You're going to the facts and the accuracy of what's there. You're missing it. That's not the issue. It's not about the milk, okay? It is about the feeling underneath. And instead of trying to go, "That's not true. No, I'm not. I'm not that late. What are you talking about? I'm, I'm here all the time." Rather than that, it is pausing and go, "I can see how that would be really frustrating. I can see how that would make you feel like I don't wanna be here. Yeah, that makes total sense to me," or, "I hear that. That makes sense." Or, "Of course you feel that way. I, I, I, I, I can hear all of that." You see how when I say those statements, the other person is going to drop their shoulders and get it because the issue is not that you were late, okay? The issue is it makes them feel something. What is that feeling? As though you're not with them, you don't wanna be around them, you're avoiding them, and it's gonna feed into this all the fear and insecurity of everything else. Now, my, my issue is not that

8. 11:07 – 13:38

   Affirmation phrases that work (and why “I understand” can fail)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher11:07

      I'm late. I've done tons of other things, believe me, that I have had to start scratching the surface, and I realize, man, I'm just fighting about the milk. I'm just fighting up here, and I'm missing it. Jefferson, you're missing it. And what is the key to doing that? Is to simply affirm. So three, I wanna give you some af- affirmation statements, some affirming phrases that are gonna help you like they've helped me. I've already mentioned a few, and these are ones that I want you to imagine, and you can come up with any of your own, but what you're doing is the goal is to tell the other person that what they are feeling is okay. All right? What they're thinking is okay. That it's all right for them, that their emotions are not too much, and you can handle it, and you're a safe place. You're a person who can absorb and take and sit with these emotions rather than discounting them and telling them how stupid they are and how they should feel something else that makes you more comfortable with it. Hey, I'm preaching to the choir here too. All right? So what are some affirming phrases? These are phrases that, uh, typically begin with what you hear, right? Or I see. Uh, same with the, the, the senses, what we talk about in disagreements. Instead of I disagree, I see things differently. So it could be as simple as, "I hear that. I hear you." Easy as that. It's not I understand. Is it-- Hear me out. Distinction. Not I understand, because when you say that, you're going, "Everything you feel is everything I feel. I g- I get it." And they go, "No, you don't. You don't understand." Right? That, that's-- It's, it's-- Don't ever try to equate what you have felt in your life with somebody who's feeling right now. I know it might be extremely well-intentioned, but it's not going to land nearly as well, okay? It is best not to say I understand unless it is some type of directive or some type of plan that you're putting in place and going, "Are, are we all on the same page here?" Right now, we're affirming, and that means I hear you. I hear that. That makes sense. I c- I can see why you feel that way. I can see how you feel that way. Like, you, you hear how I am-- I-- It's like I'm check marking their state of mind. I'm check marking their feeling in that moment. Here's the--

9. 13:38 – 15:10

   When you don’t feel like validating: the “minimal viable response”

   1. JFJefferson Fisher13:38

      And there's lots of phrases, and I, I've-- I feel like I've given you enough to understand here. H-here's what I need you to cue in on, so just focus in with me for a second. You're gonna get it wrong. It's gonna happen. Go back to that phrase, whatever affirming phrase makes sense to you. Here's what I'm gonna double down on. There's gonna be times you don't feel like it. Ooh. There's gonna be some times, y'all, you don't feel like it. You just, you're angry, you're frustrated, you're mad about what they did, and how dare they mess up my day. And, you know, it's just like them to bring this up. They're always bringing this up. That's gonna happen. You're gonna get into these, these mindsets, these modes that are going to, um, you know, can be destructive. When that happens, and it will, because what it's saying is now you're getting flooded, right? You're-- Now you're getting in a bad place, and it's gonna erupt on your side. When that happens, I need you to go to what I call the minimal viable response, right? That's, uh, that's a play on words from in, um, in tech, they say minimum viable product. Like l-l-- just get the prototype out. Just you can't be perfect. Don't try to be fancy. We're not looking for the best, the perfect. We're just looking for something. Something. Because something is better than nothing, right? So I,

10. 15:10 – 16:41

    Sponsor break: Monarch Money

    1. JFJefferson Fisher15:10

       when I feel like I'm getting flooded in the argument, I-- my go-to phrase is, "I hear you." That's it. That's just my go-to phrase. You need to have a go-to phrase that you affirm in the argument. In fact, if you use that phrase, most likely you will not have an argument because you are, you are affirming what they're saying. Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Monarch. Well, I don't know about you, but tax season is now behind us, and now is one of those times where you get to stop and look at everything and go, "Where did it all go?" [chuckles] So that's when I catch myself, and I go, "How can we help with this?" Monarch Money is that solution because I don't know about you, but I don't want to just look back. I also want to make progress, and that's why I love Monarch. It shows me where my money's going all in one single place. Simplify your finances with Monarch. Monarch is the all-in-one personal finance tool designed to make your life easier. What it does is it brings your entire fin-financial life, so think budgeting, accounts, investments, net worth, future planning, together in one dashboard, all on your phone or on your laptop. Feel aware and in control of your finances this tax season and get 50% off your Monarch subscription with the code JEFFERSON. See everything all at once, all in a dashboard, and give yourself the peace that you need. Achieve your financial goals for good with Monarch, the all-in-one tool that makes money management simple. Use code JEFFERSON at monarch.com for half off your first year. That's

11. 16:41 – 19:45

    Affirming isn’t surrender: when and how to share your side

    1. JFJefferson Fisher16:41

       50% off at monarch.com, code JEFFERSON. Now, let's keep going. Right now, I know that you're going, "Well, Jefferson, but they're wrong. You mean I just have to agree with them? You mean I have to just go with it and lay down and let them walk over me?" No, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is there is a time to raise your point, and it's not as soon as they have raised their flag and their complaint. It's not when you get to shut it right down and tell them how wrong they are. "That's, that's not what I said. That's not right. Yeah, but that's, that's not at all-- Yeah, but what about..." No, we're not gonna point the finger right at them again. Instead, we're going to affirm, and we're gonna say, "You know what? If, if that's how it came across to you, that, that makes sense why you'd feel that way." Awesome affirming statement. And they're gonna go, "Thank you." Right? Maybe they're gonna keep talking. You affirm again. They might talk a little bit more. You affirm again. You are telling their system, "We're good here. This is a safe place." And then you're gonna know when it's time that you're gonna ask something. We're gonna connect the bridge. This is a bridge now to what you want to share, and we're going to ask. We're gonna say, "Can I share where I was coming from? Can I share my intention when I did that? Are you open to me telling you what I-- how I experienced that?" Can you hear the difference of me going, "What are you, what are you talking about? That's, that's not at all what happened," versus affirming and saying- Whenever you're ready, I'd like to share my thinking of what, what's happening, my perspective. Can I share with you my perspective of what I see or what I did or what my intention was or the thought behind that?" And they're going to go, "Yes." And then you get to share your perspective, and hopefully the other person's going to affirm you. If they don't, understand it has been argument avoided, mischief managed. All right? When you're able to share your perspective in a way that talks from, "I see where you're coming from. Got that. Instead of telling you your point is wrong, I'm gonna ask if I can share my perspective." Rather than just flopping it onto you and saying, "Eat this," I'm going to tell you or ask, "I'd like to, I'd like to share where I was coming from when I said that. I'd like to share my perspective or give my perspective or give you another take. Can I give you another way of thinking about that?" That is such a better way. I, I have in my own life diffused many would-be arguments by affirming, bridging, and sharing my perspective, but I have to affirm first. And if I mess up, and I will mess up, I

12. 19:45 – 21:17

    The ‘affirm → bridge → perspective’ model in marriage and at work

    1. JFJefferson Fisher19:45

       find that the quicker I can get to affirming and stopping myself from just putting my flag in the ground, drawing the line in the sand, and I can get faster at putting down my sword and my shield, the shorter those little blips and those arguments, that really the big moments just become speed bumps, right? Where you, you're able to feel it, understand it, get it, and then resolve it, and that's, that's what we're going for. So l- let me give you some different perspectives. We talk about marriage from my own life, my own world, so that's every day, a- anything, especially if you have kids, don't have kids, or you're boyfriend, girlfriend, whatever it is, um, and you are dealing with difference of opinion, affirm, bridge to your perspective. If you're at work, okay, and somebody has a different idea about something, rather than telling them their idea is dumb and how you think that it's, you know, they shouldn't at all be worried about that looming whatever coming up, affirm that, "You know what? I, I can see why that would concern you. I can see, I can hear that that- that's a really frustrating moment, and it sounds like something that's really been bothering you for a while." Affirm that statement, then bridge. "Can I give you a different way of looking about that? Can I share with you how I see that?" It just is gonna pull everything down. Everybody's shoulders start to drop. Voices start to

13. 21:17 – 23:20

    Wrap-up, calls to subscribe, and sponsor mention (Cozy Earth)

    1. JFJefferson Fisher21:17

       lower. And you know what? What could have been an argument just turns into a conversation, and that's what we're looking for, a nice, wonderful conversation. Hope you don't mind if I shared that with you today. This was something that was on my heart, and I thought, "You know what? I'm gonna just say what's up to y'all in the truck." Wherever you're watching, wherever you're listening, if you would, if you find that this content is valuable to you, I'm going to ask that wherever you're listening, you please subscribe. Press the button that says Subscribe. It doesn't cost anything. Or like or heart or comment. Any of that stuff helps. It's all good. You see the car seats in the back? No? I can't... My son has another one, but they're getting big, y'all. People, there's some who are watching this podcast who know that I started with them in car seats, and now we're in booster seats. Um, it's the circle of life, y'all. We're, we're, we're getting older. This is a podcast that's gonna be sponsored by Cozy Earth. I have to tell you, y'all, there is a product that we got from Cozy Earth. Just hear me out. [chuckles] It's a blanket. All right? And it's called the Cuddle Blanket, and I was very skeptical about this name, and I was like, "Who wants to cuddle, you know, under a cuddle blanket?" Ah. It's not about cuddling with somebody else. It's about cuddling with the blanket itself. It is the softest. It has, like, weight to it. We fight over it in our house, and it's huge, but we still... Right now it's the talk of our evenings of who, [chuckles] who gets to use the blanket. So that's, that's for you. I promise it's worth trying. Don't, don't hate on the blanket. Don't knock it till you try it. Believe me, didn't think I'd ever be talking about a blanket on here, but here it is. All right. cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code JEFFERSON for up to 20% off. cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code JEFFERSON for up to 20% off. Affirm. Have a mindset. Have the mindset they are not fighting you. They're fighting to be heard by you.

14. 23:20 – 23:36

    Final recap: don’t get defensive—affirm, use a go-to phrase, then bridge

    1. JFJefferson Fisher23:20

       We're gonna use affirming phrases. We're gonna have our go-to phrases, and we're going to bridge to our own perspective, and that is going to reduce the relational arguments in your life. If you want to lose an argument, the fastest way to do it is to start one. Be good.

Episode duration: 23:36