What You Need To Do When You Get Emotionally Triggered

1. 0:00 – 0:31

   “Put it down”: stopping the reflex to take things personally

   1. JFJefferson Fisher0:00

      How do you not get triggered emotionally though in life?

   2. SPSpeaker0:03

      Mm.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher0:03

      Like, personally, if someone's coming at you or attacking you or making you wrong, how do you keep your cool and not get defensive and take things personally? Or do you?

   4. SPSpeaker0:14

      It's very natural to take things personally, but what I say n- before I want to take things personally is I'll say, I'll say, "Put it down, Jefferson." I'll say, "Put it down." Most of the time when we're taking something personally, we're picking something up that nobody asked us to carry.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher0:31

      Mm.

2. 0:31 – 1:21

   Grace as the antidote to emotional triggers

   1. SPSpeaker0:31

      And we're just choosing to hold on to it, choosing to say, "This was meant for me," and that's not always the case. And too many times we get... Somebody says, "Why are you taking this so personally?" And they turn around and we're holding it all. Like, "Whoa, whoa, why are you holding that? I didn't ask you to hold any of that." So you, you, you get in a position to where the how personal you take something is a direct reflection of how much grace you give other people.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher1:00

      Mm.

   3. SPSpeaker1:01

      And if I start to take things too personally, "Oh, well, somebody's just going slow in front of me on purpose. Uh, they're showing up late 'cause they wanna show a sign to me." It's just all these different ways of treating things negatively, for the most part, we take it personally, when the- that's... You just drop it. Drop that thought because you're not giving them enough grace.

3. 1:21 – 2:24

   Where the calm comes from: upbringing, mediation, and persuasion skills

   1. JFJefferson Fisher1:21

      When did you learn to let things go and put things down? Did you have this calm about you as a kid, or did something over time help you realize, "Oh, God, I don't need to hold onto this baggage or-"

   2. SPSpeaker1:36

      Right

   3. JFJefferson Fisher1:36

      ... stress?"

   4. SPSpeaker1:37

      It- it's just been a... As if it's a, just blacksmith hitting on a piece of hot metal, man. I just... My whole life has been that, from-

   5. JFJefferson Fisher1:48

      Really?

   6. SPSpeaker1:48

      Yeah. From my upbringing, a lot of attorneys in the family. I'm the oldest of four. I loved being the big brother. That meant I did do a lot of mediating with siblings, a lot of... I m- I, I was the kid in the corner who just got to hear all the courtroom stories, and so they would teach you how to project and how to present and how to persuade and how to add pace, and I mean, it was, it was awesome. And that just kinda translated with what, what I like. Some people are really good at math or economics or accounting. Not me.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher2:21

      Yeah. [laughs]

   8. SPSpeaker2:21

      Th- this, this is my thing.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher2:23

      Sure, sure.

   10. SPSpeaker2:23

       Yeah.

4. 2:24 – 3:20

   Rethinking “winning”: arguments as a path to understanding

   1. JFJefferson Fisher2:24

      I think a lot of people in today's world want to be great at winning arguments. What would you say if you wanted to win an argument would be the three keys to set yourself up for success?

   2. SPSpeaker2:42

      Number one would be understand that arguments aren't always meant to be won. So there's a, a trap of thinking that y- there can only be one on top of the mountain, and if that is true, then that's a very lonely place to be. And arguments, in my view, are an opportunity to create understanding. It's okay to have conflict. Uh, you and I can argue about something, but when it gets negative, that's when it's bad. You and I could argue of who's the best baseball team, and you know, that's a disagreement. That ratchets up a little bit more and becomes an argument. Maybe we get a little bit more passioned.

   3. JFJefferson Fisher3:20

      Sure.

5. 3:20 – 4:30

   Set the destination: clarify the real issue and the end goal

   1. SPSpeaker3:20

      But number one is that don't get into the trap of thinking that you have to win it, because when you do, just, it's only gonna breed contempt 'cause it comes at a cost. And maybe you made fun of them. Maybe you said something that was, you know, too final, too close to the, to the vest. So number two is know what the end goal is. Oftentimes we get into this argument, and then what happens? We're like 10 minutes into it, and we go, "How did we start this? How did we even get here? What, what were we arguing about in the first place?"

   2. JFJefferson Fisher3:52

      Right, right, right, right.

   3. SPSpeaker3:53

      And that meant that it wasn't real. Most of the time when that happens, it means that the true issue you were arguing about was just a red herring. That's just the surface. So it's, it, it... You have to know where you're gonna go in the argument, so what, what the final outcome is, and number two, how are you gonna heal it? Because if it's an issue of especially of emotion, if you don't heal it in a way that is going to continue to create that, that positive understanding and interaction, you, you will, you will lose every time.

6. 4:30 – 6:04

   Healing the rupture: accountability without scorekeeping

   1. JFJefferson Fisher4:30

      How to heal the argument or how to heal the disagreement or whatever is happening-

   2. SPSpeaker4:33

      Yes

   3. JFJefferson Fisher4:33

      ... between you and the other person.

   4. SPSpeaker4:35

      Right, right, which involves taking accountability for what your behavior has done.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher4:39

      Yeah.

   6. SPSpeaker4:40

      It... One of the worst ways to do that is say, "Well, I would've done it had you not done," right? If, say, "I would've... I wouldn't have said this had you not said that."

   7. JFJefferson Fisher4:49

      Right.

   8. SPSpeaker4:49

      No. No, you don't need to... Once you start tallying who did what, you're, you're already in a losing situation. The, the, the correct response is, "I'm sorry that I said this. I could've done better," and that ac- ex- that acknowledgment of, "I shouldn't have said that. I didn't mean that. I'm gonna do better."

   9. JFJefferson Fisher5:14

      Yeah.

   10. SPSpeaker5:14

       Just that little promise says, "I'm, I'm wanting to heal this," rather than, uh, go, go-

   11. JFJefferson Fisher5:21

       Go

   12. SPSpeaker5:21

       ... kick rocks.

   13. JFJefferson Fisher5:22

       Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

   14. SPSpeaker5:23

       Yeah. Yeah.

   15. JFJefferson Fisher5:23

       I'm curious. You know, it sounds like something that... That type of language sounds like something that would work really well in an intimate relationship, a partner, uh, s- you know, in a marriage if people spoke like that.

   16. SPSpeaker5:38

       Yeah.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher5:38

       "Hey, I didn't mean it like that. I'm really sorry. I'm sorry if that hurt you."

   18. SPSpeaker5:42

       Right.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher5:42

       "That's not what I really meant."

   20. SPSpeaker5:43

       Yeah.

   21. JFJefferson Fisher5:44

       I'm sure that would help heal and mend arguments and disagreements in a beautiful, loving way. I'm curious from your experience, you've been married 11 years now, is that correct?

   22. SPSpeaker5:54

       11, yeah.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher5:55

       You've been doing trial law for how long?

   24. SPSpeaker5:58

       Eight.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher5:58

       Eight years, okay, so-

   26. SPSpeaker6:00

       Uh, yeah, about 10, 10 years. Yeah.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher6:02

       Roughly about the same time.

   28. SPSpeaker6:03

       Yeah.

7. 6:04 – 7:46

   Marriage vs. courtroom: emotional control at work, human moments at home

   1. JFJefferson Fisher6:04

      What is the number one skill you bring to trial law ... that you aren't as good in marriage and relationships, and what is the number one thing you do well in your marriage that you wish you did better in trial law?

   2. SPSpeaker6:21

      Hmm. In the first scenario of what do I do well at court that I don't do well at home?

   3. JFJefferson Fisher6:26

      Or not as well.

   4. SPSpeaker6:27

      Yeah, not as well. Manage my emotions.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher6:30

      You manage emotions really well at court.

   6. SPSpeaker6:32

      Yes. You have to. I can't, I can't be, I can't be acting a fool.

   7. JFJefferson Fisher6:37

      Right. [laughs]

   8. SPSpeaker6:37

      You know, you know what I'm saying? Like, there- there's too, there's too much, there's too much a- at stake and, and y- your, your, as a profession, that- that's not a place to be doing that. And versus at home, yeah, I get mad about, I mean, all kinds of things.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher6:51

      Really?

   10. SPSpeaker6:51

       Yeah. I mean, we, we... I- I'm human. I mean, but of course, I'm not somebody who lashes out. I'm not, I'm not a big emotionally reactive, uh, person. I'm, I'm pretty much like this.

   11. JFJefferson Fisher7:03

       Yeah.

   12. SPSpeaker7:03

       But that doesn't mean that the fifth time my, you know, my son's asked me to, uh, for a popsicle, that it's, "No, man, it's after bedtime. We've already eaten one today. It's, it's time to go to bed."

   13. JFJefferson Fisher7:17

       I've already said no.

   14. SPSpeaker7:17

       Yeah, yeah, we've al- I've already said no. And like, you just, it's easy to-

   15. JFJefferson Fisher7:21

       Ugh

   16. SPSpeaker7:21

       ... try and get that. So dealing with those emotions. And I, I also think a lot of that is home is a safe place to express and feel your emotions.

   17. JFJefferson Fisher7:30

       Right

   18. SPSpeaker7:30

       Versus in the workplace, not so much.

   19. JFJefferson Fisher7:33

       You may not succeed as well-

   20. SPSpeaker7:35

       You got it

   21. JFJefferson Fisher7:35

       ... in your career or accelerate your career.

   22. SPSpeaker7:36

       Not mine.

   23. JFJefferson Fisher7:37

       Yeah, exactly.

   24. SPSpeaker7:38

       Yeah, yeah. If, if you are, because if you're always emotionally reactive in my profession, you're just seen as a hothead and somebody that nobody can work with.

   25. JFJefferson Fisher7:45

       Not credible.

   26. SPSpeaker7:45

       No.

   27. JFJefferson Fisher7:46

       No.

8. 7:46 – 9:10

   Why their disagreements are “efficient”: quick apologies and clean repair

   1. SPSpeaker7:46

      Not, not credible. On the flip side of it, what do I do well at home that I don't do nearly as well in the, in the workplace? Man, that's, that's hard. I feel like what we do really well at home is sometimes have, like, very direct, fast arguments. And my wife's also an attorney.

   2. JFJefferson Fisher8:07

      Oh, man. [laughs]

   3. SPSpeaker8:07

      Yeah. Yeah. [laughs]

   4. JFJefferson Fisher8:08

      So you both got your case.

   5. SPSpeaker8:09

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   6. JFJefferson Fisher8:09

      You're both... [laughs]

   7. SPSpeaker8:10

      So, but our arguments are extremely efficient. Like, they, I, I can't, I can count on one hand the amount of times they've actually been, like, long.

   8. JFJefferson Fisher8:18

      Really?

   9. SPSpeaker8:19

      Yeah. Uh, it's typically pretty, pretty quick.

   10. JFJefferson Fisher8:22

       How do you, how do you create quick arguments? How do you end arguments quickly?

   11. SPSpeaker8:27

       Quick apologies.

   12. JFJefferson Fisher8:28

       Really? And you both apologize fast?

   13. SPSpeaker8:31

       Yes, but, mm, but we will kind of package it. We- It's not like we have a formula or like a, "Let's go to the book."

   14. JFJefferson Fisher8:37

       Right. [laughs]

   15. SPSpeaker8:37

       No, it's not. This is what we've, like, developed over time is, uh, when I heard you say this, it made me think this. I didn't mean that. Okay, well, I'll, I will next time I will try to ask you this before I go there.

   16. JFJefferson Fisher8:51

       I won't make an assumption.

   17. SPSpeaker8:52

       You got it.

   18. JFJefferson Fisher8:53

       I won't get upset right away without asking you further-

   19. SPSpeaker8:56

       Yeah

   20. JFJefferson Fisher8:56

       ... interrogations. Yeah. [laughs]

   21. SPSpeaker8:59

       Yeah, yeah. You got it. Oh, yeah. I, I can't tell you how many times I'll hear, like, "Stop cross-examining me."

   22. JFJefferson Fisher9:02

       [laughs]

   23. SPSpeaker9:03

       Like, she, she can pick it up immediately, and I don't mean to do it.

   24. JFJefferson Fisher9:06

       Yeah.

   25. SPSpeaker9:06

       It's just happening. But-

   26. JFJefferson Fisher9:07

       Sure

   27. SPSpeaker9:07

       ... yeah.

   28. JFJefferson Fisher9:08

       Okay

   29. SPSpeaker9:08

       She, she quickly shuts that down.

9. 9:10 – 10:53

   Ethical persuasion: make people feel they gain (not lose)

   1. JFJefferson Fisher9:10

      What is a, a top strategy or technique that you've learned ethically to get what you want from people, to persuade, influence, and enroll others, strangers or people you know very well, in getting something you want?

   2. SPSpeaker9:29

      You have to give them a reason to wanna give it to you, and it needs to come from a place of making them happy to do so. And when it becomes a, a place of rather a negotiation, which makes them feel like they've lost something, you couch it and frame it in a way that feels like they've gained something. And so if you and I are across the table in a negotiation, whatever you give, you've lost. But if I can say, "You know what, Lewis? Man, and you've just been doing so well. Uh, you hit 3 million on, in YouTube now. I mean, your stuff's just going off the charts. You know what you could be really good at, and I'd love to see, is X, Y, and Z." And all of a sudden it's like a shift of you're sitting on the same t- side of the table as me, and now I'm trying to help you inspire other thoughts that are also aligned with what I want. And that's a much... Now you're gonna say, "Well, that's sounds sneaky." Uh, no, it's, it's not. It's actually getting what you, you need sometimes-

   3. JFJefferson Fisher10:35

      Yeah

   4. SPSpeaker10:36

      ... in a way that is also benefiting the other person.

   5. JFJefferson Fisher10:38

      Right.

   6. SPSpeaker10:38

      I'd much rather that way than say, "I don't like you. You don't like me. We're just gonna have a bloodbath, and have at it."

   7. JFJefferson Fisher10:45

      Sure.

   8. SPSpeaker10:46

      May the, may the best guy win.

   9. JFJefferson Fisher10:47

      Right, right. [laughs]

   10. SPSpeaker10:48

       You know? So just don't ask for a, a, uh, arm wrestle right now. You, you're gonna win that one. [laughs]

   11. JFJefferson Fisher10:53

       [laughs]

10. 10:53 – 12:33

    Negotiation mindset: tactical empathy and surfacing objections early

    1. JFJefferson Fisher10:53

       When you go into a negotiation and you know you're about to negotiate something-

    2. SPSpeaker10:59

       Yeah

    3. JFJefferson Fisher11:00

       ... what is the best intention you should have going into it so that you can create the best outcome for you and the other person still feels like they didn't lose?

    4. SPSpeaker11:11

       The... So Chris Voss' book is fantastic, Never Split the Difference, and one of his, his things about tactical empathy is making the other person feel like you're, you want the best for them, that you're, that you're in their camp, and you're not going to get emotionally reactive in the, in the answer. You're, you, you're already addressing the issues that you're expecting them to, to think of. So like he'll say, "You're probably thinking that X, Y, and Z." You're, it sounds to me like he's already kind of giving these hints of what he's already picking up on, and when you say what already they are thinking in their mind, you pull it out on the table really quickly, and then, and then, and then that's it. What I will do a lot of the times is somebody gives some kind of objection, not like in a legal sense in a courtroom, but I'll say, "Aside from that, aside from what you just said, anything else that I should know about?" They say, "No." Great, and then I'll typically give it, like, a two-path thing. So I will, I will ask more questions, say, "Typically, when I hear that-" Some, it means that th- they really don't wanna talk to me, and that's, that's okay if you're not ready to right now. If there's some they actually do wanna talk about, they're not sure what they wanna say. Is it really one or two for you? And then, then you g- be able to kind of delve for that. But it's inviting them into a way that it's gonna get you what you want at the end.

    5. JFJefferson Fisher12:31

       Right. Right. That's interesting.

    6. SPSpeaker12:33

       Yeah.

11. 12:33 – 14:18

    Confidence in difficult conversations: breathe first, then speak less

    1. JFJefferson Fisher12:33

       And how do you build confidence in conversations with people that are difficult, that are smarter than you potentially, uh, that are older than you? How do you create confidence in challenging conversations to make sure that you're on the same play field with the other person, and you get the results you want in the conversation, whether it's just a conversation or a negotiation?

    2. SPSpeaker13:02

       One would be to do not let defensiveness be your first step. Soon as you take that step, you've lost. Better way to do it is let your breath be the first word that you say. So if you think of your breath as a word, it's, it kind of changes your mind of, "Okay, now I can address this." Because wh- what we'll do is we'll hold our breath like that, and then, I mean, y- you know, this thing kicks in, our nerves. Then, then, then comes in the adrenaline.

    3. JFJefferson Fisher13:32

       Yeah.

    4. SPSpeaker13:32

       Then comes in the defensiveness, and you realized, "I haven't even breathed yet."

    5. JFJefferson Fisher13:37

       [laughs]

    6. SPSpeaker13:38

       You know? And, um, and when it comes to, to, to confidence, of course we can say it's the way you project. It's the way you smile. It's the way you pace your conversation, keeping your voice low, keeping your words slow. It's all these kind of things. It's the perception that I don't have to say anything more than what I need to say. Because oftentimes more words says less. You need to eliminate that.

    7. JFJefferson Fisher14:05

       Right. Right. Less words says more sometimes.

    8. SPSpeaker14:07

       Yeah. I, um, uh... Yeah, every time.

    9. JFJefferson Fisher14:09

       If you enjoyed that clip and wanna see the rest of the conversation, you can click right here, or if you wanna see the latest episode of The Jefferson Fisher Podcast, click right here, and I'll meet you there

Episode duration: 14:18