The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #1095 - TJ English & Joey Diaz
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:49
How Joey Diaz discovered T.J. English’s books (Westies, Havana Nocturne)
Joe introduces Joey Diaz and crime author T.J. English, with Joey explaining how he first found English’s work. They connect English’s writing to the neighborhoods Joey grew up in—places with intense loyalty codes and deep immigrant community identity.
- •Joey’s early exposure to English through Havana Nocturne and later The Westies
- •How Joey reached out to English when he heard about a book on Union City/West New York Cubans
- •Union City framed as a tight-knit enclave with “mafia neighborhood” dynamics
- •Early theme: loyalty tests and community enforcement among young kids
- 2:49 – 3:34
English’s approach to crime history writing: macro context + intimate character stories
English outlines how he builds narratives: he pairs broad political/social history with personal, ground-level character arcs. He also describes the core practical challenge—getting people to reveal what they’ve hidden for decades.
- •Combining sociopolitical history with interpersonal storytelling
- •Finding sources willing to talk despite lifetime secrecy
- •Why the “human beings caught in something bigger” angle matters
- •Joe’s curiosity about how deep reporting translates into readable narrative
- 3:34 – 4:35
How long the research takes—and why a 125-page proposal can sell the project
Joe asks about the writing process, and English breaks down the time split between research and drafting. He explains how detailed proposals work in publishing and how they can even trigger movie options before the book is written.
- •Typical timeline: ~3 years total, ~2 years research
- •Proposal structure: chapter-by-chapter ‘compressed book’
- •Using proposal detail to increase advances and attract film interest
- •The Corporation optioned before English began writing the full book
- 4:35 – 6:07
What “The Corporation” was: Cuban-American bolita empire under Jose Miguel Battle
English introduces The Corporation: a long-running Cuban-American organized crime network led by Bay of Pigs veteran Jose Miguel Battle. He explains bolita (the numbers game), why it prints money, and how it became a backbone of Cuban communities on the East Coast.
- •Battle’s post–Bay of Pigs trajectory into criminal power
- •Bolita/numbers as a massive pre-lottery gambling market
- •Geographic scope: New Jersey/New York down to Miami
- •Profit scale: millions monthly; billions over the organization’s life
- 6:07 – 8:05
Alliance with the Italian Mafia: Trafficante, Fat Tony Salerno, and ‘owning’ bolita
Joe presses on how Cubans could dominate a racket Italians also ran, and English explains the partnership model. Battle leverages Havana mob connections, negotiates territory, and delivers revenue to the Five Families—until greed and conflict erupt.
- •Battle’s Havana vice-cop background and mob relationships
- •Trafficante as connector to Fat Tony Salerno
- •The pitch: Cubans control Cuban bettors; Mafia gets a cut
- •The system’s scale: hundreds of bolita spots in NYC alone
- 8:05 – 14:01
Joey’s childhood inside the numbers world: runners, dream books, and community mysticism
Joey describes growing up inside bolita culture—running errands as a child and watching how numbers were woven into everyday life. The conversation highlights the spiritual and psychological role of the numbers as hope for working-class immigrant communities.
- •Joey as a child runner making money moving between boroughs
- •Dream interpretation books mapping symbols to numbers
- •Numbers as immigrant ‘religion’: hope, routine, and belief
- •Boliteros as ‘dream makers’ with high community status
- 14:01 – 17:18
When money turns violent: internal killings, revenge culture, and Battle’s legend
English explains how Battle’s heroic Bay of Pigs reputation insulated him even as he became ruthless. He details the revenge-driven violence, including long-running assassination campaigns and the logic of eliminating threats—even years later.
- •English verifying Bay of Pigs heroism by traveling to the site and interviewing witnesses
- •Battle’s charisma and community protection despite brutality
- •Revenge as a defining cultural/organizational motivator
- •Example: multi-year pursuit and hospital assassination tactics
- 17:18 – 34:38
Bay of Pigs fallout and the CIA/Cuban exile pipeline: Watergate, terrorism, and JFK theories
The discussion widens into Cold War history: CIA collaboration with Cuban exile networks and the recurring pattern of “dirty work” framed as steps toward killing Castro. They connect Bay of Pigs veterans to events like Watergate and explore why these alliances became a hidden through-line of late 20th-century U.S. politics.
- •Kennedy withholding air cover and exile resentment
- •Marita Lorenz, Sturgis, and CIA assassination attempts on Castro
- •Watergate burglars and Bay of Pigs veterans recruited by E. Howard Hunt
- •Anti-Castro underground terrorism: bombings, assassinations, and the logic of destabilization
- •JFK assassination speculation tied to CIA/Cuban/mob intersections
- 34:38 – 39:14
Joey’s street training: surveillance instincts, code language, and living under threat
Joey explains the practical paranoia of growing up around illegal gambling—varying routes home, watching cars, and learning coded street Spanish. The conversation turns to how criminals intimidate through family leverage and why kids in that world are trained to stay silent.
- •Never walking home the same way; spotting suspicious behavior
- •Street Spanish as coded communication (nicknames, phrases, signals)
- •Children as pressure points: kidnapping and intimidation logic
- •Stormy Daniels anecdote used to illustrate intimidation tactics
- •Joey’s rule: never repeat what you hear; never ‘correct’ people publicly
- 39:14 – 41:54
Local corruption up close: payoffs, friendly arrests, judges ‘owned,’ and politics as a racket
Joey and English describe corruption as an everyday operating cost: cops warning before raids, envelope payments, and ‘shared’ profits after staged busts. Joey explains why this made him permanently cynical about politics—he watched the machinery at street level.
- •Phone calls warning of raids; cleaning out cash/paperwork
- •Staged arrests and kickbacks from confiscated money
- •Judges and local officials allegedly controlled by gambling money
- •Joey’s view: small-town political donations mirror national influence structures
- •Joe’s story of his grandmother jailed for numbers, refusing to cooperate
- 41:54 – 54:26
Why the Corporation lasted—and the ‘untouchable’ CIA mystique
English challenges the idea that organized crime disappeared, arguing it evolved with new immigrant waves and enduring corruption templates. He then answers why Battle’s organization lasted so long: discretion, compartmentalization, and—critically—political protection tied to anti-Castro credentials.
- •Old ethnic mobs fade; new immigrant groups fill the vacuum
- •Prohibition created the enduring underworld/upperworld template
- •Battle-era protection: agencies reluctant to prosecute Bay of Pigs veterans
- •Treasury letter example: refusing to pursue Battle due to anti-Castro status
- •Joey’s details on territorial control and low-profile operating style
- 54:26 – 1:09:30
How bolita actually worked: racetrack numbers, early/late systems, laundering, and modern scams
They get technical about the mechanics: where the daily number came from (racetrack handle published in papers), how bettors placed and verified bets, and how large operations moved money. The conversation also touches on laundering via lotteries and contrasts old-school enforcement with modern cyber scams.
- •Daily number derived from the last three digits of racetrack betting totals
- •Operational advantage: someone at the track to learn numbers instantly
- •Rules to keep mafia peace: no sports betting; violations punished by death
- •Puerto Rican lottery used to launder bolita profits
- •USA Today lottery hacker story: cyber fraud vs. mob retaliation
- 1:09:30 – 1:34:56
The Two Block Rule war: arson campaigns, civilian deaths, and federal heat
English describes the late-stage collapse into open conflict when an agreement between Italians and Cubans was violated. The result is a brutal arson-and-murder cycle that kills innocents, draws federal attention, and accelerates the organization’s downfall.
- •Battle relocates leadership to Miami while NYC continues generating cash
- •Two Block Rule: no bolita spot within two blocks of another
- •Escalation: firebombings, murders, and horrific deaths including children
- •A failed sit-down followed immediately by a drive-by shooting
- •A key arsonist later becomes an informant, exposing the mechanics
- 1:34:56 – 2:01:01
Santería and ‘war of the saints’: belief, protection rituals, and criminal exploitation
The conversation shifts into Afro-Cuban religion as both cultural foundation and a tool criminals tried to weaponize. Joey explains Santería’s origins and his own initiation, while English ties it to assassination lore—belief in spiritual protection affecting how killers planned hits.
- •Santería’s African (Yoruba) roots blended with Catholic symbolism
- •Joey’s childhood initiation: rituals, white clothing, behavioral prohibitions
- •Criminals using readings/rituals as ‘decision tools’ for trafficking and violence
- •Pololu saga includes beliefs about spiritual protection and counter-rituals (bembe)
- •Ernestico’s taped call with his priestess mother becomes evidence after his death
- 2:01:01 – 2:16:44
Cuban cultural gravity: music, Havana sensuality, guaguancó dance, and hidden histories
They end in a wide-ranging cultural riff: how Cuba’s music and sensual social energy ‘hooks’ visitors, and how dance, drumming, and Santería overlap. Joey plays a guaguancó clip to illustrate seduction-as-performance, while English explains how culture is inseparable from the history he writes.
- •English’s immersion: Havana trips, Latin jazz curation, and cultural ‘embrace’ as research method
- •Guaguancó as seduction dance; gestures and playful boundaries
- •Santería ceremony soundscape: drumming, shekere, chanting
- •Havana as ‘what happens there stays there’—politicians, mob, nightlife
- •Transition into darker Havana lore: Shanghai Theater and ‘Superman of Havana’
- 2:16:44 – 2:32:09
Abakuá brotherhood, masculinity codes, and Cuba’s changing social norms
Joey introduces Abakuá, a secretive male society tied to docks/longshore culture and strict codes of respect and masculinity. They explore how these traditions have diluted over time and discuss Cuba’s isolated-but-real social evolution, including limited internet access and increasing progressivism.
- •Abakuá described as a powerful male code society with its own language/patois
- •Strict respect rules; consequences for public disrespect
- •Cuba’s gradual cultural changes despite isolation
- •Limited modern internet access but increasing exposure and evolution
- •Travel practicality now (JetBlue), but embargo quirks remain (cigars)
