CHAPTERS
- 0:01 – 1:24
Viral protest at Antler: the venison butchering that sparked outrage
Joe introduces Michael Hunter and the viral clip of him butchering a deer leg in front of vegan protesters outside his Toronto restaurant, Antler. Michael explains the incident wasn’t staged—it was a fed-up reaction after repeated disruptions.
- •How Joe first discovered the story online
- •What happened the day Michael butchered venison outside
- •Why the clip resonated and spread quickly
- •The central question: why target Antler specifically?
- 1:24 – 4:07
How it began: “Venison is the new kale” and a cyclist’s complaint
Michael traces the conflict back to a chalkboard sign outside the 45-seat restaurant. A vegan cyclist took offense, and soon organized protesters began showing up regularly.
- •Antler’s playful chalkboard messaging and neighborhood banter
- •The exact slogan that triggered the initial reaction
- •Early protests: small and relatively calm
- •Confusion because Antler also serves vegan/vegetarian options
- 4:07 – 4:50
Escalation: shouting at guests, police presence, and an extortion-like demand
As the protests grew, they shifted from passive signs to aggressive harassment of customers and staff. Michael describes calling police for safety and being given an ultimatum to post the activists’ slogan in the window to make protests stop.
- •Protests growing from a few people to 10–15+
- •Guests being yelled at and called “murderers”
- •Police involvement and the megaphone turning point
- •The demand to post an anti-meat message in the window
- 4:50 – 7:22
Ethical meat vs. ‘all meat is murder’: why Antler became an ideological target
Joe and Michael discuss the activists’ belief that ethical farming doesn’t exist. Michael argues for sustainable, local sourcing and challenges the use of ‘murder’ as a term for animals.
- •Antler’s emphasis on local, sustainable sourcing
- •Activist belief: no such thing as ethical farming
- •Semantic argument around the word “murder”
- •Why a pro-ethical-meat stance can attract more scrutiny
- 7:22 – 9:53
The factory farming problem—and why hunting/ethical sourcing is a different conversation
Joe acknowledges that factory farming is a legitimate moral and environmental issue, and Michael agrees it’s a key driver behind vegan activism. They argue the system is broader than individual restaurants, and the most ethical options are often more expensive.
- •Factory farming as the strongest argument for veganism
- •Economic realities that shape industrial meat
- •Michael’s influence from documentaries like Food, Inc.
- •Targeting ethical operators vs. the larger system
- 9:53 – 16:45
Why some animals must be harvested: wild pigs, deer overpopulation, and Lyme disease
Joe lays out the ecological necessity of hunting in certain cases, using wild pigs as the clearest example. The discussion expands to deer populations, ticks, Lyme disease, and management options like predators vs. regulated hunting.
- •Wild pig population control and helicopter culls in Texas
- •Farmer impacts and crop destruction
- •Deer populations, ticks, and Lyme disease prevalence
- •Population control: predators vs. human management
- 16:45 – 18:24
Hunters as conservation funders: tags, licenses, and the Pittman–Robertson model
Michael explains how hunters’ licensing fees support wildlife conservation, and Joe adds details about excise taxes on gear generating billions. They emphasize hunters’ paradoxical role: killing animals while also funding and protecting wildlife habitat.
- •Licenses/tags as conservation funding
- •Pittman–Robertson Act and gear taxes
- •Hunters’ conservation contributions vs. activist groups
- •Respect for wildlife alongside harvesting it
- 18:24 – 28:09
Humility of killing, suffering in the wild, and the ethics of a clean shot
Michael describes the emotional intensity of hunting with a bow and the respect it requires. Joe argues that nature is brutal—animals often die painfully—and stresses practice as part of making hunting more humane than many natural deaths.
- •Michael’s physical reaction to seeing a deer (trembling, awe)
- •Animals don’t typically die peacefully in nature
- •Clean kills vs. predation/starvation
- •Joe’s daily archery practice and ‘ethical shot’ mindset
- 28:09 – 34:53
Antler’s sourcing philosophy and a long detour into wild pigs and weird animal facts
Michael details Antler’s choices (no standard chicken/beef/pork; more game and direct-from-farmer sourcing). Joe and Michael then dive into terminology (wild boar vs. wild pig), feral pig ‘morphing,’ and how dangerous pigs can be—including stories of farmers killed in pens.
- •Antler’s menu strategy: game meats and smaller-scale farms
- •Direct farmer relationships and transparency about animal diets
- •Wild boar vs. wild pig naming debate and species background
- •Feral pigs’ rapid physical changes and real-world danger
- 34:53 – 1:00:24
Michael’s origin story: first wild turkey hunt and discovering ‘what food should taste like’
Michael explains he didn’t begin hunting until his 20s, starting with wild turkey. The taste and texture difference from industrial turkey became a turning point that shaped his beliefs about food quality and sustainability.
- •Learning wild turkey exists and going on a first hunt
- •Wild turkey: darker meat, different skin color, leaner body
- •Flavor as evidence of diet and lifestyle differences
- •How hunting reframed Michael’s view of ‘real’ food
- 1:00:24 – 1:03:28
Foraging deep dive: morels, chanterelles, chicken-of-the-woods, and mushroom biology
The conversation pivots to foraging as a family activity and culinary passion, focusing on morels and other wild mushrooms. They discuss where mushrooms grow (dead elm roots, forest fires), proper identification, and surprising facts about fungi being closer to animals than plants.
- •Michael foraging with his kids; morels as a favorite
- •Finding morels near dead elm trees and post-fire blooms
- •Chicken-of-the-woods: taste, timing, and harvesting in public parks
- •Fungi basics: respiration, ecology, and mycorrhizal relationships
- 1:03:28 – 1:12:18
Psychedelic mushroom mythology: Amanita muscaria, Santa Claus parallels, and shaman rituals
Joe shares an extended story connecting Amanita muscaria traditions to Santa Claus imagery and alleged early religious symbolism. He references John Marco Allegro’s controversial scholarship and describes Siberian practices, including urine recycling for psychoactive effects.
- •Amanita muscaria’s appearance and cultural symbolism
- •Siberian shaman practices and reindeer/caribou links
- •Allegro’s ‘Sacred Mushroom and the Cross’ claims
- •Santa/Christmas parallels: trees, gifts, red-and-white imagery, chimney entry
- 1:12:18 – 1:14:25
Stoned Ape theory and psilocybin research: creativity, hunting, and language origins
The discussion moves from mythology to theories of human evolution, focusing on Terence and Dennis McKenna’s ‘stoned ape’ hypothesis. Joe outlines claims about brain expansion, visual acuity, and potential links between psychedelics and language development, plus modern research into mental health.
- •Brain size doubling mystery and climate shift context
- •Low-dose psilocybin and visual acuity for hunting
- •Potential role in creativity and language development
- •Johns Hopkins research and depression/PTSD interest
- 1:14:25 – 1:21:22
Building Antler: from teen diner cook to cookbook project to restaurant (and maple syrup)
Michael recounts how he started cooking at 13, then committed to a chef career after having kids young. He explains how a cookbook/photo project and ticketed ‘game dinners’ generated press that led to opening Antler, followed by a discussion of Canadian ingredients like wild leeks and maple syrup tapping.
- •First kitchen job as a teenager and learning at home with his mom
- •Motivation: using food to ‘make a difference’ environmentally
- •Game dinners, media coverage, and the leap to a restaurant
- •Canadian pantry themes and the craft of maple syrup production
- 1:21:22 – 1:29:09
Indigenous food inspiration, cedar sorbet, and the rules around serving wild game
Michael discusses learning from Indigenous traditions and adapting flavors (like cedar tea) into dishes and cocktails. They also cover why restaurants can sell foraged plants but not wild game, plus controlled exceptions like Newfoundland’s permitting approach.
- •Interest in Indigenous techniques: open-fire cooking and raw preparations in the Arctic
- •Cedar tea reimagined as sorbet and gin infusions
- •Market hunting history and why wild game sales are restricted
- •Newfoundland’s permit-based system for legal wild game service
- 1:29:09 – 1:35:14
Vegan extremism examples, ‘Snow the chicken,’ and why protests become harassment battles
Joe plays and reacts to a viral restaurant disruption clip featuring an activist describing a chicken as her ‘little girl.’ They distinguish free speech from harassment, argue for making persuasive content instead of disrupting diners, and return to Antler’s ongoing protests and attempted outreach.
- •The ‘Snow’ restaurant interruption clip and public reaction
- •Protest vs. harassment: disrupting diners and staff
- •Michael’s attempt to invite activists to forage and dialogue
- •Why ideology turns into a win/lose contest rather than debate
- 1:35:14 – 1:46:26
Antler’s momentum: international chef events, asado-style whole deer, and closing shout-outs
Michael shares how Antler gained international recognition and describes cooking events in Abu Dhabi and Australia, including roasting whole deer asado-style. They wrap by discussing using the whole animal, Joe offering elk meat, and Michael’s website/social handles as protests continue weekly.
- •Winning/participating in global food festivals and chef competitions
- •Asado technique for whole animals and temperature control by fire management
- •Whole-animal cooking: hides, bones, organ meats, tougher cuts
- •Where to find Antler and Michael online; Joe’s final plea to target factory farming instead
