Joe Rogan Experience #1105 - Michael Hunter

Joe Rogan 0:01 Four, three, two, one. Hello, Michael.

Michael Hunter 0:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:07 Welcome. Thanks, man. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for coming in.

Michael Hunter 0:09 100%, man.

Joe Rogan 0:10 Uh, if people don't know the story, we'll give them the brief synopsis. I found out about your story online because there was this viral thing that was going on about a chef who was getting protested by a bunch of animal rights activists and vegans who decided to camp out in front of your business and try to, uh, uh, the restaurant called Antler in Toronto, try to... I don't know what the fuck they were trying to do. But you decided to butcher, uh, a leg of deer in front of them, and it became this horrific thing, like-

Michael Hunter 0:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:43 ... how could you do that? In a place that serves meat, how could you prepare the meat right in front of them? Like, how did this all get started?

Michael Hunter 0:51 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:52 How did it become such a crazy viral story? And why, why were they mad at you when there's a million other restaurants around you?

Michael Hunter 1:01 All right. So, it started in about December, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:05 About.

Michael Hunter 1:05 ... about.

Joe Rogan 1:05 Cl- cl- clue number one-

Michael Hunter 1:07 Canadian. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08 ... possibly Canadian.

Michael Hunter 1:08 The crazy Canadian.

Joe Rogan 1:09 (laughs) Besides being nice. (laughs)

Michael Hunter 1:11 Um ... Well, that's why it went viral, because I wasn't being nice. I wasn't the stereotypical-

Joe Rogan 1:15 Oh.

Michael Hunter 1:15 ... Canadian. No, um-

Joe Rogan 1:16 Well, you weren't even being mean. You were just doing-

Michael Hunter 1:18 No.

Joe Rogan 1:18 ... your job in front of them.

Michael Hunter 1:19 I was doing my thing. So, they started in December, and they really-

Joe Rogan 1:23 I'm trying to keep this right in front of your face, so-

Michael Hunter 1:24 Right. They, they really got pissed off with our ... We have a little chalkboard sign out front. Um, I'll give you the con- ... We have a 45-seat restaurant. So we're a small ... Uh, I have one business partner who's a, a, my best friend and family friend, and, um, we had a little chalkboard sign out front that said, "Venison is the new kale." And, you know, we get cute with our sign. We, we tease other restaurants around us. Like, we have fun with the sign, and it's fun. And, uh, this cyclist vegan, uh, rode by and took huge offense to our sign. And all of a sudden one day these protesters just showed up. So, um, originally I was just kind of frustrated because of they're totally misguided, because, um, we take a lot of pride in where our food comes from. Uh, we have vegan and vegetarian dishes on the menu, uh, and I, I really respect that type of diet. So, we were just totally floored with why this was happening. And, um ... So this started to go on. They started to come every week. And they went from, like, two or three people being kind of peaceful to being like 10, 15 people, not so peaceful. So, uh, it's when it turned not so peaceful, they were shouting at our, at our guests, and shouting in our door, and really trying to harm our business that, uh, I just kind of got fed up, last resort, went down ... We get a whole deer, uh, a couple times a month and we, we butcher it ourselves, and, uh, I just said, "Screw it. Screw it. I'm," like, "I'm gonna get these people to get out of here." So I thought that that would make them go away.

Joe Rogan 2:52 (laughs) How did you think that was gonna make them go away and not escalate it?

Michael Hunter 2:56 Uh, I don't know. I was just ... It was just totally like last resort. I was totally fed up. Um, I wanted to defend myself, defend our customers, you know. You could see people walking in visibly upset.

Joe Rogan 3:07 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 3:07 Um, you know, they're being shouted at, being screamed at, called a murderer as they're walking in for dinner. Like, you're going on a date. You wanna have a nice time.

Joe Rogan 3:14 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 3:14 And then people are screaming at you, uh, you know, just for eating. So, uh, I was just fed up and I just kinda thought like, you know, "Buzz off."

Joe Rogan 3:22 And why ... so just one sign-

Michael Hunter 3:26 One sign.

Joe Rogan 3:26 ... "Venison is the new kale."

Michael Hunter 3:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:28 One sign.

Michael Hunter 3:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:29 Set this whole thing off.

Michael Hunter 3:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:32 And you're surrounded by restaurants. I mean, I know where you are. You're in Toronto.

Michael Hunter 3:35 So we're, so we're surrounded by restaurants and ... There's an actual butcher shop across the street, and if you go in there's like whole cattle hanging-

Joe Rogan 3:42 That's okay.

Michael Hunter 3:42 ... in their butcher shop. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:43 But you're a problem with your comparison to kale. You attacked their sacred kale.

Michael Hunter 3:48 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:48 God.

Michael Hunter 3:49 We were promoting, uh, meat. I, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 3:52 That's what it is?

Michael Hunter 3:52 Totally bizarre.

Joe Rogan 3:53 'Cause you were promoting it-

Michael Hunter 3:54 We were promoting it, or, or, or ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:57 ... on a sign.

Michael Hunter 3:57 No idea.

Joe Rogan 3:57 So if you just didn't promote anything-

Michael Hunter 3:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:59 ... and they were allowed to cycle by and dream of broccoli-

Michael Hunter 4:02 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:02 ... without any interference (laughs) .

Michael Hunter 4:05 Yeah, man. I have no idea. It's totally bizarre.

Joe Rogan 4:07 How many times a day? I'm sorry. How many times a day protest you?

Michael Hunter 4:09 Um, I think it's about eight now. Eight. They're coming weekly.

Joe Rogan 4:13 They still do?

Michael Hunter 4:14 They still do. There's one this Friday.

Joe Rogan 4:16 Oh, Jesus.

Michael Hunter 4:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:16 So they organize them.

Michael Hunter 4:17 They, they organize them. There's like Facebook groups. There's, uh ... They're, they're basically giving us an ultimatum. We have to put their slogan in our window and they'll go away. But-

Joe Rogan 4:26 What?

Michael Hunter 4:27 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:28 What's their slogan?

Michael Hunter 4:30 Um-

Joe Rogan 4:30 "We are cunts?"

Michael Hunter 4:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:33 (laughs)

Michael Hunter 4:33 There's, there's like ... I, I can't remember it, you know, word for word, but it's, you know, like, "Killing animals is wrong. They have feelings." You know?

Joe Rogan 4:40 What?

Michael Hunter 4:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:41 Do you have to put that in your window?

Michael Hunter 4:42 Well, we don't ... We're not going to.

Joe Rogan 4:43 But-

Michael Hunter 4:43 There's no way. Absolutely-

Joe Rogan 4:43 ... but that's what they want?

Michael Hunter 4:44 That's what they want. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:45 That's hilarious.

Michael Hunter 4:45 So it's like eco-terrorism, extortion, whatever you wanna call it.

Joe Rogan 4:50 Wow. W- well, the part, the part of this that drives me the most crazy is the fact that you're surrounded by restaurants.

Michael Hunter 4:59 We're surrounded by restaurants.

Joe Rogan 5:00 You're surrounded by ... Like you said, you're across the street from a butcher shop. 97% of the people in the world eat meat. It's something, something crazy like that. I mean, I'm sure everyone hasn't really been polled. I'm sure it's not that accurate. But it's somewhere between 95% and 97%.

Michael Hunter 5:16 It's, it's big. It's big. And I think, you know, we're an easy target, you know. Our name is Antler. We were ... I think they're mad because, um, you know, their, their thing is that we're promoting ethical farming. And their beliefs is there is no such thing as eth- ethical farming.

Joe Rogan 5:33 Right.

Michael Hunter 5:33 That all meat is murder. And, um, you know, if you look up murder in the dictionary, it has to do with humans.

Joe Rogan 5:38 Mm-hmm.

Michael Hunter 5:38 You know? It has nothing to do with animals. And, um, there is such a thing as ethical farming and sustainable farming, and we work really hard to make sure that where we get our meat from is, uh, from the best possible place we can and it's local, so it's supporting our local farmers that are, you know, within hours of our restaurant.

Joe Rogan 5:57 Now, when you say that they started out nice, like, how many people were there in the beginning?

Michael Hunter 6:02 Two, three, four.

Joe Rogan 6:03 And they had signs?

Michael Hunter 6:03 And they weren't ... They had signs, and they were just kinda, you know, promoting their message, but they weren't really yelling and screaming and ...

Joe Rogan 6:10 What escalated it?

Michael Hunter 6:11 ... um, so we would call the police. We, we kind of got wind of it on their Facebook groups. So we would call the police and have the police there to make sure everyone's safe because one thing, like, customers are scared, our staff are scared. Like, no one's dealt with this before. I've never dealt with this before. Um, so we would have the police there. You know, they were r- the police were amazing. Um, and then, you know, one time we kind of thought, "Okay, let's not call the police. Let's see what happens. Like, maybe it'll just ... they'll go away." And, uh, so then like a megaphone came out. Uh, our neighbors were coming down and getting in fights with them and it was, it was ugly. So we called the police to come and-

Joe Rogan 6:47 Jesus Christ.

Michael Hunter 6:48 ... you know, keep the peace. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:49 A megaphone?

Michael Hunter 6:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:51 (sighs) Part of the problem with these kind of things is it becomes a contest. It becomes, uh, a battle. You know, trying to see who's gonna win.

Michael Hunter 6:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 6:59 And they're absolutely on a team. I mean, this, th- that's one of the things that happens with veganism and I think it happens with hunters too. (coughs) Excuse me. Uh, people become very tribal.

Michael Hunter 7:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:11 You know, and, you know, it's us versus them and they want to win. And then it becomes this thing where, uh, you know ... Look, the reality is a lot of people are idiots-

Michael Hunter 7:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:22 ... and they don't have a lot going on in their life. And so when something comes up where it becomes a, a primary focus of their life, one restaurant, as illogical as it might be, that becomes the battleground. And it's an ideological battleground for, you know, "Don't eat meat ever." Versus sustainable farming, you know, this, the ... Look, I'm sure ... I know you're a hunter. I'm sure you feel a certain amount of remorse when an animal dies.

Michael Hunter 7:50 100%. And, yeah, that's a big part of sort of my beliefs and my philosophy and, uh, why I'm working on this cookbook right now is because, uh, I think that, you know, if you do eat meat, you should be able to kill an animal and experience that. And I, I think that if, if people were to actually kill an animal, they would see, you know, what goes into that. And I don't think people would consume as much meat and I don't think people would definitely ... You know, they certainly wouldn't waste as much meat, um, as they do. And it's, it's just really upsetting and I think it's totally misguided, you know, why we were targeted.

Joe Rogan 8:22 Well, I mean, uh, like I said, I think it just becomes a game.

Michael Hunter 8:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:25 It, it becomes a, the big tribal game. You know, there's, there's a real argument, a real argument that I support against factory farming and factory farming is the way most people are getting their meat in terms of, like ... in terms of, like, cheeseburgers and fast food and stuff along those lines. I mean, you're not getting it from the most ethical sources. It's just, uh, it's not financially sustainable to do it that way. Everything would cost more money.

Michael Hunter 8:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:53 And, uh, that's a real problem that we as a society ... It's not obviously not you or I that has-

Michael Hunter 8:59 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 8:59 ... set up the system, but that this system is a system that we find ourselves a part of.

Michael Hunter 9:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 9:05 It's a real problem. I've removed myself from it for the most part, but occasionally I'm on the road and I'm hungry and, you know, I'll eat some meat that's just whatever.

Michael Hunter 9:14 Totally. It's-

Joe Rogan 9:15 I-

Michael Hunter 9:15 It's a necessary evil. You know, uh, in sort of, sort of, but-

Joe Rogan 9:18 Sort of. I mean, it's not really necessary.

Michael Hunter 9:19 It's not really necessary at all. That maybe that's the wrong way to describe it, but i- it's how the system's been set up and it's, it's actually why I started hunting and, and doing what I do because I watched these documentaries like Food, Inc., and these things that kind of shone a light on, you know, the system and how this stuff is actually being produced and it's horrible. It's, uh, it's terrifying.

Joe Rogan 9:37 It really is.

Michael Hunter 9:37 Yeah. And-

Joe Rogan 9:38 That ... And I think that's the real number one problem.

Michael Hunter 9:40 And, you know, and this vegan activist message to go after, you know, these types of farming, you know, we support as well and we agree with.

Joe Rogan 9:48 Mm-hmm.

Michael Hunter 9:48 So the fact that we were targeted for this, um, was really, really frustrating.

Joe Rogan 9:53 Yeah. I think vegans, um ... I understand where they're coming from, but I don't think that they have seen the big picture and the big picture is there's some animals that need to be harvested. They, th- they're not sustainable. Wild pigs is the best example.

Michael Hunter 10:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:09 There, there is no way you are going to stop wild pigs without killing them.

Michael Hunter 10:13 No.

Joe Rogan 10:13 There's no way. You're not gonna give them birth control. You're not going to ... Unless you're gonna let loose fucking packs of wolves, and I mean packs, to deal with, like, what's going on in Texas. The, the ... I mean, they, they're forced to shoot them out of helicopters. They hire-

Michael Hunter 10:29 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 10:30 They hire people to come in with helicopters and shoot them from the sky. It's that bad. And this is farmers.

Michael Hunter 10:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:36 There's companies called Hella Hunting where the, the-

Michael Hunter 10:39 (laughs) That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 10:39 I mean, uh, they have it on the side. Like, they have a wild boar and a fucking helicopter blade on their logo.

Michael Hunter 10:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:43 It's crazy. They have to do it.

Michael Hunter 10:46 Yeah. No. And I, I don't, I don't have a lot of experience with that because where I am, we don't have that wild boar problem, but, uh, I, I hunt with these guys from, from Mossy Oak and I've gone down there and done one of these pig hunts and they've shown me their fields and, like, 1/3 of their cornfield is just destroyed.

Joe Rogan 11:02 Destroyed.

Michael Hunter 11:03 And they have to hunt them at night or they hunt them, uh, with dogs and, uh, i- it's a huge problem for farmers trying to make a living.

Joe Rogan 11:11 It is a huge problem. And vegans themselves need to understand that's your food supply.

Michael Hunter 11:15 Totally.

Joe Rogan 11:15 You're, you're not growing your own food mostly. Most people listening to this that are vegan-

Michael Hunter 11:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:19 ... are not growing their own food. You're getting your own food from a farm. That farm is getting attacked by pigs. That's only one animal. Another one is deer. I mean, there's a shitload of deer in North America. What's interesting is California has a very weird way of handling it, and I kind of get it in some ways. The weird way that we handle it in California is we don't hunt mountain lions.

Michael Hunter 11:39 Okay.

Joe Rogan 11:39 There's no mountain lion hunting. This is very few deer.

Michael Hunter 11:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:42 I mean, I see deer in my neighborhood. You know, I, I live in a fairly rural area.

Michael Hunter 11:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:47 I see deer, you know, a couple times a week, but it's nothing like if you go to the East Coast. Have you ever been in the east coast of California or of, uh, uh, the United States, like New York State? That kind of area?

Michael Hunter 11:59 I've been ... N- New York City, yeah. I have been to the, uh, the East Coast, no.

Joe Rogan 12:02 The state, if you go upstate, like New York State-

Michael Hunter 12:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:05 There's so many fucking deer up there. It's one of the reasons why Lyme disease is so horrible up there. It comes from the ticks that were on the deer.

Michael Hunter 12:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:12 And people get these terrible, terrible cases of Lyme disease and it's fucking everywhere up there, man. I have several friends that have really bad Lyme disease.

Michael Hunter 12:22 Yeah, it's horrible.

Joe Rogan 12:22 Where they have to take ... Um, go to Jim Miller's ...... Instagram. Jim Miller is a fighter in the UFC, uh, high-level fighter who's been competing at the highest level for a long time and he has serious Lyme disease, to the point where it's, like, debilitated and he-

Michael Hunter 12:40 It's scary.

Joe Rogan 12:41 He has to take a fat bag of pills and he held up his pills the other day. What he takes while he's ... Look at that. This is what he takes while he's in training camp.

Michael Hunter 12:50 That's insane.

Joe Rogan 12:51 19 days of medication and supplements, he says (laughs) .

Michael Hunter 12:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:55 He said, "Fuckly me." (laughs)

Michael Hunter 12:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:57 31 capsules a day.

Michael Hunter 12:59 That's brutal.

Joe Rogan 12:59 You do the math, remember they carry to seven, uh, and it just says Lyme disease. Um-

Michael Hunter 13:04 Brutal.

Joe Rogan 13:04 ... is one of the hashtags. Yeah, he's got it really bad. And, I mean, what's crazy is the guy could not be healthier, works out constantly, eats right, he's not boozing. His body's just falling apart because of fucking Lyme disease.

Michael Hunter 13:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:17 And it, and it's being carried by these, these deer. Overpopulation of wild animals is handled in one of two ways; either you introduce predators or you manage them with hunting. Um, there's a place in Ma- in Maui where they are, um ... The- uh, Maui has no predators, you know, and, but they also have a bunch of wild game that was brought in for King Kamehameha. I think it was in the 1800s they brought it in, um, I'm not sure when. But there's tons of axis deer on, on Maui and on Lanai and on Molokai and a couple of different islands and, uh, one of the things they've started doing is they were trying to figure out how to eradicate them from this area. So a bunch of hunters got together and they're hunting these axis deer and then giving the meat to poor people, like making it free for them.

Michael Hunter 14:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:11 And it's a, it's a v- really cool program, but that's another sort of situation where you kinda have to hunt.

Michael Hunter 14:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:19 There's no other ... Unless you're just gonna poison them or you're going to somehow or another capture them all and neuter and spay a certain amount of them every month-

Michael Hunter 14:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:29 ... there's really no other way to handle it.

Michael Hunter 14:31 Yeah, and I think that's, it's a big misconception. Like, people that don't educate themselves about hunting, they're just like, "Hunting is bad, killing animals is bad." And they get on this bandwagon, but they don't have enough information about it.

Joe Rogan 14:41 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 14:42 Um, and I think people confuse trophy hunting, you know, with, like, they see Cecil the lion and everyone-

Joe Rogan 14:47 Right.

Michael Hunter 14:47 ... goes after, okay, it's hunting is the, is the problem. But, you know, trophy hunting is the problem, but hunters that, that hunt for food, uh, and that hunt to, you know, help the, uh, the sort of environmental impacts that they're having, like people that ... Like snow geese, I don't know if you know much about snow geese.

Joe Rogan 15:02 Oh, I do.

Michael Hunter 15:02 But, like-

Joe Rogan 15:03 I read that article that you retweeted actually.

Michael Hunter 15:04 Yeah, they ... Like a NatGeo article that I, that I posted, you know, these birds fly in flocks of like 20,000, 30,000 birds and they land in a farmer's field and they eat everything.

Joe Rogan 15:14 Everything.

Michael Hunter 15:14 And they destroy it. And, you know, like 10, 15 years ago, these populations of birds, they weren't like they are now.

Joe Rogan 15:20 Mm-hmm.

Michael Hunter 15:21 So, um-

Joe Rogan 15:22 Well, large-scale agriculture is also responsible for the boom in the population of, of deer.

Michael Hunter 15:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:27 You know, deer in, uh, in America, particularly like in the Midwest, where all the farms are, it's ... What is it, a fucking coincidence that there's all the deer-

Michael Hunter 15:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 15:35 ... where all the farms are? No, it's not.

Michael Hunter 15:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:37 My, my good friend Doug Duren, he has a big ass farm in Wisconsin, beautiful place, in the Driftless Area. Do you know what that is?

Michael Hunter 15:45 No.

Joe Rogan 15:45 It's where the, the glaciers didn't pass through.

Michael Hunter 15:48 Okay.

Joe Rogan 15:48 So there's ... It's not flat.

Michael Hunter 15:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 15:49 There's all these hills and it's very beautiful, and lakes.

Michael Hunter 15:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 15:52 It's a phenomenal place. But essentially, he's got ... The deer that he hunts and that, that, uh, he, he and his friends hunt on his property, they're farm animals.

Michael Hunter 16:03 Totally.

Joe Rogan 16:03 They're eating corn.

Michael Hunter 16:04 Yeah. They're just eating grain. (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:05 These fucking creatures are e- ... I mean, he grows corn, he's a farmer.

Michael Hunter 16:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:08 So he grows all this corn, the deer are eating all this corn and they are fucking delicious, man.

Michael Hunter 16:13 (laughs) They're huge.

Joe Rogan 16:14 They're s- they're so huge-

Michael Hunter 16:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:15 ... and they're so, they're so good. But there's a reality to, uh, population control.

Michael Hunter 16:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:21 Now, in Wisconsin, they get it because they're around them every day, they're hitting them with their cars, they see them everywhere they look.

Michael Hunter 16:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:28 There's a ... This is not like, uh, th- the idealistic view of someone who lives in a city street in Toronto and is d- driving around on their bike looking for signs that are criticizing kale or whatever the fuck they're doing.

Michael Hunter 16:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:41 They're not in the real natural world that these animals exist in.

Michael Hunter 16:45 100%. They don't get it, they don't understand. Uh, you know, they live in their bubble and, you know, another thing they don't understand is that hunters actually, you know, we have to buy tags, we have to buy our licenses. There are rules and laws that we have to follow, and those fees actually pay for the wildlife conservation, and I, I'm pretty sure-

Joe Rogan 17:01 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 17:01 ... it's the same in the States as well, from at least talking to my friends. And-

Joe Rogan 17:04 It is.

Michael Hunter 17:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:05 It's the Pickman-Robertson Act. It's-

Michael Hunter 17:06 And they don't understand.

Joe Rogan 17:07 I think it's 11% of all the m- the proceeds from hunting gear go to wildlife conservation, and that turns out to be billions and billions of dollars.

Michael Hunter 17:16 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 17:16 It's far more than any other conservation group, far more than any wildlife conservation group or animal activist group. No one contributes more to conversation than hunting.

Michael Hunter 17:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:29 No one.

Michael Hunter 17:29 'Cause we want it, we want it to be there for our kids and their kids, and it's, it's nature, it's, it's how the world is supposed to be.

Joe Rogan 17:34 It's also this contradictory thing that seems, it seems like it doesn't make sense, but we love the wildlife.

Michael Hunter 17:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:40 We love the animals. Just because you eat them doesn't mean you don't love them, but you recognize them as, this is a weird way to look at it, but it is a renewable resource.

Michael Hunter 17:49 Right.

Joe Rogan 17:49 And it is also a magical, beautiful thing. Just because of that doesn't mean you shouldn't eat it.

Michael Hunter 17:55 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:55 I mean, it- it's, this, this disconnect that people have with the wild, I think, is a real part of it, a real part of the problem. Good luck finding a vegan in Alaska.

Michael Hunter 18:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:06 You know, there's not a whole lot of them that live out in the bush that are vegans. I mean they're eating salmon-

Michael Hunter 18:11 What are they, what are they gonna eat? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:11 ... and they're eating ... I mean you can, you can bring in vegetables, I mean-

Michael Hunter 18:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:14 ... I'm sure there are some, I'm just talking shit. But the reality is, if you are, if you're embedded in that world-

Michael Hunter 18:20 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 18:20 ... you understand it and you appreciate it and it, it's very humbling.

Michael Hunter 18:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:24 I mean, killing an animal is very humbling. I mean, it sounds like, to someone who's an animal lover, that sounds fucking crazy.

Michael Hunter 18:29 It's hard. It's also really hard. Like, when I see a deer come out, I hunt with a, with a bow, a crossbow, and I see a deer come out, it's ...... I'm trembling, I have the hair on my back that's standing up. They are these beautiful, majestic creatures and I'm gonna kill it. And it's, it's really, really difficult and I don't think that people understand that, th- that don't hunt and that haven't killed an animal, they don't understand the respect and the amount of effort that goes into that.

Joe Rogan 18:55 No, they definitely don't, but they don't care. I mean, what ... Th- they have an idea and the idea is animals should not die.

Michael Hunter 19:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:02 But they're going to die. It's, they're going to die of old age, they're gonna die of starvation, they're gonna freeze to death, they're gonna-

Michael Hunter 19:07 They're gonna be eaten alive.

Joe Rogan 19:07 ... they're gonna be eaten alive.

Michael Hunter 19:08 And, eh, people think that animals, they, they die peacefully in the wild, it's, uh, it's absolutely incorrect, um, if you, you know, Google anything, um, about how animals die in the wild, and they're being eaten alive. Like, deer are being taken down and eaten alive by wolves, or coyotes, or whatever it is.

Joe Rogan 19:22 Or bears.

Michael Hunter 19:23 Bears. And it's, it's horrific.

Joe Rogan 19:24 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 19:25 And to be shot with an arrow, to be shot with a bullet, it's a way more humane way to go, uh, in my, in my opinion.

Joe Rogan 19:31 Oh, it's, it's unquestionably a more humane way to go. I mean, it's the, one of the reasons why, you know, I hunt, um, and I practice so much. I practice every day. I have a ... One of the reasons why we got this building is so I can put a 45-yard-

Michael Hunter 19:43 I saw that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:43 ... indoor archery range.

Michael Hunter 19:44 I saw that. (laughs) I wanna shoot it.

Joe Rogan 19:45 You have to practice.

Michael Hunter 19:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:46 Well, we can shoot afterwards, but-

Michael Hunter 19:47 Awesome.

Joe Rogan 19:47 ... you have to fucking practice.

Michael Hunter 19:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:49 You, you have to be ... You have to be able to make an ethical shot. But now, when I sit down and I cook something for my family, I know where that came from.

Michael Hunter 19:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 19:59 If we have vegetables that we grew in our garden, there's a great satisfaction-

Michael Hunter 20:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:03 ... for serving up some cucumbers or some, some kale, or whatever it is that we grew in our garden to-

Michael Hunter 20:07 And it tastes better. When you, when you go out there and you cut that cucumber off the plant and you cut that kale down, it is like half an hour old.

Joe Rogan 20:15 Yes.

Michael Hunter 20:15 You know? And it, it like ... Nothing compares to that freshness that you go to the grocery store that may be a couple of days, a week, a month old, you have no idea. And for me as a chef, um, that's why I love hunting and foraging and having a garden in my backyard because when you go and pick something, nothing tastes as good as that.

Joe Rogan 20:32 Right. Yeah. I mean, I appreciate where vegans and animal rights activists are coming from 'cause it's coming from ... I think they're, uh, there's a lot of distortion, um, th- with like really angry ones and ... But this is my take on a lot of this. If you get a group of a hundred people, one of them for sure is a fucking idiot just out of just sheer odds.

Michael Hunter 20:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:53 Right? Like, what are the odds one of them is a, a fucking idiot?

Michael Hunter 20:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:56 It's pretty strong, right? Well, if you're gonna get a group of a hundred vegans, you're gonna get at least one of them that's a fucking idiot, and they're, they're gonna be ... Some of them are violent, some of them are super aggressive about it. I mean, there's a, a ton of them online that you can go. They ... Their identity is completely wrapped around veganism. They use vegan in their name. It's always, "I'm the vegan this or the vegan that." That is 100% of their name, so ... Or 100% of their identity, so they can't, they can't separate from it ever. Like, that is who they are forever. And they have ... There's been some serious problems. What was the name of that cafe again? Uh-

Narrator 21:30 Gratitude.

Joe Rogan 21:30 Cafe Gratitude. Um, there were some people that were running a vegan restaurant, a cou- ... I think they have a couple of them, right, in LA? And, um, they were having health issues and some people, the vegan diet just doesn't agree with them. Eh, maybe they were doing it wrong, maybe they have unique dietary needs, but they started raising cattle and they started eating those cattle, and the fucking vegans freaked out. Death threats, all this crazy shit, coming after them, protesting and, you know, these people were terrified. They're older folks. They're, they're, you know, they're elderly. There it is, "Vegan restaurant owners receive death threats over animal slaughter scandal." Yeah. I mean, th- this is the bad ones.

Michael Hunter 22:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:12 Right? And it's not most of them. Most vegans, I think, are vegans for all the right reasons.

Michael Hunter 22:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:17 Even if they're misinformed.

Michael Hunter 22:18 And if you ... If you choose to, to not, uh, to not eat meat and, and choose that kind of lifestyle, like, power to you.

Joe Rogan 22:23 Power to you.

Michael Hunter 22:24 That's ... It's amazing and I think that it, eh, you know, if, if, if it works for you and your body, that's great. And for me, eh, it doesn't work for me. Like, I've, I've, I've done vegan cleanses, I've done the juice cleanses, I've, I've done ... You know, I've gone out for ... As a chef to vegan restaurants and I'm not full. You know? I, I'll, I'll, I'll eat three or four courses, I'll spend tons of money, and a half an hour later, I am starving. Starving. And it, it's, it ... I just n- ... I need to eat something with protein and lots of protein, and it's, it's meat or fish or, you know, I don't ... I've made tofu from scratch from soy beans and it's just, it doesn't ... It's not the same.

Joe Rogan 23:00 Yeah. Well, right now people are screaming at their ... "You're doing it wrong!"

Michael Hunter 23:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:04 "I ... My vegan food is amazing!"

Michael Hunter 23:06 (laughs) I love it, it's tasty.

Joe Rogan 23:07 "It's the most delicious!"

Michael Hunter 23:09 (laughs) But I'm not full.

Joe Rogan 23:09 Some of it is.

Michael Hunter 23:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:10 Some of it's good.

Michael Hunter 23:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:11 I mean, I, I eat vegan r- all the time. I eat ... There's a vegan restaurant near me, I go there all the time. Sometimes I get dirty looks.

Michael Hunter 23:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:17 People are like, "Oh, this motherfucker is here."

Michael Hunter 23:19 "Why are you here?"

Joe Rogan 23:19 "Yeah, why are you here?"

Michael Hunter 23:20 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:20 "And you're not allowed to ... You're not one of us."

Michael Hunter 23:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 23:22 "You're not allowed to eat our food." Um, it's just ... It's very unfortunate that I think these, uh, th- uh, ideological groups get tainted by the most extreme members. And I think that's true on the hunting side too and you got guys like fucking Ted Nugent, you know, and all. The, the ... People that I think that they distort the, the real mm-mmm sort of fascinating and mystical qualities of wildlife and harvesting wildlife and being out there and, and experiencing nature. It's a, it's an almost psychedelic experience to, to, to hunt and be in the wild. That sounds so counterintuitive to someone who's never experienced it-

Michael Hunter 24:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 24:04 ... but the world of these animals when you're away from your cellphone, when you're away from, uh, you know, television and all the bullshit and com- ... the computer. When you're, when you're out there in the wild, you are almost in another dimension if you're in complete silence in the forest and you ... Your mind goes into a, uh, completely different sort of mode that is familiar but yet alien. It's familiar in a way that your body is like, "Oh, this is hunting. This is what-... humans have done for hundreds of thousands of years. This is why we became human. I mean, this is literally one of the reasons that scientists believe that our brains grew, is because we started eating meat, we started cooking meat, the nutrition became more accessible, and also we started thinking about how to hunt, developing tools to hunt with. I mean, all of this is the reason why humans are humans today. And I'm sure the vegan argument against that would be, "Well, that's then and we're past that now." Well, we're not. No, we're not. We're not because of controlling the population of animals. We're certainly not because of controlling the population of predators. And that's another thing that people need to accept and understand. There's a reason why they eradicated all the wolves in North America before they reintroduced them to Yellowstone and now they're thriving in many parts of the Northwest. It's because they were fucking killing everything. And there's, they don't have any predators and the only predators that they have are humans. And if we don't keep the populations in check of them and of grizzly bears, of black bears and all the other predators, they start eating each other, they start tearing each other apart, they start coming after us, they start encroaching on pe- "Well, we're in their territory. We shouldn't be in their place." We, humans and cru- well, look, I'm on team people, so I don't know what the fuck you're saying here.

Michael Hunter 25:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:45 You know, if you're saying that we should move out of San Francisco and give it to the wolves, you can go fuck yourself.

Michael Hunter 25:49 (laughs) Right.

Joe Rogan 25:49 All right. And this is literally what it boils down to because it, you have to draw some line in the sand somewhere, because if someone doesn't control the population of animals, then what's gonna happen? Well, you know, you can leave them to their own devices and they can sort of sort it out. But you know how they sort it out? Through disease and starvation. I mean, what happens is there's too many animals and not enough food, so they get horrific diseases. That's where mange comes from, that's where, uh, a lot of, like, serious diseases that in- infect wildlife come from. They come from the lack of food or overpopulation. That's how nature sorts it out. You know, and that's how nature sorts it out with people too. We're just sneaky. We've used vaccines and shit and-

Michael Hunter 26:30 We're at the top of the food chain.

Joe Rogan 26:31 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 26:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:31 We are.

Michael Hunter 26:32 We've worked hard to get there.

Joe Rogan 26:33 We are.

Michael Hunter 26:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:34 And I think we, it comes with a certain responsibility and that responsibility is really, we're- we're really doing a disservice to that responsibility with factory farming, and that's the, one of the main arguments for veganism. The, one of the main arguments is the horrific treatment of those animals whether it's veganism or, or, or whether it's rather factory farming or whether it's, uh, large-scale dairy farms where they mistreat their cows or the chicken farms or all these different factory farms where they treat these animals not as a living being but as a commodity, then it becomes a giant problem. But if you look at guys like, do you know who Joel Salatin is?

Michael Hunter 27:11 No.

Joe Rogan 27:12 Joel Salatin's a very fascinating guy. He runs a farm called Polyface Farms, and what he has essentially done is made large-scale animal agriculture possible in a humane and very natural way. He has enormous electric fences that he uses for his pigs and he just moves them around, moves the fences around so the pigs wander around. He has a huge rolling chicken coop. I mean, it's fucking huge. And he pushes that thing around, he moves it to a new space. The chickens go out, they wander around, they're bawking around. They do the chicken thing and they go right back into the chicken house, and this is where he gets the eggs from. This is how they raise chickens, this is how they raise cattle, this is how they do it with all these different animals. And his perspective on all this is that if you, if you do it right, it's not horrific, it's not an evil thing, and that these animals are living the way they've, they're- they're meant to live.

Michael Hunter 28:09 Right. That's one, that's one of the- the things that we do at- at Antler is to- is to find those farmers and guys like that. One of the farms we get our deer from, they have a thousand acres. The deer roam as they please. They're eating nuts and apples and acorns and grass and everything they're supposed to eat, uh, and then when it's time, they're- they're collected and harvested.

Joe Rogan 28:28 Mm-hmm.

Michael Hunter 28:28 And that, that is where we get our meat from and- and we try really hard not to buy from these factory... We don't serve chicken, beef, or pork. We have bison, pheasant, duck, uh, wild boar because, you know, these game farms, they don't have these massive large-scale operations and I- I buy direct from the farmer and they can tell me what their diet is. You know, uh, what are their good months, their bad months. We- we know all about these animals that we're bringing to the restaurant and, um, and, you know, we're really proud of that.

Joe Rogan 28:57 I have an, uh, an issue with people that keep saying "wild boar."

Michael Hunter 29:01 Right.

Joe Rogan 29:01 Why do they say wild boar when it's wild pig?

Michael Hunter 29:04 So it's-

Joe Rogan 29:05 A boar is a male.

Michael Hunter 29:05 ... it actually is a different breed. So the- the- the pigs that are in these, you know, factory farms or even regular, regular pigs, there's- there's tot- there's many different breeds and a lot of them are hybrid, hybrid, um, breeds. The- the wild boar breed has long black hair and tusks that actually come out. So, um, I can buy whole pigs and they- they don't have those tusks and when I buy the wild boar breed, the meat is darker. Uh, the- the hair is black but w- we're getting them, you know, there's no hair by the time we get them. Um, and they've got the tusks, uh, in the jaw.

Joe Rogan 29:35 Right. But my point is that a boar is a male.

Michael Hunter 29:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 29:37 You're- you're definitely eating females too.

Michael Hunter 29:39 That's true.

Joe Rogan 29:40 Yeah, so why do they call it a wild boar? Because it's the sow.

Michael Hunter 29:42 Because it's just the breed. Yeah, it's just the breed.

Joe Rogan 29:44 Yeah, but they're, do you know that they're all the same breed?

Michael Hunter 29:47 I did not know that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:48 They're all Sus scrofa is the-

Michael Hunter 29:50 Okay.

Joe Rogan 29:50 ... the- the, I guess the genus. Is that what you say?

Michael Hunter 29:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 29:53 Um, they're all sort of interchangeable.

Michael Hunter 29:56 Right. Well, there's like-

Joe Rogan 29:57 They're- they all breed with each other.

Michael Hunter 29:57 ... I do know there's- there's tons of different varieties, like there's the Berkshire, there's Tamworth, there's all these different kinds of breeds.

Joe Rogan 30:02 Sure.

Michael Hunter 30:03 Breeds of hogs.

Joe Rogan 30:03 They've- there's variations-

Michael Hunter 30:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:05 ... but they're all the same animal.

Michael Hunter 30:06 Gotcha.

Joe Rogan 30:06 What's crazy about wild pigs is-

Michael Hunter 30:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:08 ... if you took a domestic pig-

Michael Hunter 30:10 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:10 ... you know, like Babe-

Michael Hunter 30:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:12 ... release Babe out into the forest, they morph.

Michael Hunter 30:15 Right.

Joe Rogan 30:15 Like with a very short amount of time.

Michael Hunter 30:17 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 30:17 Their snout extends, their hair becomes darker and thicker, their tusks lengthen.

Michael Hunter 30:22 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 30:23 It's very weird. They're a weird animal.

Michael Hunter 30:25 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 30:25 Pigs are a weird animal because what-

Michael Hunter 30:27 They are a weird animal.

Joe Rogan 30:28 When they're domestic, they're sweethearts.

Michael Hunter 30:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:30 I mean, unless you fall in their cage when they're hungry.

Michael Hunter 30:32 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:32 And they fucking eat you which is really crazy.

Michael Hunter 30:35 Eats you alive.

Joe Rogan 30:35 It's one of the main ways that farmers die, falling into cages and get eaten by pigs.

Michael Hunter 30:39 That's- that's gruesome.

Joe Rogan 30:40 Happens all the time.It does. It happens every year.

Michael Hunter 30:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:43 Guy'll fuck up and fall into a pig pen, and the pigs just fuck him up.

Michael Hunter 30:47 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 30:48 Yeah. Especially if you're, um, you know, you're dealing with those really enormous pigs. I mean, those pigs need a lot of food, and they're fucking big.

Michael Hunter 30:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:56 And once they start chewing you, that's your ass.

Michael Hunter 30:58 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:59 It's just an aside. (laughs) Maybe not-

Michael Hunter 31:02 Have you been pig hunting?

Joe Rogan 31:03 Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Hunter 31:03 Yeah?

Joe Rogan 31:04 Yeah, I've been pig hunting. I've shot a couple pigs.

Michael Hunter 31:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:07 The meat is definitely different. It's a lot-

Michael Hunter 31:08 It's a lot darker.

Joe Rogan 31:09 ... darker, yeah.

Michael Hunter 31:10 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:10 It's delicious, though.

Michael Hunter 31:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:11 And, um, where I do it, what's really interesting is, uh, in California, a lot of the pigs were introduced by William Randolph Hearst, that crazy asshole that, uh, ran, you know, from the movie Citizen Kane-

Michael Hunter 31:24 Of course.

Joe Rogan 31:24 ... you know, Orson Welles' depiction of him.

Michael Hunter 31:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:26 He was this crazy guy that ran Hearst Publications in the 1930s. He's re- literally one of the reasons why marijuana is illegal.

Michael Hunter 31:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 31:33 William Randolph Hearst decided that when there was a cover of, uh, I believe it was Popular Science magazine that said, "Hemp is the new billion-dollar crop," and they were, they had invented a machine called a decorticator. And what a decorticator does is it effectively processes hemp fiber, um, much more efficiently. And for the longest time, they used slaves to process hemp fiber, but then Eli Whitney came around with the cotton gin, and they switched from hemp clothing to cotton. Cotton is easier to produce with the cotton gin, but it's just an inferior cloth. Hemp makes better paper. Uh, hemp makes cloth. You can make houses with it. Henry Ford made the first fenders for the Model T out of hemp. I mean, hemp's a crazy thing. William Randolph Hearst read this article, saw what was coming, and realized that he was going to have to transition all of his paper mills, and he owned forests that they would cut down the trees and make paper with, they would have to transition those to hemp if people were demanding hemp. So instead, he undercut the entire industry by saying that there was a new drug that Blacks and Mexicans were smoking and they were raping white women, and he called this drug marijuana, which was really just the name of a, it was a Mexican slang for wild tobacco. So, he started printing these stories. Congress made it illegal. They didn't even, a lot of the people that were voting on it didn't even know that they were making cannabis or l- l- like, hemp, the, the, the, the textile and the commodity hemp. They didn't know they were making it illegal. They thought they were stopping a drug scourge that was forcing Blacks and Mexicans to rape white women. It was all William Randolph Hearst, this one crazy asshole, with Harry Anslinger in the fucking 1930s. That's when it became illegal. Well, this same crazy asshole let a bunch of wild pigs loose on his property so he can hunt them, 'cause he was a gentleman hunter.

Michael Hunter 33:21 (laughs) That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 33:23 So, the pigs that I hunt in California-

Michael Hunter 33:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 33:25 ... when I go pig hunting-

Michael Hunter 33:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 33:26 ... probably are direct descendants from the pigs that were let loose by this asshole.

Michael Hunter 33:31 Yeah, and the, uh, the, I think what a lot of people don't understand is how fast they breed. Um, you know, my, uh, my friends in Mississippi were telling me, you know, a pig can lay a litter three times a year, four times a year-

Joe Rogan 33:42 Yep.

Michael Hunter 33:42 ... up to 10, 12 piglets per litter, and they have no natural predators. So, what are these farmers gonna do when they start decimating their crops?

Joe Rogan 33:49 Yeah, they're not a native North American species.

Michael Hunter 33:51 No.

Joe Rogan 33:52 Yeah. And it's, uh, it's one of the most destructive invasive species. And if you, if you've never seen them before, you see them on TV, they look, you know, "Oh, it's a pig. Pigs are cute." I've seen, my friend has a potbelly pig. I pet it.

Michael Hunter 34:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:06 That's, that's great. What they are as adults when they're wild boars covered in mud and disease, they're fucking a mammal plague.

Michael Hunter 34:15 They're vicious.

Joe Rogan 34:16 And they, they go through everything.

Michael Hunter 34:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:18 They will spread across the country. They'll destroy your garden. They'll just eat your dog. I mean, no bullshit.

Michael Hunter 34:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:24 They're fucking dangerous.

Michael Hunter 34:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:25 It's a crazy animal.

Michael Hunter 34:26 A lot of, a lot of farmers actually ask me if I'll come hunt on their property. Uh, a lot of vineyards will ask me to come in and they have a problem with the turkeys. The turkeys are eating all their grapes. Um, you know, stuff like that, that, you know, a lot of these, uh, uh, a lot of regular kind of city, people that live in the city, they don't understand.

Joe Rogan 34:41 Yeah, the turkey populations in some places are exploding, too, 'cause they've realized, "Oh, we'll just go to the suburbs. No one even hunts us."

Michael Hunter 34:46 There was one running down the street in Toronto, uh-

Joe Rogan 34:49 A turkey?

Michael Hunter 34:49 ... last week. A turkey. People were filming it and sending me the videos. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:51 Wow.

Michael Hunter 34:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:53 They're delicious, too.

Michael Hunter 34:54 Yeah. That's actually the, the first bird I hunted. I didn't actually start hunting until I was in my 20s. And, um, I had grown up cooking. Um, I was interested in becoming a chef. And, uh, a family friend told me he was going turkey hunting, and I said, "Well, what do you mean you're going turkey hunting?" Like, I thought turkeys were ... I didn't know there was such thing as wild turkey. I thought they were, uh, you know, uh, uh, a domesticated bird like a chicken. So, he takes me turkey hunting, and, um, I- I actually, I couldn't believe it. We, you know, we shot a couple birds. Um, you know, we plucked them out, and then the skin was yellow, and the- the meat is dark. Like, like the chicken leg meat is like the breast, like it's dark.

Joe Rogan 35:29 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 35:29 And I just thought like, "Wow," like, "This is incredible." And then when I tasted it, I- I just couldn't believe that this is what turkey was supposed to taste like.

Joe Rogan 35:37 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 35:37 And then-

Joe Rogan 35:37 It's a robust flavor.

Michael Hunter 35:38 And you grow up, you know, at least I grew up at, you know, Christmas, Thanksgiving, these- these important holidays eating turkey, and you see it, and it's this big white blob and it's humongous.

Joe Rogan 35:46 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 35:46 And then, you know, a wild bird, it's leaner. It's not like, super round. It's, it's, it's lean. It's- it's h- how it's supposed to be. And then for me, that was like the light bulb moment that this is what we're supposed to be eating. We're not supposed to be eating that shit.

Joe Rogan 35:59 Yeah. That shit, that, that really white meat turkey. Look at him. There's a turkey in Toronto.

Michael Hunter 36:03 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:03 Turkey in Toronto running down the street.

Michael Hunter 36:05 I'm so thankful to be here-

Joe Rogan 36:07 Wow.

Michael Hunter 36:07 ... 'cause it's, it's still snowing in Toronto.

Joe Rogan 36:08 Is it really?

Michael Hunter 36:09 It's still snowing. And I- I love winter and snowboarding and going out and enjoying the snow, but I'm done. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:15 California, baby. Come on down. (laughs)

Michael Hunter 36:17 Yeah, man.

Joe Rogan 36:18 I was talking to a buddy of mine from Montana on the phone yesterday, and it was fucking freezing cold up there, thick snow everywhere, and, you know, they're, uh, about to, uh, open up their bear season. And he's like, "Jesus Christ, it's f- f-"

Michael Hunter 36:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:30 " ... snow is everywhere." And I'm like, "Dude, I'm in my underwear right now outside."

Michael Hunter 36:33 I l- I love it here, man.

Joe Rogan 36:34 (laughs)

Michael Hunter 36:34 I have a soft spot for, uh, for California. I've been, I've been coming here since I was a little kid, uh, to visit my dad in the summers, and, uh, I come here two or three times a year and I love it.

Joe Rogan 36:43 I love it, too. Uh, you know, the mountain lion thing is a weird thing with California because I- I see their point. What they, what they've e- essentially done is-And this is, o- o- one of the weird things about California is like, California is one of the places that doesn't have a fish and game department.

Michael Hunter 37:01 Really?

Joe Rogan 37:01 Yeah, it's like-

Michael Hunter 37:02 I did not know that.

Joe Rogan 37:03 ... they don't call it that.

Michael Hunter 37:03 Okay.

Joe Rogan 37:03 They call it wildlife.

Michael Hunter 37:05 Okay.

Joe Rogan 37:06 They don't call it like, uh, like ... S- they don't think of it as, like, you have to hunt them.

Michael Hunter 37:11 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:11 Like if you say like fish and game or Arizona calls it game and fish.

Michael Hunter 37:15 Okay.

Joe Rogan 37:15 Because there's more game in Arizona-

Michael Hunter 37:17 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:17 ... than there are fish.

Michael Hunter 37:18 Yeah. Desert.

Joe Rogan 37:19 Yeah, it's kind of interesting-

Michael Hunter 37:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:20 ... the way they've switched it around but I think the way California calls it is fish and wildlife.

Michael Hunter 37:26 See, we, we call it the Ministry of Natural Resources.

Joe Rogan 37:28 Yeah, that's a good way-

Michael Hunter 37:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:29 ... to look at it. But-

Michael Hunter 37:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:31 ... I can't argue with the effectiveness of their approach because-

Michael Hunter 37:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:34 ... you do not find a lot of deer in California.

Michael Hunter 37:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 37:37 And deer hunters are extremely frustrated by that and I get it.

Michael Hunter 37:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:41 If you're like a local guy-

Michael Hunter 37:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:42 ... and you want to be able to hunt your own deer it's-

Michael Hunter 37:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:45 ... hard going, man.

Michael Hunter 37:47 It's crazy. I actually didn't know there was hunting here. I had no idea and through, through hanging out with, uh, with my friends at Mossy Oak, I met this guy that lives actually in Orange County. His name is Jeremiah Doughty, uh, from Field to Plate, if you ... I don't know if you know this guy. He's a local, uh, uh, you know, LA guy and he hunts all over California. I had no idea that there was so much hunting, uh, in California.

Joe Rogan 38:07 Yeah, there's plenty of hunting in California.

Michael Hunter 38:07 He's, he's a really good friend of mine and I'm, I'm saying, "Well, what's there?" He's like, "Well, there's turkey, there's wild pig, there's the, uh, the pronghorn."

Joe Rogan 38:14 Mm-hmm.

Michael Hunter 38:14 Um, there's all kinds of stuff that, uh-

Joe Rogan 38:16 There's elk.

Michael Hunter 38:16 ... you can hunt, yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:17 To the ... There's Rocky Mountain elk near Tejon Ranch and then there's-

Michael Hunter 38:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:20 ... Tule elk that are natural on the coast. There's, there's a lot of different animals here.

Michael Hunter 38:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:25 But, uh, there's also a lot of motherfucking mountain lions. Woo!

Michael Hunter 38:27 Yeah, that's-

Joe Rogan 38:28 And they still kill 'em.

Michael Hunter 38:29 ... crazy. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:29 But the way they kill 'em now is through government trackers. They-

Michael Hunter 38:32 Right.

Joe Rogan 38:32 I mean, it's really kinda crazy. What they do is mountain lions start eating people's dogs and cats and, you know, they get, they get scary.

Michael Hunter 38:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:40 And then people call one of the, you know, I don't know who you would call that would take care of it. And they hire people.

Michael Hunter 38:46 Yes.

Joe Rogan 38:46 And most of the time they use dogs. They use dogs to tree the mountain lion-

Michael Hunter 38:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:50 ... and then they shoot him and when they empty the contents of their stomachs, when they do an autopsy on them, they find it filled with dogs and cats, which is really kinda crazy.

Michael Hunter 38:58 That's, that is nut- ... Uh, there was one, um, near my ... where my dad lives. A lady was attacked when they were running. Uh, uh, a pair, a pair of girls were running, uh, in the canyon and a mountain lion actually attacked one of them and she was like having a tug-of-war with the mountain lion, like, with her friends-

Joe Rogan 39:12 Oh, Jesus Christ.

Michael Hunter 39:13 ... you know, foot. And, uh, I think it was about five or six years ago. But, uh-

Joe Rogan 39:15 Where was this?

Michael Hunter 39:16 Uh, somewhere in Orange County. Someone was attacked running or cycling-

Joe Rogan 39:19 Fuck, man.

Michael Hunter 39:19 ... or something like that, yeah. And they had, they had to, uh ... They went and, and found it and shot it, but ... I don't know. It's ... Yes.

Joe Rogan 39:24 Well, when they get hungry, you know, people, "We, we are encroaching 'cause we're encroaching on their land." No-

Michael Hunter 39:30 (laughs) There's too many of them.

Joe Rogan 39:31 It's, it's just, it's just land.

Michael Hunter 39:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:33 It's not theirs, you fuck. This is what's crazy about people. "We're encroaching on their territory." No, no, no.

Michael Hunter 39:38 It's everybody.

Joe Rogan 39:38 They're dead and then what the w- whatever was there that claimed that territory is dead and then there's a new one that comes along and they take it. It's a fucking constant battle. This idea that, like, we're in their community, like they have like an established gated community that we've entered and we start putting up houses and pissing off their neighbors. No, that's not what it is. It's just land. And if you hate people and you don't like cities, well then go fuckin' live in the forest. Until then, fuck off. And stop saying-

Michael Hunter 40:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:05 ... like, "We're encroaching on their land." Do you go to the supermarket? Yes. Do you buy your vegan food at a vegan deli? Well, that's a place where a deer could've lived. Okay? Do you go to the movie theater? You do? Well, you piece of shit, that used to be like a squirrel's house.

Michael Hunter 40:19 (laughs) That was a field at one point.

Joe Rogan 40:20 Yeah. I mean, l- large scale ag- agriculture. This is the other thing that kinda drives me crazy about vegans. It's not ... I'm not saying you shouldn't eat grain. I'm not saying you shouldn't, uh, eat vegetables. But large scale agriculture, in terms of just raising vegetables, is responsible for a tremendous amount of death. First of all, there's the pesticides that they use that kill bugs. Now, if you only like mammals and you don't mind when people kill bugs, that seems a little hypocritical to me.

Michael Hunter 40:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:46 It gets a little weird but it does get weird. And then there's the fact that when you're making these, uh ... when you're using a combine to gather up these gu-

Michael Hunter 40:53 Running through the field, all the rabbits, all the bunnies, all the-

Joe Rogan 40:55 Fucking everything.

Michael Hunter 40:56 ... the ground hogs are being decimated.

Joe Rogan 40:57 Decimated. My good buddy lives in Iowa and, you know, he takes pictures. He's like, "Look, we just chopped down, um ... We just cut the field. Look at all the vultures." And the vultures are just circling overhead and landing in the field right at ... They know when the combine rolls through, they come in.

Michael Hunter 41:14 Dinner time.

Joe Rogan 41:15 They literally know. It's like, there's places in Alaska, um, especially on Kodiak Island, where, uh, rifle shots equal-

Michael Hunter 41:23 Oh, I've heard of this.

Joe Rogan 41:24 ... Dinner Bell.

Michael Hunter 41:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:25 For grizzlies.

Michael Hunter 41:26 The bears come running.

Joe Rogan 41:27 Yes.

Michael Hunter 41:27 I've heard of this. This is crazy.

Joe Rogan 41:28 Fucking crazy.

Michael Hunter 41:29 And hunters are, are, are, are carrying like big Magnum .45s-

Joe Rogan 41:33 Yes.

Michael Hunter 41:33 ... like pistols to defend themselves against these grizzlies.

Joe Rogan 41:36 I'll send you a fantastic podcast that ... Do you know who Steve Rinella is?

Michael Hunter 41:40 No.

Joe Rogan 41:41 Steve Rinella is a really, really interesting guy and he's a host of a TV show called Meat Eater. He's, uh-

Michael Hunter 41:47 Yes. Oh, yes, yes, yes.

Joe Rogan 41:48 He's an author.

Michael Hunter 41:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:50 He has a podcast-

Michael Hunter 41:51 Yep.

Joe Rogan 41:51 ... that he, uh, recorded when they were in Uffagnack Island, which is like one of those chains of islands near Kodiak. So it has those enormous coastal brown bears just like Kodiak and they got attacked. They got attacked when they sh- ... They shot an elk and they were packing the elk out and they got rushed by a fucking tanker of a bear, and it is a crazy podcast 'cause they recorded it right after the fact.

Michael Hunter 42:17 Oh, crazy.

Joe Rogan 42:17 When every- everyone's freaking out still.

Michael Hunter 42:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:20 And, you know, one guy had a pistol on him but he set it down next to his pack and ... They had all these ideas of like what it would be like if an animal came in, like-

Michael Hunter 42:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 42:29 ... if they got attacked. They had all these preconceived notions of what it would be like, what it would feel like.

Michael Hunter 42:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:33 And it was like, throw all that out the window. It was l- go- you were ... Your brain ... It's not even on a reptilian level. Your brain is so terrified and this thing was so big. My friend, Yannis, said that he saw its teeth gnashing literally feet from his head as it ran through the camp.

Michael Hunter 42:49 Oh, my God. The Revenant is just like (laughs) ... I'm getting that view.

Joe Rogan 42:52 Fuck, dude.

Michael Hunter 42:52 I got rushed by a deer one time and, uh, I was losing it. I didn't know what to do.

Joe Rogan 42:58 Whoa.

Michael Hunter 42:58 It was, uh ... It was before sunrise. It was like, you know, 5:00 in the morning. I'm, I'm walking into my deer set-up and I had to cross this little river and it was like full of stones and stuff and I'm, I'm kinda walking up this river and all I hear is like, ba-dum, ba-dum, ba-dum. And I'm like, "Holy ... Like, what the hell is that noise?" And then it stopped and it was pawing at the ground and snorting.

Joe Rogan 43:17 Whoa.

Michael Hunter 43:17 And I was like, "Holy shit, this is a buck." And like, I ... My, my ... I got goosebumps right now thinking about this and this is ... Uh, my bow is in my bag and I'm just like, "I'm gonna get taken down by this deer."

Joe Rogan 43:27 (laughs)

Michael Hunter 43:28 And then I think ... It thought it was another buck 'cause it's, you know, it's in the rut.

Joe Rogan 43:31 Oh, yeah.

Michael Hunter 43:31 It's, uh, it's rutting season for these deer and it ... Then it smelt that I was a human and it did that ... I got blown. It whistled. It did that whistling, blowing kinda sound and took off. But I thought I was fucked. I was like, "This is it."

Joe Rogan 43:43 Gonna get gored.

Michael Hunter 43:44 I'm gonna get gored by these antlers and that's it.

Joe Rogan 43:46 (exhales) Well, uh, you in Canada? Where-

Michael Hunter 43:47 Um, um, but it's not a bear. It was... So yeah, that was in Canada. So I hunt-

Joe Rogan 43:50 Those are big animals.

Michael Hunter 43:51 They're big. We have big white tail and, um-

Joe Rogan 43:53 300 pounds sometimes.

Michael Hunter 43:54 They're big. We... And even our does are huge. Like, we get, we get a lot of doe tags. Um, where I grew up in, uh, in Caledon, which is about an hour north of the city on a horse farm, um, we don't have a gun season for deer. So that's how I got into archery and, and hunting with a bow.

Joe Rogan 44:09 That's interesting. Why is that?

Michael Hunter 44:10 Um, you know what? I don't know. I think it's 'cause it's, it's, uh, the farms are kinda closer together.

Joe Rogan 44:15 Oh.

Michael Hunter 44:15 It's, it's sort of like, you know, it's not huge agriculture. They're more kind of hobby farms, so I think they're a little closer together. Um-

Joe Rogan 44:20 They don't want people just letting loose bullets flying-

Michael Hunter 44:22 Letting loose bullets. I think the, the main thing is rifles. So, uh, deer season and turkey season, you can use a shotgun. Uh, and it's really stupid 'cause you can, you can shoot coyotes too with, with a rifle or shotgun, but there's no, uh, shotgun or rifle for deer, which is weird.

Joe Rogan 44:36 That is weird.

Michael Hunter 44:37 So that... But that's why I got into archery. Um, um, and yeah, I'm lucky 'cause it's, it's so close to the city. I can, I can kind of go and hunt and then come back to work in the morning.

Joe Rogan 44:48 Yeah, the coyote thing is interesting because it's very counterintuitive. The more coyotes you kill, the more coyotes breed, the more coyote populations increase. Coyotes are a fascinating animal.

Michael Hunter 44:57 They're, they're a big problem. Uh, at least in Caledon where I'm from, they've... You know, like you were talking about the mountain lions. That's kind of our version. Uh, I don't think there's any mountain lions where I live, but, um, the coyotes are a problem. They're nabbing people's dogs and cats everywhere.

Joe Rogan 45:09 Oh, here?

Michael Hunter 45:09 Off, off, off the trail, people were walking on their leash and they're coming out and-

Joe Rogan 45:13 Oh, yeah.

Michael Hunter 45:13 ... nailing their little dogs.

Joe Rogan 45:13 It happens out here. I had one kill a chicken of mine two weeks ago.

Michael Hunter 45:17 Crazy.

Joe Rogan 45:18 Yeah, I've got a video of the dead, dead fucking chicken in my-

Michael Hunter 45:21 Jesus.

Joe Rogan 45:21 ... chicken coop. And then, uh, here's what's really dark. I dug a hole and it buried the chicken. We don't eat our chickens. We just use the eggs.

Michael Hunter 45:28 For eggs.

Joe Rogan 45:28 And they're like pets. I mean-

Michael Hunter 45:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:30 ... like there's a video of me from my Instagram walking, uh, in my yard holding my daughter's bunny and the chickens, they're like, they're following me around. I wrote, "I'm the motherfucking chicken whisperer."

Michael Hunter 45:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:40 Because it's a crazy video because these chickens just follow me.

Michael Hunter 45:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:44 I mean, they literally-

Michael Hunter 45:45 That's awesome.

Joe Rogan 45:45 ... they're like pets.

Michael Hunter 45:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:47 So when, um, this chicken died, I was bummed out. It was a sweetheart of a chicken too. And this was a chicken that we used to... We would turn over rocks and she would come and get the worms.

Michael Hunter 45:57 Eat the worms.

Joe Rogan 45:57 And so she would follow you around. I'm like, "Come on, sweetie. Here we go." And it's really like a pet. Oh, here it is. Here's a video of me walking. Like look at them.

Michael Hunter 46:05 That's so cool.

Joe Rogan 46:05 They just follow me around, man.

Michael Hunter 46:07 I know. And a lot of farmers and, and people with little hobby farms, they use chickens as insect control-

Joe Rogan 46:12 Yes.

Michael Hunter 46:12 ... in their vegetable gardens.

Joe Rogan 46:13 Oh, they're great for that. They're great for... They, they will fuck up some mice too, man. You ain't never seen nothing like it.

Michael Hunter 46:19 No way.

Joe Rogan 46:19 No? You never seen it?

Michael Hunter 46:20 I, I did not know that.

Joe Rogan 46:21 Dude, this is how I found out about it. Um, well, one, one way I found out about it, a mouse got in the chicken coop and they fucked that thing up.

Michael Hunter 46:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:28 And I was like, "Wow, that's crazy."

Michael Hunter 46:30 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 46:30 But then, uh, another thing happened was my, um, daughters found a hawk. My wife decided in all of her, uh, sh- you know, w- women are always trying to like spruce things up. She decided she was gonna change some of these fences to a glass fence, and the hawks didn't get the memo. And they suck as shit down. They, they swan dived into this, this glass wall, and when we first put up the fence, there was like three hawks that got fucked up and one of them died. And we found one of them that was just KOed and had blood coming out of its nose. Like literally it was like a UFC fight. It was down and fucked up. So, uh, my daughters, uh, took this in and they put it in a large cardboard box and they had to figure out how to feed it 'cause it was... I think it was on Saturday and the wildlife rescue place was not open on the weekend, and so we had to bring it into a place on, uh, Monday. So over the weekend we went to this pet store that we go to and they sell something called pinkies. It's a very cute term for baby mice-

Michael Hunter 47:35 (laughs) Heard of those.

Joe Rogan 47:35 ... that can't really see yet, and they're separated from their mother and they feed them to snakes. It's mostly reptiles they feed them to. But these, um, hawks would fuck these pinkies up. And so to try to give this hawk some food while it was there over the weekend so it didn't starve, the... my daughters brought him the pinkies and there was one pinkie left, uh, that the hawk didn't eat when we brought the hawk to the wildlife rescue place. So they, they fixed up the hawk and they told us the hawk was... They, they took care of its wing and eventually they released it back in the wild. So it was a nice story. But there's this one pinkie left over and the thing was gonna die. It wasn't with its mother. It was too small to drink milk. And they were like, "We want to keep it. We want to keep it as a pet." I'm like, "That doesn't make any sense. You were just feeding its brothers and sisters to this fucking hawk, and now you guys want to keep it." So I said, "Listen, I think we should feed it to the chickens." And they're like, "No." I was like, "Well, what are you... You guys-"

Michael Hunter 48:26 What are you gonna do? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:27 "This is crazy. You can't keep it. It's gonna die."

Michael Hunter 48:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:29 "Do you understand that?" And they said, "Okay, okay, okay." I go, "Well listen, you don't have to watch. I'll just go out and do it." Dude, I put that fucking thing down and I have never seen those chickens so voracious, attacked that mouse, and then they were all chasing the one chicken that had the mouse trying to steal it from her.

Michael Hunter 48:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:47 Watch this.

Michael Hunter 48:48 I have not seen that.

Joe Rogan 48:48 This is... Here's the chicken with a mouse right here. Look, they get a mouse and they, they fuck that mouse up, man. They try to-

Michael Hunter 48:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:53 ... steal it from each other. They're like, "Give it to me. Give it to me. Give it to me." There's, uh, one where a cat is playing with a mouse. A cat... You've seen the one with the cat and the chicken, Jamie?

Narrator 49:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 49:04 That's the best one because the cat, everybody thinks of cats as being vicious. Cats are pretty vicious. Chickens are fucking dinosaurs, man. The way the chicken attacks the mouse, like here he is. See, look at that. He's got... The... He's gonna eat the shit out of that mouse too. He's gotta... She's gotta keep her eyes open to make sure those other-

Michael Hunter 49:21 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:21 ... cunts don't come and steal her mouse. See, look at her. They're experts in bobbing and weaving and turning their heads. But so the, uh, cat is stalking the mouse and the chicken's like, "Bitch, you don't even know what you're doing." The chicken just runs in and snatches it right in front of the cat and the cat's like, "Fuck, seriously?"

Michael Hunter 49:36 (laughs) It's like, "My mouse."

Joe Rogan 49:38 They're way more ruthless. I mean, birds are ruthless creatures, and chickens in particular are just... I think it's just a part of their natural diet. Like when a, a mouse would get... Look at this. See the cat? The cat's like, "Wow, check out this mouse. I can't believe how lucky I am."

Michael Hunter 49:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:55 So he's like... You know, cats, for a cat half of it's a game, right? They just-

Michael Hunter 49:59 They just want to play with it.

Joe Rogan 50:00 Yeah. This chick hanging back, but as soon as the chicken finds it...... meanwhile, that mouse does not seem scared of that cha- that cat.

Michael Hunter 50:09 He's not, he's not scared of mice.

Joe Rogan 50:10 I bet that mouse has toxo. Look at the-

Michael Hunter 50:12 Boom.

Joe Rogan 50:13 ... chickens like, "Fuck you. Give me that thing."

Michael Hunter 50:14 That is crazy.

Joe Rogan 50:15 Crazy.

Michael Hunter 50:16 I did not know that about-

Joe Rogan 50:17 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 50:17 ... chickens.

Joe Rogan 50:17 Oh, dude, they'll fuck a mouse up.

Michael Hunter 50:20 (laughs) That is crazy.

Joe Rogan 50:20 But it's just the way they do it to-

Michael Hunter 50:22 He's fast too.

Joe Rogan 50:23 And they think of it as purely as food.

Michael Hunter 50:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 50:26 They're not think- like the cat, it's, it's sport.

Michael Hunter 50:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:28 For the cat, it's kind of fun.

Michael Hunter 50:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:30 Cat's probably fully fed and, you know-

Michael Hunter 50:32 It's a house cat.

Joe Rogan 50:32 Yeah, it's a house cat.

Michael Hunter 50:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:33 It's a fat house cat. He's just looking to kill something for sport.

Michael Hunter 50:35 But that's nature. That's nature.

Joe Rogan 50:37 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 50:37 And people don't understand that. They wanna, they wanna remove themselves from it and that's great, but it's-

Joe Rogan 50:41 They don't wanna understand it.

Michael Hunter 50:42 They don't wanna understand it.

Joe Rogan 50:43 They want something that aligns with their ideology, and their ideology is love and compassion, except for people that eat meat, and then-

Michael Hunter 50:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:52 ... death.

Michael Hunter 50:53 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:53 Death threats.

Michael Hunter 50:53 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:55 (laughs) I mean, that's really what it is. It's, it's an ideological battle. And in that sense, veganism becomes very much like a religion because you, uh, like, you support all the people that are on your side and the people that are opposed to you are like apostates. They're like, they're like the negative people that are trying to bring you to the dark side, to hell.

Michael Hunter 51:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:17 It gets, it gets really crazy. And there's a lot of evidence on their side in terms of like factory farming and the h- the horrors of factory farming, and even the, the really incredibly poor modern American diet that they see. A lot of people when they go vegan, what they're doing, one of the best things that they're doing is they're eliminating all the bullshit. They're eliminating all the trans fats and all the fucking, uh, all the terrible shit that a lot of people eat that isn't vegan.

Michael Hunter 51:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:46 But the negative thing is most of them are eating diets that are far too carbohydrate rich and if they're not getting their blood checked, they don't even know how unhealthy they are. They convince themselves they're doing much better and they're feeling much better, but a lack of cholesterol can fuck with your hormone functions. A lot of vegans have low hormones because of that.

Michael Hunter 52:07 We, uh, one of our regulars at Antler, uh, was talking to me about, about his experience. He used to have a organic vegetable farm. Uh, and he's a six foot seven big huge tall Dutch white guy. And he goes to me, he says, "You know, uh, I was vegan for a long time. I had this organic vegetable farm and I thought that I was doing my body a service." He said, "I thought I was doing something great for my body." And he got really sick and he went to the doctor and the doctor said, "Listen, man, you have to take supplements to supplement the, the, the things you're not getting from, from eating meat or you have to go back to eating meat because just some people's bodies do better than others." Uh, he said a lot of Asian cultures are more susceptible to, to vegetable diets, but he's like, in reality, he's like, "You know, you're a, you're a northern European, you know, descent and you need to eat, you know, this stuff to be healthy." And that's when he, he went back to eating meat and it, it doesn't matter, you know, what, what you're trying... Like, he, he was living on an organic vegetable farm, like, what, what more healthy, you know, vegetables could he be eating? So-

Joe Rogan 53:03 Yeah, B12 is a big one and B12 essentially only comes from things other than vegetables. You can get some of it from algae, you can get, I mean, you definitely can get it from meat. It's rich in meat.

Michael Hunter 53:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:15 And the other thing is iron. Iron, you know, people say, "Well, there's iron in vegetables." There is, but it's not very bioavailable.

Michael Hunter 53:21 Right.

Joe Rogan 53:21 And a lot of the various vitamins and even protein in vegetables is not very bioavailable in most sources.

Michael Hunter 53:28 And it's how your body absorbs those nutrients as well.

Joe Rogan 53:30 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 53:30 Like, it might, it might be rich in that, that, that substance, but your body can't really absorb it.

Joe Rogan 53:34 Well, it's just, everybody's body is different. I mean, it's just, that is an absolute fact that there are some people that can eat certain diets and be very healthy and then other people eat them and they have a really hard time with them.

Michael Hunter 53:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:45 But the other thing is that most of these people that are talking about how healthy and how great they feel, there's- a lot of it is sort of a placebo effect, and they're not getting blood work done. Uh, uh, everyone, regardless of what your diet is, you should get blood work done just to find out if you have any potential problems that are on the horizon, because there's a lot of times you'll feel okay and then you get your blood work done and the, the doctor will tell you, "Hey, man, you're really low in vitamin B and D and A and, you know, you need this and that, and, you know, this is the s- the health consequences of not having this stuff in your diet." And if you are committed to a vegan diet, there's ways that you can supplement. And this is my advice to people. If you wanna supplement, first of all, uh, algae is a great one. You know, it tastes like shit, but it's g- very good for your body, and you just add it to smoothies, you know, just add it with coconut milk or a b- bunch of other things. You can do it. I mean, you definitely can eat a vegan diet and be healthy, but you gotta be on the ball.

Michael Hunter 54:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:44 You know? And the, the B12 one is a big one. It's a g- you know, massive amounts. I was reading some crazy article the other day that said something like 90% of all vegans are B12 deficient.

Michael Hunter 54:54 I've heard this. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:55 (laughs)

Michael Hunter 54:55 I'm not an expert-

Joe Rogan 54:55 It's terrible.

Michael Hunter 54:55 ... but I've been reading about it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:57 It's terrible. Yeah. It's terrible. Um, there's a guy named Chris Kresser that I've had on my podcast before who's a, a brilliant guy who, um, is, uh, he's an expert in diet nutrition who started out as a macrobiotic vegan and had massive health problems and then switched to eating meat eventually, and then really became a connoisseur of organ meat, which is like probably the most nutrient dense food in the world.

Michael Hunter 55:24 I love-

Joe Rogan 55:24 And-

Michael Hunter 55:25 I love- that's my favorite thing about hunting is the organ meat.

Joe Rogan 55:27 Me too, man. I love liver.

Michael Hunter 55:29 Liver and the heart. Um, I, I, I, I went hunting and I came back and I brought the heart into the restaurant for the guys because I wanted to, you know, share with them like the experience of eating like fresh killed, like the heart was still warm when I brought it to work. And I, uh, the way I like to eat it is either tartare, like just mince it up raw, uh, or cook it like a steak. So I c- I cut it, uh, you know, horizontally in- into like, it looks like a tenderloin steak, uh, and we all got like this like buzz like we just like h- uh, shot a double espresso or something. It was just like, whoa. And it's like, it's so nutrient rich, uh, the organ meat.

Joe Rogan 56:01 I had Alexander Gustafsson on the podcast yesterday. He's a UFC number one lightweight conten- light heavyweight contender.

Michael Hunter 56:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 56:06 Uh-... big Viking motherfucker. But he gets all of his meat from hunting for his training camps and everything like that. He hunts red deer in, in Sweden. It's where he lives. And, uh, we were both talking about how when you eat really nutrient-dense wild game, it gives you, like, a stimulated effect. Like, your body is like, "Yeah."

Michael Hunter 56:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:26 "More of this."

Michael Hunter 56:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:28 "Give me more of this." It's- there's something in it.

Michael Hunter 56:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:31 It-

Michael Hunter 56:31 I don't- I don't know what, and it just tastes- it tastes like it's supposed to taste. It is-

Joe Rogan 56:34 Right.

Michael Hunter 56:35 You can't explain it. The flavor is totally different, even when, you know, w- we're buying from these really cool game farms, it's different than the deer that I go and sh- and shoot, because, you know, that deer I- I just shot could be, like, six, seven years old, versus at the farm, it's maybe one or two.

Joe Rogan 56:49 Right.

Michael Hunter 56:49 Um, but again, it's- it's eating such a diverse diet, and it's, uh, you know, my belief is that that's how we're supposed to be eating.

Joe Rogan 56:56 Well, it's definitely how we were eating for the longest time.

Michael Hunter 57:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:00 And it is entirely possible that if humans ... Like say if you got an isolated group of humans that stuck to a very, very rigid vegan diet for many, many, many generations, it's entirely possible that our genes would adapt to that diet and lifestyle. It's totally possible. The reality of your current physical form is it's most likely not designed for that. And this is just based on genes and on genetics and epigenetics and all the- the v- various things that they've ... methods that they've devised to try to study what makes you a person and where- where your ancestors came from and how did- how did your ancestors develop? Did they eat mostly fish? Like, there's people that live, like, in the- in the Northwest, like the extreme, like in Alaska, and, uh, Inuits and people. Their- their entire history, they've evolved from eating fish and whale and whale blubber and seal and seal fat, and there's real changes to who they are as people, like, th- first of all, one of the big ones is the people that live up there, their hands don't get cold like ours do.

Michael Hunter 58:10 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 58:10 Their hands have better circulation.

Michael Hunter 58:12 I've heard- I've heard that when- when, uh, the indigenous communities, um ... There was some program where they were trying to get them to stop hunting whales or to stop killing seals, and the government was supplementing with- them with, uh, with- with beef and cattle. And their argument was, "This is not what we're supposed to eat. This is not what we're designed to eat. You know, we need the fat in the whale blubber to stay warm."

Joe Rogan 58:32 Yeah. It's kinda-

Michael Hunter 58:33 And it's weird. It's weird. Like, why would we be forcing these people to eat something that, you know, is foreign to them? And it's- it's- it's not ... The- the fat content in- in beef is way different than whale and seal. Like, it's like apples and oranges.

Joe Rogan 58:43 Well, it's also you're looking at what we were talking about before, like white meat from turkey, domestic turkey, versus the- the turkey that's a wild turkey. When you see cows that you get at the- these corn-fed cows, you have this pale meat. That meat is pale 'cause it's not as good for you. It's- it's more filled with fat, which tastes good, but it's just- it's not as nutrient-dense. When you have a moose steak. You've seen a moose steak before, right?

Michael Hunter 59:12 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:12 It's fucking ... It's almost like-

Michael Hunter 59:13 It's lean.

Joe Rogan 59:14 Yeah, but it's almost, like- like-

Michael Hunter 59:16 Purple.

Joe Rogan 59:17 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 59:17 Like dark, dark red.

Joe Rogan 59:18 Dark.

Michael Hunter 59:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:18 It's fucking dark, man.

Michael Hunter 59:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:20 That's- that's way different.

Michael Hunter 59:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:22 It's a way different thing.

Michael Hunter 59:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:24 That cow is just some- it's like th- the fattest, laziest person.

Michael Hunter 59:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:30 You know? Like if you thought about, like take an athlete like LeBron James, who's just like this super athlete, and compare, like, the composition of his body to some fucking slob who just-

Michael Hunter 59:41 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:41 ... drinks soda all day and is tired-

Michael Hunter 59:43 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 59:43 ... is on antidepressants and antibiotics 'cause his body's fucking deteriorating rapidly, he's got arthritis in all of his joints 'cause he's too fat, that literally is a cow. That's literally one of these fucking farm-raised, overstuffed, corn-fed cows, and they grind that fat fuck into a hamburger.

Michael Hunter 1:00:02 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 And it's just not the same. I'm not- uh, you know, I'm not endorsing eating LeBron James, but I'm saying there's a difference in what the- the composition of their body is. It's a different thing. It's a very different thing.

Michael Hunter 1:00:14 Totally.

Joe Rogan 1:00:15 Yeah, I mean, I think wild things, whether it's wild salmon or, you know, even wild vegetables, I think would be probably better for you.

Michael Hunter 1:00:24 So yeah, that's- that's a big part of what I do, is- is, and it's why- one of the reasons why I love nature so much, is- is foraging.

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 Mm.

Michael Hunter 1:00:30 And I take my kids out to the woods and we go pick mushrooms, and since they were, like, you know, babies, my son's been dragged in the woods since he was one. And-

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 What kind of mushrooms?

Michael Hunter 1:00:38 Uh, so my favorite one to harvest where I live is morels.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 Oh, yeah.

Michael Hunter 1:00:42 Uh, they're really funky looking. They kinda look like a brain or something, something weird. Um, uh, there's-

Joe Rogan 1:00:46 I order them online. I've never seen them in the wild.

Michael Hunter 1:00:48 There is nothing that tastes quite like them that you can- you can buy. And they-

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 They're almost like a meat.

Michael Hunter 1:00:53 They're very meaty. They're very meaty. And there's a couple different kinds. There's, like, black ones and- and kinda white or yellowish ones. Um, and they're just, like, it's so fascinating to go out into the wild and- and pick your own food, and when you come home and cook it, like, nothing else tastes like that. And y- like, mushrooms from the store, they're totally different, and it's just- it's something really special that you can go and experience in the wild.

Joe Rogan 1:01:12 Yeah, morels are, uh, a real weird one, and I've been reading up on them. One o- one of the strange things is when there's fire.

Michael Hunter 1:01:19 Forest fires.

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 1:01:20 They pop up, like the next-

Joe Rogan 1:01:21 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 1:01:21 ... the next season, they're like cleansing, they're- they're cleansing the earth. I don't ... I- I'm not a mycologist, so I don't know. Uh, you know, I just enjoy finding them and eating them. (laughs) But I do know there's a cleansing property to decaying, uh, to decaying, uh, matter. So when-

Joe Rogan 1:01:36 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 1:01:36 ... when trees fall down, like, the- the best place to find morels is, uh, I look for trees with no bark on them, so they're- they're really super old, uh, that's called a dead elm tree, and they like the rotting roots of these dead elm trees. And, you know, you're- you're in the bush and- or in the field and you kinda see this one tree that has no bark on it and it's about to fall over. There'll be, like, 20 morels at the base.

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 Wow.

Michael Hunter 1:01:57 And they're- they're kind of- they're feeding off the root system that's underground.

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Yeah, I'm f- absolutely fascinated by mushrooms. I had, uh, Paul Stamets on the podcast. He's-

Michael Hunter 1:02:05 I saw- I saw that one.

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 How great is that guy?

Michael Hunter 1:02:07 Super cool. With his mushroom hat?

Joe Rogan 1:02:08 Man, yeah. (laughs)

Michael Hunter 1:02:09 That was amazing.

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 I've got one if you want one. (laughs)

Michael Hunter 1:02:11 (laughs) Oh, that's awesome.

Joe Rogan 1:02:11 I got ... He gave me two mushroom hats.

Michael Hunter 1:02:12 Oh, that's amazing.

Joe Rogan 1:02:13 What am I gonna do with two? Well, in case one breaks.

Michael Hunter 1:02:15 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 Gotta have an extra mushroom hat. But, you know-

Michael Hunter 1:02:17 There's a really cool documentary actually, um, uh, it's called Know Your Mushrooms, I think, uh, it's by Ron-

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 You better know 'em.

Michael Hunter 1:02:23 By- by Ron Mann, and he- he- he- he travels along with these mushroom hunters, uh, up ... I think a lo- lot of it's in Oregon and up the coast of California and down into Mexico, but they're- they're professional foragers that then go and sell these mushrooms. Uh, but they track these foragers, and it's such a cool movie.

Joe Rogan 1:02:39 That's interesting. Um, the, what I was gonna say is you, you better know mushrooms, 'cause they'll fucking kill you if you don't. (laughs)

Michael Hunter 1:02:44 Well, that- that's the thing, man. It's like, you know, when... My first experiencing foraging for mushrooms, I was, like, an apprentice chef at this restaurant and the chef comes in and was like, "Hey, check these out." And I was like, "Whoa." Like, "What the hell are these?" And he's like, "Oh, they're morels. Like, I found them mountain biking." And there's this stigma, you know. Like, as- as a kid, like, your parents are like, "Don't- don't eat those. Don't touch those. They're poisonous, they'll kill you." And it's like, okay, well... Then you just- you just have this idea, "Well, mushrooms come from the grocery store." Well, it's like, no, they grow... They come in the wild. And, you know, that's- that's like my thing with meat is I- I teach my kids, like, "Meat doesn't come from the grocery store."

Joe Rogan 1:03:14 Right.

Michael Hunter 1:03:14 It's not- it's not in a styrofoam package. That's not where it comes from. It's an animal.

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 Yeah.

Michael Hunter 1:03:18 Um, and- and yeah. And it's just like, you know, mushrooms that grow in the wild and it- they're just- they're crazy. They- they- there's like, myco- micro, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:03:26 Mycorrhizal.

Michael Hunter 1:03:27 Yeah. It's- it's-

Joe Rogan 1:03:28 Yeah, a mycorrhizal relationship with the, uh, animals. Or with the, uh, the trees, rather. Um, do you know the story of the Amanita muscaria?

Michael Hunter 1:03:36 Uh, I know what they are.

Joe Rogan 1:03:37 (laughs)

Michael Hunter 1:03:37 Uh, I don't know the story.

Joe Rogan 1:03:38 The Amanita muscaria is the most fascinating one to me, 'cause that's the one that looks like- looks like Santa Claus.

Michael Hunter 1:03:44 Oh, the Mario Kart mushroom.

Joe Rogan 1:03:45 It's red with white, yeah.

Michael Hunter 1:03:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:46 That is the subject of a book by a guy named John Marco Allegro, who was one of the head scholars, uh, for deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls. He deciphered the Dead Sea Scrolls for 14 years. He was an ordained minister, but he was also, in his study of theology, became agnostic and he sort... When he started realizing that there was all these different religions that had similar stories and he was- you know, found all these, uh, different connections and he was trying- trying to, like, figure out what the origins of all these stories were. Well, after studying the Dead Sea Scrolls for, I think it was 14 years before he wrote this book, he decided that all of Christianity was a massive misunderstanding and what it was originally about was these stories, these collection of stories, that were about fertility rituals and psychedelic mushroom use.

Michael Hunter 1:04:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 And he traced the word Jesus back to an ancient Sumerian word that was a mushroom covered in God's semen. And that when God would come on the Earth... That's what rain was. Rain was God coming on the Earth. And that these mushrooms would rise up out of the ground. They would eat them and trip their fucking balls off, right?

Michael Hunter 1:04:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:57 S-

Michael Hunter 1:04:57 That's a crazy story. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:04:58 So, I mean, you gotta think.

Michael Hunter 1:04:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:00 People that were foraging for food, especially back when there was no agriculture, right? I mean, it was- it was touch and go. You- you could easily starve to death. You- I mean, a- a bad winter, you know, a drought, people would starve to death. It was very, very common. So, they would take foraging extremely serious and they knew what they could eat and they knew what they couldn't eat. Well, they knew that there was a relationship between carniferous trees, and carniferous trees would grow these weird-looking shiny red and white mushrooms under 'em. That's what... Carniferous trees is pine trees. That's what we use for Christmas trees.

Michael Hunter 1:05:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 Those red and white packages, they s- they are like the shiny packages underneath a Christmas tree. They are the color of Santa Claus.

Michael Hunter 1:05:44 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 They're common in Siberia. They're eaten constantly by caribou. Caribou are reindeer. Reindeer are addicted to these, to the point where when people are having psychedelic mushroom rituals and they go outside to take a leak, the caribou will knock them over to get to the Amanita muscaria piss in the sand-

Michael Hunter 1:06:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:04 ... 'cause they smell the Amanita muscaria in the piss. And one of the ways these guys trip their balls off is they eat the mushroom and then they drink their own urine.

Michael Hunter 1:06:13 That's crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:06:13 They have a second process of this. Here's where it gets even crazier. In the times in Siberia where it'd become extremely snowy, when this- the shaman would visit, the way they would get into the house is through the fucking chimney because the door would be snowed in. So they would climb in through the chimney. I mean, there's so many parallels to Santa Claus and to Christianity, to this one mushroom that they think was a massive part of shamanistic rituals. There it is, right there.

Narrator 1:06:41 It says it's Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.

Michael Hunter 1:06:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:42 Yeah. Oh, that is Rudolph-

Michael Hunter 1:06:44 That's so crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:06:44 ... the Red-Nosed Reindeer, I'm sure.

Narrator 1:06:45 (laughs)

Michael Hunter 1:06:45 That's- that's such a cool story.

Joe Rogan 1:06:46 Oh, dude, it's fucking crazy.

Michael Hunter 1:06:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 So he wrote this book called The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross that was bought out by the Catholic Church. This I have to verify, um, but I do know that they stopped production of it. I don't know if it was bought out by the Catholic Church. That's always been what's been told to me. But I do know that they stopped production of it forever. Um, he came out with another book called The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth, which is still available. Then, more recently, like really recently, within the last decade, uh, a guy named Jan Irvin republished, um, the John Marco Allegro books with permission from his family. I think it might have actually been one of those things where when a book is over 25 years old, it becomes, like, public domain or something like that too. But this- this book and this- this story behind it is incredibly fascinating. And what he's basically saying is that... And it makes sense. If you were living thousands of years ago and you stumbled upon these psychedelic mushrooms and you took them, you would experience God. You literally would think that that psychedelic state was you communicating with God. They would wanna hide those from the Romans, so they hid them in parables and stories. And he explains what the original meaning of all these parables and stories are because of course you're going from ancient Hebrew, which is an extremely complicated language that also involves numbers.