Joe Rogan Experience #1105 - Michael Hunter

1. 0:01 – 1:24

   Viral protest at Antler: the venison butchering that sparked outrage

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:01

      Four, three, two, one. Hello, Michael.

   2. MHMichael Hunter0:06

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:07

      Welcome. Thanks, man. Thanks for doing this. Thanks for coming in.

   4. MHMichael Hunter0:09

      100%, man.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:10

      Uh, if people don't know the story, we'll give them the brief synopsis. I found out about your story online because there was this viral thing that was going on about a chef who was getting protested by a bunch of animal rights activists and vegans who decided to camp out in front of your business and try to, uh, uh, the restaurant called Antler in Toronto, try to... I don't know what the fuck they were trying to do. But you decided to butcher, uh, a leg of deer in front of them, and it became this horrific thing, like-

   6. MHMichael Hunter0:43

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan0:43

      ... how could you do that? In a place that serves meat, how could you prepare the meat right in front of them? Like, how did this all get started?

   8. MHMichael Hunter0:51

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan0:52

      How did it become such a crazy viral story? And why, why were they mad at you when there's a million other restaurants around you?

   10. MHMichael Hunter1:01

       All right. So, it started in about December, uh-

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       About.

   12. MHMichael Hunter1:05

       ... about.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       Cl- cl- clue number one-

   14. MHMichael Hunter1:07

       Canadian. (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:08

       ... possibly Canadian.

   16. MHMichael Hunter1:08

       The crazy Canadian.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:09

       (laughs) Besides being nice. (laughs)

   18. MHMichael Hunter1:11

       Um ... Well, that's why it went viral, because I wasn't being nice. I wasn't the stereotypical-

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:15

       Oh.

   20. MHMichael Hunter1:15

       ... Canadian. No, um-

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:16

       Well, you weren't even being mean. You were just doing-

   22. MHMichael Hunter1:18

       No.

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:18

       ... your job in front of them.

   24. MHMichael Hunter1:19

       I was doing my thing. So, they started in December, and they really-

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:23

       I'm trying to keep this right in front of your face, so-

2. 1:24 – 4:07

   How it began: “Venison is the new kale” and a cyclist’s complaint

   1. MHMichael Hunter1:24

      Right. They, they really got pissed off with our ... We have a little chalkboard sign out front. Um, I'll give you the con- ... We have a 45-seat restaurant. So we're a small ... Uh, I have one business partner who's a, a, my best friend and family friend, and, um, we had a little chalkboard sign out front that said, "Venison is the new kale." And, you know, we get cute with our sign. We, we tease other restaurants around us. Like, we have fun with the sign, and it's fun. And, uh, this cyclist vegan, uh, rode by and took huge offense to our sign. And all of a sudden one day these protesters just showed up. So, um, originally I was just kind of frustrated because of they're totally misguided, because, um, we take a lot of pride in where our food comes from. Uh, we have vegan and vegetarian dishes on the menu, uh, and I, I really respect that type of diet. So, we were just totally floored with why this was happening. And, um ... So this started to go on. They started to come every week. And they went from, like, two or three people being kind of peaceful to being like 10, 15 people, not so peaceful. So, uh, it's when it turned not so peaceful, they were shouting at our, at our guests, and shouting in our door, and really trying to harm our business that, uh, I just kind of got fed up, last resort, went down ... We get a whole deer, uh, a couple times a month and we, we butcher it ourselves, and, uh, I just said, "Screw it. Screw it. I'm," like, "I'm gonna get these people to get out of here." So I thought that that would make them go away.

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:52

      (laughs) How did you think that was gonna make them go away and not escalate it?

   3. MHMichael Hunter2:56

      Uh, I don't know. I was just ... It was just totally like last resort. I was totally fed up. Um, I wanted to defend myself, defend our customers, you know. You could see people walking in visibly upset.

   4. JRJoe Rogan3:07

      Yeah.

   5. MHMichael Hunter3:07

      Um, you know, they're being shouted at, being screamed at, called a murderer as they're walking in for dinner. Like, you're going on a date. You wanna have a nice time.

   6. JRJoe Rogan3:14

      Yeah.

   7. MHMichael Hunter3:14

      And then people are screaming at you, uh, you know, just for eating. So, uh, I was just fed up and I just kinda thought like, you know, "Buzz off."

   8. JRJoe Rogan3:22

      And why ... so just one sign-

   9. MHMichael Hunter3:26

      One sign.

   10. JRJoe Rogan3:26

       ... "Venison is the new kale."

   11. MHMichael Hunter3:28

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:28

       One sign.

   13. MHMichael Hunter3:29

       (laughs)

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       Set this whole thing off.

   15. MHMichael Hunter3:31

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:32

       And you're surrounded by restaurants. I mean, I know where you are. You're in Toronto.

   17. MHMichael Hunter3:35

       So we're, so we're surrounded by restaurants and ... There's an actual butcher shop across the street, and if you go in there's like whole cattle hanging-

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:42

       That's okay.

   19. MHMichael Hunter3:42

       ... in their butcher shop. Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:43

       But you're a problem with your comparison to kale. You attacked their sacred kale.

   21. MHMichael Hunter3:48

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:48

       God.

   23. MHMichael Hunter3:49

       We were promoting, uh, meat. I, I don't know.

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:52

       That's what it is?

   25. MHMichael Hunter3:52

       Totally bizarre.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:53

       'Cause you were promoting it-

   27. MHMichael Hunter3:54

       We were promoting it, or, or, or ... Yeah.

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:57

       ... on a sign.

   29. MHMichael Hunter3:57

       No idea.

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:57

       So if you just didn't promote anything-
3. 4:07 – 4:50

   Escalation: shouting at guests, police presence, and an extortion-like demand

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:07

      How many times a day? I'm sorry. How many times a day protest you?

   2. MHMichael Hunter4:09

      Um, I think it's about eight now. Eight. They're coming weekly.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:13

      They still do?

   4. MHMichael Hunter4:14

      They still do. There's one this Friday.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:16

      Oh, Jesus.

   6. MHMichael Hunter4:16

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:16

      So they organize them.

   8. MHMichael Hunter4:17

      They, they organize them. There's like Facebook groups. There's, uh ... They're, they're basically giving us an ultimatum. We have to put their slogan in our window and they'll go away. But-

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:26

      What?

   10. MHMichael Hunter4:27

       Yeah. (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan4:28

       What's their slogan?

   12. MHMichael Hunter4:30

       Um-

   13. JRJoe Rogan4:30

       "We are cunts?"

   14. MHMichael Hunter4:31

       (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan4:33

       (laughs)

   16. MHMichael Hunter4:33

       There's, there's like ... I, I can't remember it, you know, word for word, but it's, you know, like, "Killing animals is wrong. They have feelings." You know?

   17. JRJoe Rogan4:40

       What?

   18. MHMichael Hunter4:40

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:41

       Do you have to put that in your window?

   20. MHMichael Hunter4:42

       Well, we don't ... We're not going to.

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:43

       But-

   22. MHMichael Hunter4:43

       There's no way. Absolutely-

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:43

       ... but that's what they want?

   24. MHMichael Hunter4:44

       That's what they want. Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan4:45

       That's hilarious.

   26. MHMichael Hunter4:45

       So it's like eco-terrorism, extortion, whatever you wanna call it.

4. 4:50 – 7:22

   Ethical meat vs. ‘all meat is murder’: why Antler became an ideological target

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:50

      Wow. W- well, the part, the part of this that drives me the most crazy is the fact that you're surrounded by restaurants.

   2. MHMichael Hunter4:59

      We're surrounded by restaurants.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:00

      You're surrounded by ... Like you said, you're across the street from a butcher shop. 97% of the people in the world eat meat. It's something, something crazy like that. I mean, I'm sure everyone hasn't really been polled. I'm sure it's not that accurate. But it's somewhere between 95% and 97%.

   4. MHMichael Hunter5:16

      It's, it's big. It's big. And I think, you know, we're an easy target, you know. Our name is Antler. We were ... I think they're mad because, um, you know, their, their thing is that we're promoting ethical farming. And their beliefs is there is no such thing as eth- ethical farming.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:33

      Right.

   6. MHMichael Hunter5:33

      That all meat is murder. And, um, you know, if you look up murder in the dictionary, it has to do with humans.

   7. JRJoe Rogan5:38

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MHMichael Hunter5:38

      You know? It has nothing to do with animals. And, um, there is such a thing as ethical farming and sustainable farming, and we work really hard to make sure that where we get our meat from is, uh, from the best possible place we can and it's local, so it's supporting our local farmers that are, you know, within hours of our restaurant.

   9. JRJoe Rogan5:57

      Now, when you say that they started out nice, like, how many people were there in the beginning?

   10. MHMichael Hunter6:02

       Two, three, four.

   11. JRJoe Rogan6:03

       And they had signs?

   12. MHMichael Hunter6:03

       And they weren't ... They had signs, and they were just kinda, you know, promoting their message, but they weren't really yelling and screaming and ...

   13. JRJoe Rogan6:10

       What escalated it?

   14. MHMichael Hunter6:11

       ... um, so we would call the police. We, we kind of got wind of it on their Facebook groups. So we would call the police and have the police there to make sure everyone's safe because one thing, like, customers are scared, our staff are scared. Like, no one's dealt with this before. I've never dealt with this before. Um, so we would have the police there. You know, they were r- the police were amazing. Um, and then, you know, one time we kind of thought, "Okay, let's not call the police. Let's see what happens. Like, maybe it'll just ... they'll go away." And, uh, so then like a megaphone came out. Uh, our neighbors were coming down and getting in fights with them and it was, it was ugly. So we called the police to come and-

   15. JRJoe Rogan6:47

       Jesus Christ.

   16. MHMichael Hunter6:48

       ... you know, keep the peace. Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan6:49

       A megaphone?

   18. MHMichael Hunter6:50

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan6:51

       (sighs) Part of the problem with these kind of things is it becomes a contest. It becomes, uh, a battle. You know, trying to see who's gonna win.

   20. MHMichael Hunter6:59

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JRJoe Rogan6:59

       And they're absolutely on a team. I mean, this, th- that's one of the things that happens with veganism and I think it happens with hunters too. (coughs) Excuse me. Uh, people become very tribal.

   22. MHMichael Hunter7:11

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan7:11

       You know, and, you know, it's us versus them and they want to win. And then it becomes this thing where, uh, you know ... Look, the reality is a lot of people are idiots-

   24. MHMichael Hunter7:22

       (laughs)

5. 7:22 – 9:53

   The factory farming problem—and why hunting/ethical sourcing is a different conversation

   1. JRJoe Rogan7:22

      ... and they don't have a lot going on in their life. And so when something comes up where it becomes a, a primary focus of their life, one restaurant, as illogical as it might be, that becomes the battleground. And it's an ideological battleground for, you know, "Don't eat meat ever." Versus sustainable farming, you know, this, the ... Look, I'm sure ... I know you're a hunter. I'm sure you feel a certain amount of remorse when an animal dies.

   2. MHMichael Hunter7:50

      100%. And, yeah, that's a big part of sort of my beliefs and my philosophy and, uh, why I'm working on this cookbook right now is because, uh, I think that, you know, if you do eat meat, you should be able to kill an animal and experience that. And I, I think that if, if people were to actually kill an animal, they would see, you know, what goes into that. And I don't think people would consume as much meat and I don't think people would definitely ... You know, they certainly wouldn't waste as much meat, um, as they do. And it's, it's just really upsetting and I think it's totally misguided, you know, why we were targeted.

   3. JRJoe Rogan8:22

      Well, I mean, uh, like I said, I think it just becomes a game.

   4. MHMichael Hunter8:25

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan8:25

      It, it becomes a, the big tribal game. You know, there's, there's a real argument, a real argument that I support against factory farming and factory farming is the way most people are getting their meat in terms of, like ... in terms of, like, cheeseburgers and fast food and stuff along those lines. I mean, you're not getting it from the most ethical sources. It's just, uh, it's not financially sustainable to do it that way. Everything would cost more money.

   6. MHMichael Hunter8:53

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan8:53

      And, uh, that's a real problem that we as a society ... It's not obviously not you or I that has-

   8. MHMichael Hunter8:59

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan8:59

      ... set up the system, but that this system is a system that we find ourselves a part of.

   10. MHMichael Hunter9:04

       Mm-hmm.

   11. JRJoe Rogan9:05

       It's a real problem. I've removed myself from it for the most part, but occasionally I'm on the road and I'm hungry and, you know, I'll eat some meat that's just whatever.

   12. MHMichael Hunter9:14

       Totally. It's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan9:15

       I-

   14. MHMichael Hunter9:15

       It's a necessary evil. You know, uh, in sort of, sort of, but-

   15. JRJoe Rogan9:18

       Sort of. I mean, it's not really necessary.

   16. MHMichael Hunter9:19

       It's not really necessary at all. That maybe that's the wrong way to describe it, but i- it's how the system's been set up and it's, it's actually why I started hunting and, and doing what I do because I watched these documentaries like Food, Inc., and these things that kind of shone a light on, you know, the system and how this stuff is actually being produced and it's horrible. It's, uh, it's terrifying.

   17. JRJoe Rogan9:37

       It really is.

   18. MHMichael Hunter9:37

       Yeah. And-

   19. JRJoe Rogan9:38

       That ... And I think that's the real number one problem.

   20. MHMichael Hunter9:40

       And, you know, and this vegan activist message to go after, you know, these types of farming, you know, we support as well and we agree with.

   21. JRJoe Rogan9:48

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MHMichael Hunter9:48

       So the fact that we were targeted for this, um, was really, really frustrating.

6. 9:53 – 16:45

   Why some animals must be harvested: wild pigs, deer overpopulation, and Lyme disease

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:53

      Yeah. I think vegans, um ... I understand where they're coming from, but I don't think that they have seen the big picture and the big picture is there's some animals that need to be harvested. They, th- they're not sustainable. Wild pigs is the best example.

   2. MHMichael Hunter10:09

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:09

      There, there is no way you are going to stop wild pigs without killing them.

   4. MHMichael Hunter10:13

      No.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:13

      There's no way. You're not gonna give them birth control. You're not going to ... Unless you're gonna let loose fucking packs of wolves, and I mean packs, to deal with, like, what's going on in Texas. The, the ... I mean, they, they're forced to shoot them out of helicopters. They hire-

   6. MHMichael Hunter10:29

      That's crazy.

   7. JRJoe Rogan10:30

      They hire people to come in with helicopters and shoot them from the sky. It's that bad. And this is farmers.

   8. MHMichael Hunter10:35

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan10:36

      There's companies called Hella Hunting where the, the-

   10. MHMichael Hunter10:39

       (laughs) That's crazy.

   11. JRJoe Rogan10:39

       I mean, uh, they have it on the side. Like, they have a wild boar and a fucking helicopter blade on their logo.

   12. MHMichael Hunter10:43

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan10:43

       It's crazy. They have to do it.

   14. MHMichael Hunter10:46

       Yeah. No. And I, I don't, I don't have a lot of experience with that because where I am, we don't have that wild boar problem, but, uh, I, I hunt with these guys from, from Mossy Oak and I've gone down there and done one of these pig hunts and they've shown me their fields and, like, 1/3 of their cornfield is just destroyed.

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:02

       Destroyed.

   16. MHMichael Hunter11:03

       And they have to hunt them at night or they hunt them, uh, with dogs and, uh, i- it's a huge problem for farmers trying to make a living.

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:11

       It is a huge problem. And vegans themselves need to understand that's your food supply.

   18. MHMichael Hunter11:15

       Totally.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:15

       You're, you're not growing your own food mostly. Most people listening to this that are vegan-

   20. MHMichael Hunter11:19

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:19

       ... are not growing their own food. You're getting your own food from a farm. That farm is getting attacked by pigs. That's only one animal. Another one is deer. I mean, there's a shitload of deer in North America. What's interesting is California has a very weird way of handling it, and I kind of get it in some ways. The weird way that we handle it in California is we don't hunt mountain lions.

   22. MHMichael Hunter11:39

       Okay.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:39

       There's no mountain lion hunting. This is very few deer.

   24. MHMichael Hunter11:42

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan11:42

       I mean, I see deer in my neighborhood. You know, I, I live in a fairly rural area.

   26. MHMichael Hunter11:46

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan11:47

       I see deer, you know, a couple times a week, but it's nothing like if you go to the East Coast. Have you ever been in the east coast of California or of, uh, uh, the United States, like New York State? That kind of area?

   28. MHMichael Hunter11:59

       I've been ... N- New York City, yeah. I have been to the, uh, the East Coast, no.

   29. JRJoe Rogan12:02

       The state, if you go upstate, like New York State-

   30. MHMichael Hunter12:05

       Yeah.
7. 16:45 – 18:24

   Hunters as conservation funders: tags, licenses, and the Pittman–Robertson model

   1. MHMichael Hunter16:45

      100%. They don't get it, they don't understand. Uh, you know, they live in their bubble and, you know, another thing they don't understand is that hunters actually, you know, we have to buy tags, we have to buy our licenses. There are rules and laws that we have to follow, and those fees actually pay for the wildlife conservation, and I, I'm pretty sure-

   2. JRJoe Rogan17:01

      Yeah.

   3. MHMichael Hunter17:01

      ... it's the same in the States as well, from at least talking to my friends. And-

   4. JRJoe Rogan17:04

      It is.

   5. MHMichael Hunter17:04

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan17:05

      It's the Pickman-Robertson Act. It's-

   7. MHMichael Hunter17:06

      And they don't understand.

   8. JRJoe Rogan17:07

      I think it's 11% of all the m- the proceeds from hunting gear go to wildlife conservation, and that turns out to be billions and billions of dollars.

   9. MHMichael Hunter17:16

      Uh-huh.

   10. JRJoe Rogan17:16

       It's far more than any other conservation group, far more than any wildlife conservation group or animal activist group. No one contributes more to conversation than hunting.

   11. MHMichael Hunter17:28

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:29

       No one.

   13. MHMichael Hunter17:29

       'Cause we want it, we want it to be there for our kids and their kids, and it's, it's nature, it's, it's how the world is supposed to be.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:34

       It's also this contradictory thing that seems, it seems like it doesn't make sense, but we love the wildlife.

   15. MHMichael Hunter17:40

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:40

       We love the animals. Just because you eat them doesn't mean you don't love them, but you recognize them as, this is a weird way to look at it, but it is a renewable resource.

   17. MHMichael Hunter17:49

       Right.

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:49

       And it is also a magical, beautiful thing. Just because of that doesn't mean you shouldn't eat it.

   19. MHMichael Hunter17:55

       Yeah.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:55

       I mean, it- it's, this, this disconnect that people have with the wild, I think, is a real part of it, a real part of the problem. Good luck finding a vegan in Alaska.

   21. MHMichael Hunter18:06

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:06

       You know, there's not a whole lot of them that live out in the bush that are vegans. I mean they're eating salmon-

   23. MHMichael Hunter18:11

       What are they, what are they gonna eat? (laughs)

   24. JRJoe Rogan18:11

       ... and they're eating ... I mean you can, you can bring in vegetables, I mean-

   25. MHMichael Hunter18:14

       Right.

   26. JRJoe Rogan18:14

       ... I'm sure there are some, I'm just talking shit. But the reality is, if you are, if you're embedded in that world-

   27. MHMichael Hunter18:20

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:20

       ... you understand it and you appreciate it and it, it's very humbling.

   29. MHMichael Hunter18:24

       Yeah.

8. 18:24 – 28:09

   Humility of killing, suffering in the wild, and the ethics of a clean shot

   1. JRJoe Rogan18:24

      I mean, killing an animal is very humbling. I mean, it sounds like, to someone who's an animal lover, that sounds fucking crazy.

   2. MHMichael Hunter18:29

      It's hard. It's also really hard. Like, when I see a deer come out, I hunt with a, with a bow, a crossbow, and I see a deer come out, it's ...... I'm trembling, I have the hair on my back that's standing up. They are these beautiful, majestic creatures and I'm gonna kill it. And it's, it's really, really difficult and I don't think that people understand that, th- that don't hunt and that haven't killed an animal, they don't understand the respect and the amount of effort that goes into that.

   3. JRJoe Rogan18:55

      No, they definitely don't, but they don't care. I mean, what ... Th- they have an idea and the idea is animals should not die.

   4. MHMichael Hunter19:01

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan19:02

      But they're going to die. It's, they're going to die of old age, they're gonna die of starvation, they're gonna freeze to death, they're gonna-

   6. MHMichael Hunter19:07

      They're gonna be eaten alive.

   7. JRJoe Rogan19:07

      ... they're gonna be eaten alive.

   8. MHMichael Hunter19:08

      And, eh, people think that animals, they, they die peacefully in the wild, it's, uh, it's absolutely incorrect, um, if you, you know, Google anything, um, about how animals die in the wild, and they're being eaten alive. Like, deer are being taken down and eaten alive by wolves, or coyotes, or whatever it is.

   9. JRJoe Rogan19:22

      Or bears.

   10. MHMichael Hunter19:23

       Bears. And it's, it's horrific.

   11. JRJoe Rogan19:24

       Yeah.

   12. MHMichael Hunter19:25

       And to be shot with an arrow, to be shot with a bullet, it's a way more humane way to go, uh, in my, in my opinion.

   13. JRJoe Rogan19:31

       Oh, it's, it's unquestionably a more humane way to go. I mean, it's the, one of the reasons why, you know, I hunt, um, and I practice so much. I practice every day. I have a ... One of the reasons why we got this building is so I can put a 45-yard-

   14. MHMichael Hunter19:43

       I saw that. (laughs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan19:43

       ... indoor archery range.

   16. MHMichael Hunter19:44

       I saw that. (laughs) I wanna shoot it.

   17. JRJoe Rogan19:45

       You have to practice.

   18. MHMichael Hunter19:46

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan19:46

       Well, we can shoot afterwards, but-

   20. MHMichael Hunter19:47

       Awesome.

   21. JRJoe Rogan19:47

       ... you have to fucking practice.

   22. MHMichael Hunter19:49

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan19:49

       You, you have to be ... You have to be able to make an ethical shot. But now, when I sit down and I cook something for my family, I know where that came from.

   24. MHMichael Hunter19:59

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan19:59

       If we have vegetables that we grew in our garden, there's a great satisfaction-

   26. MHMichael Hunter20:03

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan20:03

       ... for serving up some cucumbers or some, some kale, or whatever it is that we grew in our garden to-

   28. MHMichael Hunter20:07

       And it tastes better. When you, when you go out there and you cut that cucumber off the plant and you cut that kale down, it is like half an hour old.

   29. JRJoe Rogan20:15

       Yes.

   30. MHMichael Hunter20:15

       You know? And it, it like ... Nothing compares to that freshness that you go to the grocery store that may be a couple of days, a week, a month old, you have no idea. And for me as a chef, um, that's why I love hunting and foraging and having a garden in my backyard because when you go and pick something, nothing tastes as good as that.
9. 28:09 – 34:53

   Antler’s sourcing philosophy and a long detour into wild pigs and weird animal facts

   1. MHMichael Hunter28:09

      Right. That's one, that's one of the- the things that we do at- at Antler is to- is to find those farmers and guys like that. One of the farms we get our deer from, they have a thousand acres. The deer roam as they please. They're eating nuts and apples and acorns and grass and everything they're supposed to eat, uh, and then when it's time, they're- they're collected and harvested.

   2. JRJoe Rogan28:28

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MHMichael Hunter28:28

      And that, that is where we get our meat from and- and we try really hard not to buy from these factory... We don't serve chicken, beef, or pork. We have bison, pheasant, duck, uh, wild boar because, you know, these game farms, they don't have these massive large-scale operations and I- I buy direct from the farmer and they can tell me what their diet is. You know, uh, what are their good months, their bad months. We- we know all about these animals that we're bringing to the restaurant and, um, and, you know, we're really proud of that.

   4. JRJoe Rogan28:57

      I have an, uh, an issue with people that keep saying "wild boar."

   5. MHMichael Hunter29:01

      Right.

   6. JRJoe Rogan29:01

      Why do they say wild boar when it's wild pig?

   7. MHMichael Hunter29:04

      So it's-

   8. JRJoe Rogan29:05

      A boar is a male.

   9. MHMichael Hunter29:05

      ... it actually is a different breed. So the- the- the pigs that are in these, you know, factory farms or even regular, regular pigs, there's- there's tot- there's many different breeds and a lot of them are hybrid, hybrid, um, breeds. The- the wild boar breed has long black hair and tusks that actually come out. So, um, I can buy whole pigs and they- they don't have those tusks and when I buy the wild boar breed, the meat is darker. Uh, the- the hair is black but w- we're getting them, you know, there's no hair by the time we get them. Um, and they've got the tusks, uh, in the jaw.

   10. JRJoe Rogan29:35

       Right. But my point is that a boar is a male.

   11. MHMichael Hunter29:37

       Right.

   12. JRJoe Rogan29:37

       You're- you're definitely eating females too.

   13. MHMichael Hunter29:39

       That's true.

   14. JRJoe Rogan29:40

       Yeah, so why do they call it a wild boar? Because it's the sow.

   15. MHMichael Hunter29:42

       Because it's just the breed. Yeah, it's just the breed.

   16. JRJoe Rogan29:44

       Yeah, but they're, do you know that they're all the same breed?

   17. MHMichael Hunter29:47

       I did not know that. (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan29:48

       They're all Sus scrofa is the-

   19. MHMichael Hunter29:50

       Okay.

   20. JRJoe Rogan29:50

       ... the- the, I guess the genus. Is that what you say?

   21. MHMichael Hunter29:53

       Yes.

   22. JRJoe Rogan29:53

       Um, they're all sort of interchangeable.

   23. MHMichael Hunter29:56

       Right. Well, there's like-

   24. JRJoe Rogan29:57

       They're- they all breed with each other.

   25. MHMichael Hunter29:57

       ... I do know there's- there's tons of different varieties, like there's the Berkshire, there's Tamworth, there's all these different kinds of breeds.

   26. JRJoe Rogan30:02

       Sure.

   27. MHMichael Hunter30:03

       Breeds of hogs.

   28. JRJoe Rogan30:03

       They've- there's variations-

   29. MHMichael Hunter30:04

       Yeah.

   30. JRJoe Rogan30:05

       ... but they're all the same animal.
10. 34:53 – 1:00:24

    Michael’s origin story: first wild turkey hunt and discovering ‘what food should taste like’

    1. JRJoe Rogan34:53

       They're delicious, too.

    2. MHMichael Hunter34:54

       Yeah. That's actually the, the first bird I hunted. I didn't actually start hunting until I was in my 20s. And, um, I had grown up cooking. Um, I was interested in becoming a chef. And, uh, a family friend told me he was going turkey hunting, and I said, "Well, what do you mean you're going turkey hunting?" Like, I thought turkeys were ... I didn't know there was such thing as wild turkey. I thought they were, uh, you know, uh, uh, a domesticated bird like a chicken. So, he takes me turkey hunting, and, um, I- I actually, I couldn't believe it. We, you know, we shot a couple birds. Um, you know, we plucked them out, and then the skin was yellow, and the- the meat is dark. Like, like the chicken leg meat is like the breast, like it's dark.

    3. JRJoe Rogan35:29

       Yeah.

    4. MHMichael Hunter35:29

       And I just thought like, "Wow," like, "This is incredible." And then when I tasted it, I- I just couldn't believe that this is what turkey was supposed to taste like.

    5. JRJoe Rogan35:37

       Yeah.

    6. MHMichael Hunter35:37

       And then-

    7. JRJoe Rogan35:37

       It's a robust flavor.

    8. MHMichael Hunter35:38

       And you grow up, you know, at least I grew up at, you know, Christmas, Thanksgiving, these- these important holidays eating turkey, and you see it, and it's this big white blob and it's humongous.

    9. JRJoe Rogan35:46

       Yeah.

    10. MHMichael Hunter35:46

        And then, you know, a wild bird, it's leaner. It's not like, super round. It's, it's, it's lean. It's- it's h- how it's supposed to be. And then for me, that was like the light bulb moment that this is what we're supposed to be eating. We're not supposed to be eating that shit.

    11. JRJoe Rogan35:59

        Yeah. That shit, that, that really white meat turkey. Look at him. There's a turkey in Toronto.

    12. MHMichael Hunter36:03

        (laughs)

    13. JRJoe Rogan36:03

        Turkey in Toronto running down the street.

    14. MHMichael Hunter36:05

        I'm so thankful to be here-

    15. JRJoe Rogan36:07

        Wow.

    16. MHMichael Hunter36:07

        ... 'cause it's, it's still snowing in Toronto.

    17. JRJoe Rogan36:08

        Is it really?

    18. MHMichael Hunter36:09

        It's still snowing. And I- I love winter and snowboarding and going out and enjoying the snow, but I'm done. (laughs)

    19. JRJoe Rogan36:15

        California, baby. Come on down. (laughs)

    20. MHMichael Hunter36:17

        Yeah, man.

    21. JRJoe Rogan36:18

        I was talking to a buddy of mine from Montana on the phone yesterday, and it was fucking freezing cold up there, thick snow everywhere, and, you know, they're, uh, about to, uh, open up their bear season. And he's like, "Jesus Christ, it's f- f-"

    22. MHMichael Hunter36:30

        (laughs)

    23. JRJoe Rogan36:30

        " ... snow is everywhere." And I'm like, "Dude, I'm in my underwear right now outside."

    24. MHMichael Hunter36:33

        I l- I love it here, man.

    25. JRJoe Rogan36:34

        (laughs)

    26. MHMichael Hunter36:34

        I have a soft spot for, uh, for California. I've been, I've been coming here since I was a little kid, uh, to visit my dad in the summers, and, uh, I come here two or three times a year and I love it.

    27. JRJoe Rogan36:43

        I love it, too. Uh, you know, the mountain lion thing is a weird thing with California because I- I see their point. What they, what they've e- essentially done is-And this is, o- o- one of the weird things about California is like, California is one of the places that doesn't have a fish and game department.

    28. MHMichael Hunter37:01

        Really?

    29. JRJoe Rogan37:01

        Yeah, it's like-

    30. MHMichael Hunter37:02

        I did not know that.
11. 1:00:24 – 1:03:28

    Foraging deep dive: morels, chanterelles, chicken-of-the-woods, and mushroom biology

    1. MHMichael Hunter1:00:24

       So yeah, that's- that's a big part of what I do, is- is, and it's why- one of the reasons why I love nature so much, is- is foraging.

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:00:30

       Mm.

    3. MHMichael Hunter1:00:30

       And I take my kids out to the woods and we go pick mushrooms, and since they were, like, you know, babies, my son's been dragged in the woods since he was one. And-

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:00:37

       What kind of mushrooms?

    5. MHMichael Hunter1:00:38

       Uh, so my favorite one to harvest where I live is morels.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:00:41

       Oh, yeah.

    7. MHMichael Hunter1:00:42

       Uh, they're really funky looking. They kinda look like a brain or something, something weird. Um, uh, there's-

    8. JRJoe Rogan1:00:46

       I order them online. I've never seen them in the wild.

    9. MHMichael Hunter1:00:48

       There is nothing that tastes quite like them that you can- you can buy. And they-

    10. JRJoe Rogan1:00:52

        They're almost like a meat.

    11. MHMichael Hunter1:00:53

        They're very meaty. They're very meaty. And there's a couple different kinds. There's, like, black ones and- and kinda white or yellowish ones. Um, and they're just, like, it's so fascinating to go out into the wild and- and pick your own food, and when you come home and cook it, like, nothing else tastes like that. And y- like, mushrooms from the store, they're totally different, and it's just- it's something really special that you can go and experience in the wild.

    12. JRJoe Rogan1:01:12

        Yeah, morels are, uh, a real weird one, and I've been reading up on them. One o- one of the strange things is when there's fire.

    13. MHMichael Hunter1:01:19

        Forest fires.

    14. JRJoe Rogan1:01:19

        Yeah.

    15. MHMichael Hunter1:01:20

        They pop up, like the next-

    16. JRJoe Rogan1:01:21

        Yeah.

    17. MHMichael Hunter1:01:21

        ... the next season, they're like cleansing, they're- they're cleansing the earth. I don't ... I- I'm not a mycologist, so I don't know. Uh, you know, I just enjoy finding them and eating them. (laughs) But I do know there's a cleansing property to decaying, uh, to decaying, uh, matter. So when-

    18. JRJoe Rogan1:01:36

        Yeah.

    19. MHMichael Hunter1:01:36

        ... when trees fall down, like, the- the best place to find morels is, uh, I look for trees with no bark on them, so they're- they're really super old, uh, that's called a dead elm tree, and they like the rotting roots of these dead elm trees. And, you know, you're- you're in the bush and- or in the field and you kinda see this one tree that has no bark on it and it's about to fall over. There'll be, like, 20 morels at the base.

    20. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

        Wow.

    21. MHMichael Hunter1:01:57

        And they're- they're kind of- they're feeding off the root system that's underground.

    22. JRJoe Rogan1:02:00

        Yeah, I'm f- absolutely fascinated by mushrooms. I had, uh, Paul Stamets on the podcast. He's-

    23. MHMichael Hunter1:02:05

        I saw- I saw that one.

    24. JRJoe Rogan1:02:06

        How great is that guy?

    25. MHMichael Hunter1:02:07

        Super cool. With his mushroom hat?

    26. JRJoe Rogan1:02:08

        Man, yeah. (laughs)

    27. MHMichael Hunter1:02:09

        That was amazing.

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:02:10

        I've got one if you want one. (laughs)

    29. MHMichael Hunter1:02:11

        (laughs) Oh, that's awesome.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:02:11

        I got ... He gave me two mushroom hats.
12. 1:03:28 – 1:12:18

    Psychedelic mushroom mythology: Amanita muscaria, Santa Claus parallels, and shaman rituals

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:03:28

       Yeah, a mycorrhizal relationship with the, uh, animals. Or with the, uh, the trees, rather. Um, do you know the story of the Amanita muscaria?

    2. MHMichael Hunter1:03:36

       Uh, I know what they are.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:03:37

       (laughs)

    4. MHMichael Hunter1:03:37

       Uh, I don't know the story.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:03:38

       The Amanita muscaria is the most fascinating one to me, 'cause that's the one that looks like- looks like Santa Claus.

    6. MHMichael Hunter1:03:44

       Oh, the Mario Kart mushroom.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:03:45

       It's red with white, yeah.

    8. MHMichael Hunter1:03:46

       Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:03:46

       That is the subject of a book by a guy named John Marco Allegro, who was one of the head scholars, uh, for deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls. He deciphered the Dead Sea Scrolls for 14 years. He was an ordained minister, but he was also, in his study of theology, became agnostic and he sort... When he started realizing that there was all these different religions that had similar stories and he was- you know, found all these, uh, different connections and he was trying- trying to, like, figure out what the origins of all these stories were. Well, after studying the Dead Sea Scrolls for, I think it was 14 years before he wrote this book, he decided that all of Christianity was a massive misunderstanding and what it was originally about was these stories, these collection of stories, that were about fertility rituals and psychedelic mushroom use.

    10. MHMichael Hunter1:04:36

        (laughs)

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:04:36

        And he traced the word Jesus back to an ancient Sumerian word that was a mushroom covered in God's semen. And that when God would come on the Earth... That's what rain was. Rain was God coming on the Earth. And that these mushrooms would rise up out of the ground. They would eat them and trip their fucking balls off, right?

    12. MHMichael Hunter1:04:56

        (laughs)

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:04:57

        S-

    14. MHMichael Hunter1:04:57

        That's a crazy story. (laughs)

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:04:58

        So, I mean, you gotta think.

    16. MHMichael Hunter1:04:59

        Yeah.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:05:00

        People that were foraging for food, especially back when there was no agriculture, right? I mean, it was- it was touch and go. You- you could easily starve to death. You- I mean, a- a bad winter, you know, a drought, people would starve to death. It was very, very common. So, they would take foraging extremely serious and they knew what they could eat and they knew what they couldn't eat. Well, they knew that there was a relationship between carniferous trees, and carniferous trees would grow these weird-looking shiny red and white mushrooms under 'em. That's what... Carniferous trees is pine trees. That's what we use for Christmas trees.

    18. MHMichael Hunter1:05:36

        Yeah.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:05:36

        Those red and white packages, they s- they are like the shiny packages underneath a Christmas tree. They are the color of Santa Claus.

    20. MHMichael Hunter1:05:44

        Yeah.

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:05:45

        They're common in Siberia. They're eaten constantly by caribou. Caribou are reindeer. Reindeer are addicted to these, to the point where when people are having psychedelic mushroom rituals and they go outside to take a leak, the caribou will knock them over to get to the Amanita muscaria piss in the sand-

    22. MHMichael Hunter1:06:04

        (laughs)

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:06:04

        ... 'cause they smell the Amanita muscaria in the piss. And one of the ways these guys trip their balls off is they eat the mushroom and then they drink their own urine.

    24. MHMichael Hunter1:06:13

        That's crazy.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:06:13

        They have a second process of this. Here's where it gets even crazier. In the times in Siberia where it'd become extremely snowy, when this- the shaman would visit, the way they would get into the house is through the fucking chimney because the door would be snowed in. So they would climb in through the chimney. I mean, there's so many parallels to Santa Claus and to Christianity, to this one mushroom that they think was a massive part of shamanistic rituals. There it is, right there.

    26. NANarrator1:06:41

        It says it's Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.

    27. MHMichael Hunter1:06:42

        (laughs)

    28. JRJoe Rogan1:06:42

        Yeah. Oh, that is Rudolph-

    29. MHMichael Hunter1:06:44

        That's so crazy.

    30. JRJoe Rogan1:06:44

        ... the Red-Nosed Reindeer, I'm sure.

Episode duration: 1:46:26