CHAPTERS
- 0:01 – 1:28
Keto science influences: Dr. Peter Attia, micronutrients, and questioning assumptions
Joe and Zach open by discussing Dr. Peter Attia and why his approach resonates in the low-carb/high-fat world. Zach highlights how many nutrition recommendations are based on high-carb diets, and why that may change nutrient needs in ketosis.
- •Dr. Attia as an early, influential voice for Zach in high-fat nutrition
- •Micronutrient requirements may differ depending on metabolic context
- •Why keto research often clashes with standard-diet assumptions
- •Curiosity-driven experimentation as a theme for the episode
- 1:28 – 3:18
From “average” runner to ultramarathons: early races, prize money, and rapid progression
Zach explains his running background and how he moved from college-distance races into ultras. A local Wisconsin ultra with prize money hooked him, leading to a quick escalation in volume and ambition.
- •High school/college running background and self-described “average” competitiveness
- •First ultra in 2010 motivated partly by a $1,000 purse
- •Winning early races as a catalyst for going deeper into ultras
- •Jumping in with multiple 50-milers within weeks
- 3:18 – 9:24
Why ultras are addictive: success, long-run preference, and solving problems mid-race
Joe presses Zach on what makes ultramarathons compelling. Zach frames the appeal as part enjoyment of long training, part the endless variable-management and problem-solving required over many hours.
- •Small early success can reinforce commitment
- •Long runs as Zach’s favorite training component
- •Ultras as logistics + decision-making under fatigue
- •The “never again… sign up tomorrow” phenomenon
- 9:24 – 15:10
Track vs trail ultras: mental strain, logistics, and biomechanical wear-and-tear
They compare the psychological and physical differences between running 100 miles on a track versus on trails. Zach explains the mental monotony of loops, but also the logistical simplicity of having everything at arm’s reach.
- •Historical roots of extreme endurance events (six-day spectacles)
- •Track ultras: monotony, dissociation strategies, and repetitive stress
- •Trail ultras: scenery variety but more complex aid-station consequences
- •Specificity in training: preparing the body for the exact surface and demands
- 15:10 – 20:30
Why Zach tried keto: sleep disruption, swelling, energy crashes, and “clean” high-carb eating
Zach describes the health signals that pushed him to experiment with ketogenic dieting despite already eating a “clean” high-carb athlete diet. Sleep fragmentation, swelling, frequent nighttime urination, and big energy swings made his training feel unsustainable.
- •Symptoms emerging during heavy training blocks (sleep, swelling, fatigue)
- •Pre-keto diet: oatmeal/fruit/eggs and “healthy” whole-food carbs
- •Influences: Volek, Phinney, podcasts, and learning while training
- •Early experimentation mindset: try it, measure effects, revert if needed
- 20:30 – 23:55
Adapting keto for performance: keto flu, sleep improvements, and the “missing last gear”
Zach explains the adaptation period and how strict keto changed his day-to-day energy and sleep. He also notes the tradeoff: pure strict ketosis made top-end speed sessions harder until he refined his approach.
- •Initial strict threshold (~50g carbs/day) and adaptation timeline
- •Feeling good for daily life but inconsistent running days early on
- •Sleep improvements as one of the strongest early signals
- •High-intensity speed work revealing limitations of strict keto
- 23:55 – 27:55
Periodized carbs and metabolic flexibility: using ketosis as a tool, not a religion
Zach outlines how his diet changes across the training year and even within a day. The goal isn’t constant ketosis—it’s the ability to burn fat efficiently while still accessing carbohydrates when double sessions and speed demand quicker glycogen replenishment.
- •Periodization: “peak training week vs recovery week” look like different lifestyles
- •Carbs reintroduced for performance and recovery between repeated hard sessions
- •Peak training intake: ~15–25% from carbs (often 200–300g depending on workload)
- •Flexibility goal: fat-adapted enough to run long without fuel, but able to ‘hit the gas’
- 27:55 – 32:56
Measuring ketosis in real life: blood meters, breath devices, timing carbs, and exogenous ketones
They get into practical monitoring—blood ketone meters, breath tools, and what it means to drift in and out of ketosis. Zach also shares a ketone-ester test that spiked his ketones dramatically, raising questions about performance use and fueling math.
- •Ketone tracking tools: blood ketones vs breath devices and calibration
- •How meal timing and “carb boluses” affect return to ketosis
- •Exogenous ketone experiment: rapid jump from ~1.0 to ~3.7 mmol
- •Key uncertainty: ketones are fuel—how do you add them without overloading digestion?
- 32:56 – 39:37
Fueling a 100-miler: digestion limits, heat, calories per hour, and why he still uses carbs in-race
Zach explains the central constraint of ultra fueling: your gut’s ability to process calories while blood is needed for muscles and cooling. His fat-adaptation allows lower hourly calories, and he prefers to ‘trickle’ carbs to preserve glycogen without GI blowups.
- •Digestion competes with cooling/muscle blood flow—heat amplifies vomiting risk
- •Typical target: ~100–200 calories/hour now vs 300–500/hour on high-carb
- •Using drink mix for steady intake + hydration (Fuel 5 example)
- •Why carbs (not fats) during races: body fat stores are ample; glycogen is the limiting reservoir
- 39:37 – 44:44
Training environment and life logistics: Phoenix heat prep, hydration vests, sponsors, and engagement
Joe and Zach pivot to where Zach lives and why—Phoenix provides heat acclimation and access to both trails and flat roads. Zach also explains how sponsor responsibilities (Altra) and his fiancée’s career influenced the move.
- •Phoenix as a strategic base for Western States heat and canyon conditions
- •Hydration packs evolving: bladders, front bottles, better fit and ergonomics
- •Balancing training volume with sponsor work (events, group runs, product work)
- •Personal context: engagement and choosing a mutually beneficial city
- 44:44 – 53:00
Minimalist and zero-drop footwear in ultras: Altra, barefoot racers, and strengthening the foot
They dig into shoes, minimalist running, and how some athletes even race barefoot or in sandals. Zach explains the spectrum from heavily cushioned shoes to barefoot, and why transition time matters to avoid injury while building foot strength.
- •Reports of runners doing ultras in Vibram FiveFingers and even barefoot
- •Altra Vanish and design priorities: firmness, responsiveness, toe box shape
- •Shoes as a ‘cast’ for the foot—muscles weaken without gradual adaptation
- •Practical tradeoffs: rocky trails require more protection and traction than track/road
- 53:00 – 58:18
What goes wrong in 100 miles: bonking, cramping, and Zach’s 100-mile record performance
Zach describes common failure modes in ultras and why fat-adaptation reduces bonking risk. Joe reacts to Zach’s astonishing 100-mile track performance, highlighting the pace and efficiency required.
- •Bonking explained: glycogen depletion + insufficient fat oxidation
- •Fat-adapted strategy reduces dependence on constant high fueling
- •Zach’s 100-mile mark: 11:40:55 on a track, ~7-minute miles for ~12 hours
- •Race efficiency details: minimal stops (including humor about bathroom strategies)
- 58:18 – 1:03:04
Carnivore, vegan, and individual variability: performance vs ideology and nutrient bioavailability
The conversation broadens into diet ideology versus individual response, using carnivore and vegan examples. Joe and Zach emphasize that some people thrive on opposite extremes, and discuss nutrient density in organ meats alongside ethical concerns about factory farming.
- •Carnivore examples (Peterson family) and autoimmune symptom control anecdotes
- •A ‘start from safe foods’ elimination approach for severe sensitivity cases
- •Factory farming ethics vs the biological question of meat’s health impact
- •Organ meats (especially liver) as highly bioavailable micronutrient sources
- 1:03:04 – 1:05:48
Ultra’s outliers: Courtney Dauwalter’s dominance, mindset, and the women vs men performance debate
Joe and Zach discuss Courtney Dauwalter as a rare outlier—diet quirks, extreme resilience, and huge winning margins. They then explore how and when women can contend for overall wins in ultras, including pacing discipline and race-day variables like heat.
- •Courtney’s ‘freak’ status: mental toughness and durability under chaos
- •Examples of extreme adversity: vision issues, falls, still winning
- •Women’s overall wins in ultras: possible but not guaranteed; context-dependent
- •Women often pace more conservatively; men more likely to blow up early
- 1:05:48 – 1:11:55
Mountain specialists and the world stage: Kilian Jornet, UTMB, Western States elevation, and course profiles
Zach highlights how different ultra formats can be—flat track records vs mountainous ridge-line races. Kilian Jornet becomes the example of a generational mountain runner, and they compare the competitive benchmarks of Western States and UTMB.
- •Kilian Jornet as the top mountain runner archetype (and also a pro skier)
- •Technical terrain risk and competence: ridge running and exposure
- •Western States profile (net downhill) still massive climbing/descending
- •UTMB and Western States as talent barometers for global competition
- 1:11:55 – 1:15:36
How to pace an ultra: perceived effort, heart-rate limits, cardiac drift, and training specificity
Zach explains why perceived exertion becomes the anchor in very long events, with heart rate serving as a training tool more than a race governor. They reference Rich Roll’s heart-rate strategy and discuss why long-duration physiology makes HR less reliable.
- •Perceived effort as the most robust pacing compass over many hours
- •Heart rate in training vs race-day complications (dehydration, cardiac drift)
- •The need to map ‘numbers’ to internal sensations for decision-making
- •Acknowledging multiple successful fueling/pacing approaches across athletes
- 1:15:36 – 1:27:58
CBD, cannabis, doping controls, and legal performance aids: testing, EPO fears, and caffeine strategy
They close by discussing CBD and marijuana use in the ultra community, plus what anti-doping looks like in a growing sport. Zach describes limited testing, likely forms of cheating, and how caffeine and even soda can be strategically used without wrecking the gut.
- •CBD use mostly for sleep/inflammation; marijuana prohibited above thresholds
- •USADA-style protocols at major races; testing expanding but still limited
- •Speculation on likely doping methods (peptides vs expensive blood protocols)
- •Caffeine as a legal enhancer; practical fueling anecdotes (e.g., Mountain Dew experiment)
