Joe Rogan Experience #1162 - Valentine Thomas

Joe Rogan 0:04 Three, two, one. Boom. You gotta appreciate a person who shows up with not just food, but booze.

Valentine Thomas 0:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:13 You showed up, you brought whiskey and fish. That's very impressive.

Valentine Thomas 0:19 That's what m- it's exactly what my mommy taught me.

Joe Rogan 0:22 Your mother taught you to bring food and booze everywhere? (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 0:23 Exactly. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:25 Well, you got a good mom. But, eh, so ex- your name is... You, you would introduce yourself as Valentine, but your mom calls you Valentin?

Valentine Thomas 0:36 It's... Well, I introduce myself to English-speaking people, I say I'm Valentine.

Joe Rogan 0:41 Right.

Valentine Thomas 0:41 But then, uh, when I speak to somebody that speaks French, I say Valentine.

Joe Rogan 0:46 Valentin.

Valentine Thomas 0:47 Valentin.

Joe Rogan 0:47 Oh, okay. 'Cause you're from Montreal.

Valentine Thomas 0:49 Yes.

Joe Rogan 0:49 Right.

Valentine Thomas 0:49 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 0:50 Okay. Um, so I found out about you online and, uh, I've, I've read your story, and it's a very interesting story, because you, you were a lawyer, right?

Valentine Thomas 1:00 Yes. I used to be a lawyer. I, I did my law degree in Montreal and then I did my, uh, master in law t- before moving to London.

Joe Rogan 1:09 And now you are a spear phisher.

Valentine Thomas 1:12 Yes, full time.

Joe Rogan 1:13 That's kind of crazy.

Valentine Thomas 1:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:14 That's a, that's an interesting transition. And I, I'm fascinated by spear phishing. It seems like a lot of fun. It l- it seems very exciting and dangerous and risky. But how did you go from being a lawyer... And that's a big jump. I mean, you gotta, you had to pay for an education. You had to... Well, in Canada, do you have to pay for that? How's that work?

Valentine Thomas 1:34 Um, it, it's kinda cheap compared to the US definitely.

Joe Rogan 1:37 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 1:37 It's about something maybe like $3,000, $4,000 a year. So, compared to the US it's, it's almost free, I guess.

Joe Rogan 1:44 Oh, that's not bad. 3, 4,000 a year. But still, that's 3, 4,000 a year for many years that you decided, "Yeah, I'd just rather..."

Valentine Thomas 1:52 True. My mom just definitely didn't get a good, uh, return on investment (laughs) on that one.

Joe Rogan 1:56 (laughs) Now, how do they feel about you doing this?

Valentine Thomas 1:59 Um, she still sends me university applications time to time being like, "Hey, why don't you study dif- something different or something." And I'm like, "No, I'm not having a midlife crisis." (laughs) I just don't like what I was doing, so I just picked something else. Oh, by the way, I'm gonna have to apologize for my English.

Joe Rogan 2:18 Seems perfect.

Valentine Thomas 2:19 I'm from Montreal, so French is my first language. There's something ............................

Joe Rogan 2:21 Well, listen, you're way better-

Valentine Thomas 2:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:23 ... than Georges St-Pierre. He was here a couple-

Valentine Thomas 2:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:24 ... weeks ago and Georges is more hard to understand and he was fine. So.

Valentine Thomas 2:28 Yeah, I'm not, I'm not gonna speak like this and, uh-

Joe Rogan 2:30 (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 2:30 ... and I'm gonna try to make an effort. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:33 (laughs) Listen, I'm impressed with anybody who can speak more than one language.

Valentine Thomas 2:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 2:36 I was just in Thailand. It's just amazing that they speak English so perfectly, you know, and then, you know, their, their language is so oddly different than ours. Um, you decided when to do this? Like, how, how deep into your, your law career were you?

Valentine Thomas 2:51 It was about... I actually made a career switch when I moved to London in 2010. So I started working in finance, so I worked for hedge funds and I basically decided on, on quitting law. I didn't like the part of law where I was stuck in one place. So, you know, when you st- when you study law, let's say, in Canada, then you... Even in Canada it's even worse because I was studying in Quebec, which is civil law, and then I was stuck in Quebec for the rest of my life and I just got like, ugh, that's not gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 3:19 So meaning that, okay, so like, if you pass the bar in California, you would also have to pass the bar in New York if you wanted to work in New York?

Valentine Thomas 3:26 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 3:26 Okay. Hmm.

Valentine Thomas 3:27 So it's a, it's a long process.

Joe Rogan 3:29 So it's kind of... That's different than... Is that the same with, like, if you were a doctor would that be the case?

Valentine Thomas 3:33 Um, country wise, I would say. State wise, I couldn't know.

Joe Rogan 3:37 But state wise, it is for law.

Valentine Thomas 3:39 Yes, it is.

Joe Rogan 3:40 So for you, you would have got stuck in Quebec, and it, the... Quebec is a very interesting place because it kind of doesn't want to be a part of Canada.

Valentine Thomas 3:47 True. We're very different in Canada, but my biggest problem with, with Quebec is definitely not the culture or anything like that, it's the fact that it's a eight-month-long winter.

Joe Rogan 3:56 It's rough.

Valentine Thomas 3:58 I, I'm, I'm, I'm not doing it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:59 But the people are amazing.

Valentine Thomas 4:01 It is. It's a very European city actually. In, in Canada it's, it's peop- people are very about food, about sitting outside, about it's-

Joe Rogan 4:08 Yeah. Shout out to my friends David and Fred from Joe Beef in Montreal, one of the best restaurants in the world. You ever eat there?

Valentine Thomas 4:15 Yes.

Joe Rogan 4:15 You ever... Woo!

Valentine Thomas 4:16 That's amazing.

Joe Rogan 4:16 How good is that place?

Valentine Thomas 4:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:17 Woo!

Valentine Thomas 4:18 That's pretty good.

Joe Rogan 4:19 That's a jammin' place. Um, so I'm sorry. So you decided you didn't wanna be stuck.

Valentine Thomas 4:25 Yeah, pretty much. I kind of got like claustrophobic of being like, "Oh, this is going to be the next 40 years of my life."

Joe Rogan 4:31 How'd you get into spear fishing?

Valentine Thomas 4:33 Um, very weird story. (laughs) I was... I got into spear fishing when I was living in London, which still doesn't make much sense.

Joe Rogan 4:43 Right.

Valentine Thomas 4:43 And then I, I, I met, I met this guy and he was like, "Oh, you have to try spear fishing. You would be so good at it." And he asked me to go do a course in Egypt for free diving. So I said, "Uh, all right, I'm gonna go." I was like, "Ugh."

Joe Rogan 4:55 Egypt?

Valentine Thomas 4:55 Yeah, Egypt. It's very big for free diving, Egypt.

Joe Rogan 4:58 Really?

Valentine Thomas 4:58 The sea is like very clear and deep and the water is beautiful and it's calm very often. You can swim from shore and you have very great depth, so it's, it's really nice for that. But, so, uh, I did my course. I went there literally kicking and screaming. I didn't want to go. When I was, um, 14 years old, I almost drowned on the side of France with my parents. Refused to swim in the ocean for about 10 years after that. I, I... Like, if I couldn't see the bottom, I wasn't, not even interested in going near the water. And then

Valentine Thomas 5:29 I was like, "All right, I'm gonna try this thing," and I go there and I'm like, "Oh, okay, it's not too bad. No, it's not that bad." I was like, "It's actually really cool." So he said, "Okay, well, now that you know how to free dive, in three months we're going to this very big spear fishing trip on Ascension Island." Ascension Island is literally one of the biggest, most elite spear fishing destination in the world. You go hunt for big fish.

Joe Rogan 5:53 Where is this?

Valentine Thomas 5:53 It's right in the middle of the Atlantic. It's right between Brazil and Africa. It's a military island divided between, uh, the US and the UK.

Joe Rogan 6:00 Oh, wow. I've never heard of it before. Do people live on it?

Valentine Thomas 6:03 Yes, they do. They have locals that-

Joe Rogan 6:06 ... what language do they speak?

Valentine Thomas 6:07 English.

Joe Rogan 6:08 Really?

Valentine Thomas 6:08 Yeah. It's- it's a very, very odd place, but it's very pretty.

Joe Rogan 6:11 And it's the, one of the b- there it is. Jamie nailed it. (clicks tongue) Got it up there. How, what's the Google Maps tell us? How long does it take to get there? (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 6:18 The finishing of the middle of nowhere. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:20 That's crazy, in the middle of nowhere.

Valentine Thomas 6:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:22 But wow, it's between Africa and Brazil. That's fucking nuts.

Valentine Thomas 6:25 And to get there, we had to go to the military base in the- in the UK, which is, like, about an hour and a half away from London, and we have to take a royal air force flight there. That's the only way to get there. There's no commercial flights.

Joe Rogan 6:38 Really?

Valentine Thomas 6:39 It's a stopover on the way from the military base in the UK to the Falklands.

Joe Rogan 6:43 So how does a civilian get a ride on a military flight?

Valentine Thomas 6:47 They allow about five civilians per flight.

Joe Rogan 6:51 Oh, wow. So how do you book it?

Valentine Thomas 6:54 Uh...

Joe Rogan 6:54 Do you do it through a travel agent or something?

Valentine Thomas 6:57 I- I- I didn't do the booking myself, but I think it's, like, through- through the airline or something.

Joe Rogan 7:02 Wow.

Valentine Thomas 7:03 It was a weird experience.

Joe Rogan 7:04 How odd.

Valentine Thomas 7:04 I was imagining, like, when I was, like, being strapped down and then facing the other side or ... but no, it's actually a commercial flight.

Joe Rogan 7:10 Oh, okay.

Valentine Thomas 7:10 It's just bigger-

Joe Rogan 7:11 So it wasn't like-

Valentine Thomas 7:12 ... because it's meant for bigger guys. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:13 ... like the movie Predator?

Valentine Thomas 7:14 No.

Joe Rogan 7:15 (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 7:15 I wasn't really expecting that, but ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:17 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 7:17 I thought I'd get doors open in the back and then I was, like, run out and, you know.

Joe Rogan 7:20 'Cause I have some friends who have done some sh- gigs overseas, um, and they have had to fly in those kind of planes.

Valentine Thomas 7:27 That sounds pretty cool.

Joe Rogan 7:27 Yeah, I guess, until someone shoots at you.

Valentine Thomas 7:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 7:32 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 7:32 That- that would make it a bad day.

Joe Rogan 7:34 Yeah, that would- that would change things.

Valentine Thomas 7:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:35 So when you were free diving before you went to this elite spearfishing destination, how long could you hold your breath?

Valentine Thomas 7:42 When I started?

Joe Rogan 7:43 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 7:44 Just zero, probably like 15, 20 seconds, and-

Joe Rogan 7:48 So you were going there-

Valentine Thomas 7:49 ... I couldn't do shit.

Joe Rogan 7:49 ... with 15, 20 seconds worth of breath?

Valentine Thomas 7:51 I was pretty bad.

Joe Rogan 7:52 Whoa.

Valentine Thomas 7:52 I just did my deepest dive on my way there was something like 15 meters. Oh shit, I'm Canadian. Uh ...

Joe Rogan 7:59 No, that's okay. It's close enough, 2 yard. We understand what that is.

Valentine Thomas 8:01 45 meters?

Joe Rogan 8:03 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 8:03 Uh, 45 feet?

Joe Rogan 8:04 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 8:04 So, it was something like that. It wasn't that great, and I actually remember my first time I went spearfishing, I was in a boat and the water was really bad. It was rocky. You know when the sea is, like, black, black because it's raining and ...

Joe Rogan 8:15 Uh-huh.

Valentine Thomas 8:16 So I was in the back of the boat. I was shaking. I was holding my- my little gun, and I was like, "What the fuck am I doing here?" I'm like, "Why am I watching TV right now?" (laughs) Like, "I don't wanna be here. I don't wanna be here. I don't wanna be here." And then my friend was like, "Come on. Stop being a freaking pussy. Just jump in the boat. Just, um, jump in the water and come." I'm like, "Uh," so I was like, "Okay." (exhales) I take a deep breath. I jump in, and then the water that was so dark and so horrible and choppy just became super clear, and there was fish everywhere. And I was like, "Wow, this is actually pretty freaking cool."

Joe Rogan 8:47 And you're doing this, again, free diving, no tanks?

Valentine Thomas 8:49 Free diving, no, no tanks. So I take my first drops. I'm a little bit clumsy because I have my gun, and I'm like, "Uh, I don't really know how to- how to dive with that." And then I took a shot at my first fish, and I stoned it, and my friend was like, "Oh yeah, that's great."

Joe Rogan 9:02 You stoned it meaning you killed it?

Valentine Thomas 9:03 I killed it on the first shot.

Joe Rogan 9:04 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 9:05 Been like-

Joe Rogan 9:05 And that's- that's hunting terms too.

Valentine Thomas 9:07 (laughs) Oh, is it?

Joe Rogan 9:07 It's funny you said stoned it.

Valentine Thomas 9:10 And yeah, and then I- my friend was like, "Well, you're not done, you know. You have to grab, like, the fish. You have to drag it all the way to the boat." And I was like, "All right." I grab the fish. I have waves in my face, and then I- I get ... It was quite a big fish. It was a big-

Joe Rogan 9:22 What kind of-

Valentine Thomas 9:22 It was a good, um ...

Joe Rogan 9:23 ... fish was it?

Valentine Thomas 9:24 It was a blackjack, which is not that great to eat. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:28 Blackjack?

Valentine Thomas 9:28 Yeah. Probably something that-

Joe Rogan 9:31 Is that what the-

Valentine Thomas 9:31 ... not many people would eat.

Joe Rogan 9:33 What does that look like? Why- why wouldn't they eat it?

Valentine Thomas 9:34 It's a- it- it's edible. It's not bad. It's just not one of ... it's not a very flaky fish, I would say. It's a little tough. The meat is a little tough.

Joe Rogan 9:43 Oh, so it's, uh, just too dense or something? Too-

Valentine Thomas 9:46 Yeah, kind of. It's- they're very strong fish, so ...

Joe Rogan 9:49 Whoa. That's a cool looking fish. That's what it looks like?

Valentine Thomas 9:53 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:54 Oh, okay.

Valentine Thomas 9:55 Yeah, it looks-

Joe Rogan 9:55 That's a good first fish to down.

Valentine Thomas 9:57 ... like that.

Joe Rogan 9:57 On your Instagram-

Valentine Thomas 9:57 It was pretty big too. He was about like- like 25 pound.

Joe Rogan 10:02 Oh, wow.

Valentine Thomas 10:02 So he was-

Joe Rogan 10:02 Your Instagram is filled with this stuff, which is, um, I g- I guess one of the ways that I found you. I- it's hard to remember how I find people online. But your Instagram is filled with you, with all these cool fucking fish, and all these, uh ... I mean, you look like you're living a life of adventure. This is one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you about it. Is that a lionfish you killed?

Valentine Thomas 10:22 Yes, that's a lionfish.

Joe Rogan 10:23 Can you eat those?

Valentine Thomas 10:24 They taste ... They're probably one of the best tast- tasting fish ever that exists out there.

Joe Rogan 10:28 Really?

Valentine Thomas 10:28 They're fantastic.

Joe Rogan 10:30 Do you ever get them on a ... Are they commercially available? Do they- Or is it something you have to-

Valentine Thomas 10:33 In Florida, yeah, you can find them at Publix-

Joe Rogan 10:35 Really?

Valentine Thomas 10:35 ... in Florida.

Joe Rogan 10:36 Oh, really?

Valentine Thomas 10:37 Which is- which I was very surprised about. You just have to be really careful when you harvest them, of course, because if you touch the spine, it's- it hurts.

Joe Rogan 10:43 Is it poisonous?

Valentine Thomas 10:44 Yeah, very poisonous.

Joe Rogan 10:46 But it's just painful? It's not deadly?

Valentine Thomas 10:49 No, you can get into a-

Joe Rogan 10:50 Bloodstream?

Valentine Thomas 10:51 ... epileptic shock.

Joe Rogan 10:52 Oh. Well, that's not fun.

Valentine Thomas 10:53 So you can- you can ... That can happen-

Joe Rogan 10:55 What was it-

Valentine Thomas 10:56 ... but normally you just have ... Like, if somebody was ... Somebody told me it's like you had a hammer in your head repeatedly.

Joe Rogan 11:02 Oh.

Valentine Thomas 11:02 It's like a throbbing pain for about a day and a half.

Joe Rogan 11:05 Whoa, so like a bullet ant almost.

Valentine Thomas 11:07 It's a pain. It's not- it's- it's ...

Joe Rogan 11:09 Legit.

Valentine Thomas 11:09 You really try to avoid it at all costs. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:11 Oh. So what would you compare the meat to?

Valentine Thomas 11:16 Hawkfish.

Joe Rogan 11:17 Oh, I don't know what that tastes like.

Valentine Thomas 11:19 So ... Or maybe a very tiny Chilean sea bass maybe?

Joe Rogan 11:24 Oh, okay.

Valentine Thomas 11:25 That type of, like, oily, flaky ...

Joe Rogan 11:28 Did you know that Chil- did we talk about this on the podcast? Chilean sea bass is not really a bass. It's a cod.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 11:34 Maybe.

Joe Rogan 11:35 It's horse shit.

Valentine Thomas 11:35 It's also endangered, but it's so good.

Joe Rogan 11:38 Is it endangered? How is it on every menu if it's endangered?

Valentine Thomas 11:42 Yep. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 11:42 People are assholes. Um, so you- you go to this one destination. You, uh, you shoot this blackjack. Were you hooked immediately?

Valentine Thomas 11:53 Yes.

Joe Rogan 11:54 Really?

Valentine Thomas 11:54 It was the ... Not about the spearfishing part actually. I was still traumatized in the water. I still had panics attacks when I was in the water. And, um, but I fell in love the second I arrived to shore and we barbecued a fish on the beach.

Joe Rogan 12:09 Mmm.

Valentine Thomas 12:10 And I was like, "Okay, this is- this is for me."

Joe Rogan 12:13 That's the same exact thing that happened to me when I went deer hunting. When we- me and my friend Bryan Callen and Steve Rinella and Dan Doty were cooking this deer meat by a fire...And I was like, "This is the greatest thing ever." Th- the meat was so fresh, 'cause it was like from an animal that was, you know, literally killed hours ago. And then we're eating by, by the fire. I was like, "This is ... I'm gonna do this forever. This is the greatest thing ever."

Valentine Thomas 12:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:38 It's primal, right?

Valentine Thomas 12:39 Yeah, pretty much. It is, it's y- y- you feel, you feel ... What I always tell people is that, you know, when you live in a big city, like when I've never experienced that before, I've never felt that I was part of the ecosystem whatsoever.

Joe Rogan 12:54 Right.

Valentine Thomas 12:54 And then all of a sudden I've been putting myself in the water when I'm surrounded by sharks or big fish, r- re- different things, and I'm like, "Wow, we're actually not on top of the food chain at all." There's a lot of stuff above us that can kill us and it's, it's, it's scary and it's humbling. And I think as a person you have to experience that. You have to, you have to put yourself out of your comfort zone to understand that you need to respect what's around you.

Joe Rogan 13:21 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 13:21 You cannot tell me 10 years ago, "Oh, you have to eat that fish because it's bad for the environment." I'd be like, "Yeah, yeah, sure buddy."

Joe Rogan 13:27 Right.

Valentine Thomas 13:27 And then you see in a plate and you're like, "Ooh, that looks good and it's fine and this." But then when you're in the water and you see what's going on and you see that a spot you've been diving for five years all of a sudden is empty, then it makes you understand that, you know, we actually have a very strong impact. And it's, it's our job to, to, to understand and, and, and respect it. We're, we're, we're it, we're the ecosystem. We're just the one that we're the smartest one, sometimes. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 13:53 We're the only ones that are consciously aware of our actions and the repercussions-

Valentine Thomas 13:57 Yes.

Joe Rogan 13:58 ... of our actions. What ... When, when you're, uh, you know, first experiencing this, your first time, e- and this feeling of connectedness and freedom and just b- being a part of the ecosystem, did you imagine that somehow or another this could be your life and your job?

Valentine Thomas 14:17 Not at all. I've, I've, I've, I've never been hiking. I'm not a big fan of ... I've never used to be a big fan of the outdoors. I'm, I've, I've, I don't go to the gym. (laughs) I don't exercise.

Joe Rogan 14:27 You don't go to the gym?

Valentine Thomas 14:28 No. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:29 No?

Valentine Thomas 14:29 I basically don't do anything. And then all of a sudden I was living in London, in a nice apartment with two dogs and a nice car, and then all of a sudden I was in freaking Africa camping in a bush catching, catching my own food and sharing with villagers that had nothing to eat. And I was like, "Okay, wow, this is-"

Joe Rogan 14:45 How did that happen? Like how did you go from this one trip?

Valentine Thomas 14:49 Um, I got invited to film a documentary in food sourcing and I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna try it." And I fell in love with it. And the second I went back to London, I remember sitting at my desk and being like, "There's no way I can do that."

Joe Rogan 15:02 Wow.

Valentine Thomas 15:02 "There's no way I can keep doing that for the rest of my life." And everybody thought I was completely crazy. I sold everything. I, I, and I just left. I moved away and I had s- I have like maybe two suitcases of stuff for the past three years, and ...

Joe Rogan 15:19 I was reading somewhere where they were going to do an interview on you and they decided not to. They were gonna feature you in something but they decided not to because of concerns for the depletion of fish in the ocean. And I said, "That is one of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard." Because the, the impact of someone like you, what you're doing y- for your own personal consumption, taking a fish a day or whatever you're getting, for your own personal consumption, is negligible in comparison to all these people that are probably writing these articles that are going to buy sushi from commercial fishermen. They're, they're, they're buying fish from the store that's wrapped in Saran wrap. They're, th- they're, they're completely out of touch.

Valentine Thomas 16:01 Yeah, I mean, it's-

Joe Rogan 16:01 I mean, you're in touch. You're as in touch as you can get. But to think that somehow or another you're doing something evil because you take photos of it and put it on your Instagram, who was that one ... You had a, this amazing photo from a couple days ago with you with this, this big fish. It was so fresh and you, you guys were eating pieces of it. You had cut a chunk of it out of the, out of its tail.

Valentine Thomas 16:25 Yes, that was in Thailand. It was-

Joe Rogan 16:26 Yeah, Phuket?

Valentine Thomas 16:27 It was, yeah, uh, near Phuket actually, yeah. We- we just went with this friend of ours, with his family, and we just went out for the day. And we went spear fishing with my friend. We caught a fish and, and the guy was super happy. He caught it right on the spot and all the kids were just picking on it and it was ... They were so excited the second they came-

Joe Rogan 16:43 Yeah, there it is right there.

Valentine Thomas 16:43 The second they came, that the boat arrived back to the island they just went and grabbed the fish and they were trying to take pictures. It was super cute.

Joe Rogan 16:50 What, what was the argument for not ... What was the piece that they were trying to put you in where they pulled you out of it? What was that about?

Valentine Thomas 16:56 Ugh, that story is, it's still, it's still getting me pretty angry. (laughs) So basically we're ... I was speaking at a woman empowerment conference in New York last May. And then when I was actually in Thailand, the, the, the woman that is organizing it calls me and she's like, "Oh, look, Valentine, like, I need to talk to you about something and it's, you know, it's a little touchy." I'm like, "What?" She's like, "Well, one of our sponsors said that if you speak at a conference they're gonna withdraw their participation in the conference."

Joe Rogan 17:27 What was the sponsor?

Valentine Thomas 17:29 Um, The Wall Street Journal. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:30 The Wall Street Journal?

Valentine Thomas 17:32 And I'm like-

Joe Rogan 17:33 Oh my God.

Valentine Thomas 17:34 ... "What?" And she said, "Yeah, they feel like that your lifestyle isn't aligned with ocean preservation and that's ..." And she said, some ... She didn't say it directly, but she said, "And you know me. I, I don't mind that you have pictures in a bathing suit." I'm like, "What do you mean picture in my bathing suit? Sorry my burkini was not clean. (laughs) Like what do you want from me? I'm at a beach, what am I supposed to wear?"

Joe Rogan 17:59 Well, you're also swimming. Like- (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 18:01 I'm swimming.

Joe Rogan 18:02 You're not wearing a bathing suit. You mean, it's not like you're in your high heels, you know, being an Insta model, you're wearing a bathing suit. And there's nothing wrong with that either, but, uh, you're wearing a bathing suit because you're actually in the water.

Valentine Thomas 18:14 I- exactly. I'm not in Mykonos next to a freaking pool, I'm in, I'm in, I'm in Africa-

Joe Rogan 18:19 No, no, no.

Valentine Thomas 18:19 ... on a beach when it's like 110 degrees. What am I supposed to wear? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:22 Yeah, not on a yacht with Dan Bilzerian.

Valentine Thomas 18:23 (laughs) Exactly.

Joe Rogan 18:25 (laughs) ... respect. (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 18:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:28 So, so, uh, uh, I mean, wh- what did you say to them? And what ... that's f- Wall Street Journal, that is so crazy. I, uh, you know, and I get it from their perspective, it's a bullshit argument, but from their perspective, it's just about optics. It's about how it looks. That's all it is. And if they go there, and people love to get outraged about something, if they go there and then they go to your Instagram and they find pictures of you with fish, they're like, "Oh, this girl's cleaning out the ocean all by herself. She's killing all the fish."

Valentine Thomas 18:57 (laughs) Yeah, I'm very good. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:58 You mu- you have to be really good.

Valentine Thomas 19:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:00 I mean, have you ever seen a commercial fishing boat, what they do?

Valentine Thomas 19:03 Yes.

Joe Rogan 19:03 Yeah. Most people haven't. Um, Jamie, see if you could pull off the, the horrific effects of commercial net fishing, because, uh, if you find a video, we can watch a, a clip of the video. It's crazy. When you see the sheer volume of fish that they pull out of the ocean, and when you realize there's countless numbers of these boats, and essentially, f- pretty much unregulated, and no one's watching them, and they're doing it all over the world. I mean, there's areas where you're not allowed to fish. But overall, it's nothing like the way we treat wild mammals or wild birds. The way we treat wild mammals, especially in North America, is they're very closely monitored, their numbers, their populations. We, we make sure that, uh, unless it's an invasive species like wild pigs, like here we go, this is, this is awful. They take this gigantic net, they circle all these fish, and then when they're pulling them in, you get to see the sheer volume. See, as they get close.

Valentine Thomas 20:08 But that's, that's, that's one of the smoother way to commercial fish.

Joe Rogan 20:12 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 20:13 France is really big on, on trawlers, and it's two kilometers wide net that is actually, it's, it's scraping the bottom.

Joe Rogan 20:22 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 20:22 Completely destroying everything.

Joe Rogan 20:23 Right. Destroying the coral. This is, this is-

Valentine Thomas 20:24 And there's electric shocks on each side.

Joe Rogan 20:26 This is actually, uh, a fairly mild one. And it looks like they're getting these little tiny fish. But, I mean, you could find it, folks, if you wanted to go and Google it online. Um, but that is the issue too, right, that these, these nets th- go all the way to the bottom, and they destroy anything that they touch. Like, the whole, the, the bottom of the ocean just gets dragged and all the coral gets destroyed.

Valentine Thomas 20:50 It's just extremely destructive, but it's what, what-

Joe Rogan 20:53 That's how you get sushi.

Valentine Thomas 20:54 There's so much ... the fish industry, it's not even necessarily how you get sushi. It's how you get sushi so damn cheap.

Joe Rogan 21:01 Right.

Valentine Thomas 21:02 But it's, it's, by the way, if we keep doing that, there's literally gonna be no fish very, very, very soon. But then, how do you explain that in Canada you're not allowed to spearfish?

Joe Rogan 21:12 What?

Valentine Thomas 21:13 And you have to release most of the fish you, you brought in rail. There's a lot of stories-

Joe Rogan 21:17 You have to release most of the fish you brought in real?

Valentine Thomas 21:19 Yeah, to-

Joe Rogan 21:20 Like, what-

Valentine Thomas 21:20 ... in Canada. Like, uh, like, the striper, the striped bass. In, in-

Joe Rogan 21:24 How many, how many can you get a day? Striped bass, like one a day or something like that?

Valentine Thomas 21:27 One a day. Spearfishing, one a day. And, and the US side. Canada, you're not even gonna touch anything, you're not-

Joe Rogan 21:33 Why can't you spearfish in Canada?

Valentine Thomas 21:35 Because the Anglers Association in Canada thinks that we're the evils, basically.

Joe Rogan 21:42 That you're evil. Why? 'Cause you can actually-

Valentine Thomas 21:44 Because-

Joe Rogan 21:45 ... see what you're catching?

Valentine Thomas 21:46 Yeah. So basically, w- we're the cheaters because-

Joe Rogan 21:48 Ah.

Valentine Thomas 21:48 ... we can see the fish. And I'm like-

Joe Rogan 21:50 (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 21:51 ... "How can you be in your camping chairs on your boat drinking beers all day telling me that I'm the cheater when I'm working my ass off (laughs) diving it, like, 60 feet to catch my fish, to bring it back, and I risked my life, I risk my life drowning, I risk my life with sharks, I risk my life with all sorts of things that can happen, and you're telling me, drinking your Budweiser in your freaking camping chair, that I'm the cheater?" I'm like, "I'm sorry, but no." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:16 Well, people always wanna think that everybody else is doing it wrong.

Valentine Thomas 22:20 True.

Joe Rogan 22:20 You know? Vegans wanna think people that eat meat are doing it wrong. People that eat meat wanna think vegans are doing it wrong. People who fish off a boat wanna think that people who spearfish are doing it wrong. You think they're probably doing it wrong. (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 22:34 (laughs) No, I, I have nothing against catching your own food as long as you, you know, respectful with, with the way you do it.

Joe Rogan 22:39 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 22:39 But there was a big scandal in Florida for the past years with the red snapper by example, and it was about, um, like, recurtional, recreational fishing, you're allowed a certain amount of, of red snapper, and then the season closes. And then when the season closes, as an indi- individual, my license to fish is gone, and then they give it away to the commercial fishermen. And I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, wait. So basically, you're telling me that I'm not allowed to catch that fish for a few months because the population is too bad, but then you're giving my quota to the commercial boats that are catching hundreds a day?" They're like, "Yeah."

Joe Rogan 23:23 That doesn't make any sense.

Valentine Thomas 23:24 (laughs) No, it, it doesn't, and-

Joe Rogan 23:25 But most people are not gonna spearfish. Most people are gonna fish, so they don't ... you guys don't have a voice, right? In terms of, like, representative voice in te- uh, comes to creating these laws and establishing these, these rules. There's not that many of you, right?

Valentine Thomas 23:42 Oh, we're ... And, and the food chain, we're the, we're the plankton.

Joe Rogan 23:45 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 23:45 It's, you know, you had a commercial fishing with very big, uh, lobbyists and a lot of money, and then you have the anglers which is a little bit ... it's still not super bad because they still have big boats company and equipment.

Joe Rogan 23:56 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 23:56 It's still like a, a market which is good enough.

Joe Rogan 23:59 Right.

Valentine Thomas 23:59 And then you have the spearfishermen.

Joe Rogan 24:01 Right.

Valentine Thomas 24:01 And spearfishermen is, we're not a lot in the world. I, I couldn't even tell you how many, but we're not, we're not a million, that's for freaking sure.

Joe Rogan 24:09 It's probably less spearfishermen than there are bowhunters.

Valentine Thomas 24:14 That's highly possible.

Joe Rogan 24:15 Yeah, I would, I would imagine, 'cause it seems more dangerous and difficult than bowhunting. It seems like the next level. It seems like one of the most difficult things you could do if you wanna get your food.

Valentine Thomas 24:27 It's-

Joe Rogan 24:28 'Cause you're going into an alien environment and you're holding your breath.

Valentine Thomas 24:31 ... true. But actually, the human body... That's the main argument I get from people. They tell me, "Oh, I could never do it." But every, the human body is actually made to do this. So there's a thing called the mammalian dive reflex, and this is very present in aquatic mammals such as like, like, dolphins or seals and things like that. And the human have it in a very, in a way, weaker way, but we, we still have it. And so when you immerse you, you, your face under water, your heartbeat is automatically gonna slow down, especially if the water is, is, is colder. So your, your body's act- is getting prepared to hold its breath to catch food. And that's, that's in your DNA.

Joe Rogan 25:15 Is it preparing to catch food, or is it just preparing to survive?

Valentine Thomas 25:19 To hold your breath-

Joe Rogan 25:20 Something.

Valentine Thomas 25:20 ... under water.

Joe Rogan 25:21 Right.

Valentine Thomas 25:21 Which-

Joe Rogan 25:21 For some reason.

Valentine Thomas 25:22 I mean, I, I guess, I guess that was a very successive thing to say, because it's, I'm, I'm seeing catch food, but I just don't see why-

Joe Rogan 25:28 Are you aware-

Valentine Thomas 25:29 ... a human being genetically would have to go under water ............................

Joe Rogan 25:31 Are you aware of the aquatic ape theory?

Valentine Thomas 25:34 Nope.

Joe Rogan 25:35 Um, it's a very controversial theory, but the theory is that we evolved, um, somehow or another, like, y- you know, dolphins apparently were at one point in time a land animal. Is that true? Is that right?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 25:50 Say again?

Joe Rogan 25:51 Were dolphins a land animal at one point in time?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 25:53 Uh....

Joe Rogan 25:54 I don't know if that's true.

Valentine Thomas 25:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:56 I might've made that up. But the idea was that humans were the only ape that grew up in close proximity to water to the point where we evolved in the water. Dolphins may have remains of legs. Yeah. Okay. Fossil remains shows dolphins and whales were four-footed land animals about 50 million years ago and share the same common ancestors as hippos and deer. (laughs) Whoa. Scientists believe that they later transitioned to an aquatic lifestyle and that their hind limbs disappeared. Okay, so this is fairly recent if you think about evolutionary terms, the, you know, the dinosaurs were killed 65 million years ago, so inside of that, 15 million years later, they were walking around, which is fucking nuts. They were like hippos. They think... So Google the a- whoa, look at the, what they used to look like. What the fuck, man? Uh, Google aquatic ape theory. Uh, I don't know enough about this to really speak on it, but that has never stopped me in the past. (laughs) But this-

Valentine Thomas 26:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:57 ... this, this theory's the, one of the reasons why, um, they think humans have so much fat on us when we're babies is that we float easier, and that if you take a human baby and you chuck them in the water... Okay, well, what the fuck is that? How about an actual article and not a picture? (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 27:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:11 What is this, cartoon? Um-

Valentine Thomas 27:14 Well, but it's actually, it's not, it's not even just about your heartbeat slowing down. There's a bunch of-

Joe Rogan 27:18 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 27:18 ... things that happens and you, like crazy things.

Joe Rogan 27:20 Babies know how to cl- hold their breath. They instantly hold their breath when you... That's like the, the, the Nirvana album cover.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 27:27 Sorry, I have this.

Valentine Thomas 27:27 The mammalian dive reflex, yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:28 I'm looking this stuff up, yeah.

Valentine Thomas 27:28 Yes, that's, that's exact- that's what I'm talking about.

Joe Rogan 27:29 Purports that some humans, notably children under five, may also use this reflex to survive prolonged submersion. The mammalian dive reflex was developed in the 19... Theory was developed in the 1960s as an explanation for well-publicized survival of exceptional submersion times of some near-drowning victims. But, um, see if there's anything, like an actual article that makes sense on, uh, the aquatic ape theory. There's a new aquatic ape theory.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 27:53 It's from the Smithsonian.

Joe Rogan 27:54 Oh, okay. Hmm, okay. Okay, the aquatic ape theory, now largely dismissed, tries to explain the origins of many humankind, uh, unique traits. Popularized in the 1970s and 1980s by writer Elaine Morgan, the theory suggests that early hominids lived in water at least part of the time. The aquatic life, their... This aquatic lifestyle supposedly accounts for our hairless bodies, which made us more streamlined for swimming and diving, our upright two-legged walking, which made wading easier, and our layers of subcutaneous fat, which made us better insulated in water. Think whale blubber. The theory even links, uh, an aquatic existence to the extinction of human spe- uh, evolution, rather, of human speech. The hypothesis was met with much criticism, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 2009, uh, Richard Wrangham of Harvard University and colleagues suggested in American Journal of Physical Anthropology that shallow aquatic habitats allowed hominids to thrive in savannas, enabling our ancestors to move from tropical forest to open grasslands. So from 2.5 million to 1.4 million years ago, Africa became drier during certain seasons. Already dry savannas became even more arid, making it difficult for hominids to find adequate food, but Wrangham's, uh, team suggested that even in this inhospitable environment, there were oasises, wetlands, and lake shores, and these aquatic habitats, water lilies, cattails, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that's the theory. The theory is that we, like, you know, obviously, there's a bunch of different kinds of, uh, primates, and some of them are still in trees today, those fucking losers.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 29:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:31 We left them behind. Ha ha. Those are the ones that really dumb people point to. "If people came from monkeys, why are monkeys still around?"

Valentine Thomas 29:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:38 Well, they're dumb. They were the dumb monkeys, bro. Come on. (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 29:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 29:42 Get it together. We're the ones that made cars. But that, um, some, some of these apes spent, uh, a lot of time in the water, and that's why, um, if you ever see a baby chimp, they're hard as a rock. They're like, they're jacked. Baby chimps, like, they come out, like, l- like, sinewy, no body fat, and you throw them in the water, they drown. They don't hold their breath, they just ... But they, they don't know what to do. They just g- gag on water and drown. Not that I know. Not that I'm throwing chimps in the water.

Valentine Thomas 30:13 You can add that on your course. You can, you can throw in-

Joe Rogan 30:14 But if you throw a baby person in the water, they hold their breath. So this is the-

Valentine Thomas 30:19 That's pretty cool.

Joe Rogan 30:20 ... this aquatic ape theory.

Valentine Thomas 30:21 Oh, but that's what, that's what a scientists are, are basically saying about free diving, and this is-

Joe Rogan 30:25 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 30:25 ... this is completely... When I first le- sorry. When I first learned about it, it completely blew my mind.

Joe Rogan 30:31 How long can you hold your breath now?

Valentine Thomas 30:32 Uh, five and a half.

Joe Rogan 30:33 Holy shit.

Valentine Thomas 30:35 ... but, like, facing down under water and not moving and doing-

Joe Rogan 30:37 Right.

Valentine Thomas 30:37 ... your preparation.

Joe Rogan 30:38 Not swimming?

Valentine Thomas 30:39 No, not swimming, just face down.

Joe Rogan 30:40 How long can you hold it if you had to dive into the water and sort of give you, what, how much time do you give yourself?

Valentine Thomas 30:46 Uh, it depends the depth. It depends the fish you hunt. It depends the conditions. It depends on a lot of things 100%.

Joe Rogan 30:51 So, like, if you're fighting the water, uh, currents, it's more difficult?

Valentine Thomas 30:55 Yes, because basically what you wanna do when you free dive is you wanna be as calm as possible. You wanna be as relaxed as you can, which is why yoga and meditation are often very close to free diving, because if your heartbeat is, is, is high, then your body's gonna need more oxygen.

Joe Rogan 31:13 Mm. That makes sense, obviously.

Valentine Thomas 31:16 And, but then again, the second you emerge your face under water, you do like your first dive and then you feel the pressure, your body understands that you're trying to, uh, to hold your breath and you need to do that. So, the blood is gonna start coming from, from your fingers, your extremities, your toes, and then your hands, your feet. So all the, all the vessels are, are gonna start, um, constrict. So all the blood flow is gonna go towards your vitals organs. So you actually, your body is getting ready for it. So they wanna make sure that the oxygen's goes exactly where it needs to be and make sure that you need as, as less effort to do anything as possible when you're actually under water.

Joe Rogan 31:54 Now, when you first tried holding your breath, how long could you do it for?

Valentine Thomas 31:58 The first time I did it?

Joe Rogan 31:59 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 32:01 I think my first time trying it was about a minute.

Joe Rogan 32:04 That was like the best you could do?

Valentine Thomas 32:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:06 With no techniques, just ready, go?

Valentine Thomas 32:08 No, no, technique like, like, they, they, you breathe a little bit before so you like-

Joe Rogan 32:12 Even with techniques?

Valentine Thomas 32:13 Yeah, with techniques. It was, it's... When you hold your breath, you have the, a build up of CO2 in your body because you're not, you're not exhaling any.

Joe Rogan 32:22 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 32:22 And then when your body realizes that there's a build up, it gives you an urge to breathe, and then it gives you contract- contractions, like diaphragm contractions. And this is what makes somebody panicked, you know, like, my body needs air and you, you want air, you want air. And then the more you train, then you realize that you learn how to control it. And it's not because your body tell you to breathe that you necessarily out of oxygen.

Joe Rogan 32:46 Mm. So how, what, what techniques do you do to relax that?

Valentine Thomas 32:51 Breathing. So I do mostly, especially when I'm in the water, I do a very short inhale, so about five seconds, and then I do a long inhale, maybe 10 to 15 seconds. And then when you, when you exhale, you're focusing on like everything getting relaxed and then you can start-

Joe Rogan 33:08 I'm sorry, can you say that again 'cause you said inhale twice.

Valentine Thomas 33:10 Oh, sorry, sorry.

Joe Rogan 33:10 Did you mean two?

Valentine Thomas 33:11 No. (laughs) So you inhale for five seconds and then you exhale for 10 to 15 seconds.

Joe Rogan 33:17 Oh, okay. So you exhale slowly?

Valentine Thomas 33:19 You exhale super slowly.

Joe Rogan 33:20 Oh.

Valentine Thomas 33:20 You use your tongue to control the air coming out. And then when you do that, you get as relaxed as possible. And then the more relaxed you are, that along with your normal diving reflex, which is your heart beating slowing down naturally, your blood shifting from extremities to your final organs. And then you also have about-

Joe Rogan 33:40 W-

Valentine Thomas 33:40 A few years ago, maybe only 50 years ago, they thought that when you reached 30 meters, your body would be completely crushed inside. That was the scientist would think.

Joe Rogan 33:49 30 meters?

Valentine Thomas 33:50 Yeah, something like that, that it was like, that the pressure would be so great there that your body would be completely crushed. But then again, with that, with that dive reflex, what it does is that that overflow of blood is going around your alveolis in your lungs, which prevent them from crushing. Your body's, is actually a designed machine to go under water.

Joe Rogan 34:12 Whoa.

Valentine Thomas 34:13 Which is completely crazy considering that I've never knew that, especially growing up in downtown Montreal.

Joe Rogan 34:20 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 34:21 And then you put somebody in the water and you're like, "Hey, you're actually made for that." So when people tell me, "Ah, I could never do that. It's too hard." No, no, you, you're actually born like that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 34:30 So was it like a, was it a revelation for you? I mean, did you really feel like this is more of who I am than, than the life that I was living before?

Valentine Thomas 34:39 100%. It's I had this... I was living in London too, so it was all about, all about, you know, earning money to buy as many things as possible, to try and impress as many people as possible. And then at some point I was like, "Wow, I, I just, I, I cannot do that. I cannot spend in, my entire life just seeking to buy things, impress people I don't like." And then when I started spearfishing, it really gave me a different perspective on, on life. It gave me the... it, it humbled me in a way that was so, so intense that it, it changed my, it changed my way of thinking completely, basically. So as I was...

Joe Rogan 35:23 How did it humble you? Like in what way?

Valentine Thomas 35:25 Because I realized that when we were... Let's say when I, when I'm, when I film a documentary in, um, south Amer- um, I film a documentary called Aqua Negra in, um, in Cape Verde two years ago.

Joe Rogan 35:40 Aqua Negra?

Valentine Thomas 35:41 Yeah. Agua. Agua with a G.

Joe Rogan 35:43 Agua?

Valentine Thomas 35:44 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:44 Does that mean black water? Is that what it means?

Valentine Thomas 35:46 Yes, in Portuguese. And then, uh, we were there for about five weeks, five or six weeks, and then the living conditions were really bad. And there was no grocery stores around and we had to catch our own food and it was really a self-sufficient type of trip. And the first week I remember the only thing I could focus on was, "Oh, God, this is, this is terrible that, that we don't have a shower, there's no hot water, bathroom was disgusting. I'm starving. There's nothing around." And then all you can think is like how your comfort's gone. And after a week, that's, the, the, the focus changed on the good things that we're seeing around us. And by having nothing all of a sudden, then I was like, "Oh, I actually now for the first time in my life can take the time to realize what's good around me."... and then how we were having fires with the neighbors and then how we were offering them fish. And we would think, "Oh, you know, if I give this guy two fish, he's gonna eat one today and then one tomorrow." But, no, they're inviting new neighbors to share and they make sure that there's, like, a whole, like, community sense to all of it. And I was like, "Wow, I've been living in London for six years, I don't even know the name of my neighbor." And it's, it's, it's bad. It's not, it's not a way of living that I want. It's not focusing on the right things and it's, it was... That, that, that's in that way. You know, it's realize how much of, how much of a, an asshole we actually became and I just didn't wanna do that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 37:16 Well, it's a very recent way that people have been living. This, this way of living in apartment buildings and the way of living in houses where we don't know our neighbors.

Valentine Thomas 37:24 Yes.

Joe Rogan 37:25 In terms of human history, it's, it's very recent. And I don't think we're designed for it.

Valentine Thomas 37:31 I don't think so either. It's the, the human... I do believe that a human being, to be happy, you need to have this sense of community, which is why, you know, when you go on the subway and you see, like, somebody singing, everybody's laughing, and you see those videos on YouTube and it makes you all warm and happy inside-

Joe Rogan 37:47 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 37:48 ... it's because that's what we, we're, we're meant to be, you know? And it's, we're meant to live with other people, we're meant to socialize. We're meant to have this, this, this, you know, this strong feeling of, of, of, um... I don't know how to say that in English. Um, to be part of a something, to be part of a group and people like that. And I'm, I do think it's just a necessity for a human being to be actually happy.

Joe Rogan 38:10 I think so too and I think it's probably one of the reasons why so many people are so grossly unhappy and so depressed and so disconnected and, and they feel alienated even though they live in these giant cities. People feel extremely lonely even though there's a lot of people around. I mean, um, one of the weirder things about New York City, um, you know, I have friends that live in New York City and one of the things they, they say they love is how many people are there. It's, there's all this energy, there's all this energy. I'm like, "Yeah, but you're not even talking to those people." That's what's weird. It's like you're alienated in this little 1,200 foot little cubicle that you live in. You know, this little... I guess 1,200 foot's not that small, but, you know. Some of them, like Ari's place is like, I have to ask him. I think it's tiny. It's probably like half that. It's probably like 600 feet.

Valentine Thomas 38:56 It's probably like five million. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 38:58 It's probably super expensive, right? But the idea is that you don't know anybody around you, but you're stacked around all these people and then you go out and you're walking around these people, but you're not really talking to them. And you have a few people that you're friends with, maybe that you work with and you interact with them, but then you're constantly surrounded by all these other people that you don't even know. And it's a very weird, weird way to live. Whereas the way you were living, the way you were describing this, with these people and they're all sharing fish and they're, you know, you're... Everyone's taking care of everybody and giving some to their neighbors and sharing and that's how people have been living forever. I think there's certain human reward systems that are built into who we are as a being, as a species, that just aren't being met.

Valentine Thomas 39:46 Sure.

Joe Rogan 39:46 And that's why I'm so fascinated by your choice to go from being a lawyer to living this, you know, very, uh, very interesting life of spearfishing.

Valentine Thomas 39:56 But it's also, it's, it's not always easy in the sense that I, I still haven't found a place where I wanna live, because it's, the society isn't designed for this. My lifestyle is very hard to adapt with modern society. I struggle with, with, with a lot of things. I don't know, I don't know where to live. I don't know... 'Cause this sense of community, you can have it in small villages.

Joe Rogan 40:22 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 40:23 So, that's kind of why I, I've been living in, um... Well, not anymore, but I lived in the Bahamas for a year and I got to experience that, when everybody knows each other, everybody talk to each other.

Joe Rogan 40:33 Why don't you stay there?

Valentine Thomas 40:34 Um, because for now, I guess... Well, I, I, I couldn't... I broke up with my ex-boyfriend, I couldn't live there anymore, so. It was his house, I was like, "All right."

Joe Rogan 40:44 Wow.

Valentine Thomas 40:44 "I'm out." (laughs) So, that is, I, I, I, I just... I, I don't know. It's... I still need, you know, to survive.

Joe Rogan 40:52 Right.

Valentine Thomas 40:52 I still need to... Yeah, I catch a lot of my own food and my freezer's literally full to, to the brim, but I, I... You still need money to live.

Joe Rogan 41:02 Right. And how, how do you make money?

Valentine Thomas 41:05 Um, I get a few things. I'm working right now on, on a cookbook and a TV show with a Canadian company.

Joe Rogan 41:12 Do you make any money off your Instagram page?

Valentine Thomas 41:14 Uh, yeah, sometimes.

Joe Rogan 41:15 'Cause some people do, right?

Valentine Thomas 41:16 Sometimes.

Joe Rogan 41:17 How do you do that?

Valentine Thomas 41:18 It's-

Joe Rogan 41:18 How do you make money off your Instagram page?

Valentine Thomas 41:19 Like sponsors and different things like that. I just don't like being like, "Hey, drink my detox tea."

Joe Rogan 41:25 Oh, yeah.

Valentine Thomas 41:25 I just-

Joe Rogan 41:25 Skinny tea. Ooh.

Valentine Thomas 41:28 (laughs) I just, I just, I just don't like doing that.

Joe Rogan 41:30 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 41:30 And the problem also is, like... Was it two years ago? I was a super big contract with a cruise ship company. They needed a girl to, like... They needed a free diving girl and we're not that many of us. So, when they hired me and about a week later, she calls me back, she's like, "Oh, I'm sorry, we can't hire you anymore." I'm like, "What? Why?" And she says, "Because we're partnered with WWF and our marketing, uh, our marketing department said that you raised a red flag because you spearfish for a living."

Joe Rogan 42:02 WWF, the wrestling? WWE?

Valentine Thomas 42:05 The WW... Like, the panda one. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:08 Like, the what?

Valentine Thomas 42:08 The one with the panda.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 42:09 The one that made them change their name to WWE, the World Wide...

Joe Rogan 42:13 Yeah, that's what it used to be. But, um-

Valentine Thomas 42:14 Okay.

Joe Rogan 42:15 ... but what are you s-... Is that what you're saying, the wrestling, pro-wrestling?

Valentine Thomas 42:18 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 42:18 No?

Valentine Thomas 42:18 The, the, the eco-friendly, the...

Joe Rogan 42:21 Oh.

Valentine Thomas 42:21 With the panda, damn it.

Joe Rogan 42:23 World Wildlife Federation? Is that what it is?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 42:25 Yeah, that one.

Joe Rogan 42:25 Oh, they made them change their name? That's why they changed their name?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 42:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:27 Oh, I thought they changed their name because of a lawsuit because they, they had to show that they were entertainment.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 42:33 I don't think so. This thing.

Joe Rogan 42:35 Huh. So, WWF owned it?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 42:39 I believe so.

Joe Rogan 42:40 In- I didn't know that.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 42:41 Nope.

Joe Rogan 42:42 I really thought that it was just because of, um...... regulations, WWF.

Valentine Thomas 42:46 WWF. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:47 (laughs) So-

Valentine Thomas 42:49 So basically, yeah, they said like, "Oh, because we really wanna keep er, er, eco-friendly partners."

Joe Rogan 42:54 Meanwhile, their fucking boat's filled with roast beef, chicken, and all sorts of other shit that-

Valentine Thomas 42:58 Meanwhile, when they cross, they're allowed... I think it's about when you're two miles away from the coast, you're allowed to dump your garbage in the ocean.

Joe Rogan 43:06 What?

Valentine Thomas 43:06 Everything. As a cruise ship, you're allowed to open the trap-

Joe Rogan 43:09 Come on.

Valentine Thomas 43:09 ... and just throw everything in the freaking ocean.

Joe Rogan 43:11 Come on. Is that true?

Valentine Thomas 43:12 It's true. That, that's the law.

Joe Rogan 43:14 What?

Valentine Thomas 43:14 It's the law. And, and, and, and, and-

Joe Rogan 43:15 They do that?

Valentine Thomas 43:16 Of course they do that.

Joe Rogan 43:18 Oh, my God.

Valentine Thomas 43:19 And that's one of them. That's one of the problem. How many, there, there, there five people cruise ship. How many straw do you think they use and glasses, because they're too lazy to wash them? That's one of the problem.

Joe Rogan 43:31 Whoa.

Valentine Thomas 43:31 And in The Bahamas, you know, you know how much dredging you need to make for, for a cruise ship, a boat to actually pass and dock somewhere? You need to rip off the entire bottom of the ocean so it's deep enough. It's a very, very detrimental, um, organization for the, for, for the ocean. And then they're telling me, "Oh, sorry, we can't work with you because you catch your own food in the water." Then...

Joe Rogan 43:56 Wow.

Valentine Thomas 43:56 "I'm sorry, you're bad for the ocean." I'm like, "What? I catch my own food." I don't buy this disgusting farmed salmon from Whole Food because it's gross. And now you're telling me that I'm bad. Like, "What?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:07 Yeah, most people don't know that farmed salmon, they dye the fish to make it look orange. Like, if you buy farmed salmon and they're not dying it, it would be a white meat because they're not eating what they eat naturally. It's bugs, certain bugs give them, or shrimp. What is it? No. It's, um, pelicans. No, not pelicans. What are those little fucking weird-

Valentine Thomas 44:29 Bunch of crabs.

Joe Rogan 44:29 The ones that people have in their lawns.

Valentine Thomas 44:31 Salmon is not pale orange. It's dark orange.

Joe Rogan 44:33 Flamingos, flamingos are pink because of the s- this shrimp they eat, right?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 44:38 I think so.

Joe Rogan 44:39 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 44:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 44:39 It, it literally makes them pink. But salmon are dark when they're wild because of their diet, their natural diet, which includes a lot of bugs, I guess.

Valentine Thomas 44:48 Yeah, they, they, they just basically feed them with whatever they have. Like, salmon is not supposed to be pale orange.

Joe Rogan 44:54 Right.

Valentine Thomas 44:54 It's dark orange.

Joe Rogan 44:55 Right. Yeah. Yeah, I've caught wild salmon before.

Valentine Thomas 44:58 It's-

Joe Rogan 44:58 It's awesome. Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 45:00 It, it, it is really good.

Joe Rogan 45:01 It tastes different too. Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 45:02 But sadly, with all the, um, the water dam that they made for, to make electricity-

Joe Rogan 45:07 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 45:07 ... and the, and all the stuff like that, they killed all of them.

Joe Rogan 45:10 Well, they killed quite a few. There was a, there's an interesting place in Seattle where you can go and watch the salmon swim upriver. There's like a bridge, and you go underneath the bridge. And they have this set up where there's, uh, thick glass walls where you can actually look into the ocean and watch the salmon go up the salmon ladder. It's really fascinating. So, it's crazy to watch them. But, uh, one of the guys who was there who was a guide was explaining how when they were doing construction and doing various things when they were building Seattle, they had shut down one of the rivers. And these salmon would just get to the mouth of the river where they thought they were supposed to go and fucking die. And it was crazy. Like, millions of them died while they were trying to figure out a way to carve this path again and-

Valentine Thomas 45:53 Yeah. It's pretty weird how they die too. They like rot.

Joe Rogan 45:56 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 45:56 I went to, I, I went diving in the, in the Salmon River in, in the, in, in BC and I was underwater with my GoPro and I could see they had like big stains of like rot on their body.

Joe Rogan 46:07 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 46:07 So, they live like their full life in the ocean and they came to breed one last time-

Joe Rogan 46:11 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 46:11 ... which I guess is a good last choice when you think about it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:14 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 46:15 And then they just rot to, to death.

Joe Rogan 46:17 Yeah, it's very strange. Yeah. And if you catch them too far along the process, their body's already deteriorated. Like, um, you know, I know guys who have caught them and then you can... You know, they've... In survival situations, like, people eat them because you have to. But if you caught them, like, towards the end of their cycle, their body's like mush. Like, you can, you can literally shove your fingers through it.

Valentine Thomas 46:39 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:41 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 46:41 Well, it's, but you see, that's what, that's what people eat. But again, you know, The Wall Street Journal in their Instagram page, when they're promoting a recipe for shrimp, they're probably coming from Thailand, or salmon-

Joe Rogan 46:52 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 46:53 ... that is farmed and very bad for the environment. But then they think that... I don't know. There's something ridiculously taboo about catching food.

Joe Rogan 47:03 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 47:03 It's ridiculous. And people... Imagine, you know how, I know how hunting has a bad reputation for, for because of the blood and-

Joe Rogan 47:12 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 47:12 ... and things like that. But in fishing, we deal on top of it with a bunch of lobbyists that are fighting us for the fish at the same time.

Joe Rogan 47:21 Because they want to sell those fish.

Valentine Thomas 47:23 Because they want the fish.

Joe Rogan 47:24 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 47:24 And all, all we are for them is something in the way and we don't buy their fish at all.

Joe Rogan 47:29 Right.

Valentine Thomas 47:29 But-

Joe Rogan 47:29 And because there's so few of you, they can, they can, you know, lobby you out.

Valentine Thomas 47:34 They can shut us down.

Joe Rogan 47:35 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 47:35 They can, they can say anything that they want about us and we don't have the power to, to say something back.

Joe Rogan 47:40 Right. If they shut down sports f- spearfishing, there wou- really wouldn't be much outcry. How many spearfisher people are there?

Valentine Thomas 47:48 I would lose my shit, but I don't think I can do much. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:50 (laughs) Well, you'd make a post on Instagram and a couple people-

Valentine Thomas 47:53 Yeah, exactly.

Joe Rogan 47:53 ... would like it.

Valentine Thomas 47:53 And like, "Ah." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:55 Yeah, I got 5,000 likes.

Valentine Thomas 47:56 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:57 Um, how many spearfisher people are in the country? Let's, let's Google just America, just United States. How many spearfis- how would you know? Because do you have to have, you don't have to have a license for, for the ocean, right?

Valentine Thomas 48:12 Um, it depends on the state. For, for-

Joe Rogan 48:14 Some states-

Valentine Thomas 48:15 Florida, you do.

Joe Rogan 48:16 You do have to have a license?

Valentine Thomas 48:16 And Florida you do.

Joe Rogan 48:18 Oh, interesting.

Valentine Thomas 48:18 Well, it's like, you know, $25 license and-

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 48:21 I, I Googled that and there's a city called Spearfish in South Dakota.

Joe Rogan 48:25 Oh.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 48:25 It gave me the populations.

Valentine Thomas 48:26 (laughs)

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 48:26 And I don't know how to find it.

Joe Rogan 48:28 Um, how many active spe- just write spearfishermen. No disrespect to the spearfisher ladies.

Valentine Thomas 48:37 No problem.

Joe Rogan 48:38 (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 48:38 I, I don't think we count that much in the databases we use.

Joe Rogan 48:40 How many spearfishermen are there in the United States? It's going back to that state or that city?

Valentine Thomas 48:48 It's growing really fast, actually. The sport is-

Joe Rogan 48:50 It is?

Valentine Thomas 48:50 ... it is going fast. There's like a trend now for people to catch their own food, and people are starting slowly, 'cause there's so many of big people, special celebrities-

Joe Rogan 48:59 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 48:59 ... um, that are-

Joe Rogan 49:01 That are spearfishing?

Valentine Thomas 49:02 ... that are ... No, that are voicing themself when it comes to food sourcing. And now people are starting to realize that hunting or spearfishing is actually not as bad-

Joe Rogan 49:11 It's way better.

Valentine Thomas 49:11 ... at it.

Joe Rogan 49:12 But it's just very difficult, you know?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:14 According-

Valentine Thomas 49:15 Of course it is.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:15 ... to Sports Illustrated, there's estimated between one million and two million, so ...

Joe Rogan 49:20 In the country?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:21 All right.

Valentine Thomas 49:21 Highly doubt that.

Joe Rogan 49:22 That's a lot of people.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:23 Yeah, that's a big estimation.

Valentine Thomas 49:24 I don't think so. Big gap.

Joe Rogan 49:24 That's like almost, that's cl- close to 1%. Right? There's three million people, if there's two million-

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:30 That's-

Joe Rogan 49:31 300 million people, rather. If there's two million spearfisher people?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:34 Yeah, close. Yeah, but that's-

Joe Rogan 49:37 That doesn't make sense.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:37 ... it's a gigantic estimation, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:38 That's ridiculous. That's w- I mean, even if it was, uh, one-half of a percent, that's crazy. So you're telling me if you get a room of 200 people, one of them's gonna be a spearfisherman? Get the fuck outta here.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:47 Oh, I'm sorry. This article I just saw at the very, very top is from 1954.

Joe Rogan 49:52 (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 49:52 Oh.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:52 There was only 80 people alive back then, man.

Joe Rogan 49:54 Man-

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:54 That makes it even worse, I feel like.

Joe Rogan 49:57 (laughs)

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 49:57 (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 49:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:57 That's hilarious. You talk about pulling a ... You know those people that, "Yeah, bro, that article's from 2016."

Valentine Thomas 50:04 (laughs)

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 50:04 From the very top, it's from-

Joe Rogan 50:05 Wow. You should know if you want, wanna take up spearfishing. Wow. By The Know-It-All.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 50:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 50:13 Wow. That's crazy. 1954.

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 50:18 So, I'll try again.

Joe Rogan 50:19 Okay. Just give it a shot. Whatever.

Valentine Thomas 50:21 I mean, it's a great sport. It's the best way to, it's the best way to eat fish and seafood.

Joe Rogan 50:25 Oh, I can only imagine.

Valentine Thomas 50:26 If you-

Joe Rogan 50:26 Look, I love fishing. I lo- I love fishing, it's really fun.

Valentine Thomas 50:30 It can be a little stressful sometimes, I get that. But it's-

Joe Rogan 50:34 Because of-

Valentine Thomas 50:34 Imagine if you, you floating, you're floating in a saltwater tank. And then you're looking around and you're trying to meditate as much as you can. And then you waiting, you're in a hunting mode, you're focusing on your prey to try to get it. And then you have like five grizzly bears that are circling you, trying to eat your ass.

Joe Rogan 50:52 Does that happen all the time?

Valentine Thomas 50:53 But it's trying to eat the fish, not you. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:55 Do you ever, do you get approached by sharks?

Valentine Thomas 50:57 In the Bahamas, yeah. In the Bahamas-

Joe Rogan 50:59 Yeah?

Valentine Thomas 50:59 ... they're pretty much always there.

Joe Rogan 51:02 There's a guy who just got bit in Texas. He got bit by a bull shark, and now he has flesh-eating bacteria that's destroying his leg.

Valentine Thomas 51:11 Apparently.

Joe Rogan 51:11 Apparently there's flesh-eating bacteria in the water. We don't need to Google that. It's pretty-

Valentine Thomas 51:15 That's a bad day.

Joe Rogan 51:15 ... pretty disgusting.

Valentine Thomas 51:18 I got pretty bad encounters with sharks.

Joe Rogan 51:19 Yeah? What happened?

Valentine Thomas 51:20 My worst one was in Tampa, actually. Something super easy, it was in 15 feet of water. And that's actually the danger of spearfishing is when you start getting cocky, and you say like, "Oh, the water's shallow. It's fine, we don't have to watch each other. Everybody's doing their own thing," which is really bad. Definitely never do this. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:39 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 51:39 I got my lesson big time. And I was, I shot a little fish, so I clip it to the back of my gun. And then this tiger shark come in. And I'm like, "Ooh, tiger shark." (laughs) They a little bit, they can be-

Joe Rogan 51:52 They're aggressive.

Valentine Thomas 51:52 Yeah. (laughs) They're, they're not the nicest one you wanna, you wanna show up. And then it was a junio- juvenile one. It was still a good, like, seven feet long. Seven, yeah, about seven feet long. But it was young. And the young's are really the one that you don't trust. The big old sharks, you know, they wiser, they know, they check you out and things like that. But the young ones, they run a little bit crazy, so they gonna go more towards you and they gonna go try to do like curious bites, which is mo- what, what happens most of the time with shark bites, is a curious bite. And so the, the, the shark is in front of me, and he's charging me with his mouth open. So with my gun, I'm, I'm, I'm poking it.

Joe Rogan 52:34 Whoa.

Valentine Thomas 52:35 I'm poking like the eyes, I'm poking the gills, I'm poking the nose. I'm trying to poke everything that's gonna hurt him as much as I can. And I'm not very strong, especially in the water. So I'm really trying to like bang this fricking gun as much, as hard as I could in his face. And he, he doesn't back down. He keeps like circling and he keeps coming in for me.

Joe Rogan 52:54 Whoa.

Valentine Thomas 52:54 And at some point I'm like, okay, like something ... I'm gonna have to shoot it, hoping that, that, you know, I'm not gonna miss. (laughs) 'Cause if I miss, then it's the only thing between me and the shark. And then-

Joe Rogan 53:06 So you're, you're poking it with the tip.

Valentine Thomas 53:08 Yeah, I'm just poking him with the tip. And then he roll his eyes back-

Joe Rogan 53:11 Oh.

Valentine Thomas 53:12 ... which is when they-

Joe Rogan 53:12 They bite then.

Valentine Thomas 53:13 ... they ready, they're ready to bite. And I'm like, "Oh, shit." And I'm like, I'm, I'm dying, and I'm like, "Okay, well, whatever," you know? It's not like ... I'm like, okay, I'm, I'm gonna try to aim and try to see if I can shoot it. And then my friend arrive. He's like, "Oh, I heard you screaming. What's up? You have a fish?" I'm like, "Uh, there's a tiger shark behind you, buddy." And he's like, "Oh, crap." He was like, my friend Felix from Montreal, he's like a 17-year-old at the time, and he'd never, rarely spearfished. It was his first time he was seeing a shark. I promised his parents I would bring him back (laughs) in one piece.

Joe Rogan 53:43 Oh, Jesus.

Valentine Thomas 53:44 I'm like, I'm like, okay, I'm like, "Don't panic. Everything is fine."

Joe Rogan 53:47 How deep is the water?

Valentine Thomas 53:48 Like 15 feet of water. It was so shallow. So I'm like, "Put your back against mine, and then cover your half, and if he comes too close, just poke it." And the shark came in a couple of times, and then because we were two, he was like, "Eh, whatever," and he just left. He didn't like that-

Joe Rogan 54:01 Wow.

Valentine Thomas 54:01 ... that he was outnumbered. And I'm like, "Wow." So when I was alone with the shark, I was screaming in the water and I was like calling my friends for help, and then nobody could hear me. And then we went back to the boat-

Joe Rogan 54:12 But if you scream under the water, how far away can people hear you?

Valentine Thomas 54:16 N- not too, n- not, not too far. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:18 10 feet? 15 feet?

Valentine Thomas 54:20 So, it depends on the wave, again, and the winds and everything-

Joe Rogan 54:22 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 54:22 ... like that. But nobody could definitely hear me. Then when I got, get back on the boat, my friend, I see my friend swimming towards the boat. And he screams, "Tiger shark!" I'm like, "No shit, you dumbass, I've been like screaming for your help for the past half an hour." And then he get to the boat, and we left, and the shark was like circling. It was like, ugh.

Joe Rogan 54:38 Ugh.

Valentine Thomas 54:39 That was really scary, but in that situation, again, if I had shot the shark to, to save myself, it's, I would have got the worst publicity ever.... it's- it's- I- I just- that's one of the things I don't understand.

Joe Rogan 54:56 When did that happen-

Valentine Thomas 54:57 It was-

Joe Rogan 54:57 ... where sharks became something that are protected in the public eye? Because w- w- was it the Governor of New York that k- killed that shark when he was, uh, fishing? Someone... Was it the governor or the mayor, one of those guys? Was, uh, s- was sport fishing, caught a shark and... Was it the governor?

Guest (unidentified male friend/producer) 55:17 Yeah, Cuomo.

Joe Rogan 55:18 Cuomo. So-

Valentine Thomas 55:19 Very common in the States, shark fishing, but-

Joe Rogan 55:22 They're edible. I've had mako shark in restaurants before. But something happened, something changed and I think it was when there was all this awareness about, um, shark fin soup. Yeah, there it is. Andrew Cuomo.

Valentine Thomas 55:35 Yes.

Joe Rogan 55:35 He caught a 154-pound thresher shark and everybody freaked the fuck out.

Valentine Thomas 55:39 Yeah. It's when- it's when they realized that- that the Asians were catching millions a day to make-

Joe Rogan 55:43 Mm-hmm.

Valentine Thomas 55:44 ... sh- to make-

Joe Rogan 55:44 Shark fin soup.

Valentine Thomas 55:46 ... shark fin soup.

Joe Rogan 55:46 Yeah, so it became instead of it being something that was just another fish, then it became something that's protected and people with a very shallow understanding of what a shark is were freaking out about it.

Valentine Thomas 55:59 Yeah, exactly. It's- it's the Asians were meaner for everybody else. (laughs) I'm joking.

Joe Rogan 56:03 Right. (laughs) How dare you? Be careful today. Don't say that. Especially with Crazy Rich Asians, number one in the box office.

Valentine Thomas 56:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:10 Um, I mean, it's- that- that practice of chopping off the fins and throwing the sharks back is horrific, but there's- there are sustainable populations of some sharks. I mean, apparently off of, uh, the coast of, um, California, um, near Catalina Island, that- the Channel Islands, a lot of mako sharks out there.

Valentine Thomas 56:29 And then great whites. Actually the populations of sharks right now in California is very high of great whites-

Joe Rogan 56:35 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 56:35 ... because the seal population became really high and then because, you know, the- the great white shark population takes more time to grow, now we're at a stage where there's, uh, shit tons of lionfish and now there's a lot of great whites too.

Joe Rogan 56:47 Mm-hmm. But ch- great whites are protected, right? (coughs)

Valentine Thomas 56:51 Yes. Yes, definitely.

Joe Rogan 56:52 But tiger sharks protected?

Valentine Thomas 56:54 Sharks are protected in a lot of places. In Florida, I don't think you're allowed to eat... Depends where. Some marinas are very funny about it. In New York, I went spearfishing in New York, uh, about a couple of months ago and a guy was, like, cutting a mako on a dock and nobody was- seemed to be offended by it at all.

Joe Rogan 57:13 Well, people that are on the water, people that are fisher people, they- they wouldn't be offended. It's- it's the casual person on the outside that gets offended.

Valentine Thomas 57:22 Yeah, exactly, but again, you know, that's what's- that's what the- that's the double-edged sword of- of the internet, you know? It gave a voice to everybody, the-

Joe Rogan 57:29 Exactly.

Valentine Thomas 57:30 But it's just, like, you know, like, remember that gorilla thing? What was his name, uh-

Joe Rogan 57:34 Harambe?

Valentine Thomas 57:34 Yeah, people are like, "Oh, this is terrible. They should have never shot the gorilla. They should have shot the mother instead." I'm like, "What?"

Joe Rogan 57:41 What? (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 57:42 Where someone- a surfer gets bitten by a shark, they're like, "Oh, it's his fault. It was in his territory. Like, you shouldn't have, like, done anything to the shark." I'm like, "Put your mother in that cage with that gorilla, then tell me which one you're gonna shoot. My money's not in the fricken' ... my money's none on your mother. It's probably gonna be in the gorilla."

Joe Rogan 57:57 Yeah, I wish there was another way. I mean, I don't know that they needed to shoot that gorilla. I don't know enough about gorilla behavior. I would like to think that the gorilla wouldn't have done anything to the baby, but I don't know anything.

Valentine Thomas 58:08 I- I- I don't know much about the situation-

Joe Rogan 58:10 But it's sad.

Valentine Thomas 58:10 ... enough to-

Joe Rogan 58:10 It's sad. But if I have to choose-

Valentine Thomas 58:12 ... you know.

Joe Rogan 58:12 ... a baby over a gorilla, I'm taking the baby every time. I'm gonna save the baby. It's a fucking human.

Valentine Thomas 58:18 It's- yeah, but it's- it's- it's easy to be irrational when it comes-

Joe Rogan 58:23 Yes.

Valentine Thomas 58:23 ... to that, but this is-

Joe Rogan 58:23 When it's not you and it- you don't have any stake in the game.

Valentine Thomas 58:26 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 58:26 You're talking about it from the sidelines. And that's people talking about sharks, that's people talking about bears, that's people talking about a lot of animals.

Valentine Thomas 58:34 Yeah, pretty much. And this is why spearfishing, hunting are- is- is very well hated, I guess, a- around the world.

Joe Rogan 58:44 I have friends that run a bear hunting operation in, um, Alberta. Shout out to John and Jen. Uh, saw them this weekend in Calgary. They, uh, they run a bear hunting operation and- well, they hunt- run a hunting operation, but they spend a good amount of time bear hunting black bears. And the black bear population up there is incredibly dense. There's so many of them. They're everywhere. And they decimate the deer population, they decimate the moose, the elk. They eat all the babies. And they cannibalize each other. I mean, th- it's a- it's a- they're beautiful animals, they're fascinating, they're interesting, I'm glad they're around, but their populations need to be controlled. There's a lot of them. And they're delicious. And the- all these things are, like- they fly in the face of reason for most people. They think if you're shooting a bear that you're a trophy hunter, like someone who's shooting a rhino or something like that, someone who's a terrible person who wants to shoot something that's endangered. There's n- th- they are as far from endangered as is humanly possible. They're not in danger by any stretch of the imagination. They live in dense forests and there's a giant number of them. And you can shoot two of them up there. They- they- they encourage you to shoot two of them. They're trying to thin out the population because of the effect they have on the ungulates up there. But it's one of those animals that my friend Steve Rinella calls them charismatic mega-fauna.

Valentine Thomas 1:00:00 It's cute.

Joe Rogan 1:00:00 Yeah, well it's- it's just we've made them into movie characters and TV show characters and people have this idea of what they are based on just this- this sort of image that gets portrayed in the public and we accept this narrative, and I think that's happening right now with sharks. You know, no one wants sharks to go extinct. I think sharks are awesome, they're cool. But they're also edible. Like, and if there's a lot of them, I- I- I've seen people catch mako sharks, uh, off of the coast of California and- and cut them up and make shark steaks of them and eat them. And it used to be normal. No one cared, until I- I feel like within the last decade. Something happened in the last decade that people became incredibly outraged when someone kills a shark.

Valentine Thomas 1:00:49 Uh, uh, I- I actually think that people become outraged when you kill anything...

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 ... but they're so hypocritical because they're killing things left and right with their pocketbook. They just don't know it.

Valentine Thomas 1:00:59 Of course it is.

Joe Rogan 1:00:59 They're killing things with their credit card, they're, they're killing things with cash. If you buy fish in the store, you're killing fish. I don't care if you like to think you're not, you are. You're supporting the fish industry, you're supporting the killing of these animals. You're eating them. It's a direct connection. You're paying a supermarket hitman to go out and do the work for you.

Valentine Thomas 1:01:16 100%. If you eat fish, you cannot be against spearfishing. If you eat meat, you cannot be against hunting.

Joe Rogan 1:01:22 But it's also the weirdness of it. The, I, I went to Whole Foods today on, before I, I came here, to get some lunch, and as I'm walking through just ... Because I was thinking that I was going to have this conversation with you today. And I'm walking by these long aisles of ice with these fish on it, and I could just point to one of those fish and go, "Hey, give me that thing." No connection whatsoever to where that thing came from, how it got there, I just take it and I can bring it here.

Valentine Thomas 1:01:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:49 I probably should have, just for effect, just slap it down on the table.

Valentine Thomas 1:01:53 Well, I mean, imagine the amount of grocery stores in the country-

Joe Rogan 1:01:57 Right.

Valentine Thomas 1:01:57 ... with a fish display which is completely full.

Joe Rogan 1:02:00 Well, let's just imagine in this area there's a Whole Foods that's about p- two miles up this way, and then if we go down the street there's another one, there's a Sprouts, they have a fish section. Then we go a little bit further down, there's a Gelson's, they have a big fix- fish section. There's just fish all over the place. But the ocean's pretty fucking far from here. (laughs) I mean, you have to drive to get to the ocean, you know? And they're not going to the ocean and pulling these fish out themselves. They, they ... It's all coming from a giant commercial boat that distributes it all throughout Southern California, all throughout Northern California, all throughout ... Then you get into the middle of the country, that's where it gets really crazy.

Valentine Thomas 1:02:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:38 If you're buying halibut and you're in South Dakota, where the fuck is that coming from?

Valentine Thomas 1:02:42 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:43 You know?

Valentine Thomas 1:02:43 Alaska, probably.

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Yeah, you're not supposed to eat halibut if you live there. (laughs)

Valentine Thomas 1:02:47 I, I, I completely agree. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 You should, you should be close. Should be close, though. I mean, I'm not, I'm just kidding. Eat halibut.

Valentine Thomas 1:02:54 Eat trout. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:02:54 Go ahead. Eat whatever you gotta eat, but it's ... We're weird. People are weird and our connection with food-

Valentine Thomas 1:03:00 Yeah, but all of those, all of those boats, you know, they have ... I, I mean, the States is actually doing a way better job than a lot of countries, I must admit, on the control of fisheries. But when, when I see laws and regulations on the small little individual anglers or spear fishermen-

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 1:03:18 ... and then I see a trawler that can catch everything he wants, that's just, it's just bores my blood to a next level.

Joe Rogan 1:03:25 Well, it's insane, and in our lifetime, the population has decreased radically. And, um, there's no better example than that than the Tokyo fish markets. You know, the Tokyo fish markets, you interview those guys and they talk about what it used to be like, when they ... Just the amount of tuna that they used to deal with and the amount they deal with now, it's a significant dip. And this is within, you know, 40 years. Like, what is it gonna be like 40 years from now? And estimates are that it's going to be a, a radical decrease in the population of almost all fish.

Valentine Thomas 1:03:57 Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's, it's, that's the problem. People want to have access to everything now. If, if we would put regulations on everybody's fish, it's like, "Okay, look, everybody. I know you want your salmon, but it's gonna be closed from January to May. I know you want your halibut, but you can't eat it this year. We'll give you it next year." If we would be willing to live with just ... I mean, I think people would survive it, that's for sure, because I don't think ... People will get used to pretty much anything. But then the industry worths- is worth so much money that they would not be willing to do that.

Joe Rogan 1:04:30 It's not just the industry is worth so much money, it's that there's certain people in certain countries in particular where that is all they have. I mean, there's certain people out there where they, they're dependent upon the ocean and its bounty for their survival. And if they can't sell fish, then they can't buy fish. And we're talking about individual fisherpeople that have boats and, you know, are doing it on their own, small-scale commercial fishermen. There's not a lot of room for error there. They're not making a, a ton of money.

Valentine Thomas 1:04:57 No. Those aren't the problem, though, like the small family, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:05:00 Right.

Valentine Thomas 1:05:00 ... commercial fishing boat, they're not the problem. I mean, it's when you see, when you see those guys bringing it, you know, like the guy in the video earlier. Yeah, he's catching ... A big net and he's catching, like, quite a bit of fish. But the reality of things are ships, foreign ships, raiding the entire ocean with, with nets that are, like, kilometers long.

Joe Rogan 1:05:20 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 1:05:21 Like, um, a, a, a fillet-... a net is, is a, a mile long.

Joe Rogan 1:05:25 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 1:05:26 And you just catch everything you can in it. And then you're like, "Next to it"-

Joe Rogan 1:05:30 Dolphins, turtles-

Valentine Thomas 1:05:31 Turtles, dolphins-

Joe Rogan 1:05:32 ... everything.

Valentine Thomas 1:05:32 ... sharks, everything.

Joe Rogan 1:05:34 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 1:05:34 And then it's not, it's not the freaking Johnson family that lives in North Carolina-

Joe Rogan 1:05:39 Right.

Valentine Thomas 1:05:39 ... and are catching lobster and, uh, and, and then tuna that are making a problem.

Joe Rogan 1:05:44 But you would have to have some regulations that were accepted by all these different countries, too. And that would be a real difficult thing to pull off, to get these countries to accept that they're gonna lose money, and to do it in a timely fashion where these, these fish could actually bounce back.

Valentine Thomas 1:06:01 It's not gonna happen until there's nothing left.

Joe Rogan 1:06:03 That's crazy.

Valentine Thomas 1:06:04 And it's ... Everybody sees it, everybody is talking about it, but, you know-

Joe Rogan 1:06:09 When you look at the sheer size of the ocean, the idea that we could, uh, fish the ocean out is so crazy.

Valentine Thomas 1:06:16 That's a lot of fish. But when you see those commercial boats and how ... The quantity of fish they manage to take out of the ocean, it's a lot of fish. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:25 Is there any talk about doing something about this? Is there, is there anything on the table, is there any discussion about regulating the amount of fish these gigantic boats can pull out?

Valentine Thomas 1:06:36 Well, again, the US is trying to, to, to regulate that and they actually made efforts that, that, that proved to increase the, the, the amount of fish. So it's good. They're actually working in the right direction. But the problem is that still to this day, I'm not sure exactly how much, uh, how many nautical mile you have to be, but a Russian or a Chinese foreigner trawler is allowed to fish from the coast of the United States.... in international water, they just raid everything and there's nothing you can do about it. Who's gonna regulate that?

Joe Rogan 1:07:09 Right.

Valentine Thomas 1:07:09 The UN? China's gonna be like, "Yeah. Sure, buddy."

Joe Rogan 1:07:13 Yeah. I mean, look, Japan's still killing whales. You know, they're- they- they kill whales under the guise of, um, of science. Have you seen how they do that, the Sea Shepherd Plus-

Valentine Thomas 1:07:22 Yes.

Joe Rogan 1:07:22 ... those guys?

Valentine Thomas 1:07:22 How they pretended that it was for science and-

Joe Rogan 1:07:24 Yeah, and then they kill them and sell them. I mean, it's really fucked up. You know, there were... This, the same exact problem was going on in the United States in the 1800s. Uh, market hunting is what they were calling it, where they, they devastated all the wildlife in North America. The buffalo population was almost brought to extinction levels, really close. Um, there's still some wild herds that exist in Mexico and there were some of them that exist in the United States, and now they've brought them back. But to this day, the majority of buffalo that live in North America are all on private land, the majority of them. But at one point in time, there's millions and millions of them all throughout the country. Um, elk, they're, they've only been repopulated to a small percentage of their original range. I think it's something like 30%. There's some animals that have thrived, like white-tailed deer, because, um, they live, uh, primarily in farmlands and farmlands have gotten so huge that they, they were essentially like farm animals now. It's very strange. Like, when you think of white-tailed deer, the places where they're the most popular, the-

Valentine Thomas 1:08:32 That's like Santa Claus tears, right?

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 No.

Valentine Thomas 1:08:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:34 That's actually reindeer.

Valentine Thomas 1:08:36 Oh. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 That's a caribou.

Valentine Thomas 1:08:37 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:08:38 Yeah. Caribou are these migrating deer that live in Canada primarily and in Alaska, and they migrate for hundreds and hundreds of miles in these massive herds. They're very different in that, you know, unlike, uh, deer, you'll see them, like hundreds of them moving together in, in one group, in one line across the tundra. But these animals that were in North America, not Alaska, but North Ame- no not the... The lower 48, they were wiped out almost to nothing. Antelope, deer, elk, buffalo, they were almost all wiped out by market hunting because this is back when we didn't have refrigerators. So, people would shoot these things and bring them to market and people would go to market and buy that meat and they would bring it in on trucks. I mean, I guess they just had blocks of ice and these, um, trains and trucks, and they would bring in this meat. And they killed almost everything in a short amount of time, like less than 100 years. There was almost nothing left. And then they instituted these laws where it was illegal to sell wild game. So, if you buy elk, like say in this country, if you buy elk meat, you're buying it from New Zealand. You're getting it from-

Valentine Thomas 1:09:46 Oh, so it's act- it's actually enforced right now still?

Joe Rogan 1:09:48 Yeah. Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 1:09:49 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:09:49 There's, there are some, um, commercial farms. I don't know what they sell. I mean, I think you can sell commercially raised deer and elk in America, but if you go to a restaurant, most of what you're getting, you're actually getting from New Zealand.

Valentine Thomas 1:10:03 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:10:04 Yeah. But you can't go to the woods. Like say if you went to the woods and you went and shot an elk like that one up there and you tried to sell, it's illegal to sell. You can't sell that meat. It's not a, uh, a marketable product. It's something that has... You have to have a tag for it, you have to pay for the tag, and then it has to be for your own personal consumption or you can give it away to your friends, but you can't sell it.

Valentine Thomas 1:10:24 Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:10:24 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 1:10:24 Which is not a- much of a bad thing, I mean. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:27 It's the only way. They had to eliminate market hunting. It was the only way to bring these populations back. And then they had to enforce these very strict conservation efforts. And then here's the big one, is, I think it's called the Pickman-Robertson Act, whatever the... Pickman-Robertson, is that it is? That the name of it? It... What it is is it takes 10% of all of the proceeds from hunting supplies and, and gear and puts it to wildlife conservation, which is an enormous amount of money, billions and billions of dollars. So it goes to preserve habitat and wetlands, goes to reintroduce species into places where they had been decimated, like, um, elk are now, uh, in viable numbers in places where they were completely extinct, like in Virginia and, and, uh, I think Tennessee has them now as well. Kentucky, I know has them. Pennsylvania has them. And at one point in time, there was none there, like up until, you know, just a few decades ago.

Valentine Thomas 1:11:23 If it's... If, if things are actually handled in a responsible and smart way, we can... There is a way to save everything. There is a way-

Joe Rogan 1:11:31 But this is the United Sta- The problem is it's the United States.

Valentine Thomas 1:11:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:34 Like, the United States is like, it's, it's on land. It's controllable. You know, it's our... It's, it's within these, the, the boundaries of this, this one country. You know, the control is accepted. When you're talking about the ocean, it'll be really difficult to get other countries to agree to that kind of strict management that brought back wildlife in North America, to do that to the ocean. But if they did do that to the ocean, I mean, maybe everything could bounce back.

Valentine Thomas 1:12:05 I mean, a few states, Florida is definitely one of them, where they're looking very closely to what's going on and then they have closed seasons and things like that, and it actually makes a really nice and big difference. But again, I think the problem is not coming from that. The problem is coming from, again, like deep trawling-

Joe Rogan 1:12:22 Yeah.

Valentine Thomas 1:12:22 ... and the commercial, foreign commercial fishing that is just-

Joe Rogan 1:12:25 What's a big industry in Florida-

Valentine Thomas 1:12:26 ... using outrageous things. It is.

Joe Rogan 1:12:27 Florida sport fishing is a giant industry. People go there every year to grouper fish and fish for tarpon. And you know, there's, there's a lot of fishing in Florida and it, it's probably a pretty significant part of, uh, their economy.

Valentine Thomas 1:12:41 Yeah. I think I read somewhere that, um, actually the number, the number of jobs in recaneral- recreational fishing was higher than in commercial fishing in the States.

Joe Rogan 1:12:52 Wow.

Valentine Thomas 1:12:53 I believe I read that somewhere.

Joe Rogan 1:12:54 The number of jobs, so, so the number of people employed-

Valentine Thomas 1:12:56 So it created more jobs. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:58 Right. So like selling fishing rods and lures and guiding people on boats-

Valentine Thomas 1:13:03 And charters-

Joe Rogan 1:13:04 ... and things like that.

Valentine Thomas 1:13:05 ... and things like that exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:13:05 Yeah. That kind of makes sense.

Valentine Thomas 1:13:07 So the commercial... Also, I mean, the biggest problem with, with commercial fishing is I went to, um-... actually went to, uh, Taiwan last, last year and I was helping them, um, find government and giving them a proposal on how they can change the law to make the fisheries better. And they were explaining to me that, like, they have those ships and they