The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #1202 - Fred Morin & David McMillan
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:23
Apocalypse cookbook concept & the Joe Beef guys’ off-grid mindset
Joe introduces Fred Morin and David McMillan and asks about their book title, “Surviving the Apocalypse.” They explain the book is a vehicle for all their interests—outdoors, foraging, fermentation, and practical survival—not just restaurant recipes. Their personal preparedness (off-grid cabin, car kits) frames the conversation’s tone.
- •Why the second book isn’t “just a cookbook”
- •Editors challenged: ‘we write what we want’ approach
- •Off-grid cabin details and practical preparedness habits
- •Cooking as only one part of their identity
- •Survival kits, outdoor skills, and self-reliance as lifestyle
- 2:23 – 6:13
Montreal winters, grid failure fears & banning wood fires
The talk shifts to how harsh Montreal winters shape a constant survival awareness, especially with children. They criticize proposed bans on fireplaces/wood stoves and discuss how a power outage in extreme cold becomes life-threatening. The debate expands to air particulates, cultural traditions like wood-fired bagels, and government risk tradeoffs.
- •Extreme cold as a driver of ‘Plan B’ thinking
- •Montreal’s strict wood-burning regulations and why they worry people
- •Fireplaces as emergency infrastructure vs. pollution concerns
- •Wood fire’s cultural role (bagels, restaurants, barbecue)
- •Anecdotes about polar vortexes and winter damage
- 6:13 – 7:53
Bourdain ice-fishing episode: staged ‘no fish’ becomes culinary theater
Joe recalls the Anthony Bourdain ice-fishing episode with the tiny hut. David explains the show’s reality: they rarely caught fish, so they went ‘Joe Beef crazy’ bringing classic cookbooks, spirits, cigars, and a historic menu. The story becomes a tribute to Bourdain’s openness and how he ‘tapped out’ from a great day of indulgence.
- •Why the ice-fishing episode worked despite no fish being caught
- •Creating a full old-school menu in a cramped shack
- •Rare spirits and old Chartreuse as part of the experience
- •Bourdain’s on-camera persona relaxing into the moment
- •Food as hospitality + mischief rather than pure technique
- 7:53 – 10:28
Old-school nutrition: organ meats, blood sauces & cheese as digestif/probiotic
From the Bourdain meal, they dive into traditional dishes like hare à la royale and the logic of using blood and organs. They connect classic eating patterns with modern nutrition ideas: satiety from fat, probiotics from raw cheeses, and why local fermentation and dairy may ‘train’ the gut. Joe links it to macro debates about carbs vs fat/protein appetite control.
- •Hare à la royale: truffles, blood-thickened sauce, organ use
- •Cheese cultures and why fat protects probiotics through digestion
- •Cheese as a traditional digestif and satiety tool
- •Why low-fat/bodybuilder diets can undermine fullness cues
- •Modern nutrition ‘discovering’ what tradition already practiced
- 10:28 – 15:14
Taboo proteins: horse meat, cultural history, and America’s narrow meat palette
Joe praises Joe Beef and recalls being served horse for the first time. Fred and David argue taboos are culturally arbitrary and explain Quebec’s broader protein traditions versus many U.S. cities’ limited offerings. Fred gives a historical explanation connecting Anglophone norms to British rule, contrasting with French/Belgian/German horse-eating traditions.
- •Horse as ‘just another four-legged animal’ vs cultural stigma
- •Quebec’s dining culture: kidneys, liver, deer heart tartare, etc.
- •Historical angle: British decree vs French/continental practices
- •Why NYC/Manhattan can be less adventurous than Montreal
- •Ethics vs aesthetics: ‘cute animal’ bias in food choices
- 15:14 – 20:11
Wild game legality & the dark side of foraging: market hunting, hijackings, mushroom wars
They compare regulations: in the U.S. you generally can’t sell hunted meat in restaurants; Newfoundland’s moose permits become an exception story. The conversation widens into market-hunting risks and resource competition, including violent conflicts over mushrooms and high-value shellfish. Morels become a gateway into pricing, scarcity, and cultivation difficulty.
- •Why hunted meat can’t enter restaurants (U.S.) and what hunters can do personally
- •Newfoundland moose permits and ‘Days Inn moose curry’ oddity
- •Market hunting history and conservation concerns
- •Foraging conflict: mushroom patch territorial fights and theft
- •Morel mushroom pricing, rarity, and why cultivation is hard
- 20:11 – 22:53
Overfishing realities: bluefin tuna, bycatch, whaling loopholes & choosing sustainable seafood
Morels lead to an argument about using price and regulation to control scarce foods like bluefin tuna. Joe and the guests criticize industrial fishing methods and ‘bycatch’ as a euphemism, then draw a parallel to Japanese ‘research’ whaling loopholes. Fred explains their restaurant’s push toward oysters, clams, and other sustainable seafood, highlighting Florida stone crab as a clever model.
- •Bluefin demand in big cities and why it’s ‘untenable’
- •Industrial nets, poor open-ocean enforcement, and ecological damage
- •‘Bycatch’ as a convenient loophole/label
- •Whaling-as-research workaround and activist monitoring
- •Sustainable picks: oysters, clams, and Florida stone crab claw harvesting
- 22:53 – 29:30
Oysters: New York’s hidden foundation, water filtration, and ‘ocean cupcakes’ ethics
They unpack oyster history via Kurlansky’s work and the idea that Manhattan’s growth was fueled by abundant, free protein. Joe pulls up images and modern restoration efforts like the Billion Oyster Project; they discuss filtration capacity and reef rebuilding using recycled shells. The chapter ends with oysters as an ethical ‘sea vegetable’ argument and jokes about oyster protein powder.
- •Oyster abundance as a driver of early NYC survival and population growth
- •Historic shell mounds and oyster islands
- •Billion Oyster Project and reef restoration mechanics
- •Oyster filtration effects and why restoration oysters aren’t eaten
- •Ethical framing: oysters as ‘ocean cupcakes’/sea vegetable and sustainable protein
- 29:30 – 32:01
Eating insects and the ‘organic means bugs’ reality check
They pivot to alternative proteins like crickets and ants, noting how fine dining sometimes normalizes fringe ingredients (e.g., Noma serving ants). They also address customer complaints about insects in salads and explain why organic produce can include bugs. Joe argues people overreact and that a little imperfection is the cost of avoiding pesticides.
- •Cricket protein normalization vs other insects
- •Noma/Redzepi and ants as a culinary statement
- •Organic produce tradeoffs: fewer pesticides, more bugs
- •Restaurant realities: volume makes perfect inspection impossible
- •Cultural squeamishness vs practical food systems
- 32:01 – 39:04
Live frog market shock → processing ethics and ‘cook with what the animal would eat’
A Chinatown market story about buckets of live bullfrogs turns into a graphic curiosity about how frogs are processed and what happens to the ‘rest’ of the animal. They then step back into culinary philosophy: pairing ingredients with an animal’s natural environment (‘what would it eat / what grows around it’) and why some modern pairings feel ‘academically incorrect.’ Joe counters with guilty pleasures like pineapple-and-anchovy pizza.
- •Live frog market scene and discomfort with waste/processing
- •Watching frog processing and reframing the ‘whole animal’ idea
- •Soup/broth uses and bones-in preparations
- •Ingredient pairing principle: ‘cook with what grows around it’
- •Debate: tradition/terroir logic vs delicious but ‘wrong’ combinations
- 39:04 – 44:28
Cooking wild game well: adding fat, border rules, sturgeon/caviar laws & Mohawk fishing
They discuss why hunters often mishandle lean wild meat and share classic French techniques like larding (threading fat) and adding collagen-rich parts. Joe asks about bringing hunted meat across borders, and they explain strict restaurant rules around wild game and sturgeon/caviar enforcement in Quebec. The conversation includes Indigenous fishing rights and vivid sturgeon imagery as a ‘dinosaur’ fish near downtown Montreal.
- •Lean wild meat challenges and classic fat/collagen solutions
- •Lardoire technique for threading fat into loins/backstraps
- •Border/restaurant legality: wild game is high risk for owners
- •Sturgeon/caviar enforcement: severe penalties and why quotas exist
- •Mohawk/Iroquois traditional fishing, including eggs used in soups
- 44:28 – 1:02:00
Sturgeon & eels as ‘weird fish’: meat-like cooking, McNugget molds, and horror stories
They describe sturgeon as better treated like meat (bacon, mushroom, red wine) and argue for smaller, more sustainable portions. Then they swing into bizarre restaurant humor—sturgeon/eel ‘McNuggets’—and the nightmare logistics of handling eels, including cooking vapors and escape stories. The tone blends culinary technique, sustainability, and visceral disgust.
- •Sturgeon taste/texture comparisons (veal-like) and best cooking approaches
- •Sustainability: smaller protein portions vs giant fish slabs
- •Sturgeon/eel ‘McNuggets’ concept as playful menu subversion
- •Eel handling: odor, allergenic vapors, and live storage horror
- •Eel migration lore (Sargasso Sea) and aquaculture attempts
- 1:02:00 – 1:09:28
Flavor extremes: rotten pheasant, fermented foods, funky wines, and cultural taste preferences
They explain aging game (‘faisandage’) and the edge where it becomes ‘death warmed over,’ then connect it to why some cultures prize ammonia/funk in fermented foods. Fred’s ‘Pulse’ candy example and the Japan market for volatile acidity/Brett wines show how ‘flaws’ become delicacies. The broader point: taste is trained, social, and sometimes competitive posturing.
- •Faisandage: hanging pheasants until ‘ready’ and why people pursue intensity
- •Fermented shark/cape wing references and the ammonia threshold
- •Pulse candy: sulfur/black salt mango flavor as cultural hit
- •Natural wine ‘flaws’ (VA, Brett) and Japan’s preference for funk
- •Taste as culture, conditioning, and sometimes a status contest
- 1:09:28 – 1:13:28
Chefs, fighters, and feeding performance: UFC relationships and weigh-in meals
They discuss their connection to MMA, including sponsoring fighters before the Reebok era and cooking post-weigh-in meals. Their point is practical: nutrition plans fail if food is unpalatable, and good cooking helps athletes comply while reducing stress. The dynamic becomes hospitality-as-performance support, not just ‘meal prep.’
- •Early UFC sponsorships and personal ties (Olivier Aubin-Mercier, GSP)
- •Cooking in hotel suites around weight cuts and recovery meals
- •Why delicious execution matters more than perfect macros on paper
- •Creating a calm ‘dining with friends’ environment during fight week
- •Critique of old fight-week room service habits (pizza/rigatoni)
- 1:13:28 – 1:28:49
Restaurant life beyond the stove: relationships, maintenance, sobriety, and the industry’s drinking trap
They zoom out on what running restaurants really means: staff care, building maintenance, plumbing/electrical emergencies, and the emotional bonds formed in nightly ‘battle’ service. This becomes a bridge into alcohol culture in kitchens—reward, coping mechanism, and constant proximity as sellers of a ‘liquid drug.’ Fred details hitting a breaking point, rehab, and the shift to sobriety and clarity (the ‘16 weeks’ milestone).
- •Restaurant as nightly high-stress choreography and deep team relationships
- •Owners as de facto plumbers/electricians/refrigeration techs and counselors
- •Why chef culture romanticizes partying and why it’s unsustainable
- •Fred’s intervention, rehab education, and early sobriety timeline
- •Sobriety benefits: anxiety drop, presence, and recognizing addictive patterns
- 1:28:49 – 2:41:10
Modern health & systems critique: exercise as anxiety medicine, restrictive diets, and fixing school food/activity
Joe connects exercise volume to reduced anxiety and contrasts it with sedentary modern life. They discuss restriction-based diets (carnivore, gluten-free) as often working via exclusion and calorie reduction, while warning about ideological food tribes. The conversation expands into structural problems: back health, ergonomics, and why school design, lunches, and daily movement need a complete rethink to support kids’ bodies and communities.
- •Sober October + extreme fitness challenge and ‘endorphin drug’ effect
- •Carnivore/gluten-free as exclusion strategies; difficulty of nutrition studies
- •Back pain: decompression, strengthening, yoga, and resisting surgery-first thinking
- •Schools as ‘casts’: too much sitting, too little movement, poor nutrition education
- •Universal school meals to avoid stigma and build community around food
