Joe Rogan Experience #1605 - Mark Smith

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music plays) Mark, welcome.

Mark Smith 0:16 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Thanks for doing this, man. Appreciate it.

Mark Smith 0:17 Thank you. Dream to be here.

Joe Rogan 0:18 You have, first of all, a- as a referee, you have one of the most difficult jobs in MMA, and you're one of the rarest guys 'cause no one complains about you. Do you know that? Like, I have heard zero complaints about you. Maybe there's somebody out there that's complained. I have never heard it, which is crazy.

Mark Smith 0:34 Mm-hmm. It's, it's weird. You want your name to be called one time.

Joe Rogan 0:40 (laughs)

Mark Smith 0:40 And that's when the announcer says-

Joe Rogan 0:41 That's it.

Mark Smith 0:41 ... "Referee in this fight is such-and-such." You don't any complaints other than that, because we know this is a lifetime opportunity for these fighters. We don't wanna do anything negatively to affect them, so that's a good thing.

Joe Rogan 0:51 Well, it's such a difficult job, because in- in pul- you have an impulse, like y- you don't know when to stop. Like, is it now? Is he okay? Is he gonna be okay? Like, sometimes fights get stopped early and it is the worst feeling-

Mark Smith 1:03 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:04 ... when a guy is kinda rocked, but then someone stops the fight and then the guy complains-

Mark Smith 1:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:09 ... and then i- the crowd's like, "Boo," and you're like, "Shit."

Mark Smith 1:13 It's, you know, it's weird, 'cause our philosophy in, you know, I primarily work with two of the commissions, Nevada State Athletic Commission and California, two of the top commissions in the world. You don't want the fight to go too long to risk-

Joe Rogan 1:25 Right.

Mark Smith 1:25 ... long-term injury for the fighters, so there's that philosophy of maybe stopping a fight one punch too early versus one punch too late. Your goal is to stop it right on time. But it takes a lot of hard work to get to that point. Depending upon the history of the fighter, you know, their ability to come back and, you know, you gotta make that subjective determination right away, when is a time to stop that fight? But, man, it's the worst feeling in the world if you think you get to that point, you let it go too long. Or if you mistakenly stop it too early, oh, God, it's a hard feeling. And trust me-

Joe Rogan 1:50 It's such a difficult job. It's so much harder than anything other than fighting.

Mark Smith 1:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:55 Like, everybody else's j- like, judging is kinda hard-

Mark Smith 1:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:58 ... but they kinda, they can hide. Like, you're on TV.

Mark Smith 2:01 That's right.

Joe Rogan 2:01 You know, you're right there. If, if it happens and if it's you that makes a bad call, like, all the, the hate comes your way.

Mark Smith 2:08 And, you know, you gotta kinda stay away from, you know, some of the social media criticism 'cause you got someone there that-

Joe Rogan 2:13 Yeah.

Mark Smith 2:13 ... may not understand the detail, you know, specifics of how we officiate and what we do, and you're gonna have critics. I tell everybody going into a fight, "Fans are gonna hate you or love you. Half the fans are counting for a fighter in the red corner, half are counting for fighters in the blue corner. And depending upon the call you make-"

Joe Rogan 2:29 For sure.

Mark Smith 2:29 "... it may be the referee's fault, it may be the judge's fault, but your goal is to go in there and being as objective as possible, and fighter safety is always number one."

Joe Rogan 2:36 Yeah, and some guys just wanna see people get beaten almost to death. They, they, they don't wanna, to be stopped. Even if the guy is covering up and in a turtle, they think they should st- they shouldn't stop the fight.

Mark Smith 2:48 If you stop a fight-

Joe Rogan 2:49 It's... Yeah.

Mark Smith 2:49 ... while somebody is standing up-

Joe Rogan 2:51 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 2:51 ... you're just gonna get crucified for that, so.

Joe Rogan 2:53 Well, there was a call, like with Max, uh, Holloway and Calvin Katter, there was a lot of people thought you could've stopped that fight standing up.

Mark Smith 3:01 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 3:01 But Herb was like, "Not quite," and I think it was the right call.

Mark Smith 3:05 I agree.

Joe Rogan 3:05 I think he gave them r- but it was touch and go. You could tell he was looking at Calvin very carefully.

Mark Smith 3:11 Mm-hmm. And there's that, you know, you obviously go to, there's no one better than John McCarthy and Herb Dean.

Joe Rogan 3:16 Right.

Mark Smith 3:16 Been doing this, they've been doing this-

Joe Rogan 3:16 Right.

Mark Smith 3:17 ... for so long.

Joe Rogan 3:17 That's the gold standard.

Mark Smith 3:18 So their eye of what they're looking at-

Joe Rogan 3:20 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 3:20 ... and it also, it comes down to intelligent defense.

Joe Rogan 3:23 Yeah.

Mark Smith 3:23 And not, that's the, not just holding your hands up, but that needs to translate into doing something offensive. And if you could tell that a guy is listening to your verbal commands and he's doing something to fight back, as long as he's showing some good cognitive skills and showing something offensive where he's not looking at long-term injury, there's a possibility of him letting that fight go. But, man, if it's starting to stem on a ten-seven round where the fighter's just getting destroyed-

Joe Rogan 3:45 Yeah.

Mark Smith 3:45 ... and they're gonna get hurt, now it's our responsibility to step in with fighter safety.

Joe Rogan 3:48 Yeah, it's, i- i- it's a v- like I said, it's a very difficult job, but you do it well. You do it excellent.

Mark Smith 3:54 I try.

Joe Rogan 3:54 You're one of the best. And what's crazy is, I got a text from Pete Sbrat-

Mark Smith 3:58 Yes.

Joe Rogan 3:58 ... the OG.

Mark Smith 3:59 That's my buddy.

Joe Rogan 3:59 And S- Pete Sbrat let me know about your background. Like, I did not know you were a fighter pilot.

Mark Smith 4:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:06 I did not know that you... Did you work at Area 51?

Mark Smith 4:10 I cannot confirm or deny that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:12 Whoa.

Mark Smith 4:13 Oh, I worked at Nellis Air Force Base, which is-

Joe Rogan 4:15 Okay.

Mark Smith 4:15 ... in that general vicinity.

Joe Rogan 4:17 So, so you can't talk about, like, experimental shit or anything like that?

Mark Smith 4:21 You know what I did? The first thing I did at, at Nellis was when I flew in the Thunderbirds.

Joe Rogan 4:25 Right.

Mark Smith 4:25 And then I went away for a couple assignments and then when I came back, I was an aggressor. And if you remember in the movie Top Gun, you know, Viper and all those guys were in the camouflage planes. They acted as the enemy forces and trained blue forces-

Joe Rogan 4:36 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 4:36 ... before they go out to combat. That's what I did the second time around, so the Nellis ranges are probably up in that general vicinity. But as far as being someone that worked at that, no, I worked at Nellis Air Force Base.

Joe Rogan 4:47 Oh, okay.

Mark Smith 4:48 We flew in that-

Joe Rogan 4:48 Okay. Okay.

Mark Smith 4:49 ... in that general area, but-

Joe Rogan 4:50 I don't believe you.

Mark Smith 4:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:50 I think you're lying now. Now I think you're holding back.

Mark Smith 4:53 Did you guys-

Joe Rogan 4:53 Did you feel it, Jamie?

Narrator 4:55 I-

Mark Smith 4:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:55 All of a sudden he's, like, smiling. I don't-

Narrator 4:57 Just listen to the answers to the questions you don't ask.

Mark Smith 4:58 You guys don't want guys in dark suits and shades to come in here and be like, "Uh, Mr. Smith, we need you."

Joe Rogan 5:03 I already talked to those dudes.

Mark Smith 5:04 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:04 They're good guys. They're just trying to protect us from the aliens.

Mark Smith 5:07 You know the crazy thing is, i- in that area when people used to think they would see UFOs and stuff like that, you know there's a book that came out a couple years ago called Red Eagles that explained a lot of that stuff going on and what they thought were UFOs or, you know, transportation planes that were landing at some of the bases and stuff up there.

Joe Rogan 5:23 Yeah, a lot of people see wacky shit.

Mark Smith 5:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:25 The first time I ever saw a stealth bomber, I was, uh, it, I was filming Fear Factor in, um, Palmdale.

Mark Smith 5:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:33 Which is, uh, near, was it Edwards?

Mark Smith 5:35 Out- right by Edwards, yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:36 Yeah, and I saw a stealth bomber flying overhead and I swear to God I thought it was Darth Vader. When you see one of those things in real life, you would think, especially if you didn't know-

Mark Smith 5:46 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:47 ... that the United States was developing one of those, like when they were first developing them and flying them before they l- made it public.

Mark Smith 5:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:54 That thing looks like it's from another world.

Mark Smith 5:56 So, (laughs) it's funny you say that. So when I was on Thunderbirds, we'd do incentive rides for, like, media personalities and other people, and I was out at our training area, which is over at Death Valley.... and we're talking to the Navy controllers, and they come over and say, you know... I was Thunderbird 2. "TBird Two, I need you to fly straight and level for five minutes. There's going to be an aircraft off your nose. I need you to, you know, diverge to the right and stay away from it." And I'm like, "What in the world is this?" So I threw my radar out there, which should snag anything out there, and I'm getting these intermittent hits. And I go, "I don't see anything on the radar." Next thing you know, I look up and I go, "What the shit is that?"

Guest 6:29 (laughs)

Mark Smith 6:29 And I look up and it's a B-2 that has, you know, an escort plane right next to it that comes right next to it. And I looked at it for the first time and I go... (laughs) There's, there are aliens out here.

Guest 6:38 Yeah.

Mark Smith 6:38 This is some kind of spaceship.

Guest 6:39 Look at that thing.

Mark Smith 6:40 Yeah.

Guest 6:40 I mean, look at that. That does not look like it's from here.

Mark Smith 6:43 Yep.

Guest 6:44 That absolutely looks like it's from another world.

Mark Smith 6:46 Yeah.

Guest 6:47 Like, all those... When people talk about seeing those triangular spacecrafts in the sky. I mean, maybe some of them are from another planet. (knocks table)

Mark Smith 6:55 Yeah. Yeah, so if you've never seen one of those, and, like, for me as a pilot perspective, I'd never seen anything like that. You know, you hear about the F-117 from the Gulf War, and then you see this big thing coming towards you.

Guest 7:05 And that's what everybody always reports too, a triangular object with, like, three- a light on each corner. I mean, that is a stealth bomber.

Mark Smith 7:11 Yep.

Guest 7:12 That's a crazy looking aircraft, man.

Mark Smith 7:14 Yeah, so I had somebody in my backseat that was like, "Oh my God-

Guest 7:16 (laughs)

Mark Smith 7:16 ... What is that? What is that thing coming by?" And-

Guest 7:18 I mean, if we thought that we were being invaded and then you saw things like that flying overhead, that, that is what I would imagine they would be flying-

Mark Smith 7:25 Yeah.

Guest 7:25 ... if they came from another planet.

Mark Smith 7:26 That thing is out at Whiteman Air Force Base. You know, you see it flying out there all the time. So there are folks there in the local area that'll see it taking off and-

Guest 7:32 Are there some new ones that they haven't released yet?

Mark Smith 7:34 I don't know. So I retired about eight years ago.

Guest 7:37 Right.

Mark Smith 7:37 I heard a crazy story one day that someone was hunting up in Montana, and saw something similar to that that he had never seen before that, like, came out of the ground in, like, a vertical type thing, and then took off. Which, you know, the F-35 and planes like that will take off, some of them, in a vertical stance and then go forward. But to see something that size and that scale do something like that, phew-

Guest 7:58 Maybe.

Mark Smith 7:58 ... it kinda makes me wish I was still in the military.

Guest 8:00 Just so you could be in the know?

Mark Smith 8:02 That's right.

Guest 8:03 What, so, uh, which one can do that and take off in the F-35?

Mark Smith 8:07 The F-35? Yeah.

Guest 8:07 Yeah, so there's a couple variants.

Mark Smith 8:08 Uh, with wings that look like-

Guest 8:09 Um, so the Air Force one does traditional rolling takeoff, but the Marine one, you know, it's almost like a Harrier. So the, the back engine will rotate, so it'll take off-

Mark Smith 8:17 Wow.

Guest 8:17 ... vertical. And then as it's going forward, the engine will rotate back the other way to give it forward propulsion. But man-

Mark Smith 8:23 Wow.

Guest 8:23 ... just technology-wise, the stuff that we're flying now... So I will tell you this. The first time I fought on the range against the F-22 Raptor, and I've fought against everything in the world. So out at Nellis with the aggressors, everybody comes there to train, to get prepared for combat. There's no better plane in the world than the F-22. When that thing passed me and some of the stuff that I saw it could do, I go, "There's no better plane in the world." So as far as air superiority, F-22 is at the top of the food chain. What is the difference? It's, uh, a little bit-

Mark Smith 8:50 F-22 is primarily air superiority. You know, so, like, air-to-air dogfighting, long-range, short-range missiles. Uh, F-35 is, you know, command and control platform. It still has weapons on it. It can drop bombs, shoot missiles, et cetera, but the role is a little bit different. So yeah, that's the F-22. You go to an air show and see that thing, you're like, "Is that a plane or a helicopter?" With some of the stuff that it does. But fighting against that, you know, as a fighter pilot, your average fighter pilot is the cockiest person that you will ever meet in the world, you know?

Guest 9:15 Just like Top Gun, like the movie.

Mark Smith 9:16 Exactly. We're-

Guest 9:17 That's all real.

Mark Smith 9:17 We're better than everybody.

Guest 9:19 (laughs)

Mark Smith 9:19 That's our philosophy. But it's very humbling.

Guest 9:21 You kind of have to have that philosophy, right?

Mark Smith 9:22 Yeah. I mean, look at that.

Guest 9:23 Look at that. That's insane.

Mark Smith 9:25 (laughs)

Guest 9:25 Oh my God, that's insane. It just shoots straight up in the sky.

Mark Smith 9:29 Yep.

Guest 9:30 Oh my God. I mean, it doesn't even look like a real s- a real plane.

Mark Smith 9:34 That, that is a mean machine right there. So I got friends that fly that plane and, you know, you see it. A, A, it's designed in combat. You know, the United States is still gonna be at the top of the food chain as far as the, the personnel that we have, the men and women that fly these airplanes and then the equipment that we're flying. You're not gonna find anything to match it.

Guest 9:52 That's incredible, that turn that it just made-

Mark Smith 9:53 Yep.

Guest 9:54 ... in the sky. So is that what the, the, the maneuverability of it? Is that what's superior? Well, look at the... What the fuck?

Mark Smith 10:00 (laughs)

Guest 10:00 Why does it do that? That's insane.

Mark Smith 10:02 So thrust vectoring on the back, you know, plus the flight controls. I mean, look, he just flat plated that and-

Guest 10:07 Wow.

Mark Smith 10:08 ... the amount of thrust that's coming out of it. So, you know, internal avionics, the stealth capability, and the maneuverability of it, tr- nothing in the world is gonna beat that.

Guest 10:16 But they, they can't fly very long, right?

Mark Smith 10:19 You know, uh, it's a, it's a total package. So whenever you go to combat or something, you're gonna have tanker support out there, so you're gonna meet a, you know, a air refueler up at 20,000 feet and get gas. And that thing can carry external fuel tanks. Uh, but the goal is to be able to plan a mission to be able to go in, escort, have guys drop your bombs or do whatever, and get back out with tanker support. You know, there's always that philosophy, without the gas, you know, no one is gonna go. So like when I was in Iraq and stuff, we'd take off in Saudi Arabia, fly an hour up, meet a tanker, go fly a five-hour mission, come back to the tanker, get more gas, go out and fly for another couple hours, and then go back to the base.

Guest 10:56 How long can that fly for?

Mark Smith 10:58 You know, I don't know. It obviously depends on how hard you got the gas pedal down.

Guest 11:01 Right. Right.

Mark Smith 11:02 You know? I, I think, you know, the F-16, if we stayed in full afterburner for, you know, five minutes, you'd probably run outta gas.

Guest 11:09 Five minutes?

Mark Smith 11:10 Y- Or it could be quicker than that.

Guest 11:12 Psh.

Mark Smith 11:12 Now, the goal is endurance. You obviously wanna be able to stay out there to maintain the-

Guest 11:16 Yeah.

Mark Smith 11:16 ... you know, go the length of your mission. Um, but you look at the length of the mission and fuel capacity, and the goal is obviously to have somebody there as a backup 'cause you never wanna be out there by yourself. You always wanna have that support, you know. So you may have guys that are sitting back here in a, a cap waiting for their turn to come in. You run outta gas up front, now you swap out, those guys come back in, so total protection.

Guest 11:38 So until they come up with something superior to internal combustion engines, we're always gonna be limited by the amount of fuel that they can carry-

Mark Smith 11:45 Exactly.

Guest 11:46 ... just because of the weight, right?

Mark Smith 11:47 So as far as endurance, yes. Now, capabilities of the plane, most fighter planes have a G capability of nine Gs, and that's, you know, times a force of gravity.

Guest 11:57 Do you wear a G-suit when you're in the air?

Mark Smith 11:58 We did wear a G-suit. So in a fourth generation, like a F-15, F-16 is a fourth-generation fighter, we wore G-suits on the abdomen and down on the legs. And basically what that does, as you pull Gs, you're going against gravity and blood starts to drain from your brain down into your lower extremities. So the G-suit is just a capability to help counter it. It's really a tightening, restriction of your muscles, starting with your calves, hamstrings, buttocks, all the way up. And we do the-... the-

Joe Rogan 12:25 Hooking?

Mark Smith 12:25 Yeah, the, the hook.

Joe Rogan 12:26 Hoot. Hoot. Hoot.

Mark Smith 12:27 You know, you hook-

Joe Rogan 12:27 Yeah.

Mark Smith 12:27 ... and that's really to hold the oxygen in. And what that does is lock everything down to hopefully hold the blood up in your brain as long as possible.

Joe Rogan 12:35 I told you I flew with the Blue Angels once.

Mark Smith 12:37 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:37 And when I did that, I, I got to seven and a half Gs-

Mark Smith 12:40 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 12:41 ... before I couldn't take it anymore.

Mark Smith 12:42 So, did you start to gray out or did it start to-

Joe Rogan 12:44 Yeah. Well, I started-

Mark Smith 12:44 ... tunnel vision?

Joe Rogan 12:45 Yeah, it was like an elevator door was closing.

Mark Smith 12:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:47 And, you know, I'm doing that hoot, hoot, hoot, and trying to-

Mark Smith 12:50 So, it's weird because people think it's, you know, two Gs would be one greater than one, three Gs is one greater than two, but when you start to get above five, it's not a plus one, it's exponential.

Joe Rogan 13:04 Oh.

Mark Smith 13:04 So, when you start to get to seven-

Joe Rogan 13:06 So, six is 10?

Mark Smith 13:07 Uh, yeah. That's what it feels like.

Joe Rogan 13:08 Yeah.

Mark Smith 13:09 And, and you can't explain how it feels, but nine Gs is absolutely... I mean, you get back home that night and from the straining and everything, you know, measles, what it looks like little... We call them Jeasles, where your blood vessels-

Joe Rogan 13:21 (laughs)

Mark Smith 13:21 ... will actually start to pop.

Joe Rogan 13:23 Oh, wow.

Mark Smith 13:23 And you get these little specs on from straining so hard that you're popping blood vessels. But the goal is obviously not to fall aslo- we call it fall-asleep-in-airplane, g, uh, g-loss-

Joe Rogan 13:32 Yes.

Mark Smith 13:32 ... of consciousness. Uh, g-loc is what it's called. If you do that and you're in the air, it may take you 30 seconds to a minute to be able to come back to any kind of capacity.

Joe Rogan 13:41 Oof.

Mark Smith 13:41 And if that happens, you know-

Joe Rogan 13:42 You dead.

Mark Smith 13:42 ... majority of the time it's going to be catastrophic.

Joe Rogan 13:44 I, uh, made it through that and then I blacked out on the way back.

Mark Smith 13:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:48 'Cause I didn't hook on the way back 'cause I thought I w- I got cocky. I thought, "We're good," and we made a hard turn and I think I blacked out at, like, five.

Mark Smith 13:55 Uh-huh.

Joe Rogan 13:56 Like four and a half or five. It wasn't even that much compared to seven and a half.

Mark Smith 13:59 Yeah. If you're not ready at four, then, you know, people are like, "Oh, I can do Gs."

Joe Rogan 14:02 Yeah.

Mark Smith 14:02 You get on a rollercoaster, that's like a half a G or one G.

Joe Rogan 14:05 I blacked out-

Mark Smith 14:05 And they're sticking that exponentially.

Joe Rogan 14:06 ... and I threw up. It was double embarrassing.

Mark Smith 14:08 Did they make you wear a G-suit?

Joe Rogan 14:09 No. No G-suit.

Mark Smith 14:10 See, the reason they don't wear a G-suit is because in close formation, if you wear a G-suit, the G-suit is gonna fill with air to help with that restriction on your legs.

Joe Rogan 14:20 Mm.

Mark Smith 14:21 And in the F18 they have a center control stick and they rest their arm on-

Joe Rogan 14:25 There it is.

Mark Smith 14:26 ... their right leg. And if that G-suit is moving up and down, it's gonna move your control stick.

Joe Rogan 14:31 Oh, I see.

Mark Smith 14:32 So the F16 has a side stick controller where it doesn't touch your leg at all. I mean, it's like, you'll recline back in the seat and the side stick controller. So, we can wear a G-suit so it won't affect precision, you know, moving your arm back and forth.

Joe Rogan 14:43 Is there any other technology that they've invented to deal with gravity? Like, the, just the sheer force of the acceleration?

Mark Smith 14:49 So, not just a G-suit, uh, but you will have, uh, induced pressure breathing. You know, so you wear a specific kind of oxygen mask and that's gonna force air into your system. 'Cause the one thing you would hate to do is just hold your breath. It's like a three-second count.

Joe Rogan 15:02 Yeah.

Mark Smith 15:02 You know, you do that hook and then it's a three-second count, exhale, inhale right quick. And as part as that pressure breathing, when you exhale and open your mouth, it's gonna force air back in with that pressure-breathing system.

Joe Rogan 15:12 Mm.

Mark Smith 15:13 So, with the two of those together, and then we combine it with, you gotta be in shape. You know, you gotta lift weights, you gotta have some kind of cardio conditioning to be able to last. 'Cause it's one thing to be strong enough to hold that, you know, G position, but then you do a 45-minute, you know, dogfighting mission, your body's gonna get tired. So, you gotta be able to sustain that the entire time. So, most fighter pilots are gonna lift weights, they're gonna do, you know, extreme cardio exercises to be able to sustain. But anything else other than that, it was kinda weird. Back in the day it would be, go drink a Coke and a bag of Doritos and get that sugar rush from that 45-minute flight-

Joe Rogan 15:47 (laughs)

Mark Smith 15:47 ... and be able to sustain through it, but-

Joe Rogan 15:48 Really?

Mark Smith 15:48 ... it's more of a health conscious, uh, thing now. You know, the total package, staying in shape.

Joe Rogan 15:52 I guess they're just smarter now about it.

Mark Smith 15:54 Probably a lot.

Joe Rogan 15:54 The Blue Angel guy that I flew with was a tank. Man, that dude was swole. He was like Yoel Romero. He was jacked.

Mark Smith 16:00 You know, that was philosophy 'cause when I was on the team, I'm 6'1", I probably weighed 230, 235 on the team.

Joe Rogan 16:05 That's large for a fighter pilot, right?

Mark Smith 16:07 The, the cockpit was extremely tight.

Joe Rogan 16:09 Usually they're smaller guys because it... Is that a thing with the, the, the gravity? It's easier to sustain gravity?

Mark Smith 16:15 No. It, it is a... it's a height limitation, so you can't be so tall where your head is up against the top of the canopy.

Joe Rogan 16:21 Oh, that's all it is?

Mark Smith 16:22 But you also can't be that short where you can't see over the dashboard.

Joe Rogan 16:24 Mm.

Mark Smith 16:24 But there's a weight limitation too. You know, you can't be below a minimum weight because if you ever had to eject and y- you're below, let's say, 125 pounds, that parachute is gonna drag you. You won't be able to stop.

Joe Rogan 16:34 Oh.

Mark Smith 16:35 Or if you're above, you know, whatever the weight is, 250, 265, you're gonna come down on that parachute pretty hard and you're probably gonna get hurt.

Joe Rogan 16:41 Yeah, they can't make custom shit for you. (laughs)

Mark Smith 16:44 No. No, and it's the same basic fighter.

Joe Rogan 16:46 Yeah.

Mark Smith 16:46 So, the Thunderbirds, it's a f- you know, it's a frontline fighter that they take some of... They take the gun out and they put a smoke barrel in it. But it's the same basic avionics, the same basic controls, and it's just painted red, white, and blue.

Joe Rogan 16:57 Mm.

Mark Smith 16:57 You know, all the professionals that are the maintenance guys for the Thunderbirds, the best in the world, the finest in the world, and I had four of the finest when I was on the team, they take them off of active duty lines and bring them Nellis Air Force Base and do all the stuff on the planes, but...

Joe Rogan 17:10 There was... There hasn't been a real horrible air show collision in a long time. But the last one I... I remember w- there was one in 1988 when I first started doing comedy, I remember watching it on TV, and it was, uh, I think it was in Italy.

Mark Smith 17:26 Yeah. So, we try to cover for that. You will notice there's never any energy coming towards the crowd. That's the first thing, because those air shows when those happened, the planes crashed and they went into the crowd-

Joe Rogan 17:37 Yeah.

Mark Smith 17:37 ... which is catastrophic. Catastrophic in the accident in, in the same sense, but then if you go into the crowd, it's just horrific. So, there's never any energy coming towards the crowd. So, if we hit each other, you'd go into the crowd. Now, on the Thunderbirds, we have trim, so the plane is trimmed to fly level, but like in the Diamond where I was, we would fly full nose-down trim. So, I'm flying there, for some reason I'm passing-

Joe Rogan 17:58 What does that mean, full nose-down trim?

Mark Smith 17:59 So, at, at level trim, the plane, I could take my hands off it, it's gonna fly straight and level.

Joe Rogan 18:04 Okay.

Mark Smith 18:05 Full nose-down trim, I have to hold back pressure the entire flight. It's about 30 pounds of back pressure the entire flight. So, it's like doing a bicep curl for 30 minutes. And if I were to pass out with that full nose-down trim, instead of possibly bumping into one of the other planes and making it more catastrophic, my plane is gonna go straight down into the ground and it'll be at a minimal loss.... so, you know, you'll see when guys and gals apply for the team, they'll put them through strength tests. They'll sit there on a, you know, a shoulder pull machine and they'll have to hold this 25 to 30 pounds in this little range like this for 15, 20 minutes. They have to sit there and hold that like that. And it shows-

Joe Rogan 18:41 Are there women that can do that?

Mark Smith 18:42 Yeah. So the Thunderbirds have had five females on the team. Uh, and I was on the team that selected the first female Thunderbird.

Joe Rogan 18:48 Do they all look like Cris Cyborg?

Mark Smith 18:49 Uh, there are variations that are gonna be on there.

Joe Rogan 18:52 (laughs)

Mark Smith 18:52 We selected-

Joe Rogan 18:52 They have to be strong as fuck though, right?

Mark Smith 18:54 You, you gotta be. And I mean, that's the, that's the, you know, the standard for all fighter pilots. Nicole, Fifi is her call sign, Malachowski, was the first, uh, Air Force female Thunderbird and she was outstanding. You know, she was an F15 Strike Eagle pilot prior to that, so she was a combat pilot prior to getting there.

Joe Rogan 19:08 Wow.

Mark Smith 19:08 And she had, she had an amazing tour on the team. A good friend of mine, you know, gone through some great things. She worked at the White House a couple years after I worked there.

Joe Rogan 19:15 Probably more difficult for someone like that to train for that, right? Like, what kind of weight training does she have to do to prepare for-

Mark Smith 19:23 I, everybody-

Joe Rogan 19:23 ... that kind of physical strength?

Mark Smith 19:23 ... does their own program. You know, so-

Joe Rogan 19:25 Oh, so there's no, like, program that's assigned by-

Mark Smith 19:29 You do have to do a Air Force fitness test, which is, you know, so they do waist circumference and then you have to do sit-ups, pushups, and a mile-and-a-half run. You do have to-

Joe Rogan 19:38 What's a weight circumference?

Mark Smith 19:39 Waist? Like-

Joe Rogan 19:40 Waist. Oh.

Mark Smith 19:40 You know, I can't be a, I can't have a size 45 waist and-

Joe Rogan 19:43 Right, you can't be fat. Yeah.

Mark Smith 19:44 And it, it's really, um, you know, a combination of standards that they do for that. Uh, you have to do that and get scoring on it, and based upon your age, there are minimum numbers that you have to get.

Joe Rogan 19:54 Mm.

Mark Smith 19:55 But obviously if you're someone that's in shape and you work out regularly, like if you go out to Las Vegas and go to the base, their gym out there looks like one of the best gyms that you've ever seen in the world.

Joe Rogan 20:04 Like the UFC performances too.

Mark Smith 20:05 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 20:05 Like that kind of stuff.

Mark Smith 20:06 Yeah, so you'll have that-

Joe Rogan 20:07 Yeah.

Mark Smith 20:07 ... kinda high level stuff. And everyone is encouraged, and it can be to the point that if you don't pass that fitness test, and that's not just pilots, that's everyone across the board, you don't pass that fitness test, you get a- another opportunity to do it. If it gets to the point where you can't pass it, they'll say, "So long."

Joe Rogan 20:21 Mm.

Mark Smith 20:21 You don't meet the standards, you're no longer in the Air Force.

Joe Rogan 20:23 I would imagine that has to be that way.

Mark Smith 20:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:25 I mean, y- you're flying... How much does one of those cost? Like, like, the F22, how much is that?

Mark Smith 20:30 That's, I don't know the exact cost of that, but like, when I was on the team, those F16s are, you know, 30, $40 million a piece. So, you know, if something happens to one... You know, if... So I was on the team in 2002 to 2005.

Narrator 20:42 Is that accurate?

Joe Rogan 20:43 Oh my God.

Narrator 20:44 That's like, that's a lot.

Mark Smith 20:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:45 F22 is an estimated, what? 334 million.

Mark Smith 20:49 Yeah. Now that, that cost-

Narrator 20:51 That's where I need to be.

Mark Smith 20:52 ... is based upon how many you buy, obviously you, you buy more of them, the cost per is gonna go down.

Joe Rogan 20:57 How many does anybody have? (laughs)

Mark Smith 20:59 So, uh-

Joe Rogan 21:00 Who's buying these things? I mean, it's obviously-

Mark Smith 21:02 The F22-

Joe Rogan 21:02 ... just the Air Force.

Mark Smith 21:03 Yeah, the F22 is only a United States Air Force platform. Now, the F35 is Navy, Air Force, Marine, and we do have some joint partners in that one.

Joe Rogan 21:13 And-

Mark Smith 21:13 That, that, that plane has been sold around the world as well.

Joe Rogan 21:15 Did we... Yeah, that's what I was gonna get to. They sell those to other countries?

Mark Smith 21:18 The, the F22 they don't.

Joe Rogan 21:19 Good.

Mark Smith 21:20 F35 they do.

Joe Rogan 21:21 (laughs)

Mark Smith 21:21 It may have limited capabilities on it, so it may not have all the bells and whistles that our planes have, but we do have partners in-

Joe Rogan 21:26 Does anyone have something that's similar to an F22 in other countries?

Mark Smith 21:29 Uh, I think Russia has a stealth-ish looking fighter and China has one, but I don't think the capabilities are anywhere near the F22.

Joe Rogan 21:40 See, I would, I would imagine that there's gotta be a lot of pressure on them to design something that's competitive with that.

Mark Smith 21:45 It, it may look good on the outside-

Joe Rogan 21:48 Mm.

Mark Smith 21:48 ... but it comes down to the question of, you know, is it stealth, and what kind of capabilities that it has. We- we've never had a, uh, a war or any kind of combat where those types of planes have fought against each other. You know, there hadn't been a shooting war really, you know, in a number of years since Iraq and, you know, maybe some stuff in Kosovo and like that, but there's, as far as dog fighting, enemy versus enemy in the sky, you haven't had that in a number of years.

Joe Rogan 22:12 What do you think about all this Space Force talk?

Mark Smith 22:15 It's kinda weird because you had those capabilities within the Air Force already-

Joe Rogan 22:21 Yeah.

Mark Smith 22:21 ... and to split it off into a separate force, you're essentially just pulling entities out of branches of service that were already there doing the same thing. And there are a lot of people that, you know, we got some great folks that work, you know, do all the space stuff, you know, working with NASA and international space entities doing all that. But was it necessary? I, I don't quite know. It-

Joe Rogan 22:40 Well, you're on the k- you're in the know, so you have to tell us, 'cause we don't know shit. (laughs)

Mark Smith 22:44 I didn't, I didn't personally think it was necessary. Um, you know, the-

Joe Rogan 22:47 So this is, uh, is the idea that they're preparing for one day when wars are gonna be fought in space? Is that the idea behind it?

Mark Smith 22:55 I don't think it's just wars. You know, it's communication capabilities. So like, when I worked at NASA, we were finishing the space shuttle and it's like, what's gonna be the next generation of going into space? And the goal was eventually to get to Mars. And so my daughter at the time was six, seven years old, and my boss, the NASA administrator, he looked at her, 'cause my daughter wanted to be an astronaut. He's like, "You're the perfect age of someone that's gonna go to Mars." And the goal was to be able to go back to the moon, to build a platform at the moon, so we'd launch and go to the moon, and we'd have a outpost at the moon and then launch from the moon to be able to get to Mars. And then it'd be like-

Joe Rogan 23:32 (laughs)

Mark Smith 23:32 ... you know, it's like a year to get to Mars. Literally a year. Go do your stuff there, and then a year to travel back. Now that has changed a little bit 'cause, you know, you need congressional funding and all that stuff, and there has to be a determination of do we need to go back to the moon?

Joe Rogan 23:47 How much money would it cost to set up a base on the moon?

Mark Smith 23:50 A lot. (laughs) And that's the question.

Joe Rogan 23:51 Oh, God.

Mark Smith 23:52 It's like, you know, priorities as far as financial budget, what we need right now, you got some incredibly smart people that work at NASA and, you know, some of the other international space entities. But I think the truth of it, that came down to, and, you know, you saw those movies, Hidden Figures and, that talked about launching to the moon and stuff.

Joe Rogan 24:10 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 24:10 Some of the knowledge and capability to get to the moon was lost because a lot of these professionals that did all their mathematics and calculations to get us there, they had that stuff up here. They'd go to a chalkboard and they'd write it down and say, "Okay, this math formula, this calculation, this projection, this will get us to the moon." But as they started to age off, guess what? We didn't have that technology written down.So with our capabilities today-

Joe Rogan 24:33 That just seems so ridiculous.

Mark Smith 24:34 It does. With our capabilities today, you would think, "Oh, we... (scoffs) We can go back to the moon today."

Joe Rogan 24:40 My favorite is looking at the, the, the NASA, the room in Houston where they're all smoking cigarettes. They're all l- wearing them nerdy glasses with the ties on. It's just such a window into the past, such a strange time.

Mark Smith 24:52 Th- those rooms are still down there.

Joe Rogan 24:53 Are they really?

Mark Smith 24:53 You know, so I got a chance to, you know, "Failure is not an option," all those discussions. You go down there, that's-

Joe Rogan 24:58 Are they updated or are they in the original form?

Mark Smith 25:00 They still look like in the original form.

Joe Rogan 25:02 Oh, man.

Mark Smith 25:03 Yeah. So NASA's obviously changed a little bit. You know, it was a sad day with the cancellation of the space shuttle, but we had to. That thing was starting to age out.

Joe Rogan 25:10 Yeah.

Mark Smith 25:10 And as we look at the next phase of what's gonna, you know, take us up into space. But working there for a year, I got to go down there and see all that stuff, you know, with the-

Joe Rogan 25:18 Yeah, look at that. Oh, yeah. That- Look at those whack monitors and shit. (laughs) Everything, it seems, it seems so weird-

Mark Smith 25:25 Yep.

Joe Rogan 25:25 ... the way everybody dressed.

Mark Smith 25:26 The, the green computer is, like, in the bottom left down there. All that stuff, it, you know, still looks like that.

Joe Rogan 25:30 I wonder how many of those guys died of cancer 'cause they all smoked. Right? They were all smoking. In the movies they were. I don't... I'm looking for cigarettes in the photos and I don't see any, but. Oh, come on. These guys are smoking. It's a lot of coffee. They just put their cigarettes away before the, before the photos.

Mark Smith 25:42 It's the craziest thing. When I was working down there, I had some friends down there in the space industry, and I was talking to one of my friends down there. And I had on this little band that said, you know, "Failure is not an option."

Joe Rogan 25:52 There you go.

Mark Smith 25:53 And-

Joe Rogan 25:54 They're all smoking there. Yeah, look at... He's got a cigar. Well, that's 'cause they- I think that's, yeah, a celebration. That's when they made it.

Mark Smith 25:58 And the, the, the lady that I was talking to, she worked in one of the space industries, and she's like, "Oh, that's nice. You got my dad's band on." And I go, "What?" (laughs) And she goes, "Yeah, my dad's Gene Kranz. That's... He said that." (laughs) I was like, "Holy cow." "He's over here. You wanna go meet him?" So...

Joe Rogan 26:10 Oh, wow.

Mark Smith 26:11 All those guys, you know-

Joe Rogan 26:12 Tell everybody who that is.

Mark Smith 26:14 So, uh, the... Basically, the philosophical head of, you know, all the launches down there, when we had some of the Apollo missions that were not successful, you know, launches that went off that weren't able to do everything or, you know, not able to get to our destinations, he basically threw down with the NASA philosophy that said, "Failure is not an option."

Joe Rogan 26:32 That's him right there with the vest, right?

Mark Smith 26:33 Yeah. "We're gonna make it to the moon. We're gonna do this." And as you know, it was a, it was a race, race to space against Russia. And we were able to... You know, they had Sputnik that went off first, but we were able to successfully make it to the moon first. And it is weird. A lot of people believe that was in a studio somewhere in... But, man, as you work at NASA and get to see all this stuff, you go, "Nah."

Joe Rogan 26:51 Well, Sputnik might not have been in a studio, but the, the film footage... Have you ever seen the film footage of, uh, Yuri Gagarin? That's his name, right?

Mark Smith 27:00 Uh, yeah. I haven't seen it. Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 27:01 Yeah, it's kind of crazy 'cause the- they faked the footage.

Mark Smith 27:04 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:04 Like, they recreated it.

Mark Smith 27:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:06 'Cause the, the actual thing that he was in, what would you call what the Russians had, the first man in space? What was his, uh... What was the, the, the-

Mark Smith 27:15 Oh, the actual module?

Joe Rogan 27:16 The actual module.

Mark Smith 27:17 Uh-

Joe Rogan 27:17 Do they have a name for it?

Mark Smith 27:18 I don't know. Their one now is called the Soyuz, which, you know, is-

Joe Rogan 27:21 Yes.

Mark Smith 27:21 ... top of the, you know, Roman candle when they shoot you off, but-

Joe Rogan 27:24 Yeah. Well, they recreated it.

Mark Smith 27:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:26 But it's kind of obvious because it's like he looks like he's acting, and there's, like, a light here and a light here-

Mark Smith 27:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:32 ... because, like, the shadows are in different directions. And he's, like, sitting. Like, you could tell it's fake. It's kind of weird. But they had to have footage of it-

Mark Smith 27:39 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:39 ... 'cause just to kind of show that they did it. But then, like, a- you know, actual experts, uh, analyzed this and was like, "This is probably not the real footage-"

Mark Smith 27:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 27:49 "... of the actual module being in space."

Mark Smith 27:52 You know what's weird is everyone depicts Russia and the United States as being so adversarial.

Joe Rogan 27:58 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 27:58 So when the space shuttle ended, to get to the International Space Station, there was one way to do it.

Joe Rogan 28:05 Yeah. (laughs)

Mark Smith 28:05 You had to go to Russia.

Joe Rogan 28:06 Yeah.

Mark Smith 28:07 So we had, you know, "Oh, Russia and United States are going head-to-head." No. If I were an astronaut and were selected to go to the space station, I'd go live in Star City outside of Moscow. And they got, you know, US, Canada, all international forces there. You'd live there and do all of your training. And you'd launch on the Russian Soyuz to be able to get up there. And it's-

Joe Rogan 28:25 That's pretty wild.

Mark Smith 28:26 It, it is wild. So I got to visit. And, you know, people bring their families and stuff over there, and there's a row of, like, 10, 15 townhomes. You live in your one. So it's three stories. Top two stories are yours, you know, kitchen and stuff in the middle, bedrooms up top. And then downstairs, everything is joint. So there's a weight room, there's a game room, there's a TV room, there's a movie room that everybody shares together. But it's at this place called Star City on the outside of Russia.

Joe Rogan 28:49 Have you been?

Mark Smith 28:49 Uh, yeah, I've been there a couple times.

Joe Rogan 28:51 What was it like hanging out with the Russians?

Mark Smith 28:53 Uh, A, the food there is incredible.

Joe Rogan 28:55 Really? What do they eat?

Mark Smith 28:57 Uh, so, like, we would have, you know, like, barbecue meals and... So (laughs) I was told, "You gotta get your system ready because they're gonna toast to every kind of success" that they could think.

Joe Rogan 29:08 Oh, no. (laughs)

Mark Smith 29:10 So... (laughs) And I, I'm not a heavy drinker.

Joe Rogan 29:11 (laughs)

Mark Smith 29:11 So my boss was like, "Oh, you could tip it back, but just don't, you know, don't get drunk. Don't do anything like that." But it was like every two minutes, "Cheers," you know, "to this, to that." And it was like, "God, man, I'm gonna..."

Joe Rogan 29:22 Is it vodka mostly?

Mark Smith 29:23 It was a lot of vodka.

Joe Rogan 29:24 Yeah, vodka is easy to get carried away with.

Mark Smith 29:26 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 29:26 'Cause it doesn't seem like you're drinking much.

Mark Smith 29:28 So here you are just, you know, at their space station thing, their headquarters, and they're celebrating a successful launch. They're celebrating going to stage two, stage three, ev- et cetera. And there was a lot of, you know, celebration, a lot of caviar and stuff like that. But I kind of looked at it like, the base, "Could my kids live here for a year or two?" Now, obviously they're gonna take care of you. The weirdest thing for me, when we'd travel around, you'd have security and stuff with you. But when we went to Russia, because there may be some forces that, you know, are anti-government or other things that you want to deal with, we would have, like, we'd be walking in our group, and there would be Russian soldiers surrounding us, like, in a circle.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Wow.

Mark Smith 30:07 They would have, you know, like, their AK-47s and stuff. And if anybody thought they were going to interact and get in the middle of this... You know, those guys are hard, the way they keep their security protecting their VIPs and stuff, but...

Joe Rogan 30:17 It is interesting the relationship between the United States and Russia when it comes to space travel-

Mark Smith 30:21 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 30:21 ... that the United States needs the Russians. They just need them, you know?

Mark Smith 30:25 Yeah, 'cause we had a, a design to have, you know, the Constellation, what was gonna be our new rocket system, et cetera. Uh, but once again, because of budgetary confank- constraints and what Congress is gonna approve-... if there was another means to be able to do that, we said, "We're just gonna send our folks to Russia for right now." So when I left the White House, the boss was like, "What do you want to go do?" And he said, "Narrow it down to three places." I was either gonna go fly the F-22, I was gonna apply to be an astronaut, or as I did, I was gonna go back to Nellis Air Force Base. The astronaut program would've been a dream come true. But since we had already selected the last crew for flying the space shuttle, I said, "Ah, I don't know if I'm gonna get the chance to go up into space or not."

Joe Rogan 31:02 What if they talked to you about going to, to the moon and putting a base up there? Would you have done that?

Mark Smith 31:07 I, I probably would have done that.

Joe Rogan 31:08 Jesus, Mark.

Mark Smith 31:09 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:10 Why you wanna go do that?

Mark Smith 31:12 As long as I can get back, it's all good.

Joe Rogan 31:13 You know what freaks me out the most about a base on the moon? There's no g- there's no atmosphere, so like-

Mark Smith 31:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:18 ... shit that comes flying out of the sky that we see that's just sh- shooting stars-

Mark Smith 31:22 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 31:23 ... that stuff lands on the moon.

Mark Smith 31:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:25 It just slams right in there.

Mark Smith 31:27 Yes.

Joe Rogan 31:27 So you could be chilling in your little space station that you spent six months to develop and set up, and then boom, you get hit with a rock.

Mark Smith 31:34 Going out with a bang, no? It's, it's that, you know, I've always had the goal of, you know, achieving something incredible in life.

Joe Rogan 31:40 What is this, Jimmy?

Narrator 31:41 Guys going, paying money to go-

Joe Rogan 31:42 Oh my-

Narrator 31:43 ... private citizens.

Joe Rogan 31:43 ... God. Oh, t- to the ISS?

Narrator 31:46 For now.

Joe Rogan 31:46 Axiom... Oh, for now? Oh, this, they're-

Narrator 31:49 I mean, it's the first.

Joe Rogan 31:49 Okay.

Narrator 31:50 Or not the very first, but this is big news, like, I think.

Joe Rogan 31:52 The first-

Mark Smith 31:53 Yeah, wasn't it-

Joe Rogan 31:53 ... private crew paying-

Mark Smith 31:54 Wasn't it Martha Stewart's, you know, former boyfriend or somebody went-

Narrator 31:58 Yeah.

Mark Smith 31:58 He went up on the Soyuz and spent some time-

Joe Rogan 31:59 He might be going there just to get away from her.

Mark Smith 32:01 I think he al- he already did it, though. This is-

Joe Rogan 32:03 (laughs)

Narrator 32:03 A few people have already done it, but this was, like, a new trip. They're all paying $55 million apiece.

Joe Rogan 32:07 Jesus.

Narrator 32:09 To go hang out for eight days. There's no room for them to sleep on the ISS, so they just, like, grab a sleeping bag and float, I guess.

Mark Smith 32:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:15 The third guy from the left makes sense. He's like, "Fuck it."

Mark Smith 32:18 I'd do that-

Joe Rogan 32:19 "I got, I ain't got much time left."

Mark Smith 32:19 In a heartbeat, if I were to get-

Joe Rogan 32:21 Would you?

Mark Smith 32:21 ... the phone call to say, "Hey-

Joe Rogan 32:22 Yeah.

Mark Smith 32:22 ... do you wanna come join the current space program?"

Joe Rogan 32:24 Oh.

Mark Smith 32:24 I'm gonna go do it.

Joe Rogan 32:25 Oh.

Mark Smith 32:26 I'd ask my bosses over in Dallas for a, uh, a little hiatus, and I'd go do it.

Joe Rogan 32:31 What is the highest you've ever been in a fighter jet?

Mark Smith 32:33 Possibly over 50,000 feet.

Joe Rogan 32:35 Possibly?

Mark Smith 32:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:36 You don't wanna confirm or deny. I understand.

Mark Smith 32:39 'Cause-

Joe Rogan 32:39 That seems like the edge of space.

Mark Smith 32:41 Uh, you can start to see some pretty interesting stuff up there. The plane is rated to go to 50,000 feet, and that's really for pressurization and some other stuff. But maybe to expedite getting from point A to point B, we may have touched over-

Joe Rogan 32:54 May have gotten up there.

Mark Smith 32:55 May have gotten over that once or twice.

Joe Rogan 32:57 So what does it look like up there?

Mark Smith 32:59 Uh, so all the flat-Earthers out there, you can actually-

Joe Rogan 33:02 (laughs)

Mark Smith 33:02 ... (laughs) you can start to see the curvature of the Earth.

Joe Rogan 33:03 Don't you want to take those dummies up there?

Mark Smith 33:05 Oh, God.

Joe Rogan 33:06 Like, just get in the plane, bitch.

Mark Smith 33:07 So I, I made a bet. Some guy was arguing with me on social media, which was-

Joe Rogan 33:10 No.

Mark Smith 33:10 ... smart on my part, right?

Joe Rogan 33:12 You were arguing about the flat Earth?

Mark Smith 33:14 I, I put it to him. I said, "You go find the point on Earth where it ends, and you can fall off." And I said, "I will pay for college tuition for all of your children."

Joe Rogan 33:23 (laughs)

Mark Smith 33:24 I didn't hear another thing from him ever. (laughs) So w- and, and when I fly now, you know, our plane, you know, will go up into the, you know, the low 40s. Most of the time, we're gonna fly in the high, you know, 39,000, something like that. You can start to see the curvature of the Earth when you get up there, you know, especially at dusk and dawn. So when you get up at 49, 50,000 feet, you can, you can see the good curvature.

Joe Rogan 33:45 Yeah, the, the view from the Space Station-

Mark Smith 33:48 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:48 ... you know, the, just the images that w- I've seen from there, it seems like that would just change your life. Just the, the r- the relationship that you have to the Earth-

Mark Smith 33:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 33:57 ... the way you look at living on Earth, being above it and looking down on it-

Mark Smith 34:02 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 34:02 ... like, "Oh, down there's home?" It's just... It, it must be a com- like a complete (snaps fingers) paradigm shifter. Like-

Mark Smith 34:09 You know what's amazing? So whenever I go fly, you know, we can't do anything below 10,000 feet. But once you get above that, you can take pictures and stuff. And, you know, taking off out of Vegas at 6:00 in the morning at sunrise, you get some pretty amazing sunrise photos if we're going eastbound. So I will post stuff to my social media all the time. Some of the... You know, if there's a big thunderstorm right next to us, you know, I'll film it and post it, and people go crazy over that kind of stuff. And you know-

Joe Rogan 34:31 I'm sure.

Mark Smith 34:31 ... a beautiful day over the Gulf of Mexico, and I'm snapping pictures and posting on social media and stuff.

Joe Rogan 34:36 There's no restrictions on, like, using your phone while you're up there to take pictures?

Mark Smith 34:38 You can't be on WiFi. You know, you can't be... We don't sit up there and, you know, watch the game on Super Bowl-

Joe Rogan 34:44 You can't be arguing with people on Twitter while you're flying?

Mark Smith 34:47 No, we don't-

Joe Rogan 34:47 (laughs)

Mark Smith 34:47 We don't do any of that stuff. So in the back, you can. But as far as limitations upfront, one, one thing I will say is we are a very disciplined group. So below 10,000 feet, unless it has to deal with, uh, specific flying, there can't be any casual conversation. And that's a FAA mandate, and we adhere to that 100%. Once you get above 10,000 feet, we do have WiFi up there, but we simply use it for navigation and looking at weather and stuff. Like, I can't be, you know...

Joe Rogan 35:11 Now, do you have, uh, is it a satellite link?

Mark Smith 35:14 It, it is a satellite link. Um, so we have a couple communications, you know. There's a, you know, satellite link on the back of the plane, and hopefully, it, it's working, because that, that's our communication as far as back and forth talking to the company, looking at weather, and you know, folks in the back as far as being able to socialize, internet, social media, stuff like that. There are capabilities and, you know, who I work for, they do all that.

Joe Rogan 35:33 Is it wack? Is it like airplane WiFi, where it's real slow to... and you can't really watch YouTube? (laughs)

Mark Smith 35:40 Um, no, actually, I used it coming out here yesterday, and I think it's pretty good. Now, some of the expanded, you know, things that come with it, you may have to pay for that. But as far as basic capabilities, you can connect to it and be able to use it.

Joe Rogan 35:51 Are you talking about on a fighter jet, or are you talking about on a regular passenger-

Mark Smith 35:55 No, on a commercial airliner.

Joe Rogan 35:56 Commercial airliner. So it's gotten better?

Mark Smith 35:57 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:58 Oh.

Mark Smith 35:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:59 I, I don't even bother anymore. If I fly, I just, just watch a movie on my laptop or something.

Mark Smith 36:04 You know, I do that and things have changed over the years. I used to get on a plane and sit in the back, and I would be asleep before we pushed off the gate, and I made it that trip. But now I'm so conscious of everything going around me.

Joe Rogan 36:16 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 36:16 Because I sit up front, we have to be, you know, the flight... Our, our flight attendants are amazing, everything they have to deal with in the back. But because of security procedures and stuff like that... So I had a, I had an incident on the plane about five years ago that I'll never sleep on a plane again.

Joe Rogan 36:30 What happened?

Mark Smith 36:30 Um, so it's very secure when we come out of the cockpit. You know, you don't want any kind of cockpit intrusion.... and you'll notice when we come out of the cockpit, passengers cannot use the front restroom. And there'll be security procedures in place. So, I came out of the cockpit and this gentleman got up and started to walk towards me, and the flight attendant was like, "You gotta sit down." And the guy just stood there and it turned into a Texas standoff. Like, who's gonna win here? Guy wouldn't sit down. Start- leaned around the flight attendant very aggressively and I was like, "Hey, sir, you gotta sit down." And he didn't. He had this mean mug on his face. About five feet away from the flight attendant, wouldn't sit down. So, what I did now is I picked up the PA, got on there and said, "Hey, sir. Pilot's side of the cockpit. You need to sit down right now." And now what that did is that got other passengers-

Joe Rogan 37:20 Hmm.

Mark Smith 37:20 ... involved and everybody's looking around their seat to see what's gonna happen. I thought he aggressively was gonna try to come up and do something.

Joe Rogan 37:26 Jesus.

Mark Smith 37:27 So, what I did is I put my hand on the back of the flight attendant and I said, "If he comes forward, I just need you to lean about five feet to the left. If he aggressively postures and tries to attack, I'm gonna put his jaw on the floor." You hate for it to come down to that.

Joe Rogan 37:41 Right.

Mark Smith 37:41 You never wanna be able to do that, but I thought the guy was gonna-

Joe Rogan 37:43 Was he drunk?

Mark Smith 37:45 I don't think he was. Um, I think it was probably something more to it, but, you know, our goal is safety of you as a passenger. You never-

Joe Rogan 37:52 It was something more to it, so he was thinking about-

Mark Smith 37:55 It-

Joe Rogan 37:55 ... going to the cockpit.

Mark Smith 37:56 You never know what someone's- you know, there've been-

Joe Rogan 37:57 You just don't know, right?

Mark Smith 37:58 ... there've been cockpit intrusions.

Joe Rogan 37:59 Yeah.

Mark Smith 37:59 You know, the doors are really enforced, but, you know, there have been people that have, you know, before the safety seal at the bottom, that have busted that out and tried to get into the cockpit and, you know, other crazy things that have happened over the years. My goal is to get you from point A to point B as safely and smoothly as possible, and if somebody tries to get into our cockpit, I'm gonna defend that as much as I can.

Joe Rogan 38:19 What happened to the guy?

Mark Smith 38:20 Um-

Joe Rogan 38:20 Did authorities meet him at the gate when you landed?

Mark Smith 38:23 We don't get involved in any of that. If there is a potential law enforcement engagement, we may call them. But if there was an incident, what we did is we just kept the door closed. So, they may have met him, but we won't get involved in that at all unless there's actual interaction, physical contact.

Joe Rogan 38:36 Did he eventually sit down?

Mark Smith 38:38 He did sit down because ... One thing I noticed after 9/11, a lot of people were like, "Not happening on my plane today."

Joe Rogan 38:44 Right.

Mark Smith 38:45 So, when I picked up the PA and said that, I had a lot of other passengers turn around. I was like, "You'd better sit the fuck down right now. You're not gonna do this." And, you know, we got other people starting to get involved with it. They made him sit down. He very angrily sat down.

Joe Rogan 38:57 How weird.

Mark Smith 38:57 But now you've got other passengers that are, you know, conscious of it, and that's, that's one thing we would probably ask. You don't want people to engage in it, but if something gets out of control, everybody better step up and do our part to, you know ... We never want a 9/11 to happen again. We don't wanna ever experience that again.

Joe Rogan 39:12 It's just s- some people are just, if there's any sort of pushback against them at all, they, they're almost ready for conflict. There's certain people that, you know, you tell them you have to sit down, and they're like-

Mark Smith 39:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:23 ... "Or what? Or what happens if I don't fucking sit down?"

Mark Smith 39:26 We're gonna land-

Joe Rogan 39:27 Yeah.

Mark Smith 39:27 ... and you're gonna get a nice greeting at the gate. So, like now-

Joe Rogan 39:29 J- put this-

Mark Smith 39:29 ... the big thing is the mask.

Joe Rogan 39:31 Right.

Mark Smith 39:31 You know, you gotta have the mask on.

Joe Rogan 39:32 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Mark Smith 39:32 So, if we're taxiing out, you don't have the mask on, they will. Our flight attendants will do everything possible.

Joe Rogan 39:38 I saw a thing though, where a lady got kicked off a flight because her baby wouldn't keep the mask on, which is kind of fucking crazy.

Mark Smith 39:42 We were just talking about that up front. That's kind of tough. What, what age do you ... You know, if it's a two-year-old, is that when you put the mask on?

Joe Rogan 39:47 Two-year-olds can't have a fucking mask. And by the way, if they get sick, it's like nothing. It just goes in and out of their system. I mean, it, it... The flu-

Mark Smith 39:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:55 ... is actually very dangerous for them.

Mark Smith 39:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 39:58 And nobody ever did anything about that. But coronavirus for little kids is not, stat- like, statistically speaking-

Mark Smith 40:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:04 ... it's not a big danger.

Mark Smith 40:06 It takes some s- you know. That's why I go back to our flight attendants. One of my flight attendants, Frank, you know, uh, we talk about that all the time. They are amazing with what they have to, you know, deal with. So, one, customer service, safety, et cetera. And when you start to deal with issues like that, man, it takes a lot of, you know, patience and discretion-

Joe Rogan 40:22 Yeah.

Mark Smith 40:22 ... to do the right thing. But if it's an adult that simply does not wanna comply-

Joe Rogan 40:26 Right.

Mark Smith 40:26 ... they'll do everything they can to get that person to comply, to the point of having to call up front and tell the captain that we have an issue. And then even when it comes to that, because it's about safety and customer service, we're gonna get on the PA and say, "Ladies and gentlemen, we have compliance things that you need to follow. Please do this. If you don't do it, now we have to go to the next step."

Joe Rogan 40:44 Some people just don't like following orders, man. It's so w- it's so weird. You can see it in their face.

Mark Smith 40:49 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 40:49 It's, like, maybe something they grew up with or whatever. They're like, "No, fuck this."

Mark Smith 40:53 There's a easy fix to that.

Joe Rogan 40:54 (laughs)

Mark Smith 40:54 We'll land and be like, "Have a good day."

Joe Rogan 40:56 You said that flying over here to do this show was the first time you sat in the back in a long time.

Mark Smith 41:00 In a long time, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:01 Was it weird?

Mark Smith 41:02 It was weird, one, because the lady next to me was coughing. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:05 Oh, no.

Mark Smith 41:05 So

Narrator 41:05 They were like-

Mark Smith 41:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:07 Oh, no. (laughs)

Mark Smith 41:08 And it was funny. Everybody around her, every time she coughed, everybody would look at her like, "That's not the 'rona, is it?"

Joe Rogan 41:14 Ugh.

Mark Smith 41:14 So, I casually reached down in my bag and I pulled out another mask. (laughs) And I double masked up-

Joe Rogan 41:18 A double mask.

Mark Smith 41:18 ... with my hat on and my shades, and I'm kinda sitting in the corner like this and ...

Joe Rogan 41:22 Oh. My friend Reggie Watts has this helmet that he's gonna wear when he comes here. It's the most preposterous thing. It's a HEPA filter, it's a hel- it, it looks like a space suit.

Mark Smith 41:31 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 41:31 Pull that stupid thing off. Oh, you got it right here. We have it. We actually have it.

Mark Smith 41:36 Oh, wow. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:36 We, we bought a couple of them.

Mark Smith 41:37 Oh, that's incredible.

Joe Rogan 41:39 Look at this.

Mark Smith 41:40 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:41 (laughs) I haven't put it on. Jamie put it on, but this, it's, it's kinda ridiculous.

Narrator 41:46 Very ridiculous. Kinda. It's very-

Joe Rogan 41:47 Yeah, very ridiculous, right?

Narrator 41:49 Yeah. No, yeah, you can't hear anything when you're in, got that on.

Joe Rogan 41:51 Which one's the top?

Narrator 41:52 That's it. There's only one way to put it on, so ...

Joe Rogan 41:53 Oh, so like this?

Narrator 41:54 Yep. Yep.

Joe Rogan 41:58 So, Reggie's gonna fly like this.

Mark Smith 42:00 (laughs)

Narrator 42:00 (laughs)

Mark Smith 42:00 There are aliens. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:01 And I guess if you seal this bitch up, though, it does make sense.

Narrator 42:04 Yeah, there's a fan you gotta turn on, though.

Joe Rogan 42:06 Huh?

Narrator 42:06 Just a fan on the side.

Joe Rogan 42:08 Where's the fan?

Narrator 42:08 It, there's a slit, um, where, like, right here by your jaw.

Joe Rogan 42:13 Come at me.

Narrator 42:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:13 I know where to go. Where does it turn on?

Mark Smith 42:15 (laughs)

Narrator 42:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 42:16 Reggie?

Narrator 42:16 He's fogging up.

Mark Smith 42:16 It's fogging up.

Narrator 42:18 There's a thing right, right under there.

Joe Rogan 42:19 But the fan will... Uh, how do I turn it off?

Narrator 42:21 Yeah, it's, it's in there.

Joe Rogan 42:22 Jamie, come.

Narrator 42:22 Oh.

Joe Rogan 42:23 Let me out.

Narrator 42:26 It's, like, under here.

Mark Smith 42:27 That's like a astronaut helmet.

Narrator 42:30 There.

Joe Rogan 42:30 Oh, there it goes. So, it's got a fan, and it apparently clears the air too, right?

Narrator 42:35 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Smith 42:35 Oh, man.

Joe Rogan 42:36 It's like a HEPA filter?

Narrator 42:37 I can't ... Sure.

Joe Rogan 42:38 So, Reggie's out there flying like this.

Mark Smith 42:42 ... people would freak out if they saw that.

Joe Rogan 42:43 Hey, people watch, follow, follow him on Instagram. He's a great follow. But he's actually flying with one of these things.

Mark Smith 42:48 They'll make you take it off at TSA, 'cause they gotta see-

Joe Rogan 42:50 Really?

Mark Smith 42:50 ... your true face, yeah. Like if you come up-

Joe Rogan 42:52 At TSA.

Mark Smith 42:52 ... with the mask and stuff.

Joe Rogan 42:53 Yeah.

Mark Smith 42:53 They make you pull it down.

Joe Rogan 42:54 But then once you're on the plane, can you wear this?

Mark Smith 42:56 I don't see why not.

Joe Rogan 42:57 It's not a mask.

Mark Smith 42:58 I don't see why not.

Joe Rogan 42:58 It's better than a mask.

Mark Smith 42:59 (laughs) There was a, there was a guy that had a, a Boba Fett helmet on-

Joe Rogan 43:05 Oh, did he?

Mark Smith 43:05 ... in the airport yesterday.

Joe Rogan 43:06 Did they let him?

Mark Smith 43:07 No. They'll make you take it off 'cause they gotta make a determination if you have a true mask on.

Joe Rogan 43:11 Yeah. A true mask.

Mark Smith 43:14 Yeah. You know, 'cause like you can't wear the ones with the vents in it anymore.

Joe Rogan 43:17 Right, right, right.

Mark Smith 43:17 So they, and we, we keep it at the disposal.

Joe Rogan 43:19 I never understood those vents. Like a guy came to the studio once and he had a mask and he had two vents on each side. I'm like, "What are you doing?"

Mark Smith 43:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:26 Th- That, you have a hole in your mask.

Mark Smith 43:28 Yes.

Joe Rogan 43:29 This is not a real mask.

Mark Smith 43:29 That, and you know the little, like the plastic face shield?

Joe Rogan 43:32 Yeah.

Mark Smith 43:32 It's, it's about ... Y- You can't wear anything like that either.

Joe Rogan 43:34 Those are ridiculous too. There's a whole, you can grab up and grab your face.

Mark Smith 43:37 Yeah. Just-

Joe Rogan 43:38 (laughs)

Mark Smith 43:38 The Rona will come out in the top or bottom.

Joe Rogan 43:41 It's, all of it's just so strange 'cause nobody knows what's really working and what doesn't work. And then there's these anti-mask people think that nothing works, there's no evidence.

Mark Smith 43:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:49 Some of them are actually intelligent. That's what the real problem is. Like, uh, Alex Berenson, who used to write for the New York Times, was on this podcast.

Mark Smith 43:56 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 43:56 And he said, "There's very little evidence that shows that masks work."

Mark Smith 44:00 I wear a double mask. Like so I, I got my mask and then I put one of the, you know, the medical masks on the inside.

Joe Rogan 44:05 That's what Tom Cruise does.

Mark Smith 44:06 And I kinda look at it, like if I can't smell anything, and that's at least a start. You know, at least a, another barrier.

Joe Rogan 44:10 It's at least some ... I would imagine if someone's coughing, there's stuff that's in the air, and if you have a mask, it's gotta stop some of that shit.

Mark Smith 44:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:19 But, like-

Mark Smith 44:20 That's been the goal to stay as safe as possible.

Joe Rogan 44:23 Now, explain to me how you go from being a fighter pilot to being an MMA referee.

Mark Smith 44:31 All right. So it's weird. Uh, when I was in Vegas the first time, 2002 to 2005, um, part of my physical fitness regime was ... Like I, everyone has to box. I went to the Air Force Academy, everyone has to box there. When I came back to-

Joe Rogan 44:43 Really? Everyone has to box at the Air Force Academy?

Mark Smith 44:46 Yeah. Part of the, part of the, uh, PE programs is you go through a boxing program.

Joe Rogan 44:49 Really?

Mark Smith 44:49 Yeah. So for a semester, you gotta box.

Joe Rogan 44:51 That's great. That's great.

Mark Smith 44:51 You know, it's part of the, the self-defense skills. There, there are other things that they do.

Joe Rogan 44:55 They make you spar?

Mark Smith 44:56 Yeah. You gotta pull up spar. And then-

Joe Rogan 44:57 Whoa.

Mark Smith 44:57 You know, we got boxing teams at the academy.

Joe Rogan 44:59 Yeah, I know that, but-

Mark Smith 44:59 And I will say this, for years, the academy boxing team was, uh, you know, the best in the world.

Joe Rogan 45:03 Well, they have Ray Mercer, won a gold medal in the Olympics when he was fighting for the army.

Mark Smith 45:07 There are a lot of, you know, a lot of my classmates-

Joe Rogan 45:08 Pretty sure that's the case.

Mark Smith 45:10 All-Americans, that, you know, boxed throughout the years.

Joe Rogan 45:11 Yeah.

Mark Smith 45:12 And, and so when I got back-

Joe Rogan 45:13 Randy Couture boxed in the army too.

Mark Smith 45:14 Yep. And that's, so that's kinda tied in, that's how it started. When I went back to Vegas, I went to a gym called JSEC, which is now Fight Capital.

Joe Rogan 45:22 Sure.

Mark Smith 45:23 And JSEC, you know, with Skipper Kell-

Joe Rogan 45:24 John Lewis.

Mark Smith 45:25 John Lewis.

Joe Rogan 45:25 Yeah.

Mark Smith 45:25 That's the first gym that I went back to.

Joe Rogan 45:26 Shout out to John Lewis. Uh, and Skipper.

Mark Smith 45:28 Skip- Skipper Kell, all those guys are amazing. So, remember-

Joe Rogan 45:30 Skipper's awesome.

Mark Smith 45:31 ... back in the day, that's where Randy Couture would train, Marvin Eastman.

Joe Rogan 45:34 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 45:34 Tito Ortiz, Chuck Liddell. I went in there and that's where I started doing all my boxing and my jujitsu and everything else. So, I was already doing some stuff with the UFC. You p- you probably don't remember, but some of the old school UFC fights, like when, um, Randy Couture fought in Columbus, Ohio. They would have me come out to the fights and go to a local VA hospital there in the area, and I'd bring a group of like five or 10 vets out to every single UFC fight.

Joe Rogan 46:01 Is Columbus when he fought for the title against Tim Sylvia?

Mark Smith 46:04 Well, against Tim Sylvia.

Joe Rogan 46:05 Yeah, I remember that.

Mark Smith 46:05 Th- You know, that and some of the other UFC fights, I'd bring these guys out. So I already had a, a rapport and a relationship with a bunch of those guys. And here I am doing this training, boxing stuff at, at JSEC. And we had a couple guys come in there that wanted to spar one day. And I was like, "Oh, that looks interesting. I think I'd like to get in there and referee with them." And Skipper was like, "Practice with some of the other guys first while they're doing their live sparring. And then when these pros come back, I want you to get in the ring and move around with them and see what you think." And it was weird 'cause Dana came in there one day and I was like, "Dana, can I have a picture with you?" And we took a picture and he's like, "What the hell are you doing in there?" I was like, "I was just practice refereeing a little bit."

Joe Rogan 46:43 (laughs)

Mark Smith 46:43 So he's like, "Is that something that you're interested in?" And I said, "Yeah." So him or, you know, somebody that worked for him told me, "I want you to contact these guys. I want you to contact Barry Meyer," God rest his soul, and the folks over at Tuff Enuf. Jeff, his, uh, younger brother.

Joe Rogan 46:58 Yeah.

Mark Smith 46:58 One of the top amateur promotions there, uh, in Las Vegas across the world, you know, MMA fighting, et cetera. So they had me go to their fight the next day and I sat there next to Barry and he's like, "Is this something that you wanna do?" And I would practice scoring fights. And I did that for a little bit and the ISKA folks brought me on as a judge and I did the judging for about six months. While the whole time I'm still going to these gyms, Xtreme Couture, Syndicate, JSEC, getting in the ring and I'm practicing with these guys and I go, "You know what? I love this refereeing stuff." So I decided to take a formal course. So I went and took Herb's course (laughs) and I realized how much I didn't know (laughs) . So I took Herb's course and I did really well there and I made-

Joe Rogan 47:34 Where does Herb teach his course out of?

Mark Smith 47:35 Uh, you know, he was teaching out, uh, like in the Glendale area, uh, at one of his gyms out there.

Joe Rogan 47:39 Oh, okay. California?

Mark Smith 47:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:40 So, how long is the course? Like if you wanted to learn how to referee? Uh, it seems like it would be very extensive.

Mark Smith 47:46 Yeah. So, you have to be qualified to get to that point to accept it, you know. So Herb's course is over, uh, two days.

Joe Rogan 47:52 So you already have to have some experience as an amateur or how does-

Mark Smith 47:56 If you, if you wanna pass. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 47:57 If you wanna pass.

Mark Smith 47:58 If you, if you wanna come there and just, you know, show up and learn some stuff, you're probably not gonna pass. You gotta be proficient when you get there.

Joe Rogan 48:03 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 48:03 So I took Herb's course and I did really well and I made, you know ... Herb calls it his dean's list as one of his top officials. And then I switched over to refereeing. So here I am judging amateur fights and then refereeing amateur fights. Bill Brady, who was the chairman of Nevada State Athletic Commission, was coming to the fights and then he knew I was military also, he knew I'd done some stuff with the veterans coming to the fights. He talked to me one day and he's like, "How far do you wanna progress with this?" And at the time, I didn't know 'cause I was still active duty military. So he came and he watched me do a bunch of fights and he would look at my scores and watch me refereeing and then I got this phone call one day that says, "We want you to come to the commission meeting on Tuesday."... and I was, "Oh, man. This is either good or bad. Either I did something wrong-"

Joe Rogan 48:44 (laughs)

Mark Smith 48:44 "... or I'm about to get suspended." Well, I went in and, you know, you stand up in front of them and, uh, they ask you these series of questions. And, man, I was very lucky. So I got licensed in Nevada, which is obviously the biggest state for the biggest fights in the world.

Joe Rogan 48:56 Yeah.

Mark Smith 48:56 They brought me on as first a judge with Keith Kaiser. You know, he brought me on for a judge a little bit. And I'm still refereeing amateurs and getting more proficient. I started to try this again, so I went and took Big John's course. (laughs) And, and Herb's course is hard. Big John's course is extremely hard. Three days to get to that level of proficiency. And, and Big John has a, you know... Pass rate is extremely rare. You gotta be-

Joe Rogan 49:22 Really?

Mark Smith 49:22 Yeah. And, you know, they work together, you know, with the commissions and the Association of Boxing Commissions to get proficiency across the board. Well, I took John's course and I was like, "God, man. This is really challenging." I mean-

Joe Rogan 49:32 Is he still doing that now that he's doing a commentary?

Mark Smith 49:34 I don't know if he's doing it just because of all the virus stuff, but-

Joe Rogan 49:37 Well, okay.

Mark Smith 49:37 ... what I think I will say is we still do training. Like, uh, so I... Tomorrow, the State of Nevada has training. I, I run all the training for the State of Nevada. We're doing that via Zoom.

Joe Rogan 49:46 Oh.

Mark Smith 49:46 California did training last week, and John and Herb and all the top officials in the world, everybody participates.

Joe Rogan 49:52 So John is still doing that while he's doing commentary for Bellator?

Mark Smith 49:56 I, I don't know if John's course is still active or not. I-

Joe Rogan 49:58 And he also does that podcast with Josh Thompson.

Mark Smith 50:00 Yeah, he does a podcast. So-

Joe Rogan 50:01 Yeah.

Mark Smith 50:01 ... you know, but although he's, you know, doing the stuff with Bellator, he's still, you know, very much involved in the game.

Joe Rogan 50:08 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 50:08 With that knowledge base, you know-

Joe Rogan 50:10 Yeah.

Mark Smith 50:10 ... he essentially wrote the unified rules of MMA.

Joe Rogan 50:12 He's become a very good commentator too.

Mark Smith 50:14 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:14 He's excellent.

Mark Smith 50:15 Yeah. So you can imagine me now having my two mentors in the game are Herb Dean and John McCarthy. And, you know-

Joe Rogan 50:21 Yeah.

Mark Smith 50:21 ... for folks that say, "Oh, these referees, they mess up," or, "These judges mess up," no. It's not like that at all. If I mess up something, I hear from both of them because, again, the goal is to not affect the outcome of a fight. So I do that for a little bit, and then the Athletic Commission goes, "We think we want you to be a referee as well." So at the time, there was no one that was doing both. They want you to concentrate on one of your expertise.

Joe Rogan 50:40 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 50:41 So if, you know, you go back and look at it, for a while there, I was the only person that was refereeing and judging, eventually worked my way up to UFC fights. Now, I made a transition so I could focus more on refereeing, and then my fights have progressively gotten bigger and bigger as my proficiency has gotten better. If you look at that last card that we did, I think I had three of the biggest fights of any UFC card. I did the Cub Swanson fight, and I did the-

Joe Rogan 51:04 What a fight that was.

Mark Smith 51:05 It was. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:05 Holy shit.

Mark Smith 51:06 I get about a 20-minute break, and then I do Kevin Holland versus Jacare.

Joe Rogan 51:10 Woo.

Mark Smith 51:11 And then I finished my night with Tony Ferguson and Oliveira.

Joe Rogan 51:16 That was crazy too.

Mark Smith 51:17 So it's like, "Man."

Joe Rogan 51:17 Three crazy fights.

Mark Smith 51:18 Three crazy fights, so...

Joe Rogan 51:19 Yeah. God, that's a great card. That Kevin Holland KO was bananas.

Mark Smith 51:24 I think I've done... And, you know, we don't have anything to do with the assignments. The Athletic Commission gives us our fights. I've done Kevin Holland's, like, last four fights. And, you know, I tell folks, I got the greatest seat in the world sitting there in the octagon with these, you know, men and women who go in there and do that stuff. But I, fortunately, have... With great mentors and guidance and opportunities from the UFC and some of the organizations, have gotten some of the biggest and best fights in the world, and...

Joe Rogan 51:47 I'm very high on Kevin Holland. He's something special.

Mark Smith 51:50 He's good.

Joe Rogan 51:51 He's got crazy power. And it's weird. Like, to, to knock out Jacare off your back-

Mark Smith 51:55 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:56 ... with a punch, like, what?

Mark Smith 51:58 And we sit there (laughs) and, you know... You look at both fighters and see what's happening, and I go... It went down to the ground, and you have to-

Joe Rogan 52:03 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 52:03 ... know your fighters to know where their expertise is gonna happen.

Joe Rogan 52:06 Well, he's a Travis Luter-trained, uh, jiu-jitsu-

Mark Smith 52:09 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:09 ... practitioner. And Travis Luter, one of the best American jiu-jitsu practitioners-

Mark Smith 52:14 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:14 ... really ever. He, Travis Luter, you know, it's a... He c- comes from a different era.

Mark Smith 52:19 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:19 But back in his day, like, the guys that I know that trained with him-

Mark Smith 52:23 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 52:23 ... were like, "Holy fuck, is he good."

Mark Smith 52:25 And it's great to see him, you know, there in the corner.

Joe Rogan 52:27 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 52:27 You get to, you know-

Joe Rogan 52:27 Yeah.

Mark Smith 52:27 ... sometimes to chat with these guys and hear all the stories, but-

Joe Rogan 52:30 He's out of Dallas, right?

Mark Smith 52:31 Yeah. When that fight happened-

Joe Rogan 52:32 Fort Worth?

Mark Smith 52:33 Yeah. When that fight happened, he's on his back and he throws that first punch.

Joe Rogan 52:36 Crazy.

Mark Smith 52:36 And I go, "Okay, this is gonna be a transition." I look at Jacare and, you know, if you go back and watch the fight, he's actually rocked-

Joe Rogan 52:41 Yeah.

Mark Smith 52:42 ... when that first happened, and we'll step a little bit closer. And by the time he throws the next three punches and I'm stepping in to try and stop it, you know, Jacare is out.

Joe Rogan 52:50 Out.

Mark Smith 52:50 And they'll, they'll concentrate on the fighter that wins, but, you know... One, you don't want a fighter to come back conscious (laughs) and take you down to start to do something.

Joe Rogan 52:58 Right. That does happen.

Mark Smith 52:59 And if there's a language barrier, you know... So I'm sitting there telling Jacare, "The fight's over. The fight's over." You know, I, I say, "Stop, stop, stop," so there's no misunderstanding about what's going on. And I'm holding the... Jacare and holding the fence 'cause he's starting to, you know, come back coherent again.

Joe Rogan 53:12 Right.

Mark Smith 53:12 And I want him to understand that he's been knocked out and, you know, he's like, "No, no, I'm good, I'm good." I'm going, "Nah, man, you got knocked out. You've been out for, you know, a minute or two."

Joe Rogan 53:20 Isn't that crazy?

Mark Smith 53:21 Everybody eventually starts to come back.

Joe Rogan 53:22 They all think they're fine. Like, people think that fighters, like, they're trying to cheat or something like that.

Mark Smith 53:28 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:28 Like, you don't understand what it's like when you get knocked out.

Mark Smith 53:30 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:30 And especially fighters, when they come back, they think they're in the fight.

Mark Smith 53:33 Exactly.

Joe Rogan 53:34 Like, they'll try to take a referee down. They're holding onto pants legs.

Mark Smith 53:37 Yep.

Joe Rogan 53:37 They don't even think that it's a pants leg.

Mark Smith 53:38 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 53:38 And then eventually they go, "Why is this... I'm... These are black pants."

Mark Smith 53:41 It's always-

Joe Rogan 53:42 Like, "What is this?"

Mark Smith 53:43 ... "What happened?"

Joe Rogan 53:43 Yeah, "What happened?"

Mark Smith 53:44 They always say-

Joe Rogan 53:45 Yep.

Mark Smith 53:45 ... "What happened?"

Joe Rogan 53:45 Yeah.

Mark Smith 53:45 Or they, they get the bright light of the... You know, the doctor is shining-

Joe Rogan 53:48 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 53:48 ... the flashlight in our eyes going-

Joe Rogan 53:49 Yeah.

Mark Smith 53:49 ... "What happened?"

Joe Rogan 53:50 Yeah.

Mark Smith 53:50 And one thing we tried to transition doing... You know, I've had some fighters get really hurt, really bad. We normally keep everybody out of the octagon, but one thing we're doing is we're allowing a coach to come in with a doctor, with the inspectors, with myself, and give them a familiar voice.

Joe Rogan 54:06 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 54:06 You know, you get knocked out, you come back, and here's Mark telling you, "No, the fight's over." You may not-

Joe Rogan 54:10 Right.

Mark Smith 54:10 ... recognize... But if your coach is there in the corner saying, "Hey, such and such, you got knocked out. Calm down. It's fine. This is coach such and such. I'm here." We're finding that's calming the fighter down just a little bit.

Joe Rogan 54:19 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 54:19 Obviously, medical protocols and safety, we gotta do all that. But I like doing that. I like asking one of the coaches to come in, stand off to my side, and kinda give them a familiar voice.

Joe Rogan 54:29 When Oliveira had Tony Ferguson in that armbar-

Mark Smith 54:33 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:33 ... and he had his arm completely hyper-extended, and it looked like his arm was breaking-

Mark Smith 54:36 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:37 ... like, what was your thought there? 'Cause some guys have stopped fights when a guy has a fully locked out armbar.

Mark Smith 54:43 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 54:43 And it's very controversial. Like, some people think you should just let it keep going. Other people think, like, the... One of the best examples was Herb Dean with Tim Sylvia-

Mark Smith 54:52 Tim Sylvia.

Joe Rogan 54:52 ... versus Frank Mir.

Mark Smith 54:53 Right. That went through my mind during that fight.

Joe Rogan 54:55 Yes.

Mark Smith 54:55 And see, what a lot of people didn't understand at first is Herb is looking directly at his arm-

Joe Rogan 54:59 Yes.

Mark Smith 54:59 ... and sees it snap.

Joe Rogan 55:00 And heard it too.

Mark Smith 55:01 He heard it.

Joe Rogan 55:01 He heard the crack.

Mark Smith 55:02 Yeah. Now he caught a lot of flack for that.

Joe Rogan 55:04 Nu- he only did for a couple seconds.

Mark Smith 55:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:06 Once I got in the octagon, I explained it. And I explained it to the audience, 'cause people were booing like crazy-

Mark Smith 55:12 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:12 ... 'cause the fight was stopped. Tim Sylvia's like, "What the fuck? What the fuck?"

Mark Smith 55:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:15 Meanwhile, his arm was trashed.

Mark Smith 55:16 He had that adrenaline going too and-

Joe Rogan 55:18 Well, his arm was gone.

Mark Smith 55:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:19 I mean, it was... And then I explained it on TV, and then when I got into the octagon-

Mark Smith 55:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:24 ... and I said, "I want you to look at something. Watch this, watch this." And then you hear everybody go, "Oh!"

Mark Smith 55:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:30 When you see his forearm bend in half.

Mark Smith 55:32 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 55:32 And then everybody's like, "Oh, okay."

Mark Smith 55:34 So at that level, with a choke, I'll tell guys in the room meeting in the back, "I'm not gonna stop unless you go out." You can have someone in a fully compromised position.

Joe Rogan 55:43 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 55:44 You know, who was it? The Chiesa fight.

Joe Rogan 55:46 Yes.

Mark Smith 55:46 You know, he was-

Joe Rogan 55:47 Kevin Lee.

Mark Smith 55:47 ... fully compromised, but, uh, how good could it be? How, how long can he hold that? Can he turn his chin to the side and get out of there?

Joe Rogan 55:52 Yeah, you gotta let him go out.

Mark Smith 55:53 You gotta let him go out. So we tell guys-

Joe Rogan 55:55 But Kevin Lee has a nasty rear naked choke-

Mark Smith 55:57 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 55:57 ... and he had Chiesa fully locked in.

Mark Smith 55:59 But even in that position-

Joe Rogan 56:00 You gotta let him go out.

Mark Smith 56:01 So I tell guys in my r-

Joe Rogan 56:02 Yeah.

Mark Smith 56:02 And we learn as we progress watching fights. You know, we talk daily, weekly, about stuff that we gotta do. So I tell them in the back in the rules meeting, "For a choke at this level, I'm not gonna stop it unless the fighter goes out."

Joe Rogan 56:12 Good.

Mark Smith 56:12 If it's any kind of other submission, I gotta see a dislocation, separation, or it has to break, or if you scream... And there's a difference between a scream and a, you know, a grunt to get out of something. If you scream, it's a verbal submission and we're gonna stop the fight.

Joe Rogan 56:24 That's a weird one, right? The, the scream-

Mark Smith 56:25 Now, now Tony-

Joe Rogan 56:26 ... verbal submission thing is weird.

Mark Smith 56:27 Tony was... Uh, man, that was-

Joe Rogan 56:30 You could saw his leg off with a rusty fucking ax.

Mark Smith 56:32 That was beyond human, because-

Joe Rogan 56:34 He will, he will not tap.

Mark Smith 56:35 When, when Charles transitioned from across the chest to under the underarm, Tony grunted.

Joe Rogan 56:40 Yeah.

Mark Smith 56:41 And he beared through it and-

Joe Rogan 56:43 Look at the-

Mark Smith 56:43 Yeah. (laughs) Right there.

Joe Rogan 56:43 ... hyperextension. I, I don't know what happened to his elbow. I don't know-

Mark Smith 56:47 But you can see my foot there. Look how close I am.

Joe Rogan 56:49 Yes.

Mark Smith 56:49 So I'm doing two things. One, I'm looking for a dislocation, separation, or break. But I'm also listening to see if it's gonna be-

Joe Rogan 56:56 Cracking.

Mark Smith 56:56 ... a verbal.

Joe Rogan 56:57 Yeah.

Mark Smith 56:57 You know, the cracking arm or verbal submission. He did not... He, he... Man, he battled through that. And there's... We gotta be conscious of the time. So the 10-second clapper had already gone off, so I'm counting down in my head. And the goal is to right when that horn goes off, you'll see when we stop a submission from that, we go right to the pressure point, push back the opposite way, and take off the, the pivot point in his underarm to stop it. 'Cause some guys are gonna try to hold it for an extra second-

Joe Rogan 57:24 Right.

Mark Smith 57:24 ... after the bell goes off. Right as that stops, I'm pushing on it and stopping it, also verbally telling the guy to stop, 'cause you don't want any extra damage after the bell. You know, I'm having some-

Joe Rogan 57:32 You remember Husamain Palhares?

Mark Smith 57:34 Yes.

Joe Rogan 57:34 Yeah.

Mark Smith 57:35 Yeah, so we saw... Now, I think he did a fight, Jake Shields or somebody like that, you know?

Joe Rogan 57:40 What's that loud noise all of a sudden? That thing? It's the trailer. So it's freaking out a little bit. Oh, great. Um-

Mark Smith 57:46 I think when he fought Jake Shields, you know, there was some extracurricular activity.

Joe Rogan 57:49 That was with, um, uh, Kimura, and that was in, uh, the PFL.

Mark Smith 57:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:54 Right?

Mark Smith 57:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:54 He held on to a Kimura and tapped Jake-

Mark Smith 57:57 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:57 ... but then held it long-

Mark Smith 57:58 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 57:59 ... and then afterwards there was a brawl inside the octagon, but-

Mark Smith 58:02 Yeah, and I think I had refereed the fight right before that. And, uh, you know, it's our responsibility as a referee to know your fighter.

Joe Rogan 58:08 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 58:08 You gotta... You know, we do... You... I... What I do is I look at the entire card, and I'll go back and try to look at their fights or whatever I get assigned. And I don't know what I get assigned until I get there to know if anyone has any tendencies, you know. Are they great on the standup or are they great on the ground? Do they have a tendency to foul? 'Cause we got some guys that like-

Joe Rogan 58:24 Yeah.

Mark Smith 58:24 ... to fight with their fingers extended a lot.

Joe Rogan 58:26 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 58:26 And I put that into my rules meeting of, you know, watched fingers, just what it's gonna be, fingers straight to the sky or make a fist, or if someone has a propensity to foul a lot, that may be something I'm gonna watch out for.

Joe Rogan 58:37 Now, when you see something like that, i- if you saw the arm break, you would have stopped it?

Mark Smith 58:42 I would have stopped it. You have to.

Joe Rogan 58:42 But look how bad it looks.

Mark Smith 58:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:45 It's so crazy how hyper-extended that thing is.

Mark Smith 58:48 Yeah. Now you got some folks that are super, double-jointed, and they will tell you-

Joe Rogan 58:53 Yeah.

Mark Smith 58:53 ... ahead of time, "Hey, I'm, I'm flexibility, I'm double-jointed."

Joe Rogan 58:56 Do you remember, uh, Royler Gracie versus Sakuraba?

Mark Smith 58:59 Mm. It... Was that with the-

Joe Rogan 59:01 He had him in a Kimura as well-

Mark Smith 59:03 Mm-mm.

Joe Rogan 59:03 ... and he got his arm, like, way wrapped up behind his back-

Mark Smith 59:06 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:06 ... but Royler has crazy joint flexibility.

Mark Smith 59:09 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:09 Like, it's really nuts, like... And he was like, "I'm fine, I'm fine," and they stopped the fight and he was furious, because his arm was like... Sakuraba is a catch wrestling guy, you know?

Mark Smith 59:18 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:18 So he, he's got a lot of those, like, old school double wrist lock techniques that are really brutal on the joints-

Mark Smith 59:24 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:24 ... and he's got his arm, like, deep up high on his back-

Mark Smith 59:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 59:27 ... and he's twisting it, but Royler was like, "I'm fine. I'm not tapping."

Mark Smith 59:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:31 And he won't tap, which is crazy.

Mark Smith 59:33 And it depends on the level. So, like, when we do Tough Enough, the amateur fights there?

Joe Rogan 59:37 Uh, yeah. That's it. Yeah. If he keeps going, you could see, that's only the beginning of it. Um, it got a lot worse. If you see Royler versus- That's all right. Sorry about that It's cool. that's all right. No, that is... That's the beginning of it. That's all right.

Mark Smith 59:49 Yeah, like at the amateur level, somebody could be in a choke, and if it's compromised, we may stop the fight. Or if they get stuck in an armbar or something, don't demonstrate the capability to get out of it.

Joe Rogan 59:57 Right, right, in the amateurs, yeah. So this is Royler's fight.

Mark Smith 1:00:02 That's Royler's.

Joe Rogan 1:00:03 That's Royler's. This is a different guy.

Mark Smith 1:00:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 (laughs)

Mark Smith 1:00:05 OG Royler.

Joe Rogan 1:00:06 Royler is much smaller. That's the problem with Sakuraba. Sakuraba is a big guy and Ro- Royler is fairly small.

Mark Smith 1:00:13 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 Royler's, like... I mean, he might be, like, 160.

Mark Smith 1:00:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Maybe.

Mark Smith 1:00:16 And, you know, it's different now because there are not fans in the UFC Apex or, you know, wherever some of these other people are doing. But if it's at, like, the T-Mobile or something, and you may hear something. You may hear a snap-

Joe Rogan 1:00:26 Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith 1:00:26 ... or someone may verbally submit.

Joe Rogan 1:00:28 Right.

Mark Smith 1:00:28 And if we stop it, man, the crowd will go crazy.

Joe Rogan 1:00:30 Right.

Mark Smith 1:00:30 They'll be ballistic. So we, you know, we count on... And one thing I've learned... So I did a UFC fight a couple years ago and I had a fighter bite somebody-... out of, you know ... Uh, who was it? Uh, Mowgli, I think, uh, Benitez. He was fighting somebody and the guy bit him. You know, he's trying to pull his chin up and he-

Joe Rogan 1:00:47 Oh, I remember that.

Mark Smith 1:00:48 And I said, "Stop." And I called time, and man, the fans went ballistic. And what I learned from that is the best thing