Joe Rogan Experience #1693 - Evan Hafer

1. 0:00 – 1:10

   Cheers, catching up, and the sudden ‘cancel culture from the right’

   1. EHEvan Hafer0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Evan.

   3. EHEvan Hafer0:13

      Hey, it's Joe, my friend.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Good to see you. How are you? Cheers.

   5. EHEvan Hafer0:14

      Great to see you, buddy.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Was, was that coffee? Or-

   7. EHEvan Hafer0:16

      It is coffee, but I- I just grabbed it-

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:18

      But both?

   9. EHEvan Hafer0:18

      ... 'cause it was here.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       You gotta, you gotta cheers.

   11. EHEvan Hafer0:19

       There we go.

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:19

       Cheers.

   13. EHEvan Hafer0:19

       Cheers.

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:20

       Booze to booze.

   15. EHEvan Hafer0:21

       Booze to booze.

   16. JRJoe Rogan0:21

       Booze to coffee seems odd. Mm-hmm.

   17. EHEvan Hafer0:22

       Hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan0:24

       So it's good seeing you, man.

   19. EHEvan Hafer0:24

       Oh, that's good.

   20. JRJoe Rogan0:26

       Yeah, so-

   21. EHEvan Hafer0:26

       God, it's great to see you, man.

   22. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       Good to see you. Still Austin. Shout out to Still Austin.

   23. EHEvan Hafer0:29

       God, that is good.

   24. JRJoe Rogan0:30

       It is good stuff. Made here, I think. I don't know. Maybe just, it's just the name. Uh, I really have no idea.

   25. EHEvan Hafer0:36

       So I, I feel like you're-

   26. JRJoe Rogan0:37

       It's good shit, though.

   27. EHEvan Hafer0:38

       ... like wining and dining me. I got cigars and whiskey.

   28. JRJoe Rogan0:41

       (laughs)

   29. EHEvan Hafer0:41

       This is gonna be a great episode, I hope.

   30. JRJoe Rogan0:43

       Yeah, man. Come on.
2. 1:10 – 2:19

   How misinformation snowballs: mistrust, rage, and looking for a bogeyman

   1. EHEvan Hafer1:10

      I, you know, I've tried to figure it out. I, and I haven't really spent a ton of time on it.

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:16

      (laughs)

   3. EHEvan Hafer1:16

      Other than ... Because, honestly, I got better shit to do with my life than figure out, like, what anonymous accounts in Twitters are s- you know-

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:24

      Right.

   5. EHEvan Hafer1:24

      ... in Twitter is saying, what about me. Uh, but I think, I think there's just such a mistrust with mainstream media. And that's bred this, uh, hyper divisive gaslighting on both sides. And I think conservatives at times are also looking for the conspiracy inside the party.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:45

      Mm.

   7. EHEvan Hafer1:45

      So they kind of spin themselves up a little bit. Uh, but it was such a strange scenario for me to be in because I think I've been so open for seven years, as like who we are, what we do. Uh, I, I haven't really held anything back. So I think it's, it's a combination of things going on. Like, people are super pissed off. Like, the pandemic has been a complete shitshow. You got a mistrust in the government, you got a mistrust in mainstream media. And you're looking for the bogeyman. And I mean, uh, it, it's, it's crazy to see misinformation being put out about yourself.

3. 2:19 – 6:31

   The New York Times profile: agreeing to the interview—and what got left out

   1. JRJoe Rogan2:19

      Did it start with the New York Times article?

   2. EHEvan Hafer2:21

      Yeah. (laughs) I-

   3. JRJoe Rogan2:22

      So what was the ... The New York Times article was like, "Black Rifle Coffee is the Starbucks of the right." Is that how they described it?

   4. EHEvan Hafer2:29

      Can they be.

   5. JRJoe Rogan2:30

      Oh, can they be the Starbucks-

   6. EHEvan Hafer2:31

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan2:32

      ... of the right? And where were, what was the negative part of that? Did you read the article?

   8. EHEvan Hafer2:35

      I, I did only because I was really interested to see how they're gonna represent the company. And, uh, we didn't ... So to rewind, we knew this story was going down months before. So I was down in Florida. I was bass fishing with, uh, Johnny Morris, who owns Bass Pro Shops.

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:55

      Oh.

   10. EHEvan Hafer2:55

       And, uh, Cabela's.

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:56

       Must be nice.

   12. EHEvan Hafer2:57

       (laughs) Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:58

       (laughs)

   14. EHEvan Hafer2:58

       He's a great guy. He's, he's awesome.

   15. JRJoe Rogan3:00

       Sure. If he owns those spots.

   16. EHEvan Hafer3:02

       Uh, and so ... Yeah, he knows exactly where the great bass are-

   17. JRJoe Rogan3:04

       Sure.

   18. EHEvan Hafer3:04

       ... believe it or not. Uh, so we were bass fishing. It was me, my business partner, Matt. And we get a call, "Hey, The Times is doing an article on you guys. Do you guys wanna sit for the interview?" And we're like, "Fuck you. No." Right? But then we started thinking about it. And I kind of debated it internally for a while. And I looked at other articles they had done on guys like Dave Portnoy. Th- I think you had had one, or at least in the past. And, you know, Don Junior, who is also a friend of mine. I'm like, "Hey man, I think if they're gonna do the story, I'll at least give them the opportunity to be objective and then really take a look at the company from the inside." I had no illusions as to what type of position they might take or how they would might misrepresent the company. It was at least I'll give them the opportunity. So it's kind of a fool me once type scenario where it's like, "Hey man, fool me once, sure. Not gonna get-

   19. JRJoe Rogan4:06

       Right.

   20. EHEvan Hafer4:06

       ... the second time." Um, so we debated it. And I was like, "I'll come," or, "Come on out and I'll take you to an, a veteran adaptive athlete shoot that we do. And you can talk to 30 plus wounded veterans and Black Rifle Coffee employees. And maybe you'll get a true feeling as to what this company does and what it means." Uh, that never pulled through the article, which I thought was a little bit disappointing. Uh-

   21. JRJoe Rogan4:39

       That wasn't in the article at all?

   22. EHEvan Hafer4:41

       There was a quick blurb about it. And it was representing kind of veterans as, you know, they were talking about the, the shirt that he was wearing. And you know, you're talking about somebody that lost their legs in combat. Uh, who gives a shit about what shirt they're wearing?

   23. JRJoe Rogan4:56

       Yeah.

   24. EHEvan Hafer4:56

       Uh, so ... But what I, the, the justification was I feel like I have an ethical responsibility to represent the veteran community and really use what I call earned media to shed light on what I think are the most important issues of the post 9/11 veteran community. So I'm fine with advertising my brand and, and marketing my brand outside of that. But if we have an opportunity with somebody like The Times to talk about what's happening in our peer group, like, what's happening along the lines of the psychological and physical issues with all the veterans that we hire, uh, 220 plus veterans that work inside the company, um, I felt it would be, uh, the ethically correct thing for me to do for the company and for the people there to tell their side of the story. Uh, I didn't have any illusions as to whether or not they were gonna paint the company in a certain light.... but I did feel it was really important to do that. Um, I don't think that that pulled through. There's a lot of things that didn't pull through in the article that I would have loved to have had in the article, but they didn't. I'm not writing it, right? Uh, that's the way the journalist views the world. So, I was- I was surprised to see all the kickback from, I think, conservatives, because now, all of a sudden, conservatives are reading and believing The New York Times. Like- (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan6:27

       So what was the- what was The Times' take on the company?

4. 6:31 – 9:47

   ‘Lucky’ vs relentless work: building BRCC under extreme pressure

   1. EHEvan Hafer6:31

      Um, well, I think the first piece that I- I really wouldn't agree with is the tonality. And I know that's a general term, but their perspective on it was that I'm just a lucky guy. I got lucky and I met, you know, Matt Best, and Matt Best was lucky in the fact that he was making, uh, viewed or watched viral videos, and he and I just kinda linked up and we got lucky, and that it felt really exploitive in the first part. Um... Man, I'll tell you, this- i- it's not been lucky. Uh, you know, I think luck is what you capitalize on after you put in a fuckton of hard work.

   2. JRJoe Rogan7:12

      Well, I've known you guys for years.

   3. EHEvan Hafer7:14

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan7:14

      And I knew you guys when the company wasn't nearly as big.

   5. EHEvan Hafer7:17

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JRJoe Rogan7:17

      So I've seen the progress, and I've seen the work. I've seen your factory.

   7. EHEvan Hafer7:22

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan7:22

      I've gone to the- the S- the place in Salt Lake where you showed me-

   9. EHEvan Hafer7:26

      (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan7:26

       ... the- the fucking- the coffee roaster-

   11. EHEvan Hafer7:28

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan7:28

       ... that you guys fabricated together and told me the story about it, and it's not luck.

   13. EHEvan Hafer7:33

       No.

   14. JRJoe Rogan7:33

       Like, anybody who says it's luck doesn't know you or is willfully misrepresenting the truth in order to paint a narrative that they already had established before they started the article.

   15. EHEvan Hafer7:43

       Bingo. They already had a narrative. Uh, they already had a narrative based on their readership that- and the way that they view the world, that this is the way they wanted to view the company.

   16. JRJoe Rogan7:53

       Yeah.

   17. EHEvan Hafer7:53

       And, you know-

   18. JRJoe Rogan7:55

       (sighs)

   19. EHEvan Hafer7:56

       ... what it doesn't tell you is, uh, and I- I've kind of put this into light for a lot of people. You know- you know my past. Like, I was a Green Beret, I worked for the CIA for a number of years. Uh, I have seven and a half years deployed in combat zones between Iraq and Afghanistan. And starting this business and running this business for seven years is the single hardest thing I've ever done. Uh, the first two years of the business, I had a Therm-a-Rest below my desk where I was only sleeping four, four and a half hours a night, to the point where, uh, my doctor was like, "Dude, you're gonna kill yourself. If you don't start sleeping, you're going to die." And you always hear this in our subculture, which is, you know, "Well, sleep when your dad," you know, "Toughen up." You know, w- there's- there's this drumbeat through the community at all times, which is, "You just gotta suck it up." And, uh, I live and breathe that. Just suck it up, you know? Do what it takes to complete the mission. Maintain maniacal focus on your goals, your objectives, and you do not finish until it's mission complete. That's the way I live my life. I'm a very serious character when it comes to the majority of what I do. Uh, the first few years of this business were so challenging because I was carrying a rifle in Afghanistan for a living. That's how, you know, I put a roof over my head. This is what I was doing for not only the best interest of, you know, my professional endeavors, but also the strategic interests of the United States. So the first few years of this were brutal. And when you distill it down to luck, it's- it's disingenuous and it takes away all the hard work and the- the sacrifice that you- that I had to make.

   20. JRJoe Rogan9:46

       Did you explain this to The Times? Did you explain?

5. 9:47 – 15:04

   Philanthropy and responsibility to veterans: why BRCC exists beyond profit

   1. EHEvan Hafer9:47

      Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We, you know, I talked a lot about, like, I had sold everything I owned. So, uh, probably year two, two and a half, uh, I hadn't taken any money out of the company because I am a capitalist at the end of the day, but capital means you're reinvesting the money that you make into the company to grow it. Um, and I think that's a clear differentiation, which is individual wealth and capital are two totally different things, but we can unpack that later. Um, but I sold everything. So I had a couple different homes, uh, every gun that I had, every- everything that was not bolted down was out the door and sold. I was running the company specifically on my personal credit cards, just trying to get this thing off the ground to the point where my wife didn't know why we were missing rent payments. You know, I'm coming home looking at my- you know, my kids, thinking, "There's not only no money in the bank, but we have $36,000 of credit card debt (laughs) and there's nothing left to sell." And I think that's the mentality that, one, you have to have in order to succeed, which is if you believe in yourself, you have to invest in yourself and you gotta take risks and you gotta push. I knew that we were gonna succeed. I knew it was going to take time, and I knew it was gonna be challenging. But until you're there, it's a lot different when you're risking the lives- when I say the life and comfort of your family than it is your life, limb, and your eyesight of the individual. The amount of stress and anxiety that that takes over years of compounding interest of investing in yourself, that's where the article missed it. Uh, and not only to be that economically challenged for those many years, I've always been able to give back to veteran nonprofits every year. So I didn't take any money out of the company for- for two years, but I was able to give back over- I think over the first couple years, like, 37, $38,000 back to veteran nonprofits because I'm... that's my commitment. And when I tell people that it's- I'm a capitalist that concentrates, uh, what I like to do with philanthropy back to my peer group. I think a lot of people don't necessarily understand it and they don't get it.... and there's no way for people to get a small snapshot in time, and to really kind of comprehend what we're doing on a daily basis, and why we're doing it.

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:24

      So when the article comes out, and you read their take on it-

   3. EHEvan Hafer12:28

      Mm-hmm.

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:29

      ... did you anticipate that there was gonna be blowback?

   5. EHEvan Hafer12:31

      No.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:32

      Y- you just thought like, "Okay, it's just another hit piece."

   7. EHEvan Hafer12:35

      (sighs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:35

      Was it all negative?

   9. EHEvan Hafer12:37

      No.

   10. JRJoe Rogan12:37

       Was there anything positive in it?

   11. EHEvan Hafer12:38

       No. I, I didn't even see it initially as a, as a hit piece. I didn't see it... I just saw it as a list of factual, semi-factual, and non-factual information, which-

   12. JRJoe Rogan12:48

       So they're trying to portray you in a certain light, but-

   13. EHEvan Hafer12:50

       Y- which al- it wasn't all that negative.

   14. JRJoe Rogan12:52

       ... right.

   15. EHEvan Hafer12:53

       It, it really wasn't. It was, it ... and it was as objective as he could be. I truly think that it was, uh, as objective as that guy can be, because that's the way he views the world.

   16. JRJoe Rogan13:04

       It's not just that.

   17. EHEvan Hafer13:05

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan13:05

       There's also editors.

   19. EHEvan Hafer13:06

       Correct.

   20. JRJoe Rogan13:06

       You know?

   21. EHEvan Hafer13:06

       Yeah, there's editors.

   22. JRJoe Rogan13:06

       I have a good friend of mine who used to be a writer over there.

   23. EHEvan Hafer13:08

       Right.

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:08

       And she was explaining to me what it's like to write there-

   25. EHEvan Hafer13:11

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JRJoe Rogan13:12

       ... and what it's like when you turn a story in, and how they change wor- uh, she was explaining words that they changed, and phrases that they changed, and things that she was trying to depict, they wouldn't let her.

   27. EHEvan Hafer13:22

       (smacks lips) Yeah, it ... and I think the first cut that I, I, I ran through it, um, you know, read it, I was like, "Oh, okay. Like, that's not as bad as I thought it was gonna be. Okay." I mean, I- (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan13:34

       (laughs)

   29. EHEvan Hafer13:34

       I was, I was fully expecting something just like, uh, you know, uh, totally misrepresenting the company and its values.

   30. JRJoe Rogan13:42

       Right.
6. 15:04 – 19:57

   Rittenhouse controversy: correcting the record gets spun into betrayal

   1. EHEvan Hafer15:04

      (laughs) Yeah. Well, I appreciate it. Uh, honestly, I think most of my friends that either read the article or know me were like, "This is complete bullshit. What, what is this, and how are people pulling this out of this article?" And I think the way that they tied in, uh, a couple of the last paragraphs, uh, which was they were ... what I was referring to in the last paragraph specifically was ... the conversation that's being referenced is... the writer and I are discussing, uh, racial hostility in America. And last year, the company was the recipient of, uh, an online attack from, uh, racist and antisemite, uh, antisemites, and because of my last name, because, uh, my last name is Jewish, uh, they were targeting us for a combination of reasons. And I was referring to that specific, or those two specific people, which was, "I don't want racists or antisemites buying my coffee," which I thought was ... like, n- nobody likes those people. I don't even think they like themselves-

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:11

      (laughs)

   3. EHEvan Hafer16:11

      ... to be honest with you, right? Like-

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:12

      Yeah.

   5. EHEvan Hafer16:13

      Nobody likes them.

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:14

      Right.

   7. EHEvan Hafer16:14

      Which I didn't think was very controversial. Uh, but what a lot of the bloggers picked up was that, uh, the portrayal that I was referring to my customers in that way, which like, I wasn't. I was directly referring to only racists and antisemites, and I said-

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:31

      And specifically the ones that attacked you guys.

   9. EHEvan Hafer16:32

      Correct, yeah, specifically those.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:34

       And this was after that kid ... what, what is his name again? The, the kid who was wearing the Black Rifle Coffee shirt.

   11. EHEvan Hafer16:40

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Kyle Rittenhouse, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:41

       Kyle Rittenhouse, yeah. When he was standing in the kitchen with Ricky Schroder after he got released, he was wearing a Black Rifle Coffee shirt.

   13. EHEvan Hafer16:48

       Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan16:48

       Which is like standard tactical bro outfit. Black Rifle-

   15. EHEvan Hafer16:53

       Sure.

   16. JRJoe Rogan16:53

       ... Coffee shirt, you know, a G-Shock watch, you know-

   17. EHEvan Hafer16:57

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JRJoe Rogan16:57

       ... what I mean? It's, it's like ... and he ... you know, this is the kid that showed up at a rally with, uh, th- what did he have, an AR?

   19. EHEvan Hafer17:06

       Yeah, and I think, you know, that's been unpacked so many times.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:10

       Yeah.

   21. EHEvan Hafer17:11

       And it's, you know, it's one of those things that people are debating, uh, across the internet, you know, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And what had happened was that NPR and a few other, like, mainstream media sources had reported that we had somehow sponsored him.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       Sponsored him. Right, right, right.

   23. EHEvan Hafer17:28

       And I had to clear it because-

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:30

       Right.

   25. EHEvan Hafer17:31

       ... listen, we weren't sponsoring him. Uh, but I wasn't making or weighing in on whether or not, uh, he was legal or ethical in his actions. I was just saying, "Hey, we didn't sponsor him." Uh, because that we had a, a lot of people that were, were flooding into the inboxes saying, you know, "How dare you?" and then the other side going, "Right on," and I was like, "One, I don't think it's ethically appropriate to profit from this event in any way."

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:57

       Right.

   27. EHEvan Hafer17:57

       Uh, I'm not weighing in and saying whether or not it was legal or justifiable. I'm just saying I don't think that we need to profit from this event, and it's just factual that we were not sponsoring him.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:08

       We weren't sponsoring, right.

   29. EHEvan Hafer18:08

       That was it.

   30. JRJoe Rogan18:09

       Right.
7. 19:57 – 27:52

   Fighting racism while being mislabeled: Afghan commando employees and ‘who we really are’

   1. EHEvan Hafer19:57

      (laughs) I identify as that guy, so I was purely stating within, you know, that entire conversation that probably lasted 20 minutes, like, "Hey, there's no room for racists or anti-Semites in my customer base."

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:09

      Right.

   3. EHEvan Hafer20:10

      "I'll pay them to leave if they exist." That's what I said.

   4. JRJoe Rogan20:13

      Yeah.

   5. EHEvan Hafer20:13

      And I stand by those words today. I don't like them. There's no room for them. There's no justifiable room for racists or anti-Semites specifically, I think, within-

   6. JRJoe Rogan20:21

      And if you care about conservatism, if you care about it succeeding, you want to eliminate all the problematic ideas that are associated with it.

   7. EHEvan Hafer20:29

      Correct.

   8. JRJoe Rogan20:30

      That's one that's associated with it.

   9. EHEvan Hafer20:31

      Correct.

   10. JRJoe Rogan20:31

       Racism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia, all those things are associated with it. I should just tell people, when I went to visit you in Salt Lake years ago, you have a ton of folks you brought over from Afghanistan-

   11. EHEvan Hafer20:45

       Yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan20:46

       ... working at your factory when you saved their lives and brought them over to America when they were in trouble, when they were being chased down because they worked with US troops over there.

   13. EHEvan Hafer20:58

       Well, yeah, and who you're talking about is Wali Taslim-

   14. JRJoe Rogan21:01

       Mm-hmm.

   15. EHEvan Hafer21:01

       ... and, uh, the other guys that, that are working specifically in our print and our facility in Salt Lake. Uh, Wali Taslim was an Afghan commando. He joined the army right after, and when I say the, the Afghan army, right after our invasion in, I believe it was, like, uh, October or November 2001, like, right after. So right when, uh, the CIA and Special Forces invaded Afghanistan, Wali Taslim, uh, was one of the guys that joined up right away. So he went from a 16-year-old kid to, he was, by the time that he left, I believe that was, uh, 2014 or '15. So he had been directly involved in, uh, direct action missions across Afghanistan for over 11 years. He- and he went from a private to a commander. Uh, his story is incredible, and so when we talk about where the, the Times might have missed some incredible, like, enlightening stories, talk about the Afghan refugees that used to be commandos that fought for us for over a decade. Wali Taslim has over 1500 direct action missions. The guy has breached more doors for the United States than most of the special operations guys that I know. He not only did that, but he had to move about every six months for the last two years that he was in Afghanistan, because he was getting, uh... He had been in multiple ambushes with his wife and family in his car. He had to hide his identity. He was running from the Taliban basically full time. Then he sought and received refugee status. He came to the United States. Back in 2016, we thought Wali had been killed. So my business partner and I, uh, we kept in contact with a lot of the Afghans, and we heard that he had been killed in an ambush. One day, this guy pings us on Facebook and says, "Hey guys, it's Wali. (laughs) I'm, I'm in Baltimore." And we're like, "Whatever. Are you serious?" Instantly, we're like, "Get on a plane. Get to Salt Lake." So we got him a house. We brought him and his family out here, uh, gave him a job. It's like, "You have a job. Get out of Baltimore." What was happening in Baltimore is he was living in public housing, and he was being discriminated against in public housing in Baltimore. He was being called a terrorist. His kids were being called a terrorist. They were being picked on. So we jumped on a plane, and we're like, "Get out. Let's go. You're coming with us." Not only that, but, "Tell me where the other guys are. Where are they?" He's like, "I got a few guys in San Francisco. I got a few guys here." "Okay, offer them all jobs right now. Like, they're all coming here." Uh, so it's, it's, it's extremely offensive for a combination of reasons, right? Which is, I have no place for, uh, in my company, or even in my own life, for, like, discriminatory behavior in that regard, right? These are the guys that have been fighting to the left and to the right with us for over 20 years in these countries that we've been directly involved in clandestine and overt warfare. They've risked their lives, their limbs, their eyesight, which means the same as mine, and we owe them an incredible amount of gratitude. Uh, and it would be directly misrepresented if I placated in any regard that type of behavior in the company, because it's not who we are. Uh...And Wally is just one of a handful of guys that we continue to not only hire, but bring in, and then we hire them a, a English tutor. We're putting them through the process of becoming a, a US citizen, so we hire the attorneys that is required for that to walk them through the process. They've got to test and evaluate. Uh, it's something that we're, we're really proud of, and not only are we really proud of, it's a really rich and incredible story about how these guys have come to the United States and been successful within a veteran owned and operated company that we were fighting together 10 years ago, and now we're roasting coffee in the United States together now, which is fucking nuts, dude. It's so... Like, that kind of stuff makes me so happy, and it fires me up that, you know, Brown Water can do that?

   16. JRJoe Rogan25:23

       (laughs) Yeah.

   17. EHEvan Hafer25:24

       Like, it's fucking incredible, man.

   18. JRJoe Rogan25:27

       It i- it is incredible, and I think stories like that, the only way to tell a story like that is to just tell it. I don't think someone writing it is ever going to capture all of the fascinating aspects of it, all of the inspirational aspects of it, the human aspects of it. You know, it, it's, this is what I know about you guys, so when-

   19. EHEvan Hafer25:52

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JRJoe Rogan25:53

       ... I, when I see th- first of all, we're friends-

   21. EHEvan Hafer25:55

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan25:57

       ... but also, like, when I see someone misrepresenting a company that I think is one of the most noble companies that I- I- I've ever come across, that the amount of time that you guys spent, um, trying to, to help first responders, military, police, I know what you guys do. So when I see you misrepresented by conservatives, and I'm not even conservative-

   23. EHEvan Hafer26:19

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan26:19

       So I see that shit, and I'm like, "Well, you fucking idiots."

   25. EHEvan Hafer26:22

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan26:22

       Like, what are you doing? You're doing the same thing that you accuse the people on the left of doing, and it's all, it's all nuts.

   27. EHEvan Hafer26:28

       It's, it's wild, man. I, it is, and, uh, uh, you know, as, as I kind of evolve in the last seven years, you know, I've, I've looked at the, especially the social media landscape and how hostile-

   28. JRJoe Rogan26:44

       Yeah.

   29. EHEvan Hafer26:44

       ... it's become. It's a really toxic environment. Uh-

   30. JRJoe Rogan26:48

       It's wild. (laughs)
8. 27:52 – 36:34

   Why social media breaks humans: clip culture, anger, fear, and isolation

   1. JRJoe Rogan27:52

      But it shows you how easy someone can get smeared. Even s- a company that's as impeccable, uh, has such an impeccable reputation as yours can get smeared online in this weird climate. And part of me is like, well, what... There's... And I would like to think there's some grand conspiracy involved, right?

   2. EHEvan Hafer28:09

      Right.

   3. JRJoe Rogan28:09

      But I think it's more that the way people communicate on social media is so ineffective and shitty. It's such a bad way to disseminate ideas.

   4. EHEvan Hafer28:22

      It is.

   5. JRJoe Rogan28:22

      It's not a bad way to get headlines out there, like, you know, "Bombs dropped on Syria."

   6. EHEvan Hafer28:28

      Right.

   7. JRJoe Rogan28:28

      Okay. That's, like, show some footage. Okay, here it is. But, like, even, like, video clips. Uh, have you bi- been paying attention to... There was a, uh, cop that was frisking a guy, uh, pulled, uh, an empty baggie out of his pocket, and threw it in the backseat of a, of a car.

   8. EHEvan Hafer28:47

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JRJoe Rogan28:47

      Just pulled the baggie out and chucked it in the car while he's frisking this guy, and it's like, "You just planted evidence in the car." And if you... And then the e- the cop explains it, "No, I didn't. First of all, the bag is empty. Second of all, he had it in his pocket," and you see his camera-

   10. EHEvan Hafer29:02

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan29:02

       ... the cop's camera pull this bag outta this guy's pocket and drop in the backseat of the car. They took the clip of the cop throwing the baggie in the car and the other guy saying, "You just planted evidence." And then all throughout the internet, like, "Look at this evidence-"

   12. EHEvan Hafer29:19

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan29:19

       "... of this cop planting this fucking baggie in this guy's car. Oh my god, these cops are pieces of shit. They, they were, they were trying to set this guy up." And everybody started attacking the police. Everybody started attacking the, "This is why people don't trust the police." And I saw it just shared thousands of times.

   14. EHEvan Hafer29:35

       Right.

   15. JRJoe Rogan29:35

       And then the full video came out, and in the full video, you actually see the police officer explain it. You see exactly what happened. And you're like, "Fuck, this is social media in a nutshell."

   16. EHEvan Hafer29:45

       Mm-hmm.

   17. JRJoe Rogan29:45

       "This is the, the, the madness of how people exchange information online." It's a bad way to communicate. It's a bad way to go back and forth. It's not designed for human beings.

   18. EHEvan Hafer29:56

       No.

   19. JRJoe Rogan29:56

       It's like human beings trying to interface with something that's devoid of emotion, and it's devoid of context. It's devoid of, uh, social cues and the, the normal interactions between two human beings.

   20. EHEvan Hafer30:09

       Yeah, and I think... I, I was thinking about this the other day, that there's a lot of people that are... Like, fear is a driving factor right now, right? You have a lot of fear that's floating around the United States internationally because of, I think, the way the media portrays a lot of different events. You know, every year there's been some type of-... catastrophic thing that the media's been able to pick up and really escalate. Uh, but then you have these devices, right? Where people are seeking emotion. They want a connection with people. And they can't get it from this.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:44

       Right.

   22. EHEvan Hafer30:45

       But when your default emotion is anger, because it's a really easy emotion to default to, you can't get a connection of love or, uh, you know, a, a meaningful emotion out of it. But it's really easy to make a connection with somebody online and default to anger, kind of get explosive and connected. Uh, I think there's a lot of people that are really just disconnected, and they're searching for some type of human interaction, and they're never gonna get it from an electronic device.

   23. JRJoe Rogan31:20

       Right.

   24. EHEvan Hafer31:21

       And so I don't blame that. I think that right now, we're in this really strange predicament as a country, where people are feeling isolated and alone, and they're connected to their electronic devices more than they ever have been. But it's, it's a toxic environment if you're trying to connect with people in a, uh, when I say a negative way, and then band together and then enhance that emotion once again. Uh, I know that's probably an oversimplification, but you're not gonna be able to c- c- connect with a technology device. It's just never gonna happen.

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:53

       No. In this past year and a half, unfortunately because of the pandemic, there's much more distance between people-

   26. EHEvan Hafer32:00

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JRJoe Rogan32:00

       ... in terms of like, people aren't getting together as, as ... Well, at least they weren't for a long time. They're kind of doing it now. But they, they were not getting together and talking. People were sharing things through phones, and most of the communication was through text. They're not even calling each other, right?

   28. EHEvan Hafer32:17

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan32:17

       And then Zoom, like, people are having Zoom meetings and shit. So it's like, the disconnect ... I was, like, thinking about it, like if there was a ... If, if you had an artificial intelligence that was trying to get human beings to abandon everything that makes you human, like what better way than a virus that makes you scared of other people?

   30. EHEvan Hafer32:38

       Right.
9. 36:34 – 49:15

   Pandemic politics: vaccine passports, ‘rules for thee,’ and distrust in institutions

   1. EHEvan Hafer36:34

      I think that's the great thing about, uh, uh, not the great thing about the pandemic, don't get me wrong. I'm, I'm saying the one silver lining that we should all be taking from this, is we get to see how fucking stupid politicians are.

   2. JRJoe Rogan36:46

      Yes. Yes.

   3. EHEvan Hafer36:47

      This is like, this has pulled the curtain back and-

   4. JRJoe Rogan36:50

      Yes.

   5. EHEvan Hafer36:50

      ... we get to see just how ridiculous they are. And that's where I start to look and think about individual liberty. And I start to think, why would you ever want to forfeit your freedom to one of these idiots-

   6. JRJoe Rogan37:05

      Yes.

   7. EHEvan Hafer37:05

      ... that has control over what you or your family or your business does? Because if we've learned anything in the last year and a half, is that these people can't be trusted with, uh, a squeezy bottle.

   8. JRJoe Rogan37:18

      Right.

   9. EHEvan Hafer37:18

      Like, we-

   10. JRJoe Rogan37:19

       With anything.

   11. EHEvan Hafer37:19

       ... we can't trust them with the keys to the car.

   12. JRJoe Rogan37:21

       No.

   13. EHEvan Hafer37:21

       I wouldn't give them a '98 Cutlass with 180,000 miles to watch.

   14. JRJoe Rogan37:26

       (laughs)

   15. EHEvan Hafer37:26

       Most of them are so fucking incompetent-

   16. JRJoe Rogan37:28

       Yeah.

   17. EHEvan Hafer37:29

       ... that I wouldn't trust them to wash a dish.

   18. JRJoe Rogan37:32

       Right.

   19. EHEvan Hafer37:33

       And it amazes me when I look around, I'm like, "Why are you guys so interested?"

   20. JRJoe Rogan37:37

       You need to watch this.

   21. EHEvan Hafer37:38

       Oh.

   22. JRJoe Rogan37:38

       Pull it back from the beginning. Do it from the beginning. Give me some volume.

   23. EHEvan Hafer37:43

       (laughs)

   24. NANarrator37:44

       (upbeat music) We need a recovery that brings back the life and the heart and the energy of this city, and that everyone gets to be a part of. And if we're going to do that, we're going to really bring back the heart and soul of New York City. We need our arts and culture back, and we need people to see it and feel it, to participate in it.

   25. EHEvan Hafer38:00

       (laughs) Yeah. Hell yeah.

   26. NANarrator38:00

       To know that that essence of New York City-

   27. EHEvan Hafer38:03

       Look at how bad this dancing is. (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan38:05

       Yeah.

   29. EHEvan Hafer38:05

       And they're wearing masks outside.

   30. NANarrator38:07

       ... but will come back strong in 2021.
10. 49:15 – 1:18:29

    Liberty, skepticism, and history: reservations ‘for your protection’ as a warning signal

    1. EHEvan Hafer49:15

       Well, it's kind of hilarious that people won't try on skepticism in general. Like, they need to be more skeptical. They need to push people in authority and power and hold them accountable for their words and their actions. And there's this reluctancy, I think across the board, to question power either on both sides, right? So it's like the blue likes to question red, red likes to question blue.

    2. JRJoe Rogan49:42

       Right.

    3. EHEvan Hafer49:42

       But now you'll follow lockstep in party line if one is saying something or the other.

    4. JRJoe Rogan49:49

       Yes.

    5. EHEvan Hafer49:49

       That's a fucking problem. To, to your point, I was reading, uh, I was reading the, the History of the Nez Perce Indian Tribe, and I've read a few books on this just recently. I'm from northern Idaho where, where the Nez Perce Indian Tribe-

    6. JRJoe Rogan50:01

       Ferocious people.

    7. EHEvan Hafer50:02

       Amazing.

    8. JRJoe Rogan50:03

       Yeah.

    9. EHEvan Hafer50:03

       Like amazing warriors.

    10. JRJoe Rogan50:04

        Amazing.

    11. EHEvan Hafer50:04

        Chief Joseph was an incredible leader, uh, incredible history. But it struck me, there, there's a, there's one chapter in the books that I was reading about how the US, uh, cavalry, they were putting the Native Americans on reservations for their protection. And I'm not trying to equate this-

    12. JRJoe Rogan50:24

        Hmm.

    13. EHEvan Hafer50:24

        ... in, in direct correlation, but this was part of the narrative.

    14. JRJoe Rogan50:28

        I understand, yeah.

    15. EHEvan Hafer50:28

        Because they were saying, "We want to put you guys on reservations to protect you from the saddlers and from, uh, retaliation. So we want to put you guys on this, you know, 400 square reservation, 400-mile square reservation for your protection." And they're like, "Dude, we want to be free." (laughs)

    16. JRJoe Rogan50:47

        Yeah.

    17. EHEvan Hafer50:47

        "I don't know what you're talking about." And, uh, they go in and, and they trace the over 1,000 miles that Chief Joseph led his, his, uh, his tribe through Idaho and Montana and then up close to the, uh, the Canadian border. But I couldn't help but think about there's one sliver of history in the late 1800s, which in 1873 I believe it was, which was also connected to the, the son of, uh, Meriwether Lewis was also part of the, the Nez Perce Indian Tribe because he had a son there. But I thought about how us not, us as a country, how we need to be pushed to ask more questions and we deserve more answers, and we have to hold skepticism, I think, in a very high regard, and we can't beat it down. I think any time that you question authority, it's a good thing, especially as a society, because it also says that you have a healthy society. If you have this complex narrative, you know, moving up from underneath, I, I think the, the groundswell of information from people, you can have these complex discussions, but you also have to have very good answers to what's going on. I think you've got conflicting information that's being politicized and it's being gaslit by both sides of the media. Which I don't blame people for being pissed off and confused, because, man, I'm confused.

    18. JRJoe Rogan52:15

        Yeah.

    19. EHEvan Hafer52:16

        Like, this is confusing as shit. The CDC releases something, the president will say something else, some random governor somewhere that I've never heard of will say something else, and you're like, "What the hell is going on?"

    20. JRJoe Rogan52:26

        What is going on? Yeah.

    21. EHEvan Hafer52:27

        Yeah, that's, that's why I listen to, uh, Kristelle and Saagar, because they-

    22. JRJoe Rogan52:30

        Yeah.

    23. EHEvan Hafer52:30

        ... they typically know what, what's going on.

    24. JRJoe Rogan52:31

        Well, they typically know what's going on, and they're, they're a great example because that show Breaking Points, you got Saagar, who's on the right, and Kristelle, who's on the left, but they're good friends.

    25. EHEvan Hafer52:41

        They're good.

    26. JRJoe Rogan52:41

        They get along well, and they're both super honest and objective, rational and intelligent, and they can discuss all the finer points of these issues honestly, openly.

    27. EHEvan Hafer52:53

        Mm-hmm.

    28. JRJoe Rogan52:53

        And it's, that's why they're thriving.

    29. EHEvan Hafer52:56

        Yeah.

    30. JRJoe Rogan52:56

        It's why CNN, like some of their shows, they're-
11. 1:18:29 – 1:32:39

    Political homelessness and the two-party trap: Tulsi, debates, and breaking the lock

    1. EHEvan Hafer1:18:29

       Mm-hmm. So I got a question for you, then. Because of this, do you think that your political or individual ideology, do you think that you fit into a political party in America today?

    2. JRJoe Rogan1:18:44

       Definitely not.

    3. EHEvan Hafer1:18:45

       Right.

    4. JRJoe Rogan1:18:45

       No, I'm, I am such a fucking homeless person when it comes-

    5. EHEvan Hafer1:18:49

       Yeah.

    6. JRJoe Rogan1:18:49

       ... to politics. I am liberal in every social way. First of all, when I was a kid, my family, my parents were hippies. Um, we were on welfare. We, y- had food stamps. Like, that was what kept my family alive when I was a small boy. I remember it very clearly. I remember going to the supermarket and my parents buying food with food stamps. I remember being embarrassed that we drank powdered milk. I remember being on welfare.... you know, but they got out of that. They worked their way out of that situation. They used government assistance in the best possible way and went on to, to live a fulfilled and happy and successful life. I saw it happen.

Episode duration: 3:07:22