EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,144 words- 0:00 – 2:19
Cheers, cigars, and why Joe wanted Evan on the show
- EHEvan Hafer
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music plays) Hello, Evan.
- EHEvan Hafer
Hey, it's Joe, my friend.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you. How are you? Cheers.
- EHEvan Hafer
Great to see you, buddy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was, was that coffee? Or-
- EHEvan Hafer
It is coffee, but I- I just grabbed it-
- JRJoe Rogan
But both?
- EHEvan Hafer
... 'cause it was here.
- JRJoe Rogan
You gotta, you gotta cheers.
- EHEvan Hafer
There we go.
- JRJoe Rogan
Cheers.
- EHEvan Hafer
Cheers.
- JRJoe Rogan
Booze to booze.
- EHEvan Hafer
Booze to booze.
- JRJoe Rogan
Booze to coffee seems odd. Mm-hmm.
- EHEvan Hafer
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So it's good seeing you, man.
- EHEvan Hafer
Oh, that's good.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, so-
- EHEvan Hafer
God, it's great to see you, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
Good to see you. Still Austin. Shout out to Still Austin.
- EHEvan Hafer
God, that is good.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is good stuff. Made here, I think. I don't know. Maybe just, it's just the name. Uh, I really have no idea.
- EHEvan Hafer
So I, I feel like you're-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's good shit, though.
- EHEvan Hafer
... like wining and dining me. I got cigars and whiskey.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- EHEvan Hafer
This is gonna be a great episode, I hope.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, man. Come on.
- 2:19 – 6:31
The New York Times profile: what it got wrong (and why Evan agreed to it)
- JRJoe Rogan
Did it start with the New York Times article?
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah. (laughs) I-
- JRJoe Rogan
So what was the ... The New York Times article was like, "Black Rifle Coffee is the Starbucks of the right." Is that how they described it?
- EHEvan Hafer
Can they be.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, can they be the Starbucks-
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... of the right? And where were, what was the negative part of that? Did you read the article?
- EHEvan Hafer
I, I did only because I was really interested to see how they're gonna represent the company. And, uh, we didn't ... So to rewind, we knew this story was going down months before. So I was down in Florida. I was bass fishing with, uh, Johnny Morris, who owns Bass Pro Shops.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- EHEvan Hafer
And, uh, Cabela's.
- JRJoe Rogan
Must be nice.
- EHEvan Hafer
(laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- EHEvan Hafer
He's a great guy. He's, he's awesome.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure. If he owns those spots.
- EHEvan Hafer
Uh, and so ... Yeah, he knows exactly where the great bass are-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure.
- EHEvan Hafer
... believe it or not. Uh, so we were bass fishing. It was me, my business partner, Matt. And we get a call, "Hey, The Times is doing an article on you guys. Do you guys wanna sit for the interview?" And we're like, "Fuck you. No." Right? But then we started thinking about it. And I kind of debated it internally for a while. And I looked at other articles they had done on guys like Dave Portnoy. Th- I think you had had one, or at least in the past. And, you know, Don Junior, who is also a friend of mine. I'm like, "Hey man, I think if they're gonna do the story, I'll at least give them the opportunity to be objective and then really take a look at the company from the inside." I had no illusions as to what type of position they might take or how they would might misrepresent the company. It was at least I'll give them the opportunity. So it's kind of a fool me once type scenario where it's like, "Hey man, fool me once, sure. Not gonna get-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
... the second time." Um, so we debated it. And I was like, "I'll come," or, "Come on out and I'll take you to an, a veteran adaptive athlete shoot that we do. And you can talk to 30 plus wounded veterans and Black Rifle Coffee employees. And maybe you'll get a true feeling as to what this company does and what it means." Uh, that never pulled through the article, which I thought was a little bit disappointing. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
That wasn't in the article at all?
- EHEvan Hafer
There was a quick blurb about it. And it was representing kind of veterans as, you know, they were talking about the, the shirt that he was wearing. And you know, you're talking about somebody that lost their legs in combat. Uh, who gives a shit about what shirt they're wearing?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
Uh, so ... But what I, the, the justification was I feel like I have an ethical responsibility to represent the veteran community and really use what I call earned media to shed light on what I think are the most important issues of the post 9/11 veteran community. So I'm fine with advertising my brand and, and marketing my brand outside of that. But if we have an opportunity with somebody like The Times to talk about what's happening in our peer group, like, what's happening along the lines of the psychological and physical issues with all the veterans that we hire, uh, 220 plus veterans that work inside the company, um, I felt it would be, uh, the ethically correct thing for me to do for the company and for the people there to tell their side of the story. Uh, I didn't have any illusions as to whether or not they were gonna paint the company in a certain light.... but I did feel it was really important to do that. Um, I don't think that that pulled through. There's a lot of things that didn't pull through in the article that I would have loved to have had in the article, but they didn't. I'm not writing it, right? Uh, that's the way the journalist views the world. So, I was- I was surprised to see all the kickback from, I think, conservatives, because now, all of a sudden, conservatives are reading and believing The New York Times. Like- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
So what was the- what was The Times' take on the company?
- 6:31 – 15:04
"Luck" vs sacrifice: building Black Rifle Coffee the hard way
- EHEvan Hafer
Um, well, I think the first piece that I- I really wouldn't agree with is the tonality. And I know that's a general term, but their perspective on it was that I'm just a lucky guy. I got lucky and I met, you know, Matt Best, and Matt Best was lucky in the fact that he was making, uh, viewed or watched viral videos, and he and I just kinda linked up and we got lucky, and that it felt really exploitive in the first part. Um... Man, I'll tell you, this- i- it's not been lucky. Uh, you know, I think luck is what you capitalize on after you put in a fuckton of hard work.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I've known you guys for years.
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And I knew you guys when the company wasn't nearly as big.
- EHEvan Hafer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
So I've seen the progress, and I've seen the work. I've seen your factory.
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I've gone to the- the S- the place in Salt Lake where you showed me-
- EHEvan Hafer
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... the- the fucking- the coffee roaster-
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that you guys fabricated together and told me the story about it, and it's not luck.
- EHEvan Hafer
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, anybody who says it's luck doesn't know you or is willfully misrepresenting the truth in order to paint a narrative that they already had established before they started the article.
- EHEvan Hafer
Bingo. They already had a narrative. Uh, they already had a narrative based on their readership that- and the way that they view the world, that this is the way they wanted to view the company.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
And, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
(sighs)
- EHEvan Hafer
... what it doesn't tell you is, uh, and I- I've kind of put this into light for a lot of people. You know- you know my past. Like, I was a Green Beret, I worked for the CIA for a number of years. Uh, I have seven and a half years deployed in combat zones between Iraq and Afghanistan. And starting this business and running this business for seven years is the single hardest thing I've ever done. Uh, the first two years of the business, I had a Therm-a-Rest below my desk where I was only sleeping four, four and a half hours a night, to the point where, uh, my doctor was like, "Dude, you're gonna kill yourself. If you don't start sleeping, you're going to die." And you always hear this in our subculture, which is, you know, "Well, sleep when your dad," you know, "Toughen up." You know, w- there's- there's this drumbeat through the community at all times, which is, "You just gotta suck it up." And, uh, I live and breathe that. Just suck it up, you know? Do what it takes to complete the mission. Maintain maniacal focus on your goals, your objectives, and you do not finish until it's mission complete. That's the way I live my life. I'm a very serious character when it comes to the majority of what I do. Uh, the first few years of this business were so challenging because I was carrying a rifle in Afghanistan for a living. That's how, you know, I put a roof over my head. This is what I was doing for not only the best interest of, you know, my professional endeavors, but also the strategic interests of the United States. So the first few years of this were brutal. And when you distill it down to luck, it's- it's disingenuous and it takes away all the hard work and the- the sacrifice that you- that I had to make.
- JRJoe Rogan
Did you explain this to The Times? Did you explain?
- EHEvan Hafer
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We, you know, I talked a lot about, like, I had sold everything I owned. So, uh, probably year two, two and a half, uh, I hadn't taken any money out of the company because I am a capitalist at the end of the day, but capital means you're reinvesting the money that you make into the company to grow it. Um, and I think that's a clear differentiation, which is individual wealth and capital are two totally different things, but we can unpack that later. Um, but I sold everything. So I had a couple different homes, uh, every gun that I had, every- everything that was not bolted down was out the door and sold. I was running the company specifically on my personal credit cards, just trying to get this thing off the ground to the point where my wife didn't know why we were missing rent payments. You know, I'm coming home looking at my- you know, my kids, thinking, "There's not only no money in the bank, but we have $36,000 of credit card debt (laughs) and there's nothing left to sell." And I think that's the mentality that, one, you have to have in order to succeed, which is if you believe in yourself, you have to invest in yourself and you gotta take risks and you gotta push. I knew that we were gonna succeed. I knew it was going to take time, and I knew it was gonna be challenging. But until you're there, it's a lot different when you're risking the lives- when I say the life and comfort of your family than it is your life, limb, and your eyesight of the individual. The amount of stress and anxiety that that takes over years of compounding interest of investing in yourself, that's where the article missed it. Uh, and not only to be that economically challenged for those many years, I've always been able to give back to veteran nonprofits every year. So I didn't take any money out of the company for- for two years, but I was able to give back over- I think over the first couple years, like, 37, $38,000 back to veteran nonprofits because I'm... that's my commitment. And when I tell people that it's- I'm a capitalist that concentrates, uh, what I like to do with philanthropy back to my peer group. I think a lot of people don't necessarily understand it and they don't get it.... and there's no way for people to get a small snapshot in time, and to really kind of comprehend what we're doing on a daily basis, and why we're doing it.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when the article comes out, and you read their take on it-
- EHEvan Hafer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... did you anticipate that there was gonna be blowback?
- EHEvan Hafer
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Y- you just thought like, "Okay, it's just another hit piece."
- EHEvan Hafer
(sighs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Was it all negative?
- EHEvan Hafer
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
Was there anything positive in it?
- 15:04 – 20:31
How a quote became a smear: racists, antisemites, and the Rittenhouse swirl
- EHEvan Hafer
(laughs) Yeah. Well, I appreciate it. Uh, honestly, I think most of my friends that either read the article or know me were like, "This is complete bullshit. What, what is this, and how are people pulling this out of this article?" And I think the way that they tied in, uh, a couple of the last paragraphs, uh, which was they were ... what I was referring to in the last paragraph specifically was ... the conversation that's being referenced is... the writer and I are discussing, uh, racial hostility in America. And last year, the company was the recipient of, uh, an online attack from, uh, racist and antisemite, uh, antisemites, and because of my last name, because, uh, my last name is Jewish, uh, they were targeting us for a combination of reasons. And I was referring to that specific, or those two specific people, which was, "I don't want racists or antisemites buying my coffee," which I thought was ... like, n- nobody likes those people. I don't even think they like themselves-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- EHEvan Hafer
... to be honest with you, right? Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
Nobody likes them.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
Which I didn't think was very controversial. Uh, but what a lot of the bloggers picked up was that, uh, the portrayal that I was referring to my customers in that way, which like, I wasn't. I was directly referring to only racists and antisemites, and I said-
- JRJoe Rogan
And specifically the ones that attacked you guys.
- EHEvan Hafer
Correct, yeah, specifically those.
- JRJoe Rogan
And this was after that kid ... what, what is his name again? The, the kid who was wearing the Black Rifle Coffee shirt.
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, Kyle Rittenhouse, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Kyle Rittenhouse, yeah. When he was standing in the kitchen with Ricky Schroder after he got released, he was wearing a Black Rifle Coffee shirt.
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is like standard tactical bro outfit. Black Rifle-
- EHEvan Hafer
Sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Coffee shirt, you know, a G-Shock watch, you know-
- EHEvan Hafer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... what I mean? It's, it's like ... and he ... you know, this is the kid that showed up at a rally with, uh, th- what did he have, an AR?
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah, and I think, you know, that's been unpacked so many times.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
And it's, you know, it's one of those things that people are debating, uh, across the internet, you know, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. And what had happened was that NPR and a few other, like, mainstream media sources had reported that we had somehow sponsored him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Sponsored him. Right, right, right.
- EHEvan Hafer
And I had to clear it because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
... listen, we weren't sponsoring him. Uh, but I wasn't making or weighing in on whether or not, uh, he was legal or ethical in his actions. I was just saying, "Hey, we didn't sponsor him." Uh, because that we had a, a lot of people that were, were flooding into the inboxes saying, you know, "How dare you?" and then the other side going, "Right on," and I was like, "One, I don't think it's ethically appropriate to profit from this event in any way."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
Uh, I'm not weighing in and saying whether or not it was legal or justifiable. I'm just saying I don't think that we need to profit from this event, and it's just factual that we were not sponsoring him.
- JRJoe Rogan
We weren't sponsoring, right.
- EHEvan Hafer
That was it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 20:31 – 27:52
Veteran mission beyond coffee: Afghan commando refugees and hiring pipeline
- JRJoe Rogan
Racism, anti-Semitism, xenophobia, all those things are associated with it. I should just tell people, when I went to visit you in Salt Lake years ago, you have a ton of folks you brought over from Afghanistan-
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... working at your factory when you saved their lives and brought them over to America when they were in trouble, when they were being chased down because they worked with US troops over there.
- EHEvan Hafer
Well, yeah, and who you're talking about is Wali Taslim-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- EHEvan Hafer
... and, uh, the other guys that, that are working specifically in our print and our facility in Salt Lake. Uh, Wali Taslim was an Afghan commando. He joined the army right after, and when I say the, the Afghan army, right after our invasion in, I believe it was, like, uh, October or November 2001, like, right after. So right when, uh, the CIA and Special Forces invaded Afghanistan, Wali Taslim, uh, was one of the guys that joined up right away. So he went from a 16-year-old kid to, he was, by the time that he left, I believe that was, uh, 2014 or '15. So he had been directly involved in, uh, direct action missions across Afghanistan for over 11 years. He- and he went from a private to a commander. Uh, his story is incredible, and so when we talk about where the, the Times might have missed some incredible, like, enlightening stories, talk about the Afghan refugees that used to be commandos that fought for us for over a decade. Wali Taslim has over 1500 direct action missions. The guy has breached more doors for the United States than most of the special operations guys that I know. He not only did that, but he had to move about every six months for the last two years that he was in Afghanistan, because he was getting, uh... He had been in multiple ambushes with his wife and family in his car. He had to hide his identity. He was running from the Taliban basically full time. Then he sought and received refugee status. He came to the United States. Back in 2016, we thought Wali had been killed. So my business partner and I, uh, we kept in contact with a lot of the Afghans, and we heard that he had been killed in an ambush. One day, this guy pings us on Facebook and says, "Hey guys, it's Wali. (laughs) I'm, I'm in Baltimore." And we're like, "Whatever. Are you serious?" Instantly, we're like, "Get on a plane. Get to Salt Lake." So we got him a house. We brought him and his family out here, uh, gave him a job. It's like, "You have a job. Get out of Baltimore." What was happening in Baltimore is he was living in public housing, and he was being discriminated against in public housing in Baltimore. He was being called a terrorist. His kids were being called a terrorist. They were being picked on. So we jumped on a plane, and we're like, "Get out. Let's go. You're coming with us." Not only that, but, "Tell me where the other guys are. Where are they?" He's like, "I got a few guys in San Francisco. I got a few guys here." "Okay, offer them all jobs right now. Like, they're all coming here." Uh, so it's, it's, it's extremely offensive for a combination of reasons, right? Which is, I have no place for, uh, in my company, or even in my own life, for, like, discriminatory behavior in that regard, right? These are the guys that have been fighting to the left and to the right with us for over 20 years in these countries that we've been directly involved in clandestine and overt warfare. They've risked their lives, their limbs, their eyesight, which means the same as mine, and we owe them an incredible amount of gratitude. Uh, and it would be directly misrepresented if I placated in any regard that type of behavior in the company, because it's not who we are. Uh...And Wally is just one of a handful of guys that we continue to not only hire, but bring in, and then we hire them a, a English tutor. We're putting them through the process of becoming a, a US citizen, so we hire the attorneys that is required for that to walk them through the process. They've got to test and evaluate. Uh, it's something that we're, we're really proud of, and not only are we really proud of, it's a really rich and incredible story about how these guys have come to the United States and been successful within a veteran owned and operated company that we were fighting together 10 years ago, and now we're roasting coffee in the United States together now, which is fucking nuts, dude. It's so... Like, that kind of stuff makes me so happy, and it fires me up that, you know, Brown Water can do that?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
Like, it's fucking incredible, man.
- JRJoe Rogan
It i- it is incredible, and I think stories like that, the only way to tell a story like that is to just tell it. I don't think someone writing it is ever going to capture all of the fascinating aspects of it, all of the inspirational aspects of it, the human aspects of it. You know, it, it's, this is what I know about you guys, so when-
- EHEvan Hafer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... I, when I see th- first of all, we're friends-
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... but also, like, when I see someone misrepresenting a company that I think is one of the most noble companies that I- I- I've ever come across, that the amount of time that you guys spent, um, trying to, to help first responders, military, police, I know what you guys do. So when I see you misrepresented by conservatives, and I'm not even conservative-
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
So I see that shit, and I'm like, "Well, you fucking idiots."
- EHEvan Hafer
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, what are you doing? You're doing the same thing that you accuse the people on the left of doing, and it's all, it's all nuts.
- EHEvan Hafer
It's, it's wild, man. I, it is, and, uh, uh, you know, as, as I kind of evolve in the last seven years, you know, I've, I've looked at the, especially the social media landscape and how hostile-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
... it's become. It's a really toxic environment. Uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's wild. (laughs)
- EHEvan Hafer
It, it's, it's, like, so incredible on one end-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
... and then it's like, it's like the Wild West for trolls on the other end, right? They're, like, getting their gloves on and rolling out their keyboards, and they're getting ready to, to, to hit it hard. Uh, and I think that most of this doesn't really impact me unless it's a customer that's emailing me, uh, which, to be fair, we, we really haven't had a lot of the customers even directly email us, uh, directly associated with this. Most of our customers are based on a direct interaction with our media that we put out on a regular basis, and they kind of know the company. Um, it is strange for a certain percentage of the conservatives to jump on a bandwagon like that and ultimately label, you know, me or the company as, uh, anti-American, which is-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's hilarious.
- EHEvan Hafer
... nuts. It's hilarious.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's hilarious for-
- EHEvan Hafer
If it wasn't so ridiculous. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
Like, if it wasn't... And it, you, the only thing you can do is kind of laugh at it and go, "Dudes, are you kidding me?" Like...
- 27:52 – 36:34
Social media as a broken information system: clipped videos and constant outrage
- JRJoe Rogan
But it shows you how easy someone can get smeared. Even s- a company that's as impeccable, uh, has such an impeccable reputation as yours can get smeared online in this weird climate. And part of me is like, well, what... There's... And I would like to think there's some grand conspiracy involved, right?
- EHEvan Hafer
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I think it's more that the way people communicate on social media is so ineffective and shitty. It's such a bad way to disseminate ideas.
- EHEvan Hafer
It is.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's not a bad way to get headlines out there, like, you know, "Bombs dropped on Syria."
- EHEvan Hafer
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. That's, like, show some footage. Okay, here it is. But, like, even, like, video clips. Uh, have you bi- been paying attention to... There was a, uh, cop that was frisking a guy, uh, pulled, uh, an empty baggie out of his pocket, and threw it in the backseat of a, of a car.
- EHEvan Hafer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just pulled the baggie out and chucked it in the car while he's frisking this guy, and it's like, "You just planted evidence in the car." And if you... And then the e- the cop explains it, "No, I didn't. First of all, the bag is empty. Second of all, he had it in his pocket," and you see his camera-
- EHEvan Hafer
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
... the cop's camera pull this bag outta this guy's pocket and drop in the backseat of the car. They took the clip of the cop throwing the baggie in the car and the other guy saying, "You just planted evidence." And then all throughout the internet, like, "Look at this evidence-"
- EHEvan Hafer
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
"... of this cop planting this fucking baggie in this guy's car. Oh my god, these cops are pieces of shit. They, they were, they were trying to set this guy up." And everybody started attacking the police. Everybody started attacking the, "This is why people don't trust the police." And I saw it just shared thousands of times.
- EHEvan Hafer
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then the full video came out, and in the full video, you actually see the police officer explain it. You see exactly what happened. And you're like, "Fuck, this is social media in a nutshell."
- EHEvan Hafer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
"This is the, the, the madness of how people exchange information online." It's a bad way to communicate. It's a bad way to go back and forth. It's not designed for human beings.
- EHEvan Hafer
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's like human beings trying to interface with something that's devoid of emotion, and it's devoid of context. It's devoid of, uh, social cues and the, the normal interactions between two human beings.
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah, and I think... I, I was thinking about this the other day, that there's a lot of people that are... Like, fear is a driving factor right now, right? You have a lot of fear that's floating around the United States internationally because of, I think, the way the media portrays a lot of different events. You know, every year there's been some type of-... catastrophic thing that the media's been able to pick up and really escalate. Uh, but then you have these devices, right? Where people are seeking emotion. They want a connection with people. And they can't get it from this.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
But when your default emotion is anger, because it's a really easy emotion to default to, you can't get a connection of love or, uh, you know, a, a meaningful emotion out of it. But it's really easy to make a connection with somebody online and default to anger, kind of get explosive and connected. Uh, I think there's a lot of people that are really just disconnected, and they're searching for some type of human interaction, and they're never gonna get it from an electronic device.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
And so I don't blame that. I think that right now, we're in this really strange predicament as a country, where people are feeling isolated and alone, and they're connected to their electronic devices more than they ever have been. But it's, it's a toxic environment if you're trying to connect with people in a, uh, when I say a negative way, and then band together and then enhance that emotion once again. Uh, I know that's probably an oversimplification, but you're not gonna be able to c- c- connect with a technology device. It's just never gonna happen.
- JRJoe Rogan
No. In this past year and a half, unfortunately because of the pandemic, there's much more distance between people-
- EHEvan Hafer
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... in terms of like, people aren't getting together as, as ... Well, at least they weren't for a long time. They're kind of doing it now. But they, they were not getting together and talking. People were sharing things through phones, and most of the communication was through text. They're not even calling each other, right?
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And then Zoom, like, people are having Zoom meetings and shit. So it's like, the disconnect ... I was, like, thinking about it, like if there was a ... If, if you had an artificial intelligence that was trying to get human beings to abandon everything that makes you human, like what better way than a virus that makes you scared of other people?
- EHEvan Hafer
Right.
- 36:34 – 58:11
Pandemic politics and mistrust: incompetent leaders and performative rules
- EHEvan Hafer
I think that's the great thing about, uh, uh, not the great thing about the pandemic, don't get me wrong. I'm, I'm saying the one silver lining that we should all be taking from this, is we get to see how fucking stupid politicians are.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Yes.
- EHEvan Hafer
This is like, this has pulled the curtain back and-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- EHEvan Hafer
... we get to see just how ridiculous they are. And that's where I start to look and think about individual liberty. And I start to think, why would you ever want to forfeit your freedom to one of these idiots-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- EHEvan Hafer
... that has control over what you or your family or your business does? Because if we've learned anything in the last year and a half, is that these people can't be trusted with, uh, a squeezy bottle.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
Like, we-
- JRJoe Rogan
With anything.
- EHEvan Hafer
... we can't trust them with the keys to the car.
- JRJoe Rogan
No.
- EHEvan Hafer
I wouldn't give them a '98 Cutlass with 180,000 miles to watch.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- EHEvan Hafer
Most of them are so fucking incompetent-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
... that I wouldn't trust them to wash a dish.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
And it amazes me when I look around, I'm like, "Why are you guys so interested?"
- JRJoe Rogan
You need to watch this.
- EHEvan Hafer
Oh.
- JRJoe Rogan
Pull it back from the beginning. Do it from the beginning. Give me some volume.
- EHEvan Hafer
(laughs)
- NANarrator
(upbeat music) We need a recovery that brings back the life and the heart and the energy of this city, and that everyone gets to be a part of. And if we're going to do that, we're going to really bring back the heart and soul of New York City. We need our arts and culture back, and we need people to see it and feel it, to participate in it.
- EHEvan Hafer
(laughs) Yeah. Hell yeah.
- NANarrator
To know that that essence of New York City-
- EHEvan Hafer
Look at how bad this dancing is. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
And they're wearing masks outside.
- NANarrator
... but will come back strong in 2021.
- 58:11 – 1:07:39
Freedom, protest, and the line between dissent and violence
- EHEvan Hafer
(smacks lips) Yeah, I think leadership comes with, uh, with a profound amount of responsibility, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- EHEvan Hafer
And, uh, I, I also think that you can't take responsibility for everyone's actions, right? So it's one of those things where there has to be a clear delineation between what's reasonable and what's a realistic expectation, which is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Mm-hmm.
- EHEvan Hafer
... no reasonable, law-abiding citizen thinks it's okay to penetrate a federal building, for instance.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
Uh, and that's happened both on the left and the right. Uh, we saw-
- JRJoe Rogan
Where does it happen on the left?
- EHEvan Hafer
Well, I think in Portland is when he tried-
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, okay.
- EHEvan Hafer
... where they're trying to-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
... burn the building down and do this-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's barely America.
- EHEvan Hafer
Barely, yeah. It's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Port- Portland is like some crazy socialist fucking island that-
- EHEvan Hafer
It's like the Soviet Republic of Oregon, whatever it might be.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) They're trying, they're trying to fuck that city up so bad. Ugh.
- EHEvan Hafer
Well, but that's the thing, I think, when you also see this, because people saw this lawlessness happening-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- EHEvan Hafer
... throughout the entire year. And I also think that the media directly contributes to gaslighting and then pulling people up in this, in this context of spinning them up on both sides. So now they're really pissed off.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right. Or diminishing the, the seriousness of these acts. Like-
- EHEvan Hafer
They are.
- JRJoe Rogan
... there, there was a photo on CNN where they were talking about mostly peaceful protests-
- EHEvan Hafer
Mostly peaceful.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and behind them is a burning building.
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah. Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
There's nothing peaceful about fire.
- EHEvan Hafer
There's nothing peaceful. I think-
- JRJoe Rogan
Nothing, unless it's a campfire.
- 1:07:39 – 1:18:29
Evan’s combat-life perspective: why wannabe revolutionaries don’t understand violence
- EHEvan Hafer
(sighs) Well, I, uh, man, I, you know, how do I, how do I step into this one? This one's pretty fu- this one'll be funny. But, uh, I was thinking about this the other, like over the last couple months with these guys, the, especially the Antifa characters, right? Where they're like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Hilarious.
- EHEvan Hafer
... "Okay, we're, we're really tough," and you're like, "Dude-" It- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... if you want to know what tough is, like, you, you guys are headed on a one-way road to, uh, being classified as a, as a terrorist organization. Once you do that, you're gonna meet tough. You're gonna meet it about 2:00 in the morning and a flashlight while you're in your parents' basement with a muzzle at the end of it. And that's not... You're, you're gonna pee your pants. You're gonna, you know, meet a person that is actually really tough. They've been trained for decades to do things that are very hazardous. And I, I just kinda laugh at the narrative because, uh, I think about my buddies and I over the last, like, couple decades. And, and, uh, and I think about how we were just kind of like bumbling idiots at times. But we're... But I knew some bad motherfuckers. Like, straight up some of the hardest dudes you'll ever meet, like, and you've had a couple of them on the show, like, Dakota Meyer- Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
... and Marcus Luttrell, and these guys, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Jocko.
- EHEvan Hafer
Jocko, like, like, bad mofos. And I was, I was talking to somebody, it was, like, my previous profession. Uh, I was like, if anybody were to step into my life, just get a snapshot, like if we were to switch brains for, or bodies for like five minutes, just a normal day at the office for me, they would go into fucking cardiac arrest.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Yes.
- EHEvan Hafer
They, they, they'd be like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
... "Oh, oh, they..."
- JRJoe Rogan
Exactly.
- EHEvan Hafer
Because I, I would, I would... Like, a normal day at the office is like me going through Mosul, Iraq which is basically like Mad Max, wearing a burqa, in the backseat of a l- you know, a thin-skinned vehicle with a belt-fed machine gun trying to hide from ISIS so I don't get, you know, my head cut off, with a couple other guys as we're trying to sneak around and look for ISIS, right? We're just playing cat and mouse. And I'm like, dude, at any point in time, my job was, like, looking like a- an Arabic woman in the back of a, you know, an old Corolla with a belt-fed machine gun, with a bunch of people that wanted to kill me every second of every day. And then you got a bunch of dudes that are like, "Oh my God, we're so tough." I'm like, "Man, you couldn't handle five seconds in my life on a normal day where my, where my, you know, beats per minute weren't f- weren't going ab- above 56."
- JRJoe Rogan
And what's amazing is it's because of people like you that people like that get to express themselves in these ridiculous ways.
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
They don't understand that you have given them the freedom because of your dedication and sacrifice. You've given them the freedom to exist in this land and be ridiculous.
- EHEvan Hafer
And I love it.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- EHEvan Hafer
I do, man. I love it.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's part of the gig.
- EHEvan Hafer
It's part of the gig. It's like, like freedom's like a big buffet, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- EHEvan Hafer
You don't have to take everything.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- EHEvan Hafer
But it's all there.
- JRJoe Rogan
You don't have to eat the tomatoes.
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah. It's like, "Ah."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- EHEvan Hafer
"I'm gonna pass on that. That doesn't look too cool."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- 1:18:29 – 1:19:30
Political homelessness and the two-party trap (Tulsi, debates, and the center)
- EHEvan Hafer
Mm-hmm. So I got a question for you, then. Because of this, do you think that your political or individual ideology, do you think that you fit into a political party in America today?
- JRJoe Rogan
Definitely not.
- EHEvan Hafer
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
No, I'm, I am such a fucking homeless person when it comes-
- EHEvan Hafer
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to politics. I am liberal in every social way. First of all, when I was a kid, my family, my parents were hippies. Um, we were on welfare. We, y- had food stamps. Like, that was what kept my family alive when I was a small boy. I remember it very clearly. I remember going to the supermarket and my parents buying food with food stamps. I remember being embarrassed that we drank powdered milk. I remember being on welfare.... you know, but they got out of that. They worked their way out of that situation. They used government assistance in the best possible way and went on to, to live a fulfilled and happy and successful life. I saw it happen.
Episode duration: 3:07:22
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