CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 2:03
Childhood tobacco disasters & early reading influences
Joe and Steven trade stories about getting sick from chewing/eating tobacco as kids, riffing on how childhood curiosity can backfire. The conversation pivots into books they loved growing up and how stories shape behavior.
- •Steven’s fifth-grade ‘ag map’ project leads to eating tobacco and hallucinating
- •Joe tries chewing tobacco after reading Tom Sawyer/Huckleberry Finn and gets violently ill
- •Nostalgic look at how books influence childhood experimentation
- •Humor about how aversions get ‘hardwired’ early
- 2:03 – 6:08
Mark Twain’s name: riverboat depth calls, tabs, and a stolen pen name
They unpack the origin of Mark Twain’s pseudonym, including the classic riverboat ‘mark twain’ depth call and an alternate ‘two drinks’ bar-tab explanation. Jamie pulls up references that add a twist: Twain may have taken the name from another writer.
- •Riverboat lore: ‘mark twain’ as 12 feet (two fathoms) for safe passage
- •Alternate theory: ‘mark twain’ as ‘two marks’ on a bar tab
- •Jamie cites research suggesting Twain adopted/borrowed the signature from Captain Isaiah Sellers
- •Discussion of archaic language (‘twain’ meaning two)
- 6:08 – 9:19
Joe’s close-up mountain lion encounter and why predator management matters
Joe describes a tense, awe-filled sighting of a huge mountain lion at close range, sparking a wider discussion about public perception of predators. They compare state-by-state management approaches and how policy shifts can affect human-wildlife conflict.
- •Joe’s 30-second roadside encounter: size, behavior, and fear factor
- •Tag rules: over-the-counter vs hounds and draw systems
- •Washington/Oregon first modern-era fatalities and changing policies
- •Debate over managing lions as renewable wildlife vs leaving populations unchecked
- 9:19 – 13:37
Tracking lions on foot + predator callers: tactics and ethics
Steven explains an ‘ingenious’ strategy: cut tracks after fresh snow, track on foot, then use a predator caller to pull a lion into view. They also discuss extreme encounter videos and how agencies investigate self-defense kills.
- •Road-cutting tracks after snow, then tracking without hounds
- •Predator callers: mouth calls vs electronic libraries (rabbit, fawn distress, etc.)
- •Example where the method produces a quick, close lion encounter
- •Reaction to viral ‘back away’ mountain lion shooting video and likely reporting process
- 13:37 – 25:27
Turkey hunting surprises: lions, coyotes, bears—and why it’s so intense
Stories stack up about predators responding to turkey calls, including lions and coyotes rushing in during or right after a shot. Steven recounts a terrifying black bear encounter at inches away, emphasizing how unpredictable the woods can be.
- •Mountain lions (including a mother with kits) responding to turkey calls
- •Coyotes boldly grabbing shot turkeys almost immediately
- •Steven’s bear exhale encounter at near-contact distance
- •Hunting as real-world context for understanding predator risk
- 25:27 – 34:07
Blaze orange, hunting accidents, and the psychology of mistaken-identity shootings
They shift to hunter safety: blaze orange rules vary widely and accidental shootings still happen, especially in turkey season. Steven tells multiple firsthand stories of people being shot—sometimes twice—highlighting how ‘movement shooting’ and poor judgment lead to tragedy.
- •State-by-state inconsistencies in blaze orange requirements
- •Color-blindness affecting blood trailing and visibility challenges
- •Incidents: archery hunter shot by muzzleloader; turkey hunters shot multiple times
- •Ethics and emotions: condemnation plus sympathy for panicked/inept shooters
- 34:07 – 37:35
COVID antibodies in wild deer and spillover pathways
The conversation returns to wildlife science: many deer test positive for COVID antibodies, with unclear transmission routes. Steven and Joe explore plausible pathways—captive cervids, suburban proximity, and human-animal interfaces—without firm conclusions.
- •High antibody prevalence in sampled deer populations (e.g., Michigan)
- •Banked pre-COVID samples suggest the antibodies weren’t present earlier
- •Speculation: captive cervid facilities as a bridge between humans and wild deer
- •Comparisons to mink farms and zoo animals as ‘close contact’ transmission examples
- 37:35 – 42:03
Quarantining with kids and dogs + school rules that don’t match reality
Joe and Steven share personal COVID quarantine stories—especially how kids emotionally adapt and how pets complicate isolation. They also critique simplistic public-health heuristics (like ‘15 minutes’) when variants and real-world behavior differ.
- •Steven quarantines in a guest house; kids initially distressed then adapt quickly
- •Both discuss uncertainty about pets as vectors and whether dogs should ‘quarantine’
- •Zoo cats treated for presumptive COVID and what ‘presumptive’ means
- •School lunch-time limits based on ‘15 minutes’ guidance and why it feels arbitrary
- 42:03 – 53:42
Social media’s incentive structures: anxiety, algorithms, and kid safety online
They broaden into tech culture: Facebook outages, algorithmic outrage, and how platforms shape division. The discussion turns dark with Elsagate and the risks of children stumbling into disturbing or predatory content, plus the impossible burden on parents.
- •Facebook/Instagram outage as a thought experiment about societal anxiety
- •Algorithms amplify division by rewarding engagement and conflict
- •Elsagate and coded comment networks; disturbing ‘kid-friendly’ content pipelines
- •Parenting in the smartphone era: supervision limits, clever workarounds, and trauma risks
- 53:42 – 1:27:03
Raising ‘outdoor kids’ and calibrating risk: freedom vs protection
Steven introduces his book project on getting kids outside, and both debate how to balance independence with safety. They compare urban ‘free-range’ parenting to rural risk (bears, boats, mountains), arguing that healthy adversity matters but must be chosen thoughtfully.
- •Outdoor experiences as a ‘common language’ between parent and child
- •Free-range kids vs helicopter parenting; risk/reward framing
- •Different parents tolerate different dangers (subway vs grizzlies vs big water)
- •Adversity as developmental fuel—but not a guaranteed recipe for resilience
- 1:27:03 – 1:56:02
MeatEater’s growth: brands, teams, leadership vs management, and ‘death marches’
Steven explains how MeatEater expanded into a multi-brand media and gear ecosystem, and how he stays involved without feeling spread too thin. They talk candidly about leadership style, emotional authenticity, and the grueling reality of filming hunts as real work.
- •MeatEater umbrella: First Lite, Phelps Game Calls, FHF Gear, distributed contributors
- •Steven’s role: heavily involved in Netflix seasons and books while relying on a strong team
- •Leadership vs management; high expectations, emotional transparency, and limits as a ‘manager’
- •Backcountry production reality: long days, no off-switch, and ‘death march’ dynamics
- 1:56:02 – 2:22:32
Platforms, demonetization, and censorship: hunting media meets the modern internet
They dig into distribution fragility: YouTube demonetization policies for hunting footage, ads on non-partner videos, and the need to diversify platforms. The conversation expands into broader speech controversies (lab leak, media narratives, social platform power) and how creators navigate shifting rules.
- •YouTube ad-friendly rules: limiting kill shots, suffering, and processing footage
- •YouTube placing ads on non-partner/demonetized content without paying creators
- •Strategic diversification: books, podcasts, Netflix, traditional TV, and direct channels
- •Free speech vs platform control: mischaracterization, deplatforming, and historical parallels
- 2:22:32 – 2:53:36
Origins and evolution of MeatEater: early TV failures, creative control, and ‘skunkers’
Steven reflects on earlier projects (Wild Within, early books) that didn’t ‘take off’ and how those lessons shaped MeatEater’s stripped-down authenticity. They discuss Netflix’s adoption of hunting content and why unsuccessful hunts can be the most meaningful episodes.
- •Wild Within cancellation as a career low that clarified what Steven wanted to make
- •Rejecting ‘animal wranglers’ and manufactured outcomes; valuing authenticity
- •Netflix ‘second window’ deal and surprisingly hands-off content discussions
- •‘Skunkers’ (unsuccessful hunts) as realistic storytelling and emotional depth
- 2:53:36 – 3:08:32
Wrap-up: future of podcasts, family legacy, and MeatEater calls-to-action
They close on media’s long-term trajectory and whether Joe expects to podcast forever, emphasizing authentic curiosity over chasing ratings. Steven shares a personal note about his son hoping to join MeatEater someday and plugs current releases and fundraising initiatives.
- •Joe on longevity: keep going as long as the conversations stay genuine
- •Steven on legacy and nudging his son toward service vs joining the family business
- •Promotions: Campfire Stories: Close Calls, American Buffalo audiobook, themeateater.com
- •Land Access Initiative fundraiser and auction items tied to the show
