Joe Rogan Experience #1721 - Michael Malice

Narrator 0:00 (drumming) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (instrumental music)

Joe Rogan 0:12 Michael Malice, has there ever been a person in history-

Michael Malice 0:15 (laughs) Here we go.

Joe Rogan 0:15 ... that has more support than this fellow, Brandon?

Michael Malice 0:18 (laughs) Let's go, Brandon!

Joe Rogan 0:19 It seems like that is the most popular person I've ever come across. Everyone is in support of this Brandon fella.

Michael Malice 0:28 There, there's this internet meme about, I think his name is Kyle, uh, who drinks Monster Red Bull and puts his fist through drywall. Is that the- is that Kyle- is that name Kyle? But Brandon, um-

Joe Rogan 0:38 I don't know about Kyle.

Michael Malice 0:39 Kyle's- Kyle is a white kid who drinks a lot of Monster-

Joe Rogan 0:43 (laughs)

Michael Malice 0:43 ... and puts his fist through- through drywall.

Joe Rogan 0:45 (laughs)

Michael Malice 0:46 Uh, Brandon is, uh, everywhere.

Joe Rogan 0:48 Well, I don't know this Kyle fella though. Is this a f- a popular meme?

Michael Malice 0:51 I thi-

Joe Rogan 0:51 Oh, here it is.

Michael Malice 0:52 Yeah, there it is. Kyle, I was right.

Joe Rogan 0:53 Okay, so Kyle just punches shit?

Michael Malice 0:55 When he drinks a lot of Monster.

Joe Rogan 0:57 It, uh, the- it's so crazy how, like, something will become popular. You know? Like that one guy, the- the large fella that's, uh, sitting on the edge of the bed with his giant cock hanging over the bed.

Michael Malice 1:09 Yes, yes. That-

Joe Rogan 1:09 That one picture of this fella and his big dick...

Michael Malice 1:13 This is the most boomer conversation. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:16 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:16 You know how on the internet, Jamie, these pictures-

Joe Rogan 1:19 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:19 ... get names and the kids share them.

Joe Rogan 1:22 How does-

Michael Malice 1:22 And who- who- how do these pictures come from?

Joe Rogan 1:24 How- where do they come from? How do these kids-

Michael Malice 1:25 And why- why is it Tom Cruise laughing? I don't understand.

Joe Rogan 1:28 How this- is this coordinated? How-

Michael Malice 1:31 (laughs) It's like a- it's a conspiracy.

Joe Rogan 1:32 (laughs) Why do they keep showing Michael Jordan crying?

Michael Malice 1:36 (laughs) Or Michael Jackson eating popcorn?

Joe Rogan 1:39 (laughs)

Michael Malice 1:40 Why isn't Michael Jackson?

Joe Rogan 1:41 It is amazing, like, what memes get used and what- what don't get used. Like, that one will just catch fire and just spread through the- the- the lines.

Michael Malice 1:51 I'm trying to think of what my favorite meme is. Uh, and there's one that's not a meme, it's just a funny picture, but what do I use all the time? Like, the one I use is, um, it's not a meme, it's a GIF, when f- like, people on Twitter ask me, like, a bunch of questions in a row in, like, one tweet. I just reply with The Riddler 'cause it's all these question marks.

Joe Rogan 2:08 Oh.

Michael Malice 2:08 But that's not that clever particularly. What is, like, some- what is the best meme? I'm blanking. I can't th- I- I can't think-

Joe Rogan 2:15 There's a lot of good ones. There's a lot of good ones. There's so many good ones. I mean, it's just- the- the beauty of it is it's really a new form of comedy. You know? Like, internet meme comedy is a new form of comedy, and it's a brilliant form of comedy that some people are masters at. Really like a Dave Chappelle, like a- they're masters- like a comic is a master, they're masters at this weird new form that's only existed for, like, 15 years now.

Michael Malice 2:47 And the greatest thing is that, uh, establishment figures don't know what to do with this.

Joe Rogan 2:52 Oh, this is one of my favorites. I'm gonna show you this new one.

Michael Malice 2:55 Let me see.

Joe Rogan 2:55 Hold on. Jamie, I'm gonna send this to you. This is one of my new favorite memes because it's-

Michael Malice 3:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:02 There's just so- there's so many of them, but this one is, like- this is my favorite of the time. This is ... Hold on. All right. I sent it to you, Jamie.

Michael Malice 3:13 Let's see this.

Joe Rogan 3:14 This is my favorite-

Michael Malice 3:15 Fun role.

Joe Rogan 3:15 ... of today, of this- this-

Michael Malice 3:17 Oh, this is the one with the- with the drinking water? The engine coolant? Was that the one?

Joe Rogan 3:20 No.

Michael Malice 3:20 Okay.

Joe Rogan 3:21 No, no, no. That's a good one too, but that- I actually know the guy.

Michael Malice 3:23 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, this is a wi-

Joe Rogan 3:24 This is my favorite.

Michael Malice 3:24 I've- this has been around for a while. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:25 Cover me harder, daddy. (laughs)

Michael Malice 3:27 Yeah, yeah. But that's the NPC meme which I explained on this show-

Joe Rogan 3:31 (laughs)

Michael Malice 3:31 ... a few times ago when I was on.

Joe Rogan 3:32 That- this is an NPC as well?

Michael Malice 3:34 Yeah. You- that's- they're- they're gray and they have that- that- that, uh-

Joe Rogan 3:37 Oh, that's what those- those things are. Okay.

Michael Malice 3:38 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:39 That's right. You did explain that. NPCs, yeah.

Michael Malice 3:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:42 Non-player character for- of the other boomers out there.

Michael Malice 3:45 (laughs) Yeah, for all the boomers listening to the show.

Joe Rogan 3:46 I like how it's double masked too. Look at that. (laughs)

Michael Malice 3:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:50 I saw someone today on Twitter that was ranting this, like, vitriolic, just nasty rant about unvaccinated people causing the death of Colin Powell.

Michael Malice 4:05 So, is that a good thing or a bad thing?

Joe Rogan 4:07 Well, here's the deal. The guy had blood cancer.

Michael Malice 4:11 Oh, shit. I didn't- leukemia?

Joe Rogan 4:12 Y- no. It's, uh, a different kind. I- an- what is it called?

Narrator 4:17 Mileom-a...

Joe Rogan 4:18 Yeah. It's- it's a very severe form of blood cancer that d- severely impacts the immune system apparently, and might have even rendered his vaccination ineffective 'cause he was vaccinated. So-

Michael Malice 4:31 He was double vaccinated, I believe. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:33 Yeah. Whatever that means, you know, fully vaccinated.

Michael Malice 4:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:36 It's not even fully anymore. Do you know that at six months after the- the vaccine, some hospitals are not counting you as vaccinated six months after fully vaccinated? This comes from some woman that was working at a hospital that was talking about cases of vaccinated versus unvaccinated people that were admitted- admitted to the ICU, and she was saying the people that are in the hospital, they're- in her particular hospital, she was saying when someone's been vaccinated six months ago, they list them as unvaccinated.

Michael Malice 5:05 Well, that's why they need those boosters in perpetuity, right? That's the-

Joe Rogan 5:07 Yeah, but this is crazy. Like, th- they are fucking vaccinated and they're listing them in the hospital as unvaccinated and jacking up the unvaccinated numbers.

Michael Malice 5:16 But I think it goes the other way that if it- if the efficacy is only six months, they're jacking up the numbers of people who are vaccinated to try to make it seem like only a tiny minority aren't when, oh, that 70% or whatever it is-

Joe Rogan 5:27 Right.

Michael Malice 5:27 ... some of them are no longer effectively vaccinated.

Joe Rogan 5:29 Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

Michael Malice 5:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:30 Yeah. They're- they're making it seem like the people that are in the hospital are unvaccinated when they're actually vaccinated, but they've passed this arbitrary expiration date that this one hospital has put on it. But it's an-

Michael Malice 5:41 Wait, is it arbitrary? I thought it has a- it- I thought it has, like, a half-life.

Joe Rogan 5:45 Well-... arbitrary in terms of the hospital making the designation, right? Me- making the distinction that this is an unvaccinated person. Like, there's nowhere else that makes that distinction. Like, the- the federal government, the- the airlines, like New York City when you go to restaurants, all these places that have vaccine mandates, the mandate in America... In Israel now, you're considered unvaccinated if you have two shots and you don't have three.

Michael Malice 6:09 Okay.

Joe Rogan 6:09 They consider you unvaccinated. Like-

Michael Malice 6:11 But Israel's rates are through the roof too.

Joe Rogan 6:12 Through the roof.

Michael Malice 6:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 6:13 But meanwhile, it's- it doesn't seem to be having an impact. The booster doesn't seem to be having an impact, except with Keith Olbermann. It seems to be making him fucking crazier.

Michael Malice 6:21 Did you see how I clowned him-

Joe Rogan 6:22 Yes, I did.

Michael Malice 6:22 ... so badly?

Joe Rogan 6:23 It was beautiful.

Michael Malice 6:23 It was so fun.

Joe Rogan 6:24 It was beautiful.

Michael Malice 6:25 It was so fun. But he-

Joe Rogan 6:26 He doesn't know who he's fucking with.

Michael Malice 6:27 (laughs) He-

Joe Rogan 6:28 He doesn't know.

Michael Malice 6:28 He knows now, motherfucker.

Joe Rogan 6:31 (laughs)

Michael Malice 6:31 This angry old lesbian-

Joe Rogan 6:33 (laughs)

Michael Malice 6:33 ... it's ... Here's the thing. If- if- if Jamie, if you go to my likes on my Twitter, you'll see this-

Joe Rogan 6:37 What this means-

Michael Malice 6:37 ... side by side.

Joe Rogan 6:37 ... what you're saying is rude to angry old lesbians-

Michael Malice 6:39 Okay, that's-

Joe Rogan 6:40 ... 'cause there's a lot of angry old lesbians that are really cool.

Michael Malice 6:42 Fine. Let's just say he's doing a very bad Bea Arthur impression.

Joe Rogan 6:44 (laughs)

Michael Malice 6:44 Here's the thing, the guy has a resume that can't be beat. Sportscaster-

Joe Rogan 6:48 Yes.

Michael Malice 6:48 ... political ... Uh, he's got this enormous career.

Joe Rogan 6:50 I used to enjoy him.

Michael Malice 6:51 And then you, single-handedly you and Alex, make him into an internet laughingstock, and he doesn't know what to do about it, and he starts yelling about rogan mutton heads-

Joe Rogan 7:01 (laughs)

Michael Malice 7:01 ... like an 80 ... "You rogan mutton head."

Joe Rogan 7:03 But he called me Mr. Afraid.

Michael Malice 7:05 It- it- but he-

Joe Rogan 7:06 Mr. Afraid. Imagine, like you're sitting in front of your keyboard, like, "What do I want to call this asshole?"

Michael Malice 7:10 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 7:11 Let's see what I got here.

Michael Malice 7:13 But he's-

Joe Rogan 7:13 I'm a writer.

Michael Malice 7:14 But he's also yelling.

Joe Rogan 7:15 I'm a journalist.

Michael Malice 7:16 He's yelling down to the masses from atop a penthouse-

Joe Rogan 7:19 Yeah.

Michael Malice 7:19 ... on Central Park, like the real estate value that's through the roof.

Joe Rogan 7:22 Well, not only that-

Michael Malice 7:23 And he's also tagging you 'cause he wants you to engage with him-

Joe Rogan 7:25 Of course.

Michael Malice 7:25 ... desperately. He's thirsty-

Joe Rogan 7:26 And I have.

Michael Malice 7:27 ... as f- you ha- you ha- you have?

Joe Rogan 7:28 Well, I ... Here? We just did.

Michael Malice 7:29 Oh, yeah, but no- no, he wants to be on the show.

Joe Rogan 7:31 Oh. No, he doesn't.

Michael Malice 7:32 But he's ratings- he's ratings poison.

Joe Rogan 7:34 He doesn't want to be on the show. He's ... I don't know why he's so angry. I mean-

Michael Malice 7:38 He's angry because-

Joe Rogan 7:39 ... it's- it's just a weird thing. But here's-

Michael Malice 7:40 But he ... Hold on, hold on, can I say one thing?

Joe Rogan 7:41 Yeah, please.

Michael Malice 7:41 You know why he's angry? Because y- y- you talk a lot about guy stuff. There's something very, very sad when you're closer to your nursing home than to your prime, and everyone lets you know it. If you look at his Twitter feed, no one has his back, everyone just clowns him, and he doesn't know how to handle it.

Joe Rogan 7:56 Oh, yeah. That's the thing. Yeah, he doesn't have a lot of support. But that's ... You know, I don't think he has a l-

Michael Malice 8:02 And he could have some-

Joe Rogan 8:02 I think he probably doesn't have a lot of friends.

Michael Malice 8:04 Yeah, but he could go out with dignity. He doesn't have to go out like a screaming loon.

Joe Rogan 8:07 Nobody wants to go out, Michael Malice. Nobody wants to go out. They don't want to go out with dignity, they don't wanna go out with- with hate, they don't want to go out.

Michael Malice 8:14 Sure, of course, yeah. You've worked with a lot of athletes-

Joe Rogan 8:16 Rage against the dying of the light.

Michael Malice 8:18 Right, right. I mean, but it's like these UFC guys who are past their prime-

Joe Rogan 8:21 Yeah.

Michael Malice 8:21 ... and they keep going in there and they become cans, right?

Joe Rogan 8:23 Yeah.

Michael Malice 8:23 It's like someone needs to sit them down and be like, "Your time is done. No disrespect to you. You're an amazing athlete-"

Joe Rogan 8:28 Right.

Michael Malice 8:28 "... but it's over."

Joe Rogan 8:29 Yeah. Maybe.

Michael Malice 8:30 Look at ... Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 8:31 (laughs) This thing that you did, the choice is clear. But the problem is, like, he's not capable of being silly, right? Like, everything's angering, and you're being silly.

Michael Malice 8:43 Right.

Joe Rogan 8:43 When anger is confronted by silliness that doesn't get angry at the anger, it makes the anger seem so preposterous.

Michael Malice 8:51 Well, it's kind of like when you have that, like, hysterical girlfriend, and you're just sitting there smiling and nodding-

Joe Rogan 8:55 Right.

Michael Malice 8:55 ... and she just gets more and more hysterical, and at a certain point, it just becomes funny. It's just like-

Joe Rogan 8:58 Yes.

Michael Malice 8:58 ... "Look, you are doing this to your s-" And that is trolling at its purest.

Joe Rogan 9:02 Y- yes, well, that's what you do-

Michael Malice 9:03 It is what it is.

Joe Rogan 9:04 ... and that's why he's fucked up. He made a mistake.

Michael Malice 9:06 Yeah, it's-

Joe Rogan 9:07 But I feel bad for him, because, like, also he didn't understand what he's saying when he's saying, "You're afraid, you're afraid." You're literally talking to 72% of the African American community.

Michael Malice 9:20 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:21 Like, you really think they're all afraid? Like, y- this is your- your- o- o- your only perception on this is that they're all scared and afraid? Like, this is his hot take?

Michael Malice 9:30 But it's also the- his advice ... He goes, "I wasn't trying to persuade them to get vaccinated." He goes, "I was trying to persuade vaccinated people to yell at the n- unvaccinated and call them dumb." It's like if Keith Olbermann calls me dumb or a mutton head, this is really not going to be m- skin off my back or gonna change my behavior.

Joe Rogan 9:46 That's not really what it was. What it was was a- a ... It was a flex to show that he's not scared.

Michael Malice 9:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 9:52 He's macho, that's why he's yelling at people. He's sensible, that's why he's putting on his glasses. He's letting them know. Like, "I sho- ... Uh, like, here's a video of me getting my shot."

Michael Malice 10:01 Yeah, he's a badass.

Joe Rogan 10:02 I'm a badass. I'm not afraid of myocarditis.

Michael Malice 10:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 10:05 I'm not afraid of thrombosis. I'm not afraid of strokes, heart attacks. I'm not afraid of ... What is it, pericarditis? What's the other shit?

Michael Malice 10:12 He's afraid of aging, and he's afraid of fading into obscurity. And it's happening to him, and it's- it's very unfortunate that he's doing it in this way.

Joe Rogan 10:20 Yeah, well, you know what, man? He had something at one point in time. Like his- his fiery dialogue, like the way he would write those ... He would write these speeches, you know? These- these monologues, they were very good at one point in time. Like, whatever that was, it's like a man at some point in his life has, like, a certain balance of, like, uh, passion, but hope for the future. And, you know, you have your sex hormones, you have-

Michael Malice 10:53 Sure.

Joe Rogan 10:53 ... you have your- your life ahead of you. You have, like, hope and you wanna change things. And at some point in time, things become imbalanced.

Michael Malice 11:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 11:01 And then you- you no longer have hope, and then your hormones aren't functioning correctly anymore, and then-

Michael Malice 11:07 And now the kids are laughing at you.

Joe Rogan 11:08 Yes.

Michael Malice 11:08 And you don't know why they're laughing at you 'cause you're just doing it, whatever what all your whole peer group is doing-

Joe Rogan 11:13 Yeah.

Michael Malice 11:13 ... but somehow you're the one being singled out and being clowned constantly. He's got a million followers on Twitter, which is no joke, but these are all former, like, ESPN or MSNBC people. I just passed him in terms of YouTube subscribers, which I shouldn't be able to do, but that just shows that these are, like, inactive accounts. And it's kind of s- ... The thing is wh- when people are that performative about their politics-

Joe Rogan 11:34 Yeah.

Michael Malice 11:34 ... they expect people to stand up and applaud for them, right?

Joe Rogan 11:36 Right, that's what the reason to do it is.

Michael Malice 11:38 But he's not-

Joe Rogan 11:38 Yeah.

Michael Malice 11:38 And he's not getting that, and it must be confusing for him in his dotage.

Joe Rogan 11:43 Well, it's a time where, you know, when the- these narratives, right? When you- you could sit down and have these monologues, it used to be a rare thing.... you know, where someone had the freedom to, like, write a monologue like that. So, it was impressive.

Michael Malice 11:56 Sure.

Joe Rogan 11:57 But now, everyone with a YouTube channel can-

Michael Malice 12:00 Right.

Joe Rogan 12:00 ... sit in front of a camera. And you have these brilliant people that aren't on a platform like MSNBC or Fox or CBS or whatever. They're- they're just in their house-

Michael Malice 12:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:13 ... with a screen behind them. Like Lex, is a perfect example. Right?

Michael Malice 12:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 12:17 (laughs)

Michael Malice 12:17 I do.

Joe Rogan 12:19 Why are you laughing?

Michael Malice 12:19 Well, 'cause I- I-

Joe Rogan 12:20 'Cause we were talking about him before.

Michael Malice 12:21 But also 'cause Lex is-

Joe Rogan 12:22 Yeah.

Michael Malice 12:22 ... always makes me smile. He's such a sweet kid, yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:24 I love him to death.

Michael Malice 12:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:25 But-

Michael Malice 12:25 I'm just trying to imagine Lex as Keith Olbermann standing on the balcony, "You need to get vaccinated. Joe Rogan's a mountain head."

Joe Rogan 12:31 He's the opposite.

Michael Malice 12:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:32 Right? His v- his monologues are all about love and learning and growth-

Michael Malice 12:39 And humility.

Joe Rogan 12:39 ... and humility.

Michael Malice 12:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:41 Yeah, yeah. And he's becoming huge because of it. Because of that, Lex Fridman is one of the most respected and interesting commentators on the internet. I mean, his- (clears throat) his internet, uh, d- discussions with people are fucking amazing. His- his David Fravor, the one with that, uh, that fighter pilot that encountered that strange craft-

Michael Malice 13:00 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 13:00 ... off the coast of San Diego is one of the best interviews I've ever seen in my life. I mean, he's so good at communicating with people, again, with humility, but the way he discusses things, even when they're (clears throat) controversial, when, you know, he feels like something needs to be said, the way he says things is never like, "I am better than you." He's a fucking scientist from MIT.

Michael Malice 13:23 He's also like-

Joe Rogan 13:24 He's a brilliant guy.

Michael Malice 13:24 ... a black belt martial artist-

Joe Rogan 13:25 Yeah, black- black belt Brazilian jiu-jitsu.

Michael Malice 13:26 ... and like a powerlifter.

Joe Rogan 13:27 Yeah.

Michael Malice 13:27 He's like an- He's the hardest working person I've ever met. He pushes himself so hard and it's- and he's- he- he- I don't- he's so driven but not in an ambitious way but kind of like seizing life by the balls kinda way.

Joe Rogan 13:38 Yes, and testing himself.

Michael Malice 13:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:40 He's constantly testing himself and- and that humility because of constantly finding his own limitations, right? He finds his own limitations on a daily basis. He's- he portrays this- this- w- this character that you respect and you appreciate. And-

Michael Malice 13:57 But he's really like that.

Joe Rogan 13:58 He's really like that.

Michael Malice 13:58 I do now. Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:59 Oh, I hang out with him all the time.

Michael Malice 14:00 Yeah. He- he-

Joe Rogan 14:00 He's really like that.

Michael Malice 14:01 ... he moved in- I moved in two doors down from him.

Joe Rogan 14:03 (laughs) I love it.

Michael Malice 14:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:04 You two guys are the same. (laughs)

Michael Malice 14:05 I know. It's fucking hilarious.

Joe Rogan 14:07 That's the odd couple.

Michael Malice 14:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:08 You g- (laughs) You guys should have a sitcom.

Michael Malice 14:11 It's- it- I mean, he- it- it- yeah. It's j- I- I can look out my front door and see his house. So, it's- it's a- it's- it's-

Joe Rogan 14:16 That's hilarious. That's amazing. I- I love that you're here. I- I mean, it's so cool. There's so many cool people moving to the city.

Michael Malice 14:22 Blair White moved in the same day as me. Rucka Rucka Ali moved here as well. He's a- a music video guy. Uh, I don't miss New York at all.

Joe Rogan 14:31 Yeah.

Michael Malice 14:31 Like at all. And-

Joe Rogan 14:32 I don't miss California at all either. LA can eat ass.

Michael Malice 14:35 L- LA has gotten worse than New York.

Joe Rogan 14:36 Yeah. Yeah, it has.

Michael Malice 14:37 Which is shocking to- and it's gonna get- uh, there's no mechanism to turn it around.

Joe Rogan 14:41 Not only is there no mechanism, it's- there's like a suicide pact to keep the same path-

Michael Malice 14:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 14:46 ... and pretend that it's working or pretend it's the only way to do it.

Michael Malice 14:50 I remember, uh, some time maybe 15 years ago, I was at Washington Square Park looking north up Fifth Avenue and this is when they were talking about Al-Qaeda having a dirty bomb maybe bring a suitcase and detonating it and like blowing up New York. And I thought to myself, "If they take out this city, take me with it." Like I can't- this is me.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Right.

Michael Malice 15:08 I lived there since I was two. I still don't know how to drive. And for watching what they did to New York w- has been, I've talked about this a lot, has been so heartbreaking, uh, and- and traumatic. And moving was so hard, but now that I left, I don't miss it at all.

Joe Rogan 15:26 Listen, I love New York, but I love it to visit.

Michael Malice 15:29 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:29 You know, I was just there. I did Madison Square Garden a couple weeks ago. It was magic. I was like, "Oh my god, I'm doing the Garden."

Michael Malice 15:34 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:34 "This is amazing."

Michael Malice 15:34 Of course.

Joe Rogan 15:35 And then I couldn't wait to get the fuck out of there.

Michael Malice 15:37 Yeah. It's- 'cause all the things that make New York special have been destroyed.

Joe Rogan 15:41 De Blasio ruined everything.

Michael Malice 15:42 De Blasio did more damage to New York than Mohammed Atta. It's not even close.

Joe Rogan 15:45 Way more.

Michael Malice 15:46 Way more. It's not even close.

Joe Rogan 15:46 Way more.

Michael Malice 15:47 And intentionally. And he's gonna do a lot of nasty things on his way out and it's not even a question. Um-

Joe Rogan 15:51 What do you think he's gonna be able to do?

Michael Malice 15:52 I don't know. But there's no way- like what- what about Cuomo? Cuomo pardoned that terrorist on his way out. So, one of the weathermen-

Joe Rogan 15:58 What terrorist?

Michael Malice 15:59 One of the weathermen.

Joe Rogan 15:59 Oh, did he really?

Michael Malice 16:00 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Of course.

Joe Rogan 16:01 I didn't know- wait a minute. I didn't know Cuomo ... Governors can pardon people too?

Michael Malice 16:04 Of course, yeah.

Joe Rogan 16:05 Oh, I didn't know that.

Michael Malice 16:06 P- pardon or commute, I'm not- I'm not exactly sure which one goes.

Joe Rogan 16:08 But either way ...

Michael Malice 16:09 Yeah, he commuted, uh, one of the weathermen. Um, so he's-

Joe Rogan 16:12 (sighs)

Michael Malice 16:12 ... letting terrorists out of jail, but imprisoning, uh, peaceful people in their own homes, uh, and not letting them go out to restaurants. It's almost like- it sounds like- the idea for me as a Russian that I gotta show a piece of paper to get food from someone-

Joe Rogan 16:25 Right.

Michael Malice 16:25 ... is so against my DNA that I was like, "I'm not doing this."

Joe Rogan 16:28 Well, the good thing is you could eat outside which is gonna be really fun in January (laughs)

Michael Malice 16:31 Yeah. Yeah. But like all these great-

Joe Rogan 16:34 (clears throat)

Michael Malice 16:34 ... like if you walk around Park Slope which was the neighborhood next to mine, like stores there, family stores been there since the '70s, you know, for rent.

Joe Rogan 16:40 Yeah.

Michael Malice 16:41 Just store after store shut down.

Joe Rogan 16:42 Yeah.

Michael Malice 16:43 And they want us all to be part of these giant corporations and ha- do our shopping through Amazon or Target.

Joe Rogan 16:48 Well if- even if they don't want that-

Michael Malice 16:50 Right, so you-

Joe Rogan 16:50 Even if that's not-

Michael Malice 16:51 Right.

Joe Rogan 16:51 Yeah, that's just what's gonna happen because of these policies. If these policies really were put in play to b- give off the impression that they're protecting people, ultimately what they're doing is empowering places like Target and Walmart. And what they're doing is killing mom and pop shops-

Michael Malice 17:07 Yes.

Joe Rogan 17:07 ... and small businesses, yeah.

Michael Malice 17:08 And- and- and with no remorse.

Joe Rogan 17:09 Yeah, no remorse.

Michael Malice 17:10 There- there's not like, "Okay, we-" this is the thing that's so sick about politics, uh, we bailed out the banks in 2008, but there's not really any talk about like these, uh, stores that were the staples of their neighborhood, that gave it character-

Joe Rogan 17:24 Yeah.

Michael Malice 17:24 ... that made it special. It's like, oh, too bad, you know? It- it's- it's- it's disgusting and dis- like, uh, Chalam Japan barely reopened, but my favorite place in New York, um, Zenkichi, which is basically, you go in, it's a secret door. Every- every seat's like a Japanese, uh, it's like a tr- uh, Oriental Express train car. You're- you're not allowed to have kids in there. They haven't reopened. Eisendieck, which is the best ice cream store in the world, they're done. So, just store after store. And if you were opening a restaurant or a boutique or a bookstore, why would you do it in New York now?

Joe Rogan 17:53 Oh, for sure. Look, I have- I have friends who have restaurants in Los Angeles and they're talking to me about Austin. They're like-

Michael Malice 17:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:59 ... "Listen, man. I gotta get out of here." Because they're scared that anything, like- like the flu rolls around. The flu rolls around, like we already have a precedent that's been set (clears throat) where-... when something that kills people, um, which most diseases kills a certain amount of people-

Michael Malice 18:14 Of course.

Joe Rogan 18:14 ... because some people are very, very vulnerable. And when something can kill people, now they already have a precedent set where the government can come in and dictate whether or not you can be open and whether or not your business can function. And, and make it so that people no longer have the choice as to whether or not they would like to just take a chance-

Michael Malice 18:33 Right.

Joe Rogan 18:33 ... and go to a restaurant because the flu is around. Now you no longer have the chance because big daddy government is gonna look after you. And I have a friend whose brother works for the state, and he's a part of this whole COVID commission and told him point-blank... They were having a conversation about, in Los Angeles, about closing outdoor dining, and he said, "But there's been no transmission ever connected to outdoor dining." And the woman who wound up closing everything down said, "It's about the optics."

Michael Malice 19:04 Well, it's also gui-

Joe Rogan 19:05 But imagine, thousands of restaurants that are fucking barely hanging on after the pandemic-

Michael Malice 19:10 And p-

Joe Rogan 19:10 ... and then someone comes along and has the fucking balls or ovaries to say, "It's about the optics," and they're just gonna shut down-

Michael Malice 19:18 What about the waitstaff, right-

Joe Rogan 19:20 Yeah.

Michael Malice 19:20 ... who are not making good... What about the busboys-

Joe Rogan 19:22 Yeah.

Michael Malice 19:22 ... and the illegal aliens working in the kitchen, who are-

Joe Rogan 19:23 Everybody.

Michael Malice 19:24 They're, there's no r- remorse or concern for their, uh, uh, thinking.

Joe Rogan 19:27 The chefs-

Michael Malice 19:28 Right.

Joe Rogan 19:28 ... who, like, p- put their heart and soul into creating this menu and the, the business owners that have financed this. And it's fucking crazy.

Michael Malice 19:35 But what this has done is allowed, uh, educated urban people who live in a state of anxiety, neurosis, and fear to have an external reason for their state of mind. It's not that I'm messed up. It's not-

Joe Rogan 19:46 Right.

Michael Malice 19:47 ... that I'm a, a neurotic. It's that everyone is living under the gun, so it's appropriate that I'm living in this state.

Joe Rogan 19:53 Right.

Michael Malice 19:53 I don't have to look inward. I can look outward. Now COVID's obviously a very big deal. A lot of people have died. But it doesn't explain their extreme sense of terror. They're more scared of getting COVID than of having COVID-

Joe Rogan 20:06 Yes.

Michael Malice 20:06 ... because in their heads, if they get COVID, that means that they've done something wrong.

Joe Rogan 20:11 Yeah, moral superiority.

Michael Malice 20:13 Right.

Joe Rogan 20:13 (clears throat) Here's another meme that I love.

Michael Malice 20:15 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:16 Hold on. I'll send you this one, Jamie. This one I, I gotta go into my meme folder.

Michael Malice 20:20 Do you have a meme folder? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:21 Oh, yeah, I have a meme folder. Yeah, look.

Michael Malice 20:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:24 I'm not lying. Why would I lie? I don't lie. That's one thing that I don't do. It's not necessary. And it just gets in the way. This is, uh, this is one of my favorite. And this is something, uh, completely irrelevant. (clears throat) I'll send it to you, Jamie. Yeah, this, this anger about this. I think you're dead right about the anxiety levels that these people had already. I mean, some of these people are already fucking completely insane and falling apart just based on life, and then something comes along, and they're like, "Now everybody has to be like this." So as people were- (laughs)

Michael Malice 20:59 Yeah, yeah. They wanted you to die. Or they want-

Joe Rogan 21:02 This, (laughs) this is what I love though.

Michael Malice 21:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:03 "Already recovered," ha. That's exactly what happened.

Michael Malice 21:06 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:06 'Cause for the longest time, I was saying, "I don't think I'm worried about this," and people would get angry at me, and then I'd get it, and I recover quickly, and then they're even more angry.

Michael Malice 21:15 Right, because you were a bad person, you should have consequences for it.

Joe Rogan 21:18 Bad person for literally being healthy my whole life, bad person for working on it constantly, spending a shit ton of money to stay healthy, working a-

Michael Malice 21:26 A bad person for being skeptical of the corporate narrative.

Joe Rogan 21:30 Mm.

Michael Malice 21:30 The fact that you're calling them an a... Here's a question that, that I would love to have answered. If social distancing was efficacious in terms of, uh, s- COVID transmission, why aren't we doing it again? No one's talking about it. And if it didn't work, why did we do it to begin with?

Joe Rogan 21:43 Did you see the president and, uh, his wife walk through that restaurant today-

Michael Malice 21:47 With no masks.

Joe Rogan 21:47 ... completely mask less?

Michael Malice 21:48 Yes, of course.

Joe Rogan 21:49 Where there's a mask mandate?

Michael Malice 21:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:50 Ha ha.

Michael Malice 21:51 But it's, it's rules for thee, not for me.

Joe Rogan 21:53 (clears throat)

Michael Malice 21:53 That's their, that's their principle with everything.

Joe Rogan 21:55 Yeah, that is it.

Michael Malice 21:56 Gavin Newsom, we called him, you know, all, all... There was, there was a super cut of all these politicians who were just doing this hyp- hypocritical stuff.

Joe Rogan 22:01 The mayor of San Francisco recently got busted doing it.

Michael Malice 22:04 Rashida Tlaib-

Joe Rogan 22:05 Yeah.

Michael Malice 22:05 ... you know, she even said on camera, she's like, "Oh, the Republicans are here, so I have to put the mask on," kinda thing. It's just-

Joe Rogan 22:09 Yeah, LOL.

Michael Malice 22:10 But this is, this is why I'm so excited about social media, because if it wasn't social media, you wouldn't be able to call these people on their crap and have... There was that f- footage in, um, was it Wisconsin or Minnesota, where the k- where the, the reporter had a mask and the cameraman didn't.

Joe Rogan 22:24 Yeah.

Michael Malice 22:24 And people just put up their cellphones-

Joe Rogan 22:26 Exactly.

Michael Malice 22:26 ... and they filmed it and put... And e- So it was up on Twitter before the footage was up on the news station.

Joe Rogan 22:30 Do you think that anything would be... Do, don't you think it works both ways though, that it's also accelerating this sort of, this chaos too?

Michael Malice 22:40 Oh, I love... Isn't it great?

Joe Rogan 22:41 It's... Yeah. But it's also... I know you love that.

Michael Malice 22:43 I do.

Joe Rogan 22:45 (laughs)

Michael Malice 22:45 Oh, I love it.

Joe Rogan 22:45 I know you do. But don't you think that it's also, like, what, what would it be like if there was no s- social media in terms of the hyperbole, in terms of, like, the e- everything getting, uh, blown into this wild anxiety-ridden frenzy?

Michael Malice 23:00 We-

Joe Rogan 23:00 Don't you think that it ex- the social media also accelerates all of the anxiety?

Michael Malice 23:05 I think it-

Joe Rogan 23:06 I think it does both things.

Michael Malice 23:07 ... I think it, it, it, it, it, it... I think it's bifurcating things. There's two populations, right?

Joe Rogan 23:11 Hm.

Michael Malice 23:11 There's the popu- And we know what it would look like without social media 'cause it was after, uh, it was the Iraq war, because there really wasn't social media to that extent in-

Joe Rogan 23:19 Right.

Michael Malice 23:19 ... 2001, 2002, and the drumbeat for war was incessant.

Joe Rogan 23:24 Mm.

Michael Malice 23:24 And if you were saying we shouldn't go into Iraq at the time, it was much harder to get a message out. Uh, Colin Powell, who, as you just said, passed away earlier today, just went on the floor of the UN and said, uh, s- "Not only does Saddam have weapons of mass destruction. He's about to launch them." There wasn't really this kind of way to show contempt, uh, and have a parody... Like, if you go on, uh, Facebook, if you go on Twitter, if you go on YouTube, a New York Times account and a random jerk's account look basically the same. So, they do have that e- even playing field.

Joe Rogan 23:52 Yes.

Michael Malice 23:52 You didn't have that before social media.

Joe Rogan 23:54 Did you see that CNBC had a paid tweet by Pfizer?

Michael Malice 24:01 I, I mean-

Joe Rogan 24:01 A paid tweet to promote Pfizer and the vaccine.

Michael Malice 24:04 But they're promoting Pfizer for free.

Joe Rogan 24:06 Yeah, but, but a paid tweet.

Michael Malice 24:08 Okay.

Joe Rogan 24:09 But there's something about that.... where you have an organization that's responsible for the news-

Michael Malice 24:14 Right.

Joe Rogan 24:15 ... and they tweet something, and then it says, "Tweet paid for by Pfizer."

Michael Malice 24:19 Yeah, but Joe-

Joe Rogan 24:19 But so transparent.

Michael Malice 24:21 But that's good, because before, they would be in Pfizer's pocket and you wouldn't know about it 'cause you'd think they're being objective.

Joe Rogan 24:27 Oh, no. I agree. It's good to see it, because it confirms your suspicions.

Michael Malice 24:31 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:31 But it's also crazy they're not even hi- here, I'll send it to you, Jake.

Michael Malice 24:34 Well, here's another question. I'd like ask people on y- ask your Facebook friend, do you think the pharmaceutical companies have an incentive to force everyone to be their customer? And of course they do.

Joe Rogan 24:44 Yeah, look at that. Paid post by Pfizer.

Michael Malice 24:46 Wow.

Joe Rogan 24:47 Messenger RNA, a groundbreaking technology, has immense portrayal behind fighting infectious disease. This is how it works. Paid post by Pfizer. Meanwhile, th- one of the gentlemen who created the, uh, mRNA vaccine says it should never be r- used in a, uh, in a pandemic.

Michael Malice 25:03 Wow.

Joe Rogan 25:04 Have you seen that?

Michael Malice 25:05 I have not seen that.

Joe Rogan 25:05 That guy talk about it? Yeah, he was interviewed by, um, Jimmy Dore.

Michael Malice 25:09 Okay, who's great.

Joe Rogan 25:10 And so a long- yeah, who's great. It's a long conversation where they, they discuss mass vaccinations during a pandemic. And this guy, I don't know if he's right or wrong. I'm not a scientist, but this guy is very, uh-

Michael Malice 25:22 Just an equestrian?

Joe Rogan 25:24 Yes.

Michael Malice 25:24 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:24 I'm a horse. I'm basically a horse.

Michael Malice 25:26 Centaur.

Joe Rogan 25:27 (laughs) I'm healthy as a horse.

Michael Malice 25:28 Centaur Joe. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:29 (laughs) Again, sorry for being healthy. Sorry.

Michael Malice 25:32 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:34 Sorry. It's f- it's fascinating though. The ex- exposing of mainstream media. That's one thing that I'm very happy about.

Michael Malice 25:39 Corporate press. Don't call them mainstream 'cause they're not mainstream.

Joe Rogan 25:42 Right. This, this show is more mainstream than they are.

Michael Malice 25:44 Yes, it's the corporate press.

Joe Rogan 25:45 It's more mainstream by a factor of 10.

Michael Malice 25:47 Of course.

Joe Rogan 25:47 Which is pretty crazy.

Michael Malice 25:48 But it's also funny how they will do everything in their power to make you seem like you should be dismissed and not taken seriously.

Joe Rogan 25:54 Right. Yeah, but it's not working.

Michael Malice 25:55 No.

Joe Rogan 25:55 That, that's what's fascinating. But this, this framing of, uh, like, ivermectin as horse medicine was- I, I'm in, uh, in some ways, I'm really happy that they did it to me, because if they could have done it-

Michael Malice 26:08 'Cause you have the audience to-

Joe Rogan 26:09 Yes.

Michael Malice 26:09 ... to blast back. Did you see that super cut? Uh-

Joe Rogan 26:11 Yes. Yes.

Michael Malice 26:12 ... of, of just one after another, them laughing at you?

Joe Rogan 26:14 Yeah. Yeah, hilarious.

Michael Malice 26:15 It's- uh, but also, th- this is what's interesting. They kept saying that ivermect- first of all, it's like you c- called your dealer. You had it prescribed, right?

Joe Rogan 26:23 Yeah.

Michael Malice 26:23 So when they say, "It's not approved," it's not like you are using your own judgment. You're using the judgment of a medical professional, which is what they've been yelling for a year and a half, "Listen to the experts."

Joe Rogan 26:32 Well, not only that, I listed off a laundry list of medications, and that's the one they focused on.

Michael Malice 26:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 26:38 I said I took monoclonal antibodies. I said I took prednisone. I said I t- took Z-Pak. I said I had IV infusions of NAD and of vitamins, and I also took ivermectin. I mean, it should be no surprise. I had Dr. Pierre Kory, who is one of the doctors from the frontline, uh, critical COVID care group that has been treating people, including- by the way, 200 congress people have been treated with ivermectin for COVID. Did you know that?

Michael Malice 27:05 I did not know that.

Joe Rogan 27:05 Yeah.

Michael Malice 27:05 Holy crap.

Joe Rogan 27:06 Google that. 200. Uh, I believe you could probably find it in Dr. Pierre Kory's, uh, Twitter page. Yeah, be- before there were vaccines, this was a common treatment, off-label treatment for COVID. Now, I do not know what the motivation for demonizing this, this particular medication is. Uh, again, I'm not a doctor and I'm not a scientist. But I would imagine some of it has to do with money, the reason being is that it is a generic drug now. They've l- the patent is run out. So anybody can make it, and it's worth like 30 cents a dose. Now, Merck has its own antiviral that's supposed to do the same thing that they claim ivermectin does, as does Pfizer. They're both about to release it. I don't know if that's why the FDA is making snarky tweets about it being veterinary medicine. But I do know that it was used for humans for fucking years-

Michael Malice 28:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:01 ... before they ever started using it for animals. And I also do know that there is a massive amount of medications that have veterinary applications, including penicillin.

Michael Malice 28:11 Well, Joe, it's like me calling Child Protective Services 'cause my neighbor was feeding her baby cat food, and by cat food, I mean milk.

Joe Rogan 28:16 Yeah. Right. (laughs)

Michael Malice 28:17 It, it, it- I mean, it's, it's insane. Like-

Joe Rogan 28:19 It's insane.

Michael Malice 28:20 ... dogs take Xanax and-

Joe Rogan 28:21 Yes.

Michael Malice 28:21 ... all these other things. So it, it's-

Joe Rogan 28:22 Wait a minute. Dogs take Xanax?

Michael Malice 28:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:24 People have, like, anxiety-ridden dogs?

Michael Malice 28:26 Of course.

Joe Rogan 28:27 I gu- guarantee it's the person.

Michael Malice 28:28 Or, uh, cats. Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:29 Yeah. Come over to my house. My dog just lays there and lets you rub his belly.

Michael Malice 28:31 I know. I met your- I met Marshall. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:32 Yeah. (laughs)

Michael Malice 28:32 He's a sweet- he doesn't need Xanax.

Joe Rogan 28:33 Because he's fucking-

Michael Malice 28:34 He's a dog. He's happy.

Joe Rogan 28:35 ... he's chill. Yeah.

Michael Malice 28:36 Yeah. Yeah. Um, but-

Joe Rogan 28:38 Actually, some people get rescue dogs. I should take that back.

Michael Malice 28:40 Sure.

Joe Rogan 28:40 'Cause I- I did had a dog that had anxiety 'cause I got her when she was two when she was little.

Michael Malice 28:43 Or maybe it's an older dog gets a puppy and the dog doesn't know what to do. You know, there, there's situations, whatever.

Joe Rogan 28:48 Yeah, yeah.

Michael Malice 28:48 Yeah. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:48 That could- they think they're-

Michael Malice 28:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 28:50 ... yeah, that could happen.

Michael Malice 28:50 Um, but I don't think it's necessarily about the money so much as it's, it's about obedience.

Joe Rogan 28:56 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 28:56 Because they're the ones who are promulgating how everyone has to act. And then you have this guy from Austin over here, this comedian, uh, telling people there was another way and the science isn't as settled. And all of a sudden, their sense of authority is diminished because when you have choices, that means that person w- who wants to be the one to go to no longer is the one who has all the answers.

Joe Rogan 29:17 Well, this is what is so funny about that. They don't understand that when they say things that are absolutely untrue, it diminishes their authority. They don't- they're, they're not even aware of what they're doing. Like when d-

Michael Malice 29:30 But they have an alternative.

Joe Rogan 29:31 When Don Lemon goes on-

Michael Malice 29:32 You see that lie?

Joe Rogan 29:33 ... with Sanjay Gooper-

Michael Malice 29:34 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:34 ... Gupta and says, "Actually, it really is a veterinary medicine. It really is de-worming horses."

Michael Malice 29:38 No, but that's not what he- this is- this was the lie. He goes, "It's not a lie to say it's also used as horse medicine." He goes-

Joe Rogan 29:44 That's not what you said.

Michael Malice 29:45 Yeah, that's not what you said. You didn't say-

Joe Rogan 29:46 Yeah.

Michael Malice 29:46 ... "This drug, which also is used for horses..." Uh, uh, what relevance is that?

Joe Rogan 29:50 It doesn't have any relevance. Exac- exactly what we were just talking about with penicillin-

Michael Malice 29:53 Right.

Joe Rogan 29:53 ... and, and with, like, a, a gigantic number of medicines that also have veterinary applications.

Michael Malice 29:59 Of course.

Joe Rogan 29:59 But by doing that, you just m- you just proved my point. They, they don't even understand what they just did. You, you think no one's g- like, it's gonna end with you? See, 'cause it used to be that way. They would say something and no one would have recourse.

Michael Malice 30:13 Do you know what this is-

Joe Rogan 30:13 But when you're saying something-

Michael Malice 30:15 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:15 ... and then the person you're saying it about has literally ten times the audience you do, you dumb motherfucker, do you know what you did? You just proved my point.

Michael Malice 30:23 (laughs) But do you know what this is like? This, do you re- uh, you and I are old enough to remember, uh, the WWF, right? So, you had the WWF and then you had the NWA, which was the alternative wrestling organization, which was much smaller. And you'd have the wrestlers come over from NWA to WWF, and they pretended these people came outta nowhere. And then one time they brought over Ric Flair, and Bobby Heenan held up Ric Flair's belt, and this was their first acknowledgement of this other organization. And here's the other thing, to look at NWA just had to change the channel. It's not like it was existing-

Joe Rogan 30:53 Hmm.

Michael Malice 30:53 ... in some weird-

Joe Rogan 30:53 Yeah.

Michael Malice 30:54 ... netherers, netherers. But this is how they want to construct reality, that you not, you don't listen to Joe, you listen to Don Lemon telling you what Joe says, and you don't have that independent way to inform yourself.

Joe Rogan 31:09 They need better people. They need people that are respected 'cause it's not that CNN is, uh, uh, beyond repair.

Michael Malice 31:17 I think they're beyond repair.

Joe Rogan 31:18 I don't think they are. Look, I know Jeff Zucker, the head of... He's a nice guy. I know Jeff. I worked for him.

Michael Malice 31:23 Okay.

Joe Rogan 31:24 When I worked at, in NBC when I was the host of Fear Factor, Jeff Zucker was the president of NBC. He's a great guy. It's just, they're... It's like everything else. These people are managing at scale. And, but, you, you can't allow people to say things that are absolutely untrue when you have a fucking news organization. And it's not about my feelings. Oh, Joe Rogan's feelings are hurt. Like, I like it when my feelings get hurt. How about that?

Michael Malice 31:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:48 I like it. I hurt my own feelings. Like, there's not a fucking human being that's a, a worse critic of me than me. All right? That's not what the problem is.

Michael Malice 31:56 Well, challenge accepted. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:59 (laughs)

Michael Malice 32:00 But listen, listen you butt-head.

Joe Rogan 32:02 (laughs)

Michael Malice 32:02 Let me tell you something, Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan 32:04 (laughs) The look on your face. You are the ultimate troll. You should fuck- for sure have a crown. For sure have, like, the king of trolls-

Michael Malice 32:13 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 32:14 ... and wear that. You should wear that with certain posts.

Michael Malice 32:17 But dude, I disagree with you because when you're saying that you can't just have people lying, we're all taught in high school about yellow journalism-

Joe Rogan 32:23 Yeah.

Michael Malice 32:23 ... and the Spanish-American War-

Joe Rogan 32:24 Yeah.

Michael Malice 32:24 ... and they lied to get us into that.

Joe Rogan 32:26 Mm-hmm.

Michael Malice 32:26 Then there's a record scratch and they pretend that they're objective. They've been lying for a very, very long time. Here's another very easy example. We were told that unless we have boots in the ground in Syria, which means American troops dying, the Kurds are gonna be exterminated from the face of the earth.

Joe Rogan 32:41 Right.

Michael Malice 32:41 This is gonna be another genocide. All of the boots weren't on the ground, the Kurds were not exterminated, the story vanished from the headlines, and none of those people advocating for war who were claiming if we don't do this it's gonna be genocide had any consequences for their lies.

Joe Rogan 32:56 You're 100% right. I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you something, Jamie, 'cause this is also, uh, something that I wanna say. This is one of the reasons why I think Substack is so fucking amazing. Uh, I am-

Michael Malice 33:05 And that's why they have to demonize it, 'cause it's an end run around their bullshit.

Joe Rogan 33:08 Exactly. But this is like, this is what, uh, Glenn Greenwald is using, and Matt Taibbi is using, and Bari Weiss is using. Uh, I want, I want you to play this. This is, um, uh, Bari on-

Narrator 33:21 You're right, there are tens of millions of Americans-

Joe Rogan 33:22 No, get it, get it from the beginning.

Narrator 33:23 ... who aren't on the hard left or-

Joe Rogan 33:23 Play it from the beginning. Yeah, there we go.

Narrator 33:25 You're right, there are tens of millions of Americans who aren't on the hard left or the hard right who feel the world has gone mad.

Joe Rogan 33:32 This is Brian Stelter-

Narrator 33:33 So, in what ways has the world-

Joe Rogan 33:33 ... and Bari Weiss.

Narrator 33:33 ... gone mad?

33:35 Well, you know, when you have the chief reporter on the beat of COVID for the New York Times talking about how questioning or pursuing the question of the lab leak is racist, the world has gone mad. When you're not able to say out loud and in public that there are differences between men and women, the world has gone mad. When we're not allowed to acknowledge that rioting is rioting and it is bad, and that silence is not violence but violence is violence, the world-

Michael Malice 34:03 Good for her.

Narrator 34:03 ... has gone mad. When we're not able to say that Hunter Biden's laptop-

Michael Malice 34:07 Look at his face.

Narrator 34:08 ... is a story worth pursuing, the world has gone mad. When, in the name of progress, young school children as young as kindergarten are being separated in public schools because of their race and that is called progress rather than segregation, the world has gone mad.

Joe Rogan 34:25 Hmm.

Narrator 34:26 There are dozens of examples that I could share with, with you-

Joe Rogan 34:29 Wow.

Narrator 34:29 And you often say-

Michael Malice 34:30 She's so done.

Joe Rogan 34:31 Look at, look at him. Look at him.

Narrator 34:32 ...

Joe Rogan 34:32 Yeah.

Narrator 34:33 You say, "We're not allowed."

34:34 It's the chasm between-

34:34 "We're not able." Who is the people stopping-

Michael Malice 34:36 It's you, you asshole.

Narrator 34:38 ... the conversations more than they?

34:39 Um, people that work at networks (laughs) , frankly, like the one I'm speaking on right now-

Michael Malice 34:45 Hell yeah.

Narrator 34:45 ... who try and claim that, you know, it was-

Michael Malice 34:48 Look at his face.

Narrator 34:48 ... it was racist to investigate the lab leak theory. It was-

34:52 But who said that at CNN?

34:53 I mean, let's just take an example.

34:53 But I'm just saying, though, uh, when you say allowed, I just think it's a provocative thing to say. You're saying, you're saying-

Joe Rogan 34:57 Okay, stop.

Narrator 34:57 ... you're saying we're not allowed.

Michael Malice 34:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:58 I can't take his voice. But this is a-

Michael Malice 35:00 Have you seen where Mark Dice does an impression of him?

Joe Rogan 35:02 No.

Michael Malice 35:02 He has these videos of Brian Stelter. He goes, "It's Brian Stelter. I really gotta go into the movies and look at this." He just dubs over it.

Joe Rogan 35:08 I think a lot of these folks don't have friends, and they, they don't have this sort of, like, this feedback loop-

Michael Malice 35:15 Well, I think it's a-

Joe Rogan 35:16 ... that you get from having friends.

Michael Malice 35:17 ... circle jerk, don't you think?

Joe Rogan 35:17 Yes.

Michael Malice 35:17 It's just they're friends with each other.

Joe Rogan 35:19 Well, yeah. Right, right, right. But I mean, you got... I think friends are like your diet. It has to be varied, you know?

Michael Malice 35:25 Of course.

Joe Rogan 35:25 And it, it has to be nutritious. Like you, you-

Michael Malice 35:27 I love it having friends who call me on my bullshit.

Joe Rogan 35:29 Yeah, it's important.

Michael Malice 35:29 They do it once.

Joe Rogan 35:30 It's important. (laughs)

Michael Malice 35:31 And that's it. Once. But it's important to get it once.

Joe Rogan 35:33 Duly noted. Click. Block. Delete. (laughs)

Michael Malice 35:37 Holy shit, he's been watching my stuff. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 35:42 (laughs) Yeah, it's, um... These are extraordinary times. But because Bari Weiss used to work at the New York Times and decided enough of this bullshit-

Michael Malice 35:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 35:50 ... and has the, the courage and the principles to leave. And now she's got over 100,000 people on her Substack. And please subscribe to her Substack 'cause it's excellent. She's a-

Michael Malice 36:01 And she's a lefty.

Joe Rogan 36:02 Yes, she's a lefty.

Michael Malice 36:02 There's, I mean-

Joe Rogan 36:03 Yes, hardcore lefty.

Michael Malice 36:04 They are, even with this, um, uh, what do you call it, um...... COVID stuff and vaccine stuff. They're still trying to make it about Trump.

Joe Rogan 36:10 Yeah.

Michael Malice 36:11 And that if you're not getting the vaccinations it's because you're a Trump supporter, which has a complete non sequitur.

Joe Rogan 36:15 Right.

Michael Malice 36:15 Uh, but they're so, if you, they're so focused on creating their own, uh, uh, little narrative that anything outside that really, they don't know how to engage with it.

Joe Rogan 36:24 Well, they have a playbook.

Michael Malice 36:25 Yes.

Joe Rogan 36:25 And it's only, like, two pages long. And one of them is somebody has to be the bad guy.

Michael Malice 36:29 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:29 And the bad guy, you know, when it comes to this COVID stuff is anybody who questions the narrative-

Michael Malice 36:35 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:36 ... anybody who goes over the data and finds flaws in it-

Michael Malice 36:39 Right.

Joe Rogan 36:39 ... anybody who has some sort of an alternative perspective, "You're the bad guy and you're Trump." You know? And that's what they attempted-

Michael Malice 36:46 And you want people to die.

Joe Rogan 36:47 ... to do to me. Yeah.

Michael Malice 36:48 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:48 And that's what this is all about, this, this weirdness that's going on. And when, uh, someone like Bari Weiss, who you can't put in that box, goes on CNN and just says something more sensible, more poignant than anybody who's ever fucking said anything on that network. When, when that happens, you realize you got a problem, 'cause the great minds are not there. The people that are saying things that are important and critical and crucial to our understanding of why we're so fucked right now, they're people like Bari Weiss. They're the people that go on these networks and say, "Hey, this is fucking madness." And when you, "What's madness? What's wrong? What? Who says that? No one on CNN." (laughs)

Michael Malice 37:25 It's really funny when he says, "Who's saying that?" when they literally put on the screen the New York Times saying it.

Joe Rogan 37:31 Exactly. Not only that but, like, he's saying, "Who's stopping people from saying that while you're talking over us?"

Michael Malice 37:36 CNN threatened to sue someone for making a meme of Trump wrestling the CNN Logan, logo.

Joe Rogan 37:42 Really?

Michael Malice 37:42 So... Yes. You didn't know this?

Joe Rogan 37:45 No.

Michael Malice 37:45 They made a meme of a guy, Trump wrestling a, uh, they put CNN's logo, and they tried to find out who it is and they said, "We still reserve the right to sue you."

Joe Rogan 37:53 Do not-

Michael Malice 37:53 That's who's stopping people.

Joe Rogan 37:54 Do not tell my legal team about this, 'cause they're ready to go.

Michael Malice 37:57 Well, it's not like they listen to this show. (laughs) Do you, can you pull this up, Jamie?

Joe Rogan 38:00 (laughs) Let me see this article.

Michael Malice 38:02 CNN threatens lawsuit meme. This was a while ago.

Joe Rogan 38:05 That's hilarious.

Michael Malice 38:05 It's not hilari- I'm sorry, it's not hilarious at all.

Joe Rogan 38:07 No. No.

Michael Malice 38:07 When you're threatening, a, a giant corporation are threatening some kid in his mom's basement, in this case it's probably literally true, with a lawsuit for making a clearly humorous wrestling mean, meme. You are the evil corporations in every '80s dystopian sci-fi movie.

Joe Rogan 38:22 Are we sure this isn't just some lawyer who works at CNN who oversteps his bounds?

Michael Malice 38:26 Uh, you can find the exact quote.

Joe Rogan 38:28 Let's... I would like to know what happened.

Michael Malice 38:28 You could find the exact quote. I thought it was the PR person who said this.

Joe Rogan 38:31 That... Well, that PR person is crazy.

Michael Malice 38:33 They're not crazy. They're smart, 'cause they know they have the power and they're gonna use it.

Joe Rogan 38:36 But they're crazy in that now we know about it because it became a national story.

Michael Malice 38:40 Sure. Sure. The Streisand effect.

Joe Rogan 38:41 And we're... And the wor- exactly.

Michael Malice 38:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 38:43 The Streisand effect's beautiful. It really is. It's a beautiful thing. And it's the th- it's a thing about the internet. Like, the, the, if people don't know the Streisand effect, will you please explain how it happened with her house?

Michael Malice 38:53 Sure. Barbara St-

Joe Rogan 38:53 The story.

Michael Malice 38:53 There was some picture of, uh, I, I don't remember exactly, of basically a bunch of houses on the beach.

Joe Rogan 38:57 She has this massive house, I think, like, over l- on a bluff.

Michael Malice 39:01 Malibu, I think it was.

Joe Rogan 39:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Malice 39:02 And someone somewhere just identified, "Oh, this is Barbra Streisand house." She t- tried to s- she sued h- and then no- had no views. She sues him or threatens a lawsuit, it blows up, and as a consequence of her trying to keep it hidden, it became 100 times more visible than it would've been otherwise.

Joe Rogan 39:17 Yes.

Michael Malice 39:17 So if she just kept her mouth shut and let it blow over, none of this would've happened.

Joe Rogan 39:21 Yeah, well, every fucking famous person... This is a crazy thing. Like, once the internet happened, I think she's legacy media, right? She didn't underst-

Michael Malice 39:27 She's clearly, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:28 Yeah. As like when... You know, Barbra Streisand's 1,000 years old. When she was a kid and, you know, and, and super popular, the, everything was controlled. Those were the days when Lyndon Johnson used to take a shit with the door open-

Michael Malice 39:38 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 39:38 ... and talk to the press when everybody knew that Kennedy was having affairs and no one said anything. This is a different world. And then, you know, you didn't publish the address of people who were, uh, you know, considered celebrity royalty. Like, Barbra Streisand is celebrity royalty.

Michael Malice 39:53 For sure.

Joe Rogan 39:53 Right? She's o- uh, did she win an Oscar? I think she's won an Oscar.

Michael Malice 39:56 She's, she's got... She's at EGOT. She's got all four of them.

Joe Rogan 39:58 Yeah. She's got everything.

Michael Malice 39:59 Yes.

Joe Rogan 39:59 So she's, she's literally, like, legacy royalty. And for her to say this, like, "You can't show a picture of my house."

Michael Malice 40:06 "Don't you know who I am?"

Joe Rogan 40:07 Everybody's like, "What house?"

Michael Malice 40:08 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:09 Where's the-

Michael Malice 40:09 Oh, Barbra's house. I wanna see Barbra's house.

Joe Rogan 40:11 Where is this house?

Michael Malice 40:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:12 Dude, I mean, my house was formed under an LL- or I bought my house under an LLC. I did all this stuff to hide it. And we were, they were all talking about, "Don't worry. You're... It'll be private." And I started laughing.

Michael Malice 40:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:24 I was like... (laughs) I go, "Private?" I go, "Th- there's no private anymore."

Michael Malice 40:30 Of course.

Joe Rogan 40:30 That shit doesn't exist.

Michael Malice 40:32 But d- did you find it, Jamie?

Narrator 40:34 Uh, yes and, uh, well, sort of. I, I, trying to find, like-

Joe Rogan 40:37 The CNN logo?

Narrator 40:37 I found CNN's version of what they said happened-

Joe Rogan 40:40 Oh, we can't read that.

Narrator 40:41 ... which is... Well, I know, I know, but, like, I was trying to... There's no... Not a lot of articles about this.

Joe Rogan 40:43 Right after they have a pop-up that says, "Race deconstructed."

Michael Malice 40:46 What the-

Joe Rogan 40:46 What the fuck does that even mean?

Michael Malice 40:47 No, but d- if you just look for CNN threats lawsuit-

Narrator 40:49 No, no, no.

Joe Rogan 40:49 Okay, sorry.

Narrator 40:50 I did. There was a bunch-

Michael Malice 40:50 Okay.

Narrator 40:50 ... of people like Trump threatening lawsuits to CNN that was taking over all of the search results.

Michael Malice 40:54 There you go. This is the one.

Narrator 40:55 So here's another site that talked about-

Joe Rogan 40:56 Okay.

Narrator 40:56 ... what happened, but I don't have the story 'cause it's behind a paywall.

Joe Rogan 40:58 But let's go for the independent. It says, "CNN accused of blackmailing Reddit user behind Trump's wrestling meme."

Michael Malice 41:03 And there's the meme. It's clearly a joke. It's a g-... They put a CNN logo over a person's head.

Joe Rogan 41:08 Right, right. "Any assertion that the network coerced or blackmailed the user is false, says CNN." Well, maybe it is false.

Narrator 41:17 Well, so that's why I was... So I went to what CNN had-

Joe Rogan 41:19 Yeah.

Narrator 41:19 ... and they actually... Like, it goes deeper into the person that they talked to and then this, who's a person on Reddit, wrote these apologies, which then seems that's a little like... I don't see anybody on Reddit really ever doing that.

Joe Rogan 41:30 Hmm.

Narrator 41:30 It may have happened, but that's not typical for-

Joe Rogan 41:32 Well, listen to what he says. Well, he might've been joking. He says, "First of all, I'd like to apologize to the members of the Reddit community for getting this site and this sub embroiled in controversy that should have never happened, it should never have happened," he wrote. "I would also like to apologize to the post the, to the... oh, for the posts that..."

Michael Malice 41:52 Posts made, yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:53 For the posts made that were racist, bigoted and anti-Semitic. "I am in no way this kind of person. I love and accept people of all walks of life and have done so for my entire..." Oh, he probably got contacted at work.

Michael Malice 42:03 Of course he did.

Narrator 42:03 Yeah, so they had said they almost doxed, they basically doxed him-

Michael Malice 42:05 They doxed him.

Narrator 42:06 ... trying to find out who made this.

Joe Rogan 42:07 Uh, hey, go, z- z- z- go back, go back, please. Um, "I am not the person that the media portrays me in real li- me to be in real life. I was trolling and posting things to get a reaction from the subs at Reddit." That's the thing that people have to understand about, like, Reddit and 4chan and all that stuff.... these people are having fun and they're saying things that are wildly inappropriate because they're wildly inappropriate.

Michael Malice 42:30 And anonymous.

Joe Rogan 42:30 Right. They're n- this is not their actual feelings on this subject. When you read something and you see a frog with a Hitler helmet on, it's not that you're anti-Semitic. It's that it's ridiculous to do.

Michael Malice 42:41 But, but CNN was saying this meme was them, was him calling for-

Joe Rogan 42:45 Right.

Michael Malice 42:45 ... violence against CNN. That's a lie.

Joe Rogan 42:47 But did they really say that-

Michael Malice 42:48 Yes.

Joe Rogan 42:49 ... openly? That's what we need to find out.

Michael Malice 42:50 Yes.

Joe Rogan 42:51 Because CNN said they did-

Michael Malice 42:52 J- if, if you search for the words "CNN reserves the right," I'm pretty sure you'll find where they're threatening to, uh, lawsuit.

Narrator 42:59 Well, yeah. Well, it says, the C- on this part, it says, "CNN reserves the right to publish his identity should any of that change."

Joe Rogan 43:03 Oh, my God. What?

Narrator 43:06 It says they were not going to publish-

Joe Rogan 43:07 Should any of what change? Any of what change? This is on CNN? Holy shit.

Narrator 43:12 Yeah, this is, that's what I was trying to say. Like, this was, that's why I used their words.

Joe Rogan 43:16 Hold on. CNN is not publishing, uh, this gentleman, uh, name, because he is a private citizen who has issued an extensive statement of apology for that fucking nonsensical meme.

Michael Malice 43:28 Can you show the meme? Can you show how silly it is?

Joe Rogan 43:30 Uh, well, let's go to, hold on. Showed his remorse by saying he has taken down... Oh, my God. All his off-

Michael Malice 43:36 But, wait. So-

Joe Rogan 43:37 This is on CNN, so this g-

Michael Malice 43:38 But, but, Joe, the last sentence is most important. "His statement-"

Joe Rogan 43:40 Yes.

Michael Malice 43:40 "... could serve as an example to others to not to do the same."

Joe Rogan 43:43 Yes.

Michael Malice 43:44 If you make fun of us-

Joe Rogan 43:45 Yes.

Michael Malice 43:45 ... we're gonna find out who you are-

Joe Rogan 43:47 But, but also-

Michael Malice 43:47 ... and we're going to dox you.

Joe Rogan 43:48 But also, before that, look at this, "And because he said he is not going to repeat this ugly behavior on social media again."

Michael Malice 43:56 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:57 And then it also says, "CNN reserves the right to publish his identity should any of that change." Holy shit, that's a threat.

Michael Malice 44:04 Of course it's a threat.

Joe Rogan 44:06 That is awful.

Michael Malice 44:06 But they also reserve the right, I'm, I'm-

Joe Rogan 44:08 But post-

Michael Malice 44:09 ... 99% sure to sue him.

Joe Rogan 44:10 Please post that meme again, because the meme is so innocuous. And what year is this? This is, like, 2017?

Michael Malice 44:16 It's 2017. You can see at the very top in the URL.

Joe Rogan 44:17 Okay. So that, isn't it crazy that the world's changed that much in four years? 'Cause it really has.

Michael Malice 44:23 How so? I mean, they're still pulling this shit.

Joe Rogan 44:25 (laughs)

Michael Malice 44:25 This is happening now.

Joe Rogan 44:25 Yeah, but they would never say, they would never say anything like this anymore.

Michael Malice 44:28 Yes, they would.

Joe Rogan 44:28 I don't think they would.

Michael Malice 44:29 Oh, in a second.

Joe Rogan 44:29 I don't think they would. I don't think-

Michael Malice 44:30 They said worst about you.

Joe Rogan 44:32 Yeah, but I think the podcast... No, they haven't. No, they haven't. By saying I took horse medication?

Michael Malice 44:37 I, I'm s- I, I mean, they're trying to make you out to be a clown and, uh, they're, see, uh, Gupta called this the lion's den. Like you're some kind of antagonistic-

Joe Rogan 44:44 No, no, no, no, no, no. Listen, Gupta is a nice guy. Let me, let me, let me clarify this, 'cause this is important, 'cause Gupta is getting attacked. Sanjay Gupta is a neurosurgeon. He's a guy who worked literally, like, a fucking 110 hours a week for years and years and years to become a neurosurgeon.

Michael Malice 44:59 Sure.

Joe Rogan 44:59 He's a socially awkward, introverted guy who's a medical pundit on CNN.

Michael Malice 45:05 Right.

Joe Rogan 45:05 When he's communicating with them and he's doing these, like, short form conversations, when he's dealing with, like, a powerful personality like Don Lemon, it's very difficult to get your point across. One of the things that he's been accused of that is not correct is that people said that he agreed that it was a veterinary medicine. That's not what he agreed. What, what Don Lemon said, Don Lemon said that it was also used as a horse dewormer and it's not approved by the FDA for use for COVID. And he said that's correct. That's what, what he meant was, it's not approved for COVID. He tried to talk and Don interrupted him, and he actually called me and we had a conversation about this.

Michael Malice 45:46 Okay.

Joe Rogan 45:47 He, he's not a bad guy. He's a very good guy. But he's also a guy that is a real practicing neurosurgeon, right? So, he's insanely busy and he's not up on all this propaganda and-

Michael Malice 46:00 Wait a minute. You don't think he got... I, I don't know about that. I don't know. So, I'm t- I'm asking l- from a place of ignorance-

Joe Rogan 46:05 Okay.

Michael Malice 46:05 ... not a place of gotcha. Do you not think that they gave him a call after this show and said, "You gotta go on Don Lemon and do damage control"?

Joe Rogan 46:14 Um, I think they invited him to go on Don Lemon's show and talk about it, for sure.

Michael Malice 46:19 Yeah, of course.

Joe Rogan 46:19 And he also went on Erin Burnett's show and talked about it.

Michael Malice 46:20 Yeah. And they, if they had their druthers, they would ignore you, and they don't have that option anymore.

Joe Rogan 46:24 The Erin Burnett one is hilarious.

Michael Malice 46:25 Oh, I haven't seen that one.

Joe Rogan 46:26 Because, uh, I said to him, 'cause he said, "You should get a vaccine even though you've already had COVID." And I said, "Why would I do that?" I said, "You should get COVID." I go, "You'd have real protection."

Michael Malice 46:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 46:36 And Erin Burnett apparently... I haven't seen that. Have you seen it? Go to, his appar- my wife said it is a comedy sketch.

Michael Malice 46:42 Oh, okay.

Joe Rogan 46:42 She goes, it's so hilarious. She goes, it's bad acting, like soap opera acting. She goes, like, "Do you think he really wanted you to get COVID?"

Michael Malice 46:49 Oh, my God.

Joe Rogan 46:49 Like, app- I haven't seen it, so we should watch it together in real time.

Michael Malice 46:53 Yes, please. Please.

Joe Rogan 46:53 But it's-

Michael Malice 46:54 But that is worse than what they said with the C-... They're saying, if they're implying that you want him to get COVID, that's really bad.

Joe Rogan 46:59 I do think he should get COVID.

Michael Malice 47:00 No, but you don't want him to get COVID in the sense that you hope he, I hope he gets sick.

Joe Rogan 47:03 No. I, I think it'd be good for his immune system.

Michael Malice 47:05 You want him to... Right. But you want him to get COVID and get healthy, not get COVID and die.

Joe Rogan 47:09 Exa- 100%.

Michael Malice 47:11 You-

Joe Rogan 47:11 I, I love that guy. I really do. I, I, I really love him. I think he's a really nice guy. I really do. I really, really do. I l- I'm, I'm a fan of Sanjay Gupta as a person. I have had, uh, m- many chances to talk to him. I'm gonna send you something else, Jamie, that's important.

Michael Malice 47:28 Okay.

Joe Rogan 47:28 Um, I like him. Like, uh, my, uh, my dealings with him, uh, whether it was on the show or off the show-

Michael Malice 47:34 Oh, I can't wait.

Joe Rogan 47:35 ... were nothing but flattery.

Michael Malice 47:35 I can't wait. I can't wait.

Joe Rogan 47:36 Let me hear this.

Narrator 47:36 Oh, hold on. Whoa.

Joe Rogan 47:38 Yeah. (laughs)

Michael Malice 47:40 Past.

Narrator 47:43 If you're, like, 21 years old-

Joe Rogan 47:44 No, no, no. This is not-

Narrator 47:45 ... and you say to me should I get vaccinated-

Joe Rogan 47:46 This is not, this is not what I want.

Narrator 47:47 It's no longer okay, so you're fine.

Joe Rogan 47:48 But go, go to the part, this is all just old stuff.

Narrator 47:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:50 This is me and him talking. Yeah, go ahead. Hit it there.

Narrator 47:54 ... vaccinated. But I think a lot of people should- You're talking, you're talking a lot of vulnerable people.

Joe Rogan 47:57 Yeah.

Narrator 47:57 If, if you just said vulnerable people, there'd be a lot of people- Yeah, older people, fat people, other, other, other, I think a lot of those folks. My real concern is this urge to vaccinate children.

Joe Rogan 48:06 Yeah.

Narrator 48:07 And I don't know what kinda data we have on the long-term effects of this, and I don't know what kinda data we... And when you look at the study that shows that the 12 to 15-year-old boys are four to six times more likely, or what, is that the number? Was that... Whatever the number was.

Michael Malice 48:22 Yeah, microdosing, yeah.

Narrator 48:22 Much more likely. That scared the (beep) outta me.

Joe Rogan 48:25 Beep.

Narrator 48:25 Th- th- thankfully, it's really small numbers, period, right? Right. Period.

48:30 All right. Sanjay is with me now.

48:32 Yeah, let's �...

Joe Rogan 48:32 Go ahead, please, Sanjay.

Narrator 48:32 And Sanjay, of course, is also the author of the new book, World War C: Lessons from the COVID-19 Pandemic and How to Prepare for the Next One. So, Sanjay, look, I think this is really important-

Joe Rogan 48:43 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 48:44 ... because Joe Rogan is listened to, uh, and, and popular with a lot of people who aren't consuming mainstream media and mainstream science, right? (alarm) So you went on there, I know-

Joe Rogan 48:53 Hold on. Pause.

Narrator 48:54 ... to talk to him.

Joe Rogan 48:56 Pause, pause, pause. How the fuck does she know that?

Narrator 48:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:58 Well, here... Just... But hold on a second.

Narrator 49:00 I, I'll tell you how she knows it. I'll-

Joe Rogan 49:00 Yeah, but this, this is nonsense. This, this-

Narrator 49:02 I'll tell you how she knows it.

Joe Rogan 49:03 ... framing this narrative that th- I'm popular with people that don't consume mainstream media?

Narrator 49:08 Here's how I know, uh, just the math. If you have a million viewers and they have 1,000, then you have 999,000 people who aren't consuming them. That's just math.

Joe Rogan 49:16 Okay.

Narrator 49:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:17 I see what you're saying. Not consuming them.

Narrator 49:19 Yeah.

49:20 Right, yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:20 But t- but that's not real because... Okay, if that's mainstream media, but mainstream media has thousands-

Narrator 49:27 Of course.

Joe Rogan 49:28 ... of options.

Narrator 49:28 They're trying to make it out that-

Joe Rogan 49:30 Right.

Narrator 49:30 ... people either listen to them or are crazy.

Joe Rogan 49:32 Right. Exactly.

Narrator 49:33 That's the framing.

Joe Rogan 49:34 But meanwhile-

Narrator 49:34 We are the truth.

Joe Rogan 49:35 ... we've already, we've already proven that they're deceptive with this whole-

Narrator 49:38 At best.

Joe Rogan 49:38 ... horse dewormer shit.

Narrator 49:39 Yes.

Joe Rogan 49:39 At best. So go ahead-

Narrator 49:40 I can give you another example in a second.

Joe Rogan 49:41 Play it again.

Narrator 49:42 Yes. And to talk to people who listen to him. You talked to him for more than three hours. So what was the main reason that you made the decision to do that?

49:53 Yeah, I think it's exactly that, Erin. I mean, it, it's this idea-

49:55 Wait, can we pause this?

49:56 ... that, you know, we've been at this-

49:56 I'm sorry, wait, wait.

49:56 ... for a couple of years.

49:57 Hold, hold, hold on. Can we pause this? The main... Uh, uh, this is not a, a knock on him, but isn't it clear that the main reason he was here was to sell his new book?

Joe Rogan 50:06 That, um, no, I invited him here.

Narrator 50:08 No, but his... 'cause his book just launched and more power to him.

Joe Rogan 50:11 Yeah.

Narrator 50:11 I hope people buy it.

Joe Rogan 50:11 Yeah, but he... Let me, let me explain how-

Narrator 50:14 Please.

Joe Rogan 50:14 ... it all went down. We have a mutual friend. Um, our mutual friend reached out to me and said, "Sanjay Gupta would like to connect with you." And I said, "Really?"

Narrator 50:24 Was this recently?

Joe Rogan 50:24 It was a f- month or so ago.

Narrator 50:26 Okay.

Joe Rogan 50:27 And I said, "Really?" And he goes, "Yeah." He goes, "Sanjay Gupta listens to your podcast all the time, and he's a fan of the show and he wants to talk to you." So I say, "Okay." So we connect, exchanged a couple text messages, and then we make a phone call. And the phone call is, like, 45 minutes long. And one of the things that he said is, "I l- I love the fact that you have this camaraderie with all your friends."

Narrator 50:47 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:47 And he goes, "It's a really wonderful thing to see. I really enjoy your conversations." He goes, uh, "I think you're a very open-minded and curious person."

Narrator 50:54 Yes.

Joe Rogan 50:54 "I think that's really interesting." And we have this really fun talk. There's never a discussion of him doing my podcast.

Narrator 51:00 Okay.

Joe Rogan 51:01 It was just fun talk. And then he says, um, "I would love to have dinner with you." And I said, "I would love to have dinner with you too." And I, I told him that I really respected the way he, uh, altered his opinion on marijuana when confronted with new data, and we, we, we had a great conversation. And then he reaches out and, um, tells me that, you know, he's going to be in Austin a certain amount of time, you know, at a, at a certain point in time. And I said, "Well, I can't do that time." I go, "But listen, if you ever wanna come in and do the podcast, I mean, if you like the podcast, I'd be... I'd love to have you on. I'd love to talk to you." And he said, "Let me see if I can do that."

Narrator 51:36 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:36 So and then-

Narrator 51:37 He had to get it cleared, yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:37 Yeah. And so, uh, and then he says, "Would you be willing to be on CNN as well?" And I said, "Fuck no." I said, "I don't wanna be on..." Because I'm not... I'm worried about editing.

Narrator 51:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:46 You know, I just... Uh, and they've already done it. They did it with these-

Narrator 51:48 Right, of course.

Joe Rogan 51:48 ... these clips.

Narrator 51:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:49 And this is exactly what I was worried about. And it's not... He's not an editor. It's not in his hands.

Narrator 51:53 And they need you more than you need them.

Joe Rogan 51:55 Well, I didn't think about it that way. I'm just like, I just don't trust editing.

Narrator 51:59 Right.

Joe Rogan 51:59 I just don't 'cause it's... Like, long form is where it's at, you know? And it's one thing a clip edited, like, these clips of me and Sanjay having disagreements about... whether it's about horse dewormer or whether it's about, uh, children being vaccinated.

Narrator 52:12 You're right, right.

Joe Rogan 52:12 These are, like, 10-minute clips and they're not edited, not by me at least.

Narrator 52:16 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 52:16 These are long-ass clips. I think that's fair. But these... what they do on CNN, they take, like, 30-second soundbites where I'm like, "You should get COVID." You know? Like... (laughs)

Narrator 52:25 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:26 (laughs)

Narrator 52:26 Yeah, I hope you get COVID, Sanjay. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:28 So, so play it on, though. Keep playing.

Narrator 52:29 Now, uh, I think w- we talk about this obviously on, on your program, on CNN all the time, uh, but there's, there's a lot of people who still aren't getting the message. And I, I don't know. I... Maybe it was a silly idea of mine, but I, I wanted to go talk... If... I think if you're serious about public health, you've got to go reach people who aren't typically hearing these messages. And I think it's Joe. I also felt that Joe was willing to have a dialogue. I mean, we had talked on the phone a couple of times.

52:56 Okay.

52:57 Mm-hmm.

52:57 He wanted to have this conversation, so I thought there was room for a real dialogue out of which maybe some new, some new knowledge for his listeners could come.

53:05 So, eh, I played part of the vaccination conversation, but as I said, it was three hours, so it wasn't the only time-

53:10 (laughs)

53:11 ... you tried to convince Rogan to get vaccinated. I wanted to play another instance during an exchange that-

53:16 (laughs)

53:16 ... you had when you, you guys were talking about immunity to COVID.

53:21 Testing is obviously testing you to see if you have the virus.

Joe Rogan 53:25 Yeah.

Narrator 53:25 The therapeutic is to treat you because you have the virus.

Joe Rogan 53:28 Yes.

Narrator 53:28 I still think it'd be better not to get the virus.

Joe Rogan 53:31 I think you'd be better to get the virus and recover and have amazing immunity to it.

Narrator 53:35 But what... Like, uh-

Joe Rogan 53:36 Wouldn't it be?

Narrator 53:36 Well, you could get sick, though.

Joe Rogan 53:37 You know what I think you should do?

Narrator 53:38 Get sick.

Joe Rogan 53:38 I think you should get vaccinated and then get sick.

Narrator 53:41 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:41 But this is why.

Narrator 53:43 Why, why? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:43 Because then you got... The vaccine protects you from a bad infection, and then you get COVID, so then you get the robust immunity that's imparted from having-

Narrator 53:52 Okay.

Joe Rogan 53:52 ... the actual disease itself, which is far more complex and comprehensive than you're getting from the vaccine that targets one specific-

Narrator 53:59 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:59 ... protein, right?

Narrator 54:00 I could... Uh, you could make that argument, I think.

Joe Rogan 54:01 Yeah, so that's the move.

Narrator 54:02 So-

Joe Rogan 54:02 You get-

Narrator 54:02 All right.

Joe Rogan 54:03 Get vaccinated, let it wane and hang around with a bunch of dirty people.

Narrator 54:07 (laughs) Okay. Well, I, I, I-

Joe Rogan 54:08 And then get a lot of therapeutics on hand, so you can take care of it quickly.

Narrator 54:12 (laughs)

54:12 I will see your recommendation and-

Joe Rogan 54:15 You wanna do it?

Narrator 54:15 ... and give you a recommendation.

Joe Rogan 54:16 Should have come out with us last night-

Narrator 54:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:17 ... probably would have caught it. (laughs)

Narrator 54:19 (laughs) I almost did. Yeah. Now I know, now I know what your secret plan was.

Joe Rogan 54:23 No.

Narrator 54:24 No, th- but, but what... But, uh, so-

Joe Rogan 54:26 Now watch this.

Narrator 54:27 So for you, Joe Rogan-

Joe Rogan 54:28 Here it is. Yes.

Narrator 54:29 ... I would say you've had it.

Joe Rogan 54:30 Yes.

Narrator 54:31 So now get one shot of the vaccine.

Joe Rogan 54:32 No.

Narrator 54:33 Why not?

Joe Rogan 54:33 Because I have better immunity than I would if I was vaccinated.... no, but here you go.

Narrator 54:38 Okay. So, Sanjay, I mean, as many times you try to explain that, I mean, the obvious things of nobody knows how long that natural immunity lasts-

Joe Rogan 54:45 But they know. Hold on, but hold on.

Narrator 54:45 ... or how it differs from person to person. And of course, it would only be better if you had the vaccine on top of it, all of these basic facts. Um-

Joe Rogan 54:52 Basic facts. (laughs)

Narrator 54:52 Do you feel like-

Michael Malice 54:53 Basics, right.

Narrator 54:53 ... you broke through, or that he will ever embrace the vaccine?

54:58 I, I, I really, it, I don't think so. (laughs)

55:01 Yeah.

55:01 I mean, you know, I hate to say that, but he just was very steadfast in this. And when I cited him data saying, "Hey, look, there is the, uh, the people who have natural immunity, people who have vaccinated immunity. And while they, the natural immunity may be strong for a period of time, reinfection rates are twice as high among people who have natural immunity versus vaccinated immunity."

Michael Malice 55:20 I don't think that's true. Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.

Narrator 55:21 All this data and he didn't-

Michael Malice 55:22 Stop. Stop. Stop. I don't think that's true. Did he say that to you on the show?

Joe Rogan 55:25 No, he did not. I don't... And if he did, I would have challenged him. That I, I don't... N- not only do I-

Michael Malice 55:28 I've never heard that before. He could be right, I'm not a doctor.

Joe Rogan 55:30 Not only do I, not only do I not believe that's true, but people who have been vaccinated have had breakthrough cases and died. I think the number of people who have had COVID twice and died on the second time is incredibly small. I was reading an article about this recently where they were trying to find instances of people who caught COVID, survived, got the antibodies, and then died on the second case. Everyone that I know, I know four people that have... I know 13 people now that had breakthrough cases. So, another thing that he said during the show that I didn't challenge, he said that, "Breakthrough cases are, uh, incredibly rare." They're not incredibly rare, with time-dependent... The, let's Colin Powell is a breakthrough case.

Michael Malice 56:09 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:10 But he, he, obviously, he has a different situation-

Michael Malice 56:12 Of course.

Joe Rogan 56:12 ... because he had cancer. But I know 13 fucking people that have had breakthrough cases.

Michael Malice 56:16 Micaela had it, Peterson.

Joe Rogan 56:17 Did she?

Michael Malice 56:18 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:18 Breakthrough case?

Michael Malice 56:18 Yes.

Joe Rogan 56:19 Yeah. Um, the number of people that have gotten COVID and recovered, and then had it again and then died is so small. Not only that, they think that... There was an article that published recently, and I know I'm giving you a lot to Google, Jamie, that, that said that there was a study that b- they believe that the antibodies imparted from natural infection are not only more robust, they're six to 13 times better based on the Israeli study of 2.5 million people. Six to 13 times better than the, the immunity that's imparted from the vaccine. But this study from this, uh, the, when they were dealing with SARS, they're showing people that have immunity of SARS-CoV-1, right? The original one. That it's better, it's, it's better... It's not just better than the vaccine, but people have immunity from SARS that have recovered from it 18 years later. Like, this article that was recently published with, with a study, they were saying, they believe that it imparts lifetime immunity. It may impart lifetime immunity. So, what she's saying, we don't know-

Michael Malice 57:26 Can we rewind a little bit-

Joe Rogan 57:27 ... how long-

Michael Malice 57:27 ... because it sounded so crazy.

Joe Rogan 57:28 But what we do know... Well, here's another thing we do know. Johnson & Johnson, there was an article about the Johnson & Johnson. I'm giving you too much to Google. Well, I'm, I wanna pause you.

Narrator 57:36 Oh, yeah. I found, uh, a recent article, so September...

Joe Rogan 57:42 "COVID-19 antibodies persist, reduce reinfection up to six months, study finds." Yeah, but the problem is that's like, "Did not differ significantly over the six-month period." Okay. "The antibodies' ability to neutralize COVID-19 did not differ significantly over the six-month period." The problem is they're dealing with... We only have a limited amount of time, right? We only have 18 months-

Michael Malice 58:03 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 58:03 ... of people even having this disease. But here's what we do know. If they did not differ significantly, the vaccine did differ significantly.

Michael Malice 58:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 58:12 Massively. In fact, the Johnson & Johnson, find this one, it went from 88% to 3% in six months. That's fucking wild.

Michael Malice 58:23 Well, they always talk about how you need boosters.

Joe Rogan 58:25 Yeah.

Michael Malice 58:25 So, this is not even in dispute that the, the vaccines are limited. I, I, I was under the impression... And again, I'm not Sanjay, I'm not a doctor, that once you have it, you're set for a very long time-

Joe Rogan 58:34 Yes.

Michael Malice 58:34 ... in terms of your antibodies.

Joe Rogan 58:35 Yes.

Michael Malice 58:35 So, I thought that was in, not in dispute.

Joe Rogan 58:37 It's not in dispute, except at CNN, and this is why it's a problem. And when she's saying that the people that listen to this podcast don't consume mainstream media, maybe that's why.

Michael Malice 58:47 Right. Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:47 Maybe what you just did is why. Here it is. "The researchers found that among more than 600-"

Michael Malice 58:56 Up to 88 to 3, yeah, wow.

Joe Rogan 58:56 Yeah. "... 600,000 veterans, the J&J vaccine's protection fell from 88% in March to 3% in August."

Michael Malice 59:06 Moderna, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:07 Moderna looks pretty good. "Moderna's vaccine protection against infection fell to 64% from 92%." Pretty fucking good. "And Pfizer's declined to 50% from 91%."

Michael Malice 59:17 So, that's like half. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:17 Yeah.

Michael Malice 59:17 Half as effective.

Joe Rogan 59:18 The Moderna one, though, has the most side effects because it's the most potent.

Michael Malice 59:22 Okay.

Joe Rogan 59:23 Um, so the thing is that Johnson & Johnson is the least potent. And Fauci has said recently that they should have probably made the Johnson & Johnson for two doses, not for one.

Michael Malice 59:32 But it's also the way they discuss th- the vaccine, there's several vaccines, and they're trying-

Joe Rogan 59:36 Yes.

Michael Malice 59:36 ... to act as if these are interchangeable-

Joe Rogan 59:38 Exactly.

Michael Malice 59:38 ... when that data is clearly showing the, the opposite.

Joe Rogan 59:40 Well, when... Exactly. They're, they're clearly showing that that's the opposite, and they're also clearly showing a decline. Well, we know about the decline, and we also know that there's no decline, at least in six months, with natural immunity.

Michael Malice 59:50 Natural immunity, yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:51 So, she's, she's saying this.

Michael Malice 59:53 Can we-

Joe Rogan 59:53 And I don't know how much research she's done. I don't, I don't wanna give Erin Burnett a hard time. I don't know how much research she's done. I know she's probably got a narrative that she's been given by producers.

Michael Malice 1:00:02 But if you don't have research, don't say it's a fact. Just say, "As far as I know," or, "My understanding is," 'cause you have a doctor there who can correct you.

Joe Rogan 1:00:10 Yes.

Michael Malice 1:00:10 That's her job to be like, "Look-

Joe Rogan 1:00:11 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:00:11 "... why is the medical correspondence there if you don't know?"

Joe Rogan 1:00:13 But, Michael, you've done a lot of these shows, and I think part of... And this is, again, I, I don't... I have no disagreement with Erin Burnett. I, I, I think the problem is these goddamn short-form shows. This is no way to discuss something that's inc- incredibly nuanced, and very difficult to discuss, and very important. And you're dealing with the differences in there's so many variables in terms of age, in terms of immune systems, health.

Michael Malice 1:00:37 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:00:37 There's so many factors that we need-... to take into consideration when we're talking about people that get sick.

Michael Malice 1:00:42 But I disagree with you because it's not a short form thing. Like you said, I've done a lot of these shows, and a lot of times, I'm talking out of my ass. So, what I make sure to say is, "It is my understanding..." or, "As far as I know..." or, "I was under the impression that..."

Joe Rogan 1:00:54 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:00:55 You coach it in those terms so the person listening will be like, "This is my opinion, and I'm not completely informed." She is saying these are, this is her quote, "basic facts."

Joe Rogan 1:01:04 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:01:04 That's a very different way of framing what she's saying.

Joe Rogan 1:01:06 Well, also when she's saying that you're not gonna talk him into getting the vaccine, I don't fucking need the vaccine. Don't you understand? I've recovered from COVID.

Michael Malice 1:01:13 And why is it so important for her to have him talk you into taking this vaccine?

Joe Rogan 1:01:17 Because this is the narrative.

Michael Malice 1:01:18 Right, exactly.

Joe Rogan 1:01:19 This is the mainstream narrative, and they know that if they say it that way, they won't receive any criticism except for from fringe people like me.

Michael Malice 1:01:25 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:25 But if they say it any other way, then people will come down on them and call them an anti-vaxxer.

Michael Malice 1:01:31 Right, right.

Joe Rogan 1:01:31 They're calling fucking Eric Clapton an anti-vaxxer. He's been vaccinated.

Michael Malice 1:01:35 And a ra- and a racist. Did you see the- what the Rolling Stone did?

Joe Rogan 1:01:38 I s- I didn't see what Rolling Stone did, but I saw what the LA Times did.

Michael Malice 1:01:40 The Rolling Stone, I believe it was Rolling Stone, had an article about the history of Eric Clapton's racist remarks. So, as soon as he c- pushes back the narrative, they go digging, and now he's a racist.

Joe Rogan 1:01:49 What did he say that they said was racist?

Michael Malice 1:01:50 I didn't read the article. What do I, what do I care?

Joe Rogan 1:01:52 Yeah, good for you. Well, th- the Rolling Stone also printed a completely fake story about gunshot victims in Oklahoma-

Michael Malice 1:01:58 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:01:59 ... needing to wait to get into the ER-

Michael Malice 1:02:02 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 ... because there were so many people that were overdosing on horse medication.

Michael Malice 1:02:06 And didn't they have-

Joe Rogan 1:02:06 Which is a fucking total lie. Not only that, the amount of ivermectin you would need to take to have an overdose is fucking massive.

Michael Malice 1:02:13 But Joe, didn't they also have a picture of people lining up outside wearing winter coats-

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 Yes.

Michael Malice 1:02:16 ... and they were dark. They were dark-

Joe Rogan 1:02:16 Wearing winter coats in Oklahoma.

Michael Malice 1:02:18 And the article was in the summer.

Joe Rogan 1:02:19 Yes.

Michael Malice 1:02:20 Yes, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:20 In Oklahoma in fucking August.

Michael Malice 1:02:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:22 It's so dumb. It's so dumb. Oklahoma is-

Michael Malice 1:02:24 It's not dumb because if you were raised to look at these people as arbiters of truth, you would never think to question them.

Joe Rogan 1:02:31 Well, Rolling Stone's a weird thing 'cause it's more of a culture magazine than it is anything.

Michael Malice 1:02:34 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:02:35 But they're venturing into this clickbait world, and that's what this is. This is clickbait.

Michael Malice 1:02:40 I don't think it's clickbait at all.

Joe Rogan 1:02:41 Ne-

Michael Malice 1:02:41 I don't think they expect people to click on that headline. I think they just wanna pass a narrative. They're not expecting you to read that article about what Eric Clapton said that was racist. They're expecting you to think Eric Clapton equals racist equals bad.

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 Well, maybe that. Maybe the Eric Clapton thing. But I think they do want you to click on it because that's where they make their money. It's, it's just-

Michael Malice 1:02:56 They're not interested in money. They're interested in power.

Joe Rogan 1:02:58 Oh, I don't think that's the truth with Rolling Stone.

Michael Malice 1:03:01 Oh.

Joe Rogan 1:03:01 With Rolling Stone Magazine, I- I have a- a- a deep respect for journalism, and I have a s- deep sympathy for the times they're in because no one is buying print anymore.

Michael Malice 1:03:10 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:03:10 Right? Everyone's consuming everything online.

Michael Malice 1:03:12 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:03:12 The only way to get clicks is to... I have friends that are journalists that tell me their editors tell them this, that you have t-... Even if you're being deceptive in your headlines, and maybe sometimes they will submit something with one headline and it'll, it'll be changed without their knowledge.

Michael Malice 1:03:30 But yeah, they often don't write their own headlines. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:31 Right, exactly. It'll be changed.

Michael Malice 1:03:33 I've had that happen. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:34 That's, that's the issue. And they're trying to get as many people to click on it as possible, and if they can do it by being deceptive, it can make a difference of 10, 15% clicks, which is huge, or maybe even more. They're, they're fucking starving, right? There's no one paying for this shit. No one's paying for journalism. Very few. I pay for a few. But very few people are paying to subscribe to New York Times or the Washington Post or Rolling Stone. They're just get- consuming things online, and they have an abundance of options when there's so many options. To get people to click on things, you have to make it inflammatory. You have to make it outrageous.

Michael Malice 1:04:10 I th- but I also think making it inflammatory gives them power because if you're the one who's getting an emotional reaction of a person, you're creating a bond with them.

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 I- I see your point, but I don't think that's the motivation. I think the motivation is not power. It's finances. I think they're trying to make money.

Michael Malice 1:04:26 I-

Joe Rogan 1:04:26 They're trying to make money in a dying business.

Michael Malice 1:04:28 If they were trying to make money, they would've changed their tactics over the last few years, and they haven't. They've just been doubling down on that which is destroying them, thank God.

Joe Rogan 1:04:36 Yeah, but clickbait is a good tactic if you wanna get people to click on your stuff.

Michael Malice 1:04:39 But I, but you're s- if it's working, then why are they dying?

Joe Rogan 1:04:42 Well, they're dying because they're just in a bad market.

Michael Malice 1:04:44 But, and that's just an excuse.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 But no.

Michael Malice 1:04:46 Like, every market's bad if you, uh, uh... Every market is good or bad, doesn't mean the individual organization's gonna do well or poorly.

Joe Rogan 1:04:52 I think the only people that are thriving in this market are the Matt Taibis and the Glenn Greenwalds and the Bari Weisses who are independent, who have low overhead, and have moved to Substack.

Michael Malice 1:05:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:01 Those are the people that are thriving because people are like, uh, m- someone... Or, they're Alex Berenson. Someone please tell me the truth. Tell me the truth. Tell me.

Michael Malice 1:05:09 Yeah, but this is also why people who are work at these kind of institutions, like, uh, um, uh, they do not have it in them to have people attract them on a personal level.

Joe Rogan 1:05:18 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:05:18 So, they have to repeat the party line because someone who works for, let's suppose, Reason Magazine, isn't gonna be someone who's podcast you're gonna wanna listen to or the Substack you're gonna subscribe.

Joe Rogan 1:05:26 Maybe. Maybe they are. You know what I mean? Like, look, there's a lot of individuals that work for these organizations that are kinda trapped inside of these weird-

Michael Malice 1:05:33 Of course.

Joe Rogan 1:05:34 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:05:34 Because that's the only way they get status and stature because they have that credential. If they were i- i- in s- on Substack or in the free market, no one's gonna listen to what they have to say.

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 Or, they started out 20 years ago-

Michael Malice 1:05:45 Sure.

Joe Rogan 1:05:45 ... and it was a viable option.

Michael Malice 1:05:46 Right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:46 You know, 2001, that was the way to go.

Michael Malice 1:05:48 Oh, oh, hell yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:49 Yeah.

Michael Malice 1:05:49 I work at the New York Times. My parents bragged about me to my friends.

Joe Rogan 1:05:51 Yeah. Dude, I used to deliver it just because it was a cool thing to deliver.

Michael Malice 1:05:55 Really?

Joe Rogan 1:05:55 You know... Yeah, yeah.

Michael Malice 1:05:56 You were a paper boy?

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 Yes, I was a paper boy. But I used to del- I was proud to deliver the New York Times. I used to deliver the Boston Globe. That was my main account, and then I also had the Boston Herald, and I got a New York Times account. I was like, "Oh, I'm delivering the New York Times." But it was too much of a pain in the ass 'cause I