Joe Rogan Experience #1765 - Philip Frankland Lee

Philip Frankland Lee 0:00 (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Narrator 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience. (rock music)

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. So, Phillip, my friend Phillip here, who's the head chef of the greatest sushi place on planet Earth.

Jamie Vernon 0:19 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:20 I say to young Jamie, "Young Jamie, have you had sushi at Sushi Bar ATX yet?" And he goes, "I don't like fish."

Jamie Vernon 0:28 Yep. (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 0:29 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 0:30 Put that mic in front of your face.

Jamie Vernon 0:31 What's wrong with that?

Joe Rogan 0:32 What is ... What, what could you not like about fish?

Jamie Vernon 0:35 Um, well, I've ... Like, I've eaten it. I'm not, like, afraid to try it all the time. I've worked at restaurants and, you know, they've made really great halibut and-

Joe Rogan 0:42 Okay, what about filet-o-fish sandwiches from McDonald's?

Jamie Vernon 0:45 Oh, no, that's not ...

Joe Rogan 0:45 How ... What the fuck? Those are goddamn delicious.

Jamie Vernon 0:48 It's like a smell and taste to it that just ...

Philip Frankland Lee 0:50 I mean, have you, have you tried fish ... I mean, obviously, you know, a filet-o-fish sandwich is not gonna be, you know, $100 pound toro. Um-

Joe Rogan 0:58 But it's still delicious. Filet-o-fish is like the best thing McDonald's ever figured out.

Jamie Vernon 1:04 I ... No.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05 Listen ... Yes. Listen, I know it's terrible for you. Like, every time I eat one, my ... I'm, I'm ... There's like the brain is saying to the mouth, "What the fuck is wrong with you?" And then the body's like, "Dude ..." But the mouth's like, "Shut up, bitch." And I'm having-

Jamie Vernon 1:18 I don't know, man. I'm steak and potatoes from Ohio. Like, it's just ... That's, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:21 I enjoy steak and potatoes as well though.

Jamie Vernon 1:23 I just ... It's, uh, uh, I don't know.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:26 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:26 Some people just-

Jamie Vernon 1:27 It's hard to say.

Joe Rogan 1:27 I always wonder if people just have ... Like, if their tongue works different. Like, uh, I have two, my youngest daught-... You've met my kids, right?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:36 My youngest loves spicy food. I mean, she can fuck with some really spicy hot sauce. Like, uh, I got this, uh, Señor Lechuga, uh, uh, hot sauce. They sent me a bunch of it. It's awesome stuff. And they sent me some with, uh, Reapers.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:52 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:52 I mean, it's got a fucking kick to it.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:54 I don't have it.

Joe Rogan 1:54 And, uh, I ... And she goes, "What's that hot sauce?" And I go, "This one might be too hot for you." She goes, "Let me try." I go, "You serious?" And she's, like, dipping her finger into this Reaper sauce. She goes ... (smacks lips) "I can handle it." I go, "Wow, she's 11." And she's-

Philip Frankland Lee 2:09 That's gnarly.

Joe Rogan 2:09 It's gnarly. My 13-year-old will not fuck with it at all. She's like, "Ew." She, she, she barely likes c- crushed red pepper on pizza. Like, she can't handle that.

Philip Frankland Lee 2:18 Yeah, I mean, everyone's a little bit different with the way that they're ... You know, like, coffee, I hate coffee.

Joe Rogan 2:23 That's so odd to me.

Philip Frankland Lee 2:24 I think the flavor is disgusting. And I ... It's, it's ... You know, I've definitely had that conversation w- with people before, and they're like, "Well, you haven't tried the right coffee."

Joe Rogan 2:31 Right.

Philip Frankland Lee 2:31 And I've tried everybody's who suggested that. I just think it tastes disgusting. It tastes burnt.

Joe Rogan 2:37 Do you not like caffeine, or do you not like-

Philip Frankland Lee 2:39 Well, I don't do caffeine.

Joe Rogan 2:41 None?

Philip Frankland Lee 2:42 My body doesn't, doesn't work well with it.

Joe Rogan 2:43 What happens when you have caffeine?

Philip Frankland Lee 2:45 I just get shaky.

Joe Rogan 2:46 Oh, really?

Philip Frankland Lee 2:46 I, I think I kinda OD'd on, uh, on Red Bulls when I was younger.

Joe Rogan 2:50 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 2:51 I used to drink, like, four, five a day, and then one day, I just ... Just didn't work anymore.

Joe Rogan 2:56 Did you see that, uh, refrigerator that we have out in the hallway that's a Black Rifle Coffee refrigerator?

Philip Frankland Lee 3:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:00 They have these cans of Black Rifle Coffee. It's like a, a cold ... It's like espresso with milk and sugar. It's so fucking good. They're so delicious. But there's 300 milligrams of caffeine-

Philip Frankland Lee 3:14 Yeah, it could probably kill me.

Joe Rogan 3:15 ... in every can.

Philip Frankland Lee 3:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:17 (laughs) I mean, what is a Red Bull? A Red Bull's like, I'mma guess, 150? Is a Red Bull ... Let's guess. How many, how many milligrams?

Philip Frankland Lee 3:26 Not even a ... No idea.

Joe Rogan 3:28 I don't know.

Philip Frankland Lee 3:28 Too many.

Joe Rogan 3:29 What is it?

Jamie Vernon 3:29 A 12 ounce can, it says 111.

Joe Rogan 3:32 Okay, that ain't shit.

Jamie Vernon 3:33 It's got that taurine. I'm just kidding.

Philip Frankland Lee 3:34 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:34 Oh, it's got that bull cum.

Jamie Vernon 3:35 No, no, it's got other stuff in it, but ...

Joe Rogan 3:36 Do you know taurine is bull cum?

Philip Frankland Lee 3:38 I do now.

Joe Rogan 3:39 Da- (laughs)

Jamie Vernon 3:40 (laughs) I don't know if Red Bull has it, but I mean, sure.

Joe Rogan 3:42 I think that was the original ... Hitler was into that stuff apparently.

Philip Frankland Lee 3:45 Yeah, I mean, that shit'll give you wings, right?

Joe Rogan 3:47 I think that's the whole reason why Red Bull has a bull on it and it has taurine. I think the bull's supposed to ... I don't think they get it that way. I think-

Jamie Vernon 3:53 I actually ... Yeah, it says, it says, uh, this says it has 1,000 milligrams of taurine.

Joe Rogan 3:57 Oh, Jesus.

Jamie Vernon 3:58 I don't know if ... That's a lot compared to some of that stuff.

Joe Rogan 4:00 Yeah, I don't know if that ...

Philip Frankland Lee 4:01 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:01 That might be a small amount.

Jamie Vernon 4:03 (laughs) I don't know.

Joe Rogan 4:03 I have no idea. I have no reference point. But here's the thing. Um, you gave me this. Thank you very much.

Philip Frankland Lee 4:08 Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 4:09 This is, uh, it says the Yamazaki single malt Japanese whiskey, and you said that this is, uh, a-

Philip Frankland Lee 4:15 So, yeah. So, the Yamazaki sherry cask, uh, 2016, this bottle won, I can't remember which, you know, whiskey world awards or whatever, but it did win gold. Um, and so this became, like ... I don't wanna call it the Holy Grail, but it became one of the most sought after bottles of whiskey in modern times.

Joe Rogan 4:35 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 4:36 And, uh, mainly not just because of how, the fact that it won gold, but they only made enough to produce 5,000 bottles. And so the bottles have been gone for quite some time.

Joe Rogan 4:46 Listen to this. Here we go. Oh, that smells good. I have a buddy, my buddy Alex. Shout out to Alex. He's, uh, he's really into, like, really nice Japanese whiskey.

Philip Frankland Lee 4:59 He'll get a g-

Joe Rogan 4:59 Here you go.

Philip Frankland Lee 5:00 He- he'll, he'll ... He knows this.

Joe Rogan 5:01 Give me that glass, son. Come on.

Philip Frankland Lee 5:03 Give me just, just a, just a touch.

Joe Rogan 5:04 We need to share it. Just a touch.

Philip Frankland Lee 5:06 'Cause that, that bottle's gotta last. There's not many left.

Joe Rogan 5:08 Come on. Nothing lasts.

Philip Frankland Lee 5:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 5:11 What, are you gonna live forever? Cheers, my friend.

Philip Frankland Lee 5:13 Cheers.

Joe Rogan 5:18 Oh, wow, that's interesting. That-

Philip Frankland Lee 5:20 It's almost, like, ethereal. It's like ...

Joe Rogan 5:23 God, that's unique.

Philip Frankland Lee 5:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:25 That is very unique. That's a, um, surprising taste, because it is whiskey-like.

Philip Frankland Lee 5:33 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 5:33 But it's very different than any other whiskey I've ever tried.

Philip Frankland Lee 5:36 It's also like ... Feel now, it's almost like tingling, like, all around your palate.

Joe Rogan 5:40 Hmm. So, when did you know that you wanted to be a chef? Like, how long have you been, like, really into cooking? 'Cause you're a young guy. By the way, congratulations on the Michelin stars.

Philip Frankland Lee 5:51 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 5:52 That's a-

Philip Frankland Lee 5:52 Thank you.

Joe Rogan 5:52 That's giant, right? In the world of chefs, that's, that's the fucking thing, right?

Philip Frankland Lee 5:56 Yeah, um, I'd- I mean, I dedicated the last ...... probably 15 years of my life just to trying to get a Michelin star and, uh, when I found out this year, uh, they had me on a, on a Zoom call. They kind of, they kind of lied to me. They kind of, uh, what they did is they said, uh, "We wanna..." They said, first of all they said, "You're not gonna, you're not getting a star this year, just so you know. But we wanna have, uh, send someone to the restaurant in Los Angeles and, um, we have some interview questions we wanna ask you about, uh, you know, how it was to operate during COVID." And I said, "Well, I'm in Austin, but I, I can fly back." And they're like, "No, no big deal, don't fly back. Just, just Zoom in." So I zoom in and they have my wife, uh, who's our pastry chef and my business partner, um, she's at the restaurant and so is my brother who is the chef of, uh, uh, Sushi Bar in Montecito, uh, and our chef at, uh, Pasta Bar, and they're all three there, uh, just in the restaurant and I'm at my house here in Austin and I'm on Zoom. And they start asking us some random questions about, uh, you know, how is it... You know, "What's it like being open and what have been the, the, the, you know, pitfalls you had to overcome." And, uh, then out of nowhere they just go, "Oh, and, um, I have one extra question. Um, uh, congratulations. Uh, two of your restaurants are getting Michelin stars."

Joe Rogan 7:16 Oh, they snuck it in on you.

Philip Frankland Lee 7:17 They snuck it in. And I'm on-

Joe Rogan 7:19 Oh.

Philip Frankland Lee 7:19 And the thing is, I'm on a Zoom and so I was like, "Wait, what? What did she say?"

Joe Rogan 7:22 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 7:22 Like I couldn't, I couldn't hear and, and everyone's, it, it... And I thought we had just gotten one and it turned out they said, "No, no, no." And I said, "Wait, what, which res- which restaurant?" And they said, "Sushi Bar, Montecito and, uh, uh, and Pasta Bar." And, uh, I just started-

Joe Rogan 7:39 And Pasta Bar is in LA?

Philip Frankland Lee 7:40 Pasta Bar is in LA, and, um, I just started crying. (sniffs)

Joe Rogan 7:43 Wow.

Philip Frankland Lee 7:44 Yeah, so...

Joe Rogan 7:45 I've, I was just reading, uh, on the history of the Michelin star and that it was really back in the early days of travel.

Philip Frankland Lee 7:53 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 7:53 They had a book would show you where you can get your car repaired, where you could refuel, and then where you can get something to eat.

Philip Frankland Lee 8:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 8:01 And then people got really obsessed with the where to get something to eat part, and then it became a separate entity.

Philip Frankland Lee 8:08 It was never sep-... I don't think they ever set out to become the world standard on cuisine. I don't think that was ever the point. The point was we have to give you a reason to buy tires and that reason is to drive, and so here's some things to drive to. And so, that's what the one star, two star, three star, you know, delineations have t- have to do with is this one is worth, you know, a stop, this one's worth a detour, and this one's worth a journey.

Joe Rogan 8:37 Oh.

Philip Frankland Lee 8:38 And so that's how you get one star, two star, three star. So, one star means if it's on your way, stop. That was over 100 years ago. Now, one star means, you know, fly there. But three star means, like, upend your life and go figure, like, go find that place.

Joe Rogan 8:52 We... What's, what's that? Who's got three stars?

Philip Frankland Lee 8:55 Uh, here in America, not many people.

Joe Rogan 8:57 McDonald's.

Philip Frankland Lee 8:57 McDonald's, yes.

Joe Rogan 8:58 McDonald's Filet-O-Fish.

Philip Frankland Lee 8:58 I think they have, I think they have four stars actually.

Joe Rogan 9:01 (laughs) Is there, is there, uh, anywhere in America that has three?

Philip Frankland Lee 9:06 Uh, yeah, a couple, a couple places.

Joe Rogan 9:07 Like what?

Philip Frankland Lee 9:08 Uh, The French Laundry has three stars.

Joe Rogan 9:10 Oh, okay. That's that place where Gavin Newsom got in trouble, right? I watched a video on that, um, not on that, but on, uh, Bourdain, when Bourdain, uh... I think it was the old show. I think it wasn't even... I think it was No Reservations.

Philip Frankland Lee 9:22 No Reservations? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 9:22 Yeah, and he went to French Laundry. It was pretty fucking incredible.

Philip Frankland Lee 9:26 Yeah, I've only got to eat there once but it's, I mean, it's a, it's an institution.

Joe Rogan 9:30 It's that good?

Philip Frankland Lee 9:31 Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it, it... For a long time, it was the restaurant in America.

Joe Rogan 9:37 Mm. The?

Philip Frankland Lee 9:38 It was the restaurant in America.

Joe Rogan 9:39 And isn't it kind of a weird spot? Like, you gotta travel?

Philip Frankland Lee 9:42 Yeah, but that's part of sort of the allure of... And not to say they wouldn't be a three star restaurant without, you know, having that, uh, that part of traveling, but three stars is when you're worth the journey.

Joe Rogan 9:53 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 9:54 And, um...

Joe Rogan 9:54 So, it could be in, like, the Himalayas or some shit.

Philip Frankland Lee 9:56 Yeah, I mean, a lot of some of the, the three star restaurants around the world are not in, you know, they're not in strip malls. They're not in city centers. They're, you know, they've bought ranches, they've bought, uh, you know, they have land.

Joe Rogan 10:08 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 10:08 El Bulli was on the top of a mountain.

Joe Rogan 10:10 Where's El Bulli?

Philip Frankland Lee 10:11 Well, that's been closed for a long time, but that was in Spain.

Joe Rogan 10:14 Oh, yeah?

Philip Frankland Lee 10:14 Yeah. So, I mean, there's-

Joe Rogan 10:15 You're saying that like I know.

Philip Frankland Lee 10:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 10:16 I don't know any of this. Listen, (laughs) you, let me into your world (laughs) . I don't know what you're talking about. What's El Bulli?

Philip Frankland Lee 10:22 Uh, so that was Feranadriu. Um, they, uh, they were named best restaurant in the world several years over. Um, it was really the restaurant that, uh, really brought what became known as molecular gastronomy, the, all the food that's, that, y- you know, Jaime would probably look at it and say, "This is... What, what am I looking at? This doesn't look like food. This looks like interesting abstract art." Um, but, you know, they fig- you know, today you have restaurants where, you know, you'll get literally a balloon that's brought out to the table and you eat the, suck the helium out and eat the balloon and that's, you know, one of the courses.

Joe Rogan 11:02 (laughs) Oh, wow. 12 iconic dishes of El Bulli. Mm. So, this is like fancy dining and this is like-

Philip Frankland Lee 11:13 It's beyond fancy dining. It's, it's art.

Joe Rogan 11:14 Someone from Jaime's lineage would look up this and...

Jamie Vernon 11:17 Well, yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 11:18 If, if you asked him, "Is th-, like, what is this?" And you didn't tell him it was... You wouldn't think that was food.

Joe Rogan 11:23 Yeah. Jaime's not into this. I can tell already.

Jamie Vernon 11:26 Is that a sea urchin?

Joe Rogan 11:27 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 11:27 That, that is sea urchin.

Jamie Vernon 11:29 Oh, delicious.

Joe Rogan 11:30 Do you like sea urchin?

Jamie Vernon 11:31 No, I'm forced... I just tried octopus recently.

Philip Frankland Lee 11:33 And?

Jamie Vernon 11:34 Uh, okay.

Joe Rogan 11:35 I feel bad eating octopus 'cause I found out how fucking smart they are.

Jamie Vernon 11:37 I know, that's what I thought. I was like, I'll try it so I can say I tried it but...

Joe Rogan 11:40 They're, but they're, you know, they're fucking-

Philip Frankland Lee 11:43 They're so fucking good though.

Joe Rogan 11:44 They're very good but they are murderers. I mean, they murder everything.

Jamie Vernon 11:46 Yeah, I'd rather have macaroni and cheese instead or...

Joe Rogan 11:50 Oh my God. Macaroni and cheese.

Jamie Vernon 11:52 I'm just saying, I'd, I'd rather have something else.

Joe Rogan 11:54 There is good macaroni and cheese out there by the way. There's some places. I'm trying off the tip of my head. There was a place that had like, uh, a truffle macaroni and cheese with like really good cheese. Goddamn it, what place was that?I'm not gonna get it. Uh, I'm gonna let it go.

Philip Frankland Lee 12:09 My house for Thanksgiving. That's where you get the best mac and cheese.

Joe Rogan 12:12 You make mac and cheese?

Philip Frankland Lee 12:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:13 Yeah? What, what do you do with it?

Philip Frankland Lee 12:15 So, it's, uh, partially my grandma's recipe. Um, so basically I make a, I make a cheese sauce separately with, uh, with Gruyere, sharp cheddar. Um, and then, uh, I'll boil the macaroni, cool it down, and then I'll take a bunch of shredded cheese as well and, uh, kind of layer it, uh, almost like a, almost like you would be layering, like, a lasagna a little bit, and then cover the entire top with, uh, melted cheese as well. And then, kind of the secret to that is, in the cheese sauce, uh, smoked paprika.

Joe Rogan 12:50 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 12:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 12:51 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 12:52 And so when you eat it, it's got a little bit of the, you know, Kraft mac and cheese of, like, the, the, like, the ... What do you use even? Like, the sauciness? Uh, but you have layers and you build it when it's cold, so you have layers of just shredded cheese all through it, so you still have that, that pull of the cheese like a nice pizza.

Joe Rogan 13:10 Mm. So-

Philip Frankland Lee 13:11 And then you have a crispy cheese crust.

Joe Rogan 13:14 Lasagna-like, almost.

Philip Frankland Lee 13:15 It's really good.

Joe Rogan 13:16 Wow. Damn, son.

Philip Frankland Lee 13:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 13:18 You know, I am, uh, addicted to watch... There's so many, um, pages on Instagram now (clears throat) that are just d- They're essentially, like, a one-minute cooking show. Have you ever watched any of those?

Philip Frankland Lee 13:30 Maybe. I'm sure, I'm sure I've flipped through 'em.

Joe Rogan 13:31 It's ... Why do people love looking at people cooking food? 'Cause I fucking love it.

Philip Frankland Lee 13:37 Yeah, um, I think it's gotta be something, like, psychological.

Joe Rogan 13:42 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 13:42 It's gotta be something about, like, watching somebody nourish. Like some- like, creating nourishment, maybe?

Joe Rogan 13:48 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 13:49 In some sort of, like, you know, uh, abstract way that you haven't really ...

Joe Rogan 13:52 It's an art thing, though. It's also, like, there's a beauty to it. There's a creation of, like, um, a delicious meal. Like, you know how good that's gonna taste 'cause you've had something similar. And so you're watching them put together some dish with skill and k- And then all the different elements of it and all the, you know, the knowledge that has to be. Uh, y- you have to, you have to earn the ability to cook a delicious meal.

Philip Frankland Lee 14:19 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 14:19 Like, you have... It's not something very simple. Like, to do it just right, it's, it's a art form.

Philip Frankland Lee 14:27 It is. But it's, it... But like most art forms, it's a craft. And it's a practicable craft.

Joe Rogan 14:31 Mm. Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 14:32 And, but I think back to what you were saying about, um, like, what, why are people attracted to that? I mean, you can go on and watch, you know, people blow dry their hair or apply makeup, and that, you know, is probably attracting some people, but only people who care about, you know, makeup. Where it feels like even people who aren't into food, who aren't, like, you know, you know, self-acclaimed foodies, they still like watching food. And I think it has to be something deeper than just a craft that is interesting to look at.

Joe Rogan 15:03 Yeah. Though that's one of the things that's fascinating about it, is that it is a craft, but it's also, like you said, it's nourishment. I mean, everybody needs food. And it's also ... It looks fucking amazing.

Philip Frankland Lee 15:14 It's one of the only things where the artist, if you call them an artist, or craftsman, have to take enough responsibility and have enough integrity to understand that the art they're creating is going to be ingested by the audience.

Joe Rogan 15:28 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 15:28 Not just hung on the wall or worn.

Joe Rogan 15:30 Right. Yeah, well that ... It took me a while to figure out that it is art. It, it really was Bourdain that showed me, from his first show, from No Reservations. I, I remember watching that show and i- One of the beautiful things about No Reservations, and then also, um, Parts Unknown, was that his narration-

Philip Frankland Lee 15:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:49 ... was all his writing. And it was all so eh, very specific to his writing. In fact, his voice is so specific that ... You know, he got obsessed with jujitsu and started posting on a Reddit jujitsu sub-thread.

Philip Frankland Lee 16:06 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:06 And eventually people figured out that it was him.

Philip Frankland Lee 16:09 Just because of his voice?

Joe Rogan 16:10 I don't know how they figured it out. And it may have been posthumously that they figured it out. But there was this whole article about Bourdain posting on this, this sub-Reddit. Like, real honest about his journey and his battles with jujitsu. But he, he did it in a way that's very similar to the way he does the narration on his show. Which was, uh, one of the more interesting things about the show, because you got an insight into an art where you're, you're ... The practitioner is explaining it, but he's so articulate and passionate and-

Philip Frankland Lee 16:43 Yeah. I do-

Joe Rogan 16:44 Shooting star gotcha. (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 16:46 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 16:46 (laughs) Yeah, I see people like, "Am I tripping?" Yeah, there's shooting stars in the ceiling. But there's this, there's a, an aspect to the way he would describe it. And I remember watching his show going, (snaps fingers) "Oh, it's art."

Philip Frankland Lee 17:00 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:00 I goes like, "Duh." Like, "Why didn't I see it this way before? I just thought, 'Oh, that place is delicious.'"

Philip Frankland Lee 17:04 But there's also an art to, like, changing a tire, or anything. Like, when you, when you see someone who's really good at something, there's an art to it.

Joe Rogan 17:11 Mm. Right, especially if you're into that thing.

Philip Frankland Lee 17:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:15 Yeah. I always talk about that with pool, the game of pool.

Philip Frankland Lee 17:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 17:17 Because most people look at pool as fucking boring. You're just shooting a ball in a hole.

Philip Frankland Lee 17:21 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 17:21 Who cares? But for someone like me who plays, I see someone like Earl Strickland, like a great pool player, I watch him play like, "Goddamn it, that's amazing." It's beautiful.

Philip Frankland Lee 17:30 Yeah, I mean, when somebody can make something look easy but also make it look sexy at the same time.

Joe Rogan 17:34 Mm. Sexy.

Philip Frankland Lee 17:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:36 Yeah. There's a ... It's, it's really cool that we live in a time where the entry barrier to, like, th- expressing yourself in that kind of a way is so, so simple. Like, uh, there's a guy on, uh, Instagram that I was just going back and forth with. He's got a great page. It's, uh, cooking_with_fire. And he makes bomb-ass Mexican food. And he was a chef, and he, uh, he's just basically dedicating all his time now to putting online content out. And he's doing, like, a one-minute cooking show. He just does the whole d- Like, no matter what he makes, he bangs it out.

Philip Frankland Lee 18:17 Yeah, I was gonna say. Cooking with fire seems to be hard to do in one minute.

Joe Rogan 18:19 Well, he does... It's just a really, you know, well edited thing.

Philip Frankland Lee 18:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 18:24 He'll do the, the whole deal from creating the salsa, to cooking the meat, to creating some sort of a sauce to go on it. And every time I watch his, his channel, I wanna fucking eat like a pig. (laughs) So, like, he's e- Like, he's creating all these different things.... these, and then he's, you know, making the... Okay, this is just hot dogs wrapped in bacon.

Jamie Vernon 18:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:47 You picked a terrible one, Jamie.

Jamie Vernon 18:49 No, but, excuse me?

Joe Rogan 18:50 (laughs) Something simple.

Jamie Vernon 18:50 Sounds delicious. (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 18:51 I think Jamie put, picked the one-

Joe Rogan 18:52 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 18:52 ... he wants, uh, us to cook for him today.

Joe Rogan 18:54 (laughs)

Jamie Vernon 18:54 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 18:54 That is exactly what Jamie would watch.

Jamie Vernon 18:56 I don't want to watch him cook shrimp.

Joe Rogan 18:57 Ah. But anyway, it's one of those things on the... That's a little Nomad grill that's a pretty badass cool grill. You could take that sucker around with, like, a suitcase. It's all insulated. But the point is that it's, there's a, the entry barrier to putting out content like that is so, i- it's so minimal now. It's like all you have to do is have a camera and point it at you when you cook and just have some narration.

Philip Frankland Lee 19:24 Yeah, it's something that, um, definitely wasn't there before. But, uh, I don't know. I haven't really gotten that into watching it really myself.

Joe Rogan 19:33 Do you, uh... I mean, obviously, you've worked with some great chefs. Do you like watching people put the food together?

Philip Frankland Lee 19:42 I used to watch, like, food TV religiously. Um, I think, and that was, that was, you know, when I was sort of, like, just up and coming as, like, a young cook, um, when, you know... The thing is, being a chef and being a cook are two entirely different things. Obviously, being a cook is a, is a prerequisite.

Joe Rogan 20:01 What's the difference?

Philip Frankland Lee 20:02 So, if, if, if I was to come over to your house tonight and I was to cook you the best meal you ever had, that would not make me a great chef. That would make me a great cook.

Joe Rogan 20:12 So, you'd cook one thing. Like, maybe a chef means you can cook a bunch of different things.

Philip Frankland Lee 20:16 No. The fact that I did it myself. If I cook you food, I'm cooking. If I brought five or six people over to your house and I got them to work together to make you the best meal you've ever had, that would make me a chef.

Joe Rogan 20:32 Oh.

Philip Frankland Lee 20:32 So, call- calling, uh, saying that like, you know, I, you know, "My wife make, you know, my wife cooks great food, so she's a fantastic chef," isn't correct. It's, it's more like saying that, uh, a conductor of an orchestra, you wouldn't call the conductor a great violinist. Now, the conductor probably needs to not just know how to play the violin, but also, you know, be very good at it.

Joe Rogan 20:55 Oh, okay. So, a chef can cook, but they really coordinate all these people that are cooking together in a restaurant.

Philip Frankland Lee 21:01 It means chief.

Joe Rogan 21:03 But when you have a private chef that people hire to their home to cook for them, and that's an individual, what is that guy? Now a private cook?

Philip Frankland Lee 21:11 Well, you can hire a private chef. That sounds a lot better than a private cook, but what is that per- what is the job function of that person? Well, I guess in that scenario, if you just have a s- 'cause there's some households that have, you know, a team, right? Um, and some households would have a single individual who's cooking. So, you can, you can be the chef who also cooks. Um, it's not to say that if you cook, you are therefore not a chef. It's just that the difference, and we're talking more about in the, you know, in the industry, um, being a chef is to be someone who brings others together to cook as opposed to someone who just cooks.

Joe Rogan 21:45 So, you would call, like, if you were working in a restaurant, like, a steak restaurant, the chef would be the main guy that tells everybody what to do.

Philip Frankland Lee 21:51 That's the person who's typically writing the menu, who's handling all the ordering. That's typically the person who's dealing with the broken dishwasher.

Joe Rogan 21:59 Oh. Well, that's not glamorous.

Philip Frankland Lee 22:01 No.

Joe Rogan 22:01 The fuck is that?

Philip Frankland Lee 22:02 No.

Joe Rogan 22:02 Don't you have a guy that handles (laughs) the dishwasher?

Jamie Vernon 22:04 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 22:04 Well, I guess maybe if you're at a famous steak house, maybe the dish-

Joe Rogan 22:06 Mm-hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 22:06 ... the chef isn't dealing with that, but in a, in a, in a normal, you know, restaurant.

Joe Rogan 22:10 Small restaurant.

Philip Frankland Lee 22:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:11 Yeah. And so, the other people that are working for them that are cooking the meals, you wouldn't consider them chefs as well.

Philip Frankland Lee 22:16 Well, that's why the person who typically runs, like, the line, uh, is called the sous chef, under chef.

Joe Rogan 22:23 Oh, that's what sous means.

Philip Frankland Lee 22:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:25 S-O-U-S?

Philip Frankland Lee 22:25 S-O-U-S.

Joe Rogan 22:26 (clears throat)

Philip Frankland Lee 22:26 So, you have, you have chef de partys, which are basically station cooks, and then they report to a sous chef, who reports to, in some cases, a chef de cuisine, who reports to a chef.

Joe Rogan 22:37 Okay, so sous vide means under water then. Is that what it means?

Philip Frankland Lee 22:40 Under pressure, I think it's, I think vide is pressure.

Joe Rogan 22:43 But-

Philip Frankland Lee 22:43 I could be wrong.

Joe Rogan 22:44 But you're cooking i- in water. Where, what's the pressure? (clears throat)

Philip Frankland Lee 22:47 It doesn't have to be water. So, you can cook-

Joe Rogan 22:49 Oh.

Philip Frankland Lee 22:49 ... sous vide in like, uh, in a, uh, uh, in any sort of... So, what you're doing with sous vide is, is you're creating an anaerobic environment by, uh... What is sous vide?

Joe Rogan 22:58 What is sous vide? Under vacuum.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:00 Under vacuum. Okay.

Joe Rogan 23:00 Okay, so like a vacuum bag.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:02 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 23:02 Right.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:02 So, under pressure.

Joe Rogan 23:03 Oh, okay, right.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:05 Um, and so the idea is, uh, uh, you know, the picture over here on the right is what you would most associate sous vide with, is one of these-

Joe Rogan 23:11 Right.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:11 ... immersion circulators. Um, but you also can take that bag and you can, uh, put it into a steamer, which I guess does have water, but it's not under water.

Joe Rogan 23:21 I've seen people cook sous vide in a Ziploc bag, though.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 23:25 So, what the hell's going on there?

Philip Frankland Lee 23:26 Well, you've taken out... I mean, you didn't use a vacuum machine per se-

Joe Rogan 23:29 Right.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:29 ... but you can do what we call ghetto vac.

Joe Rogan 23:31 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 23:32 And so, if you actually take, let's take, say, take a steak, you put it in a, a Ziploc bag.

Joe Rogan 23:36 Mm-hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:36 If you take a bowl of ice water and you submerge the steak into the ice water, it's going to push and force all of the oxygen out the top, and you slowly, slowly put it in there until you just have the zip at the top, and then you Ziploc and you pull it out, and it's a ghetto vac.

Joe Rogan 23:50 Oh, I see what you're saying.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:51 So.

Joe Rogan 23:51 Okay.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:52 Well-

Joe Rogan 23:53 But I've seen people do it where they just put it in there and whoop, just zip it. None of that ghetto vac-ing.

Philip Frankland Lee 23:58 They probably aren't at a really nice restaurant doing that.

Joe Rogan 24:01 No, they're at home. (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 24:01 Yeah. I mean, yeah, you can do it at home.

Joe Rogan 24:03 But is the results the same?

Philip Frankland Lee 24:05 So, the, the less, the less of an environment that is there, the more accurate you're gonna have the cook.

Joe Rogan 24:10 Hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 24:11 So, if you have a bunch of oxygen in that bag, then that oxygen is going to, to react at a different temperature than, uh, or a different rate than if there's no oxygen.

Joe Rogan 24:20 Now, when you first started cooking, did you go to culinary school? Did you, were you cooking actively before you went to culinary school?

Philip Frankland Lee 24:27 Yeah, so I went to culinary school. I had been cooking for years. Um, and I only went for a few months and I dropped out.

Joe Rogan 24:33 Really?

Philip Frankland Lee 24:33 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 24:35 Look at that, kids.

Philip Frankland Lee 24:36 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:36 You can drop out of culinary school and get two Michelin stars. (laughs)

Jamie Vernon 24:39 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:39 Why did you drop out?

Philip Frankland Lee 24:41 I thought I was going to, like, university of food.You know, I, I, I enrolled because I wanted to learn why. I wanted to learn and everything I knew up until that point in my career was just what the guy next to me had taught me, and that was because he was like, "All right, once you get here, okay, turn that. Okay, you see what you're looking..." And that, that, that's it. "Just do this." As a line cook, you, you spend most of your time just doing what you're told, and so I thought, "Okay, I..." At this point, this is what I knew what I wanted to do, and so I thought to myself that I'm gonna go to school and really learn about this. And then I got there, and it was cooking class, and I, I had no, no, uh, desire to, to take cooking classes.

Joe Rogan 25:29 Well, what do you mean by cooking class? It was just s- step by step basics?

Philip Frankland Lee 25:33 Yeah, I'm, I'm-

Joe Rogan 25:33 They're teaching you the alphabet, essentially?

Philip Frankland Lee 25:35 Kind of. It was... I mean, it wasn't even that, that it was the alphabet. It was... Well, there was a couple of, of, of reasons that I quit. Um, one was actually, we talked about The French Laundry, I had the opportunity while I was in culinary school, one of my, uh, chefs, um, had invited me to go with, with him and another group of chefs to the, uh, The French Laundry. And I went to my teacher, uh, and said, "Hey, uh, I need a couple days off. I have been invited." And they had this really strict rule of if you miss two, uh, two classes in any, uh, semester or whatever, you fail the class. And this was like, um, a breakfast egg cookery class, uh, and I said, "Well, I used to work at a restaurant called BLD in Los Angeles and, um, I worked both the plancha and sometimes I worked the egg station and we did 400 cover brunches, um, I could like, I know that we're gonna boil one egg at a time next week, uh, but like, can I... You know, this is a fantastic opportunity for me as a young cook to go and have dinner with these chefs at The French Laundry." And they said, "Sorry, you know, if, if you're not here for this then you, you're gonna fail." And I said, "Well then fuck that. I should be getting extra credit."

Joe Rogan 26:49 Yeah, it seems like that would be w- a wiser choice, to give you credit, not-

Philip Frankland Lee 26:53 Yeah, I-

Joe Rogan 26:53 ... fail you.

Philip Frankland Lee 26:54 And, and I also said, "Well, I'll, look, I'll take the f- the, the final quiz for this class now," which is, you know, I have to make the dish, I already spent over a year working four undercover brunches at a really nice restaurant. I, like, you're... I'm not gonna learn that much more than what I've already done in real life. I've already left that part of my career to go on, you know, to the bigger and better restaurants.

Joe Rogan 27:17 So, did you feel like the system was just too rigid or it's just the way they were c- teaching it?

Philip Frankland Lee 27:21 Well, they ended up getting a huge class action lawsuit against them later on and they had to give everyone their tuition money back, I think.

Joe Rogan 27:28 Why?

Philip Frankland Lee 27:31 I didn't follow it. I also didn't join the class action lawsuit, but, um, I think it was something about over-promising and under-delivering.

Joe Rogan 27:39 Hmm. Okay. Well, is it safe to say that all culinary schools are not created equal?

Philip Frankland Lee 27:45 Oh, a hundred percent.

Joe Rogan 27:46 So, if you went to another one, maybe-

Philip Frankland Lee 27:47 Yeah, I, I, I don't think culinary school's not worth it, I just think that, um, like if, like if you were to come to me, you know, 30, 40 years ago and said, "I wanna be a cook," I would say, uh, "Don't go to culinary school, 'cause if you go to culinary school, you come out with debt, and if you come out of culinary school and we hire you at one of our restaurants, we're gonna end up saying to you, 'Great. Everything you just learned? Okay, don't do any of that, 'cause now we want you to do it exactly how we do it, and we're gonna show you how we do it.' You're also gonna start out at the bottom of the totem pole. So, you're gonna start out, you're gonna be, you know, peeling onions."

Joe Rogan 28:26 So, cooking, is it safe to say or fair to say that it's essentially, it's a craft that is best learned on the job?

Philip Frankland Lee 28:34 Yeah, I mean, think about like, you've been around, like, tattoo shops enough.

Joe Rogan 28:38 Sure.

Philip Frankland Lee 28:39 You know what they, what like, the apprentices go through to be able to tattoo there?

Joe Rogan 28:42 Yeah, they tattoo on their own legs and shit. (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 28:45 (laughs) Um-

Joe Rogan 28:45 Or they get their friends.

Philip Frankland Lee 28:47 The thing is you-

Joe Rogan 28:48 Or pig ears.

Philip Frankland Lee 28:48 ... you could imagine if, if, if they went to school to learn how to tattoo-

Joe Rogan 28:53 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 28:53 ... and then went to the tattoo shop, they'd still have to go through that hazing. They'd still have to go... Not that there's hazing in the kitchen, but you still have to sort of earn your stripes.

Joe Rogan 29:01 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 29:01 You don't-

Joe Rogan 29:01 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 29:01 And one of the things was, when I enrolled in culinary school, they had said, "When you graduate, you will be eligible to be a chef de cuisine. You'll start around $75,000 a year," and I think that's where they got in trouble. I could be wrong, but, um-

Joe Rogan 29:16 Hmm. Oh, I see.

Philip Frankland Lee 29:17 ... when you get outta culinary school, you're gonna work either for free, well, you can't do that anymore, um, but you used to have to work for free, uh, or you're just gonna come in at the minimum, minimum wage because yes, you have a degree from culinary school, but that doesn't mean that you're gonna know anything that we need for this restaurant.

Joe Rogan 29:36 Interesting. So, when did you start and what, what did you do when your, with your first job?

Philip Frankland Lee 29:43 Um, so my, so I started... Well, I actually feel like I should answer the very first question you asked me, which is when did I know I wanted to cook?

Joe Rogan 29:49 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 29:49 'Cause that kind of gets us there. Um, so I guess my dad knew before I knew, 'cause, uh, he just recently, uh, sent me a video. It's actually on my Instagram, um, it's, uh, my third birthday party and he's bought me a chef's knife.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Wow.

Philip Frankland Lee 30:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:08 Your third birthday party?

Philip Frankland Lee 30:09 My third birthday party. And he can, you can clearly hear him say, (laughs) it's funny 'cause I think, I haven't gotten the full story, but I think my mom's holding the old, you know, the old camera and it kind of shaking, and I guess he says, oh-

Joe Rogan 30:22 There it is right there.

Philip Frankland Lee 30:23 I think he, he says, "I don't know what else to get him. All he wants to do is cook."

Jamie Vernon 30:26 Oh. Yeah, you know what? He always wants to cook. So there you go.

Joe Rogan 30:29 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 30:30 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 30:31 That's not a real knife, is it? Did he give you, get you a real chef's knife?

Philip Frankland Lee 30:35 I actually haven't asked him 'cause he sent that to me and he said, "Look, you've always wanted to cook." Um, so I don't know if that's a, uh, I prob- but knowing my dad, yeah, it's probably a real knife.

Joe Rogan 30:45 And did he just hide it from you? "Here's your, here's your knife and then I'm gonna hide it."

Philip Frankland Lee 30:48 No, I, I cooked growing up every day.

Joe Rogan 30:49 But did you use that knife?

Philip Frankland Lee 30:51 I don't remember.

Joe Rogan 30:52 When you were three?

Philip Frankland Lee 30:53 Yeah, probably not, probably wasn't.

Joe Rogan 30:55 Yeah. That seems like a lot for a three-year-old, those little tiny fingers.

Philip Frankland Lee 30:58 (exhales) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 30:59 Let me see your fingers. They're all there-

Philip Frankland Lee 31:00 They're all there but-

Joe Rogan 31:00 ... so you probably didn't use it.

Philip Frankland Lee 31:01 ... but I'm missing, uh, you know, some parts.

Joe Rogan 31:02 Are you?

Philip Frankland Lee 31:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:03 Some tips?

Philip Frankland Lee 31:04 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:04 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 31:05 But, um, no, so-

Joe Rogan 31:06 So right away-

Philip Frankland Lee 31:07 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:07 ... you always wanted to cook.

Philip Frankland Lee 31:08 Apparently, I did. I don't really re- I don't remember that, but I do remember, um, being ... I'm the oldest of, uh, five and, uh, growing up, um, my dad cooked every single night at home and, uh, he never wanted to go out. So, my parents divorced when I was very young and, uh, when we were at dad's house, he cooked and, uh, each of us had a responsibility. You know? One of my sisters would set the table, the other one would clear the table, my brother would do the dishes, whatever that it was. Um, I was the only one who could see above the counter at a certain point and, uh, so I was always the one who would help cook.

Joe Rogan 31:42 Hmm. Interesting. That's the days before phones 'cause now you'd be like, "Kids get off your phones and help daddy."

Philip Frankland Lee 31:47 (laughs) Yeah, probably.

Joe Rogan 31:48 You'd be like, "Ugh, just let me finish my TikTok."

Philip Frankland Lee 31:50 No, but apparently, I would stop playing video games to come cook.

Joe Rogan 31:54 Oh.

Philip Frankland Lee 31:54 Yeah. No, I, I, I loved it and, um, I cooked all the way ... You know, I ... That's how I started, you know, when I was younger and I wanted to, you know, take girls out, it was a lot less expensive if you go to the store and you buy stuff and you cook at home.

Joe Rogan 32:08 Plus it's kind of romantic and impressive. Like, "Wow, Phillip cooks. Oh."

Philip Frankland Lee 32:11 Yeah, and you, you already finished, you know ... You finished dinner and you're at home.

Joe Rogan 32:16 Yeah. It's very cool.

Philip Frankland Lee 32:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 32:17 Um, when you ... That ... When you have something that you really love to do, like really early on, what an advantage that is, because that's one of the things that troubles people the most when they're young. It's like, "What do I want to do with my life?" You know? When you find a thing that you're passionate about early, God, it's such a huge advantage.

Philip Frankland Lee 32:38 Yeah, there ... It's really interesting looking back 'cause there's really only three things that I'm ... Like, that I excel at. Uh, cooking, uh, playing the drums, and my dad bought me ... Or my dad, my, my parents got me a drum set f- when I was 18 months old. Uh, and, uh, poker. I learned ... My grandmother taught me how to, uh, count using cards.

Joe Rogan 33:02 Really?

Philip Frankland Lee 33:02 So the ... And those are, to today, those are the three things that I have excelled at in my life.

Joe Rogan 33:06 So, do you make money playing poker?

Philip Frankland Lee 33:09 Not, like, professionally, but I, I have, I have won money.

Joe Rogan 33:12 So do you, like, when you go to Vegas do you get, like, real serious and take, like, nootropics-

Philip Frankland Lee 33:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:16 ... and fucking sit down and-

Philip Frankland Lee 33:18 I-

Joe Rogan 33:18 ... calm your mind?

Philip Frankland Lee 33:20 I took tournament poker serious for a long time. Uh, but that's something I g- would go to Vegas for 'cause in LA we've got fantastic tournament poker there.

Joe Rogan 33:28 Mm-hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 33:29 But I, you know, I would study and I would listen to podcasts and I would, you know, review hands and things like that.

Joe Rogan 33:35 Yeah, my friend Ari, Ari Shaffir, when he was, um, coming up in LA, he was making most of his money playing poker.

Philip Frankland Lee 33:44 It's a fantastic discipline that, that creates a very difficult, uh ... How do you explain it? It's, uh ... Well, I'm sure he's explained it to you. It's, uh-

Joe Rogan 33:55 I don't listen to him on the interview.

Philip Frankland Lee 33:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 33:58 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 33:59 Um, it's a very difficult life. I tried playing professionally, um, when I was 18. Uh, there were Indian casinos you could play at and I would, I would go there and spend, you know, four or five days and I'd play for three days straight.

Joe Rogan 34:14 Really?

Philip Frankland Lee 34:14 Um, yeah.

Joe Rogan 34:15 Get a room there and just crash?

Philip Frankland Lee 34:17 Yeah, they'll give you, they'll give you a room.

Joe Rogan 34:18 Wow.

Philip Frankland Lee 34:19 Um, and then, uh, I started ... One day I woke up and I was like, you know, I was playing for a lot ... I was playing for a lot of money at, at the time, for being 18 years old, um, and, you know, I'd sit down with a couple thousand in front of me and then I would, you know, question whether or not I wanted to add extra cheese at my Taco Bell order 'cause it was 27 cents. And it was like ... The, the world just became so skewed to me that I was like, "Okay, I need to stop."

Joe Rogan 34:46 Because you were looking at money so fucked up because you were making so money, so much money and playing for so much money when you were playing poker?

Philip Frankland Lee 34:53 Yeah, it wasn't even that I was making it 'cause I was, you know ... It was that I was playing with the money. And so, you start looking at, at the world in terms of big blinds and, uh-

Joe Rogan 35:03 Big blinds?

Philip Frankland Lee 35:04 Big bli- So when you're playing Hold 'Em, you have, uh, to the left of the dealer button you have a small blind and then to the left of him you have a big blind, which is a, which is your, basically your minimum bet. And so, if you're playing a, like a two/five game, and that's what I was playing back then-

Joe Rogan 35:16 What's that mean?

Philip Frankland Lee 35:17 Two dollar, five dollar. So, $5 is the minimum bet to, to, to, to join the hand, um, and so it's forced action to the left of the dealer button. You're required to put $2 in if you are, uh, the small blind, and you're required to put $5 in just to start the action. So, then you look at your cards and if you're not in one of the blinds, you can fold for free.

Joe Rogan 35:39 Wow.

Philip Frankland Lee 35:39 Or you can raise more money or you can put in $5 just to stay. And, um, when you start looking at the world in terms of big blinds, it's, uh, time to either make that the only thing you do forever (laughs) or, or do something else.

Joe Rogan 35:53 And were you thinking about only playing poker at one point in time?

Philip Frankland Lee 35:58 Yeah, I was. Um, and, uh, I was doi- I had a really good job while I was playing cards. Um, I was actually selling mortgages. So-

Joe Rogan 36:08 No kidding.

Philip Frankland Lee 36:09 Yeah. So I was one of those guys that was selling the, you know, the, uh, stated income mortgages.

Joe Rogan 36:17 So you're selling mortgages, playing poker, but you really wanted to be a chef.

Philip Frankland Lee 36:22 Yeah. Well, I wasn't 100% sure yet that I wanted to be a chef. So when I, so when I was 15, I think is when I dropped outta high school, and, um, I did that 'cause the band I was playing with was starting to take off and I spent the next several years touring. And, um, I would ... You know, we'd be on tour and, and, and-

Joe Rogan 36:44 You were on tour when you were 15?

Philip Frankland Lee 36:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 36:47 ... that's divorced parents right there.

Philip Frankland Lee 36:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 36:49 Dad's like, "Go ahead, fuck it."

Philip Frankland Lee 36:51 Well, m- my, my-

Joe Rogan 36:51 "Live your life."

Philip Frankland Lee 36:52 My-

Joe Rogan 36:52 "Don't make the mistakes Dad made."

Philip Frankland Lee 36:54 Well-

Joe Rogan 36:54 "Get out there."

Philip Frankland Lee 36:55 Those are the things Dad did too, so...

Joe Rogan 36:56 Oh, Jesus. (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 36:57 Yeah. Um, so, uh-

Joe Rogan 37:00 What'd your par- what'd your parents think when you said you were gonna go on tour at 15?

Philip Frankland Lee 37:04 Well, the band played in, in, in my dad's studio. My dad was a record producer.

Joe Rogan 37:10 Oh.

Philip Frankland Lee 37:11 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 37:11 That makes more sense.

Philip Frankland Lee 37:12 Yeah. Um, so I, uh, we would, we would play, you know, locally back then, and, um, then we'd start doing like weekend tours, and then when it was time to like, "Okay, I'm gonna stop going to school," the only deal I had to make was that whenever I wasn't on tour, I had to have a job. I couldn't just like sleep in all day. So, uh, there was a Jamba Juice right by our house and-

Joe Rogan 37:38 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 37:39 ... got a job there.

Joe Rogan 37:41 Wow. And what, what led you to not keep pursuing the music?

Philip Frankland Lee 37:48 At a certain point ... So, so while I was playing cards, or sorry, while I was playing music actually, I, I turned the studio certain nights a week into a little poker room. So I'd have, like, friends over and we'd play cards at the house. Um, but, uh, while I was, uh, uh, touring, uh, I eventually decided, 'cause when I, when I decided to stop going to school, I said to myself, "If the music thing doesn't work, I'm gonna go to sushi school." So, uh, the music thing did work, and, uh, a couple years went by, and, um, actually my godmother owned a, uh, catering company, and so, uh, in between tours, I didn't really wanna keep working at like Jamba Juice or Starbucks or anything like that, and so I, uh, asked her if I could work for her. And so I invited over to her, her over to the house, I cooked dinner for her and she said, "Well, I'll introduce you to my chef, and if my chef wants to hire you, then you'll be hired." And so I went to, uh, to

Philip Frankland Lee 38:48 her, um, catering company, met the chef, uh, the first thing was like, "Okay, you're making family meal today." And so I cooked for the whole staff and she said, "I'll hire you as a dishwasher."

Joe Rogan 39:00 (laughs) oh, Jesus.

Philip Frankland Lee 39:04 Uh, and, um-

Joe Rogan 39:04 Was that because that was the only job they had available?

Philip Frankland Lee 39:08 Looking back at it, I was offended and angry, but I didn't care because of what she said after that, which is, um, "You don't get to start being a cook. You have to start as a dishwasher so you can have respect for, um, you know, what it is that the dishwashers do." And, um, she said, "Here's how this works. The faster you clean that dish pit, the more I'll teach you. So whenever that dish pit's clean, you come and find me and I'll give you a task. But if there's ever any dishes, that's what you're doing."

Joe Rogan 39:41 Hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 39:42 So, it kind of gave me that, that bit of work ethic of like, "All right, I'm gonna work my way into the ne- that next position."

Joe Rogan 39:48 That seems to be a theme with great restaurants, and when you talk to chefs, this work ethic theme, because it seems like when y- you know, you talk to people that have worked in restaurants, one of the things that they will almost unanimously discuss is the amount of hours, and the grind, and how difficult it is.

Philip Frankland Lee 40:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 40:09 And that development of work ethic almost is like kind of a boot camp for chefs.

Philip Frankland Lee 40:15 It is. It's, um, I mean, it's not so much anymore. Laws have changed, culture has changed, but it was, you're spending, like a 16 hour day was not even a really long day.

Joe Rogan 40:32 I dated a girl once who went to college for restaurant and hotel management, and then she got a job at this restaurant, and I remember I would go visit her and she was fucking miserable.

Philip Frankland Lee 40:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 40:48 I mean, miserable. She couldn't believe the hours that she had to work.

Philip Frankland Lee 40:51 But you have to love it.

Joe Rogan 40:52 Yeah, she didn't love it.

Philip Frankland Lee 40:52 That's an industry you have to love.

Joe Rogan 40:54 Well, she just wanted a career, you know? She had went to school, she graduated from school, and then she had this c- this job that was like... And then she had this boyfriend who was a fuck up, who was a comedian, so it was like very, very weird for her, because like I had most of my day completely free (laughs) , and she was working, you know, 14, 15 hours a day at least.

Philip Frankland Lee 41:18 Yeah. I mean, it's, it's one of those things where if you really want to take food seriously and cooking seriously, you're gonna have to, you know, make a lot of sacrifices.

Joe Rogan 41:29 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 41:29 You know, I've, I've-

Joe Rogan 41:30 Just the time.

Philip Frankland Lee 41:31 Mm-hmm. You're not there for birthdays, you're not there for anniversaries, you're not there for, for, for, uh, Valentine's Day for sure.

Joe Rogan 41:37 'Cause you have to work.

Philip Frankland Lee 41:38 'Cause you have to work.

Joe Rogan 41:39 It's a big day.

Philip Frankland Lee 41:39 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 41:39 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 41:40 'Cause someone has to cook at all those restaurants you go to.

Joe Rogan 41:42 Yeah. Yeah, people listening, if you are thinking of going down this path-

Philip Frankland Lee 41:49 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 41:49 ... prepare yourself.

Philip Frankland Lee 41:50 Look, it's, yeah, it's a fantastic path, but you have to understand what it's like. And I think the reason it worked for me, or the reason I loved it so much, is it really felt like being on tour, except I got to sleep in my own bed.

Joe Rogan 42:03 How so?

Philip Frankland Lee 42:04 It re- well, be, like playing music, you spend all day getting ready for sh- the show that night, um, and there's something to getting to the restaurant and prepping all day, getting ready for the show that night. Um, and so I feel like the comradery of being on a, like being in a crew is much, is a lot like being in a band. Um, the hours are a lot like being in a band. Um, and then the shenanigans, you know, after hours are a lot like being in a band.

Joe Rogan 42:34 The boozing-

Philip Frankland Lee 42:35 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 42:35 ... is that what you're talking about? Yeah. That's the other thing that I learned from Bru- Bourdain. I didn't know how hard people partied.

Philip Frankland Lee 42:42 Yeah, I mean, when I was younger, there was a lot of nights you just don't go to sleep. You just get out of the restaurant at 1:30 in the morning, you go to the bar, then you go somewhere else, then you go back and open the restaurant the next day.

Joe Rogan 42:54 That doesn't seem good for you.

Philip Frankland Lee 42:56 No, it's terrible.

Joe Rogan 42:56 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 42:57 I had, I had to, um, and I-

Joe Rogan 42:59 And that's where the Red Bull comes in?

Philip Frankland Lee 43:00 Well, no, I, I quit Red Bull earlier than that but, um, uh, thankfully, I never, I never got into drugs so it wasn't that. But I, I would drink a lot and, um, I actually had one time, uh, uh, where I finished service, took two steps and just collapsed, just hit the ground.

Joe Rogan 43:16 Whoa.

Philip Frankland Lee 43:17 Yeah. I had-

Joe Rogan 43:17 At the end of the day?

Philip Frankland Lee 43:18 At the end of the day. It was-

Joe Rogan 43:19 So, had you pulled an all-nighter?

Philip Frankland Lee 43:20 I think two or three days in a row, yeah.

Joe Rogan 43:22 Oh, Jesus.

Philip Frankland Lee 43:22 But I was like, 21.

Joe Rogan 43:25 Two or three days of no sleep?

Philip Frankland Lee 43:27 At 21.

Joe Rogan 43:28 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 43:29 Maybe like, an hour and a half sleep here and there.

Joe Rogan 43:32 Jesus.

Philip Frankland Lee 43:33 But, um, yeah, I mean when I, I, I, my first sous chef job, I was on the, uh, schedule. It said, next to my name, all seven days it said, "OP-CL." Open to close.

Joe Rogan 43:46 Whoa.

Philip Frankland Lee 43:46 We did breakfast and we did dinner service. So, I would open the restaurant at about 7:00 AM and I would leave around 1:30, 2:00.

Joe Rogan 43:55 So, when you open the restaurant at 7:00 AM, what time are you actually arriving?

Philip Frankland Lee 43:59 Uh, man this was like, this was a long time ago but I, I probably was getting there, I was probably getting there around 7:00, 6:45, 7:00. When I say open, I mean I would get to the restaurant and open the door, not that we were, like, open in public.

Joe Rogan 44:11 So, there was someone there that was already prepping?

Philip Frankland Lee 44:14 Yeah, I'm trying to remember 'cause we were at this, um, in this sort of like, uh, the restaurant was a lunch and dinner restaurant but we served breakfast and as like, a commissary to like, there was like, it was like, in a building complex.

Joe Rogan 44:28 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 44:28 Um, so I really wasn't responsible for breakfast, um, so there would be... I think there was people there before I would get there.

Joe Rogan 44:34 A building, like an office building complex is that what you mean?

Philip Frankland Lee 44:36 Yeah, yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:36 So, they would just grab something quick?

Philip Frankland Lee 44:38 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 44:39 That kinda deal?

Philip Frankland Lee 44:39 Yeah, like, so I would get in there and the dishwasher would already like, he'd be, be making like, ham and cheese sandwiches or something like that.

Joe Rogan 44:45 Mm-hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 44:46 But, um-

Joe Rogan 44:46 And so you were there from 7:00 AM and then what time would you get out of there?

Philip Frankland Lee 44:50 Usually, I mean, uh, probably 1:00, 1:30.

Joe Rogan 44:55 And nowadays, with labor laws, you really couldn't schedule that, right?

Philip Frankland Lee 44:59 Well, I was on, I was on salary.

Joe Rogan 45:01 Oh, interesting.

Philip Frankland Lee 45:03 But that salary would have to be, you know, 3X at this point.

Joe Rogan 45:07 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 45:07 'Cause you, 'cause now they've changed the rule a couple years ago. Salary is no longer a, uh, a contract between you and I. Salaries have to fall into a certain, you have to qualify. So, you can't just be like, "Oh, I'm gonna not give you overtime by giving you a salary to have you work when I ask you to."

Joe Rogan 45:24 Right.

Philip Frankland Lee 45:25 Now, you have to pay them, pay everybody a specific dollar amount and they have to ha- hold specific responsibilities in order to not, uh, accrue overtime.

Joe Rogan 45:34 Yeah, I think that's good because I think there's a lot of employers that are abusive. But I also think there's something romantic about this story of you almost dying. (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 45:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:47 You know what I mean? I mean like, I do appreciate like, long, hard-

Philip Frankland Lee 45:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 45:52 ... workdays. There's something to that 'cause like, I hear that, and I know you got through it and you became very successful, so I'm like, "See, it works."

Philip Frankland Lee 45:59 Look, when, I think Margherita and my first date was at that restaurant.

Joe Rogan 46:03 Ah.

Philip Frankland Lee 46:03 And it was, uh, I mean, people ask me all the time, "How did, how did you get her?" And it's food. It has to be. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 46:13 (laughs) That's hilarious.

Philip Frankland Lee 46:14 Um-

Joe Rogan 46:14 Well, you're a cool guy. Don't sell yourself short. And plus, you're kinda cute.

Philip Frankland Lee 46:17 Oh, appreciate it.

Joe Rogan 46:18 Don't you think, Jamie? (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 46:21 (laughs) I'm top three in this room, for sure. Um-

Joe Rogan 46:25 Top three? Uh, I'd say so.

Philip Frankland Lee 46:27 Um, but, uh, so because of that schedule, I couldn't take her on a date.

Joe Rogan 46:32 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 46:33 Um, and so I remember the very first date we had was at the restaurant. I told her to show up at 12:30 after I, I sent everybody home. And, uh, I had spent all day secretly prepping a special menu and she showed up and I sat her in the dining room that like, overlooked the kitchen, and I would make a course, bring it out to her, sit down with her, have a sip of wine and then, uh, uh, go back in the kitchen, make the next course.

Joe Rogan 47:00 Oh, wow.

Philip Frankland Lee 47:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:01 What did you think she did during the time while you were in there cooking?

Philip Frankland Lee 47:04 Uh, well, I told her to bring a friend with her.

Joe Rogan 47:06 Oh.

Philip Frankland Lee 47:06 'Cause I told, I told her that I'm gonna, you know-

Joe Rogan 47:08 (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 47:08 ... otherwise she's there for 20 minutes in between each course.

Joe Rogan 47:11 That's, uh, well, listen man, that's a clever move.

Philip Frankland Lee 47:14 Look, it worked.

Joe Rogan 47:14 Yeah, clearly. Yeah. That's a, that's interesting. I mean, I would imagine that that's probably one of the most difficult occupations to date in.

Philip Frankland Lee 47:23 Yeah. Um, I, I sacrificed a lot of, um, uh, relationships prior to that one.

Joe Rogan 47:32 Yeah, I can only imagine. It's, in that way, it's very similar to standup comedy. Not in the work ethic part 'cause comedians are notoriously terrible at that.

Philip Frankland Lee 47:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:41 But the, um, it's hard because you know, you date a girl and they want a normal evening life and you're like, "I gotta go do a set." And you know, I had relationships where they're like, "You don't have to." And there was like, the record skipping in the room like, eh, "Yes, I do."

Philip Frankland Lee 47:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 47:57 "Yes, I do." Like, let's, you, you, 'cause I have friends who've had relationships where the, the girl said, "You don't have to," and they listened and I saw what happened. They eventually fell off the radar and then vanished and stopped being a comic, and then they would come to the comedy club, you know, like, seven years removed like-

Philip Frankland Lee 48:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 48:17 ... "Hey, I'm thinking about getting back into it." And, and everybody'd look at you like you said, "I have AIDS."

Philip Frankland Lee 48:22 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 48:22 (laughs) Like, they just backed away from you like, not, not even AIDS 'cause AIDS is not like, but it's like, "I have COVID."

Philip Frankland Lee 48:28 Sure.

Joe Rogan 48:28 Like, like I'm right now filled with bugs that I could spread on you. Like, we wanted to run away from them. We didn't, whatever they had, maybe it's contagious. Like, you quit. You quit the greatest fucking job on earth and now you want to get back in? Just get back in. Don't tell us you're thinking about getting back in. Fucking get back in.

Philip Frankland Lee 48:47 Well, I think it has to do with, with communication. And I think that's what a good relationship is built on. And when we started our relationship, it was very, like, I was like, "This is what I'm doing."

Joe Rogan 48:58 ... yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 48:58 And her, uh, you know, at that time in her life, she's like, "This is what I'm doing." And we made a, we made an agreement that, uh, our careers would always come first. And, uh, you know, luckily our careers, you know, overlapped. Um, and for the last 13 years we've worked together.

Joe Rogan 49:17 That's awesome.

Philip Frankland Lee 49:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 49:18 That's very cool. And it's very cool that it works and you guys still get along so great even though you're in this, like, highly stressful, like, very strenuous sort of an environment.

Philip Frankland Lee 49:30 Well, I think it, again, it's because we've, we, we have boundaries and we have rules for like, this is, this is where ... So, like, if we're sitting at home having dinner or if we're at a restaurant, uh, you know, for her birthday and there's a call from one of our restaurants or we have some- Like, that always comes first. And so, there's never been a, there's never really been an issue where it's like, jealousy because one of us has to do what we have to do, 'cause it's, that's what we do.

Joe Rogan 49:57 How hard is it for you to go to restaurants? 'Cause how judge-

Philip Frankland Lee 50:00 Really easy.

Joe Rogan 50:01 Are you judgy?

Philip Frankland Lee 50:01 No.

Joe Rogan 50:01 That's what I mean.

Philip Frankland Lee 50:02 No.

Joe Rogan 50:03 You're not?

Philip Frankland Lee 50:03 No. Um, I, I, I can apprec- Not I can't. I appreciate food. I love food. Food's like my favorite thing. That's why I got into this. Um, but I do think that there are times, uh, when I eat something, and it really comes down to only one time and it's, it's value. Is, you know, is what I'm eating worth what I'm paying for it?

Joe Rogan 50:27 Mm. Interesting.

Philip Frankland Lee 50:27 Um, because here's the thing. If I go and spend $500 on dinner, uh, it should be at a certain level.

Joe Rogan 50:34 Right.

Philip Frankland Lee 50:34 You're asking to be, not judged, but you're asking to be held to a standard, right?

Joe Rogan 50:40 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 50:41 If we're, you know, if we're at, you know, Jamie takes us some spot to go get some, you know, bacon-wrapped hotdogs, I can just appreciate it. It's not supposed to be life-changing.

Joe Rogan 50:51 Right, right, right. No. Yeah. I mean, that was always the case with like, like street food, right? Like, street food is delicious, but it's, it's unpretentious.

Philip Frankland Lee 51:03 Food doesn't have to be pretentious.

Joe Rogan 51:04 Right.

Philip Frankland Lee 51:04 I mean, look, I, one of my favorite things to make is a cheeseburger.

Joe Rogan 51:07 Yeah. No, I know. Yeah. I, I need to try your cheeseburgers.

Philip Frankland Lee 51:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:11 I've, I've heard l- legendary status from the people at Vulcan-

Philip Frankland Lee 51:15 They're good.

Joe Rogan 51:16 ... when you set up out there.

Philip Frankland Lee 51:17 Yeah, they're good.

Joe Rogan 51:18 Yeah. Well, that's the ... What happ- How did that happen? How did, like, the smash burger thing come into prominence? Because all of a sudden, with, I'm, in my view-

Philip Frankland Lee 51:27 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 51:28 ... within the last, like, five or six years, like, smash burgers became a thing.

Philip Frankland Lee 51:34 I'll be honest, I wasn't really paying attention.

Joe Rogan 51:37 But all of a sudden?

Philip Frankland Lee 51:38 Yeah. Um, I mean, it's really good. I mean, if you look at In-N-Out, right?

Joe Rogan 51:42 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 51:43 They're essentially making a smash burger. They're not physically smashing the burger, uh, but they're making a really, really thin patty.

Joe Rogan 51:52 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 51:52 Right? So, the only difference, like if you're gonna ask me, "What's the difference between a, a In-N-Out burger and a smash burger?" And it, In-N-Out burger starts as a thin patty, and a smash burger ends up as a thin patty.

Joe Rogan 52:01 A smash burger starts as a ball, and then it's smashed.

Philip Frankland Lee 52:03 Which you physically smash.

Joe Rogan 52:04 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 52:05 Um, but I think just that style of, like, backyard pool party, barbecue California, um, I mean, that's ... Like, the burgers that, that, that we make right now, uh, for these smash burgers, it just, I'm trying to make like, a backyard dad burger.

Joe Rogan 52:22 Mm.

Philip Frankland Lee 52:23 They're delicious.

Joe Rogan 52:24 Yeah. No, I've heard. Um, you know, you're the one who turned me on to Golden Tiger-

Philip Frankland Lee 52:28 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 52:28 ... which is, uh, one of my favorite spots in Austin.

Philip Frankland Lee 52:31 It was one of the first spots that we found when we got here, um, that was open late and fucking good.

Joe Rogan 52:38 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 52:38 And, um, w- I started eating it like, four nights a week. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 52:43 That's not good. (laughs)

Philip Frankland Lee 52:44 It's not good. It's not good at all. Um, but, uh, but I did. And, um, it was one of those things that like, I was telling everyone I could 'cause it was that good.

Joe Rogan 52:53 One of the things that che- It's cool being friends with chefs is they know the spots. Like, what other good late night spots are there in Austin?

Philip Frankland Lee 53:02 Um, so our go-to late nights would be, uh, Golden Tiger for sure. Um, we go to a place called Halal Time. Have you been there yet?

Joe Rogan 53:11 No.

Philip Frankland Lee 53:12 It's on Sixth Street, um, East Sixth. It is like, gotta be one of the best euros ever.

Joe Rogan 53:21 Really?

Philip Frankland Lee 53:21 It's so fucking good.

Joe Rogan 53:22 Really?

Philip Frankland Lee 53:23 Yeah. Um, I'm trying to think what else we would do late night.

Joe Rogan 53:28 What about pizza? What's the best pizza spot in this town?

Philip Frankland Lee 53:33 I'm torn between two. Uh, Love Supreme, which if you haven't been to, you have to go.

Joe Rogan 53:38 I have not been to.

Philip Frankland Lee 53:39 Very, very good. Uh, and Doughboys.

Joe Rogan 53:42 Doughboys?

Philip Frankland Lee 53:42 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:43 And Love Supreme?

Philip Frankland Lee 53:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 53:44 Love Supreme sounds better.

Philip Frankland Lee 53:46 They're different. They're different styles, but they're both really, really good.

Joe Rogan 53:49 What kind of, what is Love Supreme?

Philip Frankland Lee 53:52 Um, I don't even know how to describe the styles. Um, so, uh, Love Supreme is a little bit more like ... Are you doing this?

Joe Rogan 54:06 Here it is.

Philip Frankland Lee 54:07 Are you pulling it up?

Joe Rogan 54:08 Ooh, boy. That looks fucking good.

Philip Frankland Lee 54:11 Yeah, Love Supreme is like, uh, it's, it's more of a restaurant. It's like, a great family style place that you would go with the kids and have like, just a really good, like, restaurant pizza. Doughboys is a little truck.

Joe Rogan 54:23 I'm writing this down.

Philip Frankland Lee 54:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:25 I gotta put this in the phone 'cause, uh, I'm always looking for like, a best pizza spot in town.

Philip Frankland Lee 54:31 It's very good. Full disclosure, uh, the chef there, uh, Russell, is, uh, he and I go way back.

Joe Rogan 54:39 Well, I don't think you would lie.

Philip Frankland Lee 54:41 No.

Joe Rogan 54:42 (laughs) Do you have to have a full disclosure? That one's fucking good. Now is, uh, Love Sup- Is that Doughboys? And now, how important is wood fire?

Philip Frankland Lee 54:54 To a pizza or in general?

Joe Rogan 54:56 Yes. To a pizza. 'Cause it's always like, a thing.

Philip Frankland Lee 54:58 I think-

Joe Rogan 54:59 You know, wood fire.

Philip Frankland Lee 54:59 I think you can-

Joe Rogan 54:59 That goddamn Doughboys. That pepperoni.

Jamie Vernon 55:01 That looks really ... I'd, uh ...

Joe Rogan 55:03 You getting into that?

Jamie Vernon 55:03 I'd have to order that.

Joe Rogan 55:04 Fuck sushi, right?

Jamie Vernon 55:05 Well, yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:06 You're all about that. Jamie's all about Doughboys pepperoni.

Jamie Vernon 55:09 I'm just looking for a good pizza place.

Joe Rogan 55:10 That looks fucking bomb diggity.

Philip Frankland Lee 55:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:13 What-

Philip Frankland Lee 55:13 I, I mean, Doughboys is in the back of Meanwhile Brewery.So, uh, they've got some great beers and that's a cool place, just go kinda hang out on a picnic bench.

Joe Rogan 55:21 Uh, I'm sorry, what's the name of the place? You have a-

Philip Frankland Lee 55:22 Uh, Mean Wild Brewery.

Joe Rogan 55:24 Mean Wild Brewery.

Philip Frankland Lee 55:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:25 C- click on that pizza right to the left of that one, man, the, with the little veggies on it. Little, little drop down.

Philip Frankland Lee 55:30 Down? Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:30 Yeah, look at that. Oh, that looks good. That looks fucking good. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm on this, uh, animal-based diet for all of January, so I'm eating all of January is meat and a little bit of fruit. And so, I see pizza and it calls to me.

Philip Frankland Lee 55:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 55:47 You know? Like, that's what I'm doing February 1st.

Philip Frankland Lee 55:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 55:50 I'm gonna fuck up a pizza.

Philip Frankland Lee 55:52 Call me, I'll go with you.

Joe Rogan 55:53 Pizza February?

Philip Frankland Lee 55:53 Okay, let's do it, bro.

Joe Rogan 55:54 Yeah. What's that, Jimmy? All pizza February? Maybe. All pizza Feb- see how fat I get. Mm-hmm. I will look like a beach ball. Sounds like a dirty ball. My face will... My face will go like this. (smacks lips) My stomach will distend. It'll be a real issue.

Philip Frankland Lee 56:09 How's that going with the-

Joe Rogan 56:10 Great.

Philip Frankland Lee 56:10 Yeah?

Joe Rogan 56:10 Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm, I added fruit this year and it changed, uh, everything. First of all, it stopped the diarrhea in its tracks.

Philip Frankland Lee 56:17 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:17 Which is, uh... (laughs) Before, when I've done nothing but meat, it's, I don't know what it is. It just gives you ferocious diarrhea, like oil spill diarrhea. Like, somebody broke a pipeline.

Philip Frankland Lee 56:28 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:29 Not good.

Philip Frankland Lee 56:30 Ma- maybe that's, uh, how you lose weight? I don't know.

Joe Rogan 56:33 Yeah, um, no. I don't think that's how you lose-

Philip Frankland Lee 56:35 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:35 I don't think that's wise. Uh, d- I think you're just losing weight from the lack of calories. I mean, it's a pretty simple equation, right? But th- for me, um, one of the things that comes with eating this is I, I'm eliminating all of the bullshit, right? I'm eliminating a lot of the processed foods-

Philip Frankland Lee 56:52 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 56:52 ... and sugar, and that's really what's w- wrong about most people's diet. It's, uh, it's overconsumption, which I'm a massive... I, I, I have a g- giant problem with eating too much. Like, uh, for instance, I went to Golden Tiger and I ordered three cheeseburgers and a Thai chicken sandwich. I ate three double cheeseburgers, by the way, and a Thai chicken sandwich. And people are like, "What the fuck are you doing?" And I'm like, "I'm hungry." I can-

Philip Frankland Lee 57:21 E- yeah, that's a lot.

Joe Rogan 57:21 I eat a lot of food, man. It's a real problem. But I work out a lot.

Philip Frankland Lee 57:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:25 But because I work out a lot, I get really hungry, and then by the time I get to somewhere to eat, I am like frantic hungry.

Philip Frankland Lee 57:33 See, I can see that 'cause I just recently started like, working out and getting in shape and-

Joe Rogan 57:37 I noticed the Whoop. You got the Whoop strap rocking.

Philip Frankland Lee 57:38 I do, I do, yeah. It's, uh, changed my life, really. Um, but I've noticed that now that I'm like, running a lot and exercising a lot, I get way hungrier.

Joe Rogan 57:48 Oh, yeah, for sure.

Philip Frankland Lee 57:49 And I lose weight even though I eat more.

Joe Rogan 57:51 Yeah. Well, you know, your body has requirements when you're working out.

Philip Frankland Lee 57:54 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 57:54 You know? It's just sustenance when you're not working out, but when you're working out, your body's like, "Get me some fucking protein, let's go."

Philip Frankland Lee 58:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:01 'Cause you know, your, your body recognizes you're breaking down all this tissue and you're... I mean, that's the process of exercise, it's the breaking down, the building back up stronger. And it's like this ... You gotta do it right. Uh, t- so many people start off too hard, you know? They, like, when, when someone has not worked out at all before, I always say, "Listen, all you have to do is go walk around the block and do some push-ups and some jumping jacks, and then build from there. You don't have to go crazy."

Philip Frankland Lee 58:26 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:27 Like, let your body get accustomed to this whole idea of exercise. Don't just go bananas 'cause you won't be able to sustain it and you'll get upset. And don't work out with a friend who goes to CrossFit.

Philip Frankland Lee 58:37 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 58:37 Don't have some fucking fitness fanatic friend who's like, "Try to do this WOD! We're gonna do a WOD today!" And you, you're, you doing burpees and throwing fucking m- kettlebells over your head. You're not gonna do it.

Philip Frankland Lee 58:49 Yeah, no, that's, I-

Joe Rogan 58:50 And you'll get hurt.

Philip Frankland Lee 58:51 I've pretty much just done, been running, really.

Joe Rogan 58:53 That's great.

Philip Frankland Lee 58:54 Yeah, I'm, I'm up to doing about five miles a day every day.

Joe Rogan 58:57 Nice.

Philip Frankland Lee 58:58 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 58:58 That's great.

Philip Frankland Lee 58:58 I just get on, I hit the five mile an hour button, I do one hour.

Joe Rogan 59:01 So, you weren't doing anything before?

Philip Frankland Lee 59:05 No, I worked so much.

Joe Rogan 59:07 Mm-hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 59:07 So, um, I was doing nothing. And I went from having such an active like, childhood of, of like, drumming seven days a week, um, and back then, I would, I'd need three double-doubles, you know, just to keep my weight on. And, um, to just working so much, and I'm on my feet all day, but I'm not sweating-

Joe Rogan 59:26 Right.

Philip Frankland Lee 59:26 ... all day.

Joe Rogan 59:27 You're not exerting-

Philip Frankland Lee 59:28 No.

Joe Rogan 59:28 ... high, high heart rate, you know?

Philip Frankland Lee 59:29 And so, I was having trouble sleeping and, uh, um, (smacks lips) uh, actually, a buddy of mine, uh, got me onto the Whoop and, um, then I had a couple conversations with you about just like, trying to feel better. And, uh, I really started like, I started off really slow and I sorta got into it. And then I went to, um, uh, a doc- the doctor just to get a physical and I found out that I have like, s- or I had scary high cholesterol. They were like, "You're at, you know, you're..." They told me I'm pre-diabetic and I'm at, you know, I'm at risk of having a heart attack-

Joe Rogan 1:00:05 Jesus Christ.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:05 ... within the next couple of years, um, and, uh, I need to do something. And so, I did a l- you know, did a little bit of research on my own, and one of the things was like, getting yourself into, I think it's 70% to 80% of your max heart rate for over 30 minutes.

Joe Rogan 1:00:21 Mm-hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:21 And so, um, I completely changed my diet. I changed like, just my lifestyle, and that's, so every day, I'm running and, uh, eating differently, and I've lost about 30 pounds, and I've dropped about 70 points of my, my, uh, cholesterol.

Joe Rogan 1:00:36 That's fantastic.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:37 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 Did you change, how much did you change your diet at all?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:40 Completely.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 Yeah?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 What, what did you change? What was the big thing?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:43 Well, I c- I've cut out entirely dairy and red meat.

Joe Rogan 1:00:48 No red meat?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:49 No red meat. Well, that's not true.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 I know it's not true-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:51 Nothing, nothing- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:52 ... 'cause you sent me a video of you cooking a red stag, you lying son of a bitch.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:55 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:00:55 Jesus.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:00:56 No saturated fat. No meat with high saturated fats. So, I was eating a lot of like, I mean, just 'cause I have access to it, I was eating a lot of Wagyu beef. I was eating-

Joe Rogan 1:01:05 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:01:05 ... eating a lot of foie gras, I was eating a lot of, uh, you know, ribeyes. Uh, if I was hungry, I'd eat, you know, salamis. Um, and I've just sort of transitioned that out for now if I'm hungry, I eat nuts. Um, eating a lot of like, uh, of turkey and chicken, um-... turns out sushi is actually really good for battling high LDL cholesterol.

Joe Rogan 1:01:27 Really?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:01:27 Yeah. So, um, I've eaten, I always eat a ton of sushi, uh, but eating a lot of fish. Uh, I never really ate a lot of like, um, I don't eat, I don't eat candies. I don't eat a lot of sugars. I don't drink soda. Um, so I didn't have to change any of that. I don't eat a lot of breads. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:01:43 How much do you attribute what the change is to your diet and how much do you attribute it to the increase in exercise?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:01:51 I think that hitting it from both ends, like when, when I went back for my first checkup with the doctor, she was expecting to see like maybe 20 points drop off and I dropped off-

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 Mm-hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:02:01 ... 70.

Joe Rogan 1:02:02 Oh, wow.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:02:02 So, I think it was hitting it from both ends.

Joe Rogan 1:02:05 Yeah. I got my blood, uh, work done and my doctor asked me if I'm on medication, low cholesterol medication. I said, "I eat mostly meat."

Philip Frankland Lee 1:02:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:15 And they were like, "What?" Like, how is that ... What's going on?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:02:19 Yeah. I, I think I was so far over that I was like, I have to just stop cold turkey, I have to reset my body, and then I'm ... Like I, I definitely-

Joe Rogan 1:02:27 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:02:27 ... plan on returning to eating steaks.

Joe Rogan 1:02:28 Well, what I was gonna get to is that I think it's literally a matter of what ... You know, we all wanna think of this one-size-fits-all dietary approach. We, we wanna think about that with everything, really. But it doesn't work that way. There's people that require so much more of their body that they need-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:02:47 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:02:47 ... a different kind of fuel source. They need more fuel. They need d- ... In, in, in a, in a different way. And I think that a person that is on their feet all day like you are, uh, working as a chef, there's a requirement, it's probably pretty high, but, i- like a caloric requirement, but there's also not an exertion.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:03:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:03:09 So, like, you have like this steady ... You're using up calories all day long, but you're never ramping up your heart rate.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:03:16 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:16 You're never like pushing your body. So, it's, it's gotta be weird for your body. Your body's like, "What is this motherfucker doing?"

Philip Frankland Lee 1:03:23 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 Like, "Why are we awake all day?"

Philip Frankland Lee 1:03:25 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:03:25 "And why are we, why are we like just standing up?"

Philip Frankland Lee 1:03:28 Yeah. It's, um ... I definitely have ... I have so much more energy now. Um-

Joe Rogan 1:03:33 Oh, I'm sure.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:03:34 Yeah. It's, it's quite remarkable. Now, I mean, not ... Like you pointed out the Whoop, I'm legitimately obsessed. I wake up every day and the first thing I do-

Joe Rogan 1:03:42 You check your recovery?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:03:42 Every day. And, and I, I, I w- I, I also try as much as I can every day to get my strain exactly where ... So when I look at the little graph, my strain and my, and my recovery like match up.

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 Hmm. Interesting. Now, what about supplements? Are you doing anything to supplement your diet with nutrients?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:04:02 Uh, I take a bunch of vitamins and stuff in the morning, but no specific supplements 'cause I am, you know ... I'm still eating, uh, I'm still eating protein every, like every night I'm either eating, you know ... I'm either eating fish or turkey or chicken or something.

Joe Rogan 1:04:15 Well, that's what I mean by vitamins. I'm-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:04:17 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:17 By supplements, I mean vitamins.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:04:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:04:18 Like, you just, um ... Just normal stuff like multivitamins, fish oil? Like what are you, what are you taking?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:04:24 Yeah. So my, my morning regimen is I take, uh, like about a ... Probably about, probably about one ounce of, uh, apple cider vinegar in a, in a tall glass of water and then a little shot of elderberry syrup and then, uh, a, uh, multivitamin and then a-

Joe Rogan 1:04:41 What about food?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:04:43 What about food?

Joe Rogan 1:04:43 Are you eating this with food?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:04:45 No.

Joe Rogan 1:04:46 That's a problem. Um, you need fat and you need some sort of carbohydrate to bind with the vitamins. When you're taking vitamins and you're not taking vitamins with any food, your body's like, "What is this?" Your body has no idea what it is. Your body's super conf- confused and probably is gonna piss most of it out.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:04 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:05:04 If you wanna get maximum absorption of your f- your vitamins, you must take it with food.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:10 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:10 Yeah. Because otherwise, why would you have these vitamins? Like your body doesn't understand that. Your body understands vitamins in the context of something else, fiber, fat, carbohydrates. Your body doesn't understand like a fistful of vitamins and water. It's like, "What is this bullshit?"

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:27 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:05:27 Vitamins are supposed to be bound to nutrients or, or to food. So, like in the future.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:34 All right.

Joe Rogan 1:05:34 Yeah. In the-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:35 Well, I'll start tomorrow.

Joe Rogan 1:05:36 Yeah. You, you gotta take it with food. Yeah. I have not taken vitamins today at all.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:40 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:40 Because I haven't eaten today.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:41 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:05:41 So, I work out-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:42 I've been-

Joe Rogan 1:05:42 ... most of the time fasted. And, um, I ... You know, the m- the one thing that I will have though is I'll have vitamins that come with, um, Liquid I.V.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:52 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:05:52 Liquid I.V.'s a supplement that I take. I just pour it into a jug of water.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:55 I've been obsessed with it for a while.

Joe Rogan 1:05:56 It's great stuff.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:05:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:05:57 But it has glucose in it, so there's some absorption of vitamins that-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:06:01 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:06:01 ... goes along with ... And they've, you know, they've got this down to a science the way they do it, but when I take actual supplements, my supplements are always with food. And you should do that too. Everyone should do that. If you're taking vitamins without food, your ... The amount of absorption you get is very minimal.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:06:17 Interesting. Okay.

Joe Rogan 1:06:18 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:06:18 Cool.

Joe Rogan 1:06:19 Yeah. It ... The only way you could bypass that is IVs. You could do IV vitamin drips-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:06:25 Yeah, I don't wanna do that. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:26 ... but you're going ... It's great. It's really great. It's about one of the best ways to get like ... If you're sick, I highly recommend it. If you ever get like a really bad cold, hi- high dose vitamin C, D, zinc, glutathione IV, uh, drips are fantastic. It's re- ... 'Cause it'll go, it's going right into your bloodstream. It bypasses, you know, your stomach, your liver, all that jazz. It's going right into the system.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:06:51 Interesting.

Joe Rogan 1:06:52 Yeah. So, all that vitamins you're taking-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:06:54 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:06:54 ... being all that healthy ... I mean there's ... You're probably getting a little bit of carbohydrates with the elderberry syrup. There's something in there. And then-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:07:02 And I, and then, uh, what else ... I'm doing, uh, taking a zinc and a omega-3.

Joe Rogan 1:07:07 If you take a zinc, you should take a zinc with an ionophore. Ionophores are things like quercetin, um, there's some other stuff too I think that works in a similar way. I think curcumin works in a similar way, which is, uh, one element of turmeric. And, um, what you're gonna ... Or, or vice versa. But what you're gonna-... uh, when an ionophore is, it helps the ions get directly into the cells. So, zinc is notoriously difficult for people to just take as a supplement and have it absorbed into your cells, so they recommend taking it with, uh, quercetin.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:07:41 All right. Well, we're gonna have to have this c-

Joe Rogan 1:07:42 We'll talk about all this afterwards.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:07:43 Convers- Yeah, I'm going to have to take notes on it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:44 We'll ride out the- yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, I'm just getting this from doctors too. It's not like ... you know, I didn't know all this.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:07:49 No, but it's, it's, yeah, I appreciate it 'cause I, that's the thing is, this whole little journey for me has been, you know, kind of a little bit of trial and error.

Joe Rogan 1:07:55 And how long has this been going on now?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:07:58 Uh, since I found, since I, I mean, finding out the cholesterol thing was, like, really the big, a big motivator. Um, so probably about three months, three and a half months.

Joe Rogan 1:08:07 Mm-hmm. That's amazing.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:08:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:08 So, three months, you're up to a five mile a day journey. That's really great.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:08:13 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:13 The thing about a treadmill, a lot of people don't li- "Oh, I'd rather run outside." Me too. Sure. Absolutely. Like, when I lived in California, I always ... oh, 'cause there was hills.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:08:23 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:23 There's not a l- lot of hills out here. But the thing about a treadmill is you could do other shit.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:08:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:08:27 Like, you watch a fucking movie and then-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:08:29 And that's, that's been my thing is I'll put on a podcast or if I'm, if I get into a new series, I'll just watch a one-hour episode-

Joe Rogan 1:08:35 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:08:35 ... while I'm running.

Joe Rogan 1:08:36 Amazing.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:08:37 Um, and, uh, no, it's been ... I, you know, I tried running outside. That's how I started first is, like, I was walking around. We have this little loop by our house, so I would, I would walk it and then after a couple weeks, I was like, "You know, I'm gonna walk it twice." And then I was like, "I'm gonna jog it." And then I tried running it, and then my knees and my back and everything just hurt so bad, um, and then I was like, "But I really want to." So I got a treadmill.

Joe Rogan 1:09:01 Do you know how to run correctly?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:09:03 I do now. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:04 (laughs) 'Cause that what was messing your knees up? Were you heel striking?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:09:08 I don't know. I don't know what you call it, but the, the worst pain I got from, from running is ... So, I, I, once I, like, mastered the five mile an hour thing, I tried pushing myself one day, and I was doing, I think I did ... I tried to do the full hour at six and a half miles and, um, my neck and my, my shoulders and my, like, upper back were in, like, excruciating pain and I googled, you know, what that's from, and it's just from literally running with, like, your shoulders up. So, when I was, like, trying to run faster, my shoulders would, would slowly creep up.

Joe Rogan 1:09:41 Oh.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:09:41 And what it explained is that each run is a single rep, so you're doing thousands and thousands of reps with bad form, and you're just wrecking yourself.

Joe Rogan 1:09:51 Oh, interesting.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:09:52 So, um, it showed me some, like, foam roller thing, like how to, like, you know, fix that, and it did, um, like fix my, my back and my neck. And then now I've just pract- like, as I'm running, I am consciously putting my shoulders back and down as I'm running.

Joe Rogan 1:10:07 Hmm. Trying to relax and-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:10:08 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:09 ... in good form. Are you landing on the ball of your feet?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:10:15 Uh, probably.

Joe Rogan 1:10:18 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:10:18 I'm, I'm-

Joe Rogan 1:10:18 You should-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:10:18 ... I'm, like, doing that on the floor right now. I don't know.

Joe Rogan 1:10:20 But you, you should be cognizant of that.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:10:22 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:10:22 It's really a fascinating thing that happened, but Nike, I believe it was Nike, came out with the very first running shoe with a fat heel, and in doing so, they encouraged people to heel strike. They encouraged people to run and land on your heel, and they offered you this big cushion. But in doing that, they completely changed, like, hundreds of thousands of years of biomechanics of people walking and running 'cause you're not supposed to land on your heel like that. I mean, you can a little bit, but you're not supposed to do that consistently and constantly.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:10:54 Yeah, I'm, I'm definitely not running like this-

Joe Rogan 1:10:56 Yeah.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:10:57 ... but I, I thi- I don't think I keep, I don't think my heel, like, stays up the whole time.

Joe Rogan 1:11:01 Well, if you look at, like, a pair of running shoes-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:11:03 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:04 ... the, the heels are always big and fat-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:11:05 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:05 ... and then it narrows down towards the front-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:11:08 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 1:11:08 ... which would encourage you to run and land on the heel-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:11:12 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:11:12 ... 'cause that's where all the cushion is. And they fucked so many people's feet up and knees up and everything from doing that. It's really, like, you talk to, like, people that are experts in biomechanics and people that are experts in running, they're like, "This is the worst fucking thing you could do." Like, you're supposed to ... Your foot is a natural decelerator. Like, when you're landing on the, the ball of your foot, your, your foot slowly lets itself down with the muscles of your calf and your lower leg, and that's how you're supposed to land. Like, your, your foot's a built-in shock absorber. It's really amazing design. And Nike's like, "Nah, let's use foam."

Philip Frankland Lee 1:11:47 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:11:47 "Let's just fucking land on the heel where there's no give at all and use foam." And a lot of people jacked up their knees running l- especially people that weren't conditioned to it, and then they said ... You know, that's what, that's a thing that people do. Like, uh, uh, saying about someone, if you don't exercise at all and you go with a friend to CrossFit, like, no, you have to build up to something like that. You wanna do some shit like that, you gotta get your tissue prepared. Like, slowly over time, build your tendon strength and your muscle strength and your endurance so that you don't drop a weight on your head. Like, all that stuff is like-

Philip Frankland Lee 1:12:18 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:18 ... you gotta do it slowly. But when someone would get, like, a pair of running shoes, like, "I'm gonna run a marathon." Like, fuck.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:12:23 You hurt yourself.

Joe Rogan 1:12:24 Oh, my God. You could hurt yourself.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:12:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:25 Yeah. You could definitely hurt yourself.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:12:27 Yeah, no. I got, I got these shoes that are, you know, they're just, uh, some sort of, you know, Scandinavian design that's supposed to, like, uh, accelerate you or something like that, and-

Joe Rogan 1:12:36 Mm-hmm.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:12:36 ... works.

Joe Rogan 1:12:37 I used to run with toe shoes, those flat-ass, you know, those Vibrams?

Philip Frankland Lee 1:12:41 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:12:42 There, there's no cushion at all.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:12:43 It's, it ... in doing the research about how to, like, what I was doing wrong, it said that you should have the most uncomfortable shoes. Like, the, the more you can pretty much replicate running on just your bare feet is the-

Joe Rogan 1:12:54 Hm.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:12:54 ... the better your form will be and the better runner you'll become.

Joe Rogan 1:12:57 It helped me ... It, it, it really ... The running with those barefoot shoes, and I, I went from those to some other kind because what I, what the problem was, I was running on trails and so there was a lot of rocks.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:13:09 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:09 And, like, I would just occasionally, like-... step on a rock and you can actually injure your foot.

Philip Frankland Lee 1:13:14 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:13:15 'Cause, you know, some of them, they're pokey. And so, then I, I switched to more of a minimalist shoe, but