Joe Rogan Experience #1765 - Philip Frankland Lee

1. 0:00 – 2:18

   Fish preferences, spicy tolerance, and why tastes differ

   1. PLPhilip Frankland Lee0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience. (rock music)

   3. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. So, Phillip, my friend Phillip here, who's the head chef of the greatest sushi place on planet Earth.

   4. JVJamie Vernon0:19

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan0:20

      I say to young Jamie, "Young Jamie, have you had sushi at Sushi Bar ATX yet?" And he goes, "I don't like fish."

   6. JVJamie Vernon0:28

      Yep. (laughs)

   7. PLPhilip Frankland Lee0:29

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:30

      Put that mic in front of your face.

   9. JVJamie Vernon0:31

      What's wrong with that?

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:32

       What is ... What, what could you not like about fish?

   11. JVJamie Vernon0:35

       Um, well, I've ... Like, I've eaten it. I'm not, like, afraid to try it all the time. I've worked at restaurants and, you know, they've made really great halibut and-

   12. JRJoe Rogan0:42

       Okay, what about filet-o-fish sandwiches from McDonald's?

   13. JVJamie Vernon0:45

       Oh, no, that's not ...

   14. JRJoe Rogan0:45

       How ... What the fuck? Those are goddamn delicious.

   15. JVJamie Vernon0:48

       It's like a smell and taste to it that just ...

   16. PLPhilip Frankland Lee0:50

       I mean, have you, have you tried fish ... I mean, obviously, you know, a filet-o-fish sandwich is not gonna be, you know, $100 pound toro. Um-

   17. JRJoe Rogan0:58

       But it's still delicious. Filet-o-fish is like the best thing McDonald's ever figured out.

   18. JVJamie Vernon1:04

       I ... No.

   19. PLPhilip Frankland Lee1:05

       (laughs)

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:05

       Listen ... Yes. Listen, I know it's terrible for you. Like, every time I eat one, my ... I'm, I'm ... There's like the brain is saying to the mouth, "What the fuck is wrong with you?" And then the body's like, "Dude ..." But the mouth's like, "Shut up, bitch." And I'm having-

   21. JVJamie Vernon1:18

       I don't know, man. I'm steak and potatoes from Ohio. Like, it's just ... That's, you know?

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       I enjoy steak and potatoes as well though.

   23. JVJamie Vernon1:23

       I just ... It's, uh, uh, I don't know.

   24. PLPhilip Frankland Lee1:26

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:26

       Some people just-

   26. JVJamie Vernon1:27

       It's hard to say.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:27

       I always wonder if people just have ... Like, if their tongue works different. Like, uh, I have two, my youngest daught-... You've met my kids, right?

   28. PLPhilip Frankland Lee1:35

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:36

       My youngest loves spicy food. I mean, she can fuck with some really spicy hot sauce. Like, uh, I got this, uh, Señor Lechuga, uh, uh, hot sauce. They sent me a bunch of it. It's awesome stuff. And they sent me some with, uh, Reapers.

   30. PLPhilip Frankland Lee1:52

       (laughs)
2. 2:18 – 4:03

   Caffeine aversion, Red Bull lore, and energy drink chemistry jokes

   1. PLPhilip Frankland Lee2:18

      Yeah, I mean, everyone's a little bit different with the way that they're ... You know, like, coffee, I hate coffee.

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:23

      That's so odd to me.

   3. PLPhilip Frankland Lee2:24

      I think the flavor is disgusting. And I ... It's, it's ... You know, I've definitely had that conversation w- with people before, and they're like, "Well, you haven't tried the right coffee."

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:31

      Right.

   5. PLPhilip Frankland Lee2:31

      And I've tried everybody's who suggested that. I just think it tastes disgusting. It tastes burnt.

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:37

      Do you not like caffeine, or do you not like-

   7. PLPhilip Frankland Lee2:39

      Well, I don't do caffeine.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:41

      None?

   9. PLPhilip Frankland Lee2:42

      My body doesn't, doesn't work well with it.

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:43

       What happens when you have caffeine?

   11. PLPhilip Frankland Lee2:45

       I just get shaky.

   12. JRJoe Rogan2:46

       Oh, really?

   13. PLPhilip Frankland Lee2:46

       I, I think I kinda OD'd on, uh, on Red Bulls when I was younger.

   14. JRJoe Rogan2:50

       (laughs)

   15. PLPhilip Frankland Lee2:51

       I used to drink, like, four, five a day, and then one day, I just ... Just didn't work anymore.

   16. JRJoe Rogan2:56

       Did you see that, uh, refrigerator that we have out in the hallway that's a Black Rifle Coffee refrigerator?

   17. PLPhilip Frankland Lee3:00

       Yeah.

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:00

       They have these cans of Black Rifle Coffee. It's like a, a cold ... It's like espresso with milk and sugar. It's so fucking good. They're so delicious. But there's 300 milligrams of caffeine-

   19. PLPhilip Frankland Lee3:14

       Yeah, it could probably kill me.

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:15

       ... in every can.

   21. PLPhilip Frankland Lee3:16

       (laughs)

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:17

       (laughs) I mean, what is a Red Bull? A Red Bull's like, I'mma guess, 150? Is a Red Bull ... Let's guess. How many, how many milligrams?

   23. PLPhilip Frankland Lee3:26

       Not even a ... No idea.

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:28

       I don't know.

   25. PLPhilip Frankland Lee3:28

       Too many.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:29

       What is it?

   27. JVJamie Vernon3:29

       A 12 ounce can, it says 111.

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:32

       Okay, that ain't shit.

   29. JVJamie Vernon3:33

       It's got that taurine. I'm just kidding.

   30. PLPhilip Frankland Lee3:34

       (laughs)
3. 4:03 – 5:40

   Rare Japanese whiskey tasting: Yamazaki Sherry Cask as a ‘holy grail’ bottle

   1. JRJoe Rogan4:03

      I have no idea. I have no reference point. But here's the thing. Um, you gave me this. Thank you very much.

   2. PLPhilip Frankland Lee4:08

      Absolutely.

   3. JRJoe Rogan4:09

      This is, uh, it says the Yamazaki single malt Japanese whiskey, and you said that this is, uh, a-

   4. PLPhilip Frankland Lee4:15

      So, yeah. So, the Yamazaki sherry cask, uh, 2016, this bottle won, I can't remember which, you know, whiskey world awards or whatever, but it did win gold. Um, and so this became, like ... I don't wanna call it the Holy Grail, but it became one of the most sought after bottles of whiskey in modern times.

   5. JRJoe Rogan4:35

      Mm.

   6. PLPhilip Frankland Lee4:36

      And, uh, mainly not just because of how, the fact that it won gold, but they only made enough to produce 5,000 bottles. And so the bottles have been gone for quite some time.

   7. JRJoe Rogan4:46

      Listen to this. Here we go. Oh, that smells good. I have a buddy, my buddy Alex. Shout out to Alex. He's, uh, he's really into, like, really nice Japanese whiskey.

   8. PLPhilip Frankland Lee4:59

      He'll get a g-

   9. JRJoe Rogan4:59

      Here you go.

   10. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:00

       He- he'll, he'll ... He knows this.

   11. JRJoe Rogan5:01

       Give me that glass, son. Come on.

   12. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:03

       Give me just, just a, just a touch.

   13. JRJoe Rogan5:04

       We need to share it. Just a touch.

   14. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:06

       'Cause that, that bottle's gotta last. There's not many left.

   15. JRJoe Rogan5:08

       Come on. Nothing lasts.

   16. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:11

       (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan5:11

       What, are you gonna live forever? Cheers, my friend.

   18. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:13

       Cheers.

   19. JRJoe Rogan5:18

       Oh, wow, that's interesting. That-

   20. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:20

       It's almost, like, ethereal. It's like ...

   21. JRJoe Rogan5:23

       God, that's unique.

   22. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:25

       Mm-hmm.

   23. JRJoe Rogan5:25

       That is very unique. That's a, um, surprising taste, because it is whiskey-like.

   24. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:33

       Mm-hmm.

   25. JRJoe Rogan5:33

       But it's very different than any other whiskey I've ever tried.

   26. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:36

       It's also like ... Feel now, it's almost like tingling, like, all around your palate.

4. 5:40 – 10:08

   Two Michelin stars reveal: the Zoom call surprise and what stars mean

   1. JRJoe Rogan5:40

      Hmm. So, when did you know that you wanted to be a chef? Like, how long have you been, like, really into cooking? 'Cause you're a young guy. By the way, congratulations on the Michelin stars.

   2. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:51

      Thank you.

   3. JRJoe Rogan5:52

      That's a-

   4. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:52

      Thank you.

   5. JRJoe Rogan5:52

      That's giant, right? In the world of chefs, that's, that's the fucking thing, right?

   6. PLPhilip Frankland Lee5:56

      Yeah, um, I'd- I mean, I dedicated the last ...... probably 15 years of my life just to trying to get a Michelin star and, uh, when I found out this year, uh, they had me on a, on a Zoom call. They kind of, they kind of lied to me. They kind of, uh, what they did is they said, uh, "We wanna..." They said, first of all they said, "You're not gonna, you're not getting a star this year, just so you know. But we wanna have, uh, send someone to the restaurant in Los Angeles and, um, we have some interview questions we wanna ask you about, uh, you know, how it was to operate during COVID." And I said, "Well, I'm in Austin, but I, I can fly back." And they're like, "No, no big deal, don't fly back. Just, just Zoom in." So I zoom in and they have my wife, uh, who's our pastry chef and my business partner, um, she's at the restaurant and so is my brother who is the chef of, uh, uh, Sushi Bar in Montecito, uh, and our chef at, uh, Pasta Bar, and they're all three there, uh, just in the restaurant and I'm at my house here in Austin and I'm on Zoom. And they start asking us some random questions about, uh, you know, how is it... You know, "What's it like being open and what have been the, the, the, you know, pitfalls you had to overcome." And, uh, then out of nowhere they just go, "Oh, and, um, I have one extra question. Um, uh, congratulations. Uh, two of your restaurants are getting Michelin stars."

   7. JRJoe Rogan7:16

      Oh, they snuck it in on you.

   8. PLPhilip Frankland Lee7:17

      They snuck it in. And I'm on-

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:19

      Oh.

   10. PLPhilip Frankland Lee7:19

       And the thing is, I'm on a Zoom and so I was like, "Wait, what? What did she say?"

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:22

       (laughs)

   12. PLPhilip Frankland Lee7:22

       Like I couldn't, I couldn't hear and, and everyone's, it, it... And I thought we had just gotten one and it turned out they said, "No, no, no." And I said, "Wait, what, which res- which restaurant?" And they said, "Sushi Bar, Montecito and, uh, uh, and Pasta Bar." And, uh, I just started-

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:39

       And Pasta Bar is in LA?

   14. PLPhilip Frankland Lee7:40

       Pasta Bar is in LA, and, um, I just started crying. (sniffs)

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:43

       Wow.

   16. PLPhilip Frankland Lee7:44

       Yeah, so...

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:45

       I've, I was just reading, uh, on the history of the Michelin star and that it was really back in the early days of travel.

   18. PLPhilip Frankland Lee7:53

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:53

       They had a book would show you where you can get your car repaired, where you could refuel, and then where you can get something to eat.

   20. PLPhilip Frankland Lee8:01

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:01

       And then people got really obsessed with the where to get something to eat part, and then it became a separate entity.

   22. PLPhilip Frankland Lee8:08

       It was never sep-... I don't think they ever set out to become the world standard on cuisine. I don't think that was ever the point. The point was we have to give you a reason to buy tires and that reason is to drive, and so here's some things to drive to. And so, that's what the one star, two star, three star, you know, delineations have t- have to do with is this one is worth, you know, a stop, this one's worth a detour, and this one's worth a journey.

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:37

       Oh.

   24. PLPhilip Frankland Lee8:38

       And so that's how you get one star, two star, three star. So, one star means if it's on your way, stop. That was over 100 years ago. Now, one star means, you know, fly there. But three star means, like, upend your life and go figure, like, go find that place.

   25. JRJoe Rogan8:52

       We... What's, what's that? Who's got three stars?

   26. PLPhilip Frankland Lee8:55

       Uh, here in America, not many people.

   27. JRJoe Rogan8:57

       McDonald's.

   28. PLPhilip Frankland Lee8:57

       McDonald's, yes.

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:58

       McDonald's Filet-O-Fish.

   30. PLPhilip Frankland Lee8:58

       I think they have, I think they have four stars actually.
5. 10:08 – 12:09

   Fine dining as art: El Bulli, molecular gastronomy, and Bourdain’s influence

   1. PLPhilip Frankland Lee10:08

      El Bulli was on the top of a mountain.

   2. JRJoe Rogan10:10

      Where's El Bulli?

   3. PLPhilip Frankland Lee10:11

      Well, that's been closed for a long time, but that was in Spain.

   4. JRJoe Rogan10:14

      Oh, yeah?

   5. PLPhilip Frankland Lee10:14

      Yeah. So, I mean, there's-

   6. JRJoe Rogan10:15

      You're saying that like I know.

   7. PLPhilip Frankland Lee10:16

      (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan10:16

      I don't know any of this. Listen, (laughs) you, let me into your world (laughs) . I don't know what you're talking about. What's El Bulli?

   9. PLPhilip Frankland Lee10:22

      Uh, so that was Feranadriu. Um, they, uh, they were named best restaurant in the world several years over. Um, it was really the restaurant that, uh, really brought what became known as molecular gastronomy, the, all the food that's, that, y- you know, Jaime would probably look at it and say, "This is... What, what am I looking at? This doesn't look like food. This looks like interesting abstract art." Um, but, you know, they fig- you know, today you have restaurants where, you know, you'll get literally a balloon that's brought out to the table and you eat the, suck the helium out and eat the balloon and that's, you know, one of the courses.

   10. JRJoe Rogan11:02

       (laughs) Oh, wow. 12 iconic dishes of El Bulli. Mm. So, this is like fancy dining and this is like-

   11. PLPhilip Frankland Lee11:13

       It's beyond fancy dining. It's, it's art.

   12. JRJoe Rogan11:14

       Someone from Jaime's lineage would look up this and...

   13. JVJamie Vernon11:17

       Well, yeah.

   14. PLPhilip Frankland Lee11:18

       If, if you asked him, "Is th-, like, what is this?" And you didn't tell him it was... You wouldn't think that was food.

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:23

       Yeah. Jaime's not into this. I can tell already.

   16. JVJamie Vernon11:26

       Is that a sea urchin?

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:27

       (laughs)

   18. PLPhilip Frankland Lee11:27

       That, that is sea urchin.

   19. JVJamie Vernon11:29

       Oh, delicious.

   20. JRJoe Rogan11:30

       Do you like sea urchin?

   21. JVJamie Vernon11:31

       No, I'm forced... I just tried octopus recently.

   22. PLPhilip Frankland Lee11:33

       And?

   23. JVJamie Vernon11:34

       Uh, okay.

   24. JRJoe Rogan11:35

       I feel bad eating octopus 'cause I found out how fucking smart they are.

   25. JVJamie Vernon11:37

       I know, that's what I thought. I was like, I'll try it so I can say I tried it but...

   26. JRJoe Rogan11:40

       They're, but they're, you know, they're fucking-

   27. PLPhilip Frankland Lee11:43

       They're so fucking good though.

   28. JRJoe Rogan11:44

       They're very good but they are murderers. I mean, they murder everything.

   29. JVJamie Vernon11:46

       Yeah, I'd rather have macaroni and cheese instead or...

   30. JRJoe Rogan11:50

       Oh my God. Macaroni and cheese.
6. 12:09 – 19:42

   Comfort food craft: Philip’s layered mac-and-cheese technique

   1. PLPhilip Frankland Lee12:09

      My house for Thanksgiving. That's where you get the best mac and cheese.

   2. JRJoe Rogan12:12

      You make mac and cheese?

   3. PLPhilip Frankland Lee12:12

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan12:13

      Yeah? What, what do you do with it?

   5. PLPhilip Frankland Lee12:15

      So, it's, uh, partially my grandma's recipe. Um, so basically I make a, I make a cheese sauce separately with, uh, with Gruyere, sharp cheddar. Um, and then, uh, I'll boil the macaroni, cool it down, and then I'll take a bunch of shredded cheese as well and, uh, kind of layer it, uh, almost like a, almost like you would be layering, like, a lasagna a little bit, and then cover the entire top with, uh, melted cheese as well. And then, kind of the secret to that is, in the cheese sauce, uh, smoked paprika.

   6. JRJoe Rogan12:50

      Mm.

   7. PLPhilip Frankland Lee12:51

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan12:51

      Mm.

   9. PLPhilip Frankland Lee12:52

      And so when you eat it, it's got a little bit of the, you know, Kraft mac and cheese of, like, the, the, like, the ... What do you use even? Like, the sauciness? Uh, but you have layers and you build it when it's cold, so you have layers of just shredded cheese all through it, so you still have that, that pull of the cheese like a nice pizza.

   10. JRJoe Rogan13:10

       Mm. So-

   11. PLPhilip Frankland Lee13:11

       And then you have a crispy cheese crust.

   12. JRJoe Rogan13:14

       Lasagna-like, almost.

   13. PLPhilip Frankland Lee13:15

       It's really good.

   14. JRJoe Rogan13:16

       Wow. Damn, son.

   15. PLPhilip Frankland Lee13:18

       Yeah.

   16. JRJoe Rogan13:18

       You know, I am, uh, addicted to watch... There's so many, um, pages on Instagram now (clears throat) that are just d- They're essentially, like, a one-minute cooking show. Have you ever watched any of those?

   17. PLPhilip Frankland Lee13:30

       Maybe. I'm sure, I'm sure I've flipped through 'em.

   18. JRJoe Rogan13:31

       It's ... Why do people love looking at people cooking food? 'Cause I fucking love it.

   19. PLPhilip Frankland Lee13:37

       Yeah, um, I think it's gotta be something, like, psychological.

   20. JRJoe Rogan13:42

       Mm.

   21. PLPhilip Frankland Lee13:42

       It's gotta be something about, like, watching somebody nourish. Like some- like, creating nourishment, maybe?

   22. JRJoe Rogan13:48

       Mm.

   23. PLPhilip Frankland Lee13:49

       In some sort of, like, you know, uh, abstract way that you haven't really ...

   24. JRJoe Rogan13:52

       It's an art thing, though. It's also, like, there's a beauty to it. There's a creation of, like, um, a delicious meal. Like, you know how good that's gonna taste 'cause you've had something similar. And so you're watching them put together some dish with skill and k- And then all the different elements of it and all the, you know, the knowledge that has to be. Uh, y- you have to, you have to earn the ability to cook a delicious meal.

   25. PLPhilip Frankland Lee14:19

       (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan14:19

       Like, you have... It's not something very simple. Like, to do it just right, it's, it's a art form.

   27. PLPhilip Frankland Lee14:27

       It is. But it's, it... But like most art forms, it's a craft. And it's a practicable craft.

   28. JRJoe Rogan14:31

       Mm. Yeah.

   29. PLPhilip Frankland Lee14:32

       And, but I think back to what you were saying about, um, like, what, why are people attracted to that? I mean, you can go on and watch, you know, people blow dry their hair or apply makeup, and that, you know, is probably attracting some people, but only people who care about, you know, makeup. Where it feels like even people who aren't into food, who aren't, like, you know, you know, self-acclaimed foodies, they still like watching food. And I think it has to be something deeper than just a craft that is interesting to look at.

   30. JRJoe Rogan15:03

       Yeah. Though that's one of the things that's fascinating about it, is that it is a craft, but it's also, like you said, it's nourishment. I mean, everybody needs food. And it's also ... It looks fucking amazing.
7. 19:42 – 24:20

   Chef vs cook, kitchen hierarchy, and demystifying sous vide

   1. PLPhilip Frankland Lee19:42

      I used to watch, like, food TV religiously. Um, I think, and that was, that was, you know, when I was sort of, like, just up and coming as, like, a young cook, um, when, you know... The thing is, being a chef and being a cook are two entirely different things. Obviously, being a cook is a, is a prerequisite.

   2. JRJoe Rogan20:01

      What's the difference?

   3. PLPhilip Frankland Lee20:02

      So, if, if, if I was to come over to your house tonight and I was to cook you the best meal you ever had, that would not make me a great chef. That would make me a great cook.

   4. JRJoe Rogan20:12

      So, you'd cook one thing. Like, maybe a chef means you can cook a bunch of different things.

   5. PLPhilip Frankland Lee20:16

      No. The fact that I did it myself. If I cook you food, I'm cooking. If I brought five or six people over to your house and I got them to work together to make you the best meal you've ever had, that would make me a chef.

   6. JRJoe Rogan20:32

      Oh.

   7. PLPhilip Frankland Lee20:32

      So, call- calling, uh, saying that like, you know, I, you know, "My wife make, you know, my wife cooks great food, so she's a fantastic chef," isn't correct. It's, it's more like saying that, uh, a conductor of an orchestra, you wouldn't call the conductor a great violinist. Now, the conductor probably needs to not just know how to play the violin, but also, you know, be very good at it.

   8. JRJoe Rogan20:55

      Oh, okay. So, a chef can cook, but they really coordinate all these people that are cooking together in a restaurant.

   9. PLPhilip Frankland Lee21:01

      It means chief.

   10. JRJoe Rogan21:03

       But when you have a private chef that people hire to their home to cook for them, and that's an individual, what is that guy? Now a private cook?

   11. PLPhilip Frankland Lee21:11

       Well, you can hire a private chef. That sounds a lot better than a private cook, but what is that per- what is the job function of that person? Well, I guess in that scenario, if you just have a s- 'cause there's some households that have, you know, a team, right? Um, and some households would have a single individual who's cooking. So, you can, you can be the chef who also cooks. Um, it's not to say that if you cook, you are therefore not a chef. It's just that the difference, and we're talking more about in the, you know, in the industry, um, being a chef is to be someone who brings others together to cook as opposed to someone who just cooks.

   12. JRJoe Rogan21:45

       So, you would call, like, if you were working in a restaurant, like, a steak restaurant, the chef would be the main guy that tells everybody what to do.

   13. PLPhilip Frankland Lee21:51

       That's the person who's typically writing the menu, who's handling all the ordering. That's typically the person who's dealing with the broken dishwasher.

   14. JRJoe Rogan21:59

       Oh. Well, that's not glamorous.

   15. PLPhilip Frankland Lee22:01

       No.

   16. JRJoe Rogan22:01

       The fuck is that?

   17. PLPhilip Frankland Lee22:02

       No.

   18. JRJoe Rogan22:02

       Don't you have a guy that handles (laughs) the dishwasher?

   19. JVJamie Vernon22:04

       (laughs)

   20. PLPhilip Frankland Lee22:04

       Well, I guess maybe if you're at a famous steak house, maybe the dish-

   21. JRJoe Rogan22:06

       Mm-hmm.

   22. PLPhilip Frankland Lee22:06

       ... the chef isn't dealing with that, but in a, in a, in a normal, you know, restaurant.

   23. JRJoe Rogan22:10

       Small restaurant.

   24. PLPhilip Frankland Lee22:11

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan22:11

       Yeah. And so, the other people that are working for them that are cooking the meals, you wouldn't consider them chefs as well.

   26. PLPhilip Frankland Lee22:16

       Well, that's why the person who typically runs, like, the line, uh, is called the sous chef, under chef.

   27. JRJoe Rogan22:23

       Oh, that's what sous means.

   28. PLPhilip Frankland Lee22:24

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan22:25

       S-O-U-S?

   30. PLPhilip Frankland Lee22:25

       S-O-U-S.
8. 24:20 – 29:43

   Culinary school dropout: why experience beats credentials (sometimes)

   1. JRJoe Rogan24:20

      Now, when you first started cooking, did you go to culinary school? Did you, were you cooking actively before you went to culinary school?

   2. PLPhilip Frankland Lee24:27

      Yeah, so I went to culinary school. I had been cooking for years. Um, and I only went for a few months and I dropped out.

   3. JRJoe Rogan24:33

      Really?

   4. PLPhilip Frankland Lee24:33

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan24:35

      Look at that, kids.

   6. PLPhilip Frankland Lee24:36

      (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan24:36

      You can drop out of culinary school and get two Michelin stars. (laughs)

   8. JVJamie Vernon24:39

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan24:39

      Why did you drop out?

   10. PLPhilip Frankland Lee24:41

       I thought I was going to, like, university of food.You know, I, I, I enrolled because I wanted to learn why. I wanted to learn and everything I knew up until that point in my career was just what the guy next to me had taught me, and that was because he was like, "All right, once you get here, okay, turn that. Okay, you see what you're looking..." And that, that, that's it. "Just do this." As a line cook, you, you spend most of your time just doing what you're told, and so I thought, "Okay, I..." At this point, this is what I knew what I wanted to do, and so I thought to myself that I'm gonna go to school and really learn about this. And then I got there, and it was cooking class, and I, I had no, no, uh, desire to, to take cooking classes.

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:29

       Well, what do you mean by cooking class? It was just s- step by step basics?

   12. PLPhilip Frankland Lee25:33

       Yeah, I'm, I'm-

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:33

       They're teaching you the alphabet, essentially?

   14. PLPhilip Frankland Lee25:35

       Kind of. It was... I mean, it wasn't even that, that it was the alphabet. It was... Well, there was a couple of, of, of reasons that I quit. Um, one was actually, we talked about The French Laundry, I had the opportunity while I was in culinary school, one of my, uh, chefs, um, had invited me to go with, with him and another group of chefs to the, uh, The French Laundry. And I went to my teacher, uh, and said, "Hey, uh, I need a couple days off. I have been invited." And they had this really strict rule of if you miss two, uh, two classes in any, uh, semester or whatever, you fail the class. And this was like, um, a breakfast egg cookery class, uh, and I said, "Well, I used to work at a restaurant called BLD in Los Angeles and, um, I worked both the plancha and sometimes I worked the egg station and we did 400 cover brunches, um, I could like, I know that we're gonna boil one egg at a time next week, uh, but like, can I... You know, this is a fantastic opportunity for me as a young cook to go and have dinner with these chefs at The French Laundry." And they said, "Sorry, you know, if, if you're not here for this then you, you're gonna fail." And I said, "Well then fuck that. I should be getting extra credit."

   15. JRJoe Rogan26:49

       Yeah, it seems like that would be w- a wiser choice, to give you credit, not-

   16. PLPhilip Frankland Lee26:53

       Yeah, I-

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:53

       ... fail you.

   18. PLPhilip Frankland Lee26:54

       And, and I also said, "Well, I'll, look, I'll take the f- the, the final quiz for this class now," which is, you know, I have to make the dish, I already spent over a year working four undercover brunches at a really nice restaurant. I, like, you're... I'm not gonna learn that much more than what I've already done in real life. I've already left that part of my career to go on, you know, to the bigger and better restaurants.

   19. JRJoe Rogan27:17

       So, did you feel like the system was just too rigid or it's just the way they were c- teaching it?

   20. PLPhilip Frankland Lee27:21

       Well, they ended up getting a huge class action lawsuit against them later on and they had to give everyone their tuition money back, I think.

   21. JRJoe Rogan27:28

       Why?

   22. PLPhilip Frankland Lee27:31

       I didn't follow it. I also didn't join the class action lawsuit, but, um, I think it was something about over-promising and under-delivering.

   23. JRJoe Rogan27:39

       Hmm. Okay. Well, is it safe to say that all culinary schools are not created equal?

   24. PLPhilip Frankland Lee27:45

       Oh, a hundred percent.

   25. JRJoe Rogan27:46

       So, if you went to another one, maybe-

   26. PLPhilip Frankland Lee27:47

       Yeah, I, I, I don't think culinary school's not worth it, I just think that, um, like if, like if you were to come to me, you know, 30, 40 years ago and said, "I wanna be a cook," I would say, uh, "Don't go to culinary school, 'cause if you go to culinary school, you come out with debt, and if you come out of culinary school and we hire you at one of our restaurants, we're gonna end up saying to you, 'Great. Everything you just learned? Okay, don't do any of that, 'cause now we want you to do it exactly how we do it, and we're gonna show you how we do it.' You're also gonna start out at the bottom of the totem pole. So, you're gonna start out, you're gonna be, you know, peeling onions."

   27. JRJoe Rogan28:26

       So, cooking, is it safe to say or fair to say that it's essentially, it's a craft that is best learned on the job?

   28. PLPhilip Frankland Lee28:34

       Yeah, I mean, think about like, you've been around, like, tattoo shops enough.

   29. JRJoe Rogan28:38

       Sure.

   30. PLPhilip Frankland Lee28:39

       You know what they, what like, the apprentices go through to be able to tattoo there?
9. 29:43 – 38:48

   Origin story: childhood cooking, drumming, and a detour into poker

   1. PLPhilip Frankland Lee29:43

      Um, so my, so I started... Well, I actually feel like I should answer the very first question you asked me, which is when did I know I wanted to cook?

   2. JRJoe Rogan29:49

      Yeah.

   3. PLPhilip Frankland Lee29:49

      'Cause that kind of gets us there. Um, so I guess my dad knew before I knew, 'cause, uh, he just recently, uh, sent me a video. It's actually on my Instagram, um, it's, uh, my third birthday party and he's bought me a chef's knife.

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:06

      Wow.

   5. PLPhilip Frankland Lee30:07

      Yeah.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:08

      Your third birthday party?

   7. PLPhilip Frankland Lee30:09

      My third birthday party. And he can, you can clearly hear him say, (laughs) it's funny 'cause I think, I haven't gotten the full story, but I think my mom's holding the old, you know, the old camera and it kind of shaking, and I guess he says, oh-

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:22

      There it is right there.

   9. PLPhilip Frankland Lee30:23

      I think he, he says, "I don't know what else to get him. All he wants to do is cook."

   10. JVJamie Vernon30:26

       Oh. Yeah, you know what? He always wants to cook. So there you go.

   11. JRJoe Rogan30:29

       (laughs)

   12. PLPhilip Frankland Lee30:30

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan30:31

       That's not a real knife, is it? Did he give you, get you a real chef's knife?

   14. PLPhilip Frankland Lee30:35

       I actually haven't asked him 'cause he sent that to me and he said, "Look, you've always wanted to cook." Um, so I don't know if that's a, uh, I prob- but knowing my dad, yeah, it's probably a real knife.

   15. JRJoe Rogan30:45

       And did he just hide it from you? "Here's your, here's your knife and then I'm gonna hide it."

   16. PLPhilip Frankland Lee30:48

       No, I, I cooked growing up every day.

   17. JRJoe Rogan30:49

       But did you use that knife?

   18. PLPhilip Frankland Lee30:51

       I don't remember.

   19. JRJoe Rogan30:52

       When you were three?

   20. PLPhilip Frankland Lee30:53

       Yeah, probably not, probably wasn't.

   21. JRJoe Rogan30:55

       Yeah. That seems like a lot for a three-year-old, those little tiny fingers.

   22. PLPhilip Frankland Lee30:58

       (exhales) Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan30:59

       Let me see your fingers. They're all there-

   24. PLPhilip Frankland Lee31:00

       They're all there but-

   25. JRJoe Rogan31:00

       ... so you probably didn't use it.

   26. PLPhilip Frankland Lee31:01

       ... but I'm missing, uh, you know, some parts.

   27. JRJoe Rogan31:02

       Are you?

   28. PLPhilip Frankland Lee31:03

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan31:03

       Some tips?

   30. PLPhilip Frankland Lee31:04

       Yeah.
10. 38:48 – 57:33

    Restaurant boot camp: dish pit beginnings, brutal hours, and relationship tradeoffs

    1. PLPhilip Frankland Lee38:48

       her, um, catering company, met the chef, uh, the first thing was like, "Okay, you're making family meal today." And so I cooked for the whole staff and she said, "I'll hire you as a dishwasher."

    2. JRJoe Rogan39:00

       (laughs) oh, Jesus.

    3. PLPhilip Frankland Lee39:04

       Uh, and, um-

    4. JRJoe Rogan39:04

       Was that because that was the only job they had available?

    5. PLPhilip Frankland Lee39:08

       Looking back at it, I was offended and angry, but I didn't care because of what she said after that, which is, um, "You don't get to start being a cook. You have to start as a dishwasher so you can have respect for, um, you know, what it is that the dishwashers do." And, um, she said, "Here's how this works. The faster you clean that dish pit, the more I'll teach you. So whenever that dish pit's clean, you come and find me and I'll give you a task. But if there's ever any dishes, that's what you're doing."

    6. JRJoe Rogan39:41

       Hmm.

    7. PLPhilip Frankland Lee39:42

       So, it kind of gave me that, that bit of work ethic of like, "All right, I'm gonna work my way into the ne- that next position."

    8. JRJoe Rogan39:48

       That seems to be a theme with great restaurants, and when you talk to chefs, this work ethic theme, because it seems like when y- you know, you talk to people that have worked in restaurants, one of the things that they will almost unanimously discuss is the amount of hours, and the grind, and how difficult it is.

    9. PLPhilip Frankland Lee40:09

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan40:09

        And that development of work ethic almost is like kind of a boot camp for chefs.

    11. PLPhilip Frankland Lee40:15

        It is. It's, um, I mean, it's not so much anymore. Laws have changed, culture has changed, but it was, you're spending, like a 16 hour day was not even a really long day.

    12. JRJoe Rogan40:32

        I dated a girl once who went to college for restaurant and hotel management, and then she got a job at this restaurant, and I remember I would go visit her and she was fucking miserable.

    13. PLPhilip Frankland Lee40:47

        (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan40:48

        I mean, miserable. She couldn't believe the hours that she had to work.

    15. PLPhilip Frankland Lee40:51

        But you have to love it.

    16. JRJoe Rogan40:52

        Yeah, she didn't love it.

    17. PLPhilip Frankland Lee40:52

        That's an industry you have to love.

    18. JRJoe Rogan40:54

        Well, she just wanted a career, you know? She had went to school, she graduated from school, and then she had this c- this job that was like... And then she had this boyfriend who was a fuck up, who was a comedian, so it was like very, very weird for her, because like I had most of my day completely free (laughs) , and she was working, you know, 14, 15 hours a day at least.

    19. PLPhilip Frankland Lee41:18

        Yeah. I mean, it's, it's one of those things where if you really want to take food seriously and cooking seriously, you're gonna have to, you know, make a lot of sacrifices.

    20. JRJoe Rogan41:29

        Yeah.

    21. PLPhilip Frankland Lee41:29

        You know, I've, I've-

    22. JRJoe Rogan41:30

        Just the time.

    23. PLPhilip Frankland Lee41:31

        Mm-hmm. You're not there for birthdays, you're not there for anniversaries, you're not there for, for, for, uh, Valentine's Day for sure.

    24. JRJoe Rogan41:37

        'Cause you have to work.

    25. PLPhilip Frankland Lee41:38

        'Cause you have to work.

    26. JRJoe Rogan41:39

        It's a big day.

    27. PLPhilip Frankland Lee41:39

        Yeah.

    28. JRJoe Rogan41:39

        Yeah.

    29. PLPhilip Frankland Lee41:40

        'Cause someone has to cook at all those restaurants you go to.

    30. JRJoe Rogan41:42

        Yeah. Yeah, people listening, if you are thinking of going down this path-
11. 57:33 – 1:22:48

    Health reboot: Whoop tracking, weight loss, cholesterol scare, and diet changes

    1. PLPhilip Frankland Lee57:33

       See, I can see that 'cause I just recently started like, working out and getting in shape and-

    2. JRJoe Rogan57:37

       I noticed the Whoop. You got the Whoop strap rocking.

    3. PLPhilip Frankland Lee57:38

       I do, I do, yeah. It's, uh, changed my life, really. Um, but I've noticed that now that I'm like, running a lot and exercising a lot, I get way hungrier.

    4. JRJoe Rogan57:48

       Oh, yeah, for sure.

    5. PLPhilip Frankland Lee57:49

       And I lose weight even though I eat more.

    6. JRJoe Rogan57:51

       Yeah. Well, you know, your body has requirements when you're working out.

    7. PLPhilip Frankland Lee57:54

       Yeah.

    8. JRJoe Rogan57:54

       You know? It's just sustenance when you're not working out, but when you're working out, your body's like, "Get me some fucking protein, let's go."

    9. PLPhilip Frankland Lee58:01

       Yeah.

    10. JRJoe Rogan58:01

        'Cause you know, your, your body recognizes you're breaking down all this tissue and you're... I mean, that's the process of exercise, it's the breaking down, the building back up stronger. And it's like this ... You gotta do it right. Uh, t- so many people start off too hard, you know? They, like, when, when someone has not worked out at all before, I always say, "Listen, all you have to do is go walk around the block and do some push-ups and some jumping jacks, and then build from there. You don't have to go crazy."

    11. PLPhilip Frankland Lee58:26

        Yeah.

    12. JRJoe Rogan58:27

        Like, let your body get accustomed to this whole idea of exercise. Don't just go bananas 'cause you won't be able to sustain it and you'll get upset. And don't work out with a friend who goes to CrossFit.

    13. PLPhilip Frankland Lee58:37

        (laughs)

    14. JRJoe Rogan58:37

        Don't have some fucking fitness fanatic friend who's like, "Try to do this WOD! We're gonna do a WOD today!" And you, you're, you doing burpees and throwing fucking m- kettlebells over your head. You're not gonna do it.

    15. PLPhilip Frankland Lee58:49

        Yeah, no, that's, I-

    16. JRJoe Rogan58:50

        And you'll get hurt.

    17. PLPhilip Frankland Lee58:51

        I've pretty much just done, been running, really.

    18. JRJoe Rogan58:53

        That's great.

    19. PLPhilip Frankland Lee58:54

        Yeah, I'm, I'm up to doing about five miles a day every day.

    20. JRJoe Rogan58:57

        Nice.

    21. PLPhilip Frankland Lee58:58

        Yeah.

    22. JRJoe Rogan58:58

        That's great.

    23. PLPhilip Frankland Lee58:58

        I just get on, I hit the five mile an hour button, I do one hour.

    24. JRJoe Rogan59:01

        So, you weren't doing anything before?

    25. PLPhilip Frankland Lee59:05

        No, I worked so much.

    26. JRJoe Rogan59:07

        Mm-hmm.

    27. PLPhilip Frankland Lee59:07

        So, um, I was doing nothing. And I went from having such an active like, childhood of, of like, drumming seven days a week, um, and back then, I would, I'd need three double-doubles, you know, just to keep my weight on. And, um, to just working so much, and I'm on my feet all day, but I'm not sweating-

    28. JRJoe Rogan59:26

        Right.

    29. PLPhilip Frankland Lee59:26

        ... all day.

    30. JRJoe Rogan59:27

        You're not exerting-

Episode duration: 2:42:16