CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 6:33
Two Kansas exonerations and why public pressure works
Joe and Josh open by reflecting on two recent wins: charges dropped/exonerations that Josh says were helped materially by exposure on the podcast. Josh explains how prosecutors and police react when they know a large audience is watching, and why external scrutiny can break “tunnel vision.”
- •Rontores Washington and Albert Wilson are free; Josh credits the show’s spotlight as a major factor
- •Story of the DA greeting Josh with “Welcome to the armpit,” signaling officials were monitoring the podcast
- •How adversarial incentives (“trying to win”) distort truth-seeking in criminal cases
- •Public attention as leverage in cases like Pervis Payne, Julius Jones, Rodney Reed
- 6:33 – 8:11
The scale of wrongful-incarceration work and building capacity
Josh describes the overwhelming volume of requests he receives—mail from prisons nationwide—and the need for infrastructure. He outlines the Innocence Project ecosystem and why he took on a new leadership role to expand resources and case throughput.
- •Josh receives daily mail and potential case leads across the country
- •Difference between the Innocence Project and the broader Innocence Network
- •Need for triage, networks, and partners to handle volume
- •Josh becomes Executive Director of Cardozo’s new “Redemption Project”
- 8:11 – 9:40
Finding unlikely allies: Ike Perlmutter funds a new reform center
Josh explains how Marvel chairman Ike Perlmutter—politically different from Josh—became a key partner. Their alliance becomes a case study in finding common ground across ideology to fund reform work for a decade.
- •Perlmutter Center: long-term funding to scale forensic science education and reform work
- •Josh emphasizes coalition-building beyond party identity
- •Perlmutter’s epiphany: realizing how resources shield people from catastrophic outcomes
- •Why criminal justice reform can unify people who disagree on most politics
- 9:40 – 18:57
A surreal DNA frame-up leads to legal reform in Florida
Josh recounts the bizarre Florida dispute where Perlmutter’s wife’s DNA was allegedly “matched” to hate mail after a setup. The incident becomes an example of how DNA can be weaponized—and how policy change can follow from high-profile abuse.
- •DNA theft via a glass of water and staged “exhibits” to collect epithelial cells
- •Roy Black brings Josh in; Josh helps unravel the DNA setup and gets the case dismissed
- •Public record allegations involving an insurance company and attorneys
- •Josh testifies to change Florida law: DNA theft elevated from misdemeanor to felony
- 18:57 – 24:35
No-knock warrants and Amir Locke: policing as a human-rights issue
Josh uses the killing of Amir Locke to argue these are not partisan talking points but human-rights failures. The conversation expands to the origins and consequences of no-knock raids, and why communities of color are disproportionately harmed.
- •Amir Locke killed within seconds during a no-knock warrant while possessing a legal firearm
- •No-knock raids traced to 1980s drug-war logic: surprise, preserve evidence, prevent gun grabs
- •Examples beyond Locke: Breonna Taylor and other police killings affecting communities of color
- •How “a few seconds” can be the difference between life and death in raids
- 24:35 – 39:00
Why the George Floyd Policing Act failed and how politics derails reform
Joe and Josh break down the legislative process and why the George Floyd Policing Act stalled in the Senate. Josh argues ego, unions, constituency pressure, and partisan bundling prevent practical compromise even when reforms are broadly popular.
- •The bill aimed to curb no-knock warrants by conditioning funding
- •Passed the House; failed in the Senate by a significant vote gap
- •Debate over “extra provisions” and party-line messaging
- •Josh’s broader critique: Washington incentives and tribal politics block problem-solving
- 39:00 – 44:08
Wrongful conviction statistics and the Kansas case details behind the wins
Josh contextualizes wrongful convictions with sobering numbers, then details what made the Washington and Wilson cases so troubling. He describes how flawed timelines, misread cell-tower data, and racialized assumptions can drive prosecutions despite contrary evidence.
- •Estimated wrongful conviction rates and why even 1% is catastrophic
- •Disproportionate impact: Black Americans are a minority of the population but a large share of exonerations
- •Rontores Washington: evidence pointing to victim’s husband; timeline built on shaky cell data
- •Albert Wilson: retrial posture, refusal to plead to something he didn’t do, and why charges were ultimately dropped
- 44:08 – 49:12
Ripple effects: turning listeners into advocates, lawyers, and resources
Josh describes how the show creates second-order effects—new volunteers, pro bono lawyers, and institutional support. He shares emotional moments telling clients their cases were dropped and emphasizes practical ways listeners can help.
- •Example: Jordan Grossinger joins the fight, brings major firm resources to a California case
- •Pressure campaigns and “activism tailwinds” that build around highlighted cases
- •Josh’s emotional accounts of calling clients with life-changing news
- •Calls to action: write letters, serve on juries, stay engaged rather than opting out
- 49:12 – 1:03:53
Traffic stops, police training, and the challenge of rebuilding trust
The discussion shifts to policing mechanics: traffic stops, officer risk, and proposals to change enforcement. Joe argues for higher standards and continuous training, while Josh stresses avoiding blanket generalizations and addressing racial bias and lived experience.
- •Debate: whether police should handle traffic stops (armed/unarmed) and what risks exist
- •Joe’s view: rigorous, ongoing training akin to military readiness; service-minded recruitment
- •Josh’s concern: “driving while Black” and how to teach racial sensitivity
- •Root-cause framing: improving communities and opportunity to reduce crime upstream
- 1:03:53 – 1:11:08
From criminal justice to boxing: Brownsville, long shots, and career survival
A long detour into combat sports becomes a metaphor for structural disadvantage—why “just make it out” stories are misleading. Josh shares experiences managing fighters, the fragility of success, and how rare it is for talent to translate into a stable life.
- •Joe critiques bootstrap narratives using fighting/NBA/rap as unrealistic escape routes
- •Josh on Zab Judah’s gifts, limits, and health consequences of staying in too long
- •Curtis Stevens as an example of a near-breakthrough career and what happens afterward
- •Brief tangent: Shannon Briggs vs Rampage Jackson and the risks of crossover fights
- 1:11:08 – 1:25:09
Doping, testing systems, and the ‘Icarus’ lesson in institutional cheating
Joe and Josh compare UFC and boxing drug-testing regimes, how athletes exploit gaps, and why governance matters. Joe recommends the documentary ‘Icarus’ as a window into state-sponsored doping and the cat-and-mouse of detection technology.
- •Boxing’s inconsistent testing vs UFC’s centralized, mandatory program
- •Shakur Stevenson’s testing regimen and upcoming unification fight discussion
- •More Plates More Dates: interpreting hormone panels and plausible cheating indicators
- •‘Icarus’ and the Russian urine-swapping scheme at Sochi; retesting old samples over time
- 1:25:09 – 1:36:44
Clemency as redemption: Florida’s broken process and death-row cases
Josh reframes clemency as a moral and procedural safety valve when courts fail on technicalities. He details frustrating experiences with Florida’s clemency regime and spotlights cases he believes deserve hearings, not dismissal-by-default.
- •Clemency as forgiveness/redemption—not only innocence—and the need for public pressure
- •James Daly: claimed innocence, procedural denials, and Josh’s account of a confession
- •Josh’s meeting with Gov. Ron DeSantis: the ‘30 seconds’ encounter and lack of engagement
- •Nelson Serrano: flight-timeline theory, delayed flight issues, and Florida’s high death-row exoneration count
- 1:36:44 – 1:47:22
Melissa Lucio: false confessions, trauma, and stopping an execution
Josh highlights the imminent execution of Melissa Lucio and urges listeners to research and act via the Innocence Project. He explains the psychology of false confessions, why vulnerable people break under interrogation, and why the system must pause when doubt exists.
- •Melissa Lucio case overview and how to find official materials/petition
- •Trauma history and vulnerability during high-pressure interrogations
- •How coercive questioning and detail-feeding can produce unreliable admissions
- •Broader stat: many exonerated women were convicted of crimes that never occurred (accidents/misclassified events)
- 1:47:22 – 2:50:49
Presumption of innocence vs reality: juries, bias, and federal voir dire limits
Josh argues the presumption of innocence is more slogan than practice, citing studies showing most people assume guilt upon accusation. He then explains how jury selection works—especially the startling restrictions in federal court—and why those rules amplify wrongful convictions.
- •Research finding: large majorities assume guilt when someone is accused
- •Federal court reality: attorneys typically cannot question jurors directly; judges ‘rehabilitate’ bias
- •Ghislaine Maxwell juror controversy as an example of hidden bias and questionnaire failures
- •Josh’s practical approach in state court: normalize bias, invite honesty, then deselect for cause/peremptories
- 2:50:49 – 2:56:32
Closing: practical ways to help, where to learn more, and continuing quarterly updates
Josh and Joe end by emphasizing hope as a tangible resource—especially for incarcerated people—and by naming concrete next steps. Josh points listeners to the Innocence Project, his Instagram for case leads, and previews returning with more updates and cases.
- •Hope as a lifeline: Josh describes a new client weeping after getting pro bono help
- •Acknowledging the broader network: Innocence Project staff and reform-minded judges
- •Call to action: visit innocenceproject.org, learn the facts, sign petitions, contact governors
- •Josh shares contact info (@dubin.joshua) and mentions additional cases needing attention
