Joe Rogan Experience #1782 - Daniel Holzman

Narrator 0:00 (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Daniel Holzman 0:04 The Joe Rogan Experience.

Joe Rogan 0:06 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music)

Daniel Holzman 0:12 Hello, Daniel. Daniel Bismuth, ladies and gentlemen.

Joe Rogan 0:16 Food IQ.

Daniel Holzman 0:17 Big, new book, cookbook.

Joe Rogan 0:18 Congratulations. It's a great idea 'cause there are so many fucking questions that, uh, so many people have about, like, what is the way to do things? Like, what is better? Like, what, what, how, what is the difference between a cheap knife and an expensive knife? Do I need a expensive knife?

Daniel Holzman 0:32 So, if you're a chef, every- everybody, any- anybody that, that, that lives in the world of food, you just get, like, you get, you probably get pitched ideas all day long-

Joe Rogan 0:40 Oh, sure.

Daniel Holzman 0:41 ... 'cause you're an entertainment guy. Well, if you're a chef, you get the, like, "What's the best way to cook the chicken?"

Joe Rogan 0:46 Right.

Daniel Holzman 0:46 "What's the best way to salt this? What's the best way to... What kinda pan should I buy?"

Joe Rogan 0:50 So do you have a stack of these, like, "Here, read."

Daniel Holzman 0:52 So, that was the idea. I'm like, "I gotta profit off this."

Joe Rogan 0:54 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 0:55 I'm tired, I'm tired of answering these questions for free.

Joe Rogan 0:58 And, uh, this hat that you gave me is your LA pizzeria?

Daniel Holzman 1:01 Danny Boy's Pizza.

Joe Rogan 1:02 Which, which, by the way, LA fucking needs really good pizza.

Daniel Holzman 1:07 Good pizza.

Joe Rogan 1:07 'Cause, uh, pizza in LA is a lot of hit or miss.

Daniel Holzman 1:10 There are a lot of, there are a lot of pizzerias in LA.

Joe Rogan 1:12 And you're in downtown LA? That's a risky move.

Daniel Holzman 1:15 (laughs) Right. You don't even know risky moves.

Joe Rogan 1:17 When did you open?

Daniel Holzman 1:17 We're in a, we're in the, we're in the base, the, the, the ground floor of a giant building, like a giant, like, corporate building.

Joe Rogan 1:25 Oh.

Daniel Holzman 1:25 And, uh, it's just ghost town. It's like nobody was there.

Joe Rogan 1:29 Is anybody in the corporate building?

Daniel Holzman 1:30 For, for, for the last six months, it's been completely empty. Now, people are coming back to work, finally.

Joe Rogan 1:34 Mm.

Daniel Holzman 1:34 So, paying off.

Joe Rogan 1:36 When did, when did you-

Daniel Holzman 1:37 It was a long game.

Joe Rogan 1:37 When'd you open it?

Daniel Holzman 1:38 We opened six months ago.

Joe Rogan 1:39 Oh, no.

Daniel Holzman 1:40 Oh, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:41 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 1:41 And I was perfect timing, though, because, you know, like, COVID was-

Joe Rogan 1:45 There it is.

Daniel Holzman 1:45 Oh, look at that.

Joe Rogan 1:45 Danny Boy's Pizza.

Daniel Holzman 1:46 Okay. Oh, there's Adam Handsome guy.

Joe Rogan 1:48 Dude, that looks like a legit pizza place.

Daniel Holzman 1:50 Real pizzeria.

Joe Rogan 1:50 I want a fucking pizza right now.

Daniel Holzman 1:51 I know. I shoulda brought you pizza.

Joe Rogan 1:53 No, no, no, no. It wouldn't, wouldn't have been right.

Daniel Holzman 1:55 I shoulda brought you pizza.

Joe Rogan 1:55 I have to be there. Let's see the-

Daniel Holzman 1:56 You see the little bubbles on the crust? It's like a whole thing. I wanna talk to you.

Joe Rogan 1:59 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 1:59 How much time we got, like 15 minutes?

Joe Rogan 2:01 About as much time as you want, bro.

Daniel Holzman 2:01 All right, we'll talk about it. Oh, yeah. I like that picture.

Joe Rogan 2:03 That looks goddamn good. I'll tell

Joe Rogan 2:05 you what. I always wanna know, like, what is the purpose of wood-fired pizza? Is it, does it make the food taste better? Does it, does it impart, like, a smoky flavor to the w- to the pizza?

Daniel Holzman 2:13 It definitely imparts a smoky flavor. It's also hot, right? And, like, cooking over wood is special, so.

Joe Rogan 2:19 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 2:19 We, you know that.

Joe Rogan 2:20 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 2:20 Because you're, you're, like, a wood-fired cooking enthusiast.

Joe Rogan 2:23 I've gotten really into it lately.

Daniel Holzman 2:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:25 I got one of those Argentine-style grills.

Daniel Holzman 2:26 Are you grill, you're grilling or barbecuing also, or everything?

Joe Rogan 2:28 I do a lot of stuff. I'm, I'm obsessed with cooking meat in particular. But, uh, I got one of those Argentine, you know, crank up-

Daniel Holzman 2:35 Yeah, amazing.

Joe Rogan 2:36 Yeah, it's amazing. I love cooking over hardwood.

Daniel Holzman 2:39 Lemme... Wh- what company did you get it from?

Joe Rogan 2:41 (clicks tongue) I got it from SunTerra, SunTerra Pro, but, um, I'm having a whole outdoor system, uh, installed, like, you know, with brick and mortar and everything-

Daniel Holzman 2:50 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 2:50 ... by a company called Grill Works.

Daniel Holzman 2:52 Oh, yeah. Ben, Grill Works.

Joe Rogan 2:53 Yeah, Grill Works.

Daniel Holzman 2:53 Amazing.

Joe Rogan 2:54 They're the best, right? They did the, uh, that place that I love, Bazaar Meats, in Vegas.

Daniel Holzman 2:59 I think that they make some of the most stunningly beautiful grills out there. Um, and they work really, really well. Um, and r- and great restaurants use them.

Joe Rogan 3:07 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 3:07 Um, the only thing that I would say is, you know, th- there's one piece of the puzzle that I've learned recently from these guys at JNR. JNR make really great grills as well, phen- phenomenal grills. And they've got this firebrick that they line 'em with. You know, you know what I'm talking about?

Joe Rogan 3:24 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 3:24 Like... And the firebrick, it holds the heat in a way that's really interesting. Like, that, uh, I'm learning a lot about wood-fired cooking. Um, it's something. It's, uh, a little bit of an obsession. And I feel like if the, uh, the firebrick itself, if you can get that hot, you c- that's where the heat comes from, and then the wood becomes the flavor, if that makes sense.

Joe Rogan 3:45 Are you a reverse sear guy? Are you a, do you like to cook f- w- how do you like to do a steak? We should explain reverse sear for folks who don't know what cooking means.

Daniel Holzman 3:56 Yeah, I thi- can you re- explain reverse sear for me?

Joe Rogan 3:58 Sure. Th-

Daniel Holzman 3:58 You're cooking it slow, and then, and then hitting it at the end?

Joe Rogan 4:01 Yes. You're searing it off, you're cooking it slow till you get... I like to get it to an internal temperature of 100 degrees, and then I sear the shit outta the outside of it. Unless it's a thick steak. Then I like to bring it to about 120.

Daniel Holzman 4:12 And is this, like, a sous vide situation, where you're doing it-

Joe Rogan 4:14 No, no.

Daniel Holzman 4:14 How-

Joe Rogan 4:14 I just do it, uh, just, on the Argentine thing, I just have it cranked up way high. Um, so it's, uh, you know, I have one of those meater probes. I really like those meater probes. Um, you know, so it's a Bluetooth probe. I stick it into the meat, and it shows me always what temperature, and I have four of 'em, so I have four, like, if I'm cooking four different steaks, I can, I have 'em numbered. And it tells me, you know, where everything is at. And what I love about doing it that way is, 'cause since I've been cooking a lot over hardwood, is I'm getting all this smoke from the hardwood, so it's like smoky steak. It's fantastic. And then at the end, I sear the shit out

Joe Rogan 4:50 of it.

Daniel Holzman 4:50 I feel like, I feel like there are a lot of great ways, uh, to cook a steak.

Joe Rogan 4:55 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 4:56 And, you know, for a bigger piece of meat, that reverse sear, like, a real thick piece of meat, a reverse sear might be the best way. But for a thinner steak, um, I'm, maybe it's not necessary. Maybe I don't love it.

Joe Rogan 5:10 Yeah, I would agree with that.

Daniel Holzman 5:12 Um, but low and slow until you got almost, like, prime rib texture, and then searing the outside's phenomenal.

Joe Rogan 5:19 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 5:19 There's something about cooking when, that, that as a chef, it feels like cheating sometimes. Like, people uses sous vide. You know, you put the probe in there.

Joe Rogan 5:30 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 5:30 And it's like, it's al- it's not too easy, but it feels like you don't get the... Part of it is the, you know, like, I, um, I made this over fire. I just threw it on the fire.

Joe Rogan 5:40 Tricky.

Daniel Holzman 5:40 And you ever throw it right on the coals?

Joe Rogan 5:42 I have not.

Daniel Holzman 5:43 You've never done that?

Joe Rogan 5:44 I've seen people do it. Cowboy style, right?

Daniel Holzman 5:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:46 That's what they call it? Or caveman.

Daniel Holzman 5:46 I worked for, I worked for this French, French guy, Laurent Manjric, and he, um, he basically was like, we were, we were cooking these quails, uh, uh, and the quails were dripping fat into the fire, and the fire was flaming up, and it was, like, starting to burn the skin, and he's like, you know-... "put it in the fire, put it in the f-" And we're like, "Motherfucker, this guy is an idiot. Like you can put it in the fire? It's gonna burn. Like what's wrong with him? Like in France, heat doesn't work the same way?"

Joe Rogan 6:10 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 6:10 And he just, like, kicked the grill, knocked the quail into the fire, and it, the, the, you know, the, it smothered the fire because the oxygen wasn't there to, to, to, to burn. And it, like, made a perfect crispy skin, wasn't burnt at all, and I was like, "Oh my God, this is incredible. This guy's the, this guy's the, you know, he's the Yoda of whatever." So now I've gotten into that and people freak out. It's, I don't, it's definitely not the best way, in my opinion, to cook a steak. But if you wanna impress your friends, you got a wood fire, you know, a dry rub stops it from getting, like, gritty or whatever. You throw the steak right on the coals and people freak out. They think you're gonna ruin dinner and then it comes out perfectly crispy. It's cool. Cool.

Joe Rogan 6:51 Do

Joe Rogan 6:52 you have to... When you do it that way, do you have to brush off the ash or anything?

Daniel Holzman 6:57 So the f- so like, if you think about your coals burning, I usually take like a wet towel and I throw 'em down just to, just to, like, get any of the ash that's sitting on... What's that? It's that crazy light.

Joe Rogan 7:10 Oh, there's a shooting star in the ceiling.

Daniel Holzman 7:13 I thought that might have been like a-

Joe Rogan 7:14 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 7:14 ... a near miss from your comment. I've been listening-

Joe Rogan 7:16 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 7:16 ... to your podcast now I'm like freaking out, dude.

Joe Rogan 7:17 About comets?

Daniel Holzman 7:18 I'm like (laughs) I was like, "Any day."

Joe Rogan 7:20 Yeah, Randall Carlson. Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 7:20 Yeah, that guy, dude.

Joe Rogan 7:21 I'm... He freaks me out too.

Daniel Holzman 7:22 The last three weeks I'm like, "Man." I was like, I'm, what am I supposed to talk to you about? The Earth's about to end?

Joe Rogan 7:27 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 7:27 I'm like, "This is how you cook a steak in the meantime."

Joe Rogan 7:30 Well, in the meantime we have to eat.

Daniel Holzman 7:32 While you're at it.

Joe Rogan 7:33 That's important. Yeah, while you're at it. So, uh, the wet cloth, uh, takes some of the excess ash-

Daniel Holzman 7:39 Y-

Joe Rogan 7:39 ... that's sitting on the top of the coals?

Daniel Holzman 7:41 I think the two tricks are, first is I, I like to put a dry rub, like some sort of a spice rub on the outside of the steak, which-

Joe Rogan 7:47 What do you like to use?

Daniel Holzman 7:48 I like, um, depending if you're gonna, if you wanna go in an Italian direction, maybe fennel seed helps. I like coriander seed if you like maybe a little bit mo- more of a Middle Eastern kind of flavor, maybe coriander seed. Black pepper, if you just wanna do black pepper and salt like traditional barbecue 50/50 blend.

Joe Rogan 8:03 Mm-hmm. That's generally what I do.

Daniel Holzman 8:05 That works great. Just something to be a little bit gritty, because then w- if you do get a little ash, maybe you mistake it, mi- mistake the texture.

Joe Rogan 8:14 Mm, I see.

Daniel Holzman 8:15 You know what I mean?

Joe Rogan 8:16 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 8:16 And then, and then, and then I take a wet towel, I throw it on the... You know, so you burn your, burn your fire down until you got coals. Throw a wet towel on there, um, just to kind of get any ash, any errant ash off, then you put the steak right on there. And you'll see what happens, the flames will come up around the steak but the steak itself is protected. And you just gotta be patient. You set it there, you don't, don't flip it, don't mess with it, because as soon as you pick it up, what happens is that the fat that's rendering off the steak, as soon as it gets any oxygen, it's gonna ignite and it will burn the shit out of your steak.

Joe Rogan 8:49 Mm.

Daniel Holzman 8:50 It's a nightmare. So as long as you are patient, you don't pick it up and then you just flip it once, wait your time, and pull it off. It'll be beautifully golden brown. Try it.

Joe Rogan 8:59 I will try it. Um, someone explained to me that, um, steel and cast iron, eh, they're much better conductors of heat than coals. And that if you actually... You would think that laying something down over the coal will make it cook quicker, but that's not necessarily the case.

Daniel Holzman 9:15 I think that that's, that's true. I mean, I'm not like a scientist guy. Um, I'm not a scientist, Joe. But-

Joe Rogan 9:21 (laughs) Whenever you say, "I'm not a scientist guy," I believe you. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 9:24 I'm not a scientist guy. I'm not a chef guy. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:27 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 9:27 The, um... But yeah, steel obviously trans- transmits heat which is why, um, it cools down quickly as well, right? So if you've got-

Joe Rogan 9:35 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 9:35 ... a thin pan, you throw a steak in there, the heat gets sucked out right away.

Joe Rogan 9:39 Which, um, t- leads me to this. Do you prefer cast iron or do you prefer carbon steel?

Daniel Holzman 9:45 Joe, it's... For $35 you can get a-

Joe Rogan 9:47 It's in the book.

Daniel Holzman 9:47 ... Food IQ (laughs) guide.

Joe Rogan 9:48 It's in the book, ladies and gentlemen.

Daniel Holzman 9:49 Www.... Um, the, uh, the, the... So they're just different, right? So like cast iron's thicker, right? It's traditionally thicker. Um, I don't know what the specific heat of cast iron versus carbon steel is, so like that would be the scientific term for how long, how much energy it is gonna hold per, you know, joule of heat or whatever it is, the scientific term for it. But basically you're seeing like there's a certain amount of, of energy that's h- held in the pan that's gonna get transferred into the meat. And the more energy that's in there, the longer it's gonna stay hot even though you put a cold piece of meat on it.

Joe Rogan 10:27 Mm.

Daniel Holzman 10:27 So like you get a thick cast iron pan, you heat it up in the oven or whatever it is over the flame for... It might take 10 minutes to heat up, but then it stays hot when your steak goes in there. Steel pans tend to be a little thinner. So even if they're, even if they're, they're gonna hold a lot of energy, they don't, they, they're just not as much mass of hot steel, right? That make sense?

Joe Rogan 10:48 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 10:48 Does it-

Joe Rogan 10:49 That makes sense.

Daniel Holzman 10:49 I think they're pretty much the s- they're similar. Like I worked at a really fancy French fish restaurant and they used steel pans for searing the fish.

Joe Rogan 10:57 Hmm.

Daniel Holzman 10:57 And part of that is also that you can... Like the problem with the cast iron pan, if it's too hot or too cold you're kinda out of luck, like there's no heating it up fast.

Joe Rogan 11:05 Right.

Daniel Holzman 11:05 Whereas a steel pan, if it's a little thicker, it'll react to the flame below and transfer that heat maybe so you can heat it up quickly if it's a little hot, or, or cool it down.

Joe Rogan 11:14 So it's just a time thing, it's not a quality of cooking thing?

Daniel Holzman 11:18 I think it's a, um, a time thing and the type of thing you're trying to cook. Like a piece of fish maybe is six ounces and, um, you know, it, it only takes so much energy out of the pan to crisp up before it cools down. 'Cause you've, we've all done the thing where you throw a piece of chicken or something in a pan and it sticks, it gets like wet, and all the heat, the energy gets pulled out of the pan.

Joe Rogan 11:41 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 11:42 And like it'll crackle for a second. Mushrooms are a great example of this. Like they... You throw 'em and you're like, "I'm gonna sear these mushrooms." You throw 'em in and then it's just like a pool of water, like boiling. And that's because, you know, the heat in the pan gets sucked out and then there's not enough energy to boil off the moisture that's getting pulled out of the mushrooms and you get, you know, boiled mushrooms, which, which are delicious luckily. But boiled steak isn't as, isn't as great.

Joe Rogan 12:04 Yeah, boiled steak with, uh, boiled mushrooms-

Daniel Holzman 12:06 Yeah, not-

Joe Rogan 12:07 ... you're kind of fucking everything up.

Daniel Holzman 12:07 Not as great. So therefore, you know, if you get that thick cast iron pan-... you get it hot, you're, you're gonna stay hot throughout the cooking process, which is great. Steak, I want a nice crispy, you know, whatever it is, thick. But if I do a piece of chicken in there, maybe it burns.

Joe Rogan 12:23 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 12:24 Or maybe the skin's overly crispy. So-

Joe Rogan 12:26 Right.

Daniel Holzman 12:26 ... you know.

Joe Rogan 12:26 Do you have a specific way that you prefer to cook steak? Like, do you have a method? Like, if you, if Danny's got a go-to method, I give you a two-pound cowboy rib eye.

Daniel Holzman 12:38 (laughs) So that's what I w- I feel like wha- what happens is depends upon the piece of meat.

Joe Rogan 12:42 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 12:42 That's what so beautiful about, you know, a- a cow's got all these different pieces, and they're all need a little bit of different cooking style. I mean, when you cook a rib eye, you don't cook it the same way as you cook a New York steak. Um, maybe a rib eye's got ... You know, if you think about a rib eye and a New York steak are coming right off, like, the back strap, um, and a cow, I mean, you know where- where- from an anatomy perspective where it's coming from.

Joe Rogan 13:05 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 13:05 So it's coming from, like, that strip at your back and you've got, you know, if you feel your chest, you've got the ribs up tops and they wrap around to the back, and that's where the rib eye is. So, like, the New York steak is coming from below where there's no ribs attached, but it's really the same strip of meat, right? So it's very, very similar, just that the rib eye has all that internal, kind of like thicker pieces of fat in there. So maybe cooking that, that reverse sear where you're slowly heating it up and then letting that, that, m- that fat melt, because you don't want a cold hunk of ... Like, beef fat is h- ha- melts at a high temperature. It's got a really waxy texture. So you eat, like, cold beef fat in your steak, it's not gonna be great. Whereas a New York steak, I like it more on the rare side. And I wouldn't mind even a thick steak, you know, cooking it a little bit faster, having it maybe just be warm in the center.

Joe Rogan 13:58 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 13:58 So I think it really depends on the steak, man. Like ...

Joe Rogan 14:01 Do you, uh, tend to cook over fire or you, do you, do you sometimes cook a, a steak on, just on a cast iron if it's- if it's a thinner steak?

Daniel Holzman 14:09 So

Daniel Holzman 14:10 I grew up in New York City. Um, in the book, we talk a lot about cooking under the gr- under the broiler in your house.

Joe Rogan 14:18 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 14:19 I think it's, like, a lesser utilized piece of kitchen equipment. And I grew up in New York City where you didn't really have an outdoor space, you didn't have fire. So moving out to Los Angeles, being able to cook over the fire, it's like an obsession, you know. It's like all I wanna do 'cause you don't- you didn't get that. But you could definitely cook great steak in a, uh, you know, in a frying pan, for sure, and like, you know, classic French technique with you throw butter and herbs and garlic in there at the end. And maybe you do a pan roast where you cook it over the fire and you throw it in the oven. Like, that's a delicious way to cook a steak. The fire adds just that extra ... Although I- I always find this funny, you, when you grill or- or you barbecue, it's like you don't really taste the smoke yourself.

Joe Rogan 15:02 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 15:02 And then the next day, you go to eat the leftovers and it's like, "Holy shit, this thing smells like an ashtray." It's amazing how much smoke-

Joe Rogan 15:07 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 15:07 ... is on there.

Joe Rogan 15:08 Right.

Daniel Holzman 15:08 I feel like you're, you get, you get quickly desensitized to the smoke yourself.

Joe Rogan 15:12 'Cause you're just accustomed to the smell on it while you're cooking it?

Daniel Holzman 15:14 I mean, think about it, like, haven't you had that experience? Like, you cook barbecue or you cook some- some steak, you grill it, and then you eat it and it doesn't really taste smoky. But then if you taste someone else that's making the same thing, it really, you get that taste. I think when you ... Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:27 Well, that's a, I think that's a function of the olfactory senses 'cause your- your n- nose is meant to detect changes in smells. That's why people ... You ever drive through Pennsylvania, the farm country, it smells like ... Uh, my- my parents used to live in Harrisburg. When I- we used to go to visit them, I used to drive through farm country and it just smells like fucking death.

Daniel Holzman 15:47 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 15:47 It smells so bad. But the people that live there don't smell it at all 'cause your nose sort of detects change in the smell more than it detects smells-

Daniel Holzman 15:54 Yeah, the paper factory.

Joe Rogan 15:55 Right.

Daniel Holzman 15:55 You're like, "How could you ever live here?"

Joe Rogan 15:57 Right, right, right.

Daniel Holzman 15:58 I've never stayed long enough to get-

Joe Rogan 16:00 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 16:00 ... desensitized, but I hear.

Joe Rogan 16:01 Yeah. So maybe that's the same thing with, uh, cooking over the smoke.

Daniel Holzman 16:05 I think you're, I think s- I think you're probably right.

Joe Rogan 16:06 But I don't know, I t- I taste a difference. And when I got really into it, once I got this, uh, Argentine style grill and I started cooking over hardwood, I'm like m- I mean, um, regular steaks are great, but cooking a steak over fire, over just wood, there's something better. Like, coal is great, like charcoal, lump charcoal is great, but next level is actual wood.

Daniel Holzman 16:25 So I built, I don't know, over Christmas two years ago, I've always loved to weld, I've been like a welder, it's been fun for me.

Joe Rogan 16:33 I've seen your grills. They're fucking top-notch, man.

Daniel Holzman 16:35 Okay.

Joe Rogan 16:35 They're really dope.

Daniel Holzman 16:37 So two, uh, thank you. I'm really, really proud. This is, like, one of, you know, it's like one of the things I'm really proud of. I- I hired a welding instructor 'cause I was like, "I'm really terrible at this." I- I'm self-taught. I hired a welding instructor, I spent a whole day with him, and then I ordered 3,000 pounds of steel.

Joe Rogan 16:52 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 16:52 I called, I called this steel yard and then the guy's like, "Oh," like, you know, what, you know. I was like, "Oh, come pick it up, man. What are you talking about?" He's like, "What kind of truck you got?"

Joe Rogan 16:59 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 16:59 I was like, fu- ... I was just so, so shamed. I was like, "Man, I got a Chevy truck." Like, "What are you talking about? I can throw it in the back." And he's like-

Joe Rogan 17:05 No.

Daniel Holzman 17:06 ... like, "How many pounds is it rated for?" I was like, "Dude, (laughs) this guy's killing me." I was like, I was like, "I n- supposed to know this." So I looked up in the manual and I'm like, "Oh, I can't put that steel on my truck."

Joe Rogan 17:15 Yeah, you can't even drag it. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 17:16 No chance. So they, they delivered it to my house and they're like, you know, classic, like curbside only. I was like, "Curbside only?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:24 Yeah, well, they're fucking ... It's so big. They can't be responsible for moving that thing around, right?

Daniel Holzman 17:28 But for $20 he was respons- I was like, "Yeah, I'll give you $20 to carry this shit inside." He's like-

Joe Rogan 17:32 Really?

Daniel Holzman 17:32 Yes, 100%. 20, I gave him-

Joe Rogan 17:34 That's it?

Daniel Holzman 17:35 I might have given him a ... Yeah, I gave him $20 flat. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:37 You made a good deal, Danny. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 17:39 Not, not a dollar more. I helped, I helped. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 17:42 (laughs) But yeah, those, uh, that's the thing out here is offset smokers, you know. Um, Texas is famous for offset smokers and, and barbecue. And, uh, that's the next thing I'm gonna do. I'm gonna get an offset smoker and start grilling on the firebox and doing the reverse sear inside the ...

Daniel Holzman 18:01 So I came, like, you know, I came out here a day early for, 'cause ... Thank you. You sh- flew me out here. It's really, really kind and generous.

Joe Rogan 18:07 My pleasure.

Daniel Holzman 18:08 Excited to be out here. I'd been out to Austin one time before and it's like the barbecue is just legendary.

Joe Rogan 18:14 It's pretty awesome.

Daniel Holzman 18:15 And so I, I ... The last time I was here, I stood in line at the barbecue.... and I, I never liked brisket in my life. Like, I'm a Jew from New York. Like, brisket was like, my aunt made brisket, just-

Joe Rogan 18:26 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 18:26 ... I don't know if, like, we're supposed to love the brisket, but it just wasn't that great. I'm sorry. She, she doesn't listen to you.

Joe Rogan 18:32 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 18:32 I hope s-... I hope not.

Joe Rogan 18:33 I doubt she does.

Daniel Holzman 18:34 (laughs) I hope not. Although, you'd be surprised. You'd be surprised. People, a lot of people listen to you, so you just never know.

Joe Rogan 18:39 You never know.

Daniel Holzman 18:39 My aunt might be really angry at me right now. (laughs) She, um... And I, I bit into that brisket at Le Barbecue after two hours, and it was like a, it was like a life-changing experience. It was like fat held together by a, just a, a little bit of meat. And I never, I never had anything like that. It was so good.

Joe Rogan 18:55 They know what the fuck they're doing out here. And apparently, the history of it, as explained to me by my friend Adam Curry, is that it was German settlers that came i- here, like way back in the day. And they were, you know, they smoked meat. They smoked a lot of sausages and smoked a lot of meat, and something, b- you know, in this area... You know how like Italian food in the East Coast is very different than Italian food in Italy?

Daniel Holzman 19:17 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 19:18 Well, that's... The German food in Texas became very different than the, you know, the smoked meat that they would cook in Germany. And they developed, with all the spices and the sauces that they use out here and the rubs, and they just developed this amazing method with, you know, using those big old barrel smokers.

Daniel Holzman 19:36 Wow. I had no idea about that.

Joe Rogan 19:38 Yeah, that's what... That's the roo- the root of it all. I actually ate at the Salt Lick this past weekend, which is out in Driftwood.

Daniel Holzman 19:44 You went down there?

Joe Rogan 19:44 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 19:44 Yeah. That pla-

Joe Rogan 19:45 Have you been? It's amazing.

Daniel Holzman 19:48 It's just so cool.

Joe Rogan 19:49 That place is amazing. First of all, it's so big. When you go there, you can't believe how many people are eating there.

Daniel Holzman 19:55 Juggernaut. They're just making-

Joe Rogan 19:56 It's huge.

Daniel Holzman 19:56 ... so much... I mean, they're responsible for like wiping out half the cattle.

Joe Rogan 20:00 There's a lot of cows out here, unfortunately. But, uh, the fucking barbecue is sensational. Their burnt ends, oh my God, they're so good. Everything was good.

Daniel Holzman 20:08 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:08 They, they have bison ribs too, they were fantastic.

Daniel Holzman 20:11 I was talking to... My buddy moved out here, and, and he's like telling me, you know, "You gotta go here. This is my favorite place." And I'm a chef, so people get a little bit self-conscious when I prefer something they didn't like. And I'm like, "Guys, you gotta understand, like the barbecue out here, it's all at like a 99%." It's all so good. It's the best barbecue in the world. Better than anything else I've ever had. I-... This one just happens to be like 99 and a half percent.

Joe Rogan 20:34 Right.

Daniel Holzman 20:34 It's like a little bit better. So like I happen to prefer this one, but like don't feel bad, man. Yours is great too. It feels so good.

Joe Rogan 20:40 There's so many good spots out here. You can't go wrong with Le Barbecue though. They're amazing.

Daniel Holzman 20:43 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 20:44 I've, I had that years and years ago. It was fantastic.

Daniel Holzman 20:46 I, I had it yesterday again, so like-

Joe Rogan 20:47 Oh, oh, okay. Double up.

Daniel Holzman 20:48 So I, I went, I went to Terry, um-

Joe Rogan 20:51 Terry Black's?

Daniel Holzman 20:51 ... Terry Black's, you know, and, and, and I had a meal in the morning, and... 'Cause they open 30 minutes before everybody else.

Joe Rogan 20:58 Ah.

Daniel Holzman 20:58 They're a 24-hour operation. I was in the smoke... That's the other thing, you can go in, like go into their smokehouse-

Joe Rogan 21:03 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 21:03 ... and talk to them.

Joe Rogan 21:03 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 21:03 And the guy's like, you know, was like tweaking out. He's been-

Joe Rogan 21:06 Oh, show you the briskets, yeah.

Daniel Holzman 21:07 Yeah, he opened it up.

Joe Rogan 21:08 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 21:08 So cool, man. It was so cool.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 21:10 And then, um, and then I just bang, bang, I went right over to what's like called Wavens, or w- w- wa- uh, what's it called? It's like there are two that are the most, the most popular right now. It's called, uh...

Joe Rogan 21:21 Franklin?

Daniel Holzman 21:22 No, it's, uh, it's down the block from Franklin's. It's such a cool vibe. There's like a little truck outside, you know, drinking beers online.

Joe Rogan 21:29 Oh, okay.

Daniel Holzman 21:30 Family picnic- picnicking. You gotta help me out, bud. I need help.

Joe Rogan 21:34 Starts with a W?

Daniel Holzman 21:35 Yeah, it starts with a W. It's got a great name.

Joe Rogan 21:38 What Terry Black's does better-

Daniel Holzman 21:39 White-

Joe Rogan 21:39 ... than anybody is beef ribs. Their beef ribs-

Daniel Holzman 21:43 Oh.

Joe Rogan 21:43 ... are fucking insane. And you pick up the bone, and it just slides right off the beef rib. The, the beef rib rather slides off the bone.

Daniel Holzman 21:49 I've never been, I've never been to Franklin, you know, but I used his book. That's the book. When I wanna-

Joe Rogan 21:52 Franklin's awesome too. I've, I've had his brisket, it's insane.

Daniel Holzman 21:55 So when I wanna barbecue at home, I, I go... I just follow the steps from the Franklin Barbecue book, and it's like perfect.

Joe Rogan 22:02 Well, Aaron has a bunch of good view- videos online too. You can... He's got some YouTube tutorials. He shows like how to tend an offset grill and

Joe Rogan 22:11 the whole deal.

Daniel Holzman 22:11 He's, his rib recipe, like all those recipes, there are very few cookbooks like this, like where if you follow a recipe, you get the result li- like you would get at the restaurant, you know?

Joe Rogan 22:22 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 22:22 And it's not an easy recipe though. It's like, you know, wake up at 4:00 in the morning. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 22:25 Right. (laughs) Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 22:26 Right.

Joe Rogan 22:27 I mean, it's a 12-hour cook at least, right?

Daniel Holzman 22:29 So I didn't, I did a, um... I didn't do an offset. I did the, the firebox below. Um, and I did that because, you know... First of all, I spent, I spent like a month and a half designing this grill. I mean, obsessing online, all the different types of-

Joe Rogan 22:45 Can we see... Do you have, uh, images for Jamie?

Daniel Holzman 22:46 Yeah, yeah. I think I, I sent you like videos and pictures of this thing. I'm really-

Joe Rogan 22:49 Did you get it, Jamie? Or did, uh, I get it? I think I got it. I'll forward this to you.

Daniel Holzman 22:53 I can for-... I can forward it to you as well.

Joe Rogan 22:55 I'll do it, 'cause I got it right here. Give me one second. But go ahead.

Daniel Holzman 22:59 So basically, like, you know, I obsessed over... There are these amazing bread baking i- ovens in India that, that the way that they funnel the smoke from below allows them to be extremely, extremely even, you know. And I, I just... I don't know. I dorked out on it. It's like, you know, I get very excited about something, I wanna make the best of it. You're making it one time, it's 3,000 pounds, so you're not making it again. Um, and I ultimately screwed up like we all do. But, um, but I ended up saying, you know, "I want to have something that's a little more versatile than just a grill that I can only do one type of barbecue on."

Joe Rogan 23:36 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 23:37 So I put the fired below with the idea that, um, I can get it raging hot. I mean, I can get this thing up to like 800 degrees and I can do classic pizza, or I can do bread baking. And it's got stones that I can slide in and out of it. Um, so it's a little bit more versatile. Getting the heat to be consistent when the fire's below is a challenge, but you can do it. Pretty... You know, you can do it, you can get around that.

Joe Rogan 24:00 What is the benefit of doing that versus, um, an offset?

Daniel Holzman 24:04 Just because you can then... So I love to... Y- this is my latest kind of like obsession with this thing, is I like to get a fire going, cook on the grill right above the fire, and then close the door, so it's like a hybrid-... smoke roast, like a hotter, like barbec- like you're barbecuing at whatever it is, you know?

Joe Rogan 24:25 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 24:26 100 and ... Instead of like a, a 275, you're barbec- barbecuing at like 550 for a grilled steak. 'Cause you get that-

Joe Rogan 24:33 Right.

Daniel Holzman 24:33 ... intense smoke flavor, um, but you also get a more even like oven heat around the whole thing. I, that, that for me is really special.

Joe Rogan 24:42 And so, um, have you experimented with offsets and done it this way and you just decided that ...

Daniel Holzman 24:50 I, I've definitely bo- I've smoked meat on a offset, offset. Like you got me like real excited.

Joe Rogan 24:55 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 24:55 I also drank a coffee before this. I'm like, "I wanna talk all about this."

Joe Rogan 24:58 There's more coffee right here if you want some.

Daniel Holzman 24:59 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:00 Oh, and thank you very much for this whiskey. It looks awesome.

Daniel Holzman 25:02 This is, this is apple brandy from America's oldest distillery.

Joe Rogan 25:05 Oh, wow.

Daniel Holzman 25:06 It's from, in New Jersey.

Joe Rogan 25:07 America's oldest distillery is in New Jersey? How's that possible?

Daniel Holzman 25:10 So, this is this thing that I, I'm like ... I don't have anything to do with these guys. I don't know them. I just happen to like apple. It's like ... If you look at the pr- I left the price on the top. It's like-

Joe Rogan 25:18 I don't think it's true. I think Buffalo Trace is the oldest. Buffalo Trace was around before America.

Daniel Holzman 25:24 Buff-

Joe Rogan 25:24 They're, they're from 1773.

Daniel Holzman 25:26 Okay, so you're probably right. And, um-

Joe Rogan 25:28 Definitely, I think.

Guest (secondary, unidentified) 25:28 I'll check my wine.

Daniel Holzman 25:28 ... this might be the oldest distillery in, in New Jersey. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:31 Yeah, that makes more sense. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 25:34 (laughs) But I'm from ... I was born in New Jersey (laughs) and, um-

Joe Rogan 25:37 I was too.

Daniel Holzman 25:38 I just lo- ... Where were you born?

Joe Rogan 25:39 Newark.

Daniel Holzman 25:40 Newark, New Jersey?

Joe Rogan 25:41 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 25:41 Wow. What a, what a lovely town now.

Joe Rogan 25:43 It's a mess.

Daniel Holzman 25:43 It's moved, it's moved a lot. So you must be ... That's why you got tough. You had to get tough.

Joe Rogan 25:47 No, I got out when I was really young.

Daniel Holzman 25:48 Got out.

Joe Rogan 25:49 I, I moved out when I was seven, but I moved back when I was 24.

Daniel Holzman 25:53 Wow.

Joe Rogan 25:53 Yeah, I moved back for, uh, about six months 'cause my grandparents stayed there.

Daniel Holzman 25:58 One of the best, one of the greatest pizzerias in America is in, in Newark right now.

Joe Rogan 26:01 Oh, Newark-

Daniel Holzman 26:02 It's phenomenal.

Joe Rogan 26:02 ... has some amazing-

Daniel Holzman 26:03 Phenomenal food.

Joe Rogan 26:03 ... Italian food. Back in the day e- especially. They had incredible bread, like these bakeries where my grandparents would go walk down the street and buy bread.

Daniel Holzman 26:11 Wow.

Daniel Holzman 26:13 Well, either way-

Joe Rogan 26:13 It was a big Italian neighborhood.

Daniel Holzman 26:14 So, this is apple brandy, um, which applejack. So in, in France they call it Calvados, right? They make, make brandy outta apples.

Joe Rogan 26:21 Mm.

Daniel Holzman 26:21 It's very delicious. It tastes like reminiscent of the apples. You can taste it, but it's great with-

Joe Rogan 26:25 Should we have a little touch?

Daniel Holzman 26:26 Yeah, let's ta- let's ta-

Joe Rogan 26:27 A little touch.

Daniel Holzman 26:27 Let's have a taste, yeah.

Joe Rogan 26:28 Have a little touch.

Daniel Holzman 26:28 Um, although I, I talked to a buddy of mine that was on your show.

Joe Rogan 26:31 Who?

Daniel Holzman 26:31 And, uh-

Joe Rogan 26:32 Who's that?

Daniel Holzman 26:33 Uh, uh, Tiller Russell.

Joe Rogan 26:34 Oh, okay.

Daniel Holzman 26:35 And, um, and, uh, uh, incredible, incredible director. And I was like, "Hey man, you gotta give me some advice. You know, what can I, you know, what do I do?" He's like, "Just stay away from the, stay away from the booze."

Joe Rogan 26:44 (laughs) Why did-

Daniel Holzman 26:45 Stay ... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:45 He didn't get liquored up.

Daniel Holzman 26:46 He's like, "Stay away from the booze in whatever you do." He's like, "The CBD isn't just CBD."

Joe Rogan 26:50 It is.

Daniel Holzman 26:51 Stay away from it. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 26:51 That's not true. Tiller's lying.

Daniel Holzman 26:54 He's like, "Yo." He's like, "Just-"

Joe Rogan 26:56 It smells great.

Daniel Holzman 26:56 He's like, "You'll lose, you'll lose sight of ..."

Joe Rogan 26:58 Nah, you'll be fine, dude.

Daniel Holzman 27:00 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 27:00 You're a goddamn professional.

Daniel Holzman 27:01 I'm a chef, man. I've been drinking since-

Joe Rogan 27:02 Yeah, that's the thing about chefs, right? Cheers, sir.

Daniel Holzman 27:04 Thanks.

Joe Rogan 27:05 The thing about chefs is they, they fucking party hard.

Daniel Holzman 27:09 It's sometimes a little scary.

Joe Rogan 27:11 I didn't know that until I met Bourdain.

Daniel Holzman 27:13 Oh.

Joe Rogan 27:13 Oof. What's up, Jamie?

Guest (secondary, unidentified) 27:15 I was looking up the history, Joe. Uh, it's America's oldest distillery.

Daniel Holzman 27:20 Wow.

Joe Rogan 27:20 Um, what is the year?

Guest (secondary, unidentified) 27:21 It said 300 years.

Joe Rogan 27:23 What? 1698. Jesus Christ, so it is older.

Daniel Holzman 27:27 Wow.

Joe Rogan 27:27 It's older by almost 100 fucking years. That's insane.

Daniel Holzman 27:31 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:31 Wow. That's wild.

Daniel Holzman 27:33 I just don't wanna-

Joe Rogan 27:34 So maybe-

Daniel Holzman 27:34 ... disagree because I didn't actually know.

Joe Rogan 27:35 ... Buffalo Trace is the oldest whiskey distillery? Like what is this? What is this? This is brandy, right?

Guest (secondary, unidentified) 27:40 Yeah, it's a applejack, is what it's called, so.

Daniel Holzman 27:41 Applejack. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 27:42 Is there a difference? I know ...

Daniel Holzman 27:43 Yeah. Well, whiskey is made from, from, you know, uh, grain, and-

Joe Rogan 27:47 Right.

Daniel Holzman 27:47 ... apple brandy is made from fruit.

Joe Rogan 27:49 That's interesting. Made ... Huh. Wow.

Daniel Holzman 27:53 I just, I feel like it doesn't get its due. Um, I don't know anything about these guys. Like I'm worried. I was like, "Man, I'm gonna go on this show. I'm gonna like say ... And then it's gonna turn out these guys have some like sordid pasts. I'm gonna get in all kinds of trouble."

Joe Rogan 28:03 Eh.

Daniel Holzman 28:03 I- I'm ... All I'm saying is, I think it's delicious. I think that apple brandy is really delicious. And it's inexpensive. Like the bourbons these days are so great, but they're, they're pricey as hell, man.

Joe Rogan 28:14 Really old stuff is, for sure.

Daniel Holzman 28:15 And, uh, and this stuff is like ... This is their fanciest one. It's seven and a half years aged. And it's like-

Joe Rogan 28:21 It's really good.

Daniel Holzman 28:21 ... 40 bucks, man.

Joe Rogan 28:22 It's fucking really good.

Daniel Holzman 28:23 And it's cheap.

Guest (secondary, unidentified) 28:23 Just a distinction for Buffalo Trace, just for clarity.

Joe Rogan 28:25 Oh, oldest continually operating distillery. Oh, so that place must have like closed down then reopened.

Daniel Holzman 28:31 Yeah, that whole-

Joe Rogan 28:32 They took a day off.

Guest (secondary, unidentified) 28:32 Yeah, they fucked up. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 28:32 Well, maybe in the '30s, the '20s. It was Josephus Daniels that started that whole Prohibition thing.

Joe Rogan 28:38 Uh, you know, um, Buffalo Trace had an exemption during the whole Prohibition. They, they operated and made whiskey for medicinal purposes.

Daniel Holzman 28:47 Is that ... I heard you made a ... Is that your-

Joe Rogan 28:50 Yes, that's, uh ... Buffalo Trace and I worked together with, uh, Fight for the Forgotten. And they developed like a special blend that's just for me, like a special can- ... Like, they gave me a bunch of things to try and I chose one, and that's the one that they, they bottled up. So, we have a giant jug of it over there.

Daniel Holzman 29:07 I just, you know, um, uh, Buffalo Trace is one of my favorites. I love it.

Joe Rogan 29:09 They're awesome.

Daniel Holzman 29:10 And it's also fair- fairly priced, which is for me, it's important.

Joe Rogan 29:13 Yes.

Daniel Holzman 29:13 It's like, yo, man, a $1,000 bottle of whiskey, like who am I? I'm trying to drink it, you know?

Joe Rogan 29:16 The people that are behind it too, they're rock solid. They're rock solid

Joe Rogan 29:19 folks.

Daniel Holzman 29:19 But I've made ... I've done a l- you know, I've let ... I've been fortunate enough to get a lot of like ... Get to go to France and make wine or go here-

Joe Rogan 29:25 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 29:25 ... and make this, and it's very funny to be like, "Oh, and you're gonna make this." I'm like, "Well, this is paint by numbers, you know?"

Joe Rogan 29:29 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 29:29 I'm not making this. I'm not (laughs) making this whiskey, like let's be honest.

Joe Rogan 29:32 Making whiskey and making wine ... I mean, the people that wind up doing that, that is a fucking labor of love. I mean, 'cause the amount of time and effort involved. First of all, like here, like for example, this brandy, this is seven and a half years old.

Daniel Holzman 29:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 29:46 So f- this has to sit in a cask for seven and a half years before they bottle it.

Daniel Holzman 29:50 I mean, that's a great business model. You're like-

Joe Rogan 29:51 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 29:51 ... "Oh, I got this great idea, I just need 100 grand in cash."

Joe Rogan 29:54 And I'll see you in the next decade. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 29:55 In like 10 years (laughs) if it comes out right.

Joe Rogan 29:58 (laughs) That's the Buffalo Trace thing too, those are all eight years old, every one of 'em.

Daniel Holzman 30:01 But that's why all these young distilleries are starting with, um, gin.

Joe Rogan 30:04 Yes.

Daniel Holzman 30:04 Because they're like, "You know, we can put out our gin right away, that'll hit our, you know, hit our P&L and we can start-

Joe Rogan 30:09 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 30:09 ... "some cash flow while we're waiting for the stuff that needs to age."

Joe Rogan 30:12 Or tequila or vodka, right? Those are things that don't necessarily have to be a- does tequila have to be aged?

Daniel Holzman 30:17 Tequila doesn't, um, and vodka, vodka, a lot of those guys are just like, buying medical grade, you know, ethanol-

Joe Rogan 30:24 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 30:24 ... and putting a label on there, you know? And it's great. They, they really are. It's really phenom- you can do that. We do-

Joe Rogan 30:30 You know what I heard?

Daniel Holzman 30:30 You would be so ri- oh, you already are, but if you weren't already rich, we could do that together, we just, I'll get the booze, you put your label on there.

Joe Rogan 30:36 Uh, well, as long as it would b- it'd have to, it would have to be good and I'm not m- well, I actually do like vodka martinis, but I like 'em extra dirty so what I'm having is like a lot of olive juice in the liquor. I love those.

Daniel Holzman 30:48 I had-

Joe Rogan 30:48 'Cause I feel like I'm fucking James Bond when I drink 'em, you know what I'm saying?

Daniel Holzman 30:51 It, when you, when you start liking gin is when you gotta worry about yourself. That's like-

Joe Rogan 30:54 Why?

Daniel Holzman 30:55 'Cause it's like, if you like the flavor of gin, there's alcoholism at, at, at your like maybe-

Joe Rogan 30:59 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 30:59 ... just barely holding at bay. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:01 I don't know if I've ever had gin, I'm gonna be honest.

Daniel Holzman 31:03 You, you've had gin. You've had a gin and tonic, you've had a tan-

Joe Rogan 31:06 Yeah, no, you're right.

Daniel Holzman 31:06 You've had tank and tonic in your day, come on, you've been to that bar.

Joe Rogan 31:09 You're right. I have had a gin and tonic. Yes, I have. But I don't know if I've ever, I could not like tell you what gin tastes like. Like if you give me a gla- like a glass of vodka, I know what vodka t- whiskey obviously, I'm a big whiskey drinker.

Daniel Holzman 31:21 Gin is, um, gin tastes like juniper berries, right?

Joe Rogan 31:23 Oh.

Daniel Holzman 31:23 Juniper berries like j- jen- jeni- isn't it? Juniper berries, yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:27 Juniper berries, juniper is the thing that fucks everybody up in Austin.

Daniel Holzman 31:31 Really?

Joe Rogan 31:32 Yeah, that's the, uh, the allergy that everybody has they call cedar fever, it's actually juniper that they're allergic to. I don't know if it's in the cedar family or what the deal is, but that's what everybody tweaks about.

Daniel Holzman 31:42 I love the way I said that. I was like, "Oh, of course it tastes like juniper." You're like, "Oh yeah." 'Cause I know what juniper... I'm constantly tasting juniper.

Joe Rogan 31:47 That's the only reason why I know about junipers-

Daniel Holzman 31:50 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:50 ... is 'cause everybody fre- I don't get allergies to the shit out here, but some people fucking, they, like my wife gets it, and some people get it bad out here. This, it's weird this town.

Daniel Holzman 31:59 I was getting, you know, so I had like adult onset allergies and they got worse and worse and worse, so I started getting shots, and it's amazing, it's fixed me.

Joe Rogan 32:06 Really?

Daniel Holzman 32:06 I, I went to an allergist in LA, um...

Joe Rogan 32:08 What were you getting allergies for?

Daniel Holzman 32:10 I would, you know, it started out with, um, with like hayfevery normally stuff, and then it moved into stone fruit. I was eating cherries, uh, I may or may not have been, I w- I may or may not have been smoking marijuana at the time.

Joe Rogan 32:23 Oh.

Daniel Holzman 32:23 And I was eating these cherries and my mouth started to tingle and I was like, "I don't know what I did." I had to put-

Joe Rogan 32:28 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 32:28 (laughs) I was like, "This is not, this is not healthy."

Joe Rogan 32:30 Sto- you call 'em stone fruit?

Daniel Holzman 32:32 Stone fruit, like anything with a stone, stone pit, like a, like a cher- starts with cherries early in the season, then like, you know, uh, peaches-

Joe Rogan 32:39 Oh, okay.

Daniel Holzman 32:39 ... and plums have that hard, rock-hard pit, that's a stone fruit.

Joe Rogan 32:41 Would an avocado count as that too? 'Cause it's kind of a fruit.

Daniel Holzman 32:44 Man, you're so far ahead of me. I have no idea. It's a fruit, but I, it's, I don't know if that's a traditionally stone fruit. I don't think so.

Joe Rogan 32:49 I've been on this wacky diet, um, since January where mostly what I eat is meat. I just eat meat and fruit. I don't eat any bread, I don't eat any pasta, and I've only like cheated a couple of times. I had like a bowl of ramen once, and, and I had a cheeseburger with a bun on it.

Daniel Holzman 33:04 Is that... I mean, what was the goal?

Joe Rogan 33:07 The ide- well, the goal is for me, I, I don't know what it is about eating pasta and bread. First of all, I fucking love it. I love pizza, I love bre- I love a meatball sub, I love pasta, uh, but I bloat. I have, my fucking gut gets fat, it grows f- I, I gain weight. I, and it doesn't matter how hard I train.

Daniel Holzman 33:29 You look like an Eastern European man.

Joe Rogan 33:31 I look like me. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 33:32 Yeah, look like me. That, that-

Joe Rogan 33:33 But this all goes to my gut, like... But when I stop eating like that, it goes schhh, then I get a six pack again.

Daniel Holzman 33:39 It's called a beer, a beer belly.

Joe Rogan 33:40 Yeah. Um, but I feel better. Like my joints feel better when I eat like this. I have

Joe Rogan 33:46 more energy.

Daniel Holzman 33:47 My brother's been trying to get me to go gluten-free 'cause he's, you know, he's the same thing, he's like-

Joe Rogan 33:50 Bro, you own a fucking pizzeria. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 33:52 I know, it's not happening. It's not, although we do make a great gluten-free pizza, I gotta tell you.

Joe Rogan 33:55 Really?

Daniel Holzman 33:55 I'm really proud of it. With my-

Joe Rogan 33:57 What do you, who do you use for the, uh...

Daniel Holzman 33:58 So my buddy Vincent Rotolo's got this pizzeria called Good Pie in Vegas, and he's, he won the c-

Joe Rogan 34:03 I've heard of that place.

Daniel Holzman 34:03 ... the world championship for pizza. It's like a, you know, pizza fana- people get really into it and it's-

Joe Rogan 34:08 Really?

Daniel Holzman 34:09 ... really... and he-

Joe Rogan 34:09 Where is Good Pie? Where, where's it located?

Daniel Holzman 34:11 It's, uh, it's... Man, this is like that opportunity, he's gonna be...

Joe Rogan 34:14 Well, we'll find out. Jimmy will find out where it is.

Daniel Holzman 34:15 We gotta find out where it is.

Joe Rogan 34:15 Google it. It's probably in one of the casinos?

Daniel Holzman 34:17 There's actually a great barbecue place right across the street, one of the best barbecue places outside of, uh, Texas.

Guest (secondary, unidentified) 34:22 Oh. Stop.

Joe Rogan 34:23 What's that?

Guest (secondary, unidentified) 34:23 It's a standalone, I think it's downtown.

Joe Rogan 34:25 Oh, okay.

Daniel Holzman 34:25 Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's not, um...

Joe Rogan 34:26 Oh, in the whole downtown area?

Daniel Holzman 34:27 Yeah, that new like strip that's just being really popularized.

Joe Rogan 34:31 That's nice.

Daniel Holzman 34:31 It's cool now.

Joe Rogan 34:31 There it is.

Daniel Holzman 34:32 Good Pie.

Joe Rogan 34:32 Good Pie Pizza. Oh, that's a nice area, that's a fun area of Vegas.

Daniel Holzman 34:36 He grew up-

Joe Rogan 34:37 That's like a neighborhood.

Daniel Holzman 34:38 It's such a cool, uh, I've been out to Vegas hanging out with him 'cause he really helped me, you know, with this pizzeria, and I've been going out there, and I don't even go to the strip, I don't even go to the casinos, I'm like, I'm like, "I wanna visit." It's cool.

Joe Rogan 34:50 Mm. I fucking love a great pizza, I really do. But I had a couple-

Daniel Holzman 34:54 But he won with his gluten-free, that was his thing, so he, I went-

Joe Rogan 34:56 No shit?

Daniel Holzman 34:56 So he won this, this amazing, you know, Italian pizza competition with his gluten-free pizza and, uh...

Joe Rogan 35:01 So he won the overall with the gluten-free or did he win the gluten-free?

Daniel Holzman 35:05 I feel like there, I, there's somebody out there that should, should Google this, I don't know.

Joe Rogan 35:08 Yeah, because I have a hard time believing that gluten-free pizza beat the regular nasty for you pizza.

Daniel Holzman 35:15 (laughs) But he helped me out with my recipe and, and now I'm, you know, yeah, so I, I stole his recipe. Sorry, Vince.

Joe Rogan 35:20 Well that's nice of him, very nice of him. And so how, your place has been open for six months, h- how long have you been making pizza for? Did you, were you making it before then?

Daniel Holzman 35:28 I've, I've worked in restaurants and been the chef of restaurants that had pizza programs, so I've definitely been like-

Joe Rogan 35:34 Oh.

Daniel Holzman 35:34 ... pizza adjacent, but the thing about it is, until you live and die day in and day out and do it, and it's your responsibility to build it, you don't really... So this was like, "I wanna learn how to make pizza," about f-... four years, three years ago. I went out to Vegas, and I started asking Vincent questions. I got, like, four friends all named Vincent that are pizza, pizzaiolos.

Joe Rogan 35:53 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 35:54 All of them are named Vincent.

Joe Rogan 35:55 I got an uncle named Vincent. Don't worry about it. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 35:56 Yeah. He probably makes pizza too. I, um, the guy across the... I grew up on 83rd Street and First, and right across the street was, was, uh, was Gino's Pizza, and the guy that worked there? Vincent. Um, and, uh, I asked, I asked Vincent, I kept on asking these questions and he was like, "Yo, man. You gotta talk to this guy John Arena. This guy is the, like, he's the Pizzaiola." And, and, and any time I would start asking people, like, questions that got into, like, the science of pizza, and really you needed to know, always pointed back, "You gotta talk to this guy John Arena." So Vincent hooked me up, and he takes you on as an apprentice, like, he wants to make sure you're gonna respect the craft before he starts talking to you because so many chefs are, like, disrespect what goes into making pizza great. It's like-

Joe Rogan 36:41 Really? Why do you think that is?

Daniel Holzman 36:43 I think because we don't necessarily, um, appreciate how difficult it is, the science and the art and the craft that goes into it. And we think like, "Yo, man. I make a great chicken. I can make a great this. I got, you know, I got my chef. I can do that, no problem." Like, that's just pizza.

Joe Rogan 37:00 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 37:01 And then you start making pizza and you realize, like, no. It's not just pizza. It's a... If you wanna make great pizza, it's a, it's a specialty. It's, uh, you have to be a great baker, and then it just, it's really, really deserves a lot of respect, 'cause it's special.

Joe Rogan 37:13 I would just say that, that it, it would be, uh, I was gonna say that, rather, that would be akin to baking, baking or being a great pastry chef or something like that.

Daniel Holzman 37:20 So, the, I mean, this guy John Arena, he's the guy that, that could, uh, can, can explain and knows the history of it, but, you know, the baker was the brewmaster, was the pizzaiolo in the town when, you know, before that were s- those were separate jobs. Like, it is very much being a baker.

Joe Rogan 37:37 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 37:37 Um, and it's, that's a whole amazing art form, you know? And there's incredible, uh, advances happening in the world of baking now, even though it's, like, one of the oldest things. People have been baking bread for thousands and thousands of years. In the last 20 years, people have changed the whole game. It's amazing what's going on, so.

Joe Rogan 37:54 Well, it's just, it, uh, cooking is so exciting now. I think what's going on is, uh, you know, you have this incredible history of cooking, right? But now what you have is lot of people sharing stuff online, and, uh, I follow probably, like, 30 or 40 cooks and chefs online and, you know, there's a bunch of pages that have, like, these very quickly edited-

Daniel Holzman 38:15 Mm-hmm.

Joe Rogan 38:16 ... one mi- almost like a one-minute cooking show of how to put together a great meal or a great dish, and it's, it's, it's exciting, and I think it's because of the cooking shows on television and the cooking shows on the internet and all these small little shows that are on TikTok, and, uh, for me, it's Instagram that I watch. It's real exciting because it's making people enthusiastic about cooking, and it's, I think it's introducing the option of becoming a cook, becoming a chef, to a lot of people out there.

Daniel Holzman 38:45 I feel like today more people wanna cook than have ever before, and fewer people know how to cook than ever before. Like fi-

Joe Rogan 38:53 Really?

Daniel Holzman 38:54 ... in the '50s, you know, um, folks stopped cooking, you know, between microwave cooking and more and more people entering the workforce, few, less time. Advertising really made it feel like, you know, you should be guilty for, for taking time to cook, and you should really just, you know, microwave your dinner. Fast food restaurants came into the equation and people started trading home-cooked meals for ordering in and, and going out. And so few, you know, cooking is hand, handed down-

Joe Rogan 39:21 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 39:21 ... from generation to generation. It's a, it's a hands-on learning experience. And so if your parents or the folks that you would learn from don't know how to cook, you're not gonna learn how to cook. And so when that stopped in the 1950s, you know, really after World War, War II, um, uh, we lost, kinda, three generations of institutional knowledge, and when you lose that knowledge, there's no one to teach you how to cook. And then all of a sudden the internet comes around, it's like, "Oh. Here's a new opportunity to spread the, you know, communicate th- these, these, these techniques and this learning." And so more people are now interested and they're, they're starting to learn. They're looking for resources. It's cool. That was, I mean, like, uh, that was the, the whole idea of this cookbook was, like, there's so much bullshit out there. So many people wanna make their jobs seem interesting and over-complicate stuff, and so many people are intimidated because you start learning how to cook and it's like, you know, if I'm not, if it's not great, it's garbage.

Joe Rogan 40:17 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 40:17 And then you, if you really break it down though, it's pretty straightforward and simple. Like, a f- you learn a few techniques and it goes so far, and it's, like, a great, you give yourself the greatest gift you could and your family the greatest gift you can ever give. Like, through the pandemic, you know, I felt bad. I felt bad. My buddy, my buddy, Daniel Sharp, is moving... (laughs) He got stuck with me. He was supposed to go on a, he was like on a, on a three week, three-month Asia vacation and he was like, "Can I just, like, crash with you for a couple weeks?" And I was like, his itinerary just got shut down, so he got stuck with me. He's a chef. He's one of my best friends, and we were just eating it up. Like, I mean, out doing, we would go to the supermarket, but like, "Yo. You can only go to the supermarket once, once a week, you know, once every two weeks. We're gonna get enough food." And like three days later we're like, "All right. We ate all that."

Joe Rogan 41:01 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 41:02 Go back. (laughs) Let's start again. I mean, we were just cooking amazing, amazing meals. And then everybody's angry at us. They're like, "Yo, man. We're, (laughs) you know, we're eating, like, the last box of macaroni and cheese that we got at, like..." (laughs) I'm like, "I'm so sorry, guys. I'm eating, like, you know."

Joe Rogan 41:16 Were they angry because you were showing it to them or-

Daniel Holzman 41:19 Oh, yeah. My Instagram was like-

Joe Rogan 41:21 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 41:21 (laughs) I was like, "Look at this, these lobsters that we just, you know, we just did, like, fried Chinese lobster with black bean sauce. It's incredible."

Joe Rogan 41:27 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 41:28 And I was writing this, so like, the cookbook was a pandemic project where it was like, so I was testing out the recipes and writing the recipes for the book, so it was like, we were, we were, we had to cook, you know, all, the whole time. It was really fun. It was a fun time. I mean, it was, it was a, I don't wanna say that. It was a difficult time for a lot of people and it was ver- it was a v- I, I ate well.

Joe Rogan 41:48 Do you think that people starting out, like, if you've really never had any experience cooking, do you think that a culinary school or some sort of a class is the way to go, or do you think you should just start simply and slow from a book or an online tutorial?

Daniel Holzman 42:02 I was talking to my buddy, Kyle. Kyle... (exhales) man, so Kyle came down here with me. I was like, "Yo, I'm going to Austin. I'm gonna be there a day early. I'm gonna be eating bar- barbecue. You should come down here and let's, let's, let's have some fun." And he came down. He's got a couple of restaurants up in San Francisco, Bay area. He's, he's an amazing chef and he's a great travel buddy. And, um, I was, just yesterday I was like, "Yo, man, well talk to me about culinary school. Like, what do you think? What's our opinion about that, like..." Because I went to culinary school. I dropped out. I didn't make it through. Um, he went to culinary school. If you wanna be a chef, I don't think culinary school is necessarily the best route, if you wanna be a chef of an independent restaurant. If you wanna work as a, a... If you wanna be a home cook, there's a lot to learn quickly from culinary school. I think that's good, like a, as a, as a non-matriculated kind of class-by-class, there's a great, that's a great opportunity. Taking some cooking classes, as a home cook, you learn a lot. If you wanna be a chef, it's a hands-on experience in the, in the restaurant that's gonna get you there. But I think there's a lot, there's... If... I, I think there's definitely a use for taking cooking classes as a home cook.

Joe Rogan 43:09 You're not the only one who's told me this. This is, that, that sentiment has been echoed by a lot of great chefs that I've talked to. Said the same thing.

Daniel Holzman 43:17 My problem is also though, you know, for a cer-... There are a lot of culinary jobs out there. And like, you know, think about all the hotels and all the cruise ships and all the corporate cafeterias. There are so many culinary jobs out there, and if that's a goal, if you wanna work in one of those jobs, then culinary school can be a great road to give you the, the, the needed, you know... That can be a great route to get one of those jobs. If you wanna have a standalone restaurant, maybe something more avant-garde, maybe something where you're, where you're a little more creative, then culin- culinary school might not get you there, and it, and it can put you at a disadvantage, because you get, you know, unless you... Like, I got... I was very lucky, I got a full scholarship. The James Beard Foundation gave me a full scholarship to go to culinary school, and so it, it worked out for me. But for so many folks, like you go to culinary school, you come out with big debt, and then you can't afford to take a job at a restaurant that's paying minimum wage, um, because you need to pay back that loan.

Joe Rogan 44:16 Mm. So if you get a job at a restaurant, the restaurant will essentially give you a task, and then if you show effort and show that you have work ethic and show that you're really interested, they'll slowly train you to learn new techniques and cook things?

Daniel Holzman 44:33 I guess. And, and this is, this gets into, like, a whole nother issue that's going on right now with the labor laws and how they've really kind of changed the way that people in restaurants learn how to cook and cooks come up in the business. So, I kind of came up at, at, in the, as the last of the, in the, of the world where the apprentice system was still kind of a piece of the puzzle, if that makes sense.

Joe Rogan 44:59 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 44:59 So I went and worked at Le Bernardin, super fancy French restaurant. I was like, you know, 15 years old, 14 years old.

Joe Rogan 45:07 Really?

Daniel Holzman 45:07 And I, you know, I... 'Cause chef was like, "I can't pay you. You know you're not legal to work, but you can come and work for free."

Joe Rogan 45:13 So did you always know-

Daniel Holzman 45:14 And-

Joe Rogan 45:14 ... that you wanted to be a chef?

Daniel Holzman 45:17 I, I, I love to cook, um, and-

Joe Rogan 45:19 When did you start?

Daniel Holzman 45:20 I started when I was very young. I got pictures of cooking with my mom, um, very, very young. And she, she kind of supported me in that. So we, we had, you know, like, making pasta in the kitchen and hanging the noodles off the back of chairs and having, you know... She was very, very supportive of, of my interest. When I was 13 years old, I got a job delivering pizza at the, uh, pizzeria across the street, Gino's Pizza, Vincent. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 45:48 How'd you deliver them? On a bike?

Daniel Holzman 45:49 I b- I wa- walking, and I had a harmonica, I would play the harmonica. I thought I was the coolest kid in the world.

Joe Rogan 45:54 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 45:55 It was, it was not cool. Meanwhile, my partner Michael, who I ended up opening a restaurant with, Michael, Michael's, you know, who you... Oh, we should talk about him too. This guy's... He's, he's a very cool guy, very inspirational. He was, uh, he was a cool kid. He was delivering on rollerblades-

Joe Rogan 46:09 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 46:09 ... making twice the tips, quick. (laughs) He's getting around, you know. Um, but delivering pizzas, and then I was working at this Mexican restaurant, Samalita's, I was delivering Mexican food and I was like, "Man, these guys in the kitchen are so cool," like, got tattoos and the fire, and like, everybody says, "Yes, chef," and you know, I just... I was really attracted to the kitchen, and, um, I started, I started spending time in the kitchen. And, um, I was working at this vegan restaurant. Mike, Mike was delivering. He was... Yeah. Uh, so he was delivering vegan food and other things on his rollerblades.

Joe Rogan 46:45 Other things?

Daniel Holzman 46:45 He was like 14 years old. Yeah. He was like a-

Joe Rogan 46:46 Selling weed.

Daniel Holzman 46:47 ... green machine, selling weed. He was like-

Joe Rogan 46:49 Son of a bitch.

Daniel Holzman 46:49 He just order-

Joe Rogan 46:50 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 46:50 ... he order like

Daniel Holzman 46:52 your, your vegan, vegan seven-layer dip and you get a bag of, bag of... At the time it was like, I don't know, it was like the first time that they had, uh, chronic, they called it chronic.

Joe Rogan 47:01 Mm.

Daniel Holzman 47:02 It's like fresh and green. Um, and, uh, m- this, this... I was in love with this, this girl. She was, she was amazing. My best friend at the time. And her father was the maître d' of this fancy French restaurant. He came in and I was working in the kitchen, because whenever I wasn't delivering, I was in the kitchen. I loved it. You know, I was like learning everything I could. And the chef had just cut herself, you know, she'd like just cut herself. And she had to leave and they were like, "We gotta close the restaurant." And, uh, and I was like, "Oh, like, there's like two more dishes to go out." And he came in, he was like... I was the only guy in the kitchen. He was like, "Is your restaurants full?" He's like, "14-year-old kid, friend of his daughter's," he's like, "Oh, you know, you're, you're the chef here?" And I'm like, "Yeah." (laughs) Like, "Absolutely." He's like, "You should come. I work at this, you know, fancy French restaurant. You should meet the chef." And, uh, he got me an interview and I went and worked there. So like 15, 14 years old, I go and work, go to this fancy French restaurant. I had no idea, after school. And the chef meets me and he's like, he's late.He's like, "You're lucky because I was taking a haircut, because otherwise you would be fired already." And I was like, "Oh my God, I have no idea what's going on." And, uh, he's like, "But you can come and you can watch. Like, you can't touch anything. You can watch. After school on Wednesdays, you come, and on weekends." I started working there and it was fun, man. It was super cool.

Joe Rogan 48:22 What kind of tasks did they have you do initially?

Daniel Holzman 48:24 The first job was I got to bring the fish from the refrigerator to the guy that was gonna cook the fish, like I could carry it across the kitchen.

Joe Rogan 48:30 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 48:31 And then I got to clean car- calamari. My dad called me the Calamari Kid. He was like, he had a whole s- whole, whole song for me. I was like the, the Squid Kid.

Joe Rogan 48:40 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 48:41 Um, uh, I remember one time I went in and I was like, the chef was like, "You know, the calamari, some of it has gone bad. I need you to smell every piece." And I walked in and he's like- I was like, "Chef, I s- I smelled every piece of calamari." He's like, "I know. Look in the mirror." And I (laughs) was like, my nose was all black from, like, the squid. I was like, "Oh, man." And then, uh, and then he had me clean lobsters. It was the first time I ever cried. You know, you gotta, like, rip these things apart, so barbaric. And I was like, "I'm not doing that." I, like, start crying. He's like, "You can rip them apart or you're gonna be fired." I was like, "Oh my God." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:11 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 49:11 I was fucking crying.

Joe Rogan 49:12 And you weren't even making any money.

Daniel Holzman 49:13 No, I was like 14 years old crying over these lobsters, like apologizing to everyone. Actually, there was a guy, Manuel, he set one free. He took a f- he took a lobster, he was like, "I'm gonna set all those from here."

Joe Rogan 49:23 He threw it in the ocean?

Daniel Holzman 49:24 He put it, he put it i- I think he put it in the East River. We were a little drunk. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 49:28 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 49:28 It might've made it. It was brackish. It might've made it to the ocean.

Joe Rogan 49:31 Uh-huh.

Daniel Holzman 49:33 (laughs) Um, and, uh, and then, and then I got to open oysters. I was the oyster guy for, for a long time. And then eventually I made it up to hot app station, which was like, you know, it was like a big deal and ... But I was a tr- I, I, I had a bad attitude, man. I had a bad attitude. I met this guy Roy Choi. He was, he was the, he -- Roy Choi's an amazing chef from LA. He's got incredible, he's got a, he's, he's a legend, legendary character now, but he's, um, still, still a dear friend. He, he, um, he was on the station with me and he describes it. He's just like, "This little kid, like, you know, I came in from culinary school, I just wanted to learn." (laughs) And this kid was just such an asshole.

Joe Rogan 50:07 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 50:07 Like, I was just like, "You're an idiot. You have no idea what you're doing. Like, stand there, don't touch anything, watch. Don't talk." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:13 That's how you talked to him?

Daniel Holzman 50:14 (laughs) Yeah, I was just like-

Joe Rogan 50:14 And how old were you at the time?

Daniel Holzman 50:15 Like 15 years old. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:16 Oh, that's hilarious.

Daniel Holzman 50:17 I was this guy, like, punched in the face. I got punched in the face a few times.

Joe Rogan 50:20 Did you?

Daniel Holzman 50:20 I, uh, a few times. But I, but I, I, I laugh because, you know, we, I, I wrestle. And, um, I don't wrestle, I tr- I, I wrestle. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 50:28 No, you do jujitsu.

Daniel Holzman 50:28 I do jujitsu, and-

Joe Rogan 50:29 Well, you're a blackbelt under Renzo.

Daniel Holzman 50:31 I'm ... I have, I, I'm a blackbelt under Renzo. And, um, and I laugh because, you know, everybody's got, like, the one story or the one time that recently they got into some fight. And like, I've been in, like, 20 fights and I've never won a fight in my life. I just got beat up every time. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:45 Really?

Daniel Holzman 50:45 'Cause I, 'cause I was always a scrawny kid.

Joe Rogan 50:47 Oh, back in the day.

Daniel Holzman 50:47 And I would always get tol- I would, I would, you know, I haven't been in a fight in, like, 20 years.

Joe Rogan 50:52 Is that why you started training?

Daniel Holzman 50:54 I w- I started training 'cause I got to San Francisco and, uh, I was scared. And I had a chip on my shoulder, I recognize. And I really, I was like 20 years old, 21 years old. I was starting to work in kitchens in San Francisco. And I was like, "Man, like, I'm supposed to be from New York. Like, I'm supposed to be tough."

Joe Rogan 51:09 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 51:09 "And these guys are like ... I'm scared. It's not fair." Um-

Joe Rogan 51:13 What were you scared of?

Daniel Holzman 51:14 Uh, you know, you're walking home. I was wor- living in the Tenderloin and, and-

Joe Rogan 51:17 Oh.

Daniel Holzman 51:17 ... you know, I was like, "I'm gonna get mugged and ..."

Joe Rogan 51:19 Tenderloin's rough.

Daniel Holzman 51:20 It's a rough neighborhood.

Joe Rogan 51:21 Have you been there lately?

Daniel Holzman 51:22 Is it nice?

Joe Rogan 51:23 You might, you might step in human shit on the way home.

Daniel Holzman 51:25 (laughs) Yeah, well, have you been to my neighborhood?

Joe Rogan 51:27 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 51:28 Stop, stop by my house. Um, uh, and, uh, yeah, man, I just needed that ... I went to, I went to Half Gracie Jujitsu and it was-

Joe Rogan 51:37 Oh, that's a great place to go.

Daniel Holzman 51:38 This guy Kurt was like ... I was like, you know, "I'm scared. I really want some confidence but I don't wanna have to do any-"

Joe Rogan 51:44 Kurt?

Daniel Holzman 51:44 Kurt Oceanda.

Joe Rogan 51:45 Oceanda.

Daniel Holzman 51:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 51:45 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 51:46 Crazy character.

Joe Rogan 51:47 Oh, he's a wild dude.

Daniel Holzman 51:48 Amazing character. I learned, I mean, so basically-

Joe Rogan 51:51 Didn't, does he ... Is he okay? Didn't he just have some, uh, serious health problems?

Daniel Holzman 51:56 He and ... I don't ... I have not kept up since he and Half had their, had their, like, little issues, so I'm not really sure what's gone on there.

Joe Rogan 52:03 Hmm.

Daniel Holzman 52:03 Not at all. Um-

Joe Rogan 52:04 I follow him on Instagram and he was hospitalized for something.

Daniel Holzman 52:07 Yeah, I'm n- I'm not sure. He definitely, he definitely pushes really, really hard in his life, so you know-

Joe Rogan 52:12 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 52:12 He's now a young man and he pushed really hard.

Joe Rogan 52:14 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 52:15 He was like ... Every now and then, you're like, there's somebody that you, you vote most, like, you, you least want to get in fight with that guy. (laughs) I'm like, Kurt would just eat my heart out.

Joe Rogan 52:24 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 52:24 Like, it doesn't matter how good you are or how much better you are, I'm like, "That guy is gonna beat me to, 'cause he's gonna raise the level of violence. He's gonna eat my heart. I'm scared."

Joe Rogan 52:31 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 52:31 You know? And he's gonna have a smile on his face.

Joe Rogan 52:33 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 52:33 He's a scary guy. And, and an amazing, wonderful character. (laughs) So I went in there and, um, he put me together with this girl that had been training for like two years and he was like, "You know, give it a try, see what you think." And like 30 seconds later I was, like, twisted over, you know, yelling uncle. And I was like, he was like, "Yeah, she's been training for two years." I was like, "If I, if I'm here for two years, am I gonna be that good?" He's like, "Yeah. Like, if you give it two years and you invest that time, you'll be able to feel more confident, like you can, you know, not worry about getting beat up." And I did. And I really fell in love with it. And two years later, she's like ... I mean, she, I think she s- subsequently transitioned, but was, is like a world champion. So I was never gonna be as good as her. He was, he was lying to me. (laughs) She's really great. But, uh, what a great experience.

Joe Rogan 53:21 Subsequently transitioned?

Daniel Holzman 53:22 Yeah, I think she's a man now.

Joe Rogan 53:24 Oh.

Daniel Holzman 53:25 Um, but she, um-

Joe Rogan 53:25 Really transitioned.

Daniel Holzman 53:26 Yeah, she transitioned, but, but she could kick my ass as a girl and she could still kick my ass as a, as a guy. So either way, she's badass. Tough.

Joe Rogan 53:35 You meet a lot of those characters in jujitsu, like people that you would, uh, see on the street and think nothing of, and they're killers.

Daniel Holzman 53:41 There's a guy named Jeff Noodles at, um, at, uh, at Renzo Gracie in, in, in New York and he's like ... He's just such a nice guy and he's not a big man at all. And he would just kill you. He would just kill anybody, you know?

Joe Rogan 53:55 There's a lot of those guys out there.It's interesting. I, I call them nerd assassins.

Daniel Holzman 53:59 Yeah. I mean, I kind of feel a little bit like that guy because I'm definitely not a, you know, I'm not an intimidating person.

Joe Rogan 54:04 Right.

Daniel Holzman 54:04 Especially now that I'm, like, 20 pounds of pizza overweight and... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:06 Yeah, you were telling me, uh, over the last, how long? Six months?

Daniel Holzman 54:09 Six months.

Joe Rogan 54:09 You gained 20, since you opened up the pizza place?

Daniel Holzman 54:11 (laughs) I went from 182 to, maybe I'm a little less than that. I went from 182 to, like, I'm, like, 197 now, so 15 pounds.

Joe Rogan 54:16 That's what I'm saying about pizza, man.

Daniel Holzman 54:18 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 54:18 That's why I don't fuck with bread anymore.

Daniel Holzman 54:20 Well, I mean, I'm like seven days a week on pizza. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 54:22 (laughs) That's crazy.

Daniel Holzman 54:23 It's not a casual-

Joe Rogan 54:24 Yeah. You gotta abstain.

Daniel Holzman 54:26 Yeah. I'm like-

Joe Rogan 54:27 Pizza's a once-a-week thing, I think. It's a delicious... It's fantastic. I mean, if you, if you could do it every day, but do you know who Mikey Musumeci is?

Daniel Holzman 54:36 No, I would not.

Joe Rogan 54:37 He's a world-class jiu-jitsu practitioner who eats only pizza.

Daniel Holzman 54:42 And?

Joe Rogan 54:42 He makes his own pizza.

Daniel Holzman 54:43 Is he... He's not the... He's... 'Cause there's a pizza jiu-jitsu guy from New York. There's a guy whose Instagram is Pizza Jiu-Jitsu or Pizza Jiu-Jitsu.

Joe Rogan 54:49 No, no, this is a different kid. He's, uh, he's a very young guy and he lives in Vegas and he's top of the food chain. Gi and no-gi. He's phenomenal. That's Mikey.

Daniel Holzman 54:58 Wow.

Joe Rogan 54:58 He's, he's the perfect nerd assassin-

Daniel Holzman 55:00 Yeah, but how old is that guy, man?

Joe Rogan 55:01 He's very young. Um, I wanna say Mikey's in his very early 20s. But he-

Daniel Holzman 55:05 You can eat pizza every day in your early 20s?

Joe Rogan 55:07 If you go to his, uh, Instagram or it might be on his YouTube, see if you can find the pizza. You go... There he goes. A lot of pasta too. That's him making pasta. But he's, uh, either eating pizza or pasta. Oh, this is him in an Italian restaurant and he's pouring olive oil all over his, uh, pasta. But if you go to his, um, his, uh, YouTube, you can see he actually makes his own pizza. He's got a pizza oven and he eats once a day. So he trains, like, literally 10 hours a day plus. I mean, he's fucking driven. And he trains seven days a week. He's an animal. And, uh, he will eat one meal a day. After his training, he'll eat, like, a couple massive pizzas.

Daniel Holzman 55:53 Wasn't that, like, Colin Powell's thing? He was like-

Joe Rogan 55:54 There it is. Cooking with Mikey. So give me some volume on this.

Narrator 55:57 This meal-

Joe Rogan 55:58 So this-

Narrator 55:58 ... is about 7,000 calories. So I work really hard all day so I can eat what I want at night.

Joe Rogan 56:05 So he had problems with weight-

Narrator 56:06 I usually make-

Joe Rogan 56:06 ... cutting for, you know, tournaments and such.

Narrator 56:09 Yeah, the pizza, I go to Whole Foods and I get it over there.

Daniel Holzman 56:10 Yeah.

Narrator 56:10 I get the dough there. I just get the-

Joe Rogan 56:11 And so he tried a bunch of different diets and one of the things that he...

Narrator 56:15 So when you go in here, this is all pizza things.

Joe Rogan 56:16 Look at this. It's all...

Daniel Holzman 56:16 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:16 He's got a giant fridge filled with-

Narrator 56:18 This is buffalo mozzarella.

Joe Rogan 56:18 ... pizza food.

Daniel Holzman 56:19 Yeah, he's got good... He's got good ingredients.

Joe Rogan 56:21 Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, phenomenal ingredients.

Narrator 56:24 Now, look, I like mixing in different-

Joe Rogan 56:24 You could tell he knows what he's doing.

Narrator 56:26 ... ingredients in the pizza.

Joe Rogan 56:26 I mean, he's making amazing pizza.

Narrator 56:29 Now we're gonna mix it up. He goes to Whole Foods.

Joe Rogan 56:30 So he does the whole deal himself.

Narrator 56:32 So the flow, your kind of subconscious just flowing through it, you know? Like-

Joe Rogan 56:35 And, like, this is, like, sort of a part of his thing.

Narrator 56:37 ... like-

Joe Rogan 56:38 It's like, it's not just that he eats pizza, but he actually makes it.

Narrator 56:41 ... I'm just thinking about, like, training-

Joe Rogan 56:42 So every day, he trains really, really hard and he's a world-class competitor.

Narrator 56:46 ... excited about eating because when you've passed 24 hours, you're just, like, really excited about just eating.

Joe Rogan 56:49 And then he makes pizza at night and that's what he eats.

Narrator 56:52 The good news, um, I've done so many diets, you know?

Daniel Holzman 56:54 Wow.

Narrator 56:54 And the secret to dieting is actually not dieting, just eating what you want and you're satisfied. If you're satisfied, then-

Joe Rogan 57:00 Man.

Daniel Holzman 57:00 How old is he?

Narrator 57:01 ... you can eat anything you want.

Daniel Holzman 57:01 23?

Joe Rogan 57:02 Yeah, he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 57:03 He's like, "The secret to dieting is not dieting."

Narrator 57:04 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 57:04 "Just eat pizza and work out, like, eight hours a day." (laughs) Yeah, cool.

Joe Rogan 57:07 Yeah, the secret to dieting when you work 12 hours a fucking day strangling people.

Daniel Holzman 57:11 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 57:11 And that's his sister, Tammy, and she's also world-class.

Narrator 57:14 Now all I'm gonna do is turn the pizza to the other side.

Daniel Holzman 57:16 This guy is hysterical.

Joe Rogan 57:17 Yeah, so he's got a little pizza oven in his backyard.

Daniel Holzman 57:21 These, these ovens are super popular now, like all these little...

Joe Rogan 57:24 Little gas drive.

Daniel Holzman 57:24 Yeah, cool, man.

Joe Rogan 57:26 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 57:26 They get hot and they work.

Narrator 57:27 ... get some charcoal. It's good to go.

Joe Rogan 57:29 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 57:29 There are people in LA that are, like, setting up their taco stands with those and making them on the street and they're doing it.

Joe Rogan 57:33 Really?

Daniel Holzman 57:33 Yeah, it's cool, man.

Joe Rogan 57:34 Oh, no kidding. Yeah, um, again, this is like... Is that as good as, um, a wood-fired one? Like, does it impart the same flavor or is it okay enough?

Daniel Holzman 57:44 I think, you know, I don't... Well, look, I'm New York, I make New York style pizza right now so it's not wood-fired traditionally.

Joe Rogan 57:49 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 57:49 Um, so I think you can make really great f- re- great pizza in there. But it's not gonna have that smoky flavor at all, right? But, like-

Joe Rogan 57:55 Right, but is the smoky flavor necessary or is it just different?

Daniel Holzman 57:59 I think that it's just different, for sure.

Joe Rogan 58:01 As opposed to, like, steak?

Daniel Holzman 58:03 Not necessary. Well, like, the thing about pizza, because if you follow how pizza... You know, I'm... And again, like, I'm not... I want... I don't wanna speak out of turn 'cause I'm not like an expert-expert on this, but I'm-

Joe Rogan 58:14 You own a fucking pizza restaurant.

Daniel Holzman 58:15 I own a pizzeria restaurant.

Joe Rogan 58:16 I've seen you talk about it.

Daniel Holzman 58:16 I've been studying it for a couple years, like... So basically, you know, the Italians came through... came to America through New York and so that's where the first kind of pizza came on the scene. But then as the kind of, like, like, the Italian diaspora starts to spread across the country, you see different ingredients being incorporated in different towns and then the pizza starts to change based on the, the local flav... you know, preferences. So it's like I'm... I got a pizzeria, I'm opening up over here. These are the... This is the type of cheese they've got here, so that's what I'm using or maybe this is the type of cheese people like to eat, so that's what I'm... And so they get really specific and you start to see, like, okay, well, this is now traditional Neapolitan pizza, New York style pizza, you know, Chicago style pizza, um, Detroit style pizza. Those are... They, they, they're these kind of defined terms because those are the... that, that's the pizza that's developed in that area. And so now people say, "Well, we can just... we can mix it up." Like, "We can u- do a New York style pizza, but we're gonna do it in a wood-fired oven and we can..." And, and there's nothing wrong with that. It can be really, really delicious. So when you say, like, is it better or should it have the wood? It's like, well, if you're gonna make a Neapolitan style pizza, you should do it with... in a wood-fired oven 'cause that's what was traditionally done. Um, and yeah, it's really delicious. That doesn't mean you can't take that same dough and bake it in a non-wood-fired oven and also have a delicious pizza.

Joe Rogan 59:42 Mm.

Daniel Holzman 59:42 It just... It's, A, different and it's not necessarily then authentic to what it was supposed to be.

Joe Rogan 59:47 It's interesting how different regions of countries have very specific ways of doing things, like bistecca Florentine.

Daniel Holzman 59:54 So good.

Joe Rogan 59:54 Oh my God.

Daniel Holzman 59:55 So good.

Joe Rogan 59:56 I mean, it's just a steak.

Daniel Holzman 59:57 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 59:57 It's a large porterhouse steak, but they figured out the way they like to do it over... I think they mostly use olive for the wood, right? Isn't the hardwood they generally use?

Daniel Holzman 1:00:08 Do you... does the wood... So I don't know what exactly... Sorry, I didn't mean... I was...

Joe Rogan 1:00:11 No, no worries.

Daniel Holzman 1:00:11 That was me being like, "I have no idea, so I'm just gonna ask you a quick question." (laughs) That was the other thing-

Joe Rogan 1:00:16 Hmm.

Daniel Holzman 1:00:16 ... Teller said. He was like, "Just ask him a question." (laughs) Um, does the wood, does the flavor of the wood, like I'm always interested in this, and I p- I do this at home all the time. Like I get, I've got orange wood, I've got almond, I've got oak, and I've really been trying to tell, like can I taste the difference between the smoke from one of these woods versus the others? Some of them, like mesquite, has a really distinct-

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 1:00:38 ... flavor.

Joe Rogan 1:00:38 So I was gonna say that. Mesquite does.

Daniel Holzman 1:00:40 You know, or alderwood-

Joe Rogan 1:00:41 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 1:00:42 ... has a really distinct... But a lot of these woods, like, I think it's just that that happened, like, in Italy by the olive vines. They had olive vines, so that's what they used.

Joe Rogan 1:00:51 Maybe, yeah. Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 1:00:52 You know, like almond wood in California is super traditional because, you know, the almond farms have to tr- uh, ha- have to, um, change over their trees every however many years. And they sell off the wood, right? So I feel like, or post oak in Texas is like, you got post oak.

Joe Rogan 1:01:09 Yeah, there's a lot of oak here. And, but the guys at, uh, Terry Black's that I talked to about it, they generally prefer post oak 'cause they say it's got a nice clean smoke. They like the, the flavor it imparts. "It's not overwhelming," I think was their way of describing it. And-

Daniel Holzman 1:01:25 It also burns really long and slow.

Joe Rogan 1:01:27 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 1:01:27 So like bang for the buck money-wise-

Joe Rogan 1:01:29 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 1:01:29 ... oak burns. Like when I cook with almond wood, it takes twice as much almond over oak. And orange wood is super quick.

Joe Rogan 1:01:35 Hmm.

Daniel Holzman 1:01:36 Um.

Joe Rogan 1:01:37 And that, for like, the trying to maintain a steady temperature over a long period of time, I would imagine something like post oak, 'cause that's why Terry Black's probably uses it. They have these enormous smokers that they have to maintain, you know, at a steady 250 for, you know, tw-

Daniel Holzman 1:01:51 24 hours a day-

Joe Rogan 1:01:52 Mm-hmm.

Daniel Holzman 1:01:52 ... they're, they're cooking.

Joe Rogan 1:01:53 Yeah, yeah.

Daniel Holzman 1:01:53 Other than cleaning them out, they're like-

Joe Rogan 1:01:55 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 1:01:55 ... just rolling. I mean, he showed me the wood he's got there. He's like, you know, "This is a week's worth of wood." And you're like, "Holy shit."

Joe Rogan 1:02:01 That's crazy. It's so much wood.

Daniel Holzman 1:02:03 Crazy, yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:03 Yeah, I mean, thank God there's plenty of trees out here.

Daniel Holzman 1:02:05 So maybe there's a financial reason that, you know, the oak burns longer. You get more bang for your buck on the flavor.

Joe Rogan 1:02:10 Also th- the flavor, I mean, it does work. It's pretty phenomenal. I don't know what, uh, Franklin uses or what Salt Lick uses or some of these other places, but...

Daniel Holzman 1:02:19 I mean, the cost of wood has gone up. I mean, it's, in, in LA it's like, you know, people would shit their pants. It's like a quarter quart of wood is like $500, you know?

Joe Rogan 1:02:27 Really?

Daniel Holzman 1:02:27 It's just so much money.

Joe Rogan 1:02:29 Wow.

Daniel Holzman 1:02:29 Um, and there's all kinds... You know, the government is really, you know, there's... The pollution thing is, is a thing for them. So they're like, "We want to cut down on people using wood." So there's all kinds of incentives. Like as a restaurant, you can't get wood fi-... I think you can. They're like gonna make everybody have electric in their houses on, in j- pretty soon.

Joe Rogan 1:02:44 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 1:02:45 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:45 They're stopping fireplaces.

Daniel Holzman 1:02:46 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:46 Because apparently that's a big issue in terms-

Daniel Holzman 1:02:49 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:49 ... of like pollution, particulate pollution-

Daniel Holzman 1:02:51 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 1:02:51 ... and what, what smoke from a fireplace does, which really sucks 'cause it's the best smell. When you go into a house and the fireplace is cooking and it's warm out. Like if you're in Colorado and you got a fireplace and it's January, that's amazing. You get inside the house, you smell the fireplace and it's, it's cool. You smell it outside when you're getting close to the house.

Daniel Holzman 1:03:11 I think the thing that's, you know, you just run into this all the time now because everybody's so like staunch in their politics and everybody's got their opinions. But it's like, you know, I'm in LA, I'm like, "I don't give a shit about the fireplace." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 (laughs)

Daniel Holzman 1:03:21 "It's like 1,000 degrees all year long, like no problem."

Joe Rogan 1:03:23 Right.

Daniel Holzman 1:03:23 And then, but, you know, people in Colorado are like, "Yo, man, the fireplace is really piece of our..." You know, whatever it is.

Joe Rogan 1:03:29 History.

Daniel Holzman 1:03:30 So depending upon where you're from, obviously you care more or less. But there's nothing I like more than the smell of a fireplace.

Joe Rogan 1:03:35 The th- I think the thing is, it's fine if you live in a small town and you're not really contributing that much. But if you live in a large city, you have a few million people in your city, and a few hundred thousand of them are burning fires at the same time, you might have a problem.

Daniel Holzman 1:03:51 And maybe if you're a firefighter, you're like, "These jackasses are just like"-

Joe Rogan 1:03:54 Yeah.

Daniel Holzman 1:03:54 "... burning their houses down." Like, you know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:03:56 Yeah, there's definitely that and then in-

Daniel Holzman 1:03:58 Trying to work on this calendar and the sky is just like...

Joe Rogan 1:04:00 In LA there's an issue with barbecues too. Like there's barb- there's warnings, like sometimes when there's high wind, like