CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 1:23
Pool-table warmup and setting the tone for a wide-ranging conversation
Joe welcomes Roger Waters, bonding over a quick pool game and Waters’ emphasis on controlling the cue ball. Joe frames the episode around Waters’ tour, public controversies, and his unusually direct political commentary in mainstream interviews.
- •Friendly opening centered on playing pool and reading skill cues
- •Joe expresses admiration for Waters’ openness and preparedness in interviews
- •Conversation is positioned as both music- and politics-focused
- 1:23 – 4:46
BDS, antisemitism accusations, and why Waters says the label is used to shut debate down
Waters explains why he supports BDS and how that support leads to recurring accusations of antisemitism. He argues the charge is used to conflate criticism of Israeli government policies with hatred of Jewish people, citing examples like show-related backlash and public smear campaigns.
- •Origin and goals of BDS (boycott, divestment, sanctions)
- •Waters’ denial of antisemitism and distinction between policy critique vs. religion/people
- •Example: Miami show dispute over children singing “Another Brick in the Wall”
- •Comparison to other figures accused similarly (e.g., Jeremy Corbyn)
- 4:46 – 15:20
Firsthand experiences in Israel/Palestine: checkpoints, segregation, and the word 'apartheid'
Waters recounts agreeing to play Tel Aviv, being persuaded to change course, and later touring the occupied territories. He describes segregated roads, checkpoints, and restrictions on Palestinian movement, arguing these realities fit the definition of apartheid and were once taboo to say publicly.
- •Waters cancels/relocates a planned Tel Aviv gig and plays at a coexistence community
- •Audience reaction when he publicly urged peace and dialogue
- •Travel in occupied territories as a turning point in his political commitment
- •How “apartheid” entered mainstream vocabulary over time
- 15:20 – 23:22
Waters’ political formation: his father’s death, his mother’s activism, and a lifelong moral framework
Waters traces his worldview back to childhood: losing his father in WWII and being raised by a left-wing, deeply principled mother. He shares her core advice—study issues thoroughly from multiple sides, then “do the right thing”—as the foundation of his activism.
- •Father killed at Anzio; impact on family and identity
- •Mother’s working-class awakening as a teacher amid poverty and inequality
- •Family life steeped in political organizing and anti-war values
- •The guiding method: read widely, examine both sides, then act ethically
- 23:22 – 26:23
Ukraine: ceasefire advocacy, escalation fears, and the Cuba Missile Crisis analogy
Waters pivots to Ukraine, insisting his priority is a ceasefire and negotiations rather than escalation. He argues diplomacy prevented nuclear catastrophe in 1962 and warns that continuing to pour weapons into the conflict increases the risk of a broader war.
- •Waters frames his stance as pro-ceasefire, pro-talks, not pro-Russia
- •Comparison to JFK–Khrushchev negotiations during the Cuban Missile Crisis
- •Critique of escalation logic and “nuclear chicken” rhetoric
- •Emphasis on empathy for soldiers and families on both sides
- 26:23 – 29:08
Open letter to Putin and debate over NATO expansion and security guarantees
Waters reads his open letter to Vladimir Putin, asking whether Russia wants an end to the war and whether it has territorial ambitions beyond specific regions. Joe and Waters discuss NATO’s post–Cold War expansion, alleged broken assurances to Russia, and how leaders’ public posturing blocks negotiation.
- •Waters’ letter: ceasefire, neutrality, and assurances against further invasion
- •Waters calls the invasion “heinous” even if he sees it as provoked
- •Discussion of NATO moving east after 1990-era assurances
- •Waters criticizes Zelenskyy’s “no talks until Putin is removed” stance
- 29:08 – 32:02
China, Tibet, resources, and modern power: conquest vs. debt and extraction
The conversation widens to China’s role in Tibet and resource competition, including minerals and water supply. They contrast historical European-style conquest with modern economic leverage, linking global extraction to corporate incentives and geopolitical influence.
- •Waters notes China’s invasion of Tibet and the strategic value of the region
- •Tibet’s scale and significance (water, glaciers, minerals)
- •China’s economic influence abroad (e.g., Congo) as modern empire-building
- •Broader critique of multinational corporations shaping outcomes in poorer regions
- 32:02 – 49:53
Chevron vs. indigenous communities: the Donziger case and why the media won’t touch it
Waters and Rogan describe the Steven Donziger case as a warning sign about corporate power and legal intimidation. They argue the mainstream press ignores stories that threaten powerful interests, reinforcing a status quo where wealth dictates outcomes.
- •Waters’ long involvement in the Chevron/Ecuador pollution battle
- •Donziger’s prosecution framed as corrupt retaliation and precedent-setting
- •Media incentives: advertisers, influence, and selective coverage
- •Activism frustrations: small protests vs. widespread public apathy
- 49:53 – 1:08:21
Fixing the system: money in politics, oligarch power, and social media censorship
Joe proposes removing money from politics as the essential reform; Waters agrees and expands into oligarch power and propaganda ownership. They discuss Zuckerberg/Meta, FBI influence, “Russiagate,” and how information control shapes public consent—often under the guise of safety.
- •Citizens United as a core driver of corruption and war incentives
- •Insider trading by politicians and wealth as a route to power
- •Waters’ critique of tech platforms deciding what people can read
- •Discussion of the Hunter Biden laptop suppression and vague “limited engagement” tools
- 1:08:21 – 1:21:42
Iraq, the neocon playbook, and the 'seven countries in five years' clip
Rogan and Waters revisit post‑9/11 interventionism, describing Iraq as a turning point that squandered global solidarity and fueled instability. They play Wesley Clark’s account of a Pentagon memo outlining a multi-country war plan, treating it as evidence of premeditated regime-change strategy.
- •Critique of the Iraq WMD narrative and the global anti-war protests
- •Wesley Clark clip: Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Iran
- •Libya as an example of collapse and the re-emergence of slave markets
- •Waters connects policy decisions to broader moral and humanitarian failures
- 1:21:42 – 1:37:10
Waters’ creative engine: writing songs, memoir prose, and obsessively refining the live show
Waters explains his non-routine creative process—waiting for a “pregnant feeling,” then working with guitar/piano and a notepad. He describes writing a 500-page memoir during COVID and reveals he tweaks his stage production constantly, even on the final night of a tour.
- •Creativity as intuition-driven rather than scheduled discipline
- •COVID lockdown leads to new songs and a major prose-writing breakthrough
- •Waters edits the show daily; perfectionism as a performance philosophy
- •Art as moral communication: vulnerability, connection, and anti-nuclear messaging
- 1:37:10 – 2:00:35
Pink Floyd lore and legacy: Wizard of Oz sync myth, quitting weed, and Syd Barrett’s decline
Waters dismisses the “Dark Side of Oz” synchronization as coincidence, then shares his history with cigarettes, spliffs, and why he quit cannabis. The conversation turns to Syd Barrett—how fame-era mental deterioration unfolded, attempts to help, and the existential threat his collapse posed to the band’s future.
- •Waters: Oz synchronization isn’t band-intended (but enjoys the folklore)
- •Waters’ heavy smoking, spliffs, nicotine dependence, and quitting cannabis
- •Syd Barrett’s deterioration: disjointed speech, detachment, refusal of help
- •How Waters stepped into songwriting leadership after Syd’s departure
- 2:00:35 – 2:39:45
Protest songs in the real world: Iran, human rights, UN speech, and the Israel–Palestine endgame
Waters discusses how lyrics like “Hey teacher, leave them kids alone” become protest chants globally, including in Iran. He returns to Israel/Palestine, arguing for equal rights as the only viable resolution, describing international law constraints, UN limitations, and why he believes governments avoid meaningful change.
- •“Another Brick” as protest anthem in South Africa and Iran; supporting demonstrators
- •Waters’ broader standard: Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948)
- •Waters’ view of Gaza, Hamas, and the legal concept of resistance under occupation
- •UN: value as forum but weakened by Security Council veto power; Waters recounts speaking there
- 2:39:45 – 2:48:46
Assange, Epstein, and closing reflections on propaganda, accountability, and nuclear risk
They argue Julian Assange’s prosecution is meant to terrorize future journalists and normalize censorship by punishment. The episode ends with a discussion of elite impunity (Epstein/Maxwell), then returns to the urgency of avoiding nuclear escalation—before they wrap to go play pool.
- •Assange framed as “slow murder” and a deterrent against investigative journalism
- •Epstein/Maxwell discussed as an example of missing accountability and hidden networks
- •Shared frustration with how propaganda blurs truth and weakens public resistance
- •Final emphasis: Ukraine as a present-day pathway to catastrophic escalation; farewell
