CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:29
Cold open and meeting Cliff Gray: from online chats to in-studio
The episode kicks off with the show’s intro and Joe welcoming Cliff in person after years of talking online. Joe tees up Cliff’s unusual career path as an outfitter and hunting guide.
- •JRE intro music and show opener
- •Joe and Cliff meet face-to-face after years of online interaction
- •Joe sets the central question: how Cliff became a hunting guide
- 0:29 – 9:59
Cliff’s origin story: ranch upbringing, finance career, and choosing a different life
Cliff explains growing up rural with a father who ran cattle and did some outfitting, then pursuing higher education and working in finance. The conversation turns to how life paths become “path dependent,” and what it takes to change direction before responsibilities lock you in.
- •Early exposure to hunting, ranching, horses, and outfitting through family
- •Business school and years working in finance/trading
- •The risk of career change once you have a house/kids/responsibilities
- •Cliff’s supportive family and wife as key enablers of the transition
- 9:59 – 14:26
Making the jump: quitting, moving to Colorado, and building an outfitting business
Cliff describes leaving a wealth-management job, moving back to Colorado, and taking what looks like a career “step back” to pack animals and guide. He explains the business mechanics—federal permits, buying a struggling operation, and growing through grind and reputation.
- •Immediate resignation and a supportive employer who even offered more money
- •Hands-on ramp: packing elk, guiding, rebuilding skills in the field
- •Federal permitting as the gatekeeper for wilderness outfitting
- •Buying an underperforming outfitter and growing from ~dozen clients to 200+
- •Word-of-mouth and repeat clients once the operation is established
- 14:26 – 16:22
Deep-wilderness hunting logistics: wall tents, pack strings, and remote elk country
Joe and Cliff dig into what wilderness outfitting really looks like: miles off-road, setting wall-tent camps, and the physical reality of getting animals out. Cliff contrasts elk camps with backpack-style sheep and goat hunts, where horses often aren’t practical.
- •Why pack-in hunts are so grueling (15–20 miles in, then pack-out)
- •Wall-tent base camps for elk vs backpacking for sheep/goats above timberline
- •Horseback hunting vs hunting on foot depending on terrain and camp placement
- •Running wilderness camps feels like ‘going back in time’
- 16:22 – 25:19
Amish guides in camp: tech rules, rumspringa, and elite hands-on skill sets
Cliff explains how much of his later crew was Amish and why they were such a great fit for remote, livestock-heavy work. Joe is fascinated by the “loopholes” around technology use and the broader point that practical education can outperform corporate-style schooling in certain worlds.
- •Amish crew became a large portion of Cliff’s guiding operation
- •Different churches allow limited email/cell use for business
- •Rumspringa-age workers and how “Amish” status can be in transition
- •Exceptional work ethic and early mastery of trades/animal handling
- •Broader discussion: what ‘education’ means beyond corporate skills
- 25:19 – 30:28
The realities of camp life: silage smells, manure, predator scat, and dog behavior
A tangent becomes a memorable reality-check on smells, livestock feed, and how humans adapt to harsh conditions. They compare herbivore vs predator scat, then pivot into why dogs roll in foul smells and what that might mean evolutionarily.
- •Joe’s Pennsylvania memories and the stink of cattle country
- •Cliff explains silage fermentation and why it smells so strong
- •How people acclimate to constant smells in wall-tent horse camps
- •Why predator scat is more off-putting than herbivore scat
- •Dogs rolling in fox scat and theories about scent disguise
- 30:28 – 47:55
Colorado wolf reintroduction: numbers, ballot politics, and who pays the price
The conversation turns serious as Cliff outlines Colorado’s wolf transplant plan and why he thinks popular “rewilding” narratives ignore modern human-altered landscapes. Joe questions why such a complex wildlife issue was decided by ballot initiative and predicts conflicts with pets and livestock.
- •Expected first releases: ~15–30 wolves across two areas
- •Cliff argues the ‘rewilding’ premise ignores highways, fences, towns, and ski resorts
- •How the ballot initiative compelled CPW (Colorado Parks & Wildlife) actions
- •Concerns: dogs/pets, livestock losses, and downstream ungulate impacts
- •Debate over lethal management vs non-game status and political constraints
- 47:55 – 59:34
‘How Wolves Change Rivers’ under the microscope + Yellowstone elk history and genetics
Joe and Cliff play and critique the famous trophic cascade video, calling out what they see as a key historical misrepresentation about Yellowstone elk control. That branches into elk transplants, regional size differences, and Bergmann’s rule (bigger mammals in colder climates).
- •Cliff identifies a ‘bald-faced lie’ about human elk control in Yellowstone
- •Yellowstone history: predator suppression, elk removals/transplants, and ranger culls
- •Why Yellowstone elk genetics show up across the West via relocation efforts
- •Elk size variation and the role of climate (Bergmann’s rule)
- •Alberta genetics and unusually large elk examples
- 59:34 – 1:25:20
Grizzlies and black bears: uncertainty, roaming distances, and a close-call cub story
Joe and Cliff discuss grizzly presence and how hard it is to declare animals “extinct” in vast wilderness. They explore bear behavior, predatory tent attacks, and Cliff tells a tense guiding story involving a dead boar, a cub in the same tree, and an angry sow nearby.
- •Skepticism about definitive wildlife claims without constant field monitoring
- •Bear roaming behavior and long-distance movement studies
- •Black bear vs grizzly attack patterns; habituated bears and tent predation
- •Cliff’s story: confirming a harvested boar while a cub is above them
- •How proximity to cubs changes risk calculus for any bear encounter
- 1:25:20 – 1:31:21
Bathroom break to AI break: ChatGPT-4, memes, robocall lawsuits, and rejecting the metaverse
After a quick pause, they jump into the newly released ChatGPT-4 and what it signals about accelerating AI capabilities. Cliff contrasts digital futures with the richness of real-world outdoor pursuits, then the talk flows into tarpon fishing and why people rarely eat them.
- •ChatGPT-4 demo talk: test performance, translation, and ‘understanding’ memes
- •Speculation about near-future applications (robocall auto-lawsuits)
- •Joe predicts deeper societal entanglement with AI
- •Cliff prefers real-world adventure over metaverse immersion
- •Tarpon fishing: sport value and why the fish is rarely eaten (bones/smell)
- 1:31:21 – 2:03:41
Trophies, taxidermy, and eating predators: euro mounts, lion meat, and hunting ethics
They debate the appeal of replica fish and full taxidermy versus simple photos or European mounts. The conversation expands to mountain lions—how many are around, how stealthy they are, what the meat tastes like, and the emotional/ethical complexity of predator hunting.
- •Replica mounts vs “just frame the photo” philosophy
- •European mounts as a cleaner, less artificial trophy approach
- •Mountain lion stealth and unseen density near people (e.g., LA hills)
- •Lion meat described as lean pork; curiosity about eating what you hunt
- •Respecting predators while recognizing they can become human-adjacent killers
- 2:03:41 – 2:27:02
Hunting participation, access, and Joe’s role in growing the community
Cliff claims Joe has been a major driver of adult-onset hunters—especially people without hunting families. Joe argues more hunters are needed politically and culturally, even if it means crowded trailheads, and they talk hunting-license participation rates.
- •Cliff’s client pattern: many first-time elk hunters cite Rogan as the motivator
- •Joe’s argument: new hunters are allies, not competition
- •Data point: ~15M hunting licenses in 2020 (~4.6% of U.S. population)
- •Opportunity gaps (Texas private land vs Western OTC/public options)
- •Need for broader understanding of ecosystems and the role of hunting
- 2:27:02 – 2:35:23
Learning curve and modern barriers: gear obsession, archery complexity, and lifestyle shifts
They outline why hunting is intimidating to start: regulations, wind, glass, equipment, and especially archery setup and practice constraints for apartment dwellers. Joe frames hunting as a stress-reset that also drives year-round fitness and personal resilience.
- •The intimidating complexity of regulations, wind, glassing, and fieldcraft
- •Gear progress helps performance but can scare off beginners
- •Archery barriers: tuning, draw length, peep height, arrows/spine, practice access
- •Hunting as a lifestyle change and an annual training anchor
- •Choosing hard, rewarding challenges to build resilience and meaning
- 2:35:23 – 2:38:46
Teaching people to hunt through invasive pigs + cooking wild game, then wrap-up
Joe highlights Jesse Griffiths’ program that teaches hunting and whole-animal processing through Texas wild pigs, emphasizing the importance of learning to cook game well. They close by plugging Cliff’s socials and website, ending on the theme of skill-building and real-world competence.
- •New School of Traditional Cookery: hunt, butcher, and cook wild pigs
- •Cooking quality as the difference between ‘inedible’ and ‘amazing’ game
- •Using invasive species as an accessible entry point for new hunters
- •Cliff plugs: Instagram (CliffGRY), YouTube (Cliff Gray), pursuitwithcliff.com
- •Episode sign-off and final thanks
