CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:29
Cold open and meeting Cliff Gray: from online chats to in-studio
The episode kicks off with the show’s intro and Joe welcoming Cliff in person after years of talking online. Joe tees up Cliff’s unusual career path as an outfitter and hunting guide.
- 0:29 – 9:59
Cliff’s origin story: ranch upbringing, finance career, and choosing a different life
Cliff explains growing up rural with a father who ran cattle and did some outfitting, then pursuing higher education and working in finance. The conversation turns to how life paths become “path dependent,” and what it takes to change direction before responsibilities lock you in.
- 9:59 – 14:26
Making the jump: quitting, moving to Colorado, and building an outfitting business
Cliff describes leaving a wealth-management job, moving back to Colorado, and taking what looks like a career “step back” to pack animals and guide. He explains the business mechanics—federal permits, buying a struggling operation, and growing through grind and reputation.
- 14:26 – 16:22
Deep-wilderness hunting logistics: wall tents, pack strings, and remote elk country
Joe and Cliff dig into what wilderness outfitting really looks like: miles off-road, setting wall-tent camps, and the physical reality of getting animals out. Cliff contrasts elk camps with backpack-style sheep and goat hunts, where horses often aren’t practical.
- 16:22 – 25:19
Amish guides in camp: tech rules, rumspringa, and elite hands-on skill sets
Cliff explains how much of his later crew was Amish and why they were such a great fit for remote, livestock-heavy work. Joe is fascinated by the “loopholes” around technology use and the broader point that practical education can outperform corporate-style schooling in certain worlds.
- 25:19 – 30:28
The realities of camp life: silage smells, manure, predator scat, and dog behavior
A tangent becomes a memorable reality-check on smells, livestock feed, and how humans adapt to harsh conditions. They compare herbivore vs predator scat, then pivot into why dogs roll in foul smells and what that might mean evolutionarily.
- 30:28 – 47:55
Colorado wolf reintroduction: numbers, ballot politics, and who pays the price
The conversation turns serious as Cliff outlines Colorado’s wolf transplant plan and why he thinks popular “rewilding” narratives ignore modern human-altered landscapes. Joe questions why such a complex wildlife issue was decided by ballot initiative and predicts conflicts with pets and livestock.
- 47:55 – 59:34
‘How Wolves Change Rivers’ under the microscope + Yellowstone elk history and genetics
Joe and Cliff play and critique the famous trophic cascade video, calling out what they see as a key historical misrepresentation about Yellowstone elk control. That branches into elk transplants, regional size differences, and Bergmann’s rule (bigger mammals in colder climates).
- 59:34 – 1:25:20
Grizzlies and black bears: uncertainty, roaming distances, and a close-call cub story
Joe and Cliff discuss grizzly presence and how hard it is to declare animals “extinct” in vast wilderness. They explore bear behavior, predatory tent attacks, and Cliff tells a tense guiding story involving a dead boar, a cub in the same tree, and an angry sow nearby.
- 1:25:20 – 1:31:21
Bathroom break to AI break: ChatGPT-4, memes, robocall lawsuits, and rejecting the metaverse
After a quick pause, they jump into the newly released ChatGPT-4 and what it signals about accelerating AI capabilities. Cliff contrasts digital futures with the richness of real-world outdoor pursuits, then the talk flows into tarpon fishing and why people rarely eat them.
- 1:31:21 – 2:03:41
Trophies, taxidermy, and eating predators: euro mounts, lion meat, and hunting ethics
They debate the appeal of replica fish and full taxidermy versus simple photos or European mounts. The conversation expands to mountain lions—how many are around, how stealthy they are, what the meat tastes like, and the emotional/ethical complexity of predator hunting.
- 2:03:41 – 2:27:02
Hunting participation, access, and Joe’s role in growing the community
Cliff claims Joe has been a major driver of adult-onset hunters—especially people without hunting families. Joe argues more hunters are needed politically and culturally, even if it means crowded trailheads, and they talk hunting-license participation rates.
- 2:27:02 – 2:35:23
Learning curve and modern barriers: gear obsession, archery complexity, and lifestyle shifts
They outline why hunting is intimidating to start: regulations, wind, glass, equipment, and especially archery setup and practice constraints for apartment dwellers. Joe frames hunting as a stress-reset that also drives year-round fitness and personal resilience.
- 2:35:23 – 2:38:46
Teaching people to hunt through invasive pigs + cooking wild game, then wrap-up
Joe highlights Jesse Griffiths’ program that teaches hunting and whole-animal processing through Texas wild pigs, emphasizing the importance of learning to cook game well. They close by plugging Cliff’s socials and website, ending on the theme of skill-building and real-world competence.
