Joe Rogan Experience #1955 - Cliff Gray

1. 0:00 – 0:29

   Cold open and meeting Cliff Gray: from online chats to in-studio

   1. CGCliff Gray0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

   2. NANarrator0:04

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

   3. NANarrator0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. (rock music)

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Hello, Cliff. What's happening?

   5. CGCliff Gray0:14

      What's up, man?

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:15

      Nice to meet you in person.

   7. CGCliff Gray0:16

      You too.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:17

      We've been chatting back and forth online for quite a while now.

   9. CGCliff Gray0:20

      Yeah, man. You know, it's funny. I was looking at it. I think it's been, like, five or six years since our first, like, interaction. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:27

       (laughs) How did you get involved-

   11. CGCliff Gray0:29

       (sighs)

2. 0:29 – 9:59

   Cliff’s origin story: ranch upbringing, finance career, and choosing a different life

   1. JRJoe Rogan0:29

      ... uh, being a, a hunting guide? What was your, what's your path to that?

   2. CGCliff Gray0:33

      Yeah, man. So it's a, I guess it's a, a long story. You know, I, I grew up in a rural area. My da-, my dad was a cattle rancher, and then he did a little outfitting when I was a kid. And then it, well, it's kind of a long story, man, 'cause I thought this was normal when I was a kid. But when I was, when my dad was an adult, he was a cattle rancher, and then he went back to vet school. And so, he actually left outfitting and cattle ranching and pursued that, and that was when he was, like, in his 40s, you know. And so, that was my first exposure to, you know, being an outfitter or guiding was through my father. And then honestly, man, like, growing up, I hunted all the time. I've been, I've, I've been obsessed with, you know, hunting since I was 10, 12 years old. And then I went and kind of did a more traditional, I guess, lifestyle. I went to school, went to undergrad, went to business school, and then I worked in finance for a few years. And, I mean, we can, we can get, uh, deep into, like, why that didn't last, you know. I, I got, I got-

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:37

      Maybe you can help us ex- pl- explain why the banks are failing right now. (laughs)

   4. CGCliff Gray1:42

      (laughs) I don't know, man. It's been so long since I've, I've been in that world.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:46

      What a, what a different contrast, though. The contrast between that world and the world that you live in now.

   6. CGCliff Gray1:52

      Dude, it's cra- it's crazy to think about because I still know people that, you know, are finance guys. My brother's a finance guy.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:58

      Does he live in hell?

   8. CGCliff Gray1:59

      Uh, well, well-

   9. JRJoe Rogan2:00

      He can't be happy. (laughs)

   10. CGCliff Gray2:01

       Yeah, yeah. He, he's, he's doing all right 'cause he doesn't, you know, he doesn't, uh, um, all his, the investment strategies that he's do, for the most part, are, like, hedge type of strategies. But, uh, but he's doing okay. But yeah, it's a different, it's a different world, man. You know?

   11. JRJoe Rogan2:16

       It's definitely a different world.

   12. CGCliff Gray2:18

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan2:18

       Yeah.

   14. CGCliff Gray2:19

       And I always, I always look back on my path and I think, like, "Well, did I choose, you know, did I choose the right thing?" P- I don't know, but I'm happy. So, I guess, you know-

   15. JRJoe Rogan2:28

       If you're, if you're happy, you chose the right thing. But no one, there's no right thing. There's just, like, life. Life and decisions.

   16. CGCliff Gray2:35

       Right.

   17. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       So, this idea that you're gonna, like, "Oh, I wish I could do it differently." Well, you definitely can't, so don't wish that.

   18. CGCliff Gray2:41

       (laughs)

   19. JRJoe Rogan2:41

       (laughs) 'Cause there's, there's no way you can do it differently.

   20. CGCliff Gray2:44

       Right.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:44

       Unless you have a fucking time machine. And even if you have a time machine, you will already have the knowledge of what happens if you do it wrong. So, if you go back and try to do it right, who knows how you're going to fuck that up?

   22. CGCliff Gray2:56

       Yeah, yeah. Sure.

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:57

       Like, it's not life. That's d- Imagine living your life knowing what's going to happen if you do it certain ways.

   24. CGCliff Gray3:02

       Right.

   25. JRJoe Rogan3:02

       Like, that would be a terrible way to live. Like, you'd be just f- You would never be in the moment. You'd be constantly filled with, uh, this anxiety of making sure that you don't do the thing that you have already done.

   26. CGCliff Gray3:14

       Right.

   27. JRJoe Rogan3:14

       So that you could live your life in a different way. I mean, I can imagine if, like, you know, you run a red light and crash into a car and you're like, go, "Oh my god. How could I stop that from happening again? I have to make sure I don't do that again."

   28. CGCliff Gray3:27

       Sure.

   29. JRJoe Rogan3:27

       Things like that.

   30. CGCliff Gray3:28

       Yeah, yeah.
3. 9:59 – 14:26

   Making the jump: quitting, moving to Colorado, and building an outfitting business

   1. JRJoe Rogan9:59

      So how did you go about starting and getting clients? So if you're starting-

   2. CGCliff Gray10:03

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:03

      ... an outfitting business, you're a young guy, you're... You're leaving the financial sector-

   4. CGCliff Gray10:07

      Yeah.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:07

      ... and you're going and starting and getting clients. How do you, uh, go about making that happen?

   6. CGCliff Gray10:12

      Yeah. So, so part of the... Part of how that, how that process worked for me is when I got to Colorado, I started doing some packing and guiding. This is... I mean, this is after I worked in finance. So I took like, you know, kind of a... Most people would say, a step back in my career (laughs) , you know. So one day, I was like, looking at financial models and, and trading, and that sort of thing. And then three weeks later, I was like, helping guys pack, you know, elk out of the wilderness on mules, you know, that sort of thing. So, so I started getting exposed to it that way again. Um, and then what, uh, what, what I did was I started just looking for a business to buy, and so you have to... There's... When you're operating in the wilderness areas, you've got to have federal permitting. So I got all that figured out, I bought a business, and then it's just like hand-to-hand combat, man. Like you s- I mean, the first year that I was guiding and outfitting, I think I had, you know, maybe like a dozen clients or something like that. The last year that, that I, that I outfitted, I had like north of 200 clients, you know.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:19

      Wow.

   8. CGCliff Gray11:19

      So it's just, it's just hand-to-hand combat. And then, you know, as you learn an area, and, and we can get into the nitty-gritty details of it, but these wilderness areas, there's no roads in them, man. So, you know, you're talking about hundreds of thousands of acres, and you're talking about elk that are pretty heavily pressured. I mean, it takes years just the grind of like learning the area. And so over time, just I... Just, you know, step by step, man. And then, and then I started to get good guides working for me over the years. And we... You know, we all just got where we learned the area, you know, a- along the way. And then, uh, I mean, the reality is, the last three or four years, it was never... It was never a problem booking people. We were always booked, you know. That, that's how that world i- Uh, that's how that world is in a lot of ways. Like, once you get established and you keep people happy, it's-

   9. JRJoe Rogan12:13

      Then it's like sort of word of mouth, you know.

   10. CGCliff Gray12:14

       Yeah, you stay booked.

   11. JRJoe Rogan12:15

       "Hey, I went with Cliff. It was great."

   12. CGCliff Gray12:16

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan12:17

       Yeah. "He knows how to get there."

   14. CGCliff Gray12:18

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan12:19

       You... What you do is fascinating to me because it's such a... It's one of the more, um, interesting kinds of hunting.... where you go really deep in, uh, with animals. You know, you bring in mules or horses-

   16. CGCliff Gray12:33

       Yeah.

   17. JRJoe Rogan12:33

       ... and you go very, very deep in to find these animals. And, um, I, I, you know, I think, uh, most people on the outside that think about hunting, they don't really understand how grueling it is, how unbelievably difficult it is to get, you know, 15, 20 miles in.

   18. CGCliff Gray12:53

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan12:54

       And then if you do shoot an animal, to get that animal out is an unbelievable struggle.

   20. CGCliff Gray13:00

       Yeah.

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:01

       And if you're talking about public land, it's really one of the best ways to find elk or to find really good elk.

   22. CGCliff Gray13:10

       Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. I mean, you have to... In a lot of these areas y- ... I mean, people think about Colorado, Joe, and they think ... So I, I hunted what technically would have been the lar- ... They, they, they say the White River elk herd is the largest elk herd in the, in the, in the world, right? So you have that perception that, "Oh, okay, well, you go there, you go into the flat tops, or you go into the surrounding forest, you know, forest service property, and you just put your backpack on, get off the road, and there's gonna be elk everywhere." Well, I mean, it's a, it's a ton of habitat. And the thing about a lot of that country is all the habitat's good. You know, you can go other places, and they've got elk, but you, you know, the ... Uh, only 10% of the actual habitat is gonna hold elk, right? Well, the flat tops or, you know, these big chunks of space in Colorado, I mean, it's all good elk habitat. You know, until, until you get massive amount of snow that limits the feed for elk, I mean, elk could be everywhere. So what I'm getting to is they get, they get crazy dispersed. And so ... And the only way to get into a lot of these areas is either backpacking, you know, on your foot hiking, uh, on your feet hiking, or, um, you know, you've got to pack in with horses and mules.

4. 14:26 – 16:22

   Deep-wilderness hunting logistics: wall tents, pack strings, and remote elk country

   1. JRJoe Rogan14:26

      Do you guys go in and set up a wall tent? Like-

   2. CGCliff Gray14:29

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan14:30

      And then are you there for weeks or months at a time? Like how do you, how do you do it?

   4. CGCliff Gray14:33

      Yeah. So if, if we're talking ... So all the ... If, if we're talking elk, the elk as a species, almost all of that was out of wall tent camps. And we packed those in. Now, um, now I had ... I did a fair amount of sheep and goat guiding too. Most of that we did b- out of backpacks, just because the out- ... Like a lot of the, the habitat that mountain goats and, and sheep live in, it's not really conducive to packing with horses, just because you get, you end up getting above timberline. And there's just some lish- logistical reasons. A lot of times, it's just better to backpack hunt them. Um, but on elk, it's almost always y- ... So you're packing your camp with horses and mules, and then you're coming back in. Sometimes you'll hunt off foot. You know, if, if, if the camp's in a, in a situation where you can cover ground on foot and hunt, then you'll do it that way. Uh, but a lot of times, you'll actually bring horses back in and hunt horseback too. And that's like a whole n- ... People don't ... I mean, you know, taking care of horses, you know, if you got 15 horses and mules in camp, like, you know, 12 miles back in the wilderness, like, it's ... You know, it feels like going back in time, man.

   5. JRJoe Rogan15:40

      Yeah.

   6. CGCliff Gray15:40

      You know? I mean, that's why, that's why ... I mean, honestly, Joe, by the time I sold ... So I sold, uh, my main business, like, 18 months ago. By the time I sold it, the majority of my crew was Amish.

   7. JRJoe Rogan15:53

      Really?

   8. CGCliff Gray15:54

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan15:54

      Amish?

   10. CGCliff Gray15:55

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan15:55

       How did you find these guys?

   12. CGCliff Gray15:56

       Dude, they just ... So I, the-

   13. JRJoe Rogan15:58

       'Cause they don't use electricity, right? So like ...

   14. CGCliff Gray16:01

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) Uh, so we could, we could

   15. NANarrator16:03

       Get them online.

   16. CGCliff Gray16:03

       Yeah, dude, we can talk about it.

   17. JRJoe Rogan16:04

       Can you get them online? Do they cheat?

   18. CGCliff Gray16:06

       We, we c- ... So yeah, yeah. So ...

   19. JRJoe Rogan16:08

       (laughs)

   20. CGCliff Gray16:08

       Dude, I, I got some Amish buddies that I l- I love, man, and I don't ... So I don't, I don't wanna like ... Uh, like, Mark, if you're listening, man, and you, you probably shouldn't be listening 'cause you're Amish, but, uh ... (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan16:21

       (laughs)

   22. NANarrator16:21

       (laughs)

5. 16:22 – 25:19

   Amish guides in camp: tech rules, rumspringa, and elite hands-on skill sets

   1. CGCliff Gray16:22

      But no. So the answer to your question, man, is it just depends on, you know, what church they're from and the rules, you know, the rules that they have established, you know, and what they're doing. So if it's for a business, a lot of them can use email. They can use a cell phone.

   2. JRJoe Rogan16:37

      Really?

   3. CGCliff Gray16:37

      Yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan16:37

      Oh, what a hack.

   5. CGCliff Gray16:38

      Yeah. Yeah. (laughs)

   6. JRJoe Rogan16:40

      That's ridiculous. Then you're not Amish.

   7. CGCliff Gray16:42

      Yeah, yeah. But it -

   8. JRJoe Rogan16:43

      This is ... That's the whole thing.

   9. CGCliff Gray16:44

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:44

       You can't use fucking email.

   11. CGCliff Gray16:45

       Well, here's the deal. So ...

   12. JRJoe Rogan16:47

       (laughs)

   13. CGCliff Gray16:47

       So they ... I, you know, I, I'm not an expert at them, but I became very good friends with, with some of them. You know, like, 'cause I mean, I had some of them work for me for four or five years. And man, there's some things about them that are absolutely amazing. You know what I mean? Like in ter-

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:03

       Hardworking people.

   15. CGCliff Gray17:04

       Hardworking is a understatement, man. And the other thing that's wild about them is I had a lot of very young Amish guys come work for me. And, and, and we can get into the details of that. Technically, they hadn't like committed to the Amish church, so they weren't technically Amish yet, but -

   16. JRJoe Rogan17:19

       Oh, was it the rumspringa thing?

   17. CGCliff Gray17:21

       Yeah, they would be kind of-

   18. JRJoe Rogan17:22

       Yeah.

   19. CGCliff Gray17:22

       ... in that, in that process.

   20. JRJoe Rogan17:23

       For people who don't know, they have like a, a time period, a v- indefinite time period, where they're allowed to just-

   21. CGCliff Gray17:28

       Right.

   22. JRJoe Rogan17:28

       ... run around and party and do drugs and, and-

   23. CGCliff Gray17:31

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan17:31

       ... and sleep around. And then they have to come back to the church if they want to.

   25. CGCliff Gray17:36

       Right. And when they came out to my place, they didn't do any of that stuff other than work, you know? But-

   26. JRJoe Rogan17:41

       Wink. (laughs)

   27. CGCliff Gray17:43

       (laughs) But anyways, they, they, uh, they would come out, and, um, what I noticed, man, is if you take an 18-year-old Amish guy and you're just doing stuff around ... like ranch, 'cause we, you know, we were outfitting and guiding a lot of the time, but we also had to manage the livestock. And we had kind of a ranch that we had to take care of. Those guys at 18, they know a ton 'cause they already been w- ... they've already been working for seven years. You know what I mean? They know how to frame a door. You know, they ... You know, they, they, they could show up to my place, Joe, and like they're be ... They'll ... They're wearing sandals and shorts. And you're thinking like, "This guy's never been around livestock," and you be like, "Hey, man, go grab that mule and saddle it," every single one of them knew how to do it, because they grow up, they grow up catching horses and, you know, putting them on a buggy every day.... you know? So it's pretty, it's just, it's just wild that they learn all these skill sets that, you know, really early on.

   28. JRJoe Rogan18:39

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CGCliff Gray18:39

       So in some ways, like, I don't... You know, from an education standpoint, w- w- none of them had a hard time communicating with me or, you know, we always could get through all that. You know, did they have, did they, maybe they didn't have as good a spelling or they didn't have as good of, like, algebra skills or something because they missed out on some of that education maybe. But I can tell you from a work ethic and like a s- like a hands-on skill set, they're amazing, man. Like-

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:03

       Yeah, that's in education too.
6. 25:19 – 30:28

   The realities of camp life: silage smells, manure, predator scat, and dog behavior

   1. JRJoe Rogan25:19

      When you drive to them, you also drive through the fucking, um, the areas where they raise cattle. It was the worst smell, you know.

   2. CGCliff Gray25:28

      Oh, where the Amish were raised.

   3. JRJoe Rogan25:30

      I don't think it was Amish, no. The, well, that, that didn't have anything to do with Amish. That was just cattle raising. I think that was like-

   4. CGCliff Gray25:35

      Okay.

   5. JRJoe Rogan25:36

      I think that was like... I don't know whether it was factory farming, what, what kind of farming.

   6. CGCliff Gray25:41

      It might've been, like, the, I know they, uh, they feed a lot of silage.

   7. JRJoe Rogan25:45

      Hmm.

   8. CGCliff Gray25:45

      You know, like, like, you know, processed, feed, feed that's been basically fermenting, and that's what that smell is a lot of the time.

   9. JRJoe Rogan25:52

      Oh, really?

   10. CGCliff Gray25:53

       Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan25:53

       That makes sense, because it wouldn't be the cow itself.

   12. CGCliff Gray25:56

       Yeah, yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan25:56

       I mean, if the slaughterhouse smelled that bad.

   14. CGCliff Gray25:56

       Do you know what si- do you know what silage, do you know what silage smells like?

   15. JRJoe Rogan25:59

       Mm-mm. No, I don't. I don't know what silage smells like.

   16. CGCliff Gray26:00

       So a lot of times when you're driving, you'll see, like, uh, you'll see, like, tarps. You see, like, there'll be cattle. You see it by dairies a lot of the time. There'll be cattle there, and then you'll see, like, these, these tarps laying out. And what that is, is they've got hay underneath it and they ferment it, and it's silage, and then they feed it to the cattle. And it's-

   17. JRJoe Rogan26:18

       Is the fermenting on purpose, to give them-

   18. CGCliff Gray26:21

       Yeah.

   19. JRJoe Rogan26:21

       ... more, um, probiotics?

   20. CGCliff Gray26:23

       Yeah, I think... So, I'm not an expert about, on it, on it, Joe. But, um, I think part of it is it just makes it more palatable so they can, I think, just consume enough calories to get-

   21. JRJoe Rogan26:34

       Oh, interesting.

   22. CGCliff Gray26:35

       And then it, there-, I'm sure there's some nutritional aspect to it too. I'm, I'm just, I just don't know the details of it.

   23. JRJoe Rogan26:39

       That makes sense, that it would s- that it's why it would stink so bad. Because I thought it was just death.

   24. CGCliff Gray26:44

       Yeah.

   25. JRJoe Rogan26:45

       You know, because in the time when I was driving to f- to see my folks, I think it was the 90s. Pretty sure it was the 90s. So, like, I wasn't that hip to that stuff anyway. I just thought it was just a stinky dead area.

   26. CGCliff Gray26:58

       Yeah, I gotchu. Sure.

   27. JRJoe Rogan26:58

       Where they, they raise cows.

   28. CGCliff Gray27:00

       Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you.

   29. JRJoe Rogan27:01

       But Christ, it stunk. I couldn't imagine living there. Because the problem with, uh, olfactory senses is you only detect changes in smells.

   30. CGCliff Gray27:09

       Oh, yeah.
7. 30:28 – 47:55

   Colorado wolf reintroduction: numbers, ballot politics, and who pays the price

   1. JRJoe Rogan30:28

      Do y- Well, what do you think about they're bringing wolves to Colorado? Do you have an opinion on that?

   2. CGCliff Gray30:33

      Yeah, man. I, uh, I got lots of opinions about it. I mean, so it's gonna happen for sure.

   3. JRJoe Rogan30:39

      Yeah.

   4. CGCliff Gray30:40

      You know? Um... Oh, man. We, we could, we could dive deep into this one, Joe.

   5. JRJoe Rogan30:46

      It's an interesting thing.

   6. CGCliff Gray30:48

      Yeah. So-

   7. JRJoe Rogan30:48

      'Cause I feel like, as a person who has spent some time in the woods, not nearly as much as you, but I've spent enough time that I understand what the woods are. I understand what the wild is, and I don't think most people do. I don't... I think people have a very goofy idea of what the wild is.

   8. CGCliff Gray31:06

      Right.

   9. JRJoe Rogan31:07

      Like, animals living in a way that they've lived for thousands of years, and you just happen to be there. And if you weren't there, it would take place exactly as you witness it-

   10. CGCliff Gray31:19

       Right.

   11. JRJoe Rogan31:19

       ... without you being there. It's like you have almost no influence on it. They are, they are wild. They are living in the woods, and wolves are dominant, intelligent, calculating predators-

   12. CGCliff Gray31:30

       Yeah.

   13. JRJoe Rogan31:31

       ... that they eradicated from the West for a reason.

   14. CGCliff Gray31:34

       Yeah. Yeah, man. So I think you hit on a bunch of things that were, like, bring me back to my opinion on it, and that's that (sighs) a lot of this stuff, when you, when... So, I know they, they've basically described two different areas in Colorado where they're going to put the two... uh, or the, uh, the two first sets of transplants, and one of them is, like, right in where you're not... I mean, I rode that country with a horse, like, all over the place. And the circle of where they're going to put those wolves is right there. So I know where they're going to put those, you know, one of the spots. It, I know the, the spot intimately. I know the wildlife there intimately.

   15. JRJoe Rogan32:12

       How many wolves are they gonna put in?

   16. CGCliff Gray32:14

       So my understanding is, off the bat, the first year, and I, and I, I believe their goal is by December of this year, um, it's gonna be, like, between 15 and 30, I believe is the first bunch. And they're going to have them in two different, two different spots. But in that, you know, in that Vail, Vail corrdor- corridor, you know, up to the Flattops in there, uh, you know, so they're probably gonna put 15 to 20 wolves in there. The thing, the thing that you hit on, Joe, that I think kind of forms my opinion is... I mean, these areas, when you go in them, man, they seem so wild, right? Like, you know, I could... The Flattops, I could get on a horse, and I could ride for 15, 15 hours and not see a, a road, you know, or 10 hours and not see a road. And they seem so wild, even to me being there. But I don't think that pe- people realize how much, how much humans have already affected that landscape, and how it doesn't matter. Like, the, this myth that putting wolves back in the lan- that landscape is going to turn it back to some ecosystem that was here, you know, 300 years ago, I, I, I think it's, I think it's a figment of their imagination, man. And, and the reason I say that is because I've also spent a fair amount of time in British Columbia that seemed so much more wild to me. And let, uh, let me kind of, like, give you context of, of why that is. You know, you've... Have you ever been to Vail?

   17. JRJoe Rogan33:49

       Colorado?

   18. CGCliff Gray33:50

       Colorado.

   19. JRJoe Rogan33:50

       No.

   20. CGCliff Gray33:51

       Yeah, okay.

   21. JRJoe Rogan33:51

       Oh, I, I have, but not, not, like, outside, not in the wild-

   22. CGCliff Gray33:54

       Okay, so-

   23. JRJoe Rogan33:55

       ... wilderness.

   24. CGCliff Gray33:55

       Like, if you look at, if you look at the dynamic of that area, there's a huge highway that goes from, uh... Highway 70 that goes from Denver on the front range up, you know, past all the ski resorts into Vail, into Eagle, and then it kind of goes down through a big, the... canyon, Glenwood Canyon, and kicks back into, to Aspen. The, all the winter range there is split by this massive highway, and then that highway has a, an eight-foot game fence along the whole, whole thing. And then, you know, along that Vail valley where they're wanting to put, put these, or where they are going to put these wolves, you know, there's, you know, 50,000 full-time residents. And, you know, there's probably double that in the high season, ski season stuff. Plus you got these huge ski resorts. I guess what I'm getting at is when somebody tells me that the low-hanging fruit to kind of re-wild that area is wolves, it's just bullshit. You know what I mean? It's not-

   25. JRJoe Rogan34:53

       How is it getting passed, though?

   26. CGCliff Gray34:55

       Well, it got passed by a ballot initiative. You know, the, uh, the ballot initiative is how wolves got, you know, uh, got to the situation they are now. And basically what the ballot initiative did is it forced the CPW to take on this goal of transplanting the, the wolves. So it wasn't the CPW's choice. And they, and they... You know, there's a... I don't know the exact laws, uh, Joe, but the, the CPW, and that's the Colorado's Parks, the Colorado Parks and Wildlife, they're in charge of managing the wildlife in Colorado.

   27. JRJoe Rogan35:31

       How can they put something like the transplanting of wolves, a very complex biological problem. I mean, it's, you're, you're dealing with biology and wildlife. How can they put that as a ballot initiative? Like, how can they put that in the hands of people other than wildlife conservation experts, wildlife biologists?

   28. CGCliff Gray35:57

       Well, I mean, the reality is our laws, our laws allow that, you know what I mean?

   29. JRJoe Rogan36:01

       Yeah, but it's just-

   30. CGCliff Gray36:01

       It doesn't make rational sense-
8. 47:55 – 59:34

   ‘How Wolves Change Rivers’ under the microscope + Yellowstone elk history and genetics

   1. CGCliff Gray47:55

      But I, I almost feel like... Are you familiar with the, uh, i- I believe the, the name of the YouTube video is Why Wolves Change Rivers.

   2. JRJoe Rogan48:05

      Yeah, yeah, I've seen that.

   3. CGCliff Gray48:06

      Something like that, yeah.

   4. JRJoe Rogan48:06

      But that guy-

   5. CGCliff Gray48:07

      And-

   6. JRJoe Rogan48:07

      Do you know the guy-

   7. CGCliff Gray48:08

      Yeah.

   8. JRJoe Rogan48:08

      ... who made that? He's a fan of wilding, and he wants-

   9. CGCliff Gray48:12

      Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan48:12

       ... to bring, like, lions to the UK.

   11. CGCliff Gray48:16

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   12. JRJoe Rogan48:16

       Like, he's fucking insane.

   13. CGCliff Gray48:17

       Yeah. He'll, like, like... There's no limit to this logic of this, like, trophic cascade idea.

   14. JRJoe Rogan48:23

       Yes.

   15. CGCliff Gray48:24

       Yeah. Well, what's crazy to me, man, is like... So if you watch that, that, that video, and it's got like 50 million views on YouTube or something like that. It's narrated by a guy that's... Uh, yeah, I mean, it's, it's really well done, and you just-

   16. JRJoe Rogan48:37

       Yes.

   17. CGCliff Gray48:37

       It's just cool to watch. But you watch it... I mean, if you listen to the first 90 seconds, there's like a... And the reason I bring this video up is 'cause I actually think that this video was the start of what happened in Colorado, was a lot of people watched this and they're like, "Yeah, it makes sense. You get this predator in here, it fixes all the problems, you know, with the range."

   18. JRJoe Rogan48:56

       Balances things out and-

   19. CGCliff Gray48:57

       Yeah, brings everything, everything back. But in that video, man, in the first 90 seconds...... there's a bald-faced lie. They say, I don't know what it is-

   20. JRJoe Rogan49:06

       You wanna play it? Should we play it?

   21. CGCliff Gray49:08

       Yeah, yeah. Let's, let's play it and I'll, and I can-

   22. JRJoe Rogan49:09

       How Wolves Change Rivers.

   23. CGCliff Gray49:11

       Yeah.

   24. JRJoe Rogan49:11

       Yeah. It's, um, the guy behind it is, is very controversial. I mean, I think it's interesting. I think it's interesting that he has such a passion towards these animals. But this guy leg- legitimately thinks wilding and re-wilding is the way to go for everything. Let's play it.

   25. CGCliff Gray49:27

       Right.

   26. NANarrator49:29

       (Wolves howling)

   27. JRJoe Rogan49:29

       Woo.

   28. CGCliff Gray49:30

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan49:32

       That's how they get you, the beautiful sound of the night.

   30. CGCliff Gray49:34

       Yeah. Yeah. And plus, the guy's accent, you'll see, man.
9. 59:34 – 1:25:20

   Grizzlies and black bears: uncertainty, roaming distances, and a close-call cub story

   1. JRJoe Rogan59:34

      Do you know Adam Greentree?

   2. CGCliff Gray59:36

      Uh, I don't know him personally. I know of him.

   3. JRJoe Rogan59:38

      Adam filmed a grizzly bear in the San Juans.

   4. CGCliff Gray59:42

      Yeah. Whi- which is, which is possible, man. Do you, do you know the history of the last, uh, grizzly bear that they, that they saw in there?

   5. JRJoe Rogan59:49

      No.

   6. CGCliff Gray59:50

      Oh, man. I don't want to get the dates and stuff messed up. But it was weird. It, it ... And I ... It's just, uh, to tie onto your story. I ... They said they were extinct, they weren't around, and then a bow hunter went in there. I want to say like 15 years after they said they were extinct. And he went in there, and he got mauled by one, and he came out, and he's like, "Look, I just killed a grizzly bear. You're ... I mean, I'm telling you I did." And they said, "No, no way. You didn't." And they went back in there with him, and sure enough, he had. I got ... You have to look up the exact story, because I'm sure I kinda butchered it.

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:00:27

      Here it is. In 1979, Ed Wiseman, a Colorado hunting guide crossed paths with a grizzly bear during an exhibition, uh, expedition rather, near the headwaters of the Navajo River. Wiseman was attacked and mauled.

   8. NANarrator1:00:39

      Oh, I wasn't doing that.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:00:41

      What? What happened? Uh, but while he was down, he managed to fa-

   10. NANarrator1:00:45

       Oh, my God.

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:00:45

       What the fuck is this? Is this like-

   12. CGCliff Gray1:00:47

       (laughs)

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:00:47

       What is up with his website?

   14. CGCliff Gray1:00:48

       It's loading a picture, and then it's changing. It's loading right here.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:00:49

       Oh, I see.

   16. CGCliff Gray1:00:50

       Uh-huh.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:00:50

       It's just a shitty website.

   18. NANarrator1:00:52

       It's right here.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:00:53

       Um, but while he was down, he managed to fatally m- wound the bear by hand using an arrow.

   20. CGCliff Gray1:01:00

       Wild.

   21. JRJoe Rogan1:01:02

       A fucking arrow.

   22. CGCliff Gray1:01:03

       But look, man, I ... So they're, they, they said they'd been extinct for like 20 or 30 years already, and then-

   23. JRJoe Rogan1:01:09

       How the fuck do they know?

   24. CGCliff Gray1:01:10

       (laughs)

   25. JRJoe Rogan1:01:10

       Here's the thing. Like, that kind of talk is so wild. Like-

   26. CGCliff Gray1:01:13

       Yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan1:01:13

       Oh, so are you ... Do ... Are you out there with cameras in every fucking acre of that land?

   28. CGCliff Gray1:01:18

       Yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan1:01:18

       Shut up. You don't know. Like you should-

   30. CGCliff Gray1:01:20

       Yeah.

Episode duration: 2:38:46