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Joe Rogan Experience #2028 - Jermey Corbell & George Knapp

Jeremy Corbell is an investigative filmmaker, UFOlogist, artist, and author. George Knapp is an investigative reporter, weekend host of Coast to Coast AM, and author. http://www.extraordinarybeliefs.com/ http://www.8newsnow.com/author/george-knapp/

Joe RoganhostGeorge KnappguestJeremy Corbellguest
Jun 27, 20242h 54mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 3:13

    Disclosure momentum vs. disinformation fears

    1. NA

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

    2. JR

      The Joe Rogan Experience.

    3. NA

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays)

    4. JR

      Hello, George.

    5. GK

      Hey, Joe.

    6. JR

      Hello, Jeremy. What's up? Good to see you guys.

    7. GK

      Hey, man.

    8. JR

      The two musketeers at the front lines of UFO disclosure. (laughs) It is, uh, scary if that's true, Joe. (laughs)

    9. GK

      I think you guys are. I mean, uh, you're, you're certainly prominent.

    10. JR

      Can I get the mic turned up on this bad boy?

    11. GK

      Yeah, there's a little thing, uh, right there.

    12. JR

      Oh, shit.

    13. GK

      You get to hear your own voice. There's a volume knob right there.

    14. JR

      Excellent.

    15. NA

      We're up, we're up.

    16. GK

      It's exciting times.

    17. JR

      It is. It's very exciting times.

    18. GK

      I've said it a few times that I'd never thought I would see it in my life, you know. I would just keep plugging away for... This is my 36th year doing this, chasing this crazy story. I never thought it would make this much progress. Still a long way to go, but...

    19. JR

      Are you apprehensive at all that some of the stuff that they're releasing is bullshit? Of course. (laughs)

    20. GK

      Of course.

    21. JR

      W- w- w- who, who, who's releasing?

    22. GK

      I mean, when you see these, uh, these... The Pentagon's talking about it, when, you know, uh, intelligent officials. You ever wonder whether or not it's disinformation?

    23. JR

      Yeah, I'll... You wanna?

    24. NA

      Yeah, go ahead.

    25. JR

      So yeah, I'll take that first. Um, yeah, I've heard you kinda talk about that a bunch.

    26. GK

      Yes.

    27. JR

      You know? And I think it's a very healthy suspicion to have. Uh, my perspective is a little different, in that people are always coming at me with fake information, like, every day, all the time. But the people in government that we have been able to kind of, um, (clicks tongue) interface with, I wish there was an adult in the room. I wish that this was orchestrated through the media. It would give me some sort of hope that someone has some sort of control on this, and that has not been my experience.

    28. GK

      Okay, what is your exper- like, what are you, what's your impression of how it's all happening?

    29. JR

      It's a big question. I, I don't know where to start on that. But I, just, here's what I know. I know that there are people in government that want some level of disclosure on whatever this is, without defining it. Just, there should be oversight. So, I know that to be true. There are good people that think that people are running amok and there must be oversight, not just financially, but if these types of technologies actually exist?

    30. GK

      Right, who's in control of them and why?

  2. 3:13 – 4:31

    Why secrecy persists: stigma, politics, and oversight turf wars

    1. JR

      What resistance is there to this information getting out? There's resistance on, like, multiple levels. So, despite what you believe to be true or not true, the, the big question is, are we going to be able to verify some of these claims? That, that's all I care about, right? If we're back engineering some of these craft, uh, then I, I believe that we should, we should have the discovery process to find out if things like what David Grusch has said under oath, that he has literally put his wellbeing and his safety on the line for, if that is true, then we have a duty to find out. So, the pushback comes from many levels. There's stigma. It's fucking huge, dude. Like, it, it is political toxicity for some of these senators to even... You know, people don't wanna k- they don't want me to say I ever talked with them. It's like a, it's like a, it's like a toxic environment politically, the UFO thing-

    2. GK

      Because everybody thinks it's bullshit or you're a loon if you believe it.

    3. JR

      E- just-

    4. GK

      But not everybody, but quite a few people.

    5. JR

      Not ch- just that. It doesn't help you get reelected, man.

    6. GK

      Right.

    7. JR

      And then when you start poking the bear and going into the oversight committees and the Senate Intelligence Committee and the, you know, all these things, they're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is our territory. Why are you, uh, as Congress, pushing on us? Why are you doing that? Like, w- this is our job. We have clearances."

    8. GK

      Right.

    9. JR

      So, there's that, that kinda pushback to it.

  3. 4:31 – 6:32

    Origins of the cover-up: 1947, Roswell, and fear of consequences

    1. GK

      You look back at the beginning of the cover-up, you know. Wh- why did it happen? Why did it start? Well, we, if 1947, this gigantic wave of UFOs suddenly appear. You got, uh, Kenneth Arnold, you got Roswell, hundreds of sightings all over. We'd just come outta World War II and our military is faced with a new threat that they really don't know what the hell it is. They start looking at it and trying to figure it out, but they can't. So, they sort of painted themselves into a corner w- of secrecy. Nobody wants to admit if you're a, a president or chairman of the Joint Chiefs, "There's something flying in our atmosphor- atmosphere and we can't control it. We can't even, we can't even catch it, we can't detect it on radar. There's not much we can do." They don't wanna admit that. Secondly, I think, uh, what was told to me by, um, a Senate Intelligence guy who was a chief staffer who oversaw black budget operations, he had come out to Area 51 looking into the Lazar stuff years ago, early '90s. And he told me, "Look, if this is true, if this cover-up is going on, if they are diverting millions of dollars, maybe hundreds of millions of dollars, from legitimate national security programs to keep this cover-up going..." as he suspected there were, "... then somebody's gonna go to prison." When it comes out, they'd go to prison. Um, I think you heard, we heard Dave Grusch speaking before this House committee, uh, in late Jan- July, uh, in which he talked about special access programs, hundreds of millions of dollars being funneled into them, nothing ever comes out, Congress has no oversight, Congress doesn't even know they exist. That's the kinda thing that could send somebody to prison if, if and when it comes out. And then the final reason, uh, we can only speculate about it, maybe there really is a big secret.I wonder about it. If, if I was told, "Here's the real deal. Here's what's gonna happen if this comes out. Society will collapse, it is so overwhelming, so disturbing, that it would hit the fan that everybody'd freak out." Maybe there is something like that, I don't know. Um, but it c- it gets dangerous for us to allow military folks to decide, "I can know it, but you can't. Dad can know, but Mom and the kids can't know." I d- I don't like that, you know?

    2. JC

      Yeah, I don't-

    3. GK

      I'd like to be able to know myself.

  4. 6:32 – 10:33

    Societal shock and “conditioning”: Brookings study and culture as prep

    1. JC

      I don't like it either, but why do they think that society would collapse?

    2. GK

      There was a Brookings Institution, uh, Institute study that was done in 1960-

    3. JC

      (laughs)

    4. GK

      ... where they looked at it, and, uh, well, let's say it was confirmed, that we came out and admitted that extraterrestrials are here, and they speculated, in looking at sociological matters, that social institutions would collapse. People would, d- people wanna still pay their taxes, that they wanna go to work. It was so, so overwhelming, uh, th- the fact that we, a lesser species, have been discovered by something more intelligent. We know from human history how that works out. When the Europeans come to North America, we, we know what happens to the people who were already here, the less developed society. They collapsed, they were wiped out. Um, and I think that that was the projection of that study. The only way to get around that, they said, is to pre- to prepare for it over a long period of time, to condition folks to get ready for it. And I don't know if there was ev- ever a policy where they instituted that, but it kinda looks like it. All the U- UFO and alien movies and TV shows and X Files this and books and reports and children's cartoons, it almost looks like we've been conditioned to get ready for it over the last 60 years.

    5. JC

      When people talk about the possibility of these being some sort of black ops creation by the Defense Department, some sort of weapons-grade drone that moves at insane speeds with some unknown technology that they've developed in secrecy, that kind of falls apart when you go back to '47. If you go back to '47, and you're seeing these vehicles that are behaving in a very similar way, or at least described in a very similar way, where they just jet off at insane rates of speed, no visible means of propulsion, no sound, that, that's the one thing that brings me back. Like, God, they, they seem to act the same, at least some of them do. They seem to be r- and if we're talking about 1947, we can really safely assume that they did not have drone technology capable of, you know, super hypersonic speeds at that time.

    6. JR

      I'm really glad you mentioned that, because that, that is some- that is a big part of the issue here, is like people can just say, "Oh, this is really special projects that are b- even being hidden by our own, our own government." The thing is, the UFO phenomenon has been ubiquitous. It's been everywhere in the world, and it, it's b- it, it's been going on before 1947. So somebody had that technology. Now, I, I, I hope, I, I do hope we've had some sort of ability to get derivative technologies. I know they've been trying to do that if we believe the core concept, that we have craft that's more advanced than ours that we're trying to reverse engineer. So the fact you bring that up, and I wanna touch on what you just said, the explanation I've been given, we've both been given, is that there are true national security concerns about this technology, that the cover-up or whatever, that it has to do with what will happen if we make a, a breakthrough in this technology and that can be weaponized. So the secrecy, you could say, might ... (sighs) I mean, some people have convinced us, have tried to convince us that there's real, true national security issues with this, in that once you admit one thing, those next questions are gonna come. And maybe we can't answer those yet. We don't know. So, so that's the fear is like, it's like the Oppenheimer movie. Like, you know, shit's been kept pretty secret, but stuff has come out. It's like, what happens if we admit the fundamental truth, that there are craft of unknown origin that are more advanced technologically than ours? Doesn't matter where they're from. Wh- what, what happens if we admit that? So people are concerned, from my opinion, within government, that if they let that out, the follow-up, they're not gonna be able to deal with.

  5. 10:33 – 12:41

    The paper trail: Twining memo, long-running investigations, and a tech race

    1. GK

      This technology has been seen throughout human history on every continent, in every culture for as far back as humans have been around. Uh, that is not our technology that was flying around pre-1947. Look, Dave Fravor was here, in this chair, Joe, talking to you, and he said, he talked about the Tic Tac incident from 2004. As he testified before Congress in late July, we didn't, we didn't have that technology then to do what the Tic Tac did. We don't have it now. Uh, we don't have it. If you look back at the paper trail, this is what got me hooked on this topic in the begin with. I, I can't go out and find UFOs. I don't know the cosmic, uh, meaning of all this stuff, but there is a paper trail within our government, documents, memos, reports that were generated by the Department of Defense before the Freedom of Information Act existed, before they had to worry about the public ever seeing these reports. Those documents paint a pretty clear picture. General Nathan Twining, who became Chief of the Air Force, he was also the first Air Force guy to be the, uh, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. He wrote this document in 1947, the Twining mem- memo, where he talks about these things are not fictitious or v- uh, imaginary. They're real, and they're not ours, and we don't think they're the Russians either. It's, it's not our technology. We wish we had it.

    2. JC

      How did he des- I'm sorry. How did he describe it?

    3. GK

      It's not fictitious or imaginary, it's real.

    4. JC

      But how did he describe the crafts or what they, how they behaved?

    5. GK

      Metallic. Uh, they can, they can appear and disappear. We can't detect them on our sensors, whatever, I think is, it was radar back then, that they can outs-fly our best planes, uh, fly circles around us. There's nothing we can do about them, that we have no defense mechanism against them. Um, and then there's... The paper trail starts there. There was a study by the FBI and the US Army in 1948. Then the CIA, after it was created, got involved. They've been studying this stuff for a long time, and the documents where they speak to each other...... very frankly. This is real, it's not us. As the 1960, they put out a memo saying, "This is serious business. You know, we need to figure this out." I think there are inescapable national security implications for this technology. I ... There is a race for it. We're trying to get it, the Russians are trying to get it, the Chinese are trying to get it. Whoever gets it, they win, you know?

  6. 12:41 – 17:31

    Russia deep dive: Soviet UAP program, shootdowns, and satellite tracking claims

    1. JC

      Is ... Uh, are there some sort of reports about the Russians and the Chinese also having recovered crafts?

    2. JR

      Dude, he smuggled a ton of classified documents out of Russia himself during glasnost and perestroika. He went and met with the heads of the UFO programs for, uh, in Russia, during that time period. He came back with all those documents and actually supplied them to some people. Like that, that happened to him.

    3. GK

      Yeah, it had a lot to do with Harry Reid's decision to go ahead and support funding, uh, because those documents show that the Russians are trying to do what we're trying to do, which is to take this stuff apart and figure out how it works.

    4. JC

      In what year was this?

    5. GK

      This is 1993, the first time I went.

    6. JC

      Okay.

    7. GK

      But their, their study lasted ... They had the biggest study in the history of the world from '78 to '88. The USSR sent out a, an order to every military unit in the vast Soviet Empire that any UFO, any orb, any ball of light, anything weird in the sky, all has to be investigated, and that f- information had to be funneled to the Ministry of Defense, to the desk of a guy named Colonel Boris Sokolov, who was in charge of this program. And I met him, and he shared a lot of that information with me and he admitted, "We're trying to figure this stuff out because if we could duplicate that technology, we could kick your ass in terms of stealth. We, we could beat you at, at your own game on stealth technology." So, they were trying to do it. They're trying to figure it out. Um, we heard bits and pieces that they have recovered crashes as well. So do the Chinese, maybe the Israelis. Uh-

    8. JR

      I mean, also in these documents, so ... And can you tell, um, who you gave 'em to, that whole stuff? Can you tell me?

    9. GK

      Uh, they got into the hands of the US government. Um, and then, uh, uh, that was after I came back from Russia the first time. I went back again in '96. A lot of the people who had been willin' to talk to me during glasnost ha- were now afraid. They would not meet with me. The people who had gone on camera, uh, changed their tunes because the whole country had changed in that time period. But the documents also went to AAWSAP, that's the program that the DIA ran. Bigelow was the, was the, uh, contractor for it. And they hired a bunch of Russians to go through those documents, figure out the structure of the Russian, um, UFO program, and, and did a lot more analysis than I could do just by myself.

    10. JR

      And in these documents, they, they talked about shoot down attempts, which is something that we'll be hearing more about over the next 15 weeks, I hope. So in Russia, they had this policy at first to engage these things and they lost pilots.

    11. GK

      Yeah. They had 40 different incidents during that study where, uh, Russian war planes chased UFOs. Three of those cases, the UFOs turned around and shot 'em down. They disabled the planes and the planes crashed. Two of those pilots died, and after the third crash, the Russian Ministry of Defense put out the order, "Leave 'em alone. They may have, quote, incredible capacities for retaliation. Just leave 'em alone."

    12. JR

      A- and one last thing about that blew my mind. We did a episode about this, like him going to Russia, the whole thing. They talked about, in those documents, that they knew how many satellites that we had dedicated to looking for UFOs. Is, is that correct?

    13. GK

      Yeah. Yeah, I, I met this Russian scientist who had worked on their version of Star Wars. He lived in one of these secret cities. He'd never spoken to a, any journalist, let alone a Western journalist. And he started telling us about the, the work that they were doing. He, he, he showed me this tabletop, uh, model of a, like a laser weapon that he called the weapon of the aliens, but he said he'd been involved in the Russian space program in the earliest days. They had satellites up there that were seeing these things coming in and out of space into the Earth's atmosphere and going out. He said, "The Americans, I know that you guys had those satellites, you were seeing the same stuff we were." Their intelligence agents got information from the US, they knew we were collecting information, uh, back then. They know we're collecting it now.

    14. JC

      (inhales deeply) And when, when they say that they had jets shot down, is that ... Do we have instances of jets getting shot down in America?

    15. GK

      We do. Um, it's, it's kinda sketchy because a lot of those records, we have records of the planes going down, but not ... There's no indication that the UFOs were responsible other than the Captain Mantell incident. That's a pretty famous UFO case, uh, where he chased a UFO and then crashed. I think he might have run out of gas, and the, I think, the Air Force tried to explain he was chasing the planet Venus, which is preposterous, you know?

    16. JC

      Mm-hmm.

    17. GK

      Yeah, we have some.

    18. JR

      Yeah. The CIA actually fully funded a, a, a movie narrated by Rod Serling.

    19. JC

      Oh, wow.

    20. JR

      Uh, it's called UFOs: Past, Present or Future. And there's two versions, and you, you can find it online. This is the most incredible UFO movie of all time because it's funded by the CIA to try to apologize for that incident of saying he chased Venus. It's a cool old school documentary on UFOs n- narrated by the Twilight Zone guy.

    21. JC

      Ah. Wow.

    22. JR

      Yeah. Fact.

  7. 17:31 – 30:29

    Grusch explained: what he said under oath, DOPSR limits, and SCIF denial

    1. JC

      So w- the Russians, how many crafts have ... Like, we n- supposedly Grusch said that the United States is in possession of 12.

    2. JR

      We should, we should, uh, back up on Grusch, right? Like-

    3. JC

      Okay.

    4. JR

      He ... What, what I'm thinking is something big happened. We had these hearings, right?

    5. JC

      Right.

    6. JR

      And everybody knows Grusch 'cause they saw him for the first time during that. In those hearings, he did not say that. And so there's an important thing there, what he said and what he couldn't say during those hearings, so I am not gonna say that Grusch has ever said that. That's not in his DaP sir, like that's not authorized shit. If somebody said that, I don't know who said it. All we know, he said, was right there in that hearing.

    7. JC

      (sighs) Okay.

    8. JR

      You see what I'm saying? It's like there's a lot of rumors out there and, and I, and I don't know.

    9. JC

      So this 12-... recovered vehicles, yes.

    10. JR

      You've heard it from people and I've heard it from people.

    11. JC

      Yeah.

    12. JR

      Not from Grusch, though. You know?

    13. JC

      Okay. Okay, so I'm confused. So what has Grusch said? Grusch s- said they definitely have physical crafts?

    14. JR

      So he was really... So let me just set the scene for you with this-

    15. JC

      Okay.

    16. JR

      ... hearing thing, right? Um, so I know when people think this is like orchestrated, (laughs) man. Uh, we fought for every millimeter o- of doing that hearing, like I personally did, you know, and- and- and so did George. And the idea was, what can the public... What can we put out to the public and let everybody know this is important to us? It's the first time in history that you have Commander David Fravor, Lieutenant Ryan Graves, and then one whistleblower, a guy named David Grusch, who we- we can't validate what he said because it's all classified information. But Commander Fravor, uh, uh, friends of ours, you know, Commander Fravor, he like just told what happened to him. He chased a UFO. Then you've got Ryan Graves, who his whole squadron has been seeing these things, and you've had both on your podcast. But Grusch stood up there and he was very careful with his words, and I want people to know why. If you look at that setting, you're gonna see right behind him was, uh, a guy named Chuck, Chuck McCullough.

    17. JC

      McCollough.

    18. JR

      Chuck McCullough is the former Intelligence Community Inspector General, so like the cops of the intelligence community. And he was right behind David Grusch, who is his client, so he's representing David Grusch because David Grusch put a whistleblower complaint. He put... Yeah. And look at those two handsome guys right there.

    19. JC

      (laughs) Look at you know them.

    20. JR

      So there's, um... Yeah, this is the biggest conspiracy photo of all time. Can you imagine people seeing this and being like, "What are those idiots doing up there with him?"

    21. JC

      (laughs)

    22. JR

      But... So behind David-

    23. JC

      Look at the dude with the beard and the glasses in the back. He looks so happy.

    24. JR

      Uh, yeah, dude. (laughs)

    25. NA

      Yes, UFOs.

    26. JR

      So (laughs) I-

    27. JC

      People think that that guy with the bald head is James Clapper, by the way. I got a bunch of, um-

    28. JR

      Yeah, it wasn't.

    29. JC

      ... I think a bun- a bunch of comments that Clapper was looking at my notes during that. (laughs)

    30. Who is that guy?

  8. 30:29 – 53:27

    Reprisals and the “pushback phase”: Intercept smear, Congress resistance, and chilling effect

    1. GK

      Among the complaints they issued to try to take away his security clearance was that he had mental health issues.

    2. JR

      Yeah.

    3. GK

      So, he was suspended for a couple of months. They did a background investigation of his allegations, the allegations that have been made against him, and they cleared him, reinstated him, reinstated his security clearance. He stayed on the job for a couple more months and then retired, 'cause he s- sees the handwriting on the wall and he left. And that's when he started, um, plotting the next chapter. And now, we're seeing the backlash, uh, process firing up once again. After he testifies in front of Congress in that hearing and offers to tell them more in a classified setting, uh, and, and spill all the beans, uh, they, they gotta find a media guy to go after him. Uh, this article in The Intercept says that.

    4. JR

      Yes, uh, The Intercept did a smash piece. By the way, we already knew all about Dave Grusch's P- PTSD.

    5. JC

      Mm-hmm.

    6. JR

      And at the time, his best friend, one of his dear friends just talk- got off the phone with him, blew his own brains out, right? So he was like, drinking. He was in a bad place. The first day, day one, I talked to him. I said, "What dirt are they gonna pull up on you? If, if what you're telling me is true, they're gonna get some dirt." And he goes, "Look, man. I had PTSD. I dealt with it. I survived it. Nothing horrible happened." But, you know, he told us day one, "Man, that intercept thing was some bullshit." They, they come in and they, they try to discredit what he said because of his PTSD shit. And the thing is, that happened to Lazar. Like, if you believe or don't believe, don't care. That did happen to Lazar, too, where people tried to discredit his character to try to minimize what he's telling you.

    7. JC

      Hm.

    8. JR

      So we saw that with Dave, and that was only the visible stuff. I'm telling you, things behind the scenes that have been done to Dave and his family, it's disgusting. Like, not even just like, pull your clearance kinda shit. Like, there are people that don't want him... Th- he's an embarrassment, you know, to the Department of Defense. I- if what he's saying, he's coming outta school and he's saying, "I saw some BS." Like, they don't want that.

    9. GK

      So, we are in the pushback phase. They, they not only... The intelligence community and military folks tipped off a reporter and said, "Go look for this." And they found some police records of where he was drinking too much and was suicidal, uh, and, and that was adjudicated. Uh, it was looked at. The Department of Defense, his, his employers looked into it. He'd gone through treatment. He got past it. He was a better person, a stronger person for it. But they leaked that information to just besmirch his character, and now we see additional, uh, pushback in Congress. So, this committee that h- held this hearing into UFO/UAP matters, um, it was a sub-committee on national security of the Oversight Committee, the larger committee. Since that hearing happened, uh, the Chairman of the House Intelligence Committee got together with the Chairman of the Oversight Committee and decided no more UFO hearings in the House. Enough of that bullshit. We're not doing that anymore because, in their words, it could be an embarrassment to the Department of Defense. You're damn right it would be an embarrassment for what's gonna come out.

    10. JR

      I mean, it was a big success, you know, to have this, this publicly done. It's the first time in history that we have direct witnesses, like two pilots and then a whistleblower. It was the first time in history. We f- we fought for every millimeter of that territory to get that to happen. It was not received well by the intelligence community. You know, they did not like that that happened. And that's pretty telling to me, uh, th- that we should do it again.

    11. JC

      (laughs)

    12. JR

      Now, when Grusch first found out about this stuff, he was tasked with trying to uncover it?

    13. GK

      It was his job.

    14. JR

      It was his job. And why did they... Like, what was the suspicion? Like, what was the ir- initial impetus to get him to-

    15. GK

      Well-

    16. JR

      ... look into this stuff?

    17. GK

      It's the suspicion we've had for a long time, that there is a crash retrieval program, that we have recovered technology that is not made here, that we're trying to reverse engineer it and figure out how it works so that we can duplicate it.

    18. JR

      Right, but who- Yeah. ... who sent him? So there's a r-

    19. GK

      U- UAP Task Force. So the UAP Task Force was formally created by Congress to look into the bigger picture. Jay Stratton-

    20. JR

      And they suspected that something was wrong?

    21. GK

      Yeah. Jay Stratton was the head of it. He'd been at the Defense Intelligence Agency. He was with naval intelligence. He kept getting pulled back into the UFO arena from different jobs. Very credible guy. He was in charge of the UAP Task Force. He put together this amazing briefing document that inc- included film and video and photos of UFOs that have been gathered by the US military over the past 30 years. He'd give those presentations to Congress, to the Joint Chiefs, to defense contractors, uh, 'cause he wanted people to know about it. And as part of that job, he assigned Dave to look into special access programs. Can you find evidence of crash retrievals, reverse engineering, any of that stuff we've been hearing rumored for 30, 40 years?

    22. JR

      A- and this is really about oversight, okay? So the way I understand it from people involved is that, "Look, we have to have oversight over these types of programs and technologies." Like, "It's good we're doing them. It's good we keep it secret." Like, that's their standpoint. But they're like, "We have to have a process of oversight." Do you remember the, the Church Committee back in the '60s?

    23. JC

      Mm-hmm.

    24. JR

      Was it '60s or '70s? Um...

    25. GK

      '70s.

    26. JR

      So the Church Committee. Everybody in the intelligence agency that I know will say there's BC and AC, before the Church Committee, after the Church Committee. It, it, it basically was a way to level the playing field so there's not this type of, you know, shenanigans that are going on, the fucked up shit they learned from the Church Committee. So what they're saying now is, "Look, some stuff needs to be kept secret for national security. If we can turn some of this shit into weapon systems," right? Like, we don't want... We don't give out, uh, blueprints to make an atom bomb. We admit atom bombs are real, but we don't give out blueprints. So some of it needs to be kept secret, but they're all about oversight.... if you don't have communication between the subcontractors that are working on this exotic stuff, if it exists, we need to be aware of that. At some level, me- we meaning senate and senate intelligence committees, all that stuff, oversight. So without that oversight, you're just letting people run amok and go crazy with this stuff. And I'll tell you first hand, right, there are people that have come to me and George that are currently employed in agencies and they feel like they are being held hostage in these programs. Like, there's, there's ways to keep people in programs and to not let them out by dangling this, like, "Well, what are you gonna do if you lose your clearances? You gonna go work at Home Depot?" You know, that's, that's the way that, that I've heard some people describe to me and George of why they're so terrified right now, is because their whole lives, their wives, their dogs, their children are all dependent upon these little faction groups kinda keeping them in a program. If that's true, that's fucking horrible.

    27. GK

      And what just happened to Dave Grusch, the sliming of Dave Grusch by this, uh, this really pretty poorly researched, uh, article is an example to all them.

    28. JR

      Yeah.

    29. GK

      Anybody out there as a whistleblower, you're thinking of coming forward and spilling the beans, this could happen to you. Did you ever have an affair? Uh, did you ever have a, an out-of-wedlock kid? Did you have a drug problem? Because whatever it is, we'll find it and it'll come out.

    30. JC

      It's interesting that they would use PTSD to discredit him for a war veteran.

  9. 53:27 – 56:43

    Disclosure through law: NDAA language, review boards, and eminent domain

    1. JR

      the legislation that was put into the National Defense Authorization Act ... I know that's not a word that normal people gonna understand or hear about often, but I've, I've become educated on it. So the National Defense Authorization Act of 2024, it ends up being signed, hopefully by Biden. Any president has to sign it, and also the, uh, Intelligence Authorization Act. So the language that they put into these is all people need to know, because they wouldn't fabricate this out of thin air, and they wouldn't spend resources on creating this language if they didn't have more than a good suspicion that we have this kinda tech and that we're trying to reverse engineer it. It's online. Anybody can look at Schumer, I think, put out a big, uh, bill, and then there was an amendment to it. And if you read this language, they're like, any of these non-terrestrial craft ... I mean, they are so thorough. They're like, "If they're being hidden in private technology, we're cutting off your funding." So th- they've got a, a carrot and a stick approach. I've talked to some of the people that formed this language. Right? So what they're saying is ... The carrot is, "If you come forward within, I think, 90 days once it's signed, and you tell us that you have technologies that are not from here, then there'll be no penalty to you. If you don't tell us-"... your funding i- i- is cut. We're gonna find out your funding is cut." So it's like a carrot and a stick kind of thing.

    2. GK

      Hmm.

    3. JR

      If you read this language, it's, it's, it's almost insane to read, because they know that there are these programs. Now, where the craft or things that they're working on are from, you know, how do we, how do we even get there to know that? I don't know. But, but they do know that we have this shit, these craft of unknown origin.

    4. GK

      They used the, the term non-human intelligence in that legislation 26 times. I mean, it's astonishing. There's this Senate Majority Leader, Chuck Schumer, standing up there in a nod to his late mentor, Harry Reid, saying, "We're gonna get to the bottom of this stuff and it's real." And he acknowledges that, uh, that legislation was crafted with the White House's cooperation. So it's the Biden administration, somebody in that administration signed off on this. It's astonishing.

    5. JR

      People don't like it though. Like if you're in the IC and, and you've got these like secret, you know, programs that... Or if you're like, let's say with Lockheed, let's say you're Lockheed and you got some really cool thing, they might be looking to move it now, because I don't think they're really worried about funding being cut off. I think a lot of these black programs can be fund- funded asymmetrically, like in different ways than getting money right from Congress. But I'll tell you, that language tells you everything, because it, it shows you that they are taking it so seriously that they have some sort of pre-knowledge that these programs exist. In fact, they probably know where these objects are being stored. Now, you said some number. You know-

    6. GK

      Hmm.

    7. JR

      ... you and I might talk to similar people, but definitely that number's, you know, floated around. I have no idea if that's the correct number. I, I just know that they have been told where these holding facilities are. They have been told. All they gotta do is get the authority to go knock on that door and go inside.

  10. 56:43 – 1:31:52

    How do you get intact craft? Crash retrieval, ‘gifts,’ archeology, and Lazar context

    1. GK

      What is the explanation of how we acquired these crafts? There's crash retrieval, but then there's also ones that are intact. Remember, Lazar said that, uh, uh, nearly all of the ones that he saw, except for one that had a big hole in the middle of it, all looked intact. It was as if they were dug up at ar- archeological sites or they were gifts. Like throwing a, a cell phone into a chimpanzee cage. Here you go, crazy humans. Knock yourself out. Let's see how you do with this. That they're just left there for us to find and as a challenge to us, I guess.

    2. JR

      Y- yeah. I, I have the same problem as you.

    3. GK

      Yeah.

    4. JR

      Like I'm like, "These motherfuckers not crashing." (laughs) If they're coming from somewhere else, they're not crashing.

    5. GK

      Right.

    6. JR

      Um, but people will say to me, "Look, man, um, you know, we have airplane problems and sometimes even planes crash, and maybe there's other circumstances where these things could have crashed because they were hit with some technology." Maybe two of them were dog fighting. Two of these-

    7. GK

      Electrical storms.

    8. JR

      I don't know. I don't know. I was-

    9. GK

      That was the Varginha Brazil story, right?

    10. JR

      Right.

    11. GK

      There was an electrical storm. Also radar. Some people suspect that really powerful radar can, it can interfere with them.

    12. JR

      Right, 'cause some of the radars are also weaponry. That's the thing. Like, um, you can have energy, uh, reception, but also output on some things. So there's some cool devices that actually shoot like high, high laser weaponry. But the, the... My thing is I don't know if they really crashed. George is kinda edging towards maybe archeological digs, maybe gifts.

    13. GK

      Lazar said that one of them supposedly was from an archeological dig, right?

    14. JR

      Yeah.

    15. GK

      Do they know where? I thought he knew. Does he know?

    16. JR

      He was... No. He was just literally... That's one of the many things that they tried to impose upon him. But remember, they tried to impose a lot of shit on Lazar. He is so succinct with, "This is what I know to be real. I had hands on this." Now, they told him a whole bunch of crazy shit. You know-

    17. GK

      Like what?

    18. JR

      Dude, just the cr- Like, I should put that shit out. Ju- I'm just crazy... Like, I'm sorry-

    19. GK

      "We are, we are viewed by the aliens as containers of souls."

    20. JR

      I mean, you're not gonna tell a guy working on propulsion that, so he had, he had a... He, he was able to sit down for a brief time and go through a document, like a huge briefing document. In there, he saw what were, they said were, was a bio- biological biopsy of an alien. Like he, he was just... He didn't care. He was going to the propulsion part.

    21. GK

      Mm-hmm.

    22. JR

      But they told him so much wild stuff. He's like, "This has to be a joke." But then when he, he s- He differentiates. He goes, "But when I..." You can't fake, he said, "What I saw." You can't fake your hands trying to get close to the reactor and not being able to touch it. You can't fake something that big lifting like that. So he says, "I know for sure what I worked on was not from here." But he goes, "Everything else they told me, it was words on paper." And I respect that about him. And maybe they wanted him to leak it to John Lear. Remember, he's like friends with this guy John Lear who's like already on their radar. The best photo of Area 51 from lake level ever was 1977, the year I was born. John Lear is kicking it out there, stirring up shit at Area 51, taking photos. So he does a whole panoramic of photos of Area 51, sees a truck coming from a distance. Being John Lear, takes the roll, puts it under his ashtray, puts in new film, snaps it again. They confiscate his, his film. But he had some underneath his cigarette lighter whatever, and h- he actually gave those to me. So I got the, the best shot of Area 51 you'll ever see from lake level was by John Lear. Now Bob knew John. That's where all the conspiracies come in, 'cause John is like this UFO nut, the godfather of conspiracy. But when he was-

    23. GK

      How did Bob meet John?

    24. JR

      Well, this is your turf. Yeah.

    25. GK

      Yeah. Through a guy named Gene Huff, who was a- This is post-exposure, post, uh... He, he met him before he worked out there.

    26. JR

      Really?

    27. GK

      Uh, there was a guy named Gene Huff who did a real estate appraisal for, uh, John Lear's house. And, uh, Gene was friends with Bob, and they... Gene and, uh, Lear struck up a conversation, brought Bob in to the... to meet him, and, um, it was only after that that Lazar got hired out there. He would have arguments with Lear about this crazy UFO stuff.... because I'd already done a couple of interview- interviews with him in the, in the late '80s.

    28. JR

      With Lear.

    29. GK

      With Lear, before I met Lazar. So, Lazar was not a believer. He said, "I don't believe it. Poor John, he's crazy with this UFO stuff."

    30. JR

      So, this is fact, and it's so funny, like knowing all these guys, 'cause I wasn't there like he was, but I get to talk with everybody and grill them. The one- I think it was Jim Goodall that was in the car with him, he remembers Bob saying, "Oh, poor John Lear." And Jim Goodall is like, "Why?" And he's like, "'Cause he believes this UFO nonsense." So, that was where Lazar was at prior to getting the job out at the test site- Hm. ... is he didn't believe any of this nonsense. In fact, so much so that, remember, I think he told you when he first went in, they had a little decal of an American flag on the saucer, and he thought, "Oh, those idiots. Everybody thought UFOs were from outer space and they're ours," you know?

Episode duration: 2:54:42

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