The Joe Rogan ExperienceJoe Rogan Experience #2287 - Josh Dubin & J.D. Tomlinson
CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 0:58
Setting the stage: JD Tomlinson joins to revisit the “Ohio Four” case
Joe welcomes Josh Dubin and introduces former Lorain County (OH) prosecuting attorney J.D. Tomlinson, whose office controls the fate of the Ohio Four. They frame why Tomlinson’s perspective matters: he’s the rare prosecutor willing to re-open a case publicly criticized as a wrongful conviction.
- 0:58 – 3:31
Ohio Four recap: how suspects were chosen before evidence existed
Tomlinson summarizes the core injustice claim: four men were targeted early, largely due to community pressure about out-of-town drug dealing. He outlines the brutal 1990s murders of Marcia Blakey and Epps and how investigators quickly focused on the wrong people.
- 3:31 – 7:08
The informant turns case-maker: William Avery Jr.’s evolving story and extortion attempt
The case hinges on informant testimony from William Avery Jr., whose narrative repeatedly conflicts with physical evidence. Tomlinson describes Avery’s demand for money, his initial admission he “made it up,” and how his story later morphs into an eyewitness account.
- 7:08 – 11:47
Red flags ignored: Secret Service warning, later FBI recantation, and a collapsed post-conviction hearing
Tomlinson recounts a major credibility bombshell: the Secret Service warns prosecutors Avery is lying in other investigations, yet convictions proceed. Years later Avery walks into the FBI to recant; at a post-conviction hearing he refuses to testify after perjury warnings but tells reporters the men are innocent.
- 11:47 – 17:50
Why Tomlinson was hard to reach: political pressure, then a sudden call after the “Rogan effect”
Tomlinson explains he repeatedly tried to contact JD while being ignored—until the prior JRE episode aired and public pressure surged. JD calls the same day, describing intense stress and a criminal case against him, and agrees to meet, saying, “If I don’t at least meet with you, then who am I?”
- 17:50 – 32:27
JD Tomlinson’s own “lawfare” story: relationship fallout, felony charges, and exculpatory texts held until after the election
JD describes how workplace relationship drama was weaponized into three felony accusations (tampering, intimidation, bribery). He claims investigators and political rivals exploited the situation, withheld exculpatory text messages until after Election Day, and derailed his re-election campaign.
- 32:27 – 36:01
From personal case to Ohio Four focus: JD clears space, then dives into the evidence
After charges are dropped but JD loses the election, he has bandwidth to re-engage the Ohio Four case. Tomlinson describes giving a long, trial-record-driven presentation and JD re-reading transcripts, visiting the scene, and stress-testing every angle before deciding the convictions can’t stand.
- 36:01 – 48:09
System design problems: grand juries, one-sided charging, and prosecutor immunity
Joe asks whether an independent review panel could prevent “bullshit” prosecutions; the conversation turns to the grand jury’s limitations and low threshold. They argue the deeper structural issue is lack of accountability—especially prosecutorial immunity and failure to disclose exculpatory evidence.
- 48:09 – 1:02:23
The Nancy Smith & Joseph Allen exonerations: a template for courage—and the backlash it triggered
JD explains exonerating Nancy Smith and Joseph Allen (a sensational child-abuse panic case) changed his life and created enemies. He details coached-child allegations, impossible “basement” claims, and how exculpatory evidence dominated the file—plus the shock that prosecutors rarely even apologize.
- 1:02:23 – 1:16:26
The joint motion to free the Ohio Four—and the courtroom/political counterattack
Tomlinson describes filing a joint motion (defense + prosecutor) for new trials and dismissals based on new evidence (recantations and alibis). The response: press messaging by the incoming prosecutor, Attorney General involvement, contradictory judicial orders, and eventual withdrawal of the state’s motion as the new administration takes over.
- 1:16:26 – 1:24:14
Public accountability push: open hearings, public-records requests, and an invitation to Tony Sillo
Tomlinson calls for public-facing review: if there’s evidence of guilt, present it openly; if not, release the men. He outlines planned meetings, suspicious timing, public records requests to uncover communications, and newly found documents hinting alternative suspects were raised long ago.
- 1:24:14 – 1:39:08
Beyond the case file: poverty, race, caste, and how communities judge “criminal” lives
The conversation widens to how environment and inequality shape criminal behavior—and how that bias can fuel wrongful convictions, especially for people of color. Tomlinson recommends Isabel Wilkerson’s *Caste* and Joe argues society punishes symptoms of poverty instead of causes.
- 1:39:08 – 2:01:31
After exoneration: compensation fights, political futures, and closing reflections on justice vs winning
They discuss how even proven-innocent people face ongoing resistance when seeking compensation, and how politics can punish officials who correct past wrongs. The episode ends with broader reflections on humility, avoiding tribal thinking, and the need to prioritize truth over “winning.”
