Joe Rogan Experience #2295 - Scott Payne

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast,…

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays)

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:12

      Um, you've had a crazy fucking life, man.

   3. SPScott Payne0:14

      Tss.

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:14

      Like a really crazy life.

   5. SPScott Payne0:15

      That's what I'm saying.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:16

      You spent... So to get everybody up to speed right from the beginning, you spent 25 years undercover, working for the FBI in the Klan, Nazi organizations, and biker gangs.

   7. SPScott Payne0:29

      And then some, yes, sir.

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:31

      What a crazy, crazy life that is.

   9. SPScott Payne0:34

      (laughs) Yeah.

   10. JRJoe Rogan0:35

       What... First of all, how did you get... How did you first get started doing that?

   11. SPScott Payne0:40

       Uh, good question. I grew up in South Carolina. Um, played ball, all that stuff. I- I- I was always kind of a... I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, 'cause that's not it. You've had plenty of people on this show that are complete badasses. Um, but I was kind of a bully of bullies. I didn't... I always looked out for... I liked the underdog. Um, I bounced in college, uh, so I was already learning that gift of gab, um, and fight techniques, and stuff like that. And then I got... I became a cop because I- I... When I was in college, I took a course. You know, I'm tak- I'm taking electives. I went to college so I'd have four more years to figure out what I was gonna do.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:17

       Yeah.

   13. SPScott Payne1:17

       'Cause I didn't know what I was doing.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:19

       Me too.

   15. SPScott Payne1:20

       Except partying. Except, you know... (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:21

       I did three years. (laughs)

   17. SPScott Payne1:24

       (laughs) I- I was good at partying. Um, but, uh, I had an elective that was criminal justice, and, man, I really liked it. Um, psychology was always a strong thing for me, but it took a back seat, and I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology. But during those criminal justice courses, I was like... At first, for a fleeting moment, I said, "I'm gonna be an attorney. Yeah, I'll be an attorney." And then I realized, I'd be a terrible attorney.

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:51

       (laughs)

   19. SPScott Payne1:51

       I said, because if I was the defense attorney and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, "They did it." Right? That's not gonna get me any clients. And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kinison, grabbing them and going, "Say it."

   20. JRJoe Rogan2:03

       (laughs)

   21. SPScott Payne2:03

       "Say it." You know? "You did it." So I'm like, yeah, that's probably not the best role for me. And, uh, I did a ride along with cops in the, uh, in the department, and that was it. But once I got into law enforcement, I was uniform patrol for three years, uh, I was just so fascinated with undercover. I don't know what it was. I can't really remember. Doing the book, I've tried to dive back in. People ask. I don't really remember. I just know that I loved undercover movies, period. If it was a biker undercover, I don't care how cheesy it was, I love them all.

   22. JRJoe Rogan2:35

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SPScott Payne2:36

       And then one of my mentors at the sheriff's office, uh, he was actually the World's Strongest Man in the late '80s, after Kazmaier.

   24. JRJoe Rogan2:43

       Oh, wow.

   25. SPScott Payne2:43

       He was a, he was a former Marine, um, and big dude. And he, as a- as a task force, had gone... On a task force, had gone undercover in some biker gangs. And man, I just... I- I was... I wanted to be a biker. I grew up on motorcycles, and then it just started taking off from there.

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:00

       You got to think that biker gangs are probably super suspicious of people being undercover 'cause it's such a theme.

   27. SPScott Payne3:07

       (laughs) You think?

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:07

       It's been around... (laughs) Right? It's been around forever, the stories of guys infiltrating biker gangs.

   29. SPScott Payne3:12

       Right.

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:12

       It's been around forever.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   So the first undercover…

   1. SPScott Payne15:00

   2. JRJoe Rogan15:00

      So the first undercover gig, what was your, like, what was your job? Like, what were you, what were you pretending to do?

   3. SPScott Payne15:08

      The classified one? Again, it's classified.

   4. JRJoe Rogan15:10

      Okay.

   5. SPScott Payne15:10

      But I will say this. I was a security guard. Can you imagine being a cop with a cool uniform, with a real gun on your hip? And now I'm making it to the FBI and I'm working third shift as, uh, Night at the Museum, you know, with a flashlight.

   6. JRJoe Rogan15:24

      Oh, wow.

   7. SPScott Payne15:25

      But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover program, and sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already s- in or slated for an undercover.

   8. JRJoe Rogan15:36

      Mm. And so how... So you eventually work your way up to probably more and more dangerous and complicated assignments?

   9. SPScott Payne15:45

      W- what happens, at least in my, my experience, what happened with me is I get certified. Our certification school is very, very intense. Uh, I mean, I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm 99.9% sure it's still very intense. It's two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation. Not gonna give away all the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft reasons, but let's just say that, uh, I got certified in 2002. In 2003, I started role playing an assistant at the school. I probably missed a handful of schools up until the day I retired. Um, never 100% graduation rate.

   10. JRJoe Rogan16:23

       How do-

   11. SPScott Payne16:23

       I don't, I don't know of any 100% graduation, graduation rate before I got into the program. Um, and it's not hazing. You get 20 slots. Uh, so it's four groups of five. And generally, it goes like, you get some trainings during the day, and then we're running scenarios, and we're putting you into live stuff. But at day three and four, when you're really hurting for sleep, I've seen people nut out. And I... And mine are in psych. I, I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know. Maybe we were on the SWAT team together. Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away. But you go to the UC school, and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in... Uh, one of my buddies walked in, he looked like he'd been raped by a tribe.

   12. JRJoe Rogan17:10

       Wow.

   13. SPScott Payne17:10

       I, I wa- He come walking in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail- I'm like, "Are you okay?" And, uh, some people, it's just... I would say that the reason the training is like that, it's not hazing, it's just so we don't lose anybody. We try to make it as real as you can.

   14. JRJoe Rogan17:29

       Well, you got to find out who's gonna crack.

   15. SPScott Payne17:31

       Yeah. And think of this. In a real scenario, not all undercovers are like this, but in the ones I would usually do, there's gonna be a lot of times with no sleep. My skill set led me not to Wall Street. It didn't lead me to the yacht. It didn't lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscle for the mafia guy. Un- led me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy, crazy ass meth heads or just ideologies. So I get certified and then I go back and role play, and that's when people start kind of seeing, and you're try- I mean, you're trying to make a name for yourself. Um, I wasn't getting calls because on paper I'm a white guy with no foreign language. But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, "Hey, you got anything?" It's a big country.You got anything- more medium now, but I mean- (laughs)

   16. JRJoe Rogan18:21

       (laughs)

   17. SPScott Payne18:21

       ... I could even be a little country at this point, you know? But I'd be like, "Hey, you got anything for any rednecks who know foreign language?" And I'd just wear them down until they'd laugh, and then they'd finally ask me to come to the school. And once you do the school, now there's seasoned undercovers coming back, um, and they're not only there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions. And that's where I kind of started getting, getting into some things.

   18. JRJoe Rogan18:45

       It has to be one of the most exciting kinds of law enforcement.

   19. SPScott Payne18:49

       I- For me, absolutely.

   20. JRJoe Rogan18:51

       It has to be so crazy. Like-

   21. SPScott Payne18:52

       It's- We're gen- I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies.

   22. JRJoe Rogan18:59

       Yeah.

   23. SPScott Payne19:00

       I mean-

   24. JRJoe Rogan19:00

       That's got to be a gigantic rush.

   25. SPScott Payne19:03

       Yeah. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan19:06

       (laughs)

   27. SPScott Payne19:06

       They're onto us. Shh. Don't-

   28. JRJoe Rogan19:07

       I've talked to a few guys that have done that kind of work.

   29. SPScott Payne19:09

       Don't tell.

   30. JRJoe Rogan19:09

       And they always speak of it with sort of fond memories, about crazy it is.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. SPScott Payne30:00

      all wearing their colors.

   2. JRJoe Rogan30:01

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SPScott Payne30:01

      So that, uh, does, does that change my approach?

   4. JRJoe Rogan30:04

      Yeah.

   5. SPScott Payne30:05

      I, I think it does.

   6. JRJoe Rogan30:06

      Yeah.

   7. SPScott Payne30:06

      Unless you want me to go up, and as I say when I'm teaching this, I go up and I go, "What do you say?" I'm going to go, "Hey, uh, you, you boys ride?"

   8. JRJoe Rogan30:13

      (laughs)

   9. SPScott Payne30:13

      "What do you... Nothing? No? All right, fine. I'll just, I'm going to go back on the other side of the bar. Please don't beat my ass." Um, so I just...... was being loud and boisterous. It's me, that's what I do. (laughs) Uh, it doesn't always work for undercovers. Some people don't like it, but it's my personality.

   10. JRJoe Rogan30:31

       Are you allowed to get drunk?

   11. SPScott Payne30:34

       Uh, boy, that's a tricky question. Yes, I can drink. Um, but here's the thing. Uh, let's say that outlaws case, that was two years. So there's two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a Jack and Coke up, right? Um, I was, I'm an anal. Uh, even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I'm pretty tight, and I wanted to be good. I wanted to always get better and be more well-rounded. So I would watch, and even if I caught myself at 5:00 in the morning, 6:00 in the morning slurring, as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, "Dadgum it, man." And then I'd listen, and within five minutes I'd be back because you got to remember, all that could be played in front of a jury.

   12. JRJoe Rogan31:12

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SPScott Payne31:12

       And if I'm on there slurring-

   14. JRJoe Rogan31:14

       Right.

   15. SPScott Payne31:14

       ... and saying a bunch of stupid stuff-

   16. JRJoe Rogan31:15

       Right.

   17. SPScott Payne31:15

       ... I mean, how does that affect my articulation-

   18. JRJoe Rogan31:18

       Right.

   19. SPScott Payne31:18

       ... for what I was doing? Um, but was my alcohol tolerance very high?

   20. JRJoe Rogan31:23

       (laughs) You know, you're a big dude.

   21. SPScott Payne31:24

       Yeah.

   22. JRJoe Rogan31:24

       You probably put some away.

   23. SPScott Payne31:25

       I did.

   24. JRJoe Rogan31:26

       (laughs)

   25. SPScott Payne31:26

       I kind of still do. I tell you, I, I tell you what, uh, what put me on a three-month timeout with CPI. (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan31:33

       Really?

   27. SPScott Payne31:34

       Yeah. 'Cause you go down there and you get the, uh, stem cells-

   28. JRJoe Rogan31:36

       Well, let's explain it. We're talking about the Cellular Performance Institute that, uh, my friends, uh, run down in Tijuana.

   29. SPScott Payne31:42

       Absolutely. Great, great facility. Uh, I will tell you the... my previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, uh, I almost died. I had a hip replacement and it got sepsis... I got sepsis-

   30. JRJoe Rogan31:55

       (laughs)
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Me too. …

   1. NANarrator45:00

      stressed out just thinking about you doing all these things.

   2. SPScott Payne45:02

      Me too.

   3. NANarrator45:03

      So, like, how-

   4. SPScott Payne45:04

      (laughs)

   5. NANarrator45:04

      ... how long is this relationship while you're building a case? Like, how, how much time are you spending with these people?

   6. SPScott Payne45:11

      I was pro- for that case, I was probably up there every three weeks for a good week. But then there's constant contact when I'm not there. Nextels.

   7. NANarrator45:18

      Text messages.

   8. SPScott Payne45:18

      Yeah, N- Well, Nextels were big with them at that point in time. So yeah, Chirps.

   9. NANarrator45:22

      Oh, the, those, the, uh-

   10. SPScott Payne45:22

       Chirps, yeah.

   11. NANarrator45:23

       ... the old days, the walkie talkie one.

   12. SPScott Payne45:24

       Th- radio, yeah.

   13. NANarrator45:25

       Yeah, those were funny.

   14. SPScott Payne45:26

       They're like (walkie talkie sound) .

   15. NANarrator45:27

       People forgot about them walkie talkies.

   16. SPScott Payne45:28

       Yeah. Yeah, man. Uh, it was (laughs) what was crazy about that was-

   17. NANarrator45:32

       (coughs)

   18. SPScott Payne45:32

       ... you could key up and talk to somebody in Japan, and it'd be crystal clear, but if you tried to call somebody, it was the worst connection ever.

   19. NANarrator45:37

       Yeah, they were terrible phones.

   20. SPScott Payne45:38

       Yeah, but that's what they used, and that's what I got, and I was mirroring them.

   21. NANarrator45:41

       Hmm.

   22. SPScott Payne45:42

       But, uh, yeah, so you build those relationships, and it depends. Each case is different, but I will say that the tightest relationship I had on that case was Scot Town. Um, it was absolutely scary how similar we were, um, and how tight we were. Uh, now again, he didn't know I was Scot Payne, FBI undercover, but he knew I was Scott Calloway, and he knew... I mean, it, it would be to the point to where if we were going out to do an op that evening, an operation, um, they wouldn't put it in the operations plan, but they would ask, "Hey, is Scot Town going to be there tonight?" And I'm like, "Yeah." And, and even the FBI cover teams and stuff would be like, "Good," 'cause they knew that he cared enough about me, he'd take a bullet for me and protect me, and vice versa, really, for as me as Scott Calloway. And, I mean, we finished each others' sentences. We thought the same, other than the criminal stuff, uh, and some faith belief systems. But, uh, yeah, that was my tightest, and the second one over the two years was probably a guy whose road name was Clothesline, and he was the enforcer for the Taunton chapter. And then after that, it probably would've been The President, which was Joe Dogs, and then it just trickles down from there.

   23. NANarrator46:52

       Do you have conflicted feelings when you develop, like, these relationships with these guys?

   24. SPScott Payne46:57

       I did. Um, you can put on as much training, you can get the training, you can be a part of it. I'm still human, you know. Uh, now, was I to a point to where I'm gonna go, "I'm leaving the FBI, and I'm going to become a one percenter"?

   25. NANarrator47:12

       (laughs) Some people do, though, right?

   26. SPScott Payne47:14

       Uh, no. I know some people do, but I wasn't there. I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that.

   27. NANarrator47:17

       How often does that happen?

   28. SPScott Payne47:19

       Well, I don't kn- uh, in the FBI, probably not a lot, b- but those cases are well known. If something happens like that, somebody goes rogue, like, uh, you know, your breach story, and all these people selling secrets and getting people killed, yeah. I, I wasn't there. I, nor would I be. I wouldn't be. I would like to think if I did have a one percenter club, nobody would ever infiltrate it, though.

   29. NANarrator47:39

       Well, you probably understand how it works.

   30. SPScott Payne47:42

       (laughs) I'm just kidding.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:13:58

   (laughs) …

   1. SPScott Payne1:00:00

      the wall next to it. So we're down there in the basement, and when I go to write my name down, um, I forgot my middle name. And that's because I was having an oh crap moment. I had an adrenaline dump. Same thing as cops in shootouts, uh, military in shootouts, somebody in a car wreck first time. Everything... When you're having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down. You get auditory exclusion. So everything you're hearing sounds like you're underwater is going whoosh, whoosh. It's slow, like you're talking to me like this. Time dilation. Your eyes are clicking. You look and everything's in frames. Everything's slowing down. Your hamstrings get really rubbery. You feel your heart beating. You, I mean, you feel everything pulsing. Um, and what seems like 10, 15 minutes is probably 30 seconds. And that happens. That's an adrenaline dump. So that was happening. And I forgot my middle name, and I'm going Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway. I start going through this damn Rolodex in my head and I'm going, "Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway." And I'm going, "Scott Joseph." I go, "No, damn it." That was the middle, that was my middle name for another alias, you know. And I don't realize that, uh, I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence. I woulda never-... known I said it, would've never agreed I said it, had I not seen it in the recording. But I turn, and I go, "And what else do you need?" And by the way, you've got a baseline of me now, my voice. It did not sound like this on that recording. My throat was tight. The octaves were... I mean, it, it was very higher than normal, and I'm like not even enunciating that well. I'm like, "And what else do you need?" And they're like, "What?" I go, "My name and what else?" Well, now I hear them scream up, and they go, "What else do you need for that website?" So now I know, oh, they're going to Google me. Back then there was whosearatt.com, things like that. (clears throat) So I'm gathering that evidence or intelligence, and then I remember my middle name was, uh, my initials were S-A-C because I'm an idiot, and I thought it was funny because S-U... S-A-C is the head of an FBI division, and I knew I was never going to be one, so. (laughs)

   2. JRJoe Rogan1:01:56

      (laughs)

   3. SPScott Payne1:01:56

      So I made my initials S-A-C. So I remember my name's Scott Andrew Callaway, and then I write that down. Well, now I take off all my clothes. I take off my, my, my outer clothing, all my shirts. I take my boots off, and I, I basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles. Um, so pretty much naked from ankle... I mean, I'm definitely naked from ankles up. And he starts searching me, and I'm, again, I'm having an oh shit moment, and he's, he's ta... he's trying to talk to me, and, like, we've known each other for a year and a half. So I'm not saying it out loud, but if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is, "Tell me I'm okay. Is this okay?" Well, Clothesline, because we were tight, hits me back with the face, looked just like, "Everything's all right. This is just procedure." However, he didn't know that I'm an undercover agent and I'm wired. So that adds a whole nother issue. So he searches me. I think we're done. Um, he even, one point, he even tells me, he says, uh, "Trust me. If somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the fucking mouth." And I said, and those are his words, and I, I immediately said, "Well, I'm not happy." I'll tell you what I did do. I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor. And I've had people ask me, "What does that mean?" And I go, "Well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor, and they're telling you to walk on it..."

   4. JRJoe Rogan1:03:17

      They're going to cut you open.

   5. SPScott Payne1:03:18

      Yeah. You're just, just to, just to clean up the blood.

   6. JRJoe Rogan1:03:21

      Yeah.

   7. SPScott Payne1:03:21

      I didn't see that. I saw a rope. I saw pistols, and I knew I didn't have a chance in hell of getting out of there in one piece. So he, he finishes, and he's, uh, he's, he's saying something. He goes, he goes, "Wouldn't you be suspect if somebody comes to ta... your town and starts doing all this shit with you?" I said, "Yeah, if you came to me." I didn't come to you guys. Y'all called me over. Nobody has to do this shit. (laughs) I'm like, "What are we..." You know? Nobody has to do anything, right? And I think we're done. So I pull my pants back up, and I think we're done. And he grabs a piece of clothing of mine, and he starts kneading it and going through it. Now, this is 2005 to 2007-ish, so techni- technology today is way better than it was then, just like technology is. But, uh, let's just say this. Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would've felt something. And he says, as a joke, when he starts, he goes, "Hey, uh, I'm not going to find anything in here I don't want to, like some naked pictures of my old lady." And he laughs, and I... uh, his laugh is like... (laughs) And my laugh is like... (laughs) You know?

   8. JRJoe Rogan1:04:32

      (laughs)

   9. SPScott Payne1:04:32

      And then I'm watching him go down this piece of clothing, and he's doing this, and he's kneading it. And, and I... You can hear, I... Again, I don't know how I do it, but on the recording, you can hear me go, (sighs) an audible sigh, because I'm like watching it, and I'm going, "What the f- What am I gonna do?" So here's how it ends. He doesn't find it.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:04:57

       Wow.

   11. SPScott Payne1:04:59

       Almost. I mean, like, very, very close. Um, and by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up, and now I've got another adrenaline dump. And now I've come in, I'm like, "Son of a bitch," (laughs) in those peaks and valleys. And, uh, everybody that I've taught this to or spoke about it to always ask. They're like, "Man, what would you have said?" And I'll tell you. I had two responses. Because I'm a jovial idiot, my first response, if he would have said, "What is this?" I would've probably said, "I don't know, some naked pictures of your old lady," to try to buy myself some time, maybe make him quit searching. The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember it like it was yesterday, I would have said, "The gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here, and we can see each other in court, or all hell's gonna break loose." Here's the issue, as I get a swig. (drinks) That would've been a bluff on my part because as far as I knew, every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me, for whatever reasons, because somebody's going to say it's tradecraft. But again, this is 2005 to 2008, but they could never really hear me in that clubhouse. And I make it out. Uh, I end up going out with Scott Town and Joe Dogs that night. But what happens is I am legitimately pissed off because now my adrenaline's coming back down, and I'm, I'm taking it personal. I shouldn't. I'm undercover as an FBI agent. I'm not really Scott Callaway. I mean, I'm kind of Scott Callaway.

   12. JRJoe Rogan1:06:28

       But you're so deep in the role.

   13. SPScott Payne1:06:30

       Well, and it's really me, kind of. I mean, that's the whole thing. I never was far off of who I really am in life.

   14. JRJoe Rogan1:06:35

       Right.

   15. SPScott Payne1:06:35

       A pedophile? Yeah. I'm, I'm... You hire me to kill somebody? No, I'm not going to ingratiate with you. I'm a stone-cold killer. But I'm hanging with you for two years or a year and a half or whatever? Yeah, the, I'm s- the jokes are kind of the same.

   16. JRJoe Rogan1:06:47

       Right.

   17. SPScott Payne1:06:47

       So, so I'm pissed, and I'm, at- to... at one point, I'm telling Joe Dogs, I'm like, "You know what, man?F all you sons of b..." I said, "Y'all show up tomorrow," I said, "I'm stripping all y'all in the damn parking lot." You know, I was just blow... uh, and they were nice. They let me vent my stuff. Well, that night, when I went to turn in my equipment, uh, at an undisclosed location, probably 3:00, 4:00, or 5:00 in the morning, to the case team, um, what I found out was this.... uh, the shift started with Sergeant Higginbottom, everybody called him Higgy, uh, and Joe, the detectives, uh, the detective. Uh, these guys are awesome, phenomenal law enforcement officers. Uh, although I think their love language is yelling. (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan1:07:30

       (laughs)

   19. SPScott Payne1:07:30

       Maybe that's my Southern thing mixing with the Northeast thing. But, uh, uh, they told me, they said, "Scott, we heard you in there." And I'm like, "What?" When I had that first interaction with Joe Dogs, they are very street smart, they're very good investigators, and they have been working this group forever. Something that happened in that first interaction made their Spidey senses, or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer, uh, say, "Something's not right." They had pulled close enough, they heard everything. They put on their vests, they suited up and because they'd been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door.

   20. JRJoe Rogan1:08:10

       Oh my God.

   21. SPScott Payne1:08:10

       Just to smash that, you know. Uh, sometimes I'm teaching this, I'll joke about it and say, "It probably would've killed me because I was in the basement, you know."

   22. JRJoe Rogan1:08:16

       (laughs)

   23. SPScott Payne1:08:18

       (laughs) Reverse, back up.

   24. JRJoe Rogan1:08:21

       (laughs)

   25. SPScott Payne1:08:21

       (laughs) You're so damn heavy. But, um, at that moment, I was scared to death, right? So they tell me what happened was, they pulled close enough, they heard everything. They're suiting up. They have radioed now, because it's kind of the beginning of the shift, they've radioed now back to Boston. Everybody that's working that night is now blue lights and siren all the way down to, uh, hauling ass to Taunton, Massachusetts. So, uh, I say this in a jovial way, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine. We went through the FBI academy together. And, uh, that night, um, again, I'm still shell-shocked. He says, "Man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on, I felt like I was in there with you." And I looked at him and I said, "You weren't." (laughs)

   26. JRJoe Rogan1:09:04

       (laughs)

   27. SPScott Payne1:09:05

       I was like... I was like, because I was looking for any friendly face I could find in that damn hole. But, uh, so, uh, that night, um, we haven't talked about my family. I, I try not... well, I tell you about it. In my, in the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended, you know, 911 hangups, stuff like that. But at that point in time, uh, I'd bought my wife... everybody's pretty familiar now with a burner phone, but I'd bought my wife a, a phone that came back to nothing so my undercover phone could call that phone, not-

   28. JRJoe Rogan1:09:38

       Right.

   29. SPScott Payne1:09:38

       ... violating the operational security. That night, Joe, when I called her, I'd always call her every night, and again, 5:00, 7:00 in the morning, it didn't matter, and it might just be she wakes up and says, "Hello?" And I go, "Hey, I just wanted you to know I'm done, heading back to the hotel room. Whenever I wake up this afternoon, I'll call you." It might be that quick. That night when I called her, um, the first thing she said to me was, "Are you okay?" And I said-

   30. JRJoe Rogan1:10:01

       She felt it.

Episode duration: 2:46:50