Joe Rogan Experience #2295 - Scott Payne

Narrator 0:00 (drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays)

Joe Rogan 0:12 Um, you've had a crazy fucking life, man.

Scott Payne 0:14 Tss.

Joe Rogan 0:14 Like a really crazy life.

Scott Payne 0:15 That's what I'm saying.

Joe Rogan 0:16 You spent... So to get everybody up to speed right from the beginning, you spent 25 years undercover, working for the FBI in the Klan, Nazi organizations, and biker gangs.

Scott Payne 0:29 And then some, yes, sir.

Joe Rogan 0:31 What a crazy, crazy life that is.

Scott Payne 0:34 (laughs) Yeah.

Joe Rogan 0:35 What... First of all, how did you get... How did you first get started doing that?

Scott Payne 0:40 Uh, good question. I grew up in South Carolina. Um, played ball, all that stuff. I- I- I was always kind of a... I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, 'cause that's not it. You've had plenty of people on this show that are complete badasses. Um, but I was kind of a bully of bullies. I didn't... I always looked out for... I liked the underdog. Um, I bounced in college, uh, so I was already learning that gift of gab, um, and fight techniques, and stuff like that. And then I got... I became a cop because I- I... When I was in college, I took a course. You know, I'm tak- I'm taking electives. I went to college so I'd have four more years to figure out what I was gonna do.

Joe Rogan 1:17 Yeah.

Scott Payne 1:17 'Cause I didn't know what I was doing.

Joe Rogan 1:19 Me too.

Scott Payne 1:20 Except partying. Except, you know... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:21 I did three years. (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:24 (laughs) I- I was good at partying. Um, but, uh, I had an elective that was criminal justice, and, man, I really liked it. Um, psychology was always a strong thing for me, but it took a back seat, and I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology. But during those criminal justice courses, I was like... At first, for a fleeting moment, I said, "I'm gonna be an attorney. Yeah, I'll be an attorney." And then I realized, I'd be a terrible attorney.

Joe Rogan 1:51 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:51 I said, because if I was the defense attorney and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, "They did it." Right? That's not gonna get me any clients. And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kinison, grabbing them and going, "Say it."

Joe Rogan 2:03 (laughs)

Scott Payne 2:03 "Say it." You know? "You did it." So I'm like, yeah, that's probably not the best role for me. And, uh, I did a ride along with cops in the, uh, in the department, and that was it. But once I got into law enforcement, I was uniform patrol for three years, uh, I was just so fascinated with undercover. I don't know what it was. I can't really remember. Doing the book, I've tried to dive back in. People ask. I don't really remember. I just know that I loved undercover movies, period. If it was a biker undercover, I don't care how cheesy it was, I love them all.

Joe Rogan 2:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 2:36 And then one of my mentors at the sheriff's office, uh, he was actually the World's Strongest Man in the late '80s, after Kazmaier.

Joe Rogan 2:43 Oh, wow.

Scott Payne 2:43 He was a, he was a former Marine, um, and big dude. And he, as a- as a task force, had gone... On a task force, had gone undercover in some biker gangs. And man, I just... I- I was... I wanted to be a biker. I grew up on motorcycles, and then it just started taking off from there.

Joe Rogan 3:00 You got to think that biker gangs are probably super suspicious of people being undercover 'cause it's such a theme.

Scott Payne 3:07 (laughs) You think?

Joe Rogan 3:07 It's been around... (laughs) Right? It's been around forever, the stories of guys infiltrating biker gangs.

Scott Payne 3:12 Right.

Joe Rogan 3:12 It's been around forever.

Scott Payne 3:13 40 plus years right now. Easy.

Joe Rogan 3:15 Wow.

Scott Payne 3:16 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 3:16 When did they first start doing it?

Scott Payne 3:16 And then, and then there's books made. There's books made. They go to court.

Joe Rogan 3:20 Right.

Scott Payne 3:20 They learn.

Joe Rogan 3:21 Yeah. So it was right after the Vietnam War, right? That's when all the biker gangs really started getting off.

Scott Payne 3:25 Believe so. No, I think it goes back to World... I mean, my... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 3:28 Was it?

Scott Payne 3:28 My history is bad, but I think it goes back to, uh, to World War, at least two. Right?

Joe Rogan 3:33 Really?

Scott Payne 3:34 Because all those... The way it goes, everybody always asks what a one percenter is. And it goes back, I think it's 1947, but it goes back to when, uh, your veterans are getting out. They have nothing. They're not... They had no decompression back then.

Joe Rogan 3:48 Right.

Scott Payne 3:48 They had no plans or programs for them. And they've been out here living this raucous, rowdy life, and now they're back in the States. And now they're supposed to just flip and be like... (snaps fingers)

Joe Rogan 3:58 Right.

Scott Payne 3:58 So they started creating these clubs, and they were doing some raucous and rowdy stuff. And then it was the president of the American Motorcycle Association that came out and made this statement that said something to the effect of, "Listen, 99% of all motorcycle riders are good, law-abiding citizens. There's only 1% that's bad." And they took that as a badge of honor and said, "We're one percenters."

Joe Rogan 4:20 Wow.

Scott Payne 4:21 Yeah. Cool stuff.

Joe Rogan 4:22 Cool stuff. So who was the first person to infiltrate them? Do you know the history of that?

Scott Payne 4:26 Oh, boy. I have no... No, I don't.

Joe Rogan 4:27 But it... So it's been going on forever.

Scott Payne 4:29 Hun-

Joe Rogan 4:29 As soon as they found out...

Scott Payne 4:30 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 4:30 It's like it's been the case with the mob. It's been the case with everything.

Scott Payne 4:33 Sure.

Joe Rogan 4:34 Johnny Brasco. You know?

Scott Payne 4:35 Yep. My mentor. One of my... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:37 Really?

Scott Payne 4:37 Yeah. Joe Pistone? Absolutely.

Joe Rogan 4:39 Oh, wow.

Scott Payne 4:39 He helped certify me. I saw him probably within the last six months or so.

Joe Rogan 4:44 Pff.

Scott Payne 4:45 He graciously... He did a blurb on the book too.

Joe Rogan 4:47 Oh, wow.

Scott Payne 4:47 I call him Boss Man, you know. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 4:49 So do you remember your first undercover assignment?

Scott Payne 4:52 Uh, yes. Yeah. Uh...

Joe Rogan 4:53 What'd you have to do?

Scott Payne 4:54 Uh... (laughs) It was at the sheriff's office. So I... After three years in uniform, I make it, uh, to narcotics investigator. Well, you got... It's, it's a tough crowd. But we're funny, you know. But it's, it's just like a good military group or anything else. There's gonna be a lot of ribbing and stuff like that. So they, they said, "Hey, you're gonna go buy some dope tonight." It was my first time. Now, granted, I bought weed and stuff in high school when I was around these groups, but I never bought crack cocaine. I was already probably 6'4", and I probably was like 270 pounds. I did not look like I had smoked crack.

Joe Rogan 5:27 (laughs)

Scott Payne 5:28 Unless I just fell off the wagon.

Joe Rogan 5:30 Just feel

Narrator 5:31 ... recently.

Scott Payne 5:31 Or I just started. Yeah.

Joe Rogan 5:32 Right, right. (laughs)

Scott Payne 5:34 I'm, I'm the vegan that shows up still smelling like beef, you know.

Joe Rogan 5:37 Right, right, right.

Scott Payne 5:37 I just stopped. Uh, but they told me. They're like, "Hey, it's real easy. You're just gonna roll down to this corner as a non-drug, drug, drug trafficking area. You're gonna roll down there. White boy, you're gonna roll down the window. They're gonna come up to you and say, 'What do you want?'" And back then, it was a 20. You just get a rock. 20 bucks for a rock and so... All you got to do is hold that 20 and say, "Just want a 20." So I drive down there. (laughs) I know I w- I was... I know I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone, but I was also scared to make a fool of myself...... in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me. And I roll down the street, and I pull up, and they come running up to the window, "What you want? What you want?" I crack the window. (laughs) I crack it about this far, and I stick a 20 like I'm trying to go to a vending machine.

Joe Rogan 6:20 Right.

Scott Payne 6:20 I'm like, "I want a 20." You know? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 6:23 (laughs)

Scott Payne 6:23 And the dude's like, he takes the 20, but he can't hand me the crack rock back through the cracked window. He's like, "Roll the damn window down." And I'm like, "Uh, my bad." Uh, it was probably like a sliver of soap. Who knows? But that was my first drug buy, first undercover, like legit.

Joe Rogan 6:38 And so what was the protocol? Like, you had to buy the drug, and then what do you do?

Scott Payne 6:43 It depends, uh, case-by-case basis. We may wanna make numerous buys on that corner, try to come in with the jump out boys, they used to call them, and shut that corner down for a while. We may be trying to, to make buys on the low-level people on the corner selling who are probably most likely users, at least it was my experience. So maybe like every five crack rocks they sold, they can peel one for themselves. Um, and maybe we wanna get them, build a case on them, kind of try to climb it up.

Joe Rogan 7:10 Mm. And then find out who's the distributor?

Scott Payne 7:12 Yeah.

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Scott Payne 8:16 And that's, th- that was like the state and local, um, we, you know, hit it, uh... Everybody's a little different, but three buys, hit them with a search warrant kind of thing, something like that.

Joe Rogan 8:26 And, uh, ultimately, so when you're doing this, um, you're, you're, you're buying. You're trying to get a, d- develop some sort of a relationship or an understanding of how this thing goes down. How do you get to who's selling it to them? Do you have to arrest them first?

Scott Payne 8:40 You can. You can, or you can do, uh... There's all kinds of ways, but you could do like a wall off. In other words, not let everybody see us pick you off, you know, so you don't get burned.

Joe Rogan 8:50 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 8:50 Bring you in, talk to you. "And this is what we got on you. We're trying to figure out who it is." And it's just traditional law enforcement. You're trying to find more intel and work your way up.

Joe Rogan 8:58 And do you offer them like immunity or something like that?

Scott Payne 9:00 Depends. Some people are, some people do it out of the goodness of their heart.

Joe Rogan 9:03 Really?

Scott Payne 9:03 Yeah. It's ra- I mean, it's rare, uh, but I mean, you can do it. "Hey, I'm patriotic. I want to help clean this up. These people are trying to sell me dope. I don't like them. I can go buy it for you." Uh, a lot of times, we're paying a source, um, or they could be working off a charge. It could be part of their plea agreement.

Joe Rogan 9:21 So this is your first one. You get comfortable doing that, and then how often are you doing this?

Scott Payne 9:26 Oh, I don't know. I mean, it, you... We could come in. Let's just say there's six investigators on northern or southern command narcotics in Greenville County. You m- you might be one of my partners, and we come in, and you go, "Hey, I got a source. He's gonna go make a buy tonight." You might hop in the car with him. It just happens. It gives, I mean, it's almost a daily thing.

Joe Rogan 9:45 And so you develop your skills doing this. You get real good at being undercover, and then how do you move on to the big boys? How do you move on to biker gangs, Nazis, K-

Scott Payne 9:55 I got hired by the FBI.

Joe Rogan 9:56 Wow.

Scott Payne 9:57 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 9:58 And-

Scott Payne 9:58 Uh-

Joe Rogan 9:58 ... was it specifically because you were good at undercover shit?

Scott Payne 10:01 No.

Joe Rogan 10:01 Or no?

Scott Payne 10:01 I mean, if you see a picture of me, I had the... Uh, this is me, but for the academy, I mean, it's a cheesy, thin, fuzzy mustache.

Joe Rogan 10:11 (laughs)

Scott Payne 10:11 Can't go past the crease of your lip high and tight. You go get your hair cut at the PX in Quantico, it was usually foreign ladies, uh, that, that were cutting your hair. It... No matter how I'd explained what I wanted, I got the same haircut every time.

Joe Rogan 10:22 (laughs)

Scott Payne 10:24 (laughs) "Can you take it up a little bit here and not so much here?" They're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah." Frunk. You're like-

Joe Rogan 10:27 (laughs)

Scott Payne 10:27 ... "All right, there you go. Thank you."

Joe Rogan 10:29 "I guess this is what we're doing."

Scott Payne 10:30 But one thing I noticed in the, uh, at the state level was, we would all go, back then, the South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy is in Columbia, South Carolina. So we would go there, um, and get certified. But in your county, I mean, how many ways can I shave... I'm, I'm in the same county, and you're going out here making buys. How many times can I change my car, change my outfit, change my facial hair, the hair on my head until everybody starts knowing I'm a narc, you know?

Joe Rogan 10:58 Right.

Scott Payne 10:58 Um, 'cause when you're in that local environment, and I mean, I'm talking Greenville, South Carolina. Miami might be a little bit different or New York City, but you're going to court a lot, and people are seeing you in court.

Joe Rogan 11:09 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 11:09 And then, so how do you roll out there? So a lot of it turns into just running sources. Um, to me, uh, I believe developing and running sources is hand-in-hand with undercover because other than them not being a bonded law enforcement officer, um, and, and I don't have a felon on my record, but they do, they're still the ones we're wiring up and going in to get the evidence.

Joe Rogan 11:31 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 11:32 So a lot of it, uh, over the last many years with the, uh, defund the police and the, and the black eye, it's hard to recruit. It's hard enough to get people to fill the uniform slots, uh, so you really don't have anybody doing undercover, um, most of, most of your smaller departments that I've taught or talked to or learned from is, uh, they're just running sources.

Joe Rogan 11:55 Really? So this all stopped during defund the police?

Scott Payne 11:58 Oh, a lot.

Joe Rogan 11:58 So like the George Floyd times?

Scott Payne 11:59 Yeah, a lot of it. Yeah, it's a, the pendulum swings, right?

Joe Rogan 12:02 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 12:02 Um, or it could be that because generations are different these days, people come to apply, and they've got felons on their record. And we're like, "Bro, you can't...You can't be a cop. You got a felon on your record, you know? But I remember thinking, "Wouldn't it be kind of cool if South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy had all of the certified undercovers in some type of database where it says, 'Hey, Scott's skillset is biker, you know, riding motorcycles, can go in a biker bar or whatever, strip clubs, this, that, and the other.' Maybe Charleston County needs somebody. Wouldn't that be cool if I could just shoot down there and, and make buys for Charleston County, but go back, and that way nobody knows me in Charleston County?"

Joe Rogan 12:41 Right.

Scott Payne 12:42 And when I got in the FBI, that's kind of what they do. You get certified in the FBI and you, I mean, you can go around the world.

Joe Rogan 12:48 So what was your initial job in the FBI?

Scott Payne 12:50 The f- You are a case agent. When you get hired, you're sup- the, uh, only responsibility you have, uh, really, is you are a case agent. And that means you investigate, you do your own cases. Uh, I did that the entire career. Even when I was doing undercover, I was still a case agent. But I, uh, I went through the academy. I got New York City as my first office, and New York is the largest office, so they put you kind of, like, on a rotation. You don't just go straight to a squad. You're gonna be like... They want you to learn the city. They want you to learn the ins and outs of having a placard and the bus lane and all that stuff. Or just how to figure out how to get into the damn Lincoln Tunnel when (laughs) six lanes go like that, you know? Um, but eventually, I went through the rotation and I got placed on the Colombian drug squad. So there, then people start learning you were a certified undercover at a state level and this, that, and the other. So then there'd about be something like, say, LA takes off a 3,000... And we're talking like 2001 ish, 2000, somewhere in there. So they take off, say, 3,000 pounds of weed in LA, and it was supposed to come to New York. Well, we go with them and say, "Man, can you send us all the stuff..." They're, they're cutting leads to us saying, "Hey, it was supposed to go to this address." But we gotta build the exact replica box, and it depends on the US attorney working the case. They may want... Assistant United States attorney. They may want to just us deliver it, and that's good enough. Some may want us to deliver it, pull away, and then they've got a hidden switch or something that, uh, notifies us when they open it, just to make that case tighter.

Joe Rogan 14:23 Mm.

Scott Payne 14:24 So I started doing cameos on stuff like that, and then, uh, and then I landed an undercover, which I don't really talk about in the book because it's classified. And we are coming up on 25 years, which is usually when they declassify them. It's kind of been outed, but I just don't talk about it because I don't want to end up in the box, the, the lie detector and have somebody beating me down. But I landed that undercover, and after about 30 days in San Antonio, I became... They gave me another 60-day extension and I became the primary. And because I was there full-time working undercover, they transferred me to the San Antonio division.

Joe Rogan 15:00 So the first undercover gig, what was your, like, what was your job? Like, what were you, what were you pretending to do?

Scott Payne 15:08 The classified one? Again, it's classified.

Joe Rogan 15:10 Okay.

Scott Payne 15:10 But I will say this. I was a security guard. Can you imagine being a cop with a cool uniform, with a real gun on your hip? And now I'm making it to the FBI and I'm working third shift as, uh, Night at the Museum, you know, with a flashlight.

Joe Rogan 15:24 Oh, wow.

Scott Payne 15:25 But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover program, and sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already s- in or slated for an undercover.

Joe Rogan 15:36 Mm. And so how... So you eventually work your way up to probably more and more dangerous and complicated assignments?

Scott Payne 15:45 W- what happens, at least in my, my experience, what happened with me is I get certified. Our certification school is very, very intense. Uh, I mean, I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm 99.9% sure it's still very intense. It's two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation. Not gonna give away all the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft reasons, but let's just say that, uh, I got certified in 2002. In 2003, I started role playing an assistant at the school. I probably missed a handful of schools up until the day I retired. Um, never 100% graduation rate.

Joe Rogan 16:23 How do-

Scott Payne 16:23 I don't, I don't know of any 100% graduation, graduation rate before I got into the program. Um, and it's not hazing. You get 20 slots. Uh, so it's four groups of five. And generally, it goes like, you get some trainings during the day, and then we're running scenarios, and we're putting you into live stuff. But at day three and four, when you're really hurting for sleep, I've seen people nut out. And I... And mine are in psych. I, I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know. Maybe we were on the SWAT team together. Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away. But you go to the UC school, and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in... Uh, one of my buddies walked in, he looked like he'd been raped by a tribe.

Joe Rogan 17:10 Wow.

Scott Payne 17:10 I, I wa- He come walking in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail- I'm like, "Are you okay?" And, uh, some people, it's just... I would say that the reason the training is like that, it's not hazing, it's just so we don't lose anybody. We try to make it as real as you can.

Joe Rogan 17:29 Well, you got to find out who's gonna crack.

Scott Payne 17:31 Yeah. And think of this. In a real scenario, not all undercovers are like this, but in the ones I would usually do, there's gonna be a lot of times with no sleep. My skill set led me not to Wall Street. It didn't lead me to the yacht. It didn't lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscle for the mafia guy. Un- led me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy, crazy ass meth heads or just ideologies. So I get certified and then I go back and role play, and that's when people start kind of seeing, and you're try- I mean, you're trying to make a name for yourself. Um, I wasn't getting calls because on paper I'm a white guy with no foreign language. But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, "Hey, you got anything?" It's a big country.You got anything- more medium now, but I mean- (laughs)

Joe Rogan 18:21 (laughs)

Scott Payne 18:21 ... I could even be a little country at this point, you know? But I'd be like, "Hey, you got anything for any rednecks who know foreign language?" And I'd just wear them down until they'd laugh, and then they'd finally ask me to come to the school. And once you do the school, now there's seasoned undercovers coming back, um, and they're not only there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions. And that's where I kind of started getting, getting into some things.

Joe Rogan 18:45 It has to be one of the most exciting kinds of law enforcement.

Scott Payne 18:49 I- For me, absolutely.

Joe Rogan 18:51 It has to be so crazy. Like-

Scott Payne 18:52 It's- We're gen- I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies.

Joe Rogan 18:59 Yeah.

Scott Payne 19:00 I mean-

Joe Rogan 19:00 That's got to be a gigantic rush.

Scott Payne 19:03 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:06 (laughs)

Scott Payne 19:06 They're onto us. Shh. Don't-

Joe Rogan 19:07 I've talked to a few guys that have done that kind of work.

Scott Payne 19:09 Don't tell.

Joe Rogan 19:09 And they always speak of it with sort of fond memories, about crazy it is.

Scott Payne 19:14 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:14 It's weird. It's like, it's a very particular type of person that would want to put themselves in that highly stressful, adrenaline charged situation where, you know, any mistake and they find out who you really are, you're dead.

Scott Payne 19:25 Could be.

Joe Rogan 19:26 Yeah.

Scott Payne 19:27 Yeah. Now you made me second guess my career.

Joe Rogan 19:30 (laughs)

Scott Payne 19:31 (laughs)

Joe Rogan 19:31 It seems like it worked out.

Scott Payne 19:32 I'm gonna (laughs) ... I'm gonna call, I'm gonna, it's Kash now, right? I'll call Kash. "Hey," you know, "You think I could come back in?"

Joe Rogan 19:38 What was the first one that you got, the first assignment that you got where you were like, "Oh boy, this is big leagues"?

Scott Payne 19:44 That was the Outlaws case. I'd already done some undercovers, uh, again, in the FBI. I'd done several street level things, or numerous, whatever, uh, at the state level. Um, but I'd- I was doing a couple of cases in the FBI, and they were smaller. You know, maybe it was supposed to be interstate transportation of stolen goods, and it turned into a public corruption case. But when I landed the Outlaws case, that was, that was my bi- first big and probably one of the biggest I did.

Joe Rogan 20:11 So how does that go? How did, how did that start?

Scott Payne 20:13 Um, I'm not a smart man, so that's how it started. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 20:19 (laughs)

Scott Payne 20:19 They're like, "Why do you do this, Scott?" I go, "I'm not smart."

Joe Rogan 20:21 (laughs)

Scott Payne 20:22 "I am stupid. I'm a glutton for punishment. And my last name is Payne," you know? Uh, in that case they did- They'll do canvases. Um, a lot of times, so I was an undercover coordinator. Every division has an undercover coordinator, so you are the front line on all things covert, and you're the liaison between headquarters and that field office. Um, so if I had a case come up, I may already know you or whoever and be like, "Hey, I'll just put a text out to you, you interested?" Or we may just send out a canvas, and then a canvas comes from headquarters and goes to every undercover coordinator. And if it gets to the point to where no certified undercovers have responded, then they'll do like a bureau wide canvas and see what we can get. I can't remember exactly if somebody called me on that one. I'm pretty sure. I don't remember that outlaw as being a canvas, but it possibly could have been.

Joe Rogan 21:10 Well, you fit the bill.

Scott Payne 21:11 W- Yeah, I'm, yeah.

Joe Rogan 21:13 You look like a outlaw biker.

Scott Payne 21:14 It depends on the slash Viking, whatever.

Joe Rogan 21:17 Yeah. (laughs)

Scott Payne 21:17 Yeah, yeah. It depends. See, that's what a lot of people... I'll get off on a tangent, but so- throughout my career, my, my mentors, my peers, people I've been blessed to mentor, some people come up in the office, very good friends, unbelievable agents. I mean, brainiacs, awesome. They'll be like, "Man, I can never do what you do." My beard would be down to here, whatever, tatted up. Um, and I'm like, "Well, don't do me. What do you... What's your background?" And they're like, "Well, I was an accountant." And I'm like, "With who? Before, before that job." "Oh, I was an accountant with Disney," or whatever. "I was this, I was a lawyer." Well, you be you. I can... I'm not... Somebody is probably going to be pissed because they're gonna say it's trade craft. But listen, I could bring you in, um, and you just walk into the group. I'm the primary. I've already laid all this stuff out. It's a chess game. We're always trying to stay four or five moves ahead, or master of puppets. I'm just trying to connect with people and work, work the scene. But you come in and you dress as an accountant and you talk like an accountant and then you walk out, you're you. It's real.

Joe Rogan 22:21 Right.

Scott Payne 22:22 So-

Joe Rogan 22:22 So there's roles for all sorts of different types of personalities-

Scott Payne 22:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 22:25 ... and life skills?

Scott Payne 22:26 Yeah. And I'm like, "You might see something where they say, 'I need a person this tall, that speaks this language, that does this and knows this,'" but what are you trying to do? Essentially, the FBI works everything. Um, and if, if a target... If we have predication or predicated target or there's information coming in about somebody doing something nefarious, if we want to do an undercover, how do, how do I get close to you? I mean, what do you find attractive? Usually it's money, in the criminal world. It's green, right?

Joe Rogan 22:57 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 22:57 You can see the Mexican mafia working with the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. They hate each other, but they love green.

Joe Rogan 23:04 Hmm.

Scott Payne 23:04 And one needs guns and one needs dope, and you know, it all... In the criminal world. But for that case, uh, I went up, I got interviewed, um, by, of course, the FBI. Um, there were task forces there, DEA was there, ATF was there, and they had been working this case for a while. And generally, this is the way it would work for me on these long term type undercovers. The case team's been working this for a long time. They... A year plus. They've been building intelligence. Now, they've got some evidence already, maybe a seizure of dope here, report of a carjacking here. But to get that airtight case and to find out what's really going on, now they're at the point to where they can use the investigative technique, which is undercover. And, uh, we came up with a plan, um, and I, and, and I went, I went in cold. I tried to bump them, as we say, a cold bump. But, uh, I went into a bar that they frequented. I went there when they weren't there. It was a strip club. I used to bounce at strip clubs. In the book, I make a, a joke, uh, because I call them a gentleman's club, but then I say that's an oxymoron, because... (laughs)

Joe Rogan 24:15 (laughs) Right.

Scott Payne 24:16 I'm like, everyone I've been in, there's not a lot of gentlemen in there, and that includes me back in the whatever days they were.But I knew how they work. So I went in there and I just started hanging out, and I, of course, this accent in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm getting noticed as soon as I start talking.

Joe Rogan 24:32 Right.

Scott Payne 24:32 "Where the hell are you from?" And I kind of worked that, and started working the bar, doing what I do. Uh, not ev- everybody has their own way, um, and let me say this since it's at the beginning. Listen, there, uh, for me, I want people to know it comes from a humble spot. There are men and women out there that have done way more undercovers than me. They have been through more harrowing things than me. I already said, I've got mentors, I've got peers, I've got people I've been blessed to mentor. Um, some of them don't want to talk, uh, some of them haven't had the opportunity. So just know it's coming from a, a love kind of place.

Joe Rogan 25:06 Got it. So when you say you work in the bar, what do you mean, you just like making friends with people there?

Scott Payne 25:11 What I did last night here in Austin. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 25:15 (laughs)

Scott Payne 25:15 Same thing. All I got-

Joe Rogan 25:16 Is it like old habits die hard?

Scott Payne 25:17 Yeah, I just walk up like, "Hey man, how's it going?"

Joe Rogan 25:20 Do you like practice?

Scott Payne 25:20 Yeah, you know.

Joe Rogan 25:20 It's like catch and release, you're like pretending?

Scott Payne 25:22 (laughs) Yeah, it's still, you're working your, yeah, working your gab, yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:25 That's interesting.

Scott Payne 25:25 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:25 So you're always working your skill set.

Scott Payne 25:27 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 25:27 Even though you're not on the job anymore.

Scott Payne 25:28 Yeah, I know, right? Uh, I love connecting with people. I don't care whether you're smart, stupid, big, you know, skinny, fat, any ethnicity, it doesn't matter. Uh, and that's one thing I do miss about the job. I miss getting called out at 2:00 in the morning for the craziest of the crazies.

Joe Rogan 25:43 Really?

Scott Payne 25:44 And you show up to do an interview, and I'm, and essentially I befriend you, and you either confess or we find out you really weren't doing anything. I do remember one night, this wasn't undercover, but they call me because towards the end of my career I was doing nothing but mainly domestic terrorism. And they called me, they go, "We got one down here. He's a white supremacist. He's assaulted a cop," this, that, and the other. Well, I get down there, it's like 3:00, 4:00 in the morning now. I do my spiel. I'm not screaming at the guy, "Man, you need something to drink? Here, man, you look cold, here's a coat. So tell me about what happened. I'm not here for this other stuff, I'm just..." And I start talking. Well, somewhere in there, I'm like, "Okay, this guy is not a white supremacist, he's a sovereign citizen. Um, and he's just anti-government. Pro-sheriff, elected, but anti-government." Sovereign citizens, I really can't stand to deal with them, it's, it's just, it's like absurdity to the max.

Joe Rogan 26:33 Can you explain sovereign citizen to people?

Scott Payne 26:35 They (sighs) you see it all over YouTube, they, they don't (laughs) , like, they get pulled over and they go, "I don't need a driver's license, I'm in commerce, I'm in transit." If they touch you, "Well, that's rape." They think they've got 100 and, I don't, I'm going to forget it, but it's like 175, $250,000 being held by the government for each person. It's crazy. They'll start putting liens on people. People put on training, so when it first started happening, a cop pulls you over and they see like this thing signed in blood and the paperwork looks legit, they're going, "I never got that training. Is this legit? You know, I guess I can't pull this guy over." Then it, then you start diving in, you start getting the training, they go, "These people are full of crap." And then you see the cops popping the window and dragging them out of the car. You're still going. But this guy was a sovereign citizen. He had a brother. And we're (laughs) , we're talking and, and he's telling me this stuff and the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, and I'm like, "Yeah, yeah." And I said, "Well, but how do you know that's what the forefathers meant when they signed that?" And he said, "Because I was there, son."

Joe Rogan 27:37 Oh, boy.

Scott Payne 27:38 And that's when I went...

Joe Rogan 27:39 (laughs)

Scott Payne 27:41 Oh, he's not just a sovereign citizen.

Joe Rogan 27:43 (laughs) He's a kook.

Scott Payne 27:44 He's crazy.

Joe Rogan 27:46 (laughs)

Scott Payne 27:46 Why did it take me this long to find out?

Joe Rogan 27:47 He said, "I was there"?

Scott Payne 27:48 Yeah, "I was," and, and like this, he goes, "Because I..." Didn't even miss a beat. I go, "How do you know?" "Because I was there, son." And I went, "There. Oh, you've been reincarnated about four or five times."

Joe Rogan 27:59 Oh, boy.

Scott Payne 27:59 And I'm like, "And, and, and you got this life this time?"

Joe Rogan 28:03 (laughs)

Scott Payne 28:03 "You got the one you're living right now this time?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:05 What are you talking to me at 4:00 in the morning? (laughs)

Scott Payne 28:08 Yeah. (laughs) You look like you've had a rough life. I mean, I-

Joe Rogan 28:10 Oh.

Scott Payne 28:11 I would, you know, if I was going to buy into, you know, uh, reincarnation, I'd want to come back as maybe like my mom's dog or something like that, you know?

Joe Rogan 28:18 Right. (laughs) Something cool.

Scott Payne 28:18 Eat, stay, yeah, something, get this, a great life, sleep, eat and play. But, um, so back to the, uh, the Outlaws thing. I go in and I'm just shooting the shit. I'm just working the bar, I'm telling jokes. Uh, you get a crowd of people around you, and that's no, that's not trade crowd, I mean, I, that's just me, right? And, uh, by the way, uh, for the listeners who may not know, a little intervention. If you buy all your friends all their drinks and their food all the time, they're probably not your friends.

Joe Rogan 28:48 (laughs)

Scott Payne 28:49 You know what I mean? (laughs)

Joe Rogan 28:55 Yeah.

Scott Payne 29:24 They tell me they're coming. Now, the intelligence that they had provided me when we started getting this case together, I was like, "Hey, man, can they wear their colors, their cuts, their leathers in the bar?" And they said, "No, they don't allow that." And I'm thinking in my mind, "Well, that makes my approach easier," because I'm now a tattooed guy watching naked women, listening to heavy metal and drinking next to a guy who's watching naked women and heavy metal drinking. They had that part wrong, because about 13, 15 outlaws come walking into the bar, take the whole back bar, they're all wearing their colors.

Joe Rogan 30:01 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 30:01 So that, uh, does, does that change my approach?

Joe Rogan 30:04 Yeah.

Scott Payne 30:05 I, I think it does.

Joe Rogan 30:06 Yeah.

Scott Payne 30:06 Unless you want me to go up, and as I say when I'm teaching this, I go up and I go, "What do you say?" I'm going to go, "Hey, uh, you, you boys ride?"

Joe Rogan 30:13 (laughs)

Scott Payne 30:13 "What do you... Nothing? No? All right, fine. I'll just, I'm going to go back on the other side of the bar. Please don't beat my ass." Um, so I just...... was being loud and boisterous. It's me, that's what I do. (laughs) Uh, it doesn't always work for undercovers. Some people don't like it, but it's my personality.

Joe Rogan 30:31 Are you allowed to get drunk?

Scott Payne 30:34 Uh, boy, that's a tricky question. Yes, I can drink. Um, but here's the thing. Uh, let's say that outlaws case, that was two years. So there's two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a Jack and Coke up, right? Um, I was, I'm an anal. Uh, even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I'm pretty tight, and I wanted to be good. I wanted to always get better and be more well-rounded. So I would watch, and even if I caught myself at 5:00 in the morning, 6:00 in the morning slurring, as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, "Dadgum it, man." And then I'd listen, and within five minutes I'd be back because you got to remember, all that could be played in front of a jury.

Joe Rogan 31:12 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 31:12 And if I'm on there slurring-

Joe Rogan 31:14 Right.

Scott Payne 31:14 ... and saying a bunch of stupid stuff-

Joe Rogan 31:15 Right.

Scott Payne 31:15 ... I mean, how does that affect my articulation-

Joe Rogan 31:18 Right.

Scott Payne 31:18 ... for what I was doing? Um, but was my alcohol tolerance very high?

Joe Rogan 31:23 (laughs) You know, you're a big dude.

Scott Payne 31:24 Yeah.

Joe Rogan 31:24 You probably put some away.

Scott Payne 31:25 I did.

Joe Rogan 31:26 (laughs)

Scott Payne 31:26 I kind of still do. I tell you, I, I tell you what, uh, what put me on a three-month timeout with CPI. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 31:33 Really?

Scott Payne 31:34 Yeah. 'Cause you go down there and you get the, uh, stem cells-

Joe Rogan 31:36 Well, let's explain it. We're talking about the Cellular Performance Institute that, uh, my friends, uh, run down in Tijuana.

Scott Payne 31:42 Absolutely. Great, great facility. Uh, I will tell you the... my previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, uh, I almost died. I had a hip replacement and it got sepsis... I got sepsis-

Joe Rogan 31:55 (laughs)

Scott Payne 31:55 ... and I almost died.

Joe Rogan 31:56 Oof.

Scott Payne 31:56 So 14 days after my total hip replacement, quickest surgery I've ever had, about 30 minutes, chopped the femur off, drill it, pop, they're walking you out, you're still very high on all your... (laughs) They're like, "If you can walk, you can go home." And I'm like, "I can't walk?" (laughs) But, uh, uh, apparently something happened and it got infected. So 14 days later I had sepsis, and they got it under control, and they went back in and cleaned me all out. I had two hip surgeries in 14 days. But-

Joe Rogan 32:20 Wow.

Scott Payne 32:20 ... fast. So now I'm going to Tijuana knowing what I know about working the border, knowing what... (laughs) Even though I'm friends with Ed and Scotty, the owners, a- and I'm like, uh, I'm like, "Man." Uh, now I'm going by myself. Um, best hospital stay I've ever had. Uh, phenomenal.

Joe Rogan 32:37 CPI is great.

Scott Payne 32:37 It's phenomenal.

Joe Rogan 32:38 It's an amazing place.

Scott Payne 32:39 Phenomenal. And when I-

Joe Rogan 32:40 (laughs)

Scott Payne 32:40 But what got me to stop, cut back on my drinking is, I got down there, you can't drink the week before, especially if you're getting the IV, uh, stem cells 'cause they travel through your body and they grab stuff. So if you drink and it sees your liver working harder, it's going to go to your liver. So you're kind of wasting the, the shots. I knew I couldn't drink the week before I got there, and they go, "Yes, you can't drink for three more months." And I went, "Three months?"

Joe Rogan 33:02 (laughs)

Scott Payne 33:02 And they're like... I said, "Ain't nobody told me that shit." And I was like... And I immediately went, "Ah, I need to cut back anyway. That's fine," you know. But, uh, yeah, tolerance was high for them.

Joe Rogan 33:13 But you, you have to be drinking with these folks when you're hanging out with them?

Scott Payne 33:16 You don't have to, but this will, this will go back to an explanation of the undercover school. If you're going to drink, we want you to drink in a controlled environment when you're tired 'cause we want you to see how you feel.

Joe Rogan 33:28 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 33:28 We also want to see how you behave when you're extremely tired and you're plastered, right? Um, so you have to know that. You don't... In other words, you don't want to find out in the middle of the clubhouse that you can't handle your shit.

Joe Rogan 33:43 Right.

Scott Payne 33:44 Um, so yeah, I, I, uh, you can drink, um, and... but you're being recorded. So be, be weary about... wary about it.

Joe Rogan 33:54 What about drug use?

Scott Payne 33:56 Uh... (laughs) This is where I'm getting at this. Is this trade craft or not? Maybe this is the easiest way to say it. If I believe my life is in danger and, like, literally I'm getting ready to die, I, I'll, I will snort the lacquer finish off of this damn table.

Joe Rogan 34:17 (laughs)

Scott Payne 34:17 (laughs) And then I'll be like, "Is that, is that all you got? You want me to do some more?"

Joe Rogan 34:20 Right.

Scott Payne 34:20 'Cause I really don't feel like dying right now.

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Scott Payne 35:44 And then I need to get to the team. I need to get out. I need to get to the case team, and I need to get to an emergency room to make sure I'm not ODing, especially today with fentanyl and stuff.

Joe Rogan 35:52 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 35:52 But that's, that's kind of the general rule. Um, I would say it's probably not a good idea for you to do drugs. Just without answering it completely-

Joe Rogan 36:04 Yeah.

Scott Payne 36:04 ... let me give you this. You're going to trial. We've got a two-year case against you, and I'm up here articulating what I did, it's in my documents, it's in the recordings, and we have built this case. Usually, with undercover cases, in my experience, the evidence is so overwhelming, the only thing the defense can, can claim is entrapment, which you should be able to shoot that down pretty quick if you've done your due diligence, or they try to make you look like a piece of trash on the stand.

Joe Rogan 36:35 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 36:35 So imagine if they're saying, "Well, he did dope with us."You need to be able to articulate did you, why did you. That's more movie stuff.

Joe Rogan 36:43 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 36:43 It does happen on, uh, on levels, and I wish it didn't.

Joe Rogan 36:47 (coughs)

Scott Payne 36:47 But it happens on levels where people don't have training. Um, and that's, that's sad, because there have been plenty of people, let's just use biker gangs, from law enforcement, from local small department all the way up to feds that have infiltrated biker gangs, that have patched and gotten their colors. But the cases went to crap. They lost themselves. They lost their marriage. They became addicted to drugs. So we shouldn't be d- There's no case worth that.

Joe Rogan 37:12 Mm-hmm.

Scott Payne 37:12 That's probably, that's, that's the best way to say it. There's no case worth you getting addicted to drugs or endangering yourself. Just walk.

Joe Rogan 37:19 So what is the dance of getting to the bar, becoming a regular, and then eventually getting to know these guys?

Scott Payne 37:27 Um, so that first night, uh, I'm being loud and boisterous, and they did say that there was one particular member who loved to be the center of attention, and he loved to be surrounded by big dudes. (clears throat) Take that for what you want. I don't know. I didn't dive too deep into that one, but, uh ...

Joe Rogan 37:44 (laughs)

Scott Payne 37:44 When you say hang out with big dudes, surrounded ...

Joe Rogan 37:47 Are we wearing clothes? (laughs)

Scott Payne 37:49 (laughs) Why is there a jar of Vaseline over there?

Joe Rogan 37:50 (laughs)

Scott Payne 37:51 What kind of party is this?

Joe Rogan 37:52 What's with the cameras? (laughs)

Scott Payne 37:53 Yeah. (laughs) Hey, Scott, have a drink of this before you come in here, and sign this NDA.

Joe Rogan 38:00 Yeah, what?

Scott Payne 38:00 What? (laughs) Uh, so I, I start befriending him, and I'm being lou- I s- let me take it back. I'm being loud. This guy did like attention. He sees it, and he's like, "Hey, hey, where the F are you from?" So I fire some stupid comedy thing back, and we start going back and forth, because he's already asked the bartenders, "Who the hell's that guy?" "Oh, that's Tex. He comes up here all the time from Texas." I don't come up here all the time. It's human nature. It's like, you know, you caught a fish this big, by the 10th person you're telling, "Man, there was, like, 10 of them."

Joe Rogan 38:34 Right.

Scott Payne 38:34 I had to fight them off with my pinkies. Um, but I get called over. Uh, I don't know who sent a drink to who first, but he calls me over and just starts shooting the shit with me. And from then, he pretty much invites me to one of their northeast regionals, uh, called Lobsterfest, held in Brockton at that clubhouse. Um, and we were kind of on the way. There was a guy who was not patched, and his name was Scott as well. Uh, I said the name of the book. It's all, it's all adjudicated. It's all in the court, uh, proceedings and stuff. But, um, Scott Town was his name, and he was a big dude. He was jacked, and he came in. I remember going to the bathroom, and, uh, again, I think I'm doing pretty good. Like, I'm, I'm, I'm in great shape, and I'm being me. I'm talking, shooting the shit, not hanging out too much. I walk back over, play a little, you know, you come chase me kind of thing. So I go to the bathroom and nobody's in there. And for the listeners that don't know men's bathrooms in bars, usually at the urinal, there's some kind of box, plexiglass with some kind of ads. Like, "Hey, this person's coming next week." That stuff. So as I'm peeing, I'm looking at the reflection, and I see the door swing open, and I see this jacked dude, Scott. Uh, it must have made an impression because in the report I even say he's wearing (laughs) like a gray shirt with black trim. He's completely sleeved out, and I'm getting all this from ... (laughs) you know, uh, sleeved out on the left arm, huge earrings. Um, and I watch him, and I see him kind of ducking and looking under stalls and hitting the doors to make sure nobody else is in the bathroom. I'm acting nonchalant, but then I see him walk up to me, and for that split second I thought, "I'm getting jacked. I'm gonna, I'm gonna get jumped right here." But he ends up just asking me, "What brings you to Massachusetts?" I think what happened is they sent him in there to press me. Um, and this is a good lesson. Don't bluff. If you bluff, uh, whatever you say today, you might be still in that case a year and a half, two years later. It needs to match what you said on day

Scott Payne 40:35 one, or you could be slipping up and getting found out. But I said where I'd been around, McAllen, grew up in South Carolina, all this stuff. He'd been to all those places 'cause he used to travel the country fighting dogs. So if I'd have been bluffing, I'd have been done right there. And then from there, we start building relationships. Now I'm trying to ingratiate, and I'm getting invited to parties. Uh, they, uh, my story was that I was a site survey specialist, and I traveled the country for investors out of Texas, and I would look at properties that they want to buy, whether res- whether it's residential or mercantile, and, you know, pull stuff from the clerk of court and all that kind of stuff. But, as it usually does in the criminal world, it came out that I also did some crimes myself. And that's when we started getting into, uh, they were doing insurance fraud first with me. Um, they would report vehicles stolen and then sell them to me for a stolen price. And the story was, since I was based out of McAllen, Texas, I'm just using the facts, uh, that we were moving vehicles to Mexico, uh, in trade for whatever. Guns, dope, most likely dope, but whatever. Um, and that's how we started. And then from there, now you start gaining more trust. You start hanging out more. You become tighter. You're building these relationships. Um, and then it's like, "Hey, we just carjacked somebody. We got this car. We took this dude at gunpoint. This thing's got LoJack or OnStar," or whatever was around then. "We know how to get rid of it. Don't worry about it. I got it." Have a truck driver show up. We load all the stolen equipment, vehicles, whatever, uh, on the truck, and they thought they were going to Mexico, but they were just going to a warehouse somewhere in Massachusetts.

Joe Rogan 42:16 So you never actually brought cars to Mexico?

Scott Payne 42:20 No.

Joe Rogan 42:20 So when you would do that, we'd just get cash from the FBI to, like, represent?

Scott Payne 42:25 Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, they would, I would pay them, yeah, uh, a stolen price. Usually, stolen is usually 20% to 25% of what it would normally cost, you know, 'cause it's hot. Um, and that just started gaining trust. I mean, there, we, like I said, there was other undercovers that would help. We'd call those cameos, um-If, if you're the primary undercover, that's you, that's your case. Uh, a secondary undercover might mean you come in to meet me, but you stay with me for a couple of days and we go out and meet bad guys together. That's going to be a secondary role. If you're coming in as a truck driver, you're just pulling in the parking lot and we're loading up stuff, that's a cameo. And I've done many cameos for other undercovers as well. You know, just roll into town, do a deal, whatever. And then they-

Narrator 43:07 So no one's ever tried to go with you to Mexico to make sure that all this is happening?

Scott Payne 43:10 Not on that case, but if they did want to, we would have to work that out. We would have to have that kind of... 'Cause, look, I coi- I, I, I took this from a, a buddy of mine who, who I helped certify as an undercover, and I just thought it was a great way to say it, is, look, at the end of the day, we want that target going to bed thinking, "That was a good day." You don't want them laying in bed going, "Man, there's something wasn't right about that guy."

Narrator 43:37 Right.

Scott Payne 43:37 "Something, something's not right." 'Cause you want it to be as real as possible.

Narrator 43:40 Right.

Scott Payne 43:41 So is it, was it a fact that the cartels, at that point in time, loved 4x4 V8s and Harley Davidsons? Absolutely. Did they get stolen all the time on the border? Absolutely. So that's, that's factual stuff that's real. So now I'm a guy they, they, they eventually learned and believed that I was a high-ranking, high-ranking member of an international theft ring. And that's what we were doing. And then, through those, through those, then they start stealing vehicles, which I gotta be careful of. I can't say, "Hey, I want a, I want a brand new F-350-"

Narrator 44:16 Right, right, right.

Scott Payne 44:16 "... wide cab," because then they go steal it. I, that's somewhat of entrapment. I just led them to go steal that car, right? Um, but over the next year or so, we're getting more and more stuff. I buy dope from 'em. Um, like I said, carjackings. We learned of them, certain members extorting people, like the good old mafia days, you know? Extorting businesses, home invasions. Um, but again, for the listeners listening, to hear that at a bar and say, "Yeah, we robbed that house," is that enough to charge somebody? Probably not. Is an assistant United States attorney going to be like, "Yeah, that's enough"? No, we're going to have to dive in more and find out, and vet it out and get that evidence.

Narrator 44:56 Wow. Stressful shit.

Scott Payne 44:59 Slightly.

Narrator 44:59 Get stressed out just thinking about you doing all these things.

Scott Payne 45:02 Me too.

Narrator 45:03 So, like, how-

Scott Payne 45:04 (laughs)

Narrator 45:04 ... how long is this relationship while you're building a case? Like, how, how much time are you spending with these people?

Scott Payne 45:11 I was pro- for that case, I was probably up there every three weeks for a good week. But then there's constant contact when I'm not there. Nextels.

Narrator 45:18 Text messages.

Scott Payne 45:18 Yeah, N- Well, Nextels were big with them at that point in time. So yeah, Chirps.

Narrator 45:22 Oh, the, those, the, uh-

Scott Payne 45:22 Chirps, yeah.

Narrator 45:23 ... the old days, the walkie talkie one.

Scott Payne 45:24 Th- radio, yeah.

Narrator 45:25 Yeah, those were funny.

Scott Payne 45:26 They're like (walkie talkie sound) .

Narrator 45:27 People forgot about them walkie talkies.

Scott Payne 45:28 Yeah. Yeah, man. Uh, it was (laughs) what was crazy about that was-

Narrator 45:32 (coughs)

Scott Payne 45:32 ... you could key up and talk to somebody in Japan, and it'd be crystal clear, but if you tried to call somebody, it was the worst connection ever.

Narrator 45:37 Yeah, they were terrible phones.

Scott Payne 45:38 Yeah, but that's what they used, and that's what I got, and I was mirroring them.

Narrator 45:41 Hmm.

Scott Payne 45:42 But, uh, yeah, so you build those relationships, and it depends. Each case is different, but I will say that the tightest relationship I had on that case was Scot Town. Um, it was absolutely scary how similar we were, um, and how tight we were. Uh, now again, he didn't know I was Scot Payne, FBI undercover, but he knew I was Scott Calloway, and he knew... I mean, it, it would be to the point to where if we were going out to do an op that evening, an operation, um, they wouldn't put it in the operations plan, but they would ask, "Hey, is Scot Town going to be there tonight?" And I'm like, "Yeah." And, and even the FBI cover teams and stuff would be like, "Good," 'cause they knew that he cared enough about me, he'd take a bullet for me and protect me, and vice versa, really, for as me as Scott Calloway. And, I mean, we finished each others' sentences. We thought the same, other than the criminal stuff, uh, and some faith belief systems. But, uh, yeah, that was my tightest, and the second one over the two years was probably a guy whose road name was Clothesline, and he was the enforcer for the Taunton chapter. And then after that, it probably would've been The President, which was Joe Dogs, and then it just trickles down from there.

Narrator 46:52 Do you have conflicted feelings when you develop, like, these relationships with these guys?

Scott Payne 46:57 I did. Um, you can put on as much training, you can get the training, you can be a part of it. I'm still human, you know. Uh, now, was I to a point to where I'm gonna go, "I'm leaving the FBI, and I'm going to become a one percenter"?

Narrator 47:12 (laughs) Some people do, though, right?

Scott Payne 47:14 Uh, no. I know some people do, but I wasn't there. I wouldn't, I wouldn't do that.

Narrator 47:17 How often does that happen?

Scott Payne 47:19 Well, I don't kn- uh, in the FBI, probably not a lot, b- but those cases are well known. If something happens like that, somebody goes rogue, like, uh, you know, your breach story, and all these people selling secrets and getting people killed, yeah. I, I wasn't there. I, nor would I be. I wouldn't be. I would like to think if I did have a one percenter club, nobody would ever infiltrate it, though.

Narrator 47:39 Well, you probably understand how it works.

Scott Payne 47:42 (laughs) I'm just kidding.

Narrator 47:43 But even then-

Scott Payne 47:44 Yeah, I know.

Narrator 47:44 ... I mean, you're dealing with ragamuffin people.

Scott Payne 47:47 Yeah.

Narrator 47:47 Like, how are you gonna know?

Scott Payne 47:49 But, but-

Narrator 47:49 How are you going to know who's real?

Scott Payne 47:49 ... those are like, again, those are my kinds of people. When we're riding around and we're, and, and people are wrestling each other over tables, this is my favorite move, bang. I mean, at one point, I'm driving down the road with Scot Town in a snow storm, and I'm driving, and I'm like this with my hand. He reaches over out of nowhere and breaks my pinky. Just pop, and this sucker's like 90 degrees. And I'm like, "Motherfu-" I pulled over. I slammed on the brake. Well, I mean snow, but (wiper sound) come to a stop, and I go, "What the F is your problem?" And he's looking at me, and he's going, "Heh, heh, heh, heh." I don't know what he was on, but he was in an evil space, right? And I'm looking at him, and I'm going, "Look, if you want to F-in' fight, we'll stand out in the damn snowstorm right now and we'll go at it. I know you think you can whip me, but maybe I can whip you." And I saw it wasn't going anywhere, and he was getting more and more angry, and then I just looked at him and I went, "He's an animal right now. I'm gonna diffuse. I'm gonna deescalate," which is really what you should be doing as an undercover. And I look over and I go, "Hey, hey." After I pop my finger in, I go, "Hey, sniff."... smell. Good boy.

Joe Rogan 48:56 (laughs)

Scott Payne 48:56 Friend. Friend. Like that. I'm trying to calm him down, and then he starts laughing. But that's the kind of stuff you get. But to me, it was no different than being in college, playing ball.

Joe Rogan 49:05 Hanging out with psychos.

Scott Payne 49:06 Yeah. When you're there in the month of August and nobody is there, it's just 24/7 football.

Joe Rogan 49:10 What was it like when you eventually brought that guy down?

Scott Payne 49:13 It was sad. It was sad-

Joe Rogan 49:15 Man.

Scott Payne 49:15 ... because, in that case, uh, there was a point where I- I had a young daughter, and his youngest daughter was roughly the same age as my daughter. So I'm not at home with my kid, but I'm in his house bouncing his daughter on my lap. And th- You know, that, uh, when they're developing, uh, as a human being, they're, at that stage, they're kind of making the same noises, moving the same way. It was- it was surreal. And then I remember thinking, "Man, I mean, I really like this guy." You know? "He likes to drink, I like to drink. He likes to fight, I like to fight. He likes to ride, I like to ride. He likes to live, I like to live." Like, man, we finish each other's sentences, everything I already said. And then I look over at his, uh, refrigerator, and- and I see all these stickers and magnets and stuff, and my eyes just settled in on WWSD. And for the listeners that don't know, WWJD is very common in the Christ follower or Christian community, What Would Jesus Do? Um, you see the bracelets all the time. And I look over and it said WWSD, What Would Satan Do? And I looked, and I went, "Oh, yeah, we're not the same."

Joe Rogan 50:20 (laughs)

Scott Payne 50:20 We're not the... I'm back. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:23 (laughs)

Scott Payne 50:23 I used to... We'd be in the clubhouse, and everybody's yelling. They're like, you know... If- For the, again, people who don't know, whatever your biker club name is, you usually get these same sayings. So for the Outlaws, it's "Outlaws forever." "Forever Outlaws." "Hell yeah, yeah, yeah." "God forgives, Outlaws don't." "Yeah, yeah." "It's better to be first in hell than second in heaven." And I'm like, "What?" (laughs)

Joe Rogan 50:47 (laughs)

Scott Payne 50:48 "T?" What's...

Joe Rogan 50:50 Hang on.

Scott Payne 50:50 I'm like, "I'm not saying I'm a chalk walking Christian, 'cause I'm pretending to be a 1%er, (laughs) you know, evil man, but what story... Have you ever heard of hell where it was good? I mean, are we, (laughs) you helping me out here?" So yeah, it's- it's a crazy bunch. But on that case, one of the biggest things that happened is, um, we had been going for a year and a half and doing all these things. Uh, they've carjacked stuff. We're getting more and more evidence. There was a Hells Angel president murdered, uh, in Connecticut, Bridgeport, Connecticut, and-

Joe Rogan 51:21 Terrible town.

Scott Payne 51:22 Yeah. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 51:23 Terrible town.

Scott Payne 51:24 Is it? I don't-

Joe Rogan 51:24 Oh, Bridgeport's dangerous.

Scott Payne 51:25 So- so Bridgeport, Connecticut, and, um, the other Hells Angel that was shot didn't die, and he was able to give a description of a green truck with Florida plates. We knew at that time that Florida Outlaws were up in that area, 'cause they were hanging out with our targets. Um, and even when I would call, I'd be like, "Hey, man, what's up, man? It's hot here right now. If you come out, you need to be strapping." I'm like, "Well, I don't want to fly with it. I don't want to put a, you know, bullseye on my back," back then. Um, I'm like, "Hey, if I show up, man, we'll give you a vest, we'll give you a gun," kind of thing. So we're doing all that, and now we get to the point to where we can... All the predication is there. Uh, they- you- they've done wiretaps. The case team has been doing a wiretap. They know that there's drug deals going on. They're doing surveillance. And now we're to the point to where, uh, we can introduce that I used to be in the dope game as well. Um, my story was that the reason I got out of it and only did the stolen stuff was because some of my peeps got popped, 'cause the heat was getting close, so I- I pulled chocks and I was out. And all I do now is move stolen equipment down, because it's a lot less, uh... Uh, the way I explained it, it was less likely for law enforcement to catch me. And- and then they would ask, you know, "Well, how come a white guy is not cut out by all these Mexicans you're working with?" And I go, "Because I'm the gringo that has the contact at the port of entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through." And that was really happening on the border, and I knew that, 'cause I was on the border working it. Again, real things, you're just- you're just putting them into your story. Um, but I now let them know it took a long time. I don't put words in their mouth. Um, but I started laying breadcrumbs over weeks and months that I did used to be in the dope game. And, of course, Joe Dog, the president, I mean, the first time I met him and he said, (laughs) "Where are you from?" I said, "McAllen, Texas, on the border." His next question was, "How much can you get a kilo of cocaine for?" And I went, (laughs) "Well, if we were needing predication..." I think he just gave it. Uh, but his business skills weren't that great, 'cause I'd say, "Look, man, about 13 grand is what you could get a kilo for then on the border." He said, "Man, so if I got 10 of them up here for 13..." I'm like, "No, that's not going to cost 13 up here." (laughs) There's a reason the kilo costs 25 to 30 grand up here, because somebody has to get it from the border to here. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 53:48 Right.

Scott Payne 53:48 Now, if you want to drive down to the border and buy 10 for 13 a piece, then you risk taking them back over, but... Um, so we let it be known, uh, that- that I had some cartel... Uh, of course they knew I had cartel contacts, and we started introducing those. Some cameo undercovers came in, unbelievable people. Um, and we ended up doing what some refer to as a drug protection. Uh, there was going to be a drug shipment coming in, and my crew was going to be delivering it to another crew, and we needed protection. And we did it in Brockton, um, and several Outlaws hopped in on it. Uh, the issue was this. At least one of the big issues. Pretty much, that case, I had a great time. Yes, it's violent and my- my mentality was changing. There is a podcast that's, uh, a- it's a series that's going to be coming out, um, with the book, and they actually interview one of the, uh, task force officers who was over me on that case, on the Outlaws. And I remember him calling me. He's like, "Hey, what, say, what can I..." I said, "Tell them the truth." I said, "I want to know- I want to know what you were thinking." I know what I was thinking. And it was really-... really surreal to hear him talking about he could see my personality changing. He could see, and like the FBI office might be saying, "We want him to patch." And he was over here fighting going, "Hell no, we're getting everything we need now. If he patches then they can order him to do shit." And it was just really cool to hear that. But, uh, essentially for the case, it was me, an FBI case agent, and two task force officers. Uh, we had, uh, Detective Joe Cummings from Brockton PD, Sergeant Higginbottom from the Massachusetts State Troopers, and then an agent with the FBI. And that was it. I mean, they would add some here and there but for two years that was it, it was us. So now we get to this point to where we're like, "Man, let's do this drug protection." And the assistant United States attorney was like, "Hey, if you're gonna be at the clubhouse," or di- did they talk about this at the clubhouse? We're like, "Uh, yeah." And he goes, "Well, that'd be awesome if we could get that recorded." Because it helps, right, to show what they're planning on doing. Um, so the night before the deal is supposed to happen, they don't know it, but we've got 40 kilos of real cocaine and 1,000 pounds of weed. Real. Um, so you can imagine SWAT teams are involved because can y- I mean, can you imagine if the FBI lost 40 kilos of cocaine-

Joe Rogan 56:03 (laughs)

Scott Payne 56:04 ... and, and Brockton and Tauntons are all wide awake for the next week, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:08 (laughs)

Scott Payne 56:08 Or there's ODs, you know?

Joe Rogan 56:10 Right.

Scott Payne 56:10 'Cause that's a liability. Um, (laughs) "Did you say you had 40 kilos? There's only 39 here." Hm, I don't know. No, I'm just messing with you. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 56:18 (laughs)

Scott Payne 56:19 But, uh, so they say... Hey, Joe Dogs calls me. It's night at church. He says, "Hey, I need you to come to the clubhouse." I'm like, "All right, cool." And of course I'm thinking I'm type A, "I'm Scott Payne, I got this. Let's go do this, man. These are my boys, I've been doing this a year and a half." And I went into the clubhouse, and what I couldn't see, and I won't say where the recording devices were at because that's tradecraft, um, but let's just say I had a video and recording device hidden somewhere in my clothing, I had a completely audio recording device somewhere else on me, and I had a transmitter, batteries so, so the team could listen in. Um, and I went into the clubhouse, like normal, but what you can't see, if you go back and you watch the video, is if I'm facing this way, and I'm shooting the shit with you and this is the bar, and you're laughing at my jokes like always, when I would turn my head to look this way, it's still filming and I didn't see it 'cause I turned my head. They go stone face.

Joe Rogan 57:18 Oh.

Scott Payne 57:19 And I di- I missed it. I didn't see it. Um, I do know that when I got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on the door, I'm knocking on the door. I'm like, "What the f-" You know, Joe Dogs props me. He goes, "Hey, hey, we're not ready yet." And I give him, "Why the hell did you tell me to come?" I was being a smart ass. I'm like, "Pff. What's the deal? Why would you say come if you're not ready?" I didn't pick anything up. So I go in, and for the listeners, uh, that may not know, uh, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a Patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it several times. They wanted me to patch. But I, I'm with the, what I said for the task force officer. I said the same thing, I'm like, "Look, if I'm a probate and they say, 'Get your shit, Tex, we're gonna go jack this dude,' I kind of gotta go. I mean, if I don't do it, I'm either getting kicked out or beat down or whatever."

Joe Rogan 58:03 Right.

Scott Payne 58:04 Um, but being a high ranking member of an international theft ring that they're making money off of, it's a little different. I, we, we were getting everything we wanted. So I go in the clubhouse. I miss that. I also miss that in the back, uh, one of them, Chocolate Scott, it looks like he's dancing to the song that's playing, but he's warming up, and I miss that. And then my second closest contact, Clothesline, says, "Hey, Tex, you got a minute?" And I said, "Yeah." And we walk... I'd been in that clubhouse I don't know how many times, Joe, eight? But there's one door I'd never been in, and that's the door we went in, and it was a very tight stairwell into, you can say a basement, but that's being very, uh, that's- I'm stretching it, because I could probably touch the wall, wall on both sides and I couldn't stand up straight. So they bring me down in there, they brandish their weapons. One of them walks in behind me, he's on the steps. So they got their pistols. And, uh, my friend says, "Hey, there's a lot of shit going on. It's my job to take care of my brothers. I need you to write down your full name, your address, your phone number, all kinds of stuff. Uh, and I need you to take off all your clothes. I need to check you for a wire."

Joe Rogan 59:12 Whoa.

Scott Payne 59:12 Here's the problem. Had I not been wired, embarrassing, yes. Naked with a bunch of men around you in a cold basement? (laughs) Yeah, that would, that would have been bad, but it would have been no threat. Um, but I was wired to the hilt. And so you think, man, do you fight? Do you try to get out? Well, there's already two or three there. I'm probably gonna do some Tommy boy shit and knock myself out on the joist as soon as I start trying to fight. And then upstairs there's what, 10 more outlaws. And that door, when I was getting into earlier and I didn't say, uh, if you're not a Patch member, you can't touch the door. That door has more than one deadbolt on it. They had welded metal hooks to the frame and put one of those like shipyard metal bars across. So from a breacher's standpoint, it's a fortified door. It might be easier to breach the wall next to it. So we're down there in the basement, and when I go to write my name down, um, I forgot my middle name. And that's because I was having an oh crap moment. I had an adrenaline dump. Same thing as cops in shootouts, uh, military in shootouts, somebody in a car wreck first time. Everything... When you're having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down. You get auditory exclusion. So everything you're hearing sounds like you're underwater is going whoosh, whoosh. It's slow, like you're talking to me like this. Time dilation. Your eyes are clicking. You look and everything's in frames. Everything's slowing down. Your hamstrings get really rubbery. You feel your heart beating. You, I mean, you feel everything pulsing. Um, and what seems like 10, 15 minutes is probably 30 seconds. And that happens. That's an adrenaline dump. So that was happening. And I forgot my middle name, and I'm going Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway. I start going through this damn Rolodex in my head and I'm going, "Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway." And I'm going, "Scott Joseph." I go, "No, damn it." That was the middle, that was my middle name for another alias, you know. And I don't realize that, uh, I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence. I woulda never-... known I said it, would've never agreed I said it, had I not seen it in the recording. But I turn, and I go, "And what else do you need?" And by the way, you've got a baseline of me now, my voice. It did not sound like this on that recording. My throat was tight. The octaves were... I mean, it, it was very higher than normal, and I'm like not even enunciating that well. I'm like, "And what else do you need?" And they're like, "What?" I go, "My name and what else?" Well, now I hear them scream up, and they go, "What else do you need for that website?" So now I know, oh, they're going to Google me. Back then there was whosearatt.com, things like that. (clears throat) So I'm gathering that evidence or intelligence, and then I remember my middle name was, uh, my initials were S-A-C because I'm an idiot, and I thought it was funny because S-U... S-A-C is the head of an FBI division, and I knew I was never going to be one, so. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:01:56 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:01:56 So I made my initials S-A-C. So I remember my name's Scott Andrew Callaway, and then I write that down. Well, now I take off all my clothes. I take off my, my, my outer clothing, all my shirts. I take my boots off, and I, I basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles. Um, so pretty much naked from ankle... I mean, I'm definitely naked from ankles up. And he starts searching me, and I'm, again, I'm having an oh shit moment, and he's, he's ta... he's trying to talk to me, and, like, we've known each other for a year and a half. So I'm not saying it out loud, but if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is, "Tell me I'm okay. Is this okay?" Well, Clothesline, because we were tight, hits me back with the face, looked just like, "Everything's all right. This is just procedure." However, he didn't know that I'm an undercover agent and I'm wired. So that adds a whole nother issue. So he searches me. I think we're done. Um, he even, one point, he even tells me, he says, uh, "Trust me. If somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the fucking mouth." And I said, and those are his words, and I, I immediately said, "Well, I'm not happy." I'll tell you what I did do. I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor. And I've had people ask me, "What does that mean?" And I go, "Well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor, and they're telling you to walk on it..."

Joe Rogan 1:03:17 They're going to cut you open.

Scott Payne 1:03:18 Yeah. You're just, just to, just to clean up the blood.

Joe Rogan 1:03:21 Yeah.

Scott Payne 1:03:21 I didn't see that. I saw a rope. I saw pistols, and I knew I didn't have a chance in hell of getting out of there in one piece. So he, he finishes, and he's, uh, he's, he's saying something. He goes, he goes, "Wouldn't you be suspect if somebody comes to ta... your town and starts doing all this shit with you?" I said, "Yeah, if you came to me." I didn't come to you guys. Y'all called me over. Nobody has to do this shit. (laughs) I'm like, "What are we..." You know? Nobody has to do anything, right? And I think we're done. So I pull my pants back up, and I think we're done. And he grabs a piece of clothing of mine, and he starts kneading it and going through it. Now, this is 2005 to 2007-ish, so techni- technology today is way better than it was then, just like technology is. But, uh, let's just say this. Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would've felt something. And he says, as a joke, when he starts, he goes, "Hey, uh, I'm not going to find anything in here I don't want to, like some naked pictures of my old lady." And he laughs, and I... uh, his laugh is like... (laughs) And my laugh is like... (laughs) You know?

Joe Rogan 1:04:32 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:04:32 And then I'm watching him go down this piece of clothing, and he's doing this, and he's kneading it. And, and I... You can hear, I... Again, I don't know how I do it, but on the recording, you can hear me go, (sighs) an audible sigh, because I'm like watching it, and I'm going, "What the f- What am I gonna do?" So here's how it ends. He doesn't find it.

Joe Rogan 1:04:57 Wow.

Scott Payne 1:04:59 Almost. I mean, like, very, very close. Um, and by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up, and now I've got another adrenaline dump. And now I've come in, I'm like, "Son of a bitch," (laughs) in those peaks and valleys. And, uh, everybody that I've taught this to or spoke about it to always ask. They're like, "Man, what would you have said?" And I'll tell you. I had two responses. Because I'm a jovial idiot, my first response, if he would have said, "What is this?" I would've probably said, "I don't know, some naked pictures of your old lady," to try to buy myself some time, maybe make him quit searching. The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember it like it was yesterday, I would have said, "The gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here, and we can see each other in court, or all hell's gonna break loose." Here's the issue, as I get a swig. (drinks) That would've been a bluff on my part because as far as I knew, every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me, for whatever reasons, because somebody's going to say it's tradecraft. But again, this is 2005 to 2008, but they could never really hear me in that clubhouse. And I make it out. Uh, I end up going out with Scott Town and Joe Dogs that night. But what happens is I am legitimately pissed off because now my adrenaline's coming back down, and I'm, I'm taking it personal. I shouldn't. I'm undercover as an FBI agent. I'm not really Scott Callaway. I mean, I'm kind of Scott Callaway.

Joe Rogan 1:06:28 But you're so deep in the role.

Scott Payne 1:06:30 Well, and it's really me, kind of. I mean, that's the whole thing. I never was far off of who I really am in life.

Joe Rogan 1:06:35 Right.

Scott Payne 1:06:35 A pedophile? Yeah. I'm, I'm... You hire me to kill somebody? No, I'm not going to ingratiate with you. I'm a stone-cold killer. But I'm hanging with you for two years or a year and a half or whatever? Yeah, the, I'm s- the jokes are kind of the same.

Joe Rogan 1:06:47 Right.

Scott Payne 1:06:47 So, so I'm pissed, and I'm, at- to... at one point, I'm telling Joe Dogs, I'm like, "You know what, man?F all you sons of b..." I said, "Y'all show up tomorrow," I said, "I'm stripping all y'all in the damn parking lot." You know, I was just blow... uh, and they were nice. They let me vent my stuff. Well, that night, when I went to turn in my equipment, uh, at an undisclosed location, probably 3:00, 4:00, or 5:00 in the morning, to the case team, um, what I found out was this.... uh, the shift started with Sergeant Higginbottom, everybody called him Higgy, uh, and Joe, the detectives, uh, the detective. Uh, these guys are awesome, phenomenal law enforcement officers. Uh, although I think their love language is yelling. (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:07:30 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:07:30 Maybe that's my Southern thing mixing with the Northeast thing. But, uh, uh, they told me, they said, "Scott, we heard you in there." And I'm like, "What?" When I had that first interaction with Joe Dogs, they are very street smart, they're very good investigators, and they have been working this group forever. Something that happened in that first interaction made their Spidey senses, or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer, uh, say, "Something's not right." They had pulled close enough, they heard everything. They put on their vests, they suited up and because they'd been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door.

Joe Rogan 1:08:10 Oh my God.

Scott Payne 1:08:10 Just to smash that, you know. Uh, sometimes I'm teaching this, I'll joke about it and say, "It probably would've killed me because I was in the basement, you know."

Joe Rogan 1:08:16 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:08:18 (laughs) Reverse, back up.

Joe Rogan 1:08:21 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:08:21 (laughs) You're so damn heavy. But, um, at that moment, I was scared to death, right? So they tell me what happened was, they pulled close enough, they heard everything. They're suiting up. They have radioed now, because it's kind of the beginning of the shift, they've radioed now back to Boston. Everybody that's working that night is now blue lights and siren all the way down to, uh, hauling ass to Taunton, Massachusetts. So, uh, I say this in a jovial way, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine. We went through the FBI academy together. And, uh, that night, um, again, I'm still shell-shocked. He says, "Man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on, I felt like I was in there with you." And I looked at him and I said, "You weren't." (laughs)

Joe Rogan 1:09:04 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:09:05 I was like... I was like, because I was looking for any friendly face I could find in that damn hole. But, uh, so, uh, that night, um, we haven't talked about my family. I, I try not... well, I tell you about it. In my, in the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended, you know, 911 hangups, stuff like that. But at that point in time, uh, I'd bought my wife... everybody's pretty familiar now with a burner phone, but I'd bought my wife a, a phone that came back to nothing so my undercover phone could call that phone, not-

Joe Rogan 1:09:38 Right.

Scott Payne 1:09:38 ... violating the operational security. That night, Joe, when I called her, I'd always call her every night, and again, 5:00, 7:00 in the morning, it didn't matter, and it might just be she wakes up and says, "Hello?" And I go, "Hey, I just wanted you to know I'm done, heading back to the hotel room. Whenever I wake up this afternoon, I'll call you." It might be that quick. That night when I called her, um, the first thing she said to me was, "Are you okay?" And I said-

Joe Rogan 1:10:01 She felt it.

Scott Payne 1:10:02 I said, "Yeah, why?" And she said, "I was driving with our daughters at such and such time in McAllen," and she said she got this overwhelming feeling and pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for me. And I matched it up, it's when I was in the basement.

Joe Rogan 1:10:16 (exhales)

Scott Payne 1:10:17 So...

Joe Rogan 1:10:19 Wow.

Scott Payne 1:10:19 S- say what you will, but, uh, damn.

Joe Rogan 1:10:23 Wow.

Scott Payne 1:10:23 Yeah. Apparently my "oh, shit" signal... (laughs) apparently I don't need Verizon or anything 'cause-

Joe Rogan 1:10:29 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:10:29 ... it went from Boston all the way to the bottom of Texas. But it's just, uh, I mean, that, that's just one of the little, uh, one of the things that happened, and it just takes a toll on you over time. Um...

Joe Rogan 1:10:41 I can only imagine.

Scott Payne 1:10:42 Yeah. So I'll get you to the next day. We do the deal. Clothesline doesn't show up. Well, that pisses me off. Wait a minute, you're supposed to be my boy and you took me into the damn basement and stripped me at gunpoint, but you can't come up... you, you don't show up the next day and help with this thing? Again, I'm taking it personal. I shouldn't. So everybody knew there was a beef. Let's just fast-forward a month or two. I go back home. I come back and Big Scotty had even said, he goes, "Look, these guys are going to settle this like grown men face-to-face. It ain't gonna happen over the damn phone." So the next time I go back to Massachusetts, I'm at a cantina we used to go hang at and drink at in Bridgewater. And, uh-

Joe Rogan 1:11:24 Another hard town.

Scott Payne 1:11:25 Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so, uh, (laughs) you know, these, these are my people. This is where I get called.

Joe Rogan 1:11:31 Yeah.

Scott Payne 1:11:31 (laughs) We did not do any, uh, meetings at the Long Wharf Marriott.

Joe Rogan 1:11:34 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:11:34 You know what I mean? (laughs) "Uh-huh, why would you like to meet at Legal Seafoods tonight-

Joe Rogan 1:11:39 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:11:39 ... my fellow criminals?" You know?

Joe Rogan 1:11:42 (laughs)

Scott Payne 1:11:42 (laughs) Yeah. Uh, so (coughs) so I'm at this cantina, and Clothesline walks in. Now, you got to remember, the last time I saw this dude, he took me into a damn basement. And he looked a little rough, like a little whipped, you know, like he'd been disheveled. And he says, "Hey, man, can I talk to you for a minute?" And the first thing I said was "No." And he says, "Why?" And I said, "Because the last time you asked me that shit, I ended up naked in the basement." (laughs) No. So he says, "Ah, it's like that." So we went back in the kitchen and we're talking. And what we learned, or what I learned and the case team learned, is when we upped the ante to do that drug deal, um, and again, a lot of those Outlaws were pushing for it because as a drug dealer, what are you always looking for? Cheaper product, higher quality. That's just more money for you, right? So he was really th- especially Joe Dog, they wanted to get a pipeline. They wanted to get an introduction to the cartel so they