EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 30,588 words- 0:00 – 0:12
Intro
- NANarrator
(drumbeats) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (instrumental music plays)
- 0:12 – 4:49
From South Carolina cop to 25-year FBI undercover career
- JRJoe Rogan
Um, you've had a crazy fucking life, man.
- SPScott Payne
Tss.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like a really crazy life.
- SPScott Payne
That's what I'm saying.
- JRJoe Rogan
You spent... So to get everybody up to speed right from the beginning, you spent 25 years undercover, working for the FBI in the Klan, Nazi organizations, and biker gangs.
- SPScott Payne
And then some, yes, sir.
- JRJoe Rogan
What a crazy, crazy life that is.
- SPScott Payne
(laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
What... First of all, how did you get... How did you first get started doing that?
- SPScott Payne
Uh, good question. I grew up in South Carolina. Um, played ball, all that stuff. I- I- I was always kind of a... I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, 'cause that's not it. You've had plenty of people on this show that are complete badasses. Um, but I was kind of a bully of bullies. I didn't... I always looked out for... I liked the underdog. Um, I bounced in college, uh, so I was already learning that gift of gab, um, and fight techniques, and stuff like that. And then I got... I became a cop because I- I... When I was in college, I took a course. You know, I'm tak- I'm taking electives. I went to college so I'd have four more years to figure out what I was gonna do.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPScott Payne
'Cause I didn't know what I was doing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Me too.
- SPScott Payne
Except partying. Except, you know... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I did three years. (laughs)
- SPScott Payne
(laughs) I- I was good at partying. Um, but, uh, I had an elective that was criminal justice, and, man, I really liked it. Um, psychology was always a strong thing for me, but it took a back seat, and I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology. But during those criminal justice courses, I was like... At first, for a fleeting moment, I said, "I'm gonna be an attorney. Yeah, I'll be an attorney." And then I realized, I'd be a terrible attorney.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
I said, because if I was the defense attorney and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, "They did it." Right? That's not gonna get me any clients. And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kinison, grabbing them and going, "Say it."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
"Say it." You know? "You did it." So I'm like, yeah, that's probably not the best role for me. And, uh, I did a ride along with cops in the, uh, in the department, and that was it. But once I got into law enforcement, I was uniform patrol for three years, uh, I was just so fascinated with undercover. I don't know what it was. I can't really remember. Doing the book, I've tried to dive back in. People ask. I don't really remember. I just know that I loved undercover movies, period. If it was a biker undercover, I don't care how cheesy it was, I love them all.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPScott Payne
And then one of my mentors at the sheriff's office, uh, he was actually the World's Strongest Man in the late '80s, after Kazmaier.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- SPScott Payne
He was a, he was a former Marine, um, and big dude. And he, as a- as a task force, had gone... On a task force, had gone undercover in some biker gangs. And man, I just... I- I was... I wanted to be a biker. I grew up on motorcycles, and then it just started taking off from there.
- JRJoe Rogan
You got to think that biker gangs are probably super suspicious of people being undercover 'cause it's such a theme.
- SPScott Payne
(laughs) You think?
- JRJoe Rogan
It's been around... (laughs) Right? It's been around forever, the stories of guys infiltrating biker gangs.
- SPScott Payne
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's been around forever.
- SPScott Payne
40 plus years right now. Easy.
- 4:49 – 10:30
Early undercover basics: first narcotics buy and learning the craft
- JRJoe Rogan
So do you remember your first undercover assignment?
- SPScott Payne
Uh, yes. Yeah. Uh...
- JRJoe Rogan
What'd you have to do?
- SPScott Payne
Uh... (laughs) It was at the sheriff's office. So I... After three years in uniform, I make it, uh, to narcotics investigator. Well, you got... It's, it's a tough crowd. But we're funny, you know. But it's, it's just like a good military group or anything else. There's gonna be a lot of ribbing and stuff like that. So they, they said, "Hey, you're gonna go buy some dope tonight." It was my first time. Now, granted, I bought weed and stuff in high school when I was around these groups, but I never bought crack cocaine. I was already probably 6'4", and I probably was like 270 pounds. I did not look like I had smoked crack.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
Unless I just fell off the wagon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Just feel
- NANarrator
... recently.
- SPScott Payne
Or I just started. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right. (laughs)
- SPScott Payne
I'm, I'm the vegan that shows up still smelling like beef, you know.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right, right, right.
- SPScott Payne
I just stopped. Uh, but they told me. They're like, "Hey, it's real easy. You're just gonna roll down to this corner as a non-drug, drug, drug trafficking area. You're gonna roll down there. White boy, you're gonna roll down the window. They're gonna come up to you and say, 'What do you want?'" And back then, it was a 20. You just get a rock. 20 bucks for a rock and so... All you got to do is hold that 20 and say, "Just want a 20." So I drive down there. (laughs) I know I w- I was... I know I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone, but I was also scared to make a fool of myself...... in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me. And I roll down the street, and I pull up, and they come running up to the window, "What you want? What you want?" I crack the window. (laughs) I crack it about this far, and I stick a 20 like I'm trying to go to a vending machine.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
I'm like, "I want a 20." You know? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
And the dude's like, he takes the 20, but he can't hand me the crack rock back through the cracked window. He's like, "Roll the damn window down." And I'm like, "Uh, my bad." Uh, it was probably like a sliver of soap. Who knows? But that was my first drug buy, first undercover, like legit.
- JRJoe Rogan
And so what was the protocol? Like, you had to buy the drug, and then what do you do?
- SPScott Payne
It depends, uh, case-by-case basis. We may wanna make numerous buys on that corner, try to come in with the jump out boys, they used to call them, and shut that corner down for a while. We may be trying to, to make buys on the low-level people on the corner selling who are probably most likely users, at least it was my experience. So maybe like every five crack rocks they sold, they can peel one for themselves. Um, and maybe we wanna get them, build a case on them, kind of try to climb it up.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. And then find out who's the distributor?
- SPScott Payne
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
This episode is brought to you by Visible. Is your wireless full of stuff you didn't sign up for, you don't need, or don't understand? Visible gives you everything you want from wireless with nothing you don't. No confusing plans, no hidden fees, no nonsense. With Visible, you get unlimited data, talk, and text powered by Verizon's 5G network, plus unlimited hotspots included. Plus, they're an all-digital wireless service, so you can easily switch within a matter of minutes from your phone either in their app or online. Ready to switch? Get the Visible plan. One line with unlimited wireless for just $25 a month every month, taxes and fees included. So you know exactly what you're paying every single month. Don't think wireless could be more transparent? So Visible? Well, now you know. Switch today at visible.com/rogan. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details.
- SPScott Payne
And that's, th- that was like the state and local, um, we, you know, hit it, uh... Everybody's a little different, but three buys, hit them with a search warrant kind of thing, something like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, uh, ultimately, so when you're doing this, um, you're, you're, you're buying. You're trying to get a, d- develop some sort of a relationship or an understanding of how this thing goes down. How do you get to who's selling it to them? Do you have to arrest them first?
- SPScott Payne
You can. You can, or you can do, uh... There's all kinds of ways, but you could do like a wall off. In other words, not let everybody see us pick you off, you know, so you don't get burned.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPScott Payne
Bring you in, talk to you. "And this is what we got on you. We're trying to figure out who it is." And it's just traditional law enforcement. You're trying to find more intel and work your way up.
- JRJoe Rogan
And do you offer them like immunity or something like that?
- SPScott Payne
Depends. Some people are, some people do it out of the goodness of their heart.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- 10:30 – 15:45
Why the FBI enables deeper undercover work than local policing
- SPScott Payne
But one thing I noticed in the, uh, at the state level was, we would all go, back then, the South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy is in Columbia, South Carolina. So we would go there, um, and get certified. But in your county, I mean, how many ways can I shave... I'm, I'm in the same county, and you're going out here making buys. How many times can I change my car, change my outfit, change my facial hair, the hair on my head until everybody starts knowing I'm a narc, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
Um, 'cause when you're in that local environment, and I mean, I'm talking Greenville, South Carolina. Miami might be a little bit different or New York City, but you're going to court a lot, and people are seeing you in court.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPScott Payne
And then, so how do you roll out there? So a lot of it turns into just running sources. Um, to me, uh, I believe developing and running sources is hand-in-hand with undercover because other than them not being a bonded law enforcement officer, um, and, and I don't have a felon on my record, but they do, they're still the ones we're wiring up and going in to get the evidence.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPScott Payne
So a lot of it, uh, over the last many years with the, uh, defund the police and the, and the black eye, it's hard to recruit. It's hard enough to get people to fill the uniform slots, uh, so you really don't have anybody doing undercover, um, most of, most of your smaller departments that I've taught or talked to or learned from is, uh, they're just running sources.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really? So this all stopped during defund the police?
- SPScott Payne
Oh, a lot.
- JRJoe Rogan
So like the George Floyd times?
- SPScott Payne
Yeah, a lot of it. Yeah, it's a, the pendulum swings, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPScott Payne
Um, or it could be that because generations are different these days, people come to apply, and they've got felons on their record. And we're like, "Bro, you can't...You can't be a cop. You got a felon on your record, you know? But I remember thinking, "Wouldn't it be kind of cool if South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy had all of the certified undercovers in some type of database where it says, 'Hey, Scott's skillset is biker, you know, riding motorcycles, can go in a biker bar or whatever, strip clubs, this, that, and the other.' Maybe Charleston County needs somebody. Wouldn't that be cool if I could just shoot down there and, and make buys for Charleston County, but go back, and that way nobody knows me in Charleston County?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
And when I got in the FBI, that's kind of what they do. You get certified in the FBI and you, I mean, you can go around the world.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what was your initial job in the FBI?
- SPScott Payne
The f- You are a case agent. When you get hired, you're sup- the, uh, only responsibility you have, uh, really, is you are a case agent. And that means you investigate, you do your own cases. Uh, I did that the entire career. Even when I was doing undercover, I was still a case agent. But I, uh, I went through the academy. I got New York City as my first office, and New York is the largest office, so they put you kind of, like, on a rotation. You don't just go straight to a squad. You're gonna be like... They want you to learn the city. They want you to learn the ins and outs of having a placard and the bus lane and all that stuff. Or just how to figure out how to get into the damn Lincoln Tunnel when (laughs) six lanes go like that, you know? Um, but eventually, I went through the rotation and I got placed on the Colombian drug squad. So there, then people start learning you were a certified undercover at a state level and this, that, and the other. So then there'd about be something like, say, LA takes off a 3,000... And we're talking like 2001 ish, 2000, somewhere in there. So they take off, say, 3,000 pounds of weed in LA, and it was supposed to come to New York. Well, we go with them and say, "Man, can you send us all the stuff..." They're, they're cutting leads to us saying, "Hey, it was supposed to go to this address." But we gotta build the exact replica box, and it depends on the US attorney working the case. They may want... Assistant United States attorney. They may want to just us deliver it, and that's good enough. Some may want us to deliver it, pull away, and then they've got a hidden switch or something that, uh, notifies us when they open it, just to make that case tighter.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- SPScott Payne
So I started doing cameos on stuff like that, and then, uh, and then I landed an undercover, which I don't really talk about in the book because it's classified. And we are coming up on 25 years, which is usually when they declassify them. It's kind of been outed, but I just don't talk about it because I don't want to end up in the box, the, the lie detector and have somebody beating me down. But I landed that undercover, and after about 30 days in San Antonio, I became... They gave me another 60-day extension and I became the primary. And because I was there full-time working undercover, they transferred me to the San Antonio division.
- JRJoe Rogan
So the first undercover gig, what was your, like, what was your job? Like, what were you, what were you pretending to do?
- SPScott Payne
The classified one? Again, it's classified.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay.
- SPScott Payne
But I will say this. I was a security guard. Can you imagine being a cop with a cool uniform, with a real gun on your hip? And now I'm making it to the FBI and I'm working third shift as, uh, Night at the Museum, you know, with a flashlight.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, wow.
- SPScott Payne
But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover program, and sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already s- in or slated for an undercover.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm. And so how... So you eventually work your way up to probably more and more dangerous and complicated assignments?
- 15:45 – 19:38
FBI undercover certification school: stress testing to prevent failures in the field
- SPScott Payne
W- what happens, at least in my, my experience, what happened with me is I get certified. Our certification school is very, very intense. Uh, I mean, I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm 99.9% sure it's still very intense. It's two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation. Not gonna give away all the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft reasons, but let's just say that, uh, I got certified in 2002. In 2003, I started role playing an assistant at the school. I probably missed a handful of schools up until the day I retired. Um, never 100% graduation rate.
- JRJoe Rogan
How do-
- SPScott Payne
I don't, I don't know of any 100% graduation, graduation rate before I got into the program. Um, and it's not hazing. You get 20 slots. Uh, so it's four groups of five. And generally, it goes like, you get some trainings during the day, and then we're running scenarios, and we're putting you into live stuff. But at day three and four, when you're really hurting for sleep, I've seen people nut out. And I... And mine are in psych. I, I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know. Maybe we were on the SWAT team together. Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away. But you go to the UC school, and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in... Uh, one of my buddies walked in, he looked like he'd been raped by a tribe.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- SPScott Payne
I, I wa- He come walking in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail- I'm like, "Are you okay?" And, uh, some people, it's just... I would say that the reason the training is like that, it's not hazing, it's just so we don't lose anybody. We try to make it as real as you can.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you got to find out who's gonna crack.
- SPScott Payne
Yeah. And think of this. In a real scenario, not all undercovers are like this, but in the ones I would usually do, there's gonna be a lot of times with no sleep. My skill set led me not to Wall Street. It didn't lead me to the yacht. It didn't lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscle for the mafia guy. Un- led me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy, crazy ass meth heads or just ideologies. So I get certified and then I go back and role play, and that's when people start kind of seeing, and you're try- I mean, you're trying to make a name for yourself. Um, I wasn't getting calls because on paper I'm a white guy with no foreign language. But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, "Hey, you got anything?" It's a big country.You got anything- more medium now, but I mean- (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
... I could even be a little country at this point, you know? But I'd be like, "Hey, you got anything for any rednecks who know foreign language?" And I'd just wear them down until they'd laugh, and then they'd finally ask me to come to the school. And once you do the school, now there's seasoned undercovers coming back, um, and they're not only there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions. And that's where I kind of started getting, getting into some things.
- JRJoe Rogan
It has to be one of the most exciting kinds of law enforcement.
- SPScott Payne
I- For me, absolutely.
- JRJoe Rogan
It has to be so crazy. Like-
- SPScott Payne
It's- We're gen- I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPScott Payne
I mean-
- JRJoe Rogan
That's got to be a gigantic rush.
- SPScott Payne
Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
They're onto us. Shh. Don't-
- JRJoe Rogan
I've talked to a few guys that have done that kind of work.
- SPScott Payne
Don't tell.
- JRJoe Rogan
And they always speak of it with sort of fond memories, about crazy it is.
- SPScott Payne
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It's weird. It's like, it's a very particular type of person that would want to put themselves in that highly stressful, adrenaline charged situation where, you know, any mistake and they find out who you really are, you're dead.
- SPScott Payne
Could be.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPScott Payne
Yeah. Now you made me second guess my career.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It seems like it worked out.
- 19:38 – 30:31
Landing a ‘big leagues’ case: infiltrating the Outlaws motorcycle club
- JRJoe Rogan
What was the first one that you got, the first assignment that you got where you were like, "Oh boy, this is big leagues"?
- SPScott Payne
That was the Outlaws case. I'd already done some undercovers, uh, again, in the FBI. I'd done several street level things, or numerous, whatever, uh, at the state level. Um, but I'd- I was doing a couple of cases in the FBI, and they were smaller. You know, maybe it was supposed to be interstate transportation of stolen goods, and it turned into a public corruption case. But when I landed the Outlaws case, that was, that was my bi- first big and probably one of the biggest I did.
- JRJoe Rogan
So how does that go? How did, how did that start?
- SPScott Payne
Um, I'm not a smart man, so that's how it started. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
They're like, "Why do you do this, Scott?" I go, "I'm not smart."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
"I am stupid. I'm a glutton for punishment. And my last name is Payne," you know? Uh, in that case they did- They'll do canvases. Um, a lot of times, so I was an undercover coordinator. Every division has an undercover coordinator, so you are the front line on all things covert, and you're the liaison between headquarters and that field office. Um, so if I had a case come up, I may already know you or whoever and be like, "Hey, I'll just put a text out to you, you interested?" Or we may just send out a canvas, and then a canvas comes from headquarters and goes to every undercover coordinator. And if it gets to the point to where no certified undercovers have responded, then they'll do like a bureau wide canvas and see what we can get. I can't remember exactly if somebody called me on that one. I'm pretty sure. I don't remember that outlaw as being a canvas, but it possibly could have been.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you fit the bill.
- SPScott Payne
W- Yeah, I'm, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You look like a outlaw biker.
- SPScott Payne
It depends on the slash Viking, whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- SPScott Payne
Yeah, yeah. It depends. See, that's what a lot of people... I'll get off on a tangent, but so- throughout my career, my, my mentors, my peers, people I've been blessed to mentor, some people come up in the office, very good friends, unbelievable agents. I mean, brainiacs, awesome. They'll be like, "Man, I can never do what you do." My beard would be down to here, whatever, tatted up. Um, and I'm like, "Well, don't do me. What do you... What's your background?" And they're like, "Well, I was an accountant." And I'm like, "With who? Before, before that job." "Oh, I was an accountant with Disney," or whatever. "I was this, I was a lawyer." Well, you be you. I can... I'm not... Somebody is probably going to be pissed because they're gonna say it's trade craft. But listen, I could bring you in, um, and you just walk into the group. I'm the primary. I've already laid all this stuff out. It's a chess game. We're always trying to stay four or five moves ahead, or master of puppets. I'm just trying to connect with people and work, work the scene. But you come in and you dress as an accountant and you talk like an accountant and then you walk out, you're you. It's real.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
So-
- JRJoe Rogan
So there's roles for all sorts of different types of personalities-
- SPScott Payne
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... and life skills?
- SPScott Payne
Yeah. And I'm like, "You might see something where they say, 'I need a person this tall, that speaks this language, that does this and knows this,'" but what are you trying to do? Essentially, the FBI works everything. Um, and if, if a target... If we have predication or predicated target or there's information coming in about somebody doing something nefarious, if we want to do an undercover, how do, how do I get close to you? I mean, what do you find attractive? Usually it's money, in the criminal world. It's green, right?
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPScott Payne
You can see the Mexican mafia working with the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas. They hate each other, but they love green.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- SPScott Payne
And one needs guns and one needs dope, and you know, it all... In the criminal world. But for that case, uh, I went up, I got interviewed, um, by, of course, the FBI. Um, there were task forces there, DEA was there, ATF was there, and they had been working this case for a while. And generally, this is the way it would work for me on these long term type undercovers. The case team's been working this for a long time. They... A year plus. They've been building intelligence. Now, they've got some evidence already, maybe a seizure of dope here, report of a carjacking here. But to get that airtight case and to find out what's really going on, now they're at the point to where they can use the investigative technique, which is undercover. And, uh, we came up with a plan, um, and I, and, and I went, I went in cold. I tried to bump them, as we say, a cold bump. But, uh, I went into a bar that they frequented. I went there when they weren't there. It was a strip club. I used to bounce at strip clubs. In the book, I make a, a joke, uh, because I call them a gentleman's club, but then I say that's an oxymoron, because... (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) Right.
- SPScott Payne
I'm like, everyone I've been in, there's not a lot of gentlemen in there, and that includes me back in the whatever days they were.But I knew how they work. So I went in there and I just started hanging out, and I, of course, this accent in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm getting noticed as soon as I start talking.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
"Where the hell are you from?" And I kind of worked that, and started working the bar, doing what I do. Uh, not ev- everybody has their own way, um, and let me say this since it's at the beginning. Listen, there, uh, for me, I want people to know it comes from a humble spot. There are men and women out there that have done way more undercovers than me. They have been through more harrowing things than me. I already said, I've got mentors, I've got peers, I've got people I've been blessed to mentor. Um, some of them don't want to talk, uh, some of them haven't had the opportunity. So just know it's coming from a, a love kind of place.
- JRJoe Rogan
Got it. So when you say you work in the bar, what do you mean, you just like making friends with people there?
- SPScott Payne
What I did last night here in Austin. (laughs)
- 30:31 – 40:35
Undercover tradeoffs: drinking, potential drug exposure, and courtroom risk
- JRJoe Rogan
Are you allowed to get drunk?
- SPScott Payne
Uh, boy, that's a tricky question. Yes, I can drink. Um, but here's the thing. Uh, let's say that outlaws case, that was two years. So there's two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a Jack and Coke up, right? Um, I was, I'm an anal. Uh, even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I'm pretty tight, and I wanted to be good. I wanted to always get better and be more well-rounded. So I would watch, and even if I caught myself at 5:00 in the morning, 6:00 in the morning slurring, as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, "Dadgum it, man." And then I'd listen, and within five minutes I'd be back because you got to remember, all that could be played in front of a jury.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- SPScott Payne
And if I'm on there slurring-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
... and saying a bunch of stupid stuff-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
... I mean, how does that affect my articulation-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
... for what I was doing? Um, but was my alcohol tolerance very high?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) You know, you're a big dude.
- SPScott Payne
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You probably put some away.
- SPScott Payne
I did.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
I kind of still do. I tell you, I, I tell you what, uh, what put me on a three-month timeout with CPI. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- SPScott Payne
Yeah. 'Cause you go down there and you get the, uh, stem cells-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, let's explain it. We're talking about the Cellular Performance Institute that, uh, my friends, uh, run down in Tijuana.
- SPScott Payne
Absolutely. Great, great facility. Uh, I will tell you the... my previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, uh, I almost died. I had a hip replacement and it got sepsis... I got sepsis-
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
... and I almost died.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oof.
- SPScott Payne
So 14 days after my total hip replacement, quickest surgery I've ever had, about 30 minutes, chopped the femur off, drill it, pop, they're walking you out, you're still very high on all your... (laughs) They're like, "If you can walk, you can go home." And I'm like, "I can't walk?" (laughs) But, uh, uh, apparently something happened and it got infected. So 14 days later I had sepsis, and they got it under control, and they went back in and cleaned me all out. I had two hip surgeries in 14 days. But-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- SPScott Payne
... fast. So now I'm going to Tijuana knowing what I know about working the border, knowing what... (laughs) Even though I'm friends with Ed and Scotty, the owners, a- and I'm like, uh, I'm like, "Man." Uh, now I'm going by myself. Um, best hospital stay I've ever had. Uh, phenomenal.
- JRJoe Rogan
CPI is great.
- SPScott Payne
It's phenomenal.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's an amazing place.
- SPScott Payne
Phenomenal. And when I-
- 40:35 – 56:19
Escalation inside the Outlaws: stolen vehicles, cartel credibility, and trust-building
- SPScott Payne
one, or you could be slipping up and getting found out. But I said where I'd been around, McAllen, grew up in South Carolina, all this stuff. He'd been to all those places 'cause he used to travel the country fighting dogs. So if I'd have been bluffing, I'd have been done right there. And then from there, we start building relationships. Now I'm trying to ingratiate, and I'm getting invited to parties. Uh, they, uh, my story was that I was a site survey specialist, and I traveled the country for investors out of Texas, and I would look at properties that they want to buy, whether res- whether it's residential or mercantile, and, you know, pull stuff from the clerk of court and all that kind of stuff. But, as it usually does in the criminal world, it came out that I also did some crimes myself. And that's when we started getting into, uh, they were doing insurance fraud first with me. Um, they would report vehicles stolen and then sell them to me for a stolen price. And the story was, since I was based out of McAllen, Texas, I'm just using the facts, uh, that we were moving vehicles to Mexico, uh, in trade for whatever. Guns, dope, most likely dope, but whatever. Um, and that's how we started. And then from there, now you start gaining more trust. You start hanging out more. You become tighter. You're building these relationships. Um, and then it's like, "Hey, we just carjacked somebody. We got this car. We took this dude at gunpoint. This thing's got LoJack or OnStar," or whatever was around then. "We know how to get rid of it. Don't worry about it. I got it." Have a truck driver show up. We load all the stolen equipment, vehicles, whatever, uh, on the truck, and they thought they were going to Mexico, but they were just going to a warehouse somewhere in Massachusetts.
- JRJoe Rogan
So you never actually brought cars to Mexico?
- SPScott Payne
No.
- JRJoe Rogan
So when you would do that, we'd just get cash from the FBI to, like, represent?
- SPScott Payne
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, they would, I would pay them, yeah, uh, a stolen price. Usually, stolen is usually 20% to 25% of what it would normally cost, you know, 'cause it's hot. Um, and that just started gaining trust. I mean, there, we, like I said, there was other undercovers that would help. We'd call those cameos, um-If, if you're the primary undercover, that's you, that's your case. Uh, a secondary undercover might mean you come in to meet me, but you stay with me for a couple of days and we go out and meet bad guys together. That's going to be a secondary role. If you're coming in as a truck driver, you're just pulling in the parking lot and we're loading up stuff, that's a cameo. And I've done many cameos for other undercovers as well. You know, just roll into town, do a deal, whatever. And then they-
- NANarrator
So no one's ever tried to go with you to Mexico to make sure that all this is happening?
- SPScott Payne
Not on that case, but if they did want to, we would have to work that out. We would have to have that kind of... 'Cause, look, I coi- I, I, I took this from a, a buddy of mine who, who I helped certify as an undercover, and I just thought it was a great way to say it, is, look, at the end of the day, we want that target going to bed thinking, "That was a good day." You don't want them laying in bed going, "Man, there's something wasn't right about that guy."
- NANarrator
Right.
- SPScott Payne
"Something, something's not right." 'Cause you want it to be as real as possible.
- NANarrator
Right.
- SPScott Payne
So is it, was it a fact that the cartels, at that point in time, loved 4x4 V8s and Harley Davidsons? Absolutely. Did they get stolen all the time on the border? Absolutely. So that's, that's factual stuff that's real. So now I'm a guy they, they, they eventually learned and believed that I was a high-ranking, high-ranking member of an international theft ring. And that's what we were doing. And then, through those, through those, then they start stealing vehicles, which I gotta be careful of. I can't say, "Hey, I want a, I want a brand new F-350-"
- NANarrator
Right, right, right.
- SPScott Payne
"... wide cab," because then they go steal it. I, that's somewhat of entrapment. I just led them to go steal that car, right? Um, but over the next year or so, we're getting more and more stuff. I buy dope from 'em. Um, like I said, carjackings. We learned of them, certain members extorting people, like the good old mafia days, you know? Extorting businesses, home invasions. Um, but again, for the listeners listening, to hear that at a bar and say, "Yeah, we robbed that house," is that enough to charge somebody? Probably not. Is an assistant United States attorney going to be like, "Yeah, that's enough"? No, we're going to have to dive in more and find out, and vet it out and get that evidence.
- NANarrator
Wow. Stressful shit.
- SPScott Payne
Slightly.
- NANarrator
Get stressed out just thinking about you doing all these things.
- SPScott Payne
Me too.
- NANarrator
So, like, how-
- SPScott Payne
(laughs)
- NANarrator
... how long is this relationship while you're building a case? Like, how, how much time are you spending with these people?
- SPScott Payne
I was pro- for that case, I was probably up there every three weeks for a good week. But then there's constant contact when I'm not there. Nextels.
- NANarrator
Text messages.
- SPScott Payne
Yeah, N- Well, Nextels were big with them at that point in time. So yeah, Chirps.
- NANarrator
Oh, the, those, the, uh-
- SPScott Payne
Chirps, yeah.
- NANarrator
... the old days, the walkie talkie one.
- SPScott Payne
Th- radio, yeah.
- NANarrator
Yeah, those were funny.
- SPScott Payne
They're like (walkie talkie sound) .
- NANarrator
People forgot about them walkie talkies.
- 56:19 – 1:14:35
Near-catastrophe: basement strip-search for wires and an adrenaline dump
- SPScott Payne
But, uh, so they say... Hey, Joe Dogs calls me. It's night at church. He says, "Hey, I need you to come to the clubhouse." I'm like, "All right, cool." And of course I'm thinking I'm type A, "I'm Scott Payne, I got this. Let's go do this, man. These are my boys, I've been doing this a year and a half." And I went into the clubhouse, and what I couldn't see, and I won't say where the recording devices were at because that's tradecraft, um, but let's just say I had a video and recording device hidden somewhere in my clothing, I had a completely audio recording device somewhere else on me, and I had a transmitter, batteries so, so the team could listen in. Um, and I went into the clubhouse, like normal, but what you can't see, if you go back and you watch the video, is if I'm facing this way, and I'm shooting the shit with you and this is the bar, and you're laughing at my jokes like always, when I would turn my head to look this way, it's still filming and I didn't see it 'cause I turned my head. They go stone face.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh.
- SPScott Payne
And I di- I missed it. I didn't see it. Um, I do know that when I got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on the door, I'm knocking on the door. I'm like, "What the f-" You know, Joe Dogs props me. He goes, "Hey, hey, we're not ready yet." And I give him, "Why the hell did you tell me to come?" I was being a smart ass. I'm like, "Pff. What's the deal? Why would you say come if you're not ready?" I didn't pick anything up. So I go in, and for the listeners, uh, that may not know, uh, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a Patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it several times. They wanted me to patch. But I, I'm with the, what I said for the task force officer. I said the same thing, I'm like, "Look, if I'm a probate and they say, 'Get your shit, Tex, we're gonna go jack this dude,' I kind of gotta go. I mean, if I don't do it, I'm either getting kicked out or beat down or whatever."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
Um, but being a high ranking member of an international theft ring that they're making money off of, it's a little different. I, we, we were getting everything we wanted. So I go in the clubhouse. I miss that. I also miss that in the back, uh, one of them, Chocolate Scott, it looks like he's dancing to the song that's playing, but he's warming up, and I miss that. And then my second closest contact, Clothesline, says, "Hey, Tex, you got a minute?" And I said, "Yeah." And we walk... I'd been in that clubhouse I don't know how many times, Joe, eight? But there's one door I'd never been in, and that's the door we went in, and it was a very tight stairwell into, you can say a basement, but that's being very, uh, that's- I'm stretching it, because I could probably touch the wall, wall on both sides and I couldn't stand up straight. So they bring me down in there, they brandish their weapons. One of them walks in behind me, he's on the steps. So they got their pistols. And, uh, my friend says, "Hey, there's a lot of shit going on. It's my job to take care of my brothers. I need you to write down your full name, your address, your phone number, all kinds of stuff. Uh, and I need you to take off all your clothes. I need to check you for a wire."
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- SPScott Payne
Here's the problem. Had I not been wired, embarrassing, yes. Naked with a bunch of men around you in a cold basement? (laughs) Yeah, that would, that would have been bad, but it would have been no threat. Um, but I was wired to the hilt. And so you think, man, do you fight? Do you try to get out? Well, there's already two or three there. I'm probably gonna do some Tommy boy shit and knock myself out on the joist as soon as I start trying to fight. And then upstairs there's what, 10 more outlaws. And that door, when I was getting into earlier and I didn't say, uh, if you're not a Patch member, you can't touch the door. That door has more than one deadbolt on it. They had welded metal hooks to the frame and put one of those like shipyard metal bars across. So from a breacher's standpoint, it's a fortified door. It might be easier to breach the wall next to it. So we're down there in the basement, and when I go to write my name down, um, I forgot my middle name. And that's because I was having an oh crap moment. I had an adrenaline dump. Same thing as cops in shootouts, uh, military in shootouts, somebody in a car wreck first time. Everything... When you're having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down. You get auditory exclusion. So everything you're hearing sounds like you're underwater is going whoosh, whoosh. It's slow, like you're talking to me like this. Time dilation. Your eyes are clicking. You look and everything's in frames. Everything's slowing down. Your hamstrings get really rubbery. You feel your heart beating. You, I mean, you feel everything pulsing. Um, and what seems like 10, 15 minutes is probably 30 seconds. And that happens. That's an adrenaline dump. So that was happening. And I forgot my middle name, and I'm going Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway. I start going through this damn Rolodex in my head and I'm going, "Scott Callaway, Scott Callaway." And I'm going, "Scott Joseph." I go, "No, damn it." That was the middle, that was my middle name for another alias, you know. And I don't realize that, uh, I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence. I woulda never-... known I said it, would've never agreed I said it, had I not seen it in the recording. But I turn, and I go, "And what else do you need?" And by the way, you've got a baseline of me now, my voice. It did not sound like this on that recording. My throat was tight. The octaves were... I mean, it, it was very higher than normal, and I'm like not even enunciating that well. I'm like, "And what else do you need?" And they're like, "What?" I go, "My name and what else?" Well, now I hear them scream up, and they go, "What else do you need for that website?" So now I know, oh, they're going to Google me. Back then there was whosearatt.com, things like that. (clears throat) So I'm gathering that evidence or intelligence, and then I remember my middle name was, uh, my initials were S-A-C because I'm an idiot, and I thought it was funny because S-U... S-A-C is the head of an FBI division, and I knew I was never going to be one, so. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
So I made my initials S-A-C. So I remember my name's Scott Andrew Callaway, and then I write that down. Well, now I take off all my clothes. I take off my, my, my outer clothing, all my shirts. I take my boots off, and I, I basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles. Um, so pretty much naked from ankle... I mean, I'm definitely naked from ankles up. And he starts searching me, and I'm, again, I'm having an oh shit moment, and he's, he's ta... he's trying to talk to me, and, like, we've known each other for a year and a half. So I'm not saying it out loud, but if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is, "Tell me I'm okay. Is this okay?" Well, Clothesline, because we were tight, hits me back with the face, looked just like, "Everything's all right. This is just procedure." However, he didn't know that I'm an undercover agent and I'm wired. So that adds a whole nother issue. So he searches me. I think we're done. Um, he even, one point, he even tells me, he says, uh, "Trust me. If somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the fucking mouth." And I said, and those are his words, and I, I immediately said, "Well, I'm not happy." I'll tell you what I did do. I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor. And I've had people ask me, "What does that mean?" And I go, "Well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor, and they're telling you to walk on it..."
- JRJoe Rogan
They're going to cut you open.
- SPScott Payne
Yeah. You're just, just to, just to clean up the blood.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- SPScott Payne
I didn't see that. I saw a rope. I saw pistols, and I knew I didn't have a chance in hell of getting out of there in one piece. So he, he finishes, and he's, uh, he's, he's saying something. He goes, he goes, "Wouldn't you be suspect if somebody comes to ta... your town and starts doing all this shit with you?" I said, "Yeah, if you came to me." I didn't come to you guys. Y'all called me over. Nobody has to do this shit. (laughs) I'm like, "What are we..." You know? Nobody has to do anything, right? And I think we're done. So I pull my pants back up, and I think we're done. And he grabs a piece of clothing of mine, and he starts kneading it and going through it. Now, this is 2005 to 2007-ish, so techni- technology today is way better than it was then, just like technology is. But, uh, let's just say this. Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would've felt something. And he says, as a joke, when he starts, he goes, "Hey, uh, I'm not going to find anything in here I don't want to, like some naked pictures of my old lady." And he laughs, and I... uh, his laugh is like... (laughs) And my laugh is like... (laughs) You know?
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
And then I'm watching him go down this piece of clothing, and he's doing this, and he's kneading it. And, and I... You can hear, I... Again, I don't know how I do it, but on the recording, you can hear me go, (sighs) an audible sigh, because I'm like watching it, and I'm going, "What the f- What am I gonna do?" So here's how it ends. He doesn't find it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Wow.
- SPScott Payne
Almost. I mean, like, very, very close. Um, and by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up, and now I've got another adrenaline dump. And now I've come in, I'm like, "Son of a bitch," (laughs) in those peaks and valleys. And, uh, everybody that I've taught this to or spoke about it to always ask. They're like, "Man, what would you have said?" And I'll tell you. I had two responses. Because I'm a jovial idiot, my first response, if he would have said, "What is this?" I would've probably said, "I don't know, some naked pictures of your old lady," to try to buy myself some time, maybe make him quit searching. The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember it like it was yesterday, I would have said, "The gig is up. I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here, and we can see each other in court, or all hell's gonna break loose." Here's the issue, as I get a swig. (drinks) That would've been a bluff on my part because as far as I knew, every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me, for whatever reasons, because somebody's going to say it's tradecraft. But again, this is 2005 to 2008, but they could never really hear me in that clubhouse. And I make it out. Uh, I end up going out with Scott Town and Joe Dogs that night. But what happens is I am legitimately pissed off because now my adrenaline's coming back down, and I'm, I'm taking it personal. I shouldn't. I'm undercover as an FBI agent. I'm not really Scott Callaway. I mean, I'm kind of Scott Callaway.
- JRJoe Rogan
But you're so deep in the role.
- SPScott Payne
Well, and it's really me, kind of. I mean, that's the whole thing. I never was far off of who I really am in life.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
A pedophile? Yeah. I'm, I'm... You hire me to kill somebody? No, I'm not going to ingratiate with you. I'm a stone-cold killer. But I'm hanging with you for two years or a year and a half or whatever? Yeah, the, I'm s- the jokes are kind of the same.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- SPScott Payne
So, so I'm pissed, and I'm, at- to... at one point, I'm telling Joe Dogs, I'm like, "You know what, man?F all you sons of b..." I said, "Y'all show up tomorrow," I said, "I'm stripping all y'all in the damn parking lot." You know, I was just blow... uh, and they were nice. They let me vent my stuff. Well, that night, when I went to turn in my equipment, uh, at an undisclosed location, probably 3:00, 4:00, or 5:00 in the morning, to the case team, um, what I found out was this.... uh, the shift started with Sergeant Higginbottom, everybody called him Higgy, uh, and Joe, the detectives, uh, the detective. Uh, these guys are awesome, phenomenal law enforcement officers. Uh, although I think their love language is yelling. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
Maybe that's my Southern thing mixing with the Northeast thing. But, uh, uh, they told me, they said, "Scott, we heard you in there." And I'm like, "What?" When I had that first interaction with Joe Dogs, they are very street smart, they're very good investigators, and they have been working this group forever. Something that happened in that first interaction made their Spidey senses, or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer, uh, say, "Something's not right." They had pulled close enough, they heard everything. They put on their vests, they suited up and because they'd been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh my God.
- SPScott Payne
Just to smash that, you know. Uh, sometimes I'm teaching this, I'll joke about it and say, "It probably would've killed me because I was in the basement, you know."
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- SPScott Payne
(laughs) Reverse, back up.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
Episode duration: 2:46:50
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode ZQHIDX1lC3k
