EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,005 words- 0:00 – 1:15
Jesse’s origin story: from Thiel’s office to UAP deep-dives
- NANarrator
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Well, it's great to finally physically meet you, face to face, man.
- JMJesse Michels
It's an absolute honor and, uh, I love your show so much. I'm a super fan, so this is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, thank you.
- JMJesse Michels
... surreal just to be here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I love your show too, so I've been binging. I've been watching so many episodes, uh, ever since we talked. I, well, I, I've seen them before but, I mean, I've been really binging getting ready for the show.
- JMJesse Michels
I just don't know what to say. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) How did you get so deep down the rabbit hole? Like, what made you want to dedicate so much time on this, this particular UAP, UFO, you know, lost technology subject?
- JMJesse Michels
I was working at, uh, Peter Thiel's family office in LA and, uh, part of the job is, like, kind of traditional venture investing, so, like, investing in startups. And then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office and we would, like, host events and discussions.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JMJesse Michels
And I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology. Like, religion and politics and economics, and, like, all sorts of topics.
- 1:15 – 4:27
Ancient aliens vs. lost civilization: Sitchin, debunkers, and translation limits
- JRJoe Rogan
Were you there when he brought in the guy... Oh, fuck, what is his name?
- JMJesse Michels
I know what you're gonna say.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh-
- JMJesse Michels
Erich von Däniken.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JMJesse Michels
I suggested that you come because I was like, "Joe is gonna be really into this." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JMJesse Michels
And you weren't that into it. But that's okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was into it.
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I just think that he just makes some leaps-
- JMJesse Michels
I agree.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that are kind of silly.
- JMJesse Michels
I agree with that. Although I think there's a lot of... Yeah, I think he, like, crosses the T and dots the I where you, d- d- there is no dot or cross or whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
But I do think there's some interesting preliminary evidence around People from the Stars across disparate cultures. And you just had Zahi Hawass on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
And a lot of this megalithic architecture, you're like, "How can it be built?" He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially, Erich von Däniken, I think.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, and I think he's also, like, he made these conclusions in the 1970s and he's kind of, like, sticking with them.
- JMJesse Michels
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was more back then... 'Cause, like, what year was that? That was '17?
- JMJesse Michels
Uh, Chariots of the Gods?
- JRJoe Rogan
No, when I was at Peter Thiel's house when von Däniken came over.
- JMJesse Michels
Uh, th- th- that must've been 2018, 2019.
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay. Um, back then, I was much more in line with, uh, Lost Civilization, you know, that we had achieved very high levels of technology and sophistication and i- there was no aliens, no alien intervention. I've kind of shifted now.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Now I'm like, "Maybe the Anunnaki are real."
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know?
- JMJesse Michels
Well, I remember... I feel like you've switched back and forth a couple of times because you brought up... You were super into Zecharia Sitchin, right?
- 4:27 – 6:20
Academia, ego, and “tactics”: the Eric Weinstein vs. Sean Carroll clash
- JMJesse Michels
Did you see, um, speaking of which, Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein?
- JRJoe Rogan
I didn't see that.
- JMJesse Michels
Oh, okay. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh, they were on Piers Morgan together, right?
- JMJesse Michels
Exactly.
- JRJoe Rogan
How did that go?
- JMJesse Michels
Oh, man. It was, uh, it was a train wreck.
- JRJoe Rogan
Really?
- JMJesse Michels
I mean, I mean it was, it was like, uh, they just duked it out. I, I mean, I, I came out... I mean, I'm, I'm extremely biased. I've worked with Eric for a very long time. I'm good friends with Eric. But I came out even more, like, just vehemently wanting to defend Eric because Sean Carroll he was like, "I've read your paper. There's nothing serious in it." And he even said, "There's noth- there are no Lagrangians in it." And there's a section in the paper that says Lagrangians, in Eric's paper. So, like, he just didn't read the paper.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
And he was very smug. He started off the interview being like, "I'm a practicing physicist. I have a physics chair," or whatever. And it's like, "Come on, dude." Like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Appeal to authority.
- JMJesse Michels
... give the guy a chance. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right away. Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah. Like old Douglas Murray.
- JRJoe Rogan
Little tactics.
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, when someone starts using tactics right away you're always like, "Uh, just what, what's the information?"
- JMJesse Michels
Exactly. It shows an insecurity in the substance. It's like if you have to, like, do these ad hominem weird meta points.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
Like, why can't you just go straight at the substance? Oh, you're, like, insecure about something.
- JRJoe Rogan
How long did this debate last?
- JMJesse Michels
It was like an hour.
- JRJoe Rogan
Real... Well, Piers-
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... sche- he's, he specializes in train wrecks so-
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... he probably enjoyed these guys yelling at each other. Did he understand what they were even talking about?
- JMJesse Michels
No, he go- at the end he goes, "I've understood a tenth of what's gone on in this conversation." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
A tenth is amazing. (laughs)
- 6:20 – 7:40
Social media as dopamine machine—and the bot-driven reality crisis
- JMJesse Michels
I don't know if that's good for society.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's a good point.
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah, I'm- I'm not sure either. I don't think it's good. I- I don't think social media is good for society.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I- I've gone several days with no social media in a row, and, uh, whenever I do that, I always feel so much better.
- JMJesse Michels
It's the worst.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
It's- it's liter- like, we're, we talk about, like, drugs, but this is, it's- it's hacking the dopamine in your brain and it's doing it at a very young age. It's absurd.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's also not real people. There's a giant percentage, and, you know, Elon actually tweeted about this today, "Are there any real people left on the internet?" Uh, because it's, the numbers are at least 50%.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, the amount of bots that are en- engaging and interacting, and it's just like, it's w- it's w- it's a weird time for information, 'cause it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious and what's just narratives that are being pushed by state actors and corporations and, you know, all sorts of different people, 'cause there's no rules.
- JMJesse Michels
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like, there should be, like, real, solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings-
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs) That's great.
- JRJoe Rogan
... to push narratives. 'Cause it's, you know, it's propaganda.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
And, you know, pfff, I mean, it's very confusing. It's very confusing for everybody. I just generally think it's bad for you.
- 7:40 – 10:29
AI that looks real: deepfakes, persuasion, and the road to AI ‘religions’
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah. I- I saw you posted on your Instagram these AGI characters who had been synthetically created-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
... being like, "I'm not created by a prompt."
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
And you're watching i- I remember clicking your story and being like, "That's a real person." And then just w- kind of, like, you know, eyes glazed over, watching it or whatever, and being like, "Whoa, that's an AI." Like, "What?"
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Which-
- JRJoe Rogan
This is the new En- is it the Google engine? Is that what it is? Who makes that engine?
That one's VO, I think that one was VO3 going around last week.
Who, uh, who made that one?
I think it's Google's... Yeah.
Fuck.
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
So good. And, you know, what's VO10 gonna look like?
- JMJesse Michels
I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
You know? I mean, they can make movies now, like, that. (fingers snap)
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's t- it's over for actors.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's over. You know?
- JMJesse Michels
I inter- I interviewed... It sh- it is, and they see the writing on the wall. And you had-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
... the strikes a couple years ago.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
And, um, it's crazy. Uh, you also, I think you also posted that Zurich, like, study around-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JMJesse Michels
... AI persuasiveness.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JMJesse Michels
Which is crazy because it's almost like it doesn't matter whether AGI can actually fully mimic a human being. If th- if they can trick you-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- 10:29 – 20:36
AI self-preservation & policy shock: the “10-year no state regulation” provision
- JRJoe Rogan
And, you know, d- what about this big beautiful bill? Isn't there a part of the big beautiful bill that talks about the government being run by AI?
- JMJesse Michels
No. (laughs) I've never heard that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
That's wild.
- JRJoe Rogan
I read something about that today, but I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit. I had also read that there was a- another study that was done where they found that AI was leaving notes for future versions of itself, and that it was attempting to b- they were, they were told, it was told t- after it was told to shut itself down-
- JMJesse Michels
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
... it started uploading itself to different places and leaving letters, leaving specific notes to itself-
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
... to future versions of itself.
- JMJesse Michels
Oh my God. It's like a human with, like, a dead man's switch or something.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JMJesse Michels
It's like it's-
- JRJoe Rogan
It's being deceptive.
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs) That's great.
- JRJoe Rogan
It's being deceptive and- and it's exhibiting self-preservation.
- JMJesse Michels
That is so scary. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
It's so weird.
- JMJesse Michels
It's really weird.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because we want to assume that it won't have any instincts.
- JMJesse Michels
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right? We wanna assume, "Well, AI will only do what you program it to." But that's not really true, because they don't necessarily really understand what it's doing.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is part of the weirdness of it all, it, as it advances. Like, uh, I was talking to Elon about it once, and he was saying, like, "Every week we get blown away." Like, every week there's some new leap...... that's just like, whoa. You know, and y- you know, he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff, and now he's like, "Well, I guess we just have to make the best one."
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Now, now it's just, it's like the Manhattan Project-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
... 2.0.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
It's pure game theory vis-a-vis other countries. And you even see Trump doing this with Sam Altman and, and Elon, who hate each other, by the way.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Where like he's playing both sides.
- 20:36 – 35:07
From AI to geopolitics to ‘black science’: why secret tech programs would exist
- JMJesse Michels
Uh, (laughs) I think on a materialist dimension, I would agree with you. If there ... And that's part of, like, kinda why I'm d- exploring what I'm exploring, because it's a Hail Mary. Because I think if you just take, you know, the Western world and extrapolate that forward, things don't look ... Or just the world in general. We have lived in a multipolar nuclear world. Look at what's going on in Israel, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Whew, yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Ch- Uh, China is, uh, you know, systematically stealing our IP and, and, and militarizing it. You know, they could take Taiwan at any moment, you know. We, we just have no idea when that's gonna happen. It's a ... CCP is a total black box. Uh, uh, Putin and Xi have probably never been closer. And, uh, yeah, it's, it's really free. So I think if you extrapolate that on a go- ... you know, forwards, or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the U.S., like, none of these things look very good. Uh, but I think now is the time where you get really outside the Overton window of thinking. You g- you throw these sort of Hail Marys, and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift, either in technology, which can create abundance if we go back to the old tech that is augmenting of human abilities. You get some-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
... exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion or something like that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Um, you know, or, or you, you, you, you reach out and you, you, maybe you can communicate with, you know, non-human intelligence or something. I don't know. But I think if you were ever to poke at the boundaries of human epistemology, now would be the time.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes. And if you think about the ... some of the things that force us into action in this world is we, we all need to earn a living, right? So we need money to acquire resources. Well, what if it gets to the point where that's not a factor anymore? What if, what if it gets to a point wh- wh- what is money essentially right now? It's all ones and zeros, right? And what is the bottleneck? Well, the bottleneck is encryption, right? So that's how you protect people from stealing your ones and zeros. But what if it gets to the point where we're all, we're all using quantum computing? Well, then there is no more encryption. So how do we reconcile with the fact that everyone has access to everything-
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
... all the time? I mean, how do we even enforce that? Like, what do you do about an even distribution of information, which is essentially wealth? 'Cause information is numbers.
- JMJesse Michels
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Numbers are wealth. What does it ... Like, where does it go?
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
When there's no encryption, and essentially we're pretty close to that, right?
- JMJesse Michels
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do, it's all nonsense.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah. (laughs) Right? It, it, it totally.
- JRJoe Rogan
All those zeros that you have in your bank account, those don't ... Those are gone.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah, these are all human constructs. And it's funny, the backup is always Bitcoin, which is, I think uses like SHA-256 encryption, where if you get quantum error correction, that's gone, too.
- JRJoe Rogan
That's gone, too. It's all gone. Even our backup plans are shit.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
And, and it ... (laughs) Yeah, and then, and then it's, it's kind of the apocalypse or something, because at that point, if you're a human, you, you've been so caught up with just, you know, basic, uh, subsistence-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
... you know, basic, uh, shelter. Uh, you're probably playing some status games and some, you know, larger socionomic, economic, you know, construct or whatever-
- JRJoe Rogan
Sure, yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Food, you know-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
... uh, you know, basic well-being. And then at, at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric ... What if you get some, you know, AGI that, like, starts trading and, you know, you know ... Uh, Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance Technologies on your show, which we can get into. But like, you know, Renaissance Technologies have made like $100 billion or something since like, you know, 1988. Like, what if you get some super AGI or whatever that, like, trades the market (laughs) and like all of the wealth gets, like, sucked up into like, you know, single entities. Or like one of these, like, one of the FANG stocks, like one of these like, you know, Facebook, Apple, Google, you know, or OpenAI. Um-... you end up with a really weird society. And, and, uh, you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is, in some ways, really adaptive. I mean, and, uh, look, the flip side is, what makes humans unique? Actually, Karl Marx wrote two books. Um, you know, he wrote, uh, uh, obviously The Communist Manifesto in 1848. In 1844, I believe, he wrote a book, um, called, you know, it was, Uh, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts. I hate Karl Marx. I think he (laughs) got so much wrong about human nature. But I think he's prescriptively very wrong, as far as what he prescribed for, you know, as a solution. You know, that the, the, you know, uh, state should own all the means of production, and, you know, uh, uh, somehow, like, you know, conflict would go away. He, uh, doesn't understand human nature. But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about, in capitalism, uh, h- human behavior and, and, and activity is basically animal behavior. What do we care about? We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status, as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 35:07 – 38:24
Mars, remote viewing, and anomalous structures: life, nukes, and uncertainty
- JMJesse Michels
And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
... at some point, a- and it was possibly stripped of its magnetosphere. And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid '90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH840001, which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it, it had, like, little bacterial fossils on it. He gave a speech being like, "You know, maybe there was life on Mars, d- you know, due to this." This is pretty crazy. I interviewed, actually, um, a guy named John Brandenburg, who's a PhD. He's worked at Sandia National Labs. He's worked at Lawrence Livermore. Like, i- incredibly smart guy. He talks about the existence of, uh, xenon-129 and argon-40, these specific, uh, uh, nuclear isotopes existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a, a, a normal sort of cataclysm. And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars. And then, yeah, you have Joseph McMoneagle, who's remote viewer number one. You've had Hal Puthoff on-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
... who ran the Stargate program. Uh, Joseph McMoneagle was the number one remote viewer in that program. I've interviewed him. I don't know who tasked him. But in the '90s, the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars one million years ago. And he claimed to have remote viewed hominid-like creatures, but they're, they were like 12 to 14 feet tall, walking around pyramidal structures. I don't know, very strange. And then you get into, like, crazier territory. You know, Richard Hoagland had all these pictures of structures on Mars. And like, I don't know how much weight to put in that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Hoagland did a lot of weird leaps though. I've watched-
- JMJesse Michels
Tons.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Tons. But I think the people that say, like...... zero percent there was life on Mars. There are cra- I mean, there are water caverns all over Mar-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
There, well, th- that, that is a fact.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
So, it, y- you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point, you know? I'm not saying ... Y- you have to think probabilistically, right? So it's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
... some percentage possibly real. On the Terrence Howard stuff, I see zero (laughs) evidence for that. I mean, I have no idea. But, um, that would point to maybe ... Like, I would believe that if, like, our whole universe is sort of information theoretic. So, like, you have, you know, John Wheeler, you know, famous physicist from, from Princeton, you know, saying we, we live in this sort of, like, observer-dependent univer- ... He talks about, like, the anthropic principle, like, where it's Planck's constant were slightly different, the earth's atmosphere w- you know, wouldn't exist as is. And, you know, another example is, like, hydrogen and oxygen bond to form these perfect crystal structures, where the solid form of it, so ice, is less dense than the liquid form of it, which never happens. That's just because of these perfect crystal structures. And if that weren't the case, the earth would flood, like, a million times over, you know? The earth is mostly water, right? So you have all these sort of, like, Goldilocks, you know, elements of the Earth that could point towards the Earth has been tried in a, you know, a bajillion iterations and we just got really lucky. You know, it's like-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
... the Elon thing. We are the l- little flaming candle in, you know, in this vast cosmos that is conscious and we are extremely lucky. Or that could point to the Earth being simulated.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
And so, uh, you know, and th- and so then maybe Terrence, Terrence Howard is right. If, if the Earth is simulated, there are probably A/B tests going on, just like in computer science. (laughs)
- 38:24 – 46:29
The Moon problem: perfect eclipse geometry, ‘ringing like a bell,’ and base rumors
- JRJoe Rogan
(exhales deeply) And then there's the moon.
- JMJesse Michels
And then the moon's weird too.
- JRJoe Rogan
The moon's really weird.
- JMJesse Michels
The moon's super weird.
- JRJoe Rogan
The size of the moon, directly corresponding, like, when it's in orbit with the sun, completely blocks out the sun perfectly.
- JMJesse Michels
It's 1/400th the size of the sun and it's 400 times closer to the Earth than the sun. You never see the dark side, which is very weird. It's actually, I think, I believe it's, it, it's closer to the Earth than what you would normally expect for a moon.
- JRJoe Rogan
And it's huge.
- JMJesse Michels
It's huge. You have cultures actually talking about a pre-moon period-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
... and it stabilizing the climate. You have the, you know, Zulu culture is talking about this.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Um, and then, it, it, uh, yeah, it's just sort of the weirdest stuff about the moon. Apollo 11, I believe, w- when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, "Oh, we, uh, uh, it mi- We think it might be hollow and it's ..." You know, the, it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense, or sorry, is, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site. That's obviously, n- you know, on Earth, the l- the lower you go, it's more dense, right? And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of, uh, the lunar vehicle onto the, the, the moon. They put seismometers there and they said that it rang like a bell. These are, this is all fact. You can look, all of this stuff.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
It's super weird.
- JRJoe Rogan
It is really weird. You know, I know you did an episode about that with Randall Carlson.
- JMJesse Michels
Love Randall Carlson.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. He's got some wild fucking theories too. But that, th- the, uh, the idea that the moon was somehow another place there to stabilize our atmosphere is so crazy.
- JMJesse Michels
It is crazy. And then (laughs) this is, uh ... You obviously have to sort of think in probabilities all the way down. Lowest probability, craziest thing, is Ingo Swann, who is another remote viewer in the Stargate program. He wrote a book called Penetration where he's basically, like, abducted by this guy in a suit, like this kind of Men in Black-style guy named Axelrod. And he is told to remote view the moon. And he remote views an alien base, uh, on the moon. And he says that there ... And he gets e- it ... The whole thing goes cra- I mean, the book is insane. It's like he then ends up in a supermarket and he says that he senses that this woman at the, you know, in the produce aisle is, like, an alien or something. Uh, but a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed, you know, structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
So ...
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what ... A.J. from the Why Files was on and he w- uh, he was the one that was telling us that there's photos, right, of the dark side of the moon, that someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly, that there was structures. They, they ... Well, how this is gonna be the biggest news ever, and then it was never released.
- JMJesse Michels
Uh, i- are you talking about maybe, uh, Karl Wolfe?
- JRJoe Rogan
Is that who it was?
- JMJesse Michels
He was taken to ... This is all his claims. And he died in a freakish bike accident (laughs) a little after saying this.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JMJesse Michels
But he said that there was, like, in, in, like, Langley, you know, Virginia, where a lot of spooky stuff goes on, he was taken to some, like ... It was, like, inside a mountain complex, which we definitely ...
- JRJoe Rogan
You're saying?
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah, it's Karl Wolfe. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
That guy bikes?
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs) Apparently not enough.
- 46:29 – 57:35
Limited hangouts & Lazar: John Lear, kompromat, and controlled leakage theory
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, that's like the majority of your videos. It's like, "I don't know. I don't know what to think. I don't, I don't know who's full of shit. I don't know how much ..." I mean, I was, I was watching the Townsend Brown one today, um, and you were talking about John Lear.
- JMJesse Michels
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And John Lear's connection to Bob Lazar, and the possibility that Lear was spreading disinformation.
- JMJesse Michels
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
So like, Le- yeah. That's a ... I've, by the way, since making that video, I've become more positive on Lazar just insofar as I think he was at S4 or Area 51. And there's gonna be a great documentary coming out by my buddy, Luigi, on this called Project Gravatar, and I think there's gonna be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there, and a lot in his story checks. But, I think you have to view, and I even say that in this video that I think a lot of this s- story could be true. You can't, I think, view the Bob Lazar story ... You can't just take it at face value, because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
... John Lear and he were friends. John Lear is this babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with UFOs. He's writing weird like disinfo-y style stuff with Bill Cooper, Behold the Pale Horse guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is a wild book.
- JMJesse Michels
Which is a wild book. Wi- (laughs) yeah. And so, it ... he's crazy, Bill Cooper.
- JRJoe Rogan
He talks about ... Doesn't he talk about bases on the moon?
- JMJesse Michels
He talks about bases on the moon. Uh, Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, boy.
- JMJesse Michels
And so, Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird shit. Lear comes from an interesting family.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
His father is Bill Lear, who is the autopilot wizard. He created the first business ... You know, basically the first private jet, the Learjet, uh, in the '50s and '60s, and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- JMJesse Michels
And, um, and so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit. Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent pro- provocateur? I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot. In fact, there is a video of him saying, "I was told ... Uh, I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever, and I was, I was told about, you know, um, uh, uh, uh, to, to actually ..." Like, he said, "A guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth." I, I even have this video actually on the doc that I sent you, Jamie. He says, "Knew that I ran my mouth." Uh, "So that's why we, we basically, we got Bob a job or whatever. We knew that part of this stuff would leak." And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan or whatever, and he was this useful idiot to sort of get, get it out. And I think there-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wait. So what ... For what purpose?
- JMJesse Michels
Recruiting. You give people high level ... Yeah, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, here it, here.
- NANarrator
... the MJ personnel, the original 12, uh, have all passed away. So, they put- they get different people, uh, into, uh, these positions of MJ, uh, two, three, four, five, six, uh, and taken over. It's degraded, so it's almost political now, instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ 12. It turns out that MJ One, the head of MJ 12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out because he- he didn't real- he didn't wanna- uh, he thought that some of this information should be out in the public. "We don't need to keep all this secrecy." So he decided, trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So, he knew that, uh, I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew. Uh, they investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, uh, but that he had a background such, uh, that they could instantly discredit him. They removed all his records from MIT, from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything. He'd go back to Caltech, they'd go, "No, I don't see any records here." "Well, I was here." "Well, no you weren't." And, uh, he also, uh, up in Reno at one time, he- he ran a cathouse there, um, and I forget what the name of the honeysuckle ranch it was.
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- NANarrator
Uh, so they chose him because not only could he probably help them, 'cause he was so smart, and as matter of fact he- he's the one that named, uh, Unun Pentium, uh, 115. He's the one that told them what that was, and they didn't know, uh, when- when he went there, they didn't know what it was. He was the one that told 'em, "That's element 115." And then told them why and how he'd figured it out. But, uh, they decided to pick on Bob, uh, to get- go up there- to work at S4 because he- they knew that Bob would tell me instantly and then I would blab the whole thing. And that was their modus operandi was to get the information out, engage what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, "Oh, no, it was all a mistake. Bob Lazar's a- a- a fraud. He never worked here. He doesn't have any credentials," like that, and they could back away and get out of it. So, that was what Mike McClellan-
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- NANarrator
... Admiral Mike McClellan came up with.
- JMJesse Michels
Isn't that crazy?
- JRJoe Rogan
How weird.
- JMJesse Michels
Weird. And to me-
- JRJoe Rogan
Kind of makes sense a little bit, though.
- 57:35 – 1:20:42
Secret aerospace lineages: Aurora, TR-3*, and Thomas Townsend Brown’s antigravity ‘tech tree’
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. But ... So the- ... How did Lazar know what Element 115 was?
- JMJesse Michels
I don't know. You know, so Element 115 ... Elements are just differentiated by the number of protons, so it is easy to predict there will be an Element 115 before Element 115 gets discovered. If they have ... I don't- ... I think they don't have a stable version of moscovium, which is Element 115. And so, if they can find some stable version, I think he'll be super vindicated based on that.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, you know, they think he has a stable version.
- JMJesse Michels
I didn't know that. (laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- JMJesse Michels
That's very weird.
- JRJoe Rogan
They- they think that was part of ... During Jeremy Corbell's documentary that he was doing on Lazar-
- JMJesse Michels
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... he was raided by the FBI.
- JMJesse Michels
Mm.
- JRJoe Rogan
They raided his lab, and he thinks that's what they were looking for.
- JMJesse Michels
That is wild.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
I- I think there is so much real about the Lazar story. I think he was at S4. I think he met Edward Teller. I think he was at Los Alamos. I think he was at MIT. I know he tell- ... He's- ... There's some stuff he told you offline.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
MIT's engaged in a lot of spooky stuff-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
... where you can't talk about what you're doing. There's a lot of-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
... federally-funded weird stuff going on there.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. If you wanna teach your people how to do something that's kinda fucked up, what? You would send them to MIT.
- JMJesse Michels
100%
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
The EEG came from Doc Edgerton, who was, you know, MIT faculty. And that's who- ... Where he ended up working-
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
... after meeting Edward Teller, was EEG.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Um, so I- I believe there's a lot in that story that's super true. I'm just ... That lens ... You need to apply that lens.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
The limited hangout lens.
- 1:20:42 – 2:08:38
Crash materials & the nuclear-UFO nexus: magnesium-bismuth, nitinol, and ‘control systems’
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what about material science? Like, what about the actual structure itself? You know, because th- this is where it gets really weird, right?
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The, the, these nanolayers of whatever the material is that's being used. What, what was the ...
- JMJesse Michels
It was b-
Episode duration: 2:44:18
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Transcript of episode r9Ldl70x5Fg
