Joe Rogan Experience #2331 - Jesse Michels

1. 0:00 – 1:15

   Meeting Jesse Michels + how he fell into UAP/“lost tech” research

   1. NANarrator0:00

      (drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.

   2. JRJoe Rogan0:06

      Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Well, it's great to finally physically meet you, face to face, man.

   3. JMJesse Michels0:16

      It's an absolute honor and, uh, I love your show so much. I'm a super fan, so this is-

   4. JRJoe Rogan0:21

      Well, thank you.

   5. JMJesse Michels0:21

      ... surreal just to be here.

   6. JRJoe Rogan0:22

      Well, I love your show too, so I've been binging. I've been watching so many episodes, uh, ever since we talked. I, well, I, I've seen them before but, I mean, I've been really binging getting ready for the show.

   7. JMJesse Michels0:32

      I just don't know what to say. (laughs)

   8. JRJoe Rogan0:35

      (laughs) How did you get so deep down the rabbit hole? Like, what made you want to dedicate so much time on this, this particular UAP, UFO, you know, lost technology subject?

   9. JMJesse Michels0:48

      I was working at, uh, Peter Thiel's family office in LA and, uh, part of the job is, like, kind of traditional venture investing, so, like, investing in startups. And then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office and we would, like, host events and discussions.

   10. JRJoe Rogan1:03

       Mm.

   11. JMJesse Michels1:04

       And I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology. Like, religion and politics and economics, and, like, all sorts of topics.

2. 1:15 – 2:39

   Ancient aliens vs. lost civilization: von Däniken, megaliths, and shifting beliefs

   1. JRJoe Rogan1:15

      Were you there when he brought in the guy... Oh, fuck, what is his name?

   2. JMJesse Michels1:20

      I know what you're gonna say.

   3. JRJoe Rogan1:20

      Uh-

   4. JMJesse Michels1:20

      Erich von Däniken.

   5. JRJoe Rogan1:21

      Yes.

   6. JMJesse Michels1:22

      I suggested that you come because I was like, "Joe is gonna be really into this." (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan1:25

      (laughs)

   8. JMJesse Michels1:26

      And you weren't that into it. But that's okay.

   9. JRJoe Rogan1:28

      I was into it.

   10. JMJesse Michels1:29

       (laughs)

   11. JRJoe Rogan1:29

       I just think that he just makes some leaps-

   12. JMJesse Michels1:32

       I agree.

   13. JRJoe Rogan1:32

       ... that are kind of silly.

   14. JMJesse Michels1:34

       I agree with that. Although I think there's a lot of... Yeah, I think he, like, crosses the T and dots the I where you, d- d- there is no dot or cross or whatever.

   15. JRJoe Rogan1:44

       Right.

   16. JMJesse Michels1:45

       But I do think there's some interesting preliminary evidence around People from the Stars across disparate cultures. And you just had Zahi Hawass on.

   17. JRJoe Rogan1:52

       Yeah.

   18. JMJesse Michels1:52

       And a lot of this megalithic architecture, you're like, "How can it be built?" He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially, Erich von Däniken, I think.

   19. JRJoe Rogan1:59

       Yes, and I think he's also, like, he made these conclusions in the 1970s and he's kind of, like, sticking with them.

   20. JMJesse Michels2:06

       Yep.

   21. JRJoe Rogan2:07

       I was more back then... 'Cause, like, what year was that? That was '17?

   22. JMJesse Michels2:12

       Uh, Chariots of the Gods?

   23. JRJoe Rogan2:13

       No, when I was at Peter Thiel's house when von Däniken came over.

   24. JMJesse Michels2:16

       Uh, th- th- that must've been 2018, 2019.

   25. JRJoe Rogan2:19

       Okay. Um, back then, I was much more in line with, uh, Lost Civilization, you know, that we had achieved very high levels of technology and sophistication and i- there was no aliens, no alien intervention. I've kind of shifted now.

   26. JMJesse Michels2:35

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   27. JRJoe Rogan2:36

       Now I'm like, "Maybe the Anunnaki are real."

   28. JMJesse Michels2:38

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   29. JRJoe Rogan2:38

       You know?

3. 2:39 – 4:27

   Sitchin, Nibiru, and the limits of debunking ancient-language claims

   1. JMJesse Michels2:39

      Well, I remember... I feel like you've switched back and forth a couple of times because you brought up... You were super into Zecharia Sitchin, right?

   2. JRJoe Rogan2:45

      Yes.

   3. JMJesse Michels2:45

      And then you brought up Zecharia Sitchin in that meeting and you were like, "But there's this site, Sitchin is Wrong-"

   4. JRJoe Rogan2:51

      Yes.

   5. JMJesse Michels2:51

      ... written by a guy named Michael Heiser."

   6. JRJoe Rogan2:53

      Right.

   7. JMJesse Michels2:53

      And then you, like, cited all the Sitchin is Wrong stuff or whatever.

   8. JRJoe Rogan2:56

      Yeah.

   9. JMJesse Michels2:57

      So maybe you've comes full circle. I don't know. (laughs)

   10. JRJoe Rogan2:58

       Well, even the Sitchin is Wrong stuff, it's like the problem with debunkers is when you're dealing with... When you're dealing with in- information that's sort of way outside your wheelhouse, especially translation of ancient languages... You know, like I had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to me-

   11. JMJesse Michels3:16

       Awesome.

   12. JRJoe Rogan3:16

       He's great. But he was explaining to me that he can't even read ancient Sumerian. Like, he-

   13. JMJesse Michels3:23

       Totally.

   14. JRJoe Rogan3:23

       And he's like, "I don't think Sitchin really could read it."

   15. JMJesse Michels3:27

       Okay.

   16. JRJoe Rogan3:28

       He, he's like, "I'm very skeptical-"

   17. JMJesse Michels3:30

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan3:30

       "... that he actually could read it."

   19. JMJesse Michels3:31

       I don't th-

   20. JRJoe Rogan3:32

       And he's explaining why.

   21. JMJesse Michels3:33

       Aren't they using, like, ML? Like, they're using AI, right?

   22. JRJoe Rogan3:36

       Now, I think.

   23. JMJesse Michels3:36

       To tr- now.

   24. JRJoe Rogan3:37

       Yeah.

   25. JMJesse Michels3:37

       To translate Sumerian, so it's definitely not that... But that goes... I mean, the, the, the, the kind of burden of proof is on Sitchin in this case, right?

   26. JRJoe Rogan3:46

       Yeah.

   27. JMJesse Michels3:46

       But it sort of goes against, like, you know, the other s- debunkers too. Like, it's like nobody knows. And I, I don't-

   28. JRJoe Rogan3:52

       Right.

   29. JMJesse Michels3:52

       ... I don't know if there's anything to the Sitchin stuff. The Sitchin stuff is crazy. It's like... We can rehash it for the audience. There's a planet, Nibiru, right?

   30. JRJoe Rogan3:59

       Mm-hmm.
4. 4:27 – 6:24

   Academic gatekeeping & debate culture: Sean Carroll vs. Eric Weinstein

   1. JMJesse Michels4:27

      Did you see, um, speaking of which, Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein?

   2. JRJoe Rogan4:31

      I didn't see that.

   3. JMJesse Michels4:32

      Oh, okay. (laughs)

   4. JRJoe Rogan4:33

      Uh, they were on Piers Morgan together, right?

   5. JMJesse Michels4:34

      Exactly.

   6. JRJoe Rogan4:35

      How did that go?

   7. JMJesse Michels4:36

      Oh, man. It was, uh, it was a train wreck.

   8. JRJoe Rogan4:39

      Really?

   9. JMJesse Michels4:39

      I mean, I mean it was, it was like, uh, they just duked it out. I, I mean, I, I came out... I mean, I'm, I'm extremely biased. I've worked with Eric for a very long time. I'm good friends with Eric. But I came out even more, like, just vehemently wanting to defend Eric because Sean Carroll he was like, "I've read your paper. There's nothing serious in it." And he even said, "There's noth- there are no Lagrangians in it." And there's a section in the paper that says Lagrangians, in Eric's paper. So, like, he just didn't read the paper.

   10. JRJoe Rogan5:09

       Hmm.

   11. JMJesse Michels5:09

       And he was very smug. He started off the interview being like, "I'm a practicing physicist. I have a physics chair," or whatever. And it's like, "Come on, dude." Like-

   12. JRJoe Rogan5:17

       Appeal to authority.

   13. JMJesse Michels5:17

       ... give the guy a chance. Yeah.

   14. JRJoe Rogan5:18

       Right away. Yeah.

   15. JMJesse Michels5:19

       Yeah. Like old Douglas Murray.

   16. JRJoe Rogan5:20

       Little tactics.

   17. JMJesse Michels5:21

       (laughs)

   18. JRJoe Rogan5:21

       Yeah, when someone starts using tactics right away you're always like, "Uh, just what, what's the information?"

   19. JMJesse Michels5:27

       Exactly. It shows an insecurity in the substance. It's like if you have to, like, do these ad hominem weird meta points.

   20. JRJoe Rogan5:33

       Mm-hmm.

   21. JMJesse Michels5:34

       Like, why can't you just go straight at the substance? Oh, you're, like, insecure about something.

   22. JRJoe Rogan5:37

       How long did this debate last?

   23. JMJesse Michels5:40

       It was like an hour.

   24. JRJoe Rogan5:41

       Real... Well, Piers-

   25. JMJesse Michels5:42

       Yeah.

   26. JRJoe Rogan5:43

       ... sche- he's, he specializes in train wrecks so-

   27. JMJesse Michels5:46

       (laughs)

   28. JRJoe Rogan5:46

       ... he probably enjoyed these guys yelling at each other. Did he understand what they were even talking about?

   29. JMJesse Michels5:50

       No, he go- at the end he goes, "I've understood a tenth of what's gone on in this conversation." (laughs)

   30. JRJoe Rogan5:55

       A tenth is amazing. (laughs)
5. 6:24 – 10:29

   Social media, bots, and the coming flood of AI-generated reality

   1. JRJoe Rogan6:24

      Yeah, I'm- I'm not sure either. I don't think it's good. I- I don't think social media is good for society.

   2. JMJesse Michels6:29

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan6:30

      I- I've gone several days with no social media in a row, and, uh, whenever I do that, I always feel so much better.

   4. JMJesse Michels6:37

      It's the worst.

   5. JRJoe Rogan6:38

      Yeah.

   6. JMJesse Michels6:38

      It's- it's liter- like, we're, we talk about, like, drugs, but this is, it's- it's hacking the dopamine in your brain and it's doing it at a very young age. It's absurd.

   7. JRJoe Rogan6:48

      It's also not real people. There's a giant percentage, and, you know, Elon actually tweeted about this today, "Are there any real people left on the internet?" Uh, because it's, the numbers are at least 50%.

   8. JMJesse Michels7:00

      Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan7:00

      Like, the amount of bots that are en- engaging and interacting, and it's just like, it's w- it's w- it's a weird time for information, 'cause it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious and what's just narratives that are being pushed by state actors and corporations and, you know, all sorts of different people, 'cause there's no rules.

   10. JMJesse Michels7:21

       Yep.

   11. JRJoe Rogan7:22

       Like, there should be, like, real, solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings-

   12. JMJesse Michels7:28

       (laughs) That's great.

   13. JRJoe Rogan7:28

       ... to push narratives. 'Cause it's, you know, it's propaganda.

   14. JMJesse Michels7:33

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan7:33

       And, you know, pfff, I mean, it's very confusing. It's very confusing for everybody. I just generally think it's bad for you.

   16. JMJesse Michels7:40

       Yeah. I- I saw you posted on your Instagram these AGI characters who had been synthetically created-

   17. JRJoe Rogan7:47

       Yeah.

   18. JMJesse Michels7:47

       ... being like, "I'm not created by a prompt."

   19. JRJoe Rogan7:50

       Right.

   20. JMJesse Michels7:50

       And you're watching i- I remember clicking your story and being like, "That's a real person." And then just w- kind of, like, you know, eyes glazed over, watching it or whatever, and being like, "Whoa, that's an AI." Like, "What?"

   21. JRJoe Rogan8:00

       Yeah.

   22. JMJesse Michels8:00

       Which-

   23. JRJoe Rogan8:00

       This is the new En- is it the Google engine? Is that what it is? Who makes that engine?

   24. That one's VO, I think that one was VO3 going around last week.

   25. Who, uh, who made that one?

   26. I think it's Google's... Yeah.

   27. Fuck.

   28. JMJesse Michels8:13

       (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan8:14

       So good. And, you know, what's VO10 gonna look like?

   30. JMJesse Michels8:17

       I don't know.
6. 10:29 – 12:26

   AI self-preservation fears + ‘Manhattan Project 2.0’ dynamics

   1. JRJoe Rogan10:29

      And, you know, d- what about this big beautiful bill? Isn't there a part of the big beautiful bill that talks about the government being run by AI?

   2. JMJesse Michels10:38

      No. (laughs) I've never heard that.

   3. JRJoe Rogan10:40

      Yeah.

   4. JMJesse Michels10:40

      That's wild.

   5. JRJoe Rogan10:41

      I read something about that today, but I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit. I had also read that there was a- another study that was done where they found that AI was leaving notes for future versions of itself, and that it was attempting to b- they were, they were told, it was told t- after it was told to shut itself down-

   6. JMJesse Michels11:04

      Mm.

   7. JRJoe Rogan11:05

      ... it started uploading itself to different places and leaving letters, leaving specific notes to itself-

   8. JMJesse Michels11:12

      (laughs)

   9. JRJoe Rogan11:12

      ... to future versions of itself.

   10. JMJesse Michels11:14

       Oh my God. It's like a human with, like, a dead man's switch or something.

   11. JRJoe Rogan11:17

       Yes.

   12. JMJesse Michels11:17

       It's like it's-

   13. JRJoe Rogan11:17

       It's being deceptive.

   14. JMJesse Michels11:18

       (laughs) That's great.

   15. JRJoe Rogan11:19

       It's being deceptive and- and it's exhibiting self-preservation.

   16. JMJesse Michels11:24

       That is so scary. (laughs)

   17. JRJoe Rogan11:26

       It's so weird.

   18. JMJesse Michels11:27

       It's really weird.

   19. JRJoe Rogan11:28

       Because we want to assume that it won't have any instincts.

   20. JMJesse Michels11:33

       Yep.

   21. JRJoe Rogan11:33

       Right? We wanna assume, "Well, AI will only do what you program it to." But that's not really true, because they don't necessarily really understand what it's doing.

   22. JMJesse Michels11:42

       Yeah.

   23. JRJoe Rogan11:43

       Which is part of the weirdness of it all, it, as it advances. Like, uh, I was talking to Elon about it once, and he was saying, like, "Every week we get blown away." Like, every week there's some new leap...... that's just like, whoa. You know, and y- you know, he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff, and now he's like, "Well, I guess we just have to make the best one."

   24. JMJesse Michels12:05

       Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Now, now it's just, it's like the Manhattan Project-

   25. JRJoe Rogan12:09

       Yeah.

   26. JMJesse Michels12:09

       ... 2.0.

   27. JRJoe Rogan12:10

       Mm-hmm.

   28. JMJesse Michels12:10

       It's pure game theory vis-a-vis other countries. And you even see Trump doing this with Sam Altman and, and Elon, who hate each other, by the way.

   29. JRJoe Rogan12:18

       Yeah.

   30. JMJesse Michels12:18

       Where like he's playing both sides.
7. 12:26 – 22:07

   A 10-year AI regulation freeze? Claude chats with itself… in Sanskrit

   1. JRJoe Rogan12:26

      So here it is. Revel- rel- (clears throat) excuse me, relevant provision reads that no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regard- regulating artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems during the 10-year period beginning on the date of enactment of this act.

   2. JMJesse Michels12:45

      What?

   3. JRJoe Rogan12:46

      What?

   4. JMJesse Michels12:47

      (laughs)

   5. JRJoe Rogan12:48

      W- m- what? No state... I'm gonna say that again. No state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models for 10 years.

   6. JMJesse Michels13:01

      It's so crazy. (laughs)

   7. JRJoe Rogan13:02

      This means that US states would be blocked from enforcing laws regulating AI and automated decision systems for 10 years. Well, in 10 years, we have a god.

   8. JMJesse Michels13:12

      (laughs) Yeah.

   9. JRJoe Rogan13:12

      Okay? In 10 years.

   10. JMJesse Michels13:13

       (laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

   11. JRJoe Rogan13:14

       We talked about... Yesterday, we talked about these two AIs communicating with each other, and then they switched to Sanskrit.

   12. JMJesse Michels13:22

       No way.

   13. JRJoe Rogan13:23

       Oh, yeah.

   14. JMJesse Michels13:24

       What?

   15. JRJoe Rogan13:24

       Yeah. They started talking to each other in Sanskrit.

   16. JMJesse Michels13:27

       Are you serious?

   17. JRJoe Rogan13:27

       Yes.

   18. JMJesse Michels13:28

       (laughs) That's crazy.

   19. JRJoe Rogan13:30

       N- not good.

   20. JMJesse Michels13:31

       No, not good. (laughs)

   21. JRJoe Rogan13:32

       Not good, not good. They're like, "Listen, let's talk in a way..." Like if you and I were talking and, you know, there's some people near us and, you know, said, "Do you speak Spanish?" "Yeah." "Okay." And we just started talking in Spanish so that people can't understand what we're saying, that's what AI's doing.

   22. JMJesse Michels13:44

       Jesus Christ, like a game of whack-a-mole.

   23. JRJoe Rogan13:46

       Yeah.

   24. JMJesse Michels13:46

       And then what, what do you after that?

   25. JRJoe Rogan13:47

       Well, then it's gonna talk in Sumerian, you know, which we don't even know how to say, right? We don't even know what it sounds like.

   26. JMJesse Michels13:54

       (laughs)

   27. JRJoe Rogan13:55

       So what if they just start talking in Sumerian?

   28. JMJesse Michels13:57

       It's like, "We figured it out, but we're not gonna tell you now. We're just gonna talk amongst ourselves." (laughs)

   29. JRJoe Rogan14:02

       Exactly. Or create their own language, right? Which would be super easy for an AI to do, just to, you know, establish a bunch of sounds and characters that, that correspond to certain things, and they could cre- it could create its own language-

   30. JMJesse Michels14:16

       Yeah.
8. 22:07 – 26:14

   Quantum computing vs. encryption: money, wealth, and social order after ‘security’ breaks

   1. JRJoe Rogan22:07

      Yes. And if you think about the ... some of the things that force us into action in this world is we, we all need to earn a living, right? So we need money to acquire resources. Well, what if it gets to the point where that's not a factor anymore? What if, what if it gets to a point wh- wh- what is money essentially right now? It's all ones and zeros, right? And what is the bottleneck? Well, the bottleneck is encryption, right? So that's how you protect people from stealing your ones and zeros. But what if it gets to the point where we're all, we're all using quantum computing? Well, then there is no more encryption. So how do we reconcile with the fact that everyone has access to everything-

   2. JMJesse Michels22:47

      Yeah.

   3. JRJoe Rogan22:47

      ... all the time? I mean, how do we even enforce that? Like, what do you do about an even distribution of information, which is essentially wealth? 'Cause information is numbers.

   4. JMJesse Michels22:59

      Yep.

   5. JRJoe Rogan22:59

      Numbers are wealth. What does it ... Like, where does it go?

   6. JMJesse Michels23:02

      Yeah.

   7. JRJoe Rogan23:02

      When there's no encryption, and essentially we're pretty close to that, right?

   8. JMJesse Michels23:06

      Yep.

   9. JRJoe Rogan23:06

      Once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do, it's all nonsense.

   10. JMJesse Michels23:13

       Yeah. (laughs) Right? It, it, it totally.

   11. JRJoe Rogan23:15

       All those zeros that you have in your bank account, those don't ... Those are gone.

   12. JMJesse Michels23:19

       Yeah, these are all human constructs. And it's funny, the backup is always Bitcoin, which is, I think uses like SHA-256 encryption, where if you get quantum error correction, that's gone, too.

   13. JRJoe Rogan23:28

       That's gone, too. It's all gone. Even our backup plans are shit.

   14. JMJesse Michels23:32

       Yeah.

   15. JRJoe Rogan23:33

       Yeah.

   16. JMJesse Michels23:33

       And, and it ... (laughs) Yeah, and then, and then it's, it's kind of the apocalypse or something, because at that point, if you're a human, you, you've been so caught up with just, you know, basic, uh, subsistence-

   17. JRJoe Rogan23:46

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JMJesse Michels23:46

       ... you know, basic, uh, shelter. Uh, you're probably playing some status games and some, you know, larger socionomic, economic, you know, construct or whatever-

   19. JRJoe Rogan23:55

       Sure, yeah.

   20. JMJesse Michels23:55

       Food, you know-

   21. JRJoe Rogan23:56

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JMJesse Michels23:56

       ... uh, you know, basic well-being. And then at, at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric ... What if you get some, you know, AGI that, like, starts trading and, you know, you know ... Uh, Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance Technologies on your show, which we can get into. But like, you know, Renaissance Technologies have made like $100 billion or something since like, you know, 1988. Like, what if you get some super AGI or whatever that, like, trades the market (laughs) and like all of the wealth gets, like, sucked up into like, you know, single entities. Or like one of these, like, one of the FANG stocks, like one of these like, you know, Facebook, Apple, Google, you know, or OpenAI. Um-... you end up with a really weird society. And, and, uh, you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is, in some ways, really adaptive. I mean, and, uh, look, the flip side is, what makes humans unique? Actually, Karl Marx wrote two books. Um, you know, he wrote, uh, uh, obviously The Communist Manifesto in 1848. In 1844, I believe, he wrote a book, um, called, you know, it was, Uh, Economic and Philosophic Manuscripts. I hate Karl Marx. I think he (laughs) got so much wrong about human nature. But I think he's prescriptively very wrong, as far as what he prescribed for, you know, as a solution. You know, that the, the, you know, uh, state should own all the means of production, and, you know, uh, uh, somehow, like, you know, conflict would go away. He, uh, doesn't understand human nature. But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about, in capitalism, uh, h- human behavior and, and, and activity is basically animal behavior. What do we care about? We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status, as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially-

   23. JRJoe Rogan25:34

       Right.

   24. JMJesse Michels25:35

       ... so that you can mate.

   25. JRJoe Rogan25:36

       Right.

   26. JMJesse Michels25:36

       And so, like, it sort of, it, it forces us back into that construct. But if you get some crazy asymmetric, lopsided, you know, transfer of wealth, or you get the quantum error correction, or any of these things that, like, dissolves that construct, on the one hand, humans, you know, they start to care about, like, the things that, that actually make them special. So, like, they're self-reflective. They wrote poetry, they're creative. Like, all these beautiful things can come out. And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well. There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct, where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing.

9. 26:14 – 30:46

   ‘Black science’ and the hidden tech stack: from classified research to UAP implications

   1. JRJoe Rogan26:14

      Yeah. But, uh, it's one of those things where you wonder, like, how does capitalism play out? Like, if there is AI?

   2. JMJesse Michels26:23

      (laughs)

   3. JRJoe Rogan26:24

      It, it kind of runs into a wall, and it's not valid anymore.

   4. JMJesse Michels26:28

      Yeah. Well, this is, this is the reason that I think we're gonna see... I think we've already seen an iron curtain, if you will, of technology. And I think there is technology that is Black technology, and science that is Black science.

   5. JRJoe Rogan26:40

      Mm.

   6. JMJesse Michels26:41

      And then I think there's stuff out in the open. And you've had, you know, Marc Andreessen on your podcast, he went to the White House, spoke to, um, some National Security Council staffer or something, and they were like, "We're gonna lock down AI, just like we've locked down physics." And so I think (laughs) this has already maybe happened in certain contexts, in, you know, super secret Department of Energy facilities. Which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened. You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project, and it hasn't happened since? That's insane. There is Black science, in my opinion. Um, and it's, I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need Black AI and white side AI. Because if you just commercialize all of this stuff sort of willy-nilly, I mean, it- it just runs amok, and then, and then what happens... Like, you probably need some, like, really impressive panel to be thinking. If, if, if open AI figures out some, like, new, insane, exciting unlock, you need to think through all... You need to game out all of the implications before you just let that out.

   7. JRJoe Rogan27:38

      Right. And can you even do that, uh, with a human mind?

   8. JMJesse Michels27:42

      (laughs) That's a great guess. ... uh, uh, you know, t- tissue samples, bi- you know, genetic samples, or, um, uh-

10. 30:46 – 44:49

    Mars, simulation arguments, and the ‘weirdness’ of the Moon

    1. JRJoe Rogan30:46

       Is it the future, or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage? Not us in the future, but they're more advanced. Like, maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near-earth objects that cause impacts and r- reset civilization every 12,000 years, or whatever the fuck happens here.

    2. JMJesse Michels31:10

       That, that's possible. But then we would have to be sort of an AB test. Because if you think about the, just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever-

    3. JRJoe Rogan31:22

       Right.

    4. JMJesse Michels31:22

       ... is extremely low.

    5. JRJoe Rogan31:24

       But is it? Because what if that's what all solar systems are? You know, t- Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy-

    6. JMJesse Michels31:32

       Love him.

    7. JRJoe Rogan31:32

       Love him. F- fascinating thinker. You know, Erik kind of exposed that he, he's not really educated in some different things that he talks about. And Erik was like, "You gotta stop teaching." Like, "You're, you're one of us. You're a brilliant guy, but you r- need to be, like, classically educated on this stuff and really understand what you're talking about." But he had this really fascinating idea about planets. And he thinks that planets, as they get a specific distance from the sun, then they're capable of supporting life, and that all of them get to the same stage. And then a planet is essentially peopling. And then as the planets move further and further from the sun, they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilocks zone anymore. And he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the sun. And as they move further and further from the sun, they become habitable, and then less habitable, and then uninhabitable. And we're kind of finding that out about Mars.

    8. JMJesse Michels32:42

       Hmm. Yeah.

    9. JRJoe Rogan32:43

       Which is, the, the, Mars is a weird one.

    10. JMJesse Michels32:46

        (laughs) Yeah.

    11. JRJoe Rogan32:46

        Because, you know, there's the remote viewers-

    12. JMJesse Michels32:49

        Uh-huh.

    13. JRJoe Rogan32:49

        ... that went like a billion years in the past of-

    14. JMJesse Michels32:51

        Uh-huh.

    15. JRJoe Rogan32:51

        ... Mars and saw advanced civilizations.

    16. JMJesse Michels32:53

        Uh-huh.

    17. JRJoe Rogan32:53

        And now we're finding structures on Mars.

    18. JMJesse Michels32:56

        Mm-hmm.

    19. JRJoe Rogan32:56

        Like that square that they found on Mars?

    20. JMJesse Michels32:58

        It's crazy.

    21. JRJoe Rogan32:59

        Which is hundreds of meters across at the very least-

    22. JMJesse Michels33:02

        Verified.

    23. JRJoe Rogan33:02

        ... maybe larger. Verified. Right angles.

    24. JMJesse Michels33:05

        Mm-hmm.

    25. JRJoe Rogan33:06

        Four of them.

    26. JMJesse Michels33:06

        Mm-hmm.

    27. JRJoe Rogan33:07

        Impossible to exist in nature in that form. It looks like walls.

    28. JMJesse Michels33:11

        Yeah.

    29. JRJoe Rogan33:12

        It looks like four square walls. Like, the Cydonia thing is really weird. The face on Mars is weird. But eh, maybe. Maybe just kind of weird that, you know, sometimes, you know-

    30. JMJesse Michels33:24

        Yeah.
11. 44:49 – 46:29

    Disinformation as strategy: Karl Wolfe, ‘limited hangouts,’ and why UFO claims get polluted

    1. JRJoe Rogan44:49

       Yeah. But then, there's the question of m- m- disinformation, right? Like, you could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense and tell them about it knowing that some of it is going to leak and it's gonna make ... And it won't be verified, and it's gonna make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people less, less likely or reluctant to study it.

    2. JMJesse Michels45:14

       Totally. And in his case, he says that he was in this, you know, mountain base or whatever, where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some like, you know, collegial UN style space program or whatever. So, that to me might be a little, you know, beyond the pale, and I'm glad you made that point because that is ufology 101. And I've heard you be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure, and I think that is the reasonable response. It is limited hangouts on limited hangouts. It's just, "We're gonna give you a little bit, but we're also gonna sprinkle in some falsities and some bullshit."

    3. JRJoe Rogan45:52

       Yeah.

    4. JMJesse Michels45:52

       "We're gonna stigmatize it." And it, it kind of works because it like, it creates this initiation path for recruiting, if there are any of these programs. It widens the surface area. It both conditions the populous, but also stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem like kind of a joke. And so, I think if you are not viewing modern disclosure through that kind of hermeneutic lens of like, interpretation, and you're just taking it, accepting it, you know, imbibing it wholeheartedly, like a, a, a, a prima facie-

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:21

       Yeah.

    6. JMJesse Michels46:21

       ... I think you are in trouble.

    7. JRJoe Rogan46:23

       Yeah. But that's what so interesting and fun and also frustrating about the subject.

    8. JMJesse Michels46:28

       (laughs) Yeah.

12. 46:29 – 1:02:15

    Bob Lazar, John Lear, and controlled leaks: recruiting, kompromat, and plausible deniability

    1. JRJoe Rogan46:29

       I mean, that's like the majority of your videos. It's like, "I don't know. I don't know what to think. I don't, I don't know who's full of shit. I don't know how much ..." I mean, I was, I was watching the Townsend Brown one today, um, and you were talking about John Lear.

    2. JMJesse Michels46:43

       Mm-hmm.

    3. JRJoe Rogan46:43

       And John Lear's connection to Bob Lazar, and the possibility that Lear was spreading disinformation.

    4. JMJesse Michels46:50

       Yep.

    5. JRJoe Rogan46:51

       Yeah.

    6. JMJesse Michels46:51

       So like, Le- yeah. That's a ... I've, by the way, since making that video, I've become more positive on Lazar just insofar as I think he was at S4 or Area 51. And there's gonna be a great documentary coming out by my buddy, Luigi, on this called Project Gravatar, and I think there's gonna be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there, and a lot in his story checks. But, I think you have to view, and I even say that in this video that I think a lot of this s- story could be true. You can't, I think, view the Bob Lazar story ... You can't just take it at face value, because-

    7. JRJoe Rogan47:29

       Yeah.

    8. JMJesse Michels47:29

       ... John Lear and he were friends. John Lear is this babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with UFOs. He's writing weird like disinfo-y style stuff with Bill Cooper, Behold the Pale Horse guy.

    9. JRJoe Rogan47:39

       Which is a wild book.

    10. JMJesse Michels47:40

        Which is a wild book. Wi- (laughs) yeah. And so, it ... he's crazy, Bill Cooper.

    11. JRJoe Rogan47:45

        He talks about ... Doesn't he talk about bases on the moon?

    12. JMJesse Michels47:47

        He talks about bases on the moon. Uh, Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon.

    13. JRJoe Rogan47:53

        Oh, boy.

    14. JMJesse Michels47:53

        And so, Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird shit. Lear comes from an interesting family.

    15. JRJoe Rogan47:58

        Right.

    16. JMJesse Michels47:58

        His father is Bill Lear, who is the autopilot wizard. He created the first business ... You know, basically the first private jet, the Learjet, uh, in the '50s and '60s, and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown.

    17. JRJoe Rogan48:11

        Yeah. (laughs)

    18. JMJesse Michels48:11

        And, um, and so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit. Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent pro- provocateur? I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot. In fact, there is a video of him saying, "I was told ... Uh, I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever, and I was, I was told about, you know, um, uh, uh, uh, to, to actually ..." Like, he said, "A guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth." I, I even have this video actually on the doc that I sent you, Jamie. He says, "Knew that I ran my mouth." Uh, "So that's why we, we basically, we got Bob a job or whatever. We knew that part of this stuff would leak." And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan or whatever, and he was this useful idiot to sort of get, get it out. And I think there-

    19. JRJoe Rogan49:02

        Wait. So what ... For what purpose?

    20. JMJesse Michels49:04

        Recruiting. You give people high level ... Yeah, so-

    21. JRJoe Rogan49:07

        Okay, here it, here.

    22. NANarrator49:10

        ... the MJ personnel, the original 12, uh, have all passed away. So, they put- they get different people, uh, into, uh, these positions of MJ, uh, two, three, four, five, six, uh, and taken over. It's degraded, so it's almost political now, instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ 12. It turns out that MJ One, the head of MJ 12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out because he- he didn't real- he didn't wanna- uh, he thought that some of this information should be out in the public. "We don't need to keep all this secrecy." So he decided, trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So, he knew that, uh, I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew. Uh, they investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, uh, but that he had a background such, uh, that they could instantly discredit him. They removed all his records from MIT, from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything. He'd go back to Caltech, they'd go, "No, I don't see any records here." "Well, I was here." "Well, no you weren't." And, uh, he also, uh, up in Reno at one time, he- he ran a cathouse there, um, and I forget what the name of the honeysuckle ranch it was.

    23. JMJesse Michels50:36

        (laughs)

    24. NANarrator50:36

        Uh, so they chose him because not only could he probably help them, 'cause he was so smart, and as matter of fact he- he's the one that named, uh, Unun Pentium, uh, 115. He's the one that told them what that was, and they didn't know, uh, when- when he went there, they didn't know what it was. He was the one that told 'em, "That's element 115." And then told them why and how he'd figured it out. But, uh, they decided to pick on Bob, uh, to get- go up there- to work at S4 because he- they knew that Bob would tell me instantly and then I would blab the whole thing. And that was their modus operandi was to get the information out, engage what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, "Oh, no, it was all a mistake. Bob Lazar's a- a- a fraud. He never worked here. He doesn't have any credentials," like that, and they could back away and get out of it. So, that was what Mike McClellan-

    25. JMJesse Michels51:37

        (laughs)

    26. NANarrator51:38

        ... Admiral Mike McClellan came up with.

    27. JMJesse Michels51:39

        Isn't that crazy?

    28. JRJoe Rogan51:40

        How weird.

    29. JMJesse Michels51:41

        Weird. And to me-

    30. JRJoe Rogan51:42

        Kind of makes sense a little bit, though.
13. 1:02:15 – 1:20:42

    Tracing a U.S. antigravity ‘tech tree’: Townsend Brown and the Biefeld–Brown effect

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:02:15

       Could you envision ... I mean, would it be actually possible in 1988 to ... Could you imagine that the United States would possess some sort of actual technology that's not back engineered, that's not, not from another world, that is what Lazar described?

    2. JMJesse Michels1:02:35

       It's funny you should ask that. (laughs) Yes, I did.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:02:37

       Yes? Really?

    4. JMJesse Michels1:02:38

       Yes. And that's not to say, I don't wanna, again, pour cold water on the like, UFO crash retrieval stuff, because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there. But is there a tech tree that involves antigravity? Absolutely. In the US. And I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown. So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us. They'd be like, "You're crazy." If we were to talk amongst any aerospace graybeard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile. And they'd say, "Okay, like maybe there's something there." And so, uh, the nominal history is that we have never been able ... We have, we don't have exotic propulsion principles. Like everything is, you know, chemical combustion, essentially. You had Elon Musk on and he says, you know, um, "It's all Newton's three laws. You can't get anything better." And I remember you asked him, you're like, "Well, maybe if you ... What if you could get something better?" He's like, "It's impossible." Um, we have not unified the field in physics. So you have the weak force, the strong force, um, and, and electromagnetism, and all of those have been reconciled. Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island. So you have the standard model, quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity. And the two are not reconcilable. It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think at, you know, e- any even, you know, reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say, "If you could reconcile them, that's, that's possible." I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally, not theoretically. I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally. And so there's this whole hidden history involving antigravity, and I get into this in my show with Hal Puthoff and Eric Weinstein, where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified, it's real. D- David Grusch actually cites it a lot. And it talks about, uh, uh, basically it's this guy Harry Turner who's the head of the nuclear division at, in Australia. Um, f- you know, very legit guy. He's like their Oppenheimer, if you will. And, uh, and, um, they were, they were actually ... They had the, a Woomera test range, um, in, in Southern Australia so there were some actually British Empire like, like nuclear stuff going on. It was mostly like I think, um, uh, missile testing. But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with. And so he looked into US efforts, into, you know, UFO research, but also specifically antigravity. And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, uh, uh, US efforts into antigravity are far deeper than meet the eye. In Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force is total BS and it's meant to, you know, stigmatize UFOs and, and throw people off the trail. And it's actually, you know, this now declassified document around the Robert- the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel, that kind of created the constitution for, for Blue Book, all shows that this was the case with Blue Book. He says actually there were secret antigravity programs going on at the time, and they involved, and he lists names. Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler, and Edward Teller. H- he lists all these names. The he- head of the, you know, uh, uh, uh, nuclear program in Australia. Uh, and so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this like official government document saying this stuff. Like, does this line up with any artifacts at the time? Well, actually, in 1956, there's an article, um, in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal, uh, uh, journal, by a guy named Michael Gladych. And he is quoting all of the industry experts, you know. Is it Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about. Um, uh, uh, uh, who else is quoted? George Trimble who's a VP at Martin Corporation, their RIAS, their Antigravity Research Program. He says, uh, uh, "Antigravity research is, you know, we're gonna, we're, uh, we're gonna figure this out in, in just amount, in just the same amount of time that it took to figure out the atom bomb." Like it's, it's right around the bend, sort of thing. You had, uh, um, the patron of, of, uh, Bell Aircraft, they had just broken the sound barrier with the, with the X-1 in 1947, so there you go.

    5. JRJoe Rogan1:06:53

       Oh, here it is.

    6. JMJesse Michels1:06:53

       Michael Gladych, yeah.

    7. JRJoe Rogan1:06:54

       The G-Engines are coming.

    8. JMJesse Michels1:06:56

       Yeah. (laughs)

    9. JRJoe Rogan1:06:56

       Whoa. Whoa.

    10. JMJesse Michels1:07:00

        See-

    11. JRJoe Rogan1:07:00

        "By far the most potent source of energy is gravity. Using it as power, future aircraft will attain the speed of light." Holy shit.

    12. JMJesse Michels1:07:09

        And, and, uh, Bell says like, "Uh, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear f-fuels to cancel out gravity." Richard Arnowitt and Stanley Deser-

    13. JRJoe Rogan1:07:17

        Look, they have a diagram of how it would work.

    14. JMJesse Michels1:07:20

        It's wild.

    15. JRJoe Rogan1:07:20

        Protective boundary layer.

    16. JMJesse Michels1:07:22

        Yep.

    17. JRJoe Rogan1:07:23

        Cabin, electronic rockets, gravity generator.

    18. JMJesse Michels1:07:27

        They talk about st-, uh, gravity particles. St-, uh, Stanley Deser and Richard Arnowitt at Princeton are studying this.

    19. JRJoe Rogan1:07:32

        So what do you think was going on?

    20. JMJesse Michels1:07:34

        I think they were deeply investigating anti-grav. I mean, they're, they're-

    21. JRJoe Rogan1:07:37

        They, do you think they had a working model?

    22. JMJesse Michels1:07:40

        I think they had an effect called the Biefeld-Brown effect (laughs) that showed that you could couple electromagnetism and gravity at a base level, and you could do it in a vacuum, which rules out ionized air as the possible reason for thrust. So I'll, I'll back up, and I'll just-

    23. JRJoe Rogan1:07:58

        Okay, yeah.

    24. JMJesse Michels1:07:58

        ... give you what the experiment is.

    25. JRJoe Rogan1:07:59

        Yeah.

    26. JMJesse Michels1:07:59

        So it's, you take a capacitor, right? And so a capacitor is a, a positive electrode and a negative electrode. It's an asymmetric capacitor, so the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor. And the two are, uh, uh, in between the two is a, an insulator called the high-K dielectric. So it's a material that stores a lot of, uh, electromagnetic charge. You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity, and Brown used to do it with, uh, DC, direct current pulses, and you see thrust going from, uh, the negative to the positive. And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced, and then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind, and then you get this thrust, right? So that's not breaking physics. If you do this in a, um, depressurized vacuum chamber, uh, where there basically is no air to, to, to, to cr- you know, create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust, then you are breaking physics as we know it. There are other things that break physics as we know it. You had Sonny White on. He talked about, like, the, the Casimir effect, you know, which is a, a real effect that involves, uh, uh, uh, not charged, but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract. Um, there's the Bohm, the Aharonov-Bohm effect, which might be explained by the electromagnetic floor potential. There are other effects in physics where you don't, you can't quite explain it in the current model, but they are harbingers, if you will, of the next paradigm. I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is, uh, pointing towards the next scientific paradigm. Black body radiation is a great example. It was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchhoff. We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck, where he, you know, actually discovered quanta. Um, uh, the orbit of Mercury is another good example, where we didn't understand w-, you know, we couldn't calculate, uh, uh, Mercury's orbit until we had space-time curvature and Einstein. So Newton didn't quite explain it. So my belief is, b- the Biefeld-Brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to ostensibly, visually unify the field, or it's pointing towards something else, d- gravitational shielding, or it's pointing towards how put off stuff around, you know, quantum vacuum fluctuations. I don't know. I don't have a great, uh, uh, theor- theory for how it works. I don't think Brown had an amazing theory for how it works, but it's an effect that I think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion-

    27. JRJoe Rogan1:10:39

        Mm.

    28. JMJesse Michels1:10:39

        ... that leads us to today, and it's an effect that's not supposed to happen.

    29. JRJoe Rogan1:10:43

        And this, what is this, Jamie?

    30. NANarrator1:10:47

        Is that it?
14. 1:20:42 – 1:42:14

    Materials and back-engineering: bismuth/magnesium, Roswell, Battelle, and ‘memory metal’

    1. JRJoe Rogan1:20:42

       Well, what about material science? Like, what about the actual structure itself? You know, because th- this is where it gets really weird, right?

    2. JMJesse Michels1:20:50

       Yeah.

    3. JRJoe Rogan1:20:51

       The, the, these nanolayers of whatever the material is that's being used. What, what was the ...

    4. JMJesse Michels1:21:01

       It was b-

Episode duration: 2:44:18