EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,005 words- 0:00 – 15:00
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast,…
- NANarrator
(drumming music) Joe Rogan podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience.
- JRJoe Rogan
Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. (rock music) Well, it's great to finally physically meet you, face to face, man.
- JMJesse Michels
It's an absolute honor and, uh, I love your show so much. I'm a super fan, so this is-
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, thank you.
- JMJesse Michels
... surreal just to be here.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, I love your show too, so I've been binging. I've been watching so many episodes, uh, ever since we talked. I, well, I, I've seen them before but, I mean, I've been really binging getting ready for the show.
- JMJesse Michels
I just don't know what to say. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs) How did you get so deep down the rabbit hole? Like, what made you want to dedicate so much time on this, this particular UAP, UFO, you know, lost technology subject?
- JMJesse Michels
I was working at, uh, Peter Thiel's family office in LA and, uh, part of the job is, like, kind of traditional venture investing, so, like, investing in startups. And then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office and we would, like, host events and discussions.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm.
- JMJesse Michels
And I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology. Like, religion and politics and economics, and, like, all sorts of topics.
- JRJoe Rogan
Were you there when he brought in the guy... Oh, fuck, what is his name?
- JMJesse Michels
I know what you're gonna say.
- JRJoe Rogan
Uh-
- JMJesse Michels
Erich von Däniken.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes.
- JMJesse Michels
I suggested that you come because I was like, "Joe is gonna be really into this." (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JMJesse Michels
And you weren't that into it. But that's okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
I was into it.
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
I just think that he just makes some leaps-
- JMJesse Michels
I agree.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that are kind of silly.
- JMJesse Michels
I agree with that. Although I think there's a lot of... Yeah, I think he, like, crosses the T and dots the I where you, d- d- there is no dot or cross or whatever.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
But I do think there's some interesting preliminary evidence around People from the Stars across disparate cultures. And you just had Zahi Hawass on.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
And a lot of this megalithic architecture, you're like, "How can it be built?" He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially, Erich von Däniken, I think.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes, and I think he's also, like, he made these conclusions in the 1970s and he's kind of, like, sticking with them.
- 15:00 – 30:00
Right. …
- JMJesse Michels
out and be like, "Uh, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI safety." A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, "This is statistics on steroids. This is probability matrices. You know, you're seeing sort of crazy stuff." I don't... You know, they, they can't sort of... There's no ghost in the machine, you know?
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
So, I go back and forth on where we're gonna be, you know, and whether we're in some crazy hype cycle. I, I, I have the same concerns as you, but it's just, it's hard to predict the future. I worry probably mostly about two things. Um, you can easily, you know, jailbreak ChatGPT. You know, it has guardrails on it.
- JRJoe Rogan
Mm-hmm.
- JMJesse Michels
And what happens when you start to ask, like, how do I make a nerve agent with off-the-shelf components?
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, people have done things like that.
- JMJesse Michels
Right.
- JRJoe Rogan
They've a- asked it to make anthrax. Like, if my grandmother was doing this, like how would she... Like, there's ways to get the prompt to give you information that it probably shouldn't. You know?
- JMJesse Michels
There's stuff with UFO research (laughs) where I get into like, you know, certain, uh, technology trees that are probably like, you know, maybe I shouldn't. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JMJesse Michels
And you can ask ChatGPT certain things, like analyze this paper, and it'll spit out some really interesting things. So...
- JRJoe Rogan
What are we doing?
- JMJesse Michels
I don't know.
- JRJoe Rogan
And we've already done it, so it's too late. Like, we lit the fuse.
- JMJesse Michels
You think it's over? (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
Okay.
- JRJoe Rogan
But I also kind of think that's what people are put here for.
- JMJesse Michels
Hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
If... Look, if the whole Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings were genetically engineered from lower primates to make this super curious, hyper-focused animal that is concerned primarily with innovation, like overall, the thing that we do as a culture, what do we do? We make better things all the time. And even our own, uh, instincts towards materialism and keeping up with the Joneses, all that stuff essentially fuels innovation, 'cause it fuels a constant supply of newer, better technology that people wanna go out and purchase. You know, you can't have an iPhone 12. People look at you, "What are you, poor?"
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
You know, which is kind of wild, you know? 'Cause a lot of technology is essentially exactly the same as it was 20, 15 years ago. You know?
- JMJesse Michels
Status symbol.
- JRJoe Rogan
But, yeah. It's like there's, there's a thing about it that forces us to want to purchase these things, which forces the innovation. Well, where does that ultimately lead to?
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, it ultimately leads to AI. Uh, uh, ultimately, what's the ultimate expression of technology? Technology that itself invents better technology.
- JMJesse Michels
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
And r- can run everything without emotions that we... That fuck us up, and greed, and all, all of the, the things that we would all agree that are a problem with human beings.
- JMJesse Michels
I also think there is a tide shift, where if you look at spears to airplanes, all of those things are augmentations of human ability. Like the-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- 30:00 – 45:00
Is it the future,…
- JMJesse Michels
... uh, uh, you know, t- tissue samples, bi- you know, genetic samples, or, um, uh-
- JRJoe Rogan
Is it the future, or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage? Not us in the future, but they're more advanced. Like, maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near-earth objects that cause impacts and r- reset civilization every 12,000 years, or whatever the fuck happens here.
- JMJesse Michels
That, that's possible. But then we would have to be sort of an AB test. Because if you think about the, just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever-
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
... is extremely low.
- JRJoe Rogan
But is it? Because what if that's what all solar systems are? You know, t- Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy-
- JMJesse Michels
Love him.
- JRJoe Rogan
Love him. F- fascinating thinker. You know, Erik kind of exposed that he, he's not really educated in some different things that he talks about. And Erik was like, "You gotta stop teaching." Like, "You're, you're one of us. You're a brilliant guy, but you r- need to be, like, classically educated on this stuff and really understand what you're talking about." But he had this really fascinating idea about planets. And he thinks that planets, as they get a specific distance from the sun, then they're capable of supporting life, and that all of them get to the same stage. And then a planet is essentially peopling. And then as the planets move further and further from the sun, they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilocks zone anymore. And he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the sun. And as they move further and further from the sun, they become habitable, and then less habitable, and then uninhabitable. And we're kind of finding that out about Mars.
- JMJesse Michels
Hmm. Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is, the, the, Mars is a weird one.
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
Because, you know, there's the remote viewers-
- JMJesse Michels
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... that went like a billion years in the past of-
- JMJesse Michels
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
... Mars and saw advanced civilizations.
- JMJesse Michels
Uh-huh.
- JRJoe Rogan
And now we're finding structures on Mars.
- JMJesse Michels
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Like that square that they found on Mars?
- JMJesse Michels
It's crazy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is hundreds of meters across at the very least-
- JMJesse Michels
Verified.
- JRJoe Rogan
... maybe larger. Verified. Right angles.
- JMJesse Michels
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Four of them.
- JMJesse Michels
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
Impossible to exist in nature in that form. It looks like walls.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
It looks like four square walls. Like, the Cydonia thing is really weird. The face on Mars is weird. But eh, maybe. Maybe just kind of weird that, you know, sometimes, you know-
- 45:00 – 1:00:00
Totally. And in his…
- JRJoe Rogan
and tell them about it knowing that some of it is going to leak and it's gonna make ... And it won't be verified, and it's gonna make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people less, less likely or reluctant to study it.
- JMJesse Michels
Totally. And in his case, he says that he was in this, you know, mountain base or whatever, where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some like, you know, collegial UN style space program or whatever. So, that to me might be a little, you know, beyond the pale, and I'm glad you made that point because that is ufology 101. And I've heard you be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure, and I think that is the reasonable response. It is limited hangouts on limited hangouts. It's just, "We're gonna give you a little bit, but we're also gonna sprinkle in some falsities and some bullshit."
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
"We're gonna stigmatize it." And it, it kind of works because it like, it creates this initiation path for recruiting, if there are any of these programs. It widens the surface area. It both conditions the populous, but also stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem like kind of a joke. And so, I think if you are not viewing modern disclosure through that kind of hermeneutic lens of like, interpretation, and you're just taking it, accepting it, you know, imbibing it wholeheartedly, like a, a, a, a prima facie-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
... I think you are in trouble.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. But that's what so interesting and fun and also frustrating about the subject.
- JMJesse Michels
(laughs) Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
I mean, that's like the majority of your videos. It's like, "I don't know. I don't know what to think. I don't, I don't know who's full of shit. I don't know how much ..." I mean, I was, I was watching the Townsend Brown one today, um, and you were talking about John Lear.
- JMJesse Michels
Mm-hmm.
- JRJoe Rogan
And John Lear's connection to Bob Lazar, and the possibility that Lear was spreading disinformation.
- JMJesse Michels
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
So like, Le- yeah. That's a ... I've, by the way, since making that video, I've become more positive on Lazar just insofar as I think he was at S4 or Area 51. And there's gonna be a great documentary coming out by my buddy, Luigi, on this called Project Gravatar, and I think there's gonna be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there, and a lot in his story checks. But, I think you have to view, and I even say that in this video that I think a lot of this s- story could be true. You can't, I think, view the Bob Lazar story ... You can't just take it at face value, because-
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah.
- JMJesse Michels
... John Lear and he were friends. John Lear is this babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with UFOs. He's writing weird like disinfo-y style stuff with Bill Cooper, Behold the Pale Horse guy.
- JRJoe Rogan
Which is a wild book.
- JMJesse Michels
Which is a wild book. Wi- (laughs) yeah. And so, it ... he's crazy, Bill Cooper.
- JRJoe Rogan
He talks about ... Doesn't he talk about bases on the moon?
- JMJesse Michels
He talks about bases on the moon. Uh, Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, boy.
- JMJesse Michels
And so, Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird shit. Lear comes from an interesting family.
- JRJoe Rogan
Right.
- JMJesse Michels
His father is Bill Lear, who is the autopilot wizard. He created the first business ... You know, basically the first private jet, the Learjet, uh, in the '50s and '60s, and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yeah. (laughs)
- JMJesse Michels
And, um, and so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit. Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent pro- provocateur? I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot. In fact, there is a video of him saying, "I was told ... Uh, I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever, and I was, I was told about, you know, um, uh, uh, uh, to, to actually ..." Like, he said, "A guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth." I, I even have this video actually on the doc that I sent you, Jamie. He says, "Knew that I ran my mouth." Uh, "So that's why we, we basically, we got Bob a job or whatever. We knew that part of this stuff would leak." And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan or whatever, and he was this useful idiot to sort of get, get it out. And I think there-
- JRJoe Rogan
Wait. So what ... For what purpose?
- JMJesse Michels
Recruiting. You give people high level ... Yeah, so-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, here it, here.
- NANarrator
... the MJ personnel, the original 12, uh, have all passed away. So, they put- they get different people, uh, into, uh, these positions of MJ, uh, two, three, four, five, six, uh, and taken over. It's degraded, so it's almost political now, instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ 12. It turns out that MJ One, the head of MJ 12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out because he- he didn't real- he didn't wanna- uh, he thought that some of this information should be out in the public. "We don't need to keep all this secrecy." So he decided, trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So, he knew that, uh, I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew. Uh, they investigated Bob Lazar and they knew that he was a genius, uh, but that he had a background such, uh, that they could instantly discredit him. They removed all his records from MIT, from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything. He'd go back to Caltech, they'd go, "No, I don't see any records here." "Well, I was here." "Well, no you weren't." And, uh, he also, uh, up in Reno at one time, he- he ran a cathouse there, um, and I forget what the name of the honeysuckle ranch it was.
- 1:00:00 – 1:15:00
(laughs) …
- JMJesse Michels
Skunk Works director. Skunk Works is the most advanced R&D division of Lockheed Martin. And, uh, Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started Skunk Works. And so, uh, Ben Rich was very pro-stealth. He thought that this was r- ... This really important modality. And he and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross-sections on planes. And that's where the F-117 came, and, you know, the B-2 was sort of the response to that. And it sort of took off in the '80s. And he was extremely, uh, scared about- about tech protection at the time. And he was hypervigilant, and he would actively complain about it. And he cal- ... He even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time.
- JRJoe Rogan
(laughs)
- JMJesse Michels
Pretty crazy, right? (laughs) So, that's the backdrop. And there's also ... In 1986, there's a budget line item in the Congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora. And, um, uh, this is this super stealthy craft that's post-F-117.And, uh, that's only rumored. Like today, nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real. And the, uh, the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR-71 or the space shuttle. And so there was something being flown around at that time that was c- you know, causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for.
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa.
- JMJesse Michels
And e- e- Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, "I saw the Aurora." It was like, you know, it was, it was around at the time and it sort of just took off or whatever. Which is, I think a point in the direction that Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff because why are you exposing some probably classified tech? I, I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real. There was a, an oil rig engineer in the North Sea, uh, or sorry, may- it might have been the Black Sea, that sketched it out. And Bill Sweetman this, um, uh, Jane's Defense Weekly, uh, aviation journalist, you know, picked that story up. There-
- JRJoe Rogan
What did he describe it as?
- JMJesse Michels
Uh, this, this, s- uh, kind of ... It was a triangle similar to the B2, but I think more, more narrow. And it just flew incredibly fast. Like, like, uh, uh, faster than, you know, the F-117. And, and, um, yeah, yeah. I don't know. It was a, it was just su- super advanced.
- JRJoe Rogan
Could you envision ... I mean, would it be actually possible in 1988 to ... Could you imagine that the United States would possess some sort of actual technology that's not back engineered, that's not, not from another world, that is what Lazar described?
- JMJesse Michels
It's funny you should ask that. (laughs) Yes, I did.
- JRJoe Rogan
Yes? Really?
- JMJesse Michels
Yes. And that's not to say, I don't wanna, again, pour cold water on the like, UFO crash retrieval stuff, because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there. But is there a tech tree that involves antigravity? Absolutely. In the US. And I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown. So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us. They'd be like, "You're crazy." If we were to talk amongst any aerospace graybeard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile. And they'd say, "Okay, like maybe there's something there." And so, uh, the nominal history is that we have never been able ... We have, we don't have exotic propulsion principles. Like everything is, you know, chemical combustion, essentially. You had Elon Musk on and he says, you know, um, "It's all Newton's three laws. You can't get anything better." And I remember you asked him, you're like, "Well, maybe if you ... What if you could get something better?" He's like, "It's impossible." Um, we have not unified the field in physics. So you have the weak force, the strong force, um, and, and electromagnetism, and all of those have been reconciled. Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island. So you have the standard model, quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity. And the two are not reconcilable. It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think at, you know, e- any even, you know, reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say, "If you could reconcile them, that's, that's possible." I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally, not theoretically. I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally. And so there's this whole hidden history involving antigravity, and I get into this in my show with Hal Puthoff and Eric Weinstein, where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified, it's real. D- David Grusch actually cites it a lot. And it talks about, uh, uh, basically it's this guy Harry Turner who's the head of the nuclear division at, in Australia. Um, f- you know, very legit guy. He's like their Oppenheimer, if you will. And, uh, and, um, they were, they were actually ... They had the, a Woomera test range, um, in, in Southern Australia so there were some actually British Empire like, like nuclear stuff going on. It was mostly like I think, um, uh, missile testing. But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with. And so he looked into US efforts, into, you know, UFO research, but also specifically antigravity. And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, uh, uh, US efforts into antigravity are far deeper than meet the eye. In Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force is total BS and it's meant to, you know, stigmatize UFOs and, and throw people off the trail. And it's actually, you know, this now declassified document around the Robert- the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel, that kind of created the constitution for, for Blue Book, all shows that this was the case with Blue Book. He says actually there were secret antigravity programs going on at the time, and they involved, and he lists names. Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler, and Edward Teller. H- he lists all these names. The he- head of the, you know, uh, uh, uh, nuclear program in Australia. Uh, and so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this like official government document saying this stuff. Like, does this line up with any artifacts at the time? Well, actually, in 1956, there's an article, um, in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal, uh, uh, journal, by a guy named Michael Gladych. And he is quoting all of the industry experts, you know. Is it Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about. Um, uh, uh, uh, who else is quoted? George Trimble who's a VP at Martin Corporation, their RIAS, their Antigravity Research Program. He says, uh, uh, "Antigravity research is, you know, we're gonna, we're, uh, we're gonna figure this out in, in just amount, in just the same amount of time that it took to figure out the atom bomb." Like it's, it's right around the bend, sort of thing. You had, uh, um, the patron of, of, uh, Bell Aircraft, they had just broken the sound barrier with the, with the X-1 in 1947, so there you go.
- JRJoe Rogan
Oh, here it is.
- JMJesse Michels
Michael Gladych, yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The G-Engines are coming.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah. (laughs)
- JRJoe Rogan
Whoa. Whoa.
- JMJesse Michels
See-
- JRJoe Rogan
"By far the most potent source of energy is gravity. Using it as power, future aircraft will attain the speed of light." Holy shit.
- JMJesse Michels
And, and, uh, Bell says like, "Uh, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear f-fuels to cancel out gravity." Richard Arnowitt and Stanley Deser-
- JRJoe Rogan
Look, they have a diagram of how it would work.
- JMJesse Michels
It's wild.
- JRJoe Rogan
Protective boundary layer.
- JMJesse Michels
Yep.
- JRJoe Rogan
Cabin, electronic rockets, gravity generator.
- JMJesse Michels
They talk about st-, uh, gravity particles. St-, uh, Stanley Deser and Richard Arnowitt at Princeton are studying this.
- JRJoe Rogan
So what do you think was going on?
- JMJesse Michels
I think they were deeply investigating anti-grav. I mean, they're, they're-
- JRJoe Rogan
They, do you think they had a working model?
- JMJesse Michels
I think they had an effect called the Biefeld-Brown effect (laughs) that showed that you could couple electromagnetism and gravity at a base level, and you could do it in a vacuum, which rules out ionized air as the possible reason for thrust. So I'll, I'll back up, and I'll just-
- JRJoe Rogan
Okay, yeah.
- 1:15:00 – 1:21:01
The idea that they've…
- JMJesse Michels
a letter saying, "I witnessed this effect. It's an anomalous effect." From there, he goes on and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius who's at the Wright P- Patterson, or Wright Airfield at the time, flight test division. He's working with Colonel Albert Boyd, um, on all the, you know, crazy flight tests. In 1952, he says, "Believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer and I was frightened. And I'm frightened for it getting out because," and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, "because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development." And that's 1952. Um, he then shows, uh, a, a fan precipitator experiment which really shows the electrohygi- hydrodynamic effect, which is similar but not the same as the, the electromagnetism gravity thing, to Edward Teller, the father of the H-bomb. And Edward Teller himself says, "I don't know how this works." And then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter, and I have this by the way on a, uh, phone call where t- with Townsend Brown's daughter who's saying this all happened. Uh, it's, uh, turns to, to, um, to her and she says, "I've never heard him say that," 'cause he's such a genius. I mean, it was just, uh, Hungarian, brilliant, you know, father of the H-bomb. And, um, so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses. Ed- um, uh, Brown was an associate of Bill Lear. You have video of Bill Lear and Townsend Brown together in a lab, in the Bahnsen lab in North Carolina together. In fact, there's a Chapel Hill conference in 1957 which is, basically creates quantum gravity, of which the offshoot is string theory. And actually, Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show. And it's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill. They are funding Brown's work in the back room, and there is video of Brown working on his experiments, working under Agnew Bahnsen. And in that 1971 Australian intell- intelligence memo, you have all these outposts of antigravity research. U- University of North Carolina is one of those outposts. It's crazy. And it says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all of this stuff. The president of University of North Carolina in the '50s, around this time, is a guy named Gordon Gray, who's a super spooky guy who's, uh, uh... He, he, he, he, um, revoked Oppenheimer's queue clearance, and, uh, he's also implicated in these sort of MJ-12 documents which I don't necessarily wanna mush in with Brown. It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material, like limited hangout lens. But Gordon Gray is this very interesting character. The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill conference, and this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world, Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergmann, uh, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people. At the same time, they were funding in the back room this kind of zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers. And there's video of him popping champagne, where it's like, "Why are you popping champagne?" Probably 'cause you got a successful experiment. That was the second time he had e- he had, um, tested this in a vacuum. So again, it's, it's reduced... It's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect. Before that, a year before that, um, in Paris at the Mo- Montgolfier facilities, he performed this in a vacuum. And this guy named Jacques Cornillon was this... He died in 2009. But Townsend Brown's biographer has him on record in a, in a phone call that is recorded saying, "The tests were very tricky, but in the end we got it to work." And he's on his deathbed, and he's saying all this. And you have an 120-page or 125-page report for the Montgolfier project. And when Brown comes back to the, to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher who runs-... rampant, I mean, there are so many Sarbacher stories when it comes to UFOs. He says that UFOs are classified two points higher than the H-bomb. He's talking to this guy, Wilbert Smith, who's this, um, magnetics expert in, in, in Canada, about their experimentations via, you know, with UFOs. And so, he's the guy that picks up ... And he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush, at the time. And he's the guy who picks up Brown, where it's like, "Okay, we've, we've gotta take, take this seriously because you got it to work in a vacuum."
- JRJoe Rogan
The idea that they've kept all this secret for all these years seems impossible.
- JMJesse Michels
I don't think it is.
- JRJoe Rogan
To, to me.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah, sure.
- JRJoe Rogan
Y- y- I mean, I, I'm sure it's not.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
But, you know what I mean? But from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects, that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for decades.
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah. It seems crazy to me, but he had something ... Brown had something called his Wounded Prairie Chicken Routine, which is basically showing people something called ... It was basically the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is not the electrogravitic effect. So, these are two very different things. One is coupling, again, electromagnetism and gravity somehow, or creating some gravity shielding or whatever. You can do this in a vacuum. And then, the other thing is what you can see on YouTube videos, which is associated with Townsend Brown, where you have, um, basically these balsa wood structures. You have tin foil at the bottom, and you have a copper wire at the top. The copper wire is the positive electrode. The tin foil is the negative electrode. The copper wire is producing ions, which is creating thrust because those i- neutral ions are bombarding the wind, which is creating thrust in, in a certain direction. So, that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electrogravitic thing. It, it wears the mantle of being electrogravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that you can just describe using normal physics and, you know, Newton's Laws.
- JRJoe Rogan
Well, what about material science? Like, what about the actual structure itself? You know, because th- this is where it gets really weird, right?
- JMJesse Michels
Yeah.
- JRJoe Rogan
The, the, these nanolayers of whatever the material is that's being used. What, what was the ...
- JMJesse Michels
It was b-
Episode duration: 2:44:18
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