CHAPTERS
- 0:00 – 3:21
Why 'The Smashing Machine' works as a film (not just an MMA movie)
Joe opens by praising the new Mark Kerr biopic for being a compelling drama that happens to be set in MMA. Mark reacts to seeing Dwayne Johnson capture his mannerisms and personality with uncanny accuracy, and they highlight Emily Blunt’s tense, anxiety-inducing performance as Dawn.
- •Joe’s expectations vs. the film’s emotional depth and craftsmanship
- •Dwayne Johnson’s unexpectedly strong dramatic acting
- •Mark’s son noticing the precise recreation of Mark’s speech and mannerisms
- •Emily Blunt’s portrayal of volatile relationship dynamics
- 3:21 – 4:47
Watching your life on screen: Venice premiere as therapy and self-reckoning
Mark describes seeing the finished film in Venice sitting next to the cast and director, and how the final scene hit him like therapy. He reflects on the costs of singular ambition and the emotional toll his pursuit of greatness took on the people around him—especially Dawn.
- •Venice screening experience with Benny Safdie, DJ, and Emily Blunt
- •Seeing his own role in conflict and collateral damage
- •The mindset of chasing success “at all costs”
- •How the film forced a more objective self-view
- 4:47 – 6:40
Early UFC era and the birth of MMA: Joe’s 1997 memories and the “best style” question
Joe and Mark rewind to the late 90s—when MMA was still strange and underground—and discuss how Joe got involved with early UFC broadcasts. They revisit the original appeal of MMA: finally testing styles in real competition, and how Japan’s scene accelerated the sport.
- •Joe’s early UFC work: backstage/post-fight interviews and low pay
- •How UFC answered the lifelong “best martial art” debate
- •Japan’s events (Vale Tudo → PRIDE) pushing the sport’s growth
- •How bizarre MMA sounded to normal people in the 90s
- 6:40 – 9:59
Why wrestling rules MMA: control, pace, cardio, and sustained attacks
They break down wrestling’s core advantage: dictating where the fight happens and forcing opponents to work. Mark explains the “wrestler definition” through control and positional dominance, and they connect it to modern examples like Khamzat, Merab, and prime Cain Velasquez.
- •Wrestling as the foundational MMA skill: location and control
- •Sustained flurries and chain attacks (Russian/Dagestan style)
- •Cardio as the multiplier for grappling dominance
- •Examples: Khamzat Chimaev, Merab Dvalishvili, Cain Velasquez
- 9:59 – 15:21
Steroids, PRIDE culture, and the wild west of contracts and “drug testing”
The conversation shifts to the open-secret steroid era and the lack of testing—especially in PRIDE. Mark and Joe share stories about how norms changed when huge wrestler-athletes appeared, plus absurd anecdotes about sham drug tests and contract chaos.
- •How Kerr/Coleman-era physiques changed incentives and expectations
- •TRT Vitor and the impact of hormone policies on performance
- •PRIDE’s infamous non-testing culture (and how it functioned in practice)
- •The overall ‘wild west’ feel of early MMA business
- 15:21 – 37:29
Authenticity obsession: rebuilding 1990s MMA sets, props, and PRIDE weirdness
Mark explains the years-long development of the film (starting in 2019) and the trust required to let it happen. They describe painstaking efforts to recreate arenas, backstage spaces, props, and the surreal moment Mark first saw DJ in full prosthetics—like meeting a doppelgänger.
- •Film development timeline and the “trust factor” with DJ
- •Sending real watches/rings/posters for accurate props and sets
- •Vancouver set visits triggering intense flashbacks
- •First encounter with DJ-as-Mark: prosthetics, cauliflower ear, and the ‘mirror’ moment
- 37:29 – 41:14
PRIDE vs UFC: Kerr’s contract dispute, almost fighting Royce Gracie, and Japan’s hidden operators
Mark details how he moved from UFC tournament deals into PRIDE’s world, including being sued by the UFC and the months-long legal mess. He also reveals the near-reality of fighting Royce Gracie in the Tokyo Dome, plus the culture shock of PRIDE’s leadership and naming conventions.
- •UFC 14/15 tournament deal and lingering obligations
- •PRIDE courting Kerr as a cornerstone and the lawsuit fallout
- •The canceled Royce Gracie matchup and replacement opponent
- •PRIDE’s behind-the-scenes figures and cultural business norms
- 41:14 – 51:19
Heavyweight realities: weight, overtraining, nerves, and the Fujita hypoglycemic crash
They get into the physical constraints of being an enormous heavyweight—how mass affects breathing, cardio, and performance. Mark explains the training evolution that brought his weight down, the risks of overtraining, and how fight-week nerves and low food intake led to a dangerous blood-sugar crash against Fujita.
- •Kerr’s heaviest size and why it was unsustainable for cardio
- •Functional training and early heart-rate concepts (Frank Shamrock influence)
- •Ideal heavyweight range and the tradeoff between conditioning and dominance
- •Fight-week appetite loss → hypoglycemia during the Fujita fight
- 51:19 – 56:08
MMA’s modern leap: technique explosion, GOAT debates, and the “new gear” phenomenon
Joe and Mark compare MMA’s rapid evolution from the 90s to today and argue it may be unmatched in sport. They debate greatness in context (prime vs late career), talk Jon Jones’ brilliance and chaos, and return to the theme of rare athletes who access a gear others can’t.
- •Why MMA’s training and skill progression is uniquely fast
- •Prime vs post-prime when evaluating GOATs (GSP, DJ, Anderson, BJ, Khabib)
- •Jon Jones: dominance, missed fights, and ‘wildness’ under pressure
- •The recurring idea of outliers with unmatched pace and endurance
- 56:08 – 1:46:51
Money, careers, and building fighters: PRIDE paydays, cash briefcases, and UFC’s growth pains
Mark explains how early fights were “internally funded” and how PRIDE money turned fighting into a real profession—sometimes literally paid in cash. They discuss fighter pay as investment in performance, the UFC’s near-collapse, and how The Ultimate Fighter changed everything.
- •Transition from scraping by to stable ‘professional fighter’ income
- •PRIDE paying in cash (and the chaos of transporting/declaring it)
- •Fertittas, Dana, and how TUF/Bonnar vs Griffin ignited mainstream growth
- •The argument for better baseline pay to enable better camps and recovery
- 1:46:51 – 2:12:21
Advice for young fighters: build a base with grappling, then scale into MMA promotions
They shift into practical guidance: how a developing fighter should structure a path without getting thrown into elite competition too soon. Mark emphasizes submission grappling as a low-impact way to learn competition and preparation, then layering striking and pro fights strategically.
- •Start with submission grappling to learn competition without strike damage
- •Use ADCC-style events to build composure and preparation habits
- •Add striking later and climb organizations gradually (PFL/others as stepping stones)
- •The danger of premature UFC-level matchups and confidence damage
- 2:12:21 – 2:31:10
Addiction, identity, and redemption: from shame and opioids to sobriety and meaning
Mark gets deeply personal about substance abuse, the early misunderstanding of opioid addiction, and how shame traps people in secrecy. He describes the pivotal moments around the HBO documentary, why he didn’t veto it, his sobriety date tied to his mother’s death, and the long process of rebuilding identity beyond fighting.
- •Pain management → addiction, plus the era’s misinformation about opiates
- •Shame as the engine of secrecy and continued addiction
- •The documentary screening: having veto power but choosing honesty for impact
- •Sobriety anchored by family (his son’s request) and rebuilding life beyond being ‘a fighter’
- 2:31:10 – 2:55:30
Psychedelic therapies, meditation, and staying open-minded about healing
Joe introduces ibogaine as a powerful addiction-interruption tool now gaining traction, especially for veterans with PTSD. Mark connects this to broader lifestyle changes—meditation, chanting, nature, and openness to ideas he would have dismissed while fighting and using.
- •Ibogaine as a non-recreational, highly introspective anti-addiction intervention
- •Neuroplasticity and shifting perspectives after psychedelic experiences
- •Meditation beyond fight visualization; exploring mental states and recovery
- •Nature, grounding practices, and challenging rigid worldviews
- 2:55:30 – 3:03:06
Closing reflections: when to retire, the loneliness of fighting, and the film’s legacy
They close on what it costs to be elite: the dark ‘switch’ required to hurt people, the loneliness before and after fights, and the impossibility of staying at the top. Mark says he wishes he’d stopped after Fujita, and both agree the film and documentary matter because they show the real human consequences behind the highlight reels.
- •Retirement timing: why Mark would stop after Fujita
- •The ‘switch’ and why it’s incompatible with long-term peace
- •The loneliest moments: walking to the ring and the aftermath
- •Why telling the truth publicly helps others and reframes MMA history
